Seahawks Insider

Morning links: Hawks all-time underrated, overrated players

Post by Eric Williams on July 11, 2013 at 7:30 am with 91 Comments »
July 11, 2013 7:30 am
Seattle Seahawks quarterback Matt Hasselbeck (Ted Warren/AP).
Seattle Seahawks quarterback Matt Hasselbeck (Ted Warren/AP).

NFL.com has been going team-by-team and ranking the underrated and overrated players in franchise history for each organization.

Seattle’s turn finally arrived this week, and the list turned up some interesting names.

Matt Hasselbeck, Steve Hutchinson, Joey Galloway, Leon Washington and Kam Chancellor were listed as Seattle’s underrated players.

Shawn Springs, Jerramy Stevens, Jim Zorn, Shaun Alexander and Lofa Tatupu show up on the overrated list.

For the underrated list, I would add Chris Warren, Kenny Easley, Jeff Bryant, Brandon Mebane and Fredd Young. And on the overrated list, Brian Bosworth and Aaron Curry would replace Jim Zorn and Lofa Tatupu on my list. Let me know your thoughts in the comments section.

Clare Farnsworth of Seahawks.com has an interesting profile on new Seattle defensive line coach Travis Jones.

Bob Condotta of The Seattle Times examines whether or not Bruce Irvin is reallyu going through a position change by taking snaps at SAM linebacker.

Mike Ridley of Football Outsiders notes that the Seahawks had more success last year running from one-back sets.

Mike Freeman of CBS Sports reminds us that it will be mandatory for NFL players to wear knee and thigh pads beginning this year. Players will be told to leave the field if they do not comply with the rule. Most skill position players do not wear thigh or knee pads, so you can imagine the reaction from players. Hip and butt pads remain optional.

Another New England Patriot is entangled in a legal matter, as defensive back Alfonzo Denard was arrested on suspicison of DUI, according to the Omaha World-Herald.

Gregg Rosenthal of NFL.com believes second-year pro St. Louis WR Chris Givens is capable of a 1,000-yard receiving year.

ESPN’s KC Joyner takes a closer look at the fantasy value of scrambling quarterbacks like Russell Wilson.

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Leave a comment Comments → 91
  1. #1 The Flippin Boz

  2. Dukeshire says:

    Boz was certainly over-hyped, but he actually played well when he saw the field. In that regard I could argue he was underrated.

    The only thing I disagree with Eric here is regarding Chris Warren. For those who feel Alexander (my personal #1 most overrated) ran soft and never saw Warren, you would think Alexander was Earl Campbell by comparison.

    Most underrated? I would put Dave Brown on that list along with maybe John L Williams.

  3. vichawkfan says:

    Underrated: Dave Brown, Fredd Young, Mack Strong, Brian Blades, Eugene Robinson.

    Overrated: Alexander, Curry, Michael Boulware, Hammer Hamlin.

  4. yankinta says:

    Overrated: Seneca Wallace…. people think he’s a decent backup QB just based on his athletic abilities but being a QB is mostly about reading defenses. He could not do that to save his own life. I like the dude but he was overrated.

  5. Joey Galloway underrated?! Only if you never watched him play. One of the wimpiest, most selfish players to ever don a Hawk uniform, the guy refused to go over the middle, and only ran three routes; a curl, and out, and a go route. The team was much better when he was injured and then after he was traded.

    Dave Kreig is probably the most underrated Seahawk of all time. He has HOF caliber stats, and was fourth among qb’s of his time frame as a starter in qb rating. This despite playing on a team with a tiny payroll and a run-first, conservative coach. Even his defensive teammates like Dave Wyman said he was the most competitive person they ever met, and knew that no matter how bad a game he was having, if he caught fire they could come back from any deficit. They believed he was never out of a game till the final whistle blew.

    Zorn, Alexander, Shawn Springs overrated?! Zorn did a lot with a little, and vs his peers was pretty good. Not HOF material, but a fun, tough player who made the most of his limited physical gifts and was never out of a game.

    Alexander is a popular hindsight punching bag. I hear all the time that any average back could have been MVP and put up similar numbers with that line, etc etc. Thats a bunch of crap. The guy was a special player, and defenses hated that not only did he rack up numbers vs them, they rarely got to hit him hard. They couldnt stand that.

    Yeah, his exit was embarrassing, and he always was a me-first kind of guy, always trying to turn a short run into a long TD, but he really was a special player. There never was a back that put up numbers close to Alexander that didnt have a great O-line.

    Before the injury stole his speed, Alexander made a lot of people miss and ran around them. He had many runs where he looked like Houdini, getting a lot out of not much. To give all the credit to the line is simply asinine in my opinion. And hands down, he was the greatest back Seattle has ever had. Lynch has a chance to surpass him, but hasnt yet.

    Springs was a fine player. He bulked up to try to improve his tackling, and he then lost speed and got injured. Then he seemed to lose him mental acuity as well. But he went on to be a pretty fine football player for WAS for years after he left. While he never rose to his pre-injury level, he was a very good football player.

    Tatupu was one of the greatest football players of all time, for three years, until the injuries robbed him blind. After that, he was only average at best. But make no mistake, that guy was one of the best players in football for his first three years.

