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Morning Links: A super book

Post by Todd Dybas / The News Tribune on Feb. 12, 2014 at 10:48 am with 131 Comments »
February 12, 2014 10:48 am

Good morning.


Seahawks COVER FINAL hi res_1

First, a little promotion.

We put together a “Super Hawks” book with our stories, photography and other info from throughout the season. Here’s what’s inside:

Packed with stunning action photography, stories and analysis from The News Tribune and The Olympian, Super Hawks: The Seattle Seahawks’ 2013 Championship Season takes fans through the Seahawks’ amazing journey, from the 29-3 blowout of the 49ers in the home opener to Marshawn Lynch’s year as an elite running back to the confetti-covered celebration in New Jersey. This commemorative edition also includes in-depth profiles of Carroll, Wilson, Lynch, Sherman and more, accompanied by vivid color photographs every step along the way.

It can be purchased at


> Peter King writes the Seahawks played hard-hitting, dominant and clean defense, showing you can still be tough within today’s new strike rules.

> Warren Moon said he hopes more gay players follow Michael Sam’s lead.

> The whirlwind for Super Bowl MVP Malcolm Smith continued Tuesday night. He was on Jimmy Kimmel Live, along with Richard Sherman.

> John Clayton talks restricted free agency and Doug Baldwin in his mailbag.

> Seth Wickersham with a nice story on Tony Gonzalez’s frustrating final season.

> Pro Football Talk says it will be a buyer’s market for free agent wide receivers.

> The Broncos extend John Elway’s contract and name him general manager.

Leave a comment Comments → 131
  1. I just bought the book for $11 from Amazon. I’d advise you guys to get this.

  2. yankinta says:

    Does anyone know what the Tender options are for Doug Baldwin,, and how much those will cost??

    I’m starting to think we could possibly sign Golden Tate to 3-4 mil a year deal….

  3. Baldwin will get the 1st round tender for right around $3m.

  4. Below are the RFA tags and amounts from 2013. The same RFA ‘tags’ will be available in 2014 for very similar dollar amounts.

    1st Round tender $2.879M
    2nd round tender $2.023M
    Original round tender $1.323M
    Right of first refusal tender $1.323M

  5. They could potentially get cheap and tender Doug at the second round level, for 2.2 million or whatever. To me, that would be a guaranteed second round pick/loss of a good player. I think teams would fight over Doug to pick him up for a second round pick. Rumors were that Indy offered us a second round pick for him already, he’s surely only improved his stock.

    WR’s take 2-3 years to get going; IMO, it would be asinine to let Baldwin go. He’s too versatile, too valuable to let go for a second round pick.

    I think Seattle tenders him at the first round level, and will either sign him longterm, or get that done after next season.

    If Im Doug, I take the tender and hit FA and drive my price up by checking out team like Indy, NE, etc who should be ready to pay him. Then I come back and give Seattle a shot to match. I think he bets on himself.

  6. While its possible that Baldwin will receive the 1st round tender as pabs suggests, IMO its more likely he will receive the 2nd round tender. The team will view the 2nd round tender as enough ‘protection’ against losing him to another team and save $800k cap space.

  7. You may be right blocis, but is it really worth it to risk losing Baldwin over 800k? I certainly dont think so.

  8. They can’t lose Baldwin. There are teams with far more cap flexibility who can screw Seattle over a mere $800K. Baldwin is still excellent value at $3m for a year. Tate would be good value there as well.

  9. I don’t want to lose Baldwin either – especially with Tate a UFA.

    I just think that the team will view the 2nd round tender as ‘enough’ protection. The question is….. would any other team really give up a 2nd round pick for Baldwin? I don’t think they would….. but you never know.

    The $800k savings is also important in terms of being able to sign Tate and/or Bennett.

  10. yankinta says:

    blocis,, I agree with you on this… it think they will/should tender him at 2nd round,, especially in a draft class with WR talent as deep as it is in May…. plus we saw how it’s a buyer’s market for free agent wide receivers this year, in that article above….

    I would not sign Tate for more than 4 mil a year,,, while I would still like us to draft a Tall WR in the first 2 rounds….

  11. The market may well be glutted with FA WR’s, but they are mostly fast guys who cant run routes–Jacoby Jones–or guys with injury history (Morgan, Manningham), or guys that just arent that good. Doug Baldwin is young and the cream of the crop by a large margin.

    Even at 3 million, he’s a bargain. Like I said, the rumors were Indy offered us a second round pick a year or two ago for Baldwin, and there were rumors other teams inquired about him. He’s gonna get signed to a higher priced offer sheet than we want to spend if we tag him at a second round level, mark my words.

  12. RDPoulsbo says:

    There’s a lot of teams that cleared off a ton of dead salary cap and ready to spend like there’s no tomorrow again. Money to lure away Baldwin won’t be the problem but they will give pause at giving up a draft pick. That’ll be more important than anything else. That said, there are a lot of quality WRs that will hit the market, so teams won’t really want to use any draft pick on Baldwin when they can just go sign someone else outright.

    It’s looking like Bennett will be gone. He’s admitted there will be no discount for Seattle, and with all those free spending teams out there, it will be incentive enough for other teams to get him away from the Hawks. Then given what he did to Manning, a team like the Raiders will have plenty of reason to pick him up with their over $60 mil projected cap space.

  13. yankinta says:

    STTBM and RDPoulsbo,, I think that if we’re able to sign Tate to less than 4 mil a year… I’d happy give up Baldwin for 2nd pick in return. :)

    In reality,, we won’t be able to keep both of these guys in the long run,, Not if we want to extend RW, RS, Earl and Okung. I was thinking I’d prefer to keep the cheaper guy of the two. So if I can get back a 2nd round pick in return,, then it’s a no-brainer for me. I’d love the senario.

    As for Bennett, if he becomes unaffordable, then that’s fine. We should be able to get back 3rd round compensatory pick since he’ll be a 1st tier FA and he should play a ton of snaps for his new team…. we can go out and sign someone like Jared Allen for cheap,, imo. FA DT/DE will want to come here to win superbowl or to prove their worth…

  14. Yeah, its starting to look like seattle will be priced out of the Bennett sweepstakes, for sure. But you never know. I believe in miracles, especially after this season!

  15. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Where would the Seahawks be now if they listened to Todd and Mel on draft day?

  16. edstang45 says:

    Thanks Pabs I just got mine..only 8 left on Amazon….Bennett was a good piece to our D-line but wouldn’t break bank on him as I believe he can be replace, although I would like him back…After this year ya gotta belive JS and PC will do the very best for this teams run for a repeat…I also think a big receiver is a important addon needed..also not worried of the 32 pick in first round as we excel in later rounds ask Sherm!!

  17. Southendzone says:

    The 2nd round tender to DB would indicate 2 things:

    1) they are willing to let him walk because it’s conceivable that some team would pay that price.

    2) They don’t think they can come to a LT deal with him. If they can’t do this, either get him a bit cheaper at 2nd round tender OR get a 2nd round pick back.

    Those wouldn’t hold true only in the case that they are dying to have DB for 2014 alone and they happy to release him.

    I think DB is awesome and I want him back probably more even Tate, but I don’t think a team will give up a 1st rounder for him.

