Seahawks Insider

When was the last time Seahawks WR Percy Harvin felt this fast? “Before college”

Post by Gregg Bell / The News Tribune on Aug. 20, 2014 at 2:15 pm with 152 Comments »
August 20, 2014 6:29 pm

That was Percy Harvin talking about the state of the offense — “We are on schedule, for the most part” — following today’s practice at the Virginia Mason Athletic Center for Friday night’s third exhibition game against Chicago.

But that’s a mere tease to the rest of what the Seahawks’ game-breaker said today.

Harvin has looked almost supersonic at times this summer, his first practices since offseason surgery on his hip. He said earlier this month that he’s found “another gear.” It’s certainly higher than any he had last season. In 2013 he appeared in just one regular-season game, the playoff game against New Orleans (before he got KO’d from that with a concussion) and then his zooming performance in the Super Bowl.

So today I asked the sixth-year veteran from Florida when the last time was he felt this healthy, this fast.

Harvin paused for a moment to ponder that.

It’s the only time he’s been slowed this summer.

“Maybe before college,” he said.

“All the injuries I’ve had, a couple extra (months) to heal up from everything last year … everything that I had with my hip, it controlled a lot — the hamstring, the knee problems. My legs are feeling how they are supposed to feel. Very fluid. Very smooth.

“Like I said, it’s all good.”

That could be all bad for opposing defensive coordinators this season.

–Today’s practice was light, in shorts and helmets — no pads — a Friday-like practice two days before a game. Expect the starters to play into the second half in what amounts to their final “dress rehearsal” before the Sept. 4 opener against Green Bay. The Aug. 28 exhibition finale at Oakland will, as usual, probably have just cameo appearances by the starters with the rest of the Raiders game devoted to determining the final jobs before cuts to the 53-man regular-season roster are due Aug. 30.

“I believe that coach is going to want us to play though the half and probably through the third quarter, I’d assume,” quarterback Russell Wilson said. “I’m excited of getting out there and playing the first half and hopefully a little bit more and seeing how we do.”

–After practice, Lakewood’s Jermaine Kearse joined Seahawks teammates Steven Hauschka (who says he has a five handicap — ah, the life of kickers) and Cooper Helfet in a pitching-wedge competition with Seattle-area native and professional golfer Fred Couples and some guy in gray, 12th-man socks named Steve Ballmer. They took three shots each from the northwest edge of the VMAC’s fields aiming for a hole on an island green floating about 90 yards offshore. Hauschka put one on the green. Kearse and Helfet splashed all three of their tries into Lake Washington. Couples and Ballmer each put two of their three shots on — Ballmer’s third shot smashed a remote “GoPro” camera that

Jermaine Kearse, Cooper Helfet, Steve Ballmer, Fred Couples (obscured middle right by Steve Hauschka, facing) had a pitching-wedge competition after practice today. Ballmer won (Gregg Bell/Staff writer).
Jermaine Kearse, Cooper Helfet, Steve Ballmer, Fred Couples (green horizontal-striped shirt, obscured middle right by Steve Hauschka, facing) had a pitching-wedge competition after practice today. Ballmer won (Gregg Bell/Staff writer).

a team staffer had mounted into the ground a few yards in front of the shot area.

Told that camera cost $2 billion to replace, the new owner of the Los Angeles Clippers laughed and shot back, “That’s what everything costs these days.”

Couples and Ballmer went to a final-round playoff, which Ballmer won.

He isn’t sure how he beat a Senior PGA Tour star, who is back home to play in this week’s Boeing Classic at TPC Snoqualmie Ridge.

“I’m a random-number generator when it comes to golf swings,” Ballmer said.


Leave a comment Comments → 152
  1. montanamike2 says:

    Couples let Ballmer win ’cause he knows what’s good for him.

  2. SandpointHawk says:

    That’s just too cool, but I wish Ballmer would move the Clips to Seattle, just saying…

  3. RDPoulsbo says:

    Harvin is a year removed from any team really getting a look at him. There’s going to be some opposing secondaries burned early in the season.

  4. chuck_easton says:

    He can’t. Part of the purchase was also to purchase the Arena in which the team plays.

    Well, unless he wants to move that as well.

  5. Dukeshire says:

    Was Ballmer yelling uncontrollably at any point?

  6. montanamike2 says:

    I loved hearing yesterday, that Harvin was superhumanly fast over everybody not named Richardson.

  7. chuck-

    The Staples Center is where the Clippers play and it is owned and operated by the L.A. Arena Company and Anschutz Entertainment Group. Ballmer doesn’t own it. But he won’t move the team anyway, I think there was something in the deal where he agreed he wouldn’t.

  8. wazzulander says:

    STTBM you’ve repeatedly complained about Wilson’s accuracy with the long ball. Now I see you say RGIII is someone you think throws a good long ball?? The stats tell a different story.

  9. DreadHawks says:

    How can one NOT smile and lick their chops with this years team. Gotta stay healthy! Go Hawks!

  10. wazzulander–I simply meant that the ONE long ball I saw RGKnee throw in the preseason game vs the Browns was really a nice ball. Thats all. I wasnt saying anything about how his long ball completion percentage was overall the last few seasons…You misunderstood my meaning on that comment.

    Stats in a vacuum are garbage. If you look at raw numbers, RW is one of the best long-ball passers in the game. But he isnt. Many of his longer passes are late in arriving. Its arguable whether some of those are coaches to be thrown that way, as jump balls, but you can plainly see the WR having to slow down and wait for the ball, and the ball being off-target. Its more on the WR making a tough, contested catch than on RW for throwing a great ball, because many of those passes arent all that accurate.

    QB’s like Rogers, Brady, Manning, Brees, Good Philip Rivers (as opposed to Bad P. Rivers), and Andrew Luck can throw a pass 50-60 yards on a rope (without making the ball a rainbow lob) and with an accuracy that RW’s throws often lack.

    RW is on a quest to perfect his craft. He wont get there by looking simply at his completion percentage stats. He’ll get there by realizing many of his completed throws werent particularly accurate, and working his butt off to improve. Which he’s busy doing right this minute, you can bet on it.

    Now, before anyone freaks out and decides I dont think RW is awesome, or I think he stinks at the long-ball, read what I wrote again. Carefully. Nowhere did I say any of that. He’s a fine qb, I love the guy, and he’s going to be elite. He’s just not the elite deep-ball passer than so many love to paint him.

    To be even more clear, I wouldnt trade him for Luck and a first round pick–not for our team. I just think Luck and the other qb’s I mention throw the deep ball better, and more accurately, than RW. Stats be-damned, you can see it with your own eyes when a pass isnt very good but is caught anyway. Those qb’s can make throws into tighter windows farther downfield than RW can. For now.

  11. We’ll see how Percy feels–fast or otherwise–after he manages to be a factor in 19 0r 20 games this season. Lets hope he can be durable.

  12. Everything Wilson does comes with an asterisk. Everything. For some people.

  13. Wow, STTBM wrote, and I quote, “I dont think RW is awesome.” Still talking about Wilson, he wrote, “I think he stinks at the long-ball.”

    What’s with the hated for RW?

  14. Thanks for summing up STTBM’s comments OrrObb. It was to long to read and I just assumed it was RW hate. Or Cable hate. Ha!

  15. Every mistake RW makes comes with an excuse. Every one. For some people.

    The man never farts–he perfumes the air with his rear…

  16. OrrObb–You’d make a great reporter! (Trib Sportswriters not included in that).

  17. vipermandan says:

    Anyone hear anything about the rumored fight between Earl and Tharold?

  18. RDPoulsbo says:

    I get what STTBM says and I agree with his assessment. The vast majority of his long balls have come off play action with the safety biting and coming up to tackle Lynch only to realize he’s out of position and the WR is wide open. A bad ball doesn’t automatically equal an incomplete or intercepted pass either, especially on deep throws. Hit a guy like that in stride in those situations and it’s usually a TD, not a jump ball or the WR caught from behind.

    Wilson is still a young QB and just because he just won the SB doesn’t mean he’s still growing as a QB. You’re starting to see that more in other areas like knowing where his protection is and isn’t when the blitz is coming. All part of perfecting his craft that he himself is constantly talking about.

  19. WilliamPercival says:

    “It’s the only time he’s been slowed this summer.”


    Between Gregg and RW, we can stop anyone and not be stopped at the same time.

  20. I am not making excuses for Wilson’s mistakes. I think he should get credit for the records he has set and tied and the stats he has put up. And even the wins. He had to carry the offense at times.