    Chris Warren is perhaps the most underrated player next to Kreig.

    I agree, Curry and Bosworth should be on the overrated list.

    Fredd Young, while a great athlete, was a selfish player who freelanced so much on defense the team finally dumped his butt. That and all he cared about was money and himself. I would call him overrated, myself.

  6. vichawkfan–YEs! Ken Hamlin, waaay overrated! And I agree, Robinson, Blades, and Brown underrated as well.

    John L. Williams may be forgotten by the young folks now, but most if not all Hawkfans at the time of his career knew what a special player he was. The guy did everything right, and whats funny is he looked soft and never lifted weights, yet he was a total beast. And a nice guy.

  7. Antideluvian says:

    No way Zorn is overrated. Expansion franchises in the 70s didn’t get the advantages of more recent expansion teams. The cupboard was pretty bare then. Zorn and Largent were pretty much the only reason to watch (that and Efren Herera running or receiving on a fake field goal). Zorn kept the Seahawks exciting, and that alone means he should NOT be on the overrated list.

  8. Dukeshire says:

    You may not have been around here then, but Alexander was a personal “punching bag” of mine from the get go. I was never terribly impressed, despite the numbers. And I would be very surprised to learn any defense game planned for him. The scheme? Yes. But Alexander himself? I’d be surprised.

  9. We all knew what happened once Alexander got paid, but most overrated…I hardly think so.

    5 consecutive years of 15+ TD’s
    League MVP
    All-time Hawks rushing leader
    Single season TD holder – 28 (until LT eclipsed him the next year)

    The dude glided through life and made things look easy, but is vision was incredible and was deceptively faster than he gets credit for.

    I hate how he handled himself after he got paid, but his talent and value to the team can’t be denied.

    C’mon Duke!

    GO HAWKS!

  10. wazzulander says:

    Good call with John L, which reminds me that Mack Strong should be on the under-rated list too.

  11. vichawkfan says:

    Dave Krieg! How could I forget him and his little hands….good call STTBM.

  12. Great post STTBM (what does that stand for by the way?)

  13. madpunter88 says:

    These lists always default to recent players and known names. Including Leon Washington on the most underrated makes little sense. He was fairly one-dimensional with the Seahawks. He was great in kick returns but for only 2 years and contributed little out of the backfield.

    Hutchinson hardly deserves to be on an underrated list when there is a strong chance he’ll ultimately be a candidate for the HOF. Maybe.

    Bosworth and Curry weren’t overrated – they were over-hyped for different reasons before their career. Curry got virtually no attention nationally after his rookie season so hardly qualifies as overrated. Bosworth was actually pretty good and suffers from the memory of one game and his college over-hype combined with an injury shortened career. Seahawks fans in the 80s remember he actually was not that bad once he suited up.

    Don’t forget Deion Branch for the over-rated list. He deserves to be on the All-Time NFL Over-rated List

    For the under-rated I agree with most of the names and, particularly, Fredd Young (who caught that interception in the 1989 playoff game against Houston — I will go to my grave believing that)

  14. Arrgh.

    How can you say Shaun Alexander was overrated? You can complain all you want about his non-physical running style (and I agree with you on that), but the results cannot be denied.

  15. Its been along time since there has been a good Shaun sucks / Shaun’s great argument on the blog.

  16. blocis–there was one the other day. I stayed out of it, as Ive stated my case many times, as have others. The hindsight revisionists make me barf.

  17. joreb–STTBM stands for Slave To The Businessman, which was a reference to Josh Browns bizarre interview on leaving the Hawks, where he insisted he wasnt leaving for money, then contradicted himself and said Seattle’s cap problems werent his problem. He said he didnt have to be a slave to the businessman…And that it was about winning. Yeah, sure, buddy…thats why you went to the Rams, who sucked before and during his tenure there.

    Anyway, lacking imagination (and some brain cells) I have yet to come up with anything better, so I have kept the moniker. Thanks for the love.

    Dukeshire–You are correct, you have never been a huge fan of Alexanders, though I think he nearly won you over for a year or so there. I wasnt regular here and I used another handle, but I do remember you not being a huge fan of his. And I would definitely disagree that no defenses game-planned to stop him; they did too, such as Dallas in 2005 where they kept 10 guys in the box. And SD after he came back from his lis franc and he burned them for over 130 yards and two TD’s anyway, in perhaps his finest game. We lost anyway due to the safeties…

    madpunter–I agree with your reasoning on Bosworth; he was a pretty good player, just injured too often and then injuries wrecked his career. However, in college he was a total beast, not seen since Butkus, and thats what was expected of him in the NFL; he never approached that level of play, despite being a far better player than he was given credit for, which is why I voted him as overrated.

  18. STTBM….. I must have missed that one. I read every blog post but I often don’t dive into the comments.

    I never respected Shauns running style, but I definitely appreciate the results he got. He set a record for TDs and was MVP. Pretty tough to argue with that.