  18. We just won the SuperBowl – I would love to keep everyone (ok, except Sweezy, Carpenter and McQuistan).

    But the fact is that we have 17 free agents – there are going to be changes.

  19. One under the radar free agent that I think is important is Haushka. Because the cost to franchise tag a kicker is relatively low, I will not be surprised to see him get franchised.

  20. jawpeace says:

    I hope JS learned from the past failures of our former GM Tim R. He tried to get cheap on Hutch and put the transition tag instead of the franchise. And we all know how that ended up. Yes Baldwin is not a HoF player. But it would be stupid to only put a second round tender on him. If I was another team I would gladly pay a second rounder for him. Only $800,000 difference between the two tenders. Look at Tate, he did not really start becoming a contributor until his third season. As STTBM said “WR’s take 2-3 years to get going; IMO, it would be asinine to let Baldwin go.”
    Baldwin lead the team in receptions his rookie year. He runs crisp routes. Understands what is developing before him and finds the seems, also has great QB awareness and makes adjustments based on what RW is doing in the pocket. Has a real solid connection with Wilson. Which can not be replaced. Look at how much Tom Brady struggled this year with out having a WR that he could count on.
    I will be real disappointed if JS does not put a first round tender on a valuable Hawk named Doug Baldwin.

  21. The 2nd round tender for 2014 is 2.124 mil. At least that’s what it says in the Clayton article. I honestly could see either tender. Baldwin is worth the 3 mil, but a 2nd could definitely be enough to scare teams off.

    Remember, Indy REPORTEDLY offered a 2nd round pick during last season. When they’d be able to keep him cheap for 2 years. That’s not the case anymore! They not only have to lose a 2nd round pick but also sign him to a long term deal that Seattle is unwilling to match. It costs a lot more now that it would’ve earlier.

  22. I love the guy and want him to be a Seahawk but reality is that he is a 5’10” receiver who caught 50 passes for 778 yards in 2013 and caught 29 passes for 366 yards in 2012.

    Its highly unlikely that a team would be willing to sign Baldwin to a $3M+ / year deal AND give up a 2nd round pick to Seattle.

  23. Good point about Jared Allen – will he go ring chasing for $5m?

  24. slicktoxic says:

    Here’s my scenario….
    I’d love to have the whole team back…..ain’t gonna happen.
    So you have to work all options to field the best possible team to repeat. Even though they’re in perennial compete mode…..their perfect time is right now.
    You know that Tate and Bennett’s comments about taking the home team discount soon after the Super Bowl, were pure emotion, and pre having their agents tell them to stop saying those things.

    Almost everyone on this team deserves a raise, and they need to decide who to cut, and who to keep. Not all decisions will be theirs. If Tate and Bennett want BIG money….they’re probably going to get it somewhere else. If those two leave, then they will likely be able to keep the rest of the team intact….assuming they cut certain guys….Rice, Clemons….restructure those that might allow restructuring…Miller, Bryant, Giacomini…..extending/restructuring…..Okung….and then they can decide to extend a few deserved players….Sherm, Thomas, and maybe KJ, Maxwell and others….and then still have room to re-sign….Baldwin, Haushka….and even sign a few key FA…like a G, T, and a DE or two.

    And of course I always look at the unlikely scenarios, that would be great for our team, but so unlikely to happen. Given that we seem to live in the 3rd round and later…..if there was ANY chance to make a trade with HOUSTON for their 1st overall pick….give them our 1st and 2nd this year, and our 1st and 2nd next year (or something along those lines), pick up Clowney in the draft….and take care of our pass rushing needs without having to pay $9 mill to Clem, $9 mill to Bennett….and we could probably still extend Avril.

    Whatever scenario takes place…..some of us are gonna be pissed….but in order to keep young, competitive and hungry, some seriously tough decisions are going to be made….and based on this year, we HAVE to trust the front office will make the best possible moves available to them.

  25. CDHawkFan says:

    Lets all remember what PC and JS have done in the past draft/trades/FA etc. This time last year we were hoping for 1 of these guys (Bennett/Avril) and they got both, then they got Harvin, and a throw in Winfield.

    Whatever happens I bet no one on this blog will get it right. They have surprised us in the past, no reason to think they are going to ‘lose it’ and start thinking like us.

  26. montanamike2 says:

    I think blocis is right, i think we franchise the kicker. I also would put a first round tender on DB.

  27. chuck_easton says:

    Remember guys, if Seattle puts a 2nd round tender on Baldwin it is a guaranteed 2.214 million payday for 2014.

    After the team puts the tender on the player any one of the following can happen:

    1. The player thinks 2.124 million for one season (when he barely made 600K this year) is a great deal and he signs the tender immediately. He now plays for that amount.


    2. The player chooses not to sign the tender and goes looking for other teams that are willing to sign him to an ‘offer sheet’. The team can’t sign him, they have to give an offer sheet.

    If the player takes option 2 the following happens.

    1. No team makes an official offer. Last year was one of the few times in several years I recall a team giving an offer sheet to an RFA which was immediately matched by that player’s team.

    2. The player gets an offer sheet. Team then has 7 business days to decide if they want to match the offer or they want the draft pick.

    So, Baldwin is tendered at 2nd round. Any team that wants to sign him also has to give up a 2nd round pick IF Seattle decides the money is too rich for their liking.

    My bet is either a very cap friendly LTD is completed, or Baldwin will opt to sign the tender and play out next season before going UFA.

  28. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Totally agree CDHawkFan & montanamike2.

  29. Allen cant play DT, nor stuff the run like Bennett. He’s a different player. He might be a cheaper alternative to Clemons, but not sure if he can play Leo either, and we already have a dedicated LDE hand on ground pass rusher in Avril.

  30. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Why not just sign Baldwin to a reasonable long term contract this season so we won’t be in a position to lose him next season like we are now with Bennett.

  31. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Did the Bucs get a comp pick last season when Bennett signed with the Seahawks?
    If so what was the round and what kind of comp pick do you expect the Seahawks to get if they don’t sign Bennett this season?

  32. Hopefully thats what happens Georgia. But if I were Doug, I’d want more money than Seattle will likely offer in a longterm deal, and I’d take the one year tender, bet on myself, and hit free agency free and clear with one more year to show the league what I can do. Thats what I think will happen.

    Seattle may offer him a longterm deal, but it probably wont be what he’s looking for and so they will have to tender him.

    Its really not in Baldwins best interest to sign a deal now.

  33. Ewalters7354 says:

    Golden Tate is worth about 4-5mil a year in my books.Yes he’s a good player SOMETIMES but he is as inconsistent as can be.He also makes bonehead decisions fielding punts.He’s good,but if he’s seeking to be overpaid I think he walks.Seriously,do you think Tate can’t be replaced in free agency or draft?I just think Harvin makes Tate expendable.

    Bennett is an absolute weapon on the d-line.Dude gets after the passer and can also be disruptive against the run.But if he’s looking to break the bank,I think he too walks.And looking at Jordan Hill in his 2games(1.5 sacks ) you have to feel good about that.And he’s cheap.

    Either way the Hawks are winning the Super Bowl next year if they remain healthy.Pete Carroll just gets it!

  34. Southendzone says:

    Blocis, your reality of a 5’10 receiver with 778 yards in 2013 could just as easily be represented this way:

    Contributed 23% of total receiving 1st downs (2nd only to Tate)
    Contributed 22% of total receiving yards for (2nd only to Tate)
    Did all the above on only 75% of the targets that Tate got.