    Only Dan Marino has thrown more TD’s in his first two seasons than Wilson, and Wilson did it with the fewest pass attempts in the league. There is no way to discount that one, I am pretty sure. Those aren’t meaningless stats.

    Wazzulanders link says Wilson is the #2 QB at throwing the long ball. That means he is good at throwing the long ball. There might be more than one QB who is better at it than him, but he is obviously good at it. Wilson is better than Manning at throwing the long ball, for example.

    Results matter. Kaepernick can throw a lazer beam compared to the more lofted passes Wilson throws. But give me Wilson anyday. He gets results. That’s what the stats say, and in Wilson’s case, the stats don’t lie.

  21. wazzulander says:

    Well, STTBM I’m glad you clarified the RGIII comment because so far that guy gets most of his passing yards from screens and swing passes. And I hate to be the one to break it to you but Manning and Brady don’t hit all their receivers in stride every time either. You claim to be analytical yet you choose to ignore data that doesn’t conform to your pre-existing opinions and claim the data is garbage. Those stats actually have quite a bit of context, I’m curious what you would think a better measure would be other than because you say so?

  22. Southendzone says:

    SO even though RW throws it deep the 7th most often of anyone, and completes the most deep passes of anyone, he was only able to achieve these stats through constant good fortune via lucky jump ball attempts because his actual deep ball isn’t thrown with much accuracy or precision.

    Hmm I’ll just go with the simplest explanation (Occam’s razor) and believe that he’s a good deep ball passer until the stats say otherwise.

  23. BigShermyWorm says:

    Statistics are misleading if not put into context. But at some point you are just ignoring quantifiable data in an attempt to justify your own opinion.

    Could Wilson improve at his deep passes? Yes. Is every deep pass a perfect dart? No. But there is no reasonable way to discard the statistics here.

    RW throws the ball 20+ yards a higher percentage of his passes than any other QB not named Brees. So it is not a insignificant sample. He has a higher accuracy on those passes, catches plus drops, than ANY other QB. He averages more yards an attempt on these throws than any other QB not named Brees. These are not just random stats in a vacuum.

    BTW, that dude Luck is 15th in accuracy and 21st in yards an attempt.

  24. RDPoulsbo says:

    Let’s not mistake critique for blind criticism and Wilson would likely agree that he has a number of things he can improve. Improved accuracy on the deep ball is just one thing he can work on I’m hiss 3rd year to add to a lot that he’s already doing well. Remember that this is his 3rd year in the league, the year most coaches will tell you should see the big leap in improvement in a QB. With that, you should expect to see Wilson greatly elevate his game this season.

  25. BigShermyWorm says:

    BTW, this is bbnate420. I am reasonably certain that Todd kept banning me when I made a new account because of a post I made about his “reporting” on Lynch. A post that was hardly out of line IMO. This seems to have stopped, so add me to the list of people here that are glad he hit the skids. If only he put the same energy into running the blog.

  26. Gregg Bell says:

    vipermandan, all: Ill get back to you on that.

  27. Singularitarian says:

    Count me in as so.eone who thinks Wilson throws a solid deep ball. He always puts it where his guy can get it, and at times he under throws wide open recievers to make sure he gets the completion. Better than over throwing him and punting. He knows this. The deep pass to Rice to beat the Pats always comes to mind when thinking of his deep accuracy. Not to mention he never has had a true deep threat reciever. I would bet he hits Richardson in stride deep this year a few times

  28. wazzulander says:

    RW will be trying to improve every aspect of his game until he retires, thats not the question. The question is does he throw a good deep ball. The answer is yes.

    Welcome back BigSherm, be careful if you start postings on the M’s board too :-)

  29. Singularitarian says:

    Where *ONLY* his guy can get it

  30. MoSeahawk12 says:

    rbuzby, wazzulander, Southendzone, BigShermyWorm great comments.
    Those pesky stats are funny like that.

  31. BigShermyWorm says:

    Thanks, wazzulander. I’m not going to fall into that trap again. That guy from the M’s blog is back on here and we have been civil.

    That’s what was confusing about being banned continuously. I could still post on the M’s blog after being blocked initially and the guy that really started it was able to post here and on the M’s blog after starting one new account. That’s what makes me think it was Todd. C’est la vie.

  32. No, Wazzulander, I dont ignore whatever doesnt fit my preconceived notions; thats what you are doing. I watched every single RW throw closely, and when I noticed his long passes werent particularly good throws, I was surprised to find how high his completion percentage for the long passes was. However, upon examining the raw stats and watching those throws, it becomes clear the stats are misleading. Is RW bad at throwing the long ball? No, certainly not–but he has A LOT of work to do there.

    Saying Wilson is number 2 in throwing long balls is not entirely true. At best its an oversimplification. He may have the second-best completion percentage, but that doesnt make him the second-best long passer any more than winning the SB made our offensive line mediocre (they werent, they were bottom-tier); they didnt suddenly grade out in the middle instead of the bottom third simply because we won it all in spite of them.

    I cant see anything wrong with critiquing his long passes–or any other part of his game. As Ive said time and again, it doesnt mean he isnt a fantastic player, because he is. Only a moron would argue that RW isnt a fantastic player, especially for a guy in the league only two years. He’s flat amazing.

    Of course the other qb’s who are elite dont hit their WR in stride every time; but they make throws that RW cant. They thread the needle into tighter windows than RW can.

    As for RW’s records, did he catch his own TD passes? Did he block the defensive line? Did he diagram the play? Did he play defense? Point is, so many want to give him sole credit for those records and successes, but they take a whole team. And besides that, I was discussing his long passes, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with any other part of his game; not his full completion percentage, not his passing yards, not his TD’s, not his fumbles, not his INT’s…Just his long passes.

    Again, its impossible to say how many of those deep throws that are jump balls that probably shouldnt have been are passes he was coached to throw that way. But those arent the only deep passes where his aim is off. Besides, I think its a copout and possibly bad for RW’s development to constantly coach him to throw jump balls; if thats what they are doing, I think it sucks. Teach him to make the throws he cant yet make; thats what coaches are for. And its not like RW has failed at anything as a qb, so why limit him?! Let him learn and grow, he can be one of the best of all time! But not if he’s coached to never make the home-run throw…

    Yes, he throws a “solid” deep throw–much of the time. But he doesnt throw a deep ball as accurately or nicely as the qb’s I mentioned who are elite. Period. Will he get there? I surely hope so, he certainly has the raw talent and the arm. But he wont if he thinks like some on this blog…he’ll just sit there believing the completion percentage stats tell the whole story and that he’s the second-best deep passer in the whole NFL…

  33. Hubrismh says:

    RW doesn’t stink at long balls, he makes sure they are caught. To hit them all in stride isn’t as easy as one would think. STTBM is correct with his assessment. But, RW will also continue to get better at leading those long balls, and I predict, with 95% accuracy! that RW has a career year with long TD strikes, especially with PRich and Harvin.

    This offense will be a serious jagger naught (sp?) possibly out scoring Denver, who will face weak team after weak team.
    It’s gunna be ugly for those who face us…

  34. Thanks MoSeahawk12

    I think the Seahawks are going to be even more motivated than ever this season. The whole team is getting “discounted” just like some people do with Wilson.

    Stuff like:
    “The Seahawks only won because they cheated by holding on every play and they got away with it. The Seahawks will have no shot this year under the new rules.
    Sherman and Thomas aren’t all that good, it’s just the “system” they play in.
    Lynch and Wilson are over rated.
    The Seahawks all take PED’s.
    The Superbowl safety was a “fluke” and it caused the Broncos to get a bad start that they couldn’t recover from.
    The Seahawks fans aren’t very loud, it’s the stadium design that makes it seem that way.” Etc etc etc.

    I think the Seahawks are going to be ticked off by all the BS people are saying, and are going to be hungrier than they were in 2013.

    Lookout NFL.

  35. PLUHawkFan says:

    Granted it’s practice and one throw, but tell me again that Russell isn’t accurate? I call this accurate.

    I realize RW doesn’t throw hard straight laser beams. Many of his passes are arcing long throws. That doesn’t mean he isn’t accurate though. In fact I’ve seen many of his passes have some amazing touch to them.

    I’m not saying he can’t improve either. I’ve seen him miss a ton as well, but he’s only been playing in NFL two years for God sakes. Yet we try to compare him to greats like Peyton and Brady who have been playing for over a decade in the League.

    I honestly think I could make an argument that RW is as good (if not better) then Brady was at same point in his career.