  19. Regardless, discussing/arguing stuff like this is what the offseason is for, and its fun. Keep it civil!

  20. Have watched & followed the Seahawks all the way through their history and certainly agree that Kenny Easley was underrated. Not to take anything away from Ronnie Lott, but when he and Easley were both playing, I can still remember wondering why Lott was always rated higher. But Easley’s all-out ferocious hitting ability and resulting injuries likely fore-shortened his career, etc. Also agree with Dukeshire etal about Dave Brown and John L. Williams. Brown was simply a head-screwed-on, fantastic athlete. And, not to take anything away from Mac Strong’s durable skill and leadership, but Williams was about as cleanly tough a FB as I’ve ever seen. So a lot of very good players over the years on this team never probably received the acclaim they were due. But the very best rarely play for things like that or money alone, in any case. But I’m really glad that Cortez Kennedy finally got his due recognition as an unusually accomplished player…and person.

  21. seahawk44 says:

    Many Seahawk Players have been underrated throughout the years.

    Underrated: Dave Krieg, Mack Strong, John L Williams, Rufus Porter, Robbie Tobeck, Bobby Engram, Terry Wooden, Dave Brown, Josh Brown, Brandon Mebane.

    Overrated: Deion Branch, Aaron Curry, Brian Bosworth, Rick Mirer, Grant Wistrom, Dan McGuire.

  22. seahawk44 says:

    As far as Kenny Easley goes …he was a 5-time Pro Bowler & 3-time First-Team All-Pro in his too-short career. So I don’t think that would be underrated. He was recognized for his efforts.

    And for the NFL.com list:
    Hasselbeck was not underrated…he was what he was…a good, not great qb
    Hutchinson could go there only because the franchise (Ruskell) obviously under-valued him.
    Galloway….maybe. It was fun seeing him catch those long bombs from Moon.
    Washington…ok. one of the great returners ever.
    Chancellor…..won’t be underrated after this coming season!

    The overrated list …Do not agree with Tatupu on that list at all!!
    Alexander …there is an argument to be made, but I do not agree.
    Zorn …. c’mon!
    Springs …. maybe, but not on my list.
    Stevens …. you have to be acknowledged as being good before you can be overrated!

  23. yankinta says:

    WOW, I lost a lot of RESPECT for JAWS,,, He ranked Wilson 12th, lower than Luck and CK.

    That’s a shame. I used to have a lot of respect for him but no longer. He’s buys into a the hype on CK and Luck, just like 95% of football fans.

  24. seahawk44–LOL! Good one at the end. Yah, Id vote Stevens Biggest Turd, for sure.

  25. raymaines says:

    Interesting that Robert Gallery and Zach Miller are both on the Raiders Overrated list. T. J. Hushwhatever is on the Cincinnati list as well.

    It doesn’t concern Seattle, but I think it’s funny that Bill Parcells is on both the Miami and Dallas overrated lists.

  26. RDPoulsbo says:

    Definately John L. and Bryant are underrated. I’d add Joe Nash and Norm Johnson. I’m not sure you can put Ring of Honor guys into the underrated category, so I’m not considering Easley, Krieg or Brown.

    Overrated: John Carlson, Mike Tice and Dan Doornick. I hate to mention it, but Paul Skansi as well.

  27. RDPoulsbo–Why count Skansi as overrated? Most believe he was good enough to have put up much better stats, but the Hawks under Knox rarely used three-wide sets except on third and long, and Largeant and a faster SE were the usual starting two. While hardcore fans knew how good Skansi was, the rest of the world had no clue. If anything, IMO he’s underrated.

    Carlson overrated? I can see it. Mike Tice was a good player, but certainly not elite. He was a glorified extra lineman. And he’s a grade-A douche, IMO. I still cant believe he got himself hired to high-level NFL jobs. He isnt even a good O-line coach, let alone OC or HC material. The guy just isnt bright enough.

    How can Doornink be overrated?! The guy was a backup, who had one year as a “starter” when Warner blew his knee. The job him and his teammates did that year despite none being particularly talented speaks to their dedication and grit.

    I love the story of how they beat the Raiders in the playoffs that year by running the ball right up the middle all game long. As Doornink tells it, Seattle runs the ball for three yards on a run up the middle; Howie Long, getting beaten down, looks into Doorninks eyes as he gets into his stance; “YOU &%$ers are gonna run the same damned play AGAIN, arent you?! Long says…Doornink smiles and winks at him, the ball is snapped…the same play is run again..and Doornink gains three more yards…and we won!

  28. wazzulander says:

    While never a fan of his style it was tough to argue with the results for Alexander. There was something that either Carroll or Cable recently said about Turbin mis-reading 2 plays in the Cardinals game that would have been huge gains had he hit the correct hole/made the correct cut. That illustrated to me how much of the intricate stuff we can miss as fans. It certainly wasn’t obvious to me that Turbo missed two big plays and I don’t remember anyone else here mentioning it (or the broadcasters). I have to assume that part of the reason SA had so much success is that he must have been one of the best in the league at reading his blocks and picking his lanes. That said, there isn’t much thats more insulting for a football player than to be considered “soft” which he definitely was.