    If you replace his targets with Tates, and keep DB’s catch/target percentage and his YPC average, he pr-rates out to 67 catches for 1047 yards.

    On top of this is the reality of anyone that watched all 19 games of just how clutch DB is. I can think of 3 games off the top of my head that we don’t win w/o some INCREDIBLE performances by DB. Carolina, Houston, and SF playoff game.

    The guy flat out belongs here.

  35. How much is Tate worth? Danny Amendola last offseason– 5 years, $28.5 million , $10 million to sign with Patriots– Brian Hartline Miami Dolphins–5 years $31 million, $12.5 million to sign.

    Tate returns punts. Tate doesn’t get hurt. How many games has Tate missed due to injury when compared to Harvin, Rice, or Baldwin?

    Also– its nice to think they can just “restructure” a contract. But you can’t ask a guy to restructure unless you are willing to cut him. Are you willing to cut Bryant or Miller? if so, ask them to restructure. If not, you are stuck with their contract.

  36. yankinta says:

    GeorgiaHawk,, Bennett did not net Bucs a comp pick because he did not sign for Big Money. That’s what I mean by 1st Tier Free Agents….

    I seriously doubt we franchise the kicker and I also seriously doubt we tender 1st for Baldwin. I’d be happy we can get 2nd pick for Baldwin in May,, assuming we can sign Tate for 4 mil a year…..

  37. Southendzone….. we all love DB and want him to stay. But I think you are looking at him with Seahawk blue sunglasses on – the rest of the league will look at his 2013 and 2012 numbers and his 5’10” and say ‘a 2nd round draft pick and $3M+ per year contract is too much’. Thats why a 2nd round tender will be enough to keep him a Seahawk.

    And if we chose to use a 1st round tender on him I wouldn’t mind that abit – I just don’t think thats what the Seahawks will do.

  38. I think franchising the Haushchka is almost a no brainer. He had such a good year that he is the best young FA kicker available – this makes his price high despite being a likely target for a long term contract somewhere.

  39. CDHawkFan says:

    Mo, that is great.

    In talking to a 9er buddy this week, he said he doesn’t think San Fran can break through and take back the NFC West any time soon. Hawks are a bit younger, better, added more big game talent with Harvin and playing in Seattle is too much of an advantage.

    Must suck to basically write off your team for the next 10 – 15 years, especially when they were so close.

    OMG I am glad we final have 1 Lombardi.

    A side note, are teams in the NFC West (AZ and SF) going to have to have 2 roster spots for kickers? With T Austin and P Harvin returning kicks, I think you are going to want to make sure your guy can kick it out of the endzone. Not sure a normal FG guy can consistently kick it out.

  40. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Thanks Yankinta.
    So we could be looking at a possible 3rd round comp pick for Bennett in 2015 if he signs a big contract with another team?

    Projected 2014 comp picks-

  41. WilliamPercival says:

    I’m assuming Michael Bennett is a DE, but take a look at what price diff is btwn DT/DE for F Tag:

    Defensive End $11,175,000
    Defensive Tackle $8,450,000

    How is this determined? Is it based on snap count in year preceding the Tag?

    $2.7mil is a pretty penny.

    As for DB, there’s no doubt the dude is a valuable piece now and tomorrow, but I have a strong feeling the Hawks don’t go over the 2nd Rd tender for him.

  42. Southendzone says:

    I am looking at DB through my Blue&Green glasses, but nonetheless, he put up good numbers on the most run oriented team in the league. a 750 yard season with the Hawks translates to probably 1,200 yards if he were on the Pats or Broncos,

    Does the scheme the Hawks run dictate how good of a WR he is? Nope, he is the same guy who runs good routes, has good hands, has quick moves. If you want to see 2 examples of nice plays, look at these:

    1) Kearse TD catch in SF playoff game, look at the way he adjusts when he sees Kearse has a play on the ball, he bails out perfectly when he’s originally on a course that would run into him. Very quick thinking and reacting.

    2) His TD in the Superbowl. His 1st move is OK to dodge 1 tackler, but then after that, he instantly puts a sweet duck move on the next guy. Here again you see the shifty, athletic quickness that DB brings to the game.

    Saying he’s just a 750 yard guy really sells him short, in his value as a WR in general, and even moreso in his value to this team.

  43. chuck_easton says:

    If it had to come down to Tate OR Baldwin, I’m in the Baldwin camp. Cheaper and more reliable on 3rd down.

  44. EWalters–Look up Golden Tates game by game stats and compare to Baldwins:

    Tate: Baldwin:
    Game Catches Yards Td Catches Yards Td

    1 4 51 7 91
    2 1 19 1 51
    3 5 88 1 35 1
    4 3 17 3 39
    5 5 61 1 5 80
    6 5 33 4 48
    7 3 77 1 16
    8 4 93 2 1 12
    9 5 29 6 75 1
    10 6 106 1 5 76
    11 1 26 2 63 1
    12 4 45 4 77 1
    13 6 65 3 36
    14 2 25 6 71
    15 2 34 1 8 1
    16 8 129 1 0 0

    They both played well, but it would appear Tate was the more consistent producer–Baldwin had some big games, but also had a game with no catch, and 5 games with only 1 catch, while Tate had a catch in every game, and had only 1 catch in two games. Tate had 3 or more catches in 12 of 16 games, while Baldwin had 3 or more catches in only 9 games.

    One should go deeper before making a thorough judgement, like finding the number of first downs each gained, their percentage of first downs per catch, the percentage of catches and yards and first downs they had based on their teams total firs downs catches etc…I dont know where to find those.

    But from what I saw this year, and the stats Ive found, you cant really make a case for Baldwin being more dependable or steady than Tate. Plus, Baldwin dropped three passes in a row vs Indy in his first start, and Tate only dropped three all year long.

  45. eh, sorry about the stats getting eaten by the browser or whatever…damn, took me awhile to get them right and now it looks like garbage. Sigh…

  46. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Doug Baldwin (imo) is our most valuable WR for what he is paid.
    He not only is a clutch WR that has been consistent throughout his career, but he is much more than that. He is a team leader with a great work ethic. And he has that chip on his shoulder that no other Seahawks WR has.

    Besides, just for this reason we can’t afford to lose him, He is a 49er killer big time!!!

    The FO would be foolish to give him a 2nd round tender. That would be an insult and they would certainly lose Baldwin after this year if they do that imo.
    Time to lock him up long term.

  47. Southendzone says:

    STT, I’ve found it’s nearly impossible to paste a table to TNT blog. The best I’ve come was using a string of . to create the space you expect between your columns.

    As for those stats you don’t know where to get, they are simple to grab straight off espn stats site, dump in in excel and do simple division. Since we are just talking Tate/DB right now:

    1st down % per reception (total 1d / total rec)
    Tate: 64%
    DB: 72%

    that’s the same way I got the stats I posted above. DB is barely under Tate’s production in terms of contribution to team’s totals, and he did it on markedly fewer targets.

    Not to mention these stats don’t even include 2013 post season, so you’re excluding a monster game by DB vs San-Fran. I bet you add in the postseason, he is darn close to even with Tate in total yards.