  36. BigShermyWorm–Welcome back!

    One thing those stats dont take into account is how many of those passes were off-target, made more difficult because they werent where they should have been, yet were still caught? The stats are incomplete without more in-depth analysis.

  37. oldtallguy says:

    Speaking of the M’s, Gregg you have a twin for that blog?

  38. PLU–Brady’s first two years in the league he made throws that only Zen can explain. RW doesnt make those throws, like the one that won the Pats first SB, the one throw a guy wrote a whole book on, because Brady couldnt possibly see that the MLB didnt do what he was supposed to…leaving the guy open; when asked how he knew what he couldnt see, Brady just said “I just knew”.

    I find it hilarious how pissed off some people get whenever anyone says anything other than “RW is perfect”. Sheesh. I guess we cant discuss anything about his game, only praise him to the skies like Baby Jesus…

  39. PLU–I never said all of his deep throws are off; just enough to where I think the completion percentage stats are misleading. You guys are acting like I said “RW sucks”…when I said and meant nothing of the kind…

  40. “One thing those stats dont take into account is how many of those passes were off-target, made more difficult because they werent where they should have been, yet were still caught?”

    You could say the same for every QB in the league. But you only say it for Wilson. His stats don’t count, but the other QB’s do.

  41. Hubris–Juggernaut.

  42. rbuzby–No, you can apply the misleading stat to other qb’s as well, of course. My point is those stats are a tool, but one you have to be careful with because their ultimate meaning isnt as cut and dried as most seem to believe.

    From what my eyes have seen, most of RW’s long passes are late, off-target, and just arent great throws. I only played WR in HS, and I was small and made up for that by being exceptionally slow, but I can tell you it SUCKS to have to wait on a ball when you’ve managed to beat the DB, then outfight him in midair for a ball that other qb’s could put on the the numbers.

    Im hopeful with the speed Seattle has at WR now, the coaches will begin teaching him to stretch the WR out, fit the ball into tight windows, and really drive that ball home rather than lob it up for a jump ball much of the time. They need to trust the WR to get open and beat the DB, rather than expecting them to be covered and just expect them to out-fight the Db for the ball.

  43. wazzulander says:

    I am the one that is ignoring data that doesn’t fit my preconceived notions? How is that possible when you haven’t even provided any stats/data for me to ignore?

  44. PLUHawkFan says:


    I hear what your saying, and i’m not even saying i don’t agree. In part I do. But in some ways we are trying to compare Apples and Oranges.

    We have to remember the System that RW plays in. Run 1st, physical, beat the crap outta your opponent style game plan. Brady plays in pass happy system.

    PC absolutely “preaches” ball control and avoiding turnovers. I think that has a PROFOUND effect on what RW throws and on his development as well.

    With the weapons RW has this season, I think we could see a change and improvement in RW’s accuracy and ball placement. I don’t see PC changing his base philosophy, but I do see RW throwing a few more times per game (and mostly shots down the field).

    Overall however Slave, I agree with your assessment especially taking stats in a vacuum. Stats alone just don’t translate well in football like they do in other sports. Mostly because SO many things factor into those stats.

    Stats have their place, and do “help” evaluating a player, but you can’t take stats alone. It just doesn’t computer in football IMHO.


  45. What about this idea that the Seahawks won’t be able to compete under the new “emphasis”? I think it’s dead-ass wrong, and the Seahawks defense is going to prove it.

    The NFL already admitted they took a 103 yard INT return away with a bad penalty call. Our guy had perfect technique. But it was just like that play where Kam was called for a penalty after obliterating Davis. The refs don’t call what they see, they just assume a penalty and throw the flag. If they do that BS in the regular season like they have said they will, it’s going to be worse than the replacement refs.

  46. I have watched plays where Wilson badly underthrows a wide open guy on a bomb (like when he had Rice wide open I think vs. the Redskins in the play-offs that should have been an easy TD) and then I’ve seen him throw absolutely perfect passes (like the 4th down bomb vs. SF in the 4th Q last year in the championship game) where the WR came down with them.

    If I’ve watched the same games the last two years that all of you have, I think you’ll agree that he’s clunked some long balls and that he’s made some great throws going deep, too.

    He may not already be the greatest QB in the history of humanity like a few already think he is, but he’s certainly a stud most of us wouldn’t trade for almost anyone either. And he’s only about to enter his third year!

  47. Southendzone says:

    When someone goes through every deep throw by every qb and categorizes them as perfect, good, OK, or poor, then presents that information as the be-all end-all of NFL deep throwiness, I’m going with the stats.

  48. Wazzylander—Not only that, but the stats you quote are from 2008-2013. How can you compare guys who didnt even play until 2012?! Youre taking a huge sample size from before some of these guys finished college! So youre taking tons more attempts for some qb’s and comparing them to a small sample size–in some cases ONE YEAR–as if its comparable?!

    Crap stats.

    Take a good look. They rank Geno Smith in the top 3. Reeaaally! Matt Schaub is sixth. Glennon seventh. Brees and especially Brady are far down the list. Brady is 20th.

    THe only fair way to compare is to compare the same years, or better yet the completion percentage over the same number of attempts.

    Try using some stats that arent total garbage next time, if you intend to base your opinion SOLELY on stats.

  49. South–Did you really take a good look at those stats?! Theyre junk!

  50. Bobbyk–That pass to Kearse was also late. SEriously. And he should have thrown it sooner, because Baldwin was open first and deeper. That was actually a pretty crappy throw; Kearse made a hell of a play, to say nothing of Baldwin recognizing who had the best shot at it and ducking out of the way….Just sayin’.

    Not going to argue that he doesnt make some really nice deep throws–thats why I think he can be so much better in that area.

  51. This isn’t a knock on Wilson, but just throwing it out there:

    The Seahawks don’t throw as much as most. When the Seahawks do throw, they throw deep a larger percentage of the time than most other teams.

    The Seahawks like to run the ball with the Beast. Teams have to stack the box vs. the Beast.

    When the Seahawks throw it deep, it’s against a defense trying to do everything it can to stop the Beast and it makes it much easier for the Seahawks to throw bombs (guys are going to be more open when there are less DBs playing deep).

    However, it’s not Wilson’s fault he plays in the system he is playing in. He’s playing the hand he’s dealt. I have no doubt Wilson could go somewhere else and air it out like Brees and have similar results in terms of throwing for a bunch of yards but he might not have that shiny ring on his finger either.

    It’s a team effort and there’s nobody it seems who cares more about his team than Wilson either.

    Granted, rings aren’t the full story either but they are fun to have! If it were everything then David Woodley was a better QB than Dan Foutes because he took his team to a Super Bowl. Or Buddy Biancalana and his lifetime batting average barely over .200 was a better Major League shortstop than Ernie Banks because his team won a World Series. Or Trent (what’s a) Dilfer winning more Super Bowls than Dan Marino.

  52. MoSeahawk12 says:

    Telling. The “stat master” only uses stats to continue to bury the Oline, yes they were statistically ranked very low. However, those stats are always presented without the results. The results are the were the forth ranked rushing team in the league and eighth in scoring. Those are the results. Those are stats. Not my opinion. Opinion and speculation is when one says their forth ranking was due to Lynch or any other thing other than results.
    Yet Wilson’s deep ball stats clearly show he is ranked second behind only Brees don’t count because those stats don’t match one’s opinion. Wilson’s stats are because Tate caught jump balls or this receiver made an adjustment. They did their job. Balls don’t arrive perfectly every time. The Oline is stuck with their stats, yet Wilson’s stats don’t count. Which one is it? Wilson doesn’t throw many deep balls a game, yet the stats, some would call them facts show a high completion percentage. Second in the NFL actually as presented above and half a dozen in agreement with those stats. Stats and opinion….very different.

    Yes, Wilson should get better here. He has multiple deep threats for the first time in his short career.
    If his long ball percentage goes down, the stats will show it and then one could say It was Tate bailing him out all along. Maybe it will be because he actually throws many more deep balls this season. We’ll know next year.

  53. Wazzu–Youre cherry picking your data. You look at those junk stats, and say “If he’s got the second highest completion percentage on long passes, then that means he’s the second-best long passer” or “that means his throws are mostly on-target and he’s a great long passer” when thats not necessarily the case.

    You cant judge a sports player based solely on stats, especially not junk ones. Take Lynch. Looking at his ypc and his total yards last season, you’d think he was a decent but not great back. But if you watch HOW he got those yards, you’d realize he’s a total stud and one of the top 3 backs in football.

    Same with RW, only in reverse; he may have that high completion percentage on deep throws, but if you really analyze those throws, you can see how much room there is for improvement.