  29. Dukeshire says:

    Dan Doornick overrated? That’s interesting and I happen to agree. Dr. Dan fell in the cult hero category and I think that caused many to overvalue his actual play (not that he wasn’t a fine FB, he was. But not to the degree many believed at the time.)

    How about Leonard Weaver on the overrated list? A bit of the cult hero mentality there as well (although I was guilty of that with him at the time, myself).

  30. Dukeshire says:

    STTBM – Lol. The opposing Doornick posts…

  31. RDPoulsbo says:

    As much as Mr. 3rd down and Dr. Dan were fan favorites, they really were just minor contributors in the grand scheme of things. 1984 was much more a story about the defense than it was offense. If that offense was even average at running the ball, they could have been a 1st or 2nd seed that year.

  32. Can’t believe the idiot on NFL.com wrote this: “If the great people of Seattle chose to retire Walter Jones’ jersey, they had better make sure to retire the Hutchinson jersey long before they choose to hang the No. 37 in the stands at CenturyLink Field.”

    Shaun is going in the Ring of Honor — that’s for sure. Hutchinson can try his luck in Minny.

  33. No. 12 isn’t bad for Russell Wilson. This will give him something to prove, although he ignores this stuff anyway. He’s ahead of the ROY RGIII. Only time will tell which of these QBs ends up being great long-term. Philip Rivers was once considered an elite QB. Jaws now puts him at No. 17. Josh Freeman looked good his rookie year; now he’s at NO. 21. And Cam Newton’s at No. 18.

    Chances are, only one or two of the four (RW, RG3, Kaep, Luck) will end up being all-time greats. I hope it’s RW, of course.

    By the way, you’d have a hard time convincing Bears fans that Cutler (No. 14) is almost as good as Russell Wilson. They’d love to have Wilson.

  34. yankinta says:

    Canfan, you’re probably right on 2 of the 4 young QBs to make it long term. My money is on RW and RGIII, if I had to choose TWO.

    In my opinion, there’s only one QB I’d trade RW for, and that is the whining Aaron Rodger. He still hasn’t gotten over Golden Tate’s Legitimate TD.

  35. I would day Shaun Alexander belongs on both lists. I have always thought he went from being the most underrated back to the most overrated back almost overnight. People forget he was a very good runner for some time and did not get much national credit. Then 2005 came when we had one of the best O-Lines in the history of the game, and Shaun became MVP and maybe got too much credit. Now the only thing most people remember is him getting paid and his production declined.

  36. RG3 only if he can stay healthy ……

  37. bird_spit says:

    Duke? Chris Warren over-rated? He was never considered great to begin with, but played his heart out behind a line that lacked any top 10/20 lineman. I was a Chris Warren fan..yes he would not be able to hold up in any current NFL team, but don’t hate on him. He gave plenty during the worst of the years as a hawks fan.

  38. When Hutch left, Alexander went from MVP to chump.

    I put Bobby Engram on the underrated list.

  39. Galena–It wasnt just the loss of Hutch, as Chris Gray lost more than a step, Tobeck retired, and Alexander had multiple injuries. Funny thing was, he came back from the injury still playing well, but something happened over that offseason, and when he came back he wasnt as quick.

    Duke–I never thought Warren wasnt tough, and his teammates and other players spoke well of his effort and his talent. He managed to gain 1500 yards the year we went 2-14, and sometimes completed less than 2 passes to WR’s in an ENTIRE game…everyone in the stadium knew he was getting 25 carries a game, but he got yards anyway.

    As for Doornink, fans loved him due to his effort overcoming his lack of athletic ability. I never heard anyone talk about him being a Pro Bowl caliber player, he was just a high-effort, lunch-pail kind of guy.

    I also would put Weaver on the underrated list. He was never used to his potential here in Seattle, or in Philly. His terrible knee injury cut short a very promising career. Imagine what Chip Kelly could do with that guy, had his knee not been destroyed.

    Canfan–Hutch will never be in our Ring Of Honor. He’s turd #2 behind Jerramy Stevens. And Walter Jones was the greatest offensive lineman to ever play the game. Period. And he was that good pretty much from Day One, whereas Hutch took awhile to get going, and then faded away due to injury and his fat head. Hutch, IMO, is not a HOF guy. He only played at that level for 4 years, maybe five. Not enough to get it, especially considering his lackluster play his final 3 years.

    Engram underrated? Not by me, at least…he was always one of my favorite Hawks of all-time, from day one. I still want to meet him and shake his hand…

  40. boucherm says:

    Engram was certainly under-rated on a national level, he was one of the first names I thought of as left off the list. I also strongly believe that D-Jack was underrated. I know others will disagree with this, and remember the year drops plagued him and the team, but remember he was a very productive receiver and the #1 guy before that overrated turd-burgler Deion Branch showed up.

  41. jandyhenson says:

    Michael Mcrary and Sam Adams from their time as Seahawks deserve to be on the underated list. Rick Mirer definetley deserves to be on the overrated list. Alexander overrated? No way. Between 2001-2005 he rushed for over a 100 yards and 15+ touchdowns each season. And don’t say it was because of the line because Hutch wasn’t an all-pro or pro bowler until 03. Before that the Seahawks line and offense was pretty pathetic. The way he went out sucked but the years before he was on the same level as LT.