  48. Southendzone says:

    Ok since I mentioned it, I looked it up. Combined 2013 reg season yardage with the postseason added in:

    Tate: 959
    DB: 980

    So there you go.

  49. Good job Southendzone!

    Tate was shut down in the playoffs, stats-wise. He did get open a bunch of times vs the Niners, but RW never saw him. I was screaming bloody murder! He was open for deep TD’s two plays in a row in the first half, and I swear I almost lost my mind.

    I think both Baldwin and Tate played well in the playoffs, Tate just drew all the attention away from Baldwin, allowing him to make plays. And Im not saying that just because I like Tate–I like Baldwin too! Tate was drawing the safety deep on just about every play made by Kearse or Baldwin. They woudlnt have done it without him!

    But yeah, its pretty cool to see Baldwin converting 70+% of his catches to first downs! The guy is the new Bobby Engram!

  50. GeorgiaHawk says:

    “Tate was shut down in the playoffs, stats-wise. He did get open a bunch of times vs the Niners, but RW never saw him. I was screaming bloody murder! He was open for deep TD’s two plays in a row in the first half, and I swear I almost lost my mind.”

    STTBM- What is your secret for seeing the whole field from a TV view of the games?

    I don’t have access to the coaches tape of games however it’s hard for me to see as much as you claim to have seen simply by watching the games on TV.

  51. Golden Tate showed up against the Rams and Jags this year (3 games, 300 yards) but disappeared playing most other opponents (16 games, 650).

    He’s kind of like Darryl Tapp and Josh Wilson, 2 players who only showed up against the Rams. I remember how crazy this board got when Carroll dumped those 2 “on the cheap.”

    Would anyone be surprised if Danny Amendola gets squeezed by the Pats this year?

  52. If the team is smart we sign tate to a 4-5 million 4 yr deal and DB to a 3-4 million 4 yr deal. Its not either or as we can have both and PH too, but Rice has gotta drop to 1-2 million plus incentive deal to do it.

  53. The team has Scruggs, Hill, Monsta, and that other DE who we carried but never played last yr all added into the DL mix. Mebane, Bryant, Clemons under contract to make it 7 even without Bennett, McDaniel, and McDonald. No need to draft DL, but I think the team has to make choice to sign Bennett and let McDaniel and McDonald go, or keep the two and let Bennett go. But if team is determined to keep Bennett, Franchise him as a Tackle since he had more snaps there. Just over 8 million will keep him from getting into ridiculous bidding war. It also puts him at a similar level to both Bryant and Clemons and above Avrill who takes less snaps. Still Bryant no matter how good against the run must reduce his pay as you can’t pay 8 million to one who plays 1/3 of the time. McDaniel or McDonald may be cheaper replacements.

  54. Now is the time to extend Maxwell at say 2-3 million for 4 years before he really breaks out. Sjerman should be extended first as Thomas will be cheaper and has received much better comp for many yrs as 1st rd selection and Sherman hasn’t and will cost more as time goes on.

  55. vichawkfan says:

    Reading teams needs and targets…..Packers will likely make a stab at Bennett. Coils see that happening for 8-9 mill per.

  56. Georgia–If you watch the game replays they showed, you can see Tate wide open two plays in a row, once standing and turning in the endzone; you dont need Coaches film to see it. I guess you just missed it. I was watching Tate, wondering if he was getting double covered every play–he wasnt, but RW never saw him, a combo of the line not blocking and RW just being overly cautious.

    Pabs–comparing Tate to Tapp and Wilson is just wrong. He’s a far better player than either of those two, and you know it; youre just trying to get me going.

    If you bothered to look at his game by game stats that I posted, you’d see he showed up vs quite a few other teams as well. He had more big games than Baldwin, for instance.

    I guess you expect a 100 yard game in order to call that ‘Showing Up’? Well, then I guess Baldwin never showed up all year, because he never had 100 yards in a game. Neither did Kearse. Neither did Harvin the wonder boy.

  57. Georgia–You can also see Tate head deep, and the safety backpedal towards his side before the camera angle homes in on the qb and cuts it off, so its pretty apparent he was clearing out the underneath routes a lot of the time. Its Martyball, which is all Carrol ran after the first NO game. I cant complain, because it worked, but it sure is boring to watch, and hard on WR’s stats.

  58. HawkfaninMT says:

    Another thought a possible reason Tates production not matching his alleged skill level…

    Does he tend to line up to the formations right or left? Defenses were trying to funnel Wilson to his left on scramble plays. If Tate routinely ran his routes on the right side, or with movement towards the right side of the field, it would be awfully hard RW to consistently see him and get the ball to him.

    I don’t have a fog in this fight, just a thought I had. I wNt DB here long term, and Tate as well. But I think Tate’s skills will get paid for on the market at a higher rate than Sea can afford. Teams like the Raiders Lions browns Texans or Redskins have some money to spend and could use a guy like Tate.

  59. Macabrevity says:

    We have to assume Harvin will be out some games next year, so going thin at WR would not be smart… still, we have tons of options. I like Tate quite a bit myself, he has that same toughness that Beast and LoB bring to the table game in and game out. If Rice comes back cheap (which I doubt he will) losing Baldwin wouldn’t hurt as much. Ideally we keep Tate and Doug, but I don’t see it happening thanks to PH’s contract.

    As for the D-line, Bennett is an ice cold stud, but we’re pretty deep in that department, can’t see us getting into any kind of bidding war for his services. He’ll be missed, but we should be able to get good production from other bodies. Ideally though, (not gonna happen, but here goes) Red gets a new deal comparable with his productivity and we use that money to keep Bennett. I love Red but let’s face it, he’s the D-line version of a blocking TE.

  60. I think Tate will leave for a really nice contract. I just think too many here undervalue his contributions to the team. Whats funny is they overvalue DB as well, and their stats are pretty similar. Tate caught more passes inside five yards, as Seattle knows he’s a bad man with the ball in his hands. He turned quite a few short passes/bubbly screens into decent gains.

    I think its pretty awesome he leads the league by a huge margin in tackles broken per reception, at something like one broken tackle every 2.8 catches. Harvin is second with a broken tackle every 4.7 catches. Thats a huge margin!

  61. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Another thing I like about Baldwin is the chemistry,(unlike any other WR we got) with Wilson when the play breaks down.

  62. CDHawkFan says:

    Slave, my guess is that people are piling on Tate recently because it gets you going. I think they are doing this because of your opinion and constant rants on RW this past year.

    You said you were free to have these opinions of RW because you felt a lot of us had rose tinted glasses, etc and someone had to point this out. Well I think people are trying to point out that you have the same for Tate and if you couldn’t let people stand up for RW as you showed with your multiple daily messages about how bad he was playing, why should they let you stand up for Tate.

    This is part of your message from Feb 11th 2 pm,

    And Stevos, its nothing personal. I vehemently disagree with your take on Tate; hell, I cant even tell where youre coming from. But I dont mind discussing it, its fun, and I generally enjoy your contributions to this blog even the ones I totally disagree with.
    I know, it probably doesnt come across that way, but thats how I genuinely feel.
    I think Tate has earned more respect and love than the fans are giving him, and it ticks me off. Pardon my freakout.