  54. Mo–They WERE NOT the fourth ranked RUN BLOCKING line in football; those yards were far more Lynch’s doing than the lines, as evidenced by the sheer volume of yards gained after contact. Total yards gained are a poor measuring stick for offensive lines, especially since youre using yardage gained by RW When He Was Scrambling on Broken Pass Plays When the same Line COuldnt BLock ANyone!

    You are using stats used to measure an entire offense to grade a unit, yet ignoring the grading of the unit. Youre twisting stats to fit your big-picture opinion.

  55. STTBM

    I just watched it again, and the pass to Kearse in the NFC Championship game was not “late”. It was perfect.

    I would tell you to watch the play again, but you don’t have a computer. That might explain your opinions; you haven’t seen all these plays a hundred times like some of us have.

    You think RW is over rated, I think he is not. I will leave it at that. It seems we will not convince each other. Watch that play again when you can.

  56. MoSeahawk12 says:

    sorry second behind Locker

  57. oldtallguy says:

    STTBM, I agree with you about some of what you’re saying about RW and especially the throw to Baldwin. But my good do you have to repeat over and moved and over your points. Its like the OL and Cable, make your point, we get what your saying but you get so very annoying.

  58. oldtallguy says:
  59. MoSeahawk12 says:

    Stats without results lead to opinions.

  60. Mo–The fact Wilson throws deep so seldom helps him with his completion percentage. Its easier to complete 50% of 10 deep throws than 100. Which is a big reason those stats cited by Wazzulander are garbage.

    The stats I usually quote I either use as part of the analysis, or I use advanced Stats, not basic ones like total yards gained by rush, which are a lousy way to analyze an offensive line as any statistics person will tell you.

  61. MoSeahawk12 says:

    How much time to you have oldtallguy?

  62. Mo–You are claiming the results were directly caused by–and only by–the line in this case. Thats not an accurate picture. Results liked to incomplete stats are also bogus, and lead to bogus opinions.

  63. MoSeahawk12 says:

    Or the fact that he throws deep so seldom could actually hurt his stats as he has fewer chances to complete them.

  64. Slave. Please explain what in the hell you expect from this team 100% perfection at all times? Geez man. Your posts are soooooo long but you never get to any points. It’s getting annoying. I love your passion but gosh man, nothing is good enough for you. So the oline isn’t the best in the league, RW isn’t perfect, etc. etc. etc. You love pointing out everything wrong with any player or unit. What will it take for you to be Happy with this team? It’s nothing but constant negativity about certain aspects and I don’t understand. The team is amazing. Sure there’s inconsistencies but that’s life? Why constantly point them out? We know, we’re aware. We watch the same games as you. We won the Superbowl 43-8 and crushed the best offense to ever play the game and I’m 95% sure there are things you’d find wrong with it. I just don’t get it. And your 9 paragraph posts every single time and every 20 mins are becoming unbearable for me. I’m sorry for calling you out but repeating your same opinions over and over and over go beyond being discussions of the team and are starting to get annoying. I used to look forward to seeing your posts but now I’m starting to skip past them. Sorry bud. I know you’ve had a helluva year personally and I wish you and yours nothing but the best but man….just chill buddy. Chill….

  65. oldtallguy–You must have missed all the times Ive been accused of saying or thinking things I never said, or even thought, because some people–like Georgia–either have swiss cheese for memory, or else deliberately misunderstood my stated opinions. (or else they never read my comment all the way through).

    When someone lies–as Georgia has repeatedly–or accuses me of having an opinion I dont hold, Im going to have to repeat exactly where I stand on the matter.

    And if someone wants to debate, I will pretty much always go toe to toe. If like Mo you happen to be tired of the argument, then feel free to not join in.

    If you’d like to join in at any time, feel free. Im happy to discuss just about anything.

  66. MoSeahawk12 says:

    I’m not wasting anymore time on the line. Nobody wants that. I’m just amused that a certain stat was presented above regarding Wilson that is counter to your opinion and suddenly it becomes a “garbage stat.”
    Convenient don’t you agree? Of course not.

  67. oldtallguy says:

    Not enough

  68. DFloydd–ON the contrary, the fact that this team is so good is a major reason I want to discuss its finer points in such detail. I also refuse to give up an opinion until someone has debunked it.

    The line I expect to be pretty good this year. I think RW will tear the roof off the whole NFL. I dont see whats wrong with saying “Hey, despite the high completion percentage on deep throws, I noticed that many of RW’s completed long passes were pretty ugly throws—before we anoint him QB Jesus, perhaps he should improve in that area”.

    Its not bagging on the guy to say he has some weaknesses, and long passes are an area he can improve on. Its ridiculous homerism to insist otherwise.

  69. Mo–Did you even look at the link? It uses stats from 2008-2013, which heavily favors qb’s who havent played more than a year or two. Its not good data. Period.

  70. DFloydd–Because YOU have a negative reaction to anything other than “RW is the best”. I dont see it as a negative that he has a few things to work on, or a negative to discuss it. The only negative is people reacting emotionally to it, and having a freaking fit because I dared say RW isnt perfect, then use crap stats to back it up.

  71. wazzulander says:

    “You look at those junk stats, and say “If he’s got the second highest completion percentage on long passes, then that means he’s the second-best long passer” or “that means his throws are mostly on-target and he’s a great long passer” when thats not necessarily the case.”

    I never said any of those things, I said those stats don’t support your claim that Wilson is not a good deep passer and that I think he is a good deep passer.

    And what are you talking about with the Brees ranking? Brees ranks 3rd and 1st in the two categories that matter and yeah, Brady does most his damage with intermediate and short passes. Smith is obviously a sample size anomaly. And while it may not be the holy grail of statistical measures its infinity better than anything you’ve provided.

  72. MoSeahawk12 says:

    “Mo–You are claiming the results were directly caused by–and only by–the line in this case. Thats not an accurate picture. Results liked to incomplete stats are also bogus, and lead to bogus opinions.

    I’m actually not. Rushing offense is running backs, Wilson’s yards, Harvin’s rushing yards.(did he actually have any during regular season?)

    It’s the line, Lynch(huge, huge part) Wilson and the offensive unit. That’s were they ranked per stats. Not all on the Oline, just as sacks should not all be on the oline when Wilson breaks contain and runs into sacks. That’s not the lines fault.

  73. rbuzby–I dont have a computer at home, but I have one during the week. Ive seen that play countless times and I dont see it the way you do. At least a couple other people agree with me, some with you. Its a judgement call.

    I never, ever said RW is overrated. If anything, he’s underrated. But as a deep passer? Yup, overrated. He’s got work to do. Why is that such sacrilege to say?

  74. MoSeahawk12 says:

    I’m out. Back to not wasting time.

  75. PLUHawkFan says:

    Football is such a fun game. And a tough one to argue point’s with one another. As STTBM has pointed out stats in a vacuum (by themselves) are almost entirely useless in football. The problem with football stats vs. other sports is that football itself is such a “team” sport that you can ‘t look at stats, in the same way, as baseball per say.

    Let’s take completion percentage as an example with QB’s. You can’t just look at the stat and judge the QB on it. So many things factor into that stat. How good was the throw. What kind of receiver was he throwing to, (good hands or bad) how tough or good was the defense. What were the weather conditions, etc, etc.

    As such almost every stat has to be evaluated as a whole, and different people can look at the same play and same stats and draw a different conclusion, based on the scheme, game plan, conditions, etc.

    Why do you think coaches want to see game film, and they watch it over and over again to evaluate players. Why do you think different scouts often draw different conclusions about a player. Because stats in football lie!!!! There is so much you have to look at to translate though stats into reality that it isn’t even funny.

    It’s no wonder we can argue points over and over again on the blog and never come to a consensus. Our own viewpoint skews the data when we are watching. Shoot I bet even the coaches themselves argue over certain points like this.

    This conundrum is what makes football so fun for me. We can argue things all day. We’ll agree on some points and argue endlessly on others. Let’s just do it without putting down the person who disagree’s with us. Fair?


  76. MO–Ok, perhaps Ive misunderstood you a bunch of times: What I hear when you say Seattle had the fourth highest rushing yards is that by that one stat, it makes our offensive line if not the fourth-best run-blocking line, then certainly close.

    Am I wrong?

    Yet by using eyes, and advanced stats, the line’s actual performance per man per play can be analyzed, and spread out across the year, they arent close to the top-4 run blocking team.

    They are a good run-blocking line, but not top-5. With any other back, they probably wouldnt have seen a thousand yard rusher. Yet Lynch would likely run for 1k with even the Jags crappy line. He’s that good. So he skews the stats in the line’s favor.