  42. boucherm–D-Jack is one of my favorite Hawks, and yeah, I’d say he was underrated, both nationally and among Hawk fans. Lots of handwringing when we traded him, and it took five minutes before pretty much everyone began to bash on him. It happens every time a player leaves. Bad deal all the way around–I still think even with his deteriorating knee, he would have been useful for 3 more years in a Hawk uniform, and didnt we get Wrotto with the pick–a waste all the way around.

    jandy–Adams doesnt make the list because he took too many plays off–its what got him a ticket to ride. McCrary was a beast, and was even better in Balt after he left. Shame when we lost him.

  43. Dukeshire says:

    STTBM – Yes, I get he played on bad teams (although he was “only” a 1000 yard rusher on the ’92 2-14 squad. ’96 was the 1500 yard season.) And yes, I too know Flores would hand him the ball down after down. But Warren would gain nothing or lose yards for several carries / series in a row, then break a 20 yarder. His number were terribly skewed in this regard. He was relatively slow, shy in the hole, and awfully inconsistent (as I mentioned previously). The only real positive thing I’ll say about his play, that is perhaps overlooked, was his receiving. He was a capable receiver out of the backfield, to be sure.

  44. In the 2005 playoff game against the Redskins, Alexander got hurt early on and Morris came in. Both Morris and the Seahawks offense didn’t play anywhere near standards and were one Carlos Rodgers dropped Pick 6 away from possibly losing that game. Alexander came back the next week, had a huge game against the Panthers and the Seahawks Offense put up 34 points. The point here was that Morris did run behind that same OL that year and he looked nowhere near as good and the offense suffered as a result.

    I think Wilson around number 12 is a fair place for him. If the Defense could have done its job and closed road games, I feel the Seahawks would have won the Super Bowl and he would be in the Top 6. But it didn’t happen and I don’t expect Jaws to extrapolate out that wonderful 4th quarter Wilson had against the Falcons.

  45. boucherm says:

    It always bothered me we gave D-Jack away for the pick that became Mansfield Wrotto. Uggh

  46. bbnate420 says:

    STTBM, I agree with most of what you have to say about SA, but you’re wrong that nobody put up numbers close to his without a great O-line. Remember a guy named Barry Sanders? I doubt anyone here is going to argue that SA was better than Sanders. BTW, SA put up 1635 yards from scrimmage and 18 TDs in 2002 with Hutch only playing 4 games for any haters.

    I also think you underrate Galloway. Say what you want to about him not going over the middle, but he produced. With many crappy QBs at that. And he was a beast returning punts. He had the all-stars Mirer, Friesz, and Kitna very early in his career throwing to him. He did play with Moon for 24-25 games in 97-98 and had his best years here. Nobody around here talks about him being a great player, so I don’t really see how he’s overrated. He produced on par with a 1st round WR.

    John L. Williams is someone that is definitely underrated IMO. And I only watched him for a couple of years. Easley is underrated because he doesn’t get much national consideration for the HOF.

    I don’t see Tatupu or Stevens being overrated. I guess it depends on how you define it. Is it determined by draft position, fan perception, or a combination of both? I don’t think Tatupu is overrated by any measure. His body just broke down. I don’t really see Stevens as overrated because I don’t think there are a lot of people with a high opinion of his play. He was overrated for being a 1st round pick.

    As far as Hutch and SA getting into the ROH. I think SA has to make it. I don’t see how you deny him. I think you have to put Hutch in eventually, but his continued taunting of the organization years after Holmgren and Numbskull were gone irks me.

  47. Dukeshire–I checked NFL.com stats, you were right about 92 being only just 1,000 yards, but it was 1994 Warren ran for 1500, not 1996. I dont recall him being slow–he was a long strider, and I recall the announcers remarking that he moved a lost faster than it looked like due to that. I also do not recall seeing him miss holes–if he lost yards, to me it was because there was nothing there. And a lot of his runs, from what I recall, were off-G or off-c, which hardly points to him being “shy” in the hole. He was damn fine insider runner, at least from what I remember. For awhile he was the only offensive star we had.

    But I was in HS then, so it wouldnt surprise me if you were right and just noticed more than I did.

    He also was a deadbeat dad for a long time, and squandered all his money. I think he’s back in his kids lives, I thought I read that somewhere, but maybe thats just wishful thinking on my part.

  48. bbnate–Youre right. Galloway didnt have the best qb’s. Freisz was a good qb, but had a rep for being an injury-magnet, and just as he was about to take over and have his day in the sun, he got hurt for the whole year and that was that.

    Kitna was a decent qb, and I was pissed when Holmy dumped him. Kitna was hard-headed, but so was Favre; Holmy dumped him because he wasnt Holmy’s “boy”, and Holmgren always has been an egomaniac. He wanted his own handpicked guy, so he could hog a lot of the credit. That sort of worked out for him. Look how well Kitna did in relief of Romo a few years back if you dont think he was a pretty good qb, or the year he narrowly missed takign the Bungles to the playoffs (the D let him down) and then they handed the job to Palmer the next year.