    For some of us, you could have exchange the name Tate with Russell Wilson in the sentence above a few months ago back to you. People were pissed, did we agree with you about his dip in play, YES, did we need to hear about it 4 times a day, NO. Not sure why you didn’t use the same understanding/defensive style you have for Tate when considering RW play earlier this year. I mean you can pick the stats anyway you want to explain RW play as you are doing with Tate.

    Again, some probably agree with you, who wouldn’t want to have Tate, but I think some are going to extra mile in a ”how do you like me dumping on your player ” kind of way.

  63. HawkfaninMT–I never thought of that. Tate plays SE much of the time, though they have used him in the slot in 4 and 5 WR sets. He plays on both sides of the field, but vs the Niners when he got open deep on consecutive plays he was lined up wide left, and RW was forced that way and had little time to find him.

  64. CDHawkfan-_The difference is that I was critiquing specific plays (and cited specific examples) where RW flat missed on throws, or reads, and those who disagreed couldnt dispute the facts. They just used broad-based arguments that proved nothing. They brought no proof at all much of the time.

    I used stats and explained my interpretation and analysis of those stats, and how I made my conclusions. And I even posted links from National Media Analysts who agreed with me–but no one even commented on those articles, because it wasnt in line with their pre-formed opinion. And few offered any rebuttal with facts or examples or stats. And even when they did produce stats, there was little or no analysis of those stats. There was an awful lot of “Well RW wins games, so he’s the best qb ever” as an argument. Sorry, fail….

    There are several reasons why I made multiple comments about the subject. Its a subject that interests me. There wasnt a lot else I felt like talking about. And I often felt compelled to respond to those who disagreed with me who failed to provide logical rebuttals or in some cases used factually incorrect data to support their opinion/rebut mine. Im going to respond to that sort of stuff every time.

    And if you dont want to read my comments, or dont like one of them, then dont read it or comment. You dont have to join in the discussion on any topic youre not interested in. Plenty of discussions happen on here that I find distasteful, boring, and/or stupid, but I dont jump all over people for daring to comment on them, nor do I try to tell people what they can/cant talk about, as long as its within blog rules.

    Its the same with Tate; if people are going to bash the kid or downplay his contributions to the team, Im going to have something to say about it, because I feel thats wrong and unfair and inaccurate.

    And yes, I would say folks like Pabuwal are simply trying to get a rise out of people. Which says alot about them, now doesnt it?

  65. Every player on this team is our player. I’d stick up for Baldwin if people were bashing him and ignoring stats and/or specific examples of good play. And I dont consider stating an opinion that RW is not YET an elite qb as being “dumping” on him. Thats silly. He’s a fine player, and an even better human being. Not once have I said otherwise. Some people just cant handle any critiquing of their favorite players.

    And nowhere will you find me saying Tate is one of the top 5 or 10 WR’s in the NFL. He’s not, his height limits him and he’s still too inconsistent with his route running. But he is definitely in the top 15 to me, and his potential is sky-high. He’s a hell of an athlete and a tough, durable competitor that knows our system inside and out. For that reason, I think its worth keeping him around, even for Sidney Rice money.

    For those that dont agree, I would hope they would provide examples, stats, and comparisons with other players to explain their stance. Some have, and some are like Pabuwal who simply makes things up, or posts statements that arent true–like saying Tate only showed up vs the Rams last year.

  66. PFT was saying Sherman and his camp are going to ask Seattle to re-do his contract–an extension, a raise, whatever. Things should get interesting around these parts very soon. I cant see Sherman being happy with playing his contract out for peanuts while watching ET–who’s already been paid millions–get his this year. I just dont see that working out very well.

    So aside from Tate and Bennett, there are quite a few tough decisions for our FO to make, and several storylines to ponder.

    Im hoping we can keep McDonald and McDaniels as well. Especially McDonald, as Mebane isnt getting any younger.

  67. yankinta says:

    STTBM,, I’m glad you brought it up. Cutting Mebane has very little dead money to our Cap. Would it make sense to cut Mebane and extend McDonald?? Would save $5.3 mil and if we can resign McDonald to 3-4 mil a year….

    I really like Mebane though but we definitely have tough decisions coming up. Which is why I think the FO will decide to keep the cheaper of Baldwin and Tate,, while drafting a WR in the first 2 rounds this year…

  68. Mebane is a leader and a fine player still. I cant see them cutting him, he’s actually a bargain at 5 million a year. If you look at advanced stats, he’s in the top 3-10 DT’s in the league all around, yet he’s not being paid that much. I dont think his play has diminished at all, and he made it through the whole year without getting gimpy, for the first time in years.

    McDonald isnt the run-stuffing force Mebane is, though he’s a better pass rusher. I dont think he can take over for Mebane just yet. It kind of depends on Jesse Williams, and whether they see him playing alongside Mebane or in Mebane’s spot as the one-tech.

    Who knows what PC and JS will do, but I think its possible they franchise tag Bennett. The thing is, Bennett will sue to be considered a DE not a DT, and the price diff is 3 million a year.

    I also think they keep Mebane regardless. The only folks I see in line to get a paycut or be flat fired are Rice, Miller, Giacomini, McQuistan, and unfortunately Michael Robinson.

  69. yankinta says:

    I think we’ve seen the last of Michael Rob,, unless he’s willing to take the minimum…. I also think that T-Jack will not be with us,, unless he takes the minimum and compete for spot against BJ Daniels. I’m actually looking forward to that competition the camp…. :)

    I have a good feeling that Harvin is going to play the entire season next year and make a huge impact…. he will shut up all the haters and the Naysayers for good…. :)

    I wonder if Turbin has any trade value,,, I’d much rather trade him now than lose him later….his contract remains cheap for the next couple of years and he’s shown some abilities… I’m pretty confident that Michael and Ware are ready to take the backup job…..

  70. bulldog80 says:

    Jeez, I’m glad many of you aren’t our GM. No one is going to tender a 2nd round pick for Baldwin. For crying out loud, Anquan Boldin was had for a 6th. You can’t compare the Hutch fiasco with DB, Hutch was the best player at his position in the entire league. It’s debatable whether DB is even the best on our team.

    Now, with that being said, I love Baldwin and want him to remain on the team. He’s got great chemistry with RW and has that certain “fire” that makes him a tough competitor. On Tate, to be honest, I wouldn’t mind seeing him walk. I like him very much, he seems to be a really cool guy, but he’s not a natural pass catcher and he scares the crap out of me the way he handles the football on punt returns. His production could be easily replaced in my opinion.

  71. I’m I the only person who would rather keep Baldwin over Tate? I feel that Baldwin has been way more clutch than Tate and has made way more crazier grabs than Tate (besides the SuccessMary). Plus if Harvin goes down, he’s awesome at kickoffs as well. I think of Baldwin as a way better Bobby Engram. I would love to keep both, but if I had a choice, it would be Baldwin.

  72. GeorgiaHawk says:

    STTBM- Who here has ever said Wilson is the best ever QB?
    As much as I like Wilson I have never said that. He is certainly the best Seahawk QB ever imo and he is top five,(which I consider elite).

    I doubt if he helps the Seahawks win 5 Super Bowls he will ever be considered elite to the media because he didn’t pass for 5000 yards and 50 tds in a season, and he is still short.