    Admittedly, how much is up for interpretation. And Its ok if we dont see eye to eye on how much. I just wanted you to understand why I was frustrated with your constant use of “fourth most rushing yards” to grade the line by.

  77. PLU–Thank you. Excellent points. Only it gets to be no fun at all when some people attack others for not bowing to the majority opinion, be it right or wrong.

    I really enjoy discussing and even arguing football. I just wish it didnt get so personal with some people; its like Im making them doubt their religion by digging deeper.

    And almost everyone one of my admittedly too-many comments tonight have been direct responses to comments directed at me; I had no intention of posting 50k words tonight…

  78. Wazzu–The stats you linked to are skewed because they dont simply take one year for each qb, or each qb over a set number of throws. Im not a statistician, but the stats you gave are imperfect and misleading.

    I didnt mean to start a firestorm, I just wanted to discuss whey so many of RW’s deep throws appear to me to be off-target, yet he’s got such a high completion percentage.

    Very few can discuss that topic without getting angry, obviously.

  79. oldtallguy says:

    Its no fun at all having you dominate the blog in such an annoying way. You sound like my dad when he had 1 to many and before he had way too many. ANNOYING as hell. Have a great night

  80. RDPoulsbo says:

    I don’t think anyone has called Wilson overrated here. Yes, there is a system and as I said 2 years ago, it might be WCO verbage, it’s definately Erhardt-Perkins. It’s meant to draw the defense close to the LoS with a heavy dose of power running, then torch them over the top when they’re not expecting it. In the past 2 years, he’s been coached to either throw to a wide open WR or check down. That’s a huge reason for the high percentage of long throws. A lot of that has to do with the scheme, but it also has a lot to do with a 2nd year QB needing development and have the game slow down and not throwing that ball deep into tighter coverage limits the mistakes a young QB can make. Isn’t that not the critique most analysts outside Seattle make?

    At the same time, you can literally see how much more developed he is right now over the preseason just a year ago and these same analysts are seeing it too. The game is slowing down for him, recognizing blitzes better, anticipating better. So yes, now that he’s seeing the field better, it’s likely he’ll be making better deep throws into tighter coverage this coming year.

    I’m really not sure why people are overreacting to critique of his past performance. I see it as that much more reason to be excited that he should be that much better this season.

  81. You are right that the offensive line stinks (or stunk in 2013) STTBM. Without Russell Wilson and Lynch, the offense would have been in big trouble. Peyton Manning would have been killed if he played behind the Seahawks offensive line.

  82. PLUHawkFan says:

    I don’t want to start a firestorm myself, but let me bring up one possible reason STTBM. Our receivers have been called pedestrian by some (not an analysis I agree entirely with) but it has been said.

    One reason they might have been called that was because of there speed and or ability to create separation. I don’t think we have had receivers who were “great” at that. We have receivers who run decent routes, who have great hands and are unbelievably physical and will win many jump or contested balls.

    What we didn’t have (till maybe this year) is someone who could consistently create separation and/or beat the Db’s on routes?? Thus RW “possibly” couldn’t attempt to throw many receivers open, like we would like to see. Or hit a receiver is stride running down the field.

    Possible consideration in your evaluation of RW’s deep throws??????

    Something to ponder at least


  83. wazzulander says:

    Well, if you have a subscription to PFF please provide that info. fwiw, this was not cherry picked info, it was the first chart that came up when I googled nfl deep passing statistics or something like that. And who’s getting mad? nobody has even used all caps, YET.

  84. A lot of Wilson’s deep throws were on busted plays, where the WR is actually running toward the sideline, not toward the end zone. Wilson puts the ball where they can catch it based on where they are running when he throws it.

    The Seahawks rarely run a classic deep play with the WR simply running straight down the sideline. They might do that this season, with the new speed they seem to have.

    What if RW had the tall WRs that Atlanta or Chicago has? I think he would do great. Wilson is the best player on the Seattle offense, other than Lynch. Wilson is not even close to being the “weak link” in the Seahawks passing game. He is the guy that makes it work.

    Seriously, Peyton Manning, Mr Elite, would have failed miserably if he were the Seahawks QB last season. He cannot even take one step to avoid the rush. He would have gotten injured.

  85. Oldtallguy–I re-read the thread, and I agree with you: Ive been obnoxious. Take a look at it from my point of view, and you might see things a bit differently, or at least understand where Im coming from. Or not. Again, Im simply trying to respond to those who directed comments my way. Im sitting in an office hours away from my family with pretty much the worst flu of all time…probably should have just bailed awhile ago when things got edgy…Have a great night as well.

    RDPoulsbo–Excellent points. I wish we could discuss the RW deep passing thing here without it turning into a witch hunt…

    Thank you to rbuzby, Wazzulander, PLUHawk, oldtallguy, RDPoulsbo, DFloydd, and of course Bobbyk for joining the discussion and keeping it civil.

    I’ll try to not post so much for a good while, since it bothers some so much.

  86. Hubrismh says:


    Let’s use the stats of the eyeball. It’s obvious that RW isn’t a nuts on long ball passer, how many long balls does the guy have to wait for. He has a long time to wait because RW ran around for a while, giving the WRs time to get massively open. But, RW still gets the ball to them. They just don’t get to catch it in stride and waltz into the end zone.

    That is exactly what STTBM is saying, and it’s totally true.

    But, he also doesn’t over throw many of them, so they still get there. Hence the good average.

    He is improving on the long throws, his short and middle length throws are solid.

    But lashing at STTBM for stating to obvious is a little myopic.

  87. Hey Slave. Fair enough. I can agree with your logic. I don’t think I’ve ever said RW is perfect or react negatively to anyone who thinks he has areas he needs to just improve. I guess I am just satisfied with the team overall and really have no complaints or issues with anything to do with the Hawks. They stunk for so many years and now their Damn good. Probably the best team in the NFL 3 years running now with one of the best super bowl appearances in history so I guess for me in see no reason discussing the finer points and details of each position and unit on the team. They’re tough, scary and just Damn amazing at this point. I don’t care if Wilson throws the ugliest deep ball in the league. He does the right things at the right time in most situations and I’m satisfied with that. For me there isn’t much to discuss except who might make the team this year. Anyways…no hard feelings…keep on keepin on…

  88. DFloydd–Im beyond stoked with the team! I was a bit shocked at the reaction I got regarding RW’s deep passes; I wanted to discuss it because it interests me; what I saw with my eyes, watching the games and re-watching the highlights, and his ridiculously high completion percentage for deep passes, especially since the two seem to be diametrically opposed. (Ah, crap, Im thinking in big words…I need to go take my cold meds lol!).

    I didnt see my bringing it up as complaining. Perhaps I should have/could have worded it differently? Ill have to check back tomorrow. Or perhaps me bringing up any unpopular opinion will get me attacked like Frankenstein lol! Or perhaps I was being a Negative Nancy. I’ll have to take a second look tomorrow.

    Hubris–Thanks. Stats need interpretation, and when they dont line up with what the eye sees, they need more analysis.

  89. wazzulander says:

    STTBM, don’t take this the wrong way, but have you considered that because you are such a Seahawks fan (and see every RW snap) that you are judging RW under a much bigger microscope than all the other QBs in the league and perhaps see and remember all of RWs mistakes at a much greater level than the rest? I know you think a lot of us are homers just seeing what we want from our favorite players, but that can work the other way too with focusing too much on imperfections. Get well soon, man.

  90. seahawks12thman says:

    “but they make throws that RW cant.”


    Somehow I doubt there is a “throw” that RW CAN’T make. Maybe in baseball, but this is football…oh wait…yeah maybe there too…

  91. Gregg Bell says:

    I interrupt the spit-ball fight here with a couple things:

    oldtallguy: I do have a twin, but she’s an investment advisor in suburban Michigan and can’t help on the M’s blog(!)

    Here’s the deal on the fight between Earl Thomas and Tharold Simon today. It happened during the team-stretching time at the very start of practice, which is why the TV cameras got it; they are only allowed to shoot the first 15 minutes of each practice.

    It is not odd to have a scuffle in the preseason, for any team. What is odd is to have one between teammates in the same position group — defensive backs — during STRETCHING. That makes it seem like it was a carryover from a previous issue.

    The film KING-5 TV in Seattle showed Thomas shoving Simon and Simon throwing down his helmet. Assistant coach Marquand Manuel got tossed aside while interceding, then the two defensive backs were separated while still yapping at each other.