    Galloway got 1,000 yards and some TD’s, but we didnt really win with him. When he got hurt and we were doing fine, and then he came back and they tried forcing the ball to him all the time due to his whining–and we lost lost lost, I knew he was a chump and not long for the team.

    I think Alexander will be in our ROH someday, and he has an outside chance at the HOF. Hutch may make the HOF, but I doubt it. And there is no way he gets in the ROH unless and until we have a new owner. I personally will barf if he gets in either.I’d put Chris Gray in our ROH before him.

  49. Dukeshire says:

    STTBM – Aside for the 1500 in ’94, this isn’t a “right / wrong” discussion; these are my opinions. I thought them of Warren at the time and I think them now, for good or ill, (and ultimately, that’s what make conversations like these fun, we’re only expressing our opinions). To me however, I look back at his numbers and see only meaningless and hollow stats.

  50. Dukeshire says:

    Who here is confusing Mo Morris with Alexander?

  51. bbnate420 says:

    Duke, it was 94 when Warren has the 1,545 yards.

    I think Darrell Jackson is a good call for the underrated list. He put up very good numbers here and stepped up in some big games. In that Redskins game that pabuwal mentioned, he had 9 catches for 143 yards and a TD. He would’ve had a TD in the SB if not for a certain call. Nobody seems to ever talk about him. He could drive you crazy with the drops. I didn’t want to trade him either, but he didn’t do much of anything after he left. You can speculate on what he would’ve done had he stayed.

  52. To those I have disagreed with on this list: no hard feelings, in my mind this has been the best discussion on the blog in ages, and Im really enjoying rehashing old players and hearing everyone’s opinions and reasoning. Its been a blast!

  53. Dukeshire–Like I said, you may indeed be right about Warren’s performance. I remember things differently, and the years kinda blend together sometimes.

    It would be fascinating to be a writer with the clout to get the teammates from back in the days of Alexander, and before that Warren, and find out what the locker room was like, how the guys got along, who was respected, etc….

    Wish I could buy one of the old beat writers like Art Thiel or Farnsworth or even that wishy-washy Steve Kelley dinner and get them to dish…but I couldnt afford a place nice enough to get them talking, even if I could get them to hang out with a goofball blog geek like me lol!

  54. bbnate420 says:

    Duke, I think pabuwal is referring to the fact that some people here think that any average back could’ve put up great numbers behind that 2005 line. He gives an example of where that didn’t happen. And there definitely are people here that have suggested that lots of RBs could’ve put up numbers behind that line. There are a number of other RBs that year that could’ve put up great numbers behind that line, but not any average RB could IMO.

    STTBM, Friesz only started 10 games in his 3 years here. He was terrible in his one start in 97 and had a QB rating 80.4 in 95 and 86.4 in 96. Good for the time, but hardly earth shattering. And he only started 9 games in those 2 years. We agree that Mirer was awful I assume. Kitna turned out to be a decent QB, but 98 was his 2nd year and he only started 1 game in 97. He started 5 games in 98 and had a QB rating of 72.3. I doubt many people would suggest he was a good QB in 98.

  55. I think Warran ran a 4.4 Forty at the Combine.

    My Morris/Alexander comparison was in response to the contingent of Seahawks fans that feel “any old RB” could have put up big numbers behind that 2005 OL (which also had Toebeck, Gray and Locklear/Womack).

  56. bbnate–Yeah, the decline of D-Jack once he left Holmy’s WCO was steep and sudden. That problematic knee really wore him down.

    He missed three games in 02, 10 games in 05, and 3 games in 06, though he was hobbled and played in many more. He was lighting it up in 05, had 482 yards in only 6 games, when he got hurt. They rushed him back and his knee went to hell.

    Yeah, he set a SB record with 5 cathes in the first quarter, then hurt his knee and drew double coverage and didnt catch another pass.

    He was still a guy who could take a hell of a hit and still hang on. In his rookie year or 03 (cant remember), he took a hell of a hit vs Dallas near the goal line. In the locker room, he went into seizures and people thought he was gonna die. I guess it scared some of his teammates really bad. After he came back from that, the drops began, often times inexplicably without being hit.

    I wish he hadnt made himself a pain in the butt after Ruskell signed Branch. He had his money up front, Branch had to wait, but I do understand his feelings of not being appreciated. Signing Branch with the not-always-that-accurate Hass at qb was dumb, as was giving Branch that huge contract.

  57. bbnate–I thought Friesz was doing a good job and getting better, and I was excited to see what he could do with a team that was also getting better, but he got hurt and they moved on. Another NFL almost-was….

    Mirer may have been awful, but Galloway was his boy, and he pretty much would look for Galloway and if he wasnt open, tuck and run. That was a major reason Mirer sucked; one read and run. But he fed Galloway the ball plenty.

    And yes, Mirer was awful.

  58. bbnate420 says:

    You’re right that Mirer would look for Galloway. They didn’t track targets in those years. It would be interesting to see how much he was targeted.

    P.S. I don’t know what being a deadbeat da has to being overrated or underrated on the football field?