    Well Bill Russell never Scored 100 points in a game or averaged 50 points a game but he has a whole lot of championships doesn’t he? And he may not have been considered the best by many however he is still considered one of the elite Basketball players of all-time by most.

    Now as I told you before Wilson looked average for a good QB at the end of the season simply because he was facing top 5 and/or ten Defenses.
    Factor in the poor o-line play,(partly because of injuries) and not having Rice or Harvin didn’t help either.
    Those are just the facts whether you choose to accept it or not.

    I would like to see you try and make the case that Manning, Brady, Brees or Rodgers would have done much better than Wilson under those circumstances.
    BTW- How did Manning and Brees do against a top five D like Seattle? And that’s with better O-lines and better WRs to work with.

  73. bulldog–Um, Anquan Boldin is old AND slow. Thats why he was had so cheaply. Baldwin is young and much faster, and as stated by others many times, Seattle has had multiple inquiries on him, including an offer of a second round pick from Indy. And that was BEFORE this season, which really showcased what he’s capable of doing.

    This team throws the ball less than anyone in the league; the stats of our WR’s dont tell the whole story.

    Tate’s punt return antics scare me too, but he’s perhaps the best in the league. And scary or not, he doesnt fumble. I dont know what you mean about him not being a natural pass catcher; He dropped three passes all year, despite being targeted more than any other WR on the team. Doug Baldwin dropped three passes IN A ROW vs Indy this year.

    But I totally agree, Seattle may not be able to afford him. Im hopeful though; the National Media doesnt seem to even have them on their radar, they talk more about Julian Edelman, for chrissakes! Julian Edelman! Now THATS funny, and shows why they arent working for NFL teams….And I sincerely hope NFL teams are as clueless to Tate’s true value, because I’d love to see him resign for a decent price.

  74. It would flat kill me to see him go to a team like the Pats, or Indy or God Forbid the Raiders….

  75. GeorgiaHawk says:

    It will be interesting to see how Manning does against the NFC West this season.

  76. yankinta says:

    GeorgiaHawk and STTBM,,, IMO, Wilson is Elite, top 5 QB in the NFL today. He’s getting very close to top 3….the best QB from 2012 draft class by far. Remember,, he has been facing Top 5 Defenses,, all his young career and yet still able to have over 100 QB rating in the 1st 2 year combined….. :)

    The well respected Bill Barnwell wrote:

    “If you think Wilson is the fifth-best quarterback in football and not the second-best, that’s fine. If you think he’s the 15th-best quarterback in football or something like that, you’re probably not cut out for player analysis.”

  77. Georgia–Never said you claimed he was the best ever. I was exaggerating to prove a point though, because others went beyond the pale when evaluating RW.

    And you know I think passing yards are the single most overrated statistic for a qb. I look more at his TD/Int ratio and his completion percentage and overall passer rating. I also look at the types of throws he makes, and his ball placement and accuracy. Not to mention throwing a covered guy open vs throwing an open guy covered.

    Thats why IMO RW was barely in the top 10 this year; too many off-target throws on easy plays; too many passes that while completed, allowed the DB who was initially beaten to attempt to make a play.

    Bill Russel was well before my time, so I cant hang with you there in that argument, I’d just sound stupider than usual lol!

    I think a large part of RW not looking that great the final quarter of the season had more to do with coaching by Carrol and Carl Smith; they made him too careful with the ball. But I agree with you whole-heartedly that the porous offensive line and not having Harvin affected his play negatively. I just feel the majority of the blame should be placed firmly on the shoulders of Smith and Carrol.

    That said, RW still cant throw a football like a truly elite qb (on a consistent basis), and he misses open guys deep far too often (as he missed Tate vs the Niners). When he can drop passes like the one to Baldwin in the SB right in the bread basket and hit the WR in stride full speed, when he can nail 95% of the slant routes, when he can throw Kearse open on the first near-TD in the SB instead of waiting till he was open, then rifling it in too late, THEN he will be a truly elite qb. And I expect that to happen, and soon; but he isnt there yet, and I blame Carrol and Smith for stunting his development.

    Admittedly, we’re arguing over trifles. RW is an amazing leader and person, and a fine qb. I wouldnt trade him for Luck and Mathis. He’s the perfect player for this team. I just cant wait for him to finally take the next step and start slicing teams like a surgeon, Manning-style. And believe me, that day will soon be here.

  78. It’s baffling to me how we can discuss giving Tate a $6m a year contact with a straight face here.

    Do you guys realize how close this team is to the cap and that’s with most of the stars on rookie contracts? I get there can be a few releases to pick up $25m but then this team needs to go sign 10 players just to get to 53. That’s before giving extensions to the 5-10 or so low priced stars (Wilson, Thomas, Sherman, Maxwell, Wagner, Wright, Smith) sitting on rookie contracts.

    WR has been the most interchangeable player on this team, next to OL. They have big money committed to Harvin and Baldwin will be getting a raise. There is no way they can give a replacement level WR in Tate big money.

  79. bulldog80 says:

    I think you’re minimizing Boldin’s ability but I just used him as a recent example. How about Brandon Marshall for a 3rd or Santonio Holmes for a 5th? The point is that I think we value him higher than the rest of the league. I don’t think he’ll be going anywhere and it will really surprise me if JS uses the 1st round tender. That’s not really his style.

  80. yankinta–I am aware that you think RW is a top 5 qb. I dont see it, but its fun to discuss it sometimes.

    IMO, RW got outplayed by a few qb’s that havent always shined, like Phillip Rivers. He also was outplayed by the usual suspects–Brees, Manning, Brady, Rogers, etc.

    I dont think Luck outplayed him all season, but Luck can make throws look easy that RW just cant even attempt. He just needs to reign in that Riverboat Gambler/Favre-itis a bit.

    You can certainly argue that RW belongs anywhere from 6-12 in qb rankings, IMO. Im not set on exactly where he’s at, I just feel he isnt quite an elite qb yet, though he is an elite leader and he played very well in the biggest game of all time for Seattle. Thats worth a lot. And his TD throw to Kearse to beat the Niners on fourth down was absolutely Epic!

  81. GeorgiaHawk says:

    I agree with you yankinta, and also Wilson has averaged over 500 yards rushing his first two years.
    No QB in NFL history has a career average of 500 yards rushing and a career average 100 QB rating in their first two years.
    And no other QB in NFL history has more wins in their first two years.
    And no other QB in NFL history has been more fun to watch in his first two years.

    Aren’t we Lucky?

  82. Bulldog–Im actually a huge Boldin fan, and was sick when he left AZ and we couldnt get him. But he’s at an age where teams just arent willing to give up picks because the risk of injury and losing a step increase dramatically. He can get open deep anymore, and unless teams have a crappy nickel back or use Zone too much, he’s not going to put up great stats.

    I wouldnt trade a seventh for Holmes now. The guy is a loser malingerer with injury and major attitude issues. He’s garbage. Marshall is in a class with Fitz, Johnson, Green, and Megatron; he’s miles ahead of where Boldin is, and he’s younger and much taller.

    We value DB more than the rest of the league because we know him well. But you may be right–they may just slap the second round tender on him. They may even sign Tate and let DB go for a second, and use Harvin in the slot whenever we go 3-wide. Its possible.