    I don’t know much more than that, but I wasn’t reporting it until the Seattle TV stations aired it, since the team restricts us from reporting specifics of what happens at each practice from now through the end of the season — unless it is addressed publicly afterward.

    Thanks for asking.

  92. I think we can all agree that Gregg nails the deep ball every time.

  93. BigShermyWorm says:

    I believe that RW has certainly thrown enough deep balls in the NFL to warrant these statistics having validity. He has thrown approx. 78 deep balls the past 2 years. For comparison, Luck has thrown approx. 97 deep balls. Yet RW’s completion percentage and yards per attempt are much better.

    STTBM certainly has the right to believe that Luck, Brady, and whoever else throws a better deep ball than RW. You’re just going to have a harder time convincing people simply with what you see rather than any objective statistics. I don’t see what you see. Especially when you say that the TD pass to Kearse in the NFC Championship was a bad throw. I can’t fathom what you’re seeing.

    I wouldn’t say that RW is automatically the best or second best deep ball thrower in the NFL simply because of these stats. But they aren’t a fluke either. You don’t luck your way into them. He is a very good deep ball passer. Better than Luck. Better than Peyton Manning at this point. Two QBs I would certainly put ahead of RW at this point are Rodgers and Brees.

  94. No part of RW game is subpar, only areas to achieve future perfection. He’s got a ton of arm strength, good enough accuracy, but he seems to need the play to breakdown before launching a deep bomb. Half of it probably does have to do with him having trouble seeing his WR’s over his OL. He’s gotten way better since his rookie season. I really feel like Wilson has never had a true #1 WR or deep threat. Rice, Tate, Baldwin are all very good #2 guys, and even Percy isn’t a true deep threat WR. Rice when healthy probably fit the mold the best, Tate was faster, but seen him out jumped several times for the football.

    Richardson is the Hawks best chance for a true deep burner this season, and he’s a rookie.

  95. montanamike2 says:

    I mowed my lawn earlier than i was supposed to be doing anything, i had surgery a few weeks back and i’m not supposed to do anything for a couple months, but my grass was getting long and the rains are coming. I had a neighbor kid cut it a few weeks ago and then my 72 year old next door neighbor starting pushing him out, he’s one of those guys who talks a lot behind your back and smiles to your face, he charges double and i can’t afford that every 5 days!I think he shoots my bunnies too, i find them often on his side of the house but in MY YARD. I decided to mow my own lawn, too bad ’cause i like the kid and his dad’s out of work temporarily. Anyways, i went to bed early, i was wiped out and sore and missed a good civil discussion last night. Slave the added stress of buying a house probably led to your flu. I look forward to visiting Kalispell next year, maybe i’ll meet more guys from the blog there. I’m still happy that you get to be with your family and will get to know home ownership. My opinion: RW throws under pressure while he’s running around and still gets the ball to his guys, dudes a playmaker! Kap can’t make that throw after a play breaks down, so accuracy isn’t really the issue. We’ll measure his long ball stats after he has an o-line that can protect him and he can sit in the pocket and pick his throws. I think everybodie’s right on this one and stats don’t tell the whole story. For my Money, Dukeshire is the most knowledgeable guy on the blog not named Gregg and even then…
    I missed what i love most about this blog last night. Thanks for the inside info on Earl and Simon Gregg, i’m sure there’s more to come on that. Now i’m up at some ungodly hour by myself.

  96. montanamike2 says:

    I miss the good stuff when we have it, i wonder how many quality bloggers we’ve lost because of the back and forth banter over trolling. I’m excited, only a few weeks before real football!

  97. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Thanks for the article Sandpoint.

    Great way to start the day.

  98. montanamike2 says:

    GeorgiaHawk i enjoy your presence on the blog, how’s the weather down south? Excited as i am?

  99. TallyHawk says:

    I don’t think RW is a great deep ball passer. he definitely has room to improve. I do feel however that he is above average. At the end of the day I don’t care about any of that. The purpose of throwing a pass is to complete it. I don’t care how that happens. I’ve watched way too much bad football from this team over the years to be overly critical, I’m still critical just not overly. I’ve waited my whole for them to reach last years heights. It was hands down the best football season ever, especially since it coincided with the season FSU had. The ride was so much fun and the best part is it’s not over. Enjoy it!!!

  100. chuck_easton says:

    Well I was just on another site I won’t mention and apparently there is no need to play the season at all this year!

    Tony Gonzalez has determined that the Broncos are going undefeated and will win the SB.

    Great, now I have waaaayyyyy more free time this fall.

  101. BigShermyWorm says:

    One of the greatest things about sports is that we don’t know how things will turn out, aside from the Yanker. Injuries will play a major role in the season as always. Fortune also shines its’ arbitrary head. I like our chances as well as any other team’s.

  102. SandpointHawk says:

    Thanks Chuck, after following this game, playing this game, and covering this damn game of football for over 50 years I can honestly say that I can use a year off. Maybe I’ll just sail around the world this year, learn to fly, go back to school, meet my family or just find a cave to crawl into. I’m unplugging the TV and computer now and starting my well deserved sabbatical…Have a great year blog mates..

  103. BigShermyWorm–You make some good, thoughtful points.

    The problem isnt that RW has thrown too few throws for analysis, but that the chart link posted above compares some qb’s on 5 years of deep throws, others on one year. Compare year to year, and then show based on first 50, 75, 100, 150, 200 deep attempts etc.

    klm could probably tell us how to build completion percentage stats to get them right.

    I do think RW is a pretty decent deep passer. I find it fascinating that to my eyes, many of RW’s deep throws dont look great, and yet his completion percentage is high. THere’s a lot of room for interpretation and interpolation there, and thats what I hoped to discuss–without being tarred and feathered. Ha! Fat chance!

    In just the one game vs Indy, Luck made several throws RW cant. Those deep passes–especially the one over Sherm and ET to Hilton–showed insane touch and arm strength RW just flat lacks. He’s got a good arm, but not a great arm. And no, IMO, he cant make all the throws guys like Rogers, Rivers, Brady, Brees, etc can make. Some he will never make, because arm strength cant be taught; but the touch passes? That he can improve, and I think he will.

    Thanks for discussing this without going on the warpath, Nate!

  104. MontanaMike2–Why are you letting the mean old fart overcharge you and mow your lawn instead of the kid? Im confused. Piss on that SOB!

    If I wasnt strapped due to saving for the move I’d come over and mow for you. Maybe I’ll come by in the next couple weeks, my wife wants to go to Bozeman before we move north anyhow, so I got an excuse! Plus I just got paid…

    My baby daughter brought home the crud from daycare, and I couldnt help but kiss her face. Now I pay lol! Woke up this morning feeling only half dead, so Im on the mend after four days in hell…

    Kaep may have a rocket arm, but he cant read a defense like RW and he lacks RW’s poise and eyes in the back of the head feel for the game. RW is a wonderful player, but he’s not yet the greatest of all time as some would have it.

  105. GeorgiaHawk says:


    This is the time of year down south that I wished for being in your part of the country.

    After about 11:am it gets hot and muggy as hell. AC is a must!

    And yes I am very excited about this upcoming season.
    I can’t wait to see Percy full time.
    Also I know it’s early but I have a feeling we could see our competition in the NFC west take a step back.
    I wouldn’t be surprised to see us with around the same record this season & the rest of the NFC West fighting for that last playoff spot.
    Chicago will be a good test for our secondary tomorrow with arguably the best set of WRs in the NFL.

    It will be a fun match.

  106. BigShermyWorm says:

    No problem, STTBM. I think I’ve been pretty civil with you in general, and you with me. For the most part. There are certainly exceptions.

    I do think you have something significant to add to the blog, even though I may frequently disagree or think you are overly critical. Which is funny. A few people in my life believe I tend to be too negative and/or critical. Yet I am somewhat different here and recognize these traits in your posts. Perhaps it says more about me than you? We often criticize others for traits we don’t like about ourselves but have failed to address.

    We’re all usually better off when we try and improve ourselves rather than criticizing others. And I am certainly not excluding myself. I may be one of the biggest offenders.

  107. BigShermyWorm says:

    STTBM, and I agree that the more deep pass attempts, the better you can judge them. I wouldn’t put Luck above RW in this area, notify Yanker, but there are at least a few QBs I would. Number one, RW limits the turnovers. That’s right up there with anything in playing QB in my book. That’s a huge reason I’d take him over Luck, Eli Manning, etc..