  59. Dukeshire says:

    Nate – STTBM kindly corrected me already. And yes, I know what pabuwal was trying to say. My point was that simply because I (for one) believe Alexander was grossly overrated doesn’t mean that Joe Schmoe RB would have the same statistical success. And I intentionally went out of my way to make that point in as an abstract and obtuse manner as he did his.

  60. Dukeshire says:

    As far as Chris Warren’s 40 time goes, Farnsworth claims 4.38. If that’s true, he, along with Deon Butler, are two of the slowest “fast” men in league history. A guy with 4.38 speed, regardless how bad the teams he plays(ed) on are, is going to luck into a run longer than 52 yards (Warren career long). At least I would think so. In any case, again, this is just my opinion and I could certainly be wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.

  61. bbnate–I only mentioned the deadbeat dad thing because many who bashed him on blogs when that came up in the news did so based on that and not on his play.

    It would be interesting to see how many times Galloway was targeted, and his catch percentage.

  62. GeorgiaHawk says:

    This Seahawk underrated overrated list is spot on! End of debate. Lol.

  63. Galloway was a special talent. With the right QB and right system and, most importantly, right attitude, he could have been a Hall of Famer. He had Hall of Fame talent, IMO. Among the current Seahawks WRs, only one has HOF talent, Percy Harvin, but he’ll have to be far more productive over the next decade to make it. He has certainly increased his chances by “trading” Christian Ponder for Russell Wilson.

    Pabuwal, I appreciate your point about Mo Morris. I wish all the SA detractors could go and watch his first few years in the league.

  64. bbnate420 says:

    Duke, just because you think he is overrated doesn’t mean that you think any average back could’ve put up great numbers behind that 2005 O-line, but many people here have suggested as much. That doesn’t mean that you have. I don’t think pabuwal’s comment was necessarily directed at you.

    BTW, again, 1,635 yards from scrimmage for SA in 2002. Hutch was in his 2nd year and only played 4 games. Big Walt missed 2 games as well. You had guys like OG Floyd Wedderburn starting 10 games. Floyd Womack starting 10 games. OT Jerry Wunsch starting 5 games. At this isn’t necessarily directed at you, Duke.

    http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/seattle-seahawks/roster/2002

  65. freedom_X says:

    Chris Warren was probably the best athlete Seattle has ever had at running back. 6’2″, 225+, and agile enough to be an effective punt returner.

    Long runs are also an artifact of a balanced offense and good blocking from the WR’s. Frankly, if Warren was able to gain 1,000 yards and a 4.6 yd avg. per carry in 1992 (the worst overall offense in Seahawk history and one of the worst historically) that’s a huge achievement.

    It’s not cause and effect either (Warren the cause of the bad offense) – the passing game was abysmal. And it wasn’t because defenses were dropping 8 men back in coverage to counter the passing menace of Stan Gelbaugh and Kelly Stouffer.

    For sure, Warren wasn’t the toughest runner, but he didn’t slide on his buttocks to avoid a hit or constantly seek to go out of bounds. I would liken him to a lower-level Eric Dickerson in style and talent.

  66. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Spot on I say, spot on! Lol.

  67. GeorgiaHawk says:

    bbnate420-
    You’re talking about soft Alexander total yards?
    Did you ever consider, (despite who he was rushing behind) that he was doing this all against arguably the worst Division in NFL history, and one of the worst NFC conferences at the time? Just saying.

  68. GeorgiaHawk says:

    BTW- I am thrilled to have Bob Condotta doing the Seahawks.

  69. GeorgiaHawk says:

    OK, If the powers to be ever put Easley and Green in the HOF, only then would I except Alexander after them.

  70. DanielleMND says:

    “And hands down, he was the greatest back Seattle has ever had. Lynch has a chance to surpass him, but hasnt yet.”

    Alexander. The guy who routinely went out of bounds or fell down when contact was imminent, then whined when he missed the rushing title by a measly yard or so, and accused his head coach of stabbing him in the back.

  71. sluggo42 says:

    Nationally under-rated… Cortez Kennedy

    I personally thought the Boz was great. Too bad his shoulders gave way. Losing the one on one battle to Bo Jack was tough, Bo had momentum and lets face it, he was a monster himself… I don’t know that anyone could have stopped him in that situation…

  72. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Couldn’t have said it better DanielleMND.

  73. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Listen to DanielleMND more RadeOn and you will learn something about the NFL.

  74. bbnate420 says:

    Georgia, Gee, I didn’t know that SA or “soft” yards were worth less than regular yards. And the NFC West had more wins than either the AFC or NFC North divisions in 2002. The AFC had 130 wins. The NFC had 125. So what are you babbling about? Just sayin’.

  75. freedom_X says:

    If you downplay Shaun Alexander’s achievements because of the quality of the NFC West at that time, then you need to downplay the achievements of all the Seahawks at that same time. From Hasselbeck to Walter Jones to Hutchinson and so on.

    How can Alexander benefit from weak competition, but the rest of the Seahawks didn’t? The answer for me is that the competition is irrelevant. The NFL is not college football. The worst team in the NFL is the equivalent of at least a #20 team in the college polls. In other words, very respectable competition, but still probably loses 7 out of 10 times to #1.