    Not sure I like that idea. If Tate commands big bucks–I mean more than Rice was getting paid–then I cant see spending that much on two WR’s and letting a cheaper Baldwin go. The better choice would be to let Tate walk then, and keep Baldwin at a first round tender, and draft a project WR. Kearse, Baldwin and Harvin are a great group. The only problem then is, who’s the fourth guy? I cant count on Lockette, and Rice IMO is not worth keeping around due to his durability issues. Any injury to the top 3 would then gut the WR corps, especially if its Harvin who goes down.

  83. yankinta says:

    lol,, we all know what happens when Manning, Brees, Rogers faces top 5 Defenses…. They all missed obvious throws,, and threw ints…

    Andrew Luck is not even in the conversation. He’s average at best,, throwing 4 picks against 26th ranked Pass D in the playoff?? c’mon…smh. Although he’s been the Luckiest QB in the league. He’s face Easiest Schedule in his Rookie year,, last year, he faced 3rd easiest schedule. This upcoming year,, he will face the Easiest schedule, again.. let the hype begin.

    I do agree the Phillip Rivers played well,, he’d definitely in the Top 5. However, he didn’t face top 5 D not many times, last season,, if any at all….

    RW has been playing against Top 6 Hardest Schedule all his young career. This 2014 season, he will again face 5th hardest Schedule…. :)

  84. Pabs–You may be right about Seattle not even being able to afford 6 million a year for Tate, or any other WR not named Harvin. But he’s not going to be easily replaced.

    Its going to be a nervous, difficult offseason until we get to camp.

  85. Wilson can do whatever Carroll wants him to do. If they want him to manage a game, he’ll do it.

    If they get behind by double digits, then he’ll bring them back. Wilson is 4-1 in the playoffs all time. Yet 3 of those 5 games saw the Seahawks down by 10+ points only for Wilson to lead a game winning or lead taking drive in the 4th quarter in ALL 3 of those games. I am pretty certain that the most postseason comebacks from any double digit deficit by a QB all time does not exceed 5. It might just be 3.

    That last stat is the mark of an elite QB. But like all elite QBs his play does dropoff when facing top end defenses. His detractors will harp on those games all day long. Just like his supporters will ignore that and trump all the games where he destroys defenses outside of the top end.

  86. Yankinta–Our schedule is actually much harder than 5th IMO. They rank that based on opponents win percentage, which is ridiculous. For instance, the Cards were only 10-6 but beat us once and are a tough team now. The Rams were tough as well, though their record wasnt good. They are a far better team than their record shows–they had to play some good teams. Every year there are teams with winning records who won with an easy schedule, and teams with losing records who were actually much better. So strength of schedule measured by opponents win/loss record is a misleading stat.

    And thats a good point, Seattle faced almost every single defense in the top 10. Yet RW beat most of them. And the Broncos did their damage against teams in the bottom third in the league in defense, so their records arent as impressive to me as they seem on the surface.

  87. The Cards would have been 12-4 or better had they played in the AFC, and the Chargers would have been 6-10 at best.

  88. Chargers would have been 6-10 had they played in the NFC.

  89. Macabrevity says:

    This whole elite QB conversation is obviously subjective… stats are influenced by game planning and schedule and injuries. Nonetheless, it’s a good a conversation as any. I personally wouldn’t use the term elite to describe him as I’ve seen a lot of accuracy issues. That said, I can’t think of one single QB I’d trade him for in this system with this O-Line, these WR’s etc.

    As for Tate, I unrealistically prefer him over any other WR on the squad including Percy, for obvious reasons, but I can’t see us re-signing him unless it’s a serious discount. W/o Percy we could do it easily, but that trade and sign pretty much sealed his fate. I’d like to see him go somewhere like the Skins, get grossly overpaid and enjoy the riches.

  90. GeorgiaHawk says:

    I wouldn’t take Luck over Wilson however Luck would be a close second.

    I don’t know why you are such a Luck hater, (did he kick your dog or something?) but you have to admit Luck has a lot of the same qualities that Wilson has.
    Work ethic, leadership, clutch, athleticism, ect…

    Would you say yankinta that Luck has the talent around him that Wilson has?

  91. Pabs–I agree. Wilson could put up a lot more TD’s and yards if Carrol let him loose with the offense. And his play in the playoffs has been stunning.

    Id like to think Im even-handed; I do take into account the competition he faced. But when he misses routine throws with no pressure on him, or floats a ball to a wide open receiver when he has time to throw, or doesnt even see his SE wide open deep, I see a young qb who isnt quite playing at an elite level consistently. He has had games where he looked unstoppable, and games where he looked fairly pedestrian. Overall, I think he’s poised to take that next step, but hasnt gotten there yet.

  92. I remember all the hand wringing over some of the off seasons past. The Hutch debacle, whether or not to re-sign Shaun Alexander, Lofa Tatupu, even to extend Matt Hasselbeck. Lots of people with lots of opinions. How much do we trust JS & PC, and are we too infatuated with this team to think that for some players it is all about the money, and understanding that their careers are short and they might just go somewhere (Cleveland) because they are getting paid. Remember– management has a plan and I’m not sure loyalty is a part of it. This is the same management team that cut Michael Robinson because he was too sick to play. (According ti him, he was near death at one point) So from a players perspective–and every player saw the way MRob was treated, should we expect them to give some kind of discount when they know that it could be them that is cut when they are no longer useful?

  93. montanamike2 says:

    I also agree that Wilson could do more if necessary and has done so a few times already, with him, the best is yet to come.

  94. chuck_easton says:


    Just so you know I do not undervalue Tate, and I do not overvalue Baldwin.

    The two are both very good young receivers and both played a key role in that Lombardi trophy that is now permanently displayed at VMAC.

    In a perfect world I would be thrilled to have both back. I’m hoping that still happens.

    What I am saying is not personal it’s purely business (in my best Godfather impression).

    Seahawks: A little over 1 million under the cap and that is with only 45 players signed.

    Tate: UFA and likely looking at a big payday. What that will be is debatable. 4-10M is a big range. Who knows what the final number will end up being.

    Baldwin: RFA, likely tendered at 2nd round or around 2.5 million.

    Baldwin is the cheaper option. In the event that the team cannot or will not carry both players, Baldwin is the smart business choice.

    As we have all said on here, this time of year stinks for the fans. Especially when we are trying to revel in that SB win.

    But the fact is some players are going to go and some fans are not going to be happy.

  95. bulldog80 says:

    The well respected Bill Barnwell wrote:
    “If you think Wilson is the fifth-best quarterback in football and not the second-best, that’s fine. If you think he’s the 15th-best quarterback in football or something like that, you’re probably not cut out for player analysis.”

    Yakinta, This is an awesome quote that I hadn’t read before. It’s also one that I totally agree with. Even at this early stage of his career, RW is without a doubt in the top 6 QB’s of the league. If you don’t think so perhaps “you’re probably not cut out for player analyis.”

    STTBM, I think it’s going to be the lowest stress offseason in history for me. Finally I can confidently say that I have total faith in our front office. They’ve earned it.

  96. Georgia–Agreed. Part of RW’s success is due to the badass team around him; perhaps the best RB in the NFL (certainly the toughest), a fine WR corps, a great TE with some of the best hands in the NFL who can block like a tackle, a young fast TE, and the best defense in the NFL. Not to mention excellent coaches and special teams.