  108. BigShermyWorm–Ive been accused of being negative on this blog more times than I can count–usually simply because I have a differing opinion than the norm. Sometimes its been fair criticism; I tend to be a problem-solver, and so I focus on what needs improvement more than what is going right with the team. Its just how my brain works. It certainly doesnt mean Im not thrilled with the team–heck, back before Carrol (and in his first two years) our team had so many holes it was like swiss cheese–and offered many subjects to gnaw over. Now without discussing little things like RW’s deep passing, or the one major area that needs improvement (O-line) there isnt much to say except “Wow, our Seahawks are awesome! Let me count the ways…”…

    However, in my daily life I am told by those that know me–and some are quite hard on me–that Im not negative, and they laugh when I tell them some of things that are said to me on the blog. (They also laugh at me for spending so much time and effort on here lol!).

    I never meant to take the discussion so far, or for it to turn into an argument, but Im certainly not going to back down unless I feel my opinion has been negated. I wasnt baiting anyone, and like I said I tried to answer back to everyone who commented towards me; I ended up with like 50 comments on this thread, which is embarrassing–but at least it engendered a long, spirited discussion, no?!

  109. I agree, limiting turnovers–especially on this team–is huge. I wasnt saying Luck had better completion percentage on long passes–the stats prove that isnt true. He throws a good bit more long passes than RW, but completes a lower percentage. My point was he’s made some throws with a length and touch that I havent witnessed from RW.

    Luck–and the other top long passers–plays in an offense diametrically opposed to ours. He throws the ball A LOT, and is expected to put the team on his back every game, all game long, for the most part. RW is only expected to take the team on his shoulders when down by more than 3 in the fourth quarter; and his results in those situations are mixed.

    Point is, its hard to definitively say who is the best long passer, with or without stats.

    I dont like the 20 yards plus breakdown, myself; Ive always felt the long pass break should be at 30 yards. It would be interesting to see if the stats change for guys like Brady and RW with that change in the stats…

  110. Hubrismh says:

    I think the point that’s getting missed about RW’s long ball prowess is that he just isn’t making long throws that make you say wow. But rather long passes that make you say whew!

    He is a wonderful QB, no doubt. But he just doesn’t make a lot of “WOW, what a throw” passes. It’s a fine line, as chains move, and we win games. Superbowls as well.

    But, not many guys can throw those perfect balls, and, even the guys that can throw then, still make plent of crap throws too. RW doesn’t make many crap throws.

    Given a choice between the two, I’ll take RW every time

  111. BigShermyWorm says:

    “Point is, its hard to definitively say who is the best long passer, with or without stats.”

    STTBM, I’ll wholeheartedly agree with you here. There is such a degree of subjectivity to this that we all can argue for our individual QBs without any resolution.

    ” I tend to be a problem-solver, and so I focus on what needs improvement more than what is going right with the team. Its just how my brain works.”

    This is true of myself in life as well. Some people confuse realism with pessimism. Though you do come off as negative here many times. I think it would be different if you posted more about good things about the team. Just something to think about.

  112. RDPoulsbo says:

    Now that things have quieted down a little, besides the reasons I give above for why he needs to improve on his deep throws (and I believe he can and will), when you tie it into overall football strategy this team would be poised to do something special by taking more chances downfield, especially early in the game.

    The power running game is pretty established. It’s going to draw 7-8 defenders in the box, as you’d expect. Add in Harvin, who’s a lethal weapon running WCO plays, now the offense can force defenders to try to simultaneously close up the middle while defending fly sweeps, bubble screens, quick slants, etc. to Percy. That by itself would be extremely difficult to do. If they start taking more chances over the top, even if they are riskier than what they’ve been comfortable with in the past, the offense will be unstoppable. Whenever the team can jump out to an early 2 score lead with the secondary being as good as they are, it usually means the other team is going to be obliterated when they have to throw into the teeth of the defense.

  113. chuck_easton says:

    Welcome back BSW! Yes, I’m already abbreviating your nickname.

    You have been missed. I look forward to our future heated ‘discussions’ about some silly thing or another.

    Yes, they may get intense, but that’s just because of who we both are.

    I always know at the end of the day we both want the same thing and that is nothing but success for our team and another Lombardi or 5.

  114. BigShermyWorm–I think if you counted my comments up, and judged them positive/negative, the ratio would be much closer than you’d think. The thing is, I can post 5-6 comments with a positive spin, and get maybe one response if Im lucky–there’s little to discuss there. But post a comment that offers any critique of RW or the line, and the blog blows up…

    I was hoping to get discussion going, but I was unprepared for the intensity and volume of the response my comment engendered.

    The same thing happened last year after the Legion of Boom screwed the pooch in the Indy, Hou, and TB games. I noted that ET had blown his coverage deep and allowed TD passes in all three games, and the blog exploded…many proclaiming him the best S in the game (at that point, he wasnt), and pretty much calling for my head.

    Same thing happened when I noted he was missing quite a few tackles and not showing good tackling form. You’d have thought I said Jesus was a fraud…

    No matter how many times I stated that ET was one of the best FS in the game, everyone decided I hated ET and thought he sucked simply because I pointed out some recurring errors and a flaw in his otherwise excellent game.

    I bet dollars to donuts the coaches were on him about the same things. And by the end of the year, he WAS the best S in football, period. He got those issues cleaned up. Now he’s showing HOF form…

    Im actually an optimist (Ive been labeled that by professionals) who learned to be a realist because optimism (as a hawks fan, as in real life) hurts too damned much lol!

    Whats really funny is Im having to temper my excitement and expectations for the offensive line so I dont get too upset if injuries bite us or things dont work out. Im bummed we lost Bowie–I was hoping he’d lose the RT job to Britt and end up backing up Carpenter at LG. Now we dont have a backup LG worth beans, unless Lem can step up. I have zero faith in Hauptmann, from what Ive seen, he gets pushed around almost as badly as Moffitt.

    RW has made some WOW! throws, just not as many as some would have it. His pass at Carolina was amazing; it won the game. His pass to Tate in the corner of the endzone (vs Atlanta?!) was insane…

    Whats really exciting is that RW is only entering his third year; he can–and will–get BETTER! Imagine the possibilities…He sometimes waits too long to throw the ball, especially on long throws and in the red zone; I think its because he’s coached to be so careful with the football. An example of this is the Niners pass (though many disagree) where Baldwin was first into the end zone and wide open, and RW held the ball even after Kearse came open, throwing the ball not to the deepest open guy, but late to the second guy, giving the DB’s a chance to get back in the play. Another example was the play in the SB to Tate; RW waited till Tate was open to throw the ball, and in the red zone, you have to throw the WR open–if you wait till they are open to throw, the window will close, and thats exactly what happened.

    Im not pointing this out to say RW isnt awesome, but to show he does have room for improvement. Which is awesome; even if he was unable to improve one iota for the rest of his career, he would still be a great qb. But to think that he can get better is almost too good to be true, especially after suffering through 13 qb’s who sucked beyond belief between Krieg and Hasselbeck!

  115. chuck_easton says:

    I know that we will never ‘know’ what really went down, but I would love to be in the room when ET and Simon are debriefed.

    We know ET is a very vocal guy and does speak his mind. We also saw Simon’s ability to ratchet up the emotional intensity during the Broncos game.

    If I had to guess, and really this is only conjecture, the ‘kid’ got a little full of himself and big brother ET decided it was time to establish the DB pecking order (which has Simon somewhere around 8 or 9 in line).

  116. chuck_easton says:

    Membership in the LOB is not granted simply by being a DB on the Seahawks roster.

    It is earned and it must be conferred upon a worthy player.

    I’m guessing Simon took some liberties with his current status and crossed a line.

    While I never condone team mates fighting, and I would always tell my guys to keep ‘family’ business in house and out of the public eye, I could also see this as a very deliberate move on the part of ET to send a public message to the kid to respect the opportunity he has been given.

  117. montanamike2 says:

    Thanks for getting back to me Georgia, It’s turning to fall here already and i won’t have to mow much longer. The reason i let my neighbor mow was strictly neighborhood politics. We are lucky that we have to search for weaknesses on a team that was a bottom feeder just a few years ago.

  118. montanamike2 says:

    It’s hard to argue against ET being a leader on the team and keeping his juniors in line.

  119. BigShermyWorm says:

    “If I had to guess, and really this is only conjecture, the ‘kid’ got a little full of himself and big brother ET decided it was time to establish the DB pecking order (which has Simon somewhere around 8 or 9 in line).”

    Without being there, I would say that this is a pretty fair guess. Anyways, I believe they will work it out. Things generally do when people give themselves the time to cool down.