  76. freedom_X says:

    As far as the home-run speed of Warren – it’s been a long time, but I don’t remember him being caught from behind very often. That’s the indicator of speed. Compare to Justin Forsett, whose lack of pure speed was very apparent when he got tracked down on long runs.

    And since Warren was a very credible punt returner, that speaks to his quickness. I don’t recall him being very punishing or powerful however, but he wasn’t awful either. No back with that kind of production is that weak – not even Alexander. :) It’s just really easy to remember the incidents when he did lay down.

  77. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Nate you are just taking one year. How about five?

  78. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Nate and all you Alexanderites , Watch this-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSZdntRnQVg

  79. Robbie Tobeck.. underrated center on SB line in my opinion.

  80. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Thank God we have Marshawn Lynch to help erase the memory or you no who!

  81. HonHawksLSB says:

    Somebody has to say it… Underrated Paul Skansi, dependable 3rd down receiver that constantly took big shots over the middle.

  82. Macabrevity says:

    Dukeshire said: “Boz was certainly over-hyped, but he actually played well when he saw the field. In that regard I could argue he was underrated.

    The only thing I disagree with Eric here is regarding Chris Warren. For those who feel Alexander (my personal #1 most overrated) ran soft and never saw Warren, you would think Alexander was Earl Campbell by comparison.

    Most underrated? I would put Dave Brown on that list along with maybe John L Williams.”

    Duke, so glad somebody finally said that about Boz. Overhyped? Absolutely…. but when healthy he didn’t play half-bad. Much maligned? Too much… He played hard, but his shoulders and whatever else couldn’t take the pounding.

    Totally agree with John L. being overrated. Anybody remember when John L. decided he wasn’t a FB anymore and started trying to run like Curt Warner? Slashing his way along the LoS, just a step too slow? How about lowering your shoulder guy?

    Eric, I would argue against Aaron Curry being overrated. He never did anything to make people think he could play as far as I know. Unless you’re talking pre-draft, then yes.

  83. bbnate420 says:

    Georgia, I was pointing to 2002 because some people act like he never did anything without a great line. The 2001 line wasn’t great either IMO. SA had 1,661 yards from scrimmage and 16 TDs in 2001 in 12 starts. 2003 was when they really started to come together.

    I’ve already said multiple times that I think that Beast Mode is a better RB, so I’m not sure what your point is there? It seems like some people here almost give SA zero respect. I think that’s sad. There were certainly things to not like about him, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t recognize the good things that he did for the organization. Again, I doubt that they make SB 40 without him. I don’t get why someone would discount all that he contributed simply because he didn’t look to run people over.

  84. wabubba67 says:

    Eric,

    How can Aaron Curry be overrated when everyone thought that he sucked from the beginning of his rookie season?

  85. wabubba67 says:

    For my money….John L. Williams, Jeff Bryant, Jacob Green, Dave Wyman (the linebacker in the middle that was actually competent during the Bosworth years), Blair Bush, and Curt Warner (not even mentioned EVER nationwide for how talented he once was) make the underrated list. Chuck Knox is also underrated nationally.

  86. wabubba67 says:

    Forgot…Rufus Porter too!

  87. freedom_X says:

    There was maybe one person who though Aaron Curry sucked from the beginning of his rookie season (and frankly, I don’t remember that person being around before Curry’s 2nd year.)

    Almost everyone here was totally pumped up by what Curry did in preseason and the beginning of the year. But after game 5 he tailed off, and by game 10 we were wondering what was wrong. The 1st 5 games were truly filled with promise and excitment by what Curry was doing and what he could be though. When someone doesn’t pan out, they all forget the highlights, however few those might be.

    Curt Warner didn’t get the attention he could have because of the injuries. He pretty much had 3 great years and 2-3 above average ones. Even though he had his biggest year 2 seasons after his knee injury, then came the strike and he just looked like he got old. Perhaps if had hadn’t had that injury, he’d have had another couple elite years and been more recognized. Warner did win AFC Rookie of the year though.

    Have to agree about Rufus Porter. A name that is scarcely remembered now. Wasn’t remembered then either (what I do remember is some opponent exclaiming “Who the hell is Rufus Porter?” after a game that Porter wreaked havoc in.)

  88. Dukeshire says:

    Rufus Porter… Nice. A bit forgotten now. How about Bobby Joe Edmonds, as well? Short career (3 years with ‘Hawks) but an All-Pro and multiple 1000+ kick returned in those 3 years.

  89. wabubba67 says:

    If my memory is right, Rufus Porter was an undrafted free agent (New Mexico St. ??) who made the team as a special teams stud, and became a pass rushing beast as a DE/LB hybrid. Seahawks 3-4 defense under Tom Catlin was formidable with a line of Bryant-Nash-Green and LBs Porter, Wyman, Bosworth, and Young….too bad that Bosworth’s contract upset Young to the point where he held out and demanded a trade. The Seahawks invested in the wrong LB.

    Edmunds was another great find by the McCormick/Knox regime…as was Paul Johns.

  90. wabubba67 says:

    Fredd Young….”I spell my first name with two ‘Ds’ because when I hit them, I make them stutter.”

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