    And yes, Chuck, BSW is actually really good IMO. Big Worm is from the movie Friday and Sherm is obvious. I’ll make sure to take everything personal and insult you as much as possible~ :)

  120. BigShermyWorm says:

    We’d all do well to remember that at least most of us just want the Hawks to win. That’s what ties us together regardless of the other BS.

  121. wazzulander says:

    Hey now, Kitna and Moon gave us some pretty good years! RW will definately continue to improve and one of these years (not this one) he won’t have 3 of the best defenses in the league to go against in his own division.

    I thought Big Perm/Worm might have been a fridays reference. I also couldn’t help but think of the good days with BigSmooth draining 3s given the first 4 letters…

  122. BigShermyWorm says:

    Didn’t even think of Big Smooth, but that is good as well. That goes along with my former 420 moniker as well with his stoner eyes and demeanor.

  123. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Just before the Super Bowl last season Danny Kelly wrote a great article on Wilson & how he’s adapted so well to Carroll’s formula for success.

    It really goes without saying that all players have things to work on to get better & stay better.

    Wilson gets that as much as any player that I have followed in the NFL.
    (Separation is in the preparation)

    That’s why I don’t worry at all about players like him.
    He gets it!

    And he knows Carroll’s formula (much like Walsh’s) is a winning one.

    Wilson’s #1 priority is to play within the system & not be back there slinging it 40 times a game to please the fantasy viewers.

    He simply makes this system work despite not having all the protection & weapons that some of the other elite qbs have.

    I’m really looking forward to seeing how much better things will be for him as he continues to get better protection, weapons & experience.

  124. Ray_Maines says:

    This is pretty much a dead thread so seems like a good time to wonder where Skavage and this post disappeared to?

    AUG. 9, 2014 AT 5:58 PM
    BobbyK, this one’s for you. So write it down. You are going to be happy…The Seahawks are going to make an inner-divisional trade this coming week.

    Carp is heading to the 49ers in exchange for Boone and we will extend his contract.

    Conditional picks will be included based on the number of games each player plays this year. (To protect each team against the possible injury of either player.) I would expect the conditionals to be Seattle sends a 5th, conditional to a 4th if Carp doesn’t play 12+ games. San Fran would give Seattle a 6th, conditional to a 5th, based on Boone playing 12+ games. Historically it’s a higher injury risk for the Niners to assume, hence the additional value in their conditional.

    In additional, a Super Bowl win by either team will trigger the conditional pick to the higher round. So a SF SB win and the Hawks would get the 5th. A Seahawks repeat would mean the Niners get the 4th.

    This is on the table as I type. It’s going to happen.

    Read more here:

  125. RDPoulsbo says:

    I think it’s good to remember that this blog has long been a place where a lot of the intricacies of the game are discussed, which makes it a fairly unique place for Hawks fans. Contrast the discussions here with the ESPN comments and you’ll get the idea. For the most part, a lot of the disagreements here, aside from the Yankster, are more a difference in shades of gray than black and white.

  126. trout_hound says:

    This article on the Hawks is worth a couple of (ground) chuckles:

  127. Southendzone says:

    Need a new thread, it’s turning into Lord of the Flies in here.

  128. Wazzu–Youre right! Kitna and Moon were fun to watch! Moon was all set to be Seattle’s first 4,000 yard passer, then got hurt and missed two games and missed it by a hair…being a huge stat geek at the time (a remnant of my football card collecting days), I was PISSED lol!

    BSW–BigPerm lol! You wont mind if I call you BigPerm will ya?! I used to call my little brother (who’s bigger than me) BigPerm because he shaves his head lol! Then he’d accuse me of being on crack lol!

    RayMaines–Hahahaha! Dude must be hiding his face in shame! That was a truly hilarious comment. As if Harbarf would EVER trade with Seattle for anything above a sixth round talent….Its possible, just like its possible the Browns win a SB…just not exactly likely!

    South–Lord of the flies was last night. Piggy got eaten, today everyone seems to have returned to civilized behavior…

  129. Ray_Maines says:

    It’s 10:00 AM. Todd would have had a new collection of links up eight hours ago.

  130. Trouthound–hilarious article! The absolute worst spelling and grammar I have EVER seen lol!

    Gems like “Heres a literally thing I saw.” Whaaaa?!

    That wasnt even the best one…

  131. chuck_easton says:

    My guess is Gregg is being handcuffed by the ‘Cone of Silence’ as applied by the team.

    It’s the final walk through before tomorrow night. It’s all hush, hush and ‘for your eyes only’ at least for today.

    I expect some game day news tomorrow. And we will of course be hotly debating, discussing, dissecting, arguing, and in general acting like a bunch of raging lunatics everything about every little thing that happens tomorrow night. Good or bad.

  132. BigShermyWorm says:

    STTBM, I actually came back as BigShermyPerm before the aforementioned douche banned me again. So no, I don’t mind.

  133. trout_hound says:

    STTBM, yeah, really funny article. And he coined a great new thing – the 12LF. Got a good laugh out of that.

  134. Trout_hound–Yeah, the guy seemed to be whacked on more chemicals than Hunter S. Thompson…a Good Laugh for sure!

  135. chuck_easton says:


    It’s even better ‘trouble’ today.

    They are already having to re-sod the field after 1 concert, 1 soccer match, and one pre-season football game.

    You can look at this two ways:

    1. 1.3 Billion doesn’t buy a whole lot these days… or

    2. WiFi? Check! 49rs Museum? Check! In seat food Orders? Check! Field? Um…field? You mean they are going to be playing games here?

  136. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Chuck are you setting up the BSW name for a further abbreviated version down the road?

    Just kidding Nate.

    I miss your posts too.

    Even some of the adult rated ones.

  137. What’s up Big Perm, I mean Big Worm???

    “That’s a hundred dollars Smokey.” Playing with my money is like playing with my emotions.”

    Haha. One of the best stoner flicks ever.

  138. montanamike2 says:

    MNHawk thanks for the link. The Whiners org. is a mess and their stadium isn’t helping. They don’t have a back up QB and Kap is in danger of being creamed the way he takes off running. Glad i’m not a fan of theirs.

  139. RDPoulsbo says:

    The most hilarious comment I read about the 49ers new stadium debut was $1.3 bil spent and the home side of the scoreboard doesn’t work…

  140. Anyone else notice Kaep spilling the beans that he was hurt in two places on his foot vs Seattle in wk 2 last year? An excuse for poor play…I’d bag on him and the Niners for hiding the injury, contrary to NFL injury reporting rules, but its equally obvious Seattle skirted/broke the rules with RW’s supposed/actual shoulder injury that reportedly resulted in offseason surgery.

    Cheating of any kind pisses me off. Both teams should be fined by the league and reprimanded, but it wont happen. Goodell will bust out his dustpan and broom and get to sweeping…

  141. Never heard Wilson had surgery? What are you talking about?

  142. RDPoulsbo says:

    It might be FFL centric, but it tells you just how good the LoB is at keeping #1 WRs from producing. Something to keep in mind when people say Sherman doesn’t cover the best WR on the field or other crap like that.

  143. montanamike2 says:

    They aren’t the Whiners for nothing. The rules will keep changing until Peyton Manning gets his 2nd ring.

  144. MoSeahawk12 says:

    No report on Wilson.
    Kap is just building in excuses in case he flops in Seattle again. The dude bugs me to no end. His coach makes a statement about Kap being hurt all last season and that they didn’t want to make a big deal about it. Then why bring it up two weeks before THIS season? Now Kap, also not wanting to make a deal about it brings it up well after the fact. He talks about playing with pain and having to tough it out. Duh. Harbone and Kap a match made in d twins heaven.

  145. SandpointHawk says:

    You know those mean old Seahawks did it to me….

  146. There were reports after the season that RW had shoulder surgery in the offseason, and his sore shoulder was the reason for the mid/late third conservative shift of the offense. One of the commenters here (I forget who) insisted they had inside info and backed that up. Who knows? Its one possible explanation for a seemingly idiotic shutting down of the offense. Its also possible its as bogus as the trade of Carp for Boone….

    Mo–Kaep bugs the heck out of me as well. Yup, it smells like excuse-making to me. Both are poor losers and lousy role-models; they cant admit they got out-played and out-coached by PC and RW…

  147. reports=rumors. Sorry. Not from the usual credible sources.

  148. doubledink says:

    I bet Gregg had no idea what he was getting himself into when he was given the keys to this thing…

  149. You sound like my dad when he had 1 to many and before he had way too many. ANNOYING as hell. Have a great night .. will if you dont post

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