    He does have one of the 5 worst offensive lines in the NFL though, and that hampers him (IMO, they are the worst).

    Luck has no run game, he lost Wayne and Heyward-Bey, and pretty much had only TY Hilton to rely on. Thats not enough. And his offensive line–though superior to ours–isnt exactly All-Pro either. And the D was only avg.

    Luck gambles too much, but he sure torched the Legion of Boom, making some incedible throws. Throws only guys like Elway, Moon, Rogers, Brady, Brees, and the Manning of old make. Throws RW cant make.

    I wouldnt trade RW for Luck plus Mathis, as I said; But make no mistake, Luck is a fine qb and its certainly possible he outplays RW during his career. He will almost certainly have better stats because they will throw the ball a lot more than Seattle.

  97. yankinta says:

    GeorgiaHawk,, lol I don’t hate Luck. I think he’s Fine young QB with a lot of potential. I just can’t stand it when ESPN try to brainwash the entire nation, like we’re blind or fools…. I mean, what has he done that purely spectacular,, Other than getting drafted 1st overall pick?? I just don’t see it….

    He does have the talent around him,, better weapons than RW does, in terms of WR,, Wayne is a Future HOF and multiple All Pro WR,, TY Hilton is an up and coming good young WR, also a speedster…. I mean I would trade Tate or BD for TY Hilton straight up..,, wouldn’t you? :)

    btw, have you read this?? Ignore who wrote it and try to judge the article its merits..

  98. Would Luck put up those stats without the INTs? I don’t think so. The man threw 7 INTs in 2 playoff games. That only flies in the AFC when playing a team that had starters dropping like flies. Carroll would never allow that. He doesn’t want his QB making those ridiculous throws, unless absolutely necessary (ie down by 10+ points). You can’t make that comparison between both QBs.

  99. Chuck–I think you have been very reasoned and logical in your comments regarding offseason moves. Im sure the situation at VMAC regarding player extensions will be fluid all offseason. Anything could happen. Well, except us being able to resign everyone, which wont happen.

    However, look what happened last season. We never thought we could get Avril, let alone Avril and Bennett, with McDaniels thrown in for good measure.

    As players like McDaniels, Tate, and Bennett look to cash in, good and maybe great players from losing teams will look to hitch their star to a winner like Seattle to win a SB, and/or to showcase their stock in order to eventually land the big contracts our own guys are likely to be getting elsewhere. So things could work out very well for Seattle even if we lose some key guys like Tate and Bennett.

    I dont see any way we keep Maxwell and Sherm both; its one or the other, and theres a chance that we lose them both when their contracts are up. Which is why we keep drafting guys like Lane, Thurmond, and Simon. Got to back-fill when guys get too expensive.

  100. re the WR’s the big key is one that we have no control over – Harvin’s health. I think most of us would agree that if knew Percy was going to play 16 games for us, that losing Tate to a FA contract isn’t a huge deal. but if Percy goes down, and Tate goes elsewhere, we would again be extremely thin at the position.

    starting to feel like we’re going to lose Bennett, which is a real bummer, the combo of him and Avril rushing the passer this year was really significant. and I don’t buy for a second the premise that our bench guys like Schofield, Mayowa, etc., are suddenly going to up their games and replace what he brought. guess we’ll wait and see.

  101. Yankinta–I would choose Tate over Hilton. Tate is tougher, and more durable. He also gets open vs all kinds of DB’s, whereas Hilton can be shut down. But its just an opinion, both are excellent talents with huge upside.

  102. I’ll take Hilton in a second. Luck is very inconsistent within a game with his accuracy and decision making which is why you see a Good Luck and a Bad Luck – all within the same game. You’ll see Hilton get that Mike Wallace contract when the time comes.

    When Bad Luck shows up, he can quickly throw himself out of it with a few quick bombs to Hilton. If Luck had Tate, he would only have quick 5 yard passes or jump balls to throw. Hilton gives Luck cheap yards few other WRs can. Wilson rarely gets those cheap yards (although he got a few cheap TDs in the SB thanks to the WRs).

  103. montanamike2 says:

    I’m confident with this FO to attract the right talent and make the right decisions. We still have all the rookies from last years draft in the waiting along with this years draft, so i’d say yeah things are looking good right now. Tate might be willing to take a discount but Bennett sure won’t, Bennett has been playing two seasons with torn rotater cuffs so i wouldn’t expect him back at all.

  104. montanamike2 says:

    As a long term solution.

  105. Southendzone says:

    Someone above said DB didn’t manage a 100 yard receiving game this year.

    I BEG TO DIFFER! You might remember a little, out of the way, not very important game, when he put up 6 catches for 106 yards, and while I can’t find the exact #, also managed to put up over 100 yards kick returning.

    OH yeah I remember now, it was the greatest game of all time, when the Hawks beat the 49ers to earn their way to the Superbowl.

  106. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Yep Southendzone, Baldwin is a 49er killer. Hopefully the FO won’t insult him with a second round tender or he may be gone next season.

  107. It’d be cool if someone came out with a salary cap app so people could see what it would be like to stay beneath the cap. We have so many people that the team “cannot do without” that if some had their way they’d pay them whatever they wanted and end up seeing that the salary cap isn’t $250 million per year. Then they’d finally get it that you can’t keep everyone.

    My philosophy has been to keep the truly legit superstars and let the guys who will make millions although they can’t claim to be among the best at what they do… walk if that’s what it comes down to.

    I realize a Zach Miller and Golden Tate type of guy is nice, but there’s no way in heck they deserve to be paid like they are among the best at their position in the NFL. Again, I like both and the team is worse off without out them but there is a price to everying and if the salary cap was a quarter of a billion, I’d be all for keeping them around. If Paul Allen could just pull a George Steinbrenner – that’d be cool, too, but he can’t. Therefore, decisions have to be made.

  108. yankinta says:

    BobbyK,, that’s a great idea!! lol but some of us are obsessed, enough imo…. That’d make us too addicted to football….. smh…

  109. Seahawkfan78 says:

    STTBM – I think you said it best so far when you talked about players looking to cash in and good maybe great players coming off loosing teams to get a ring.

    This year was a perfect example of that with Bennett and Cliff. Give them a year or two with a “prove it” contract and then go make some sucker team pay you bank. Plus the cat is out of the bag with players. They want to come up here and play for Pete, and hopefully get a ring in the process.

  110. rramstad says:

    Random thought… we may need to fill 10 roster spots on the 53, but we do have a few guys waiting in the wings (coming off of IR especially, or from practice squad), plus of course the draft class this year… we know PC and JS are not afraid to start rookies if they show what they need to show.

    I don’t think the cap situation is nearly as dire as some people here seem to think.

    Some guys will walk, some key guys will sign reasonable deals, and we’ll cut some non essential guys — especially guys who have younger and cheaper backups behind them — to create cap space to make those reasonable deals happen.

    I am absolutely certain that PC and JS not only know what is a reasonable market price to pay for a particular type of guy, but they also know what we really need as a team, and what is likely to not show up in the draft or develop from the roster we already have. It is not overpaying if a guy brings something unique and we need it. Conversely there are guys on the roster now who do things that other people do as well… there may be a bonus for familiarity and knowing the player and them knowing the system, but some positions are more plug and play so if a Seahawk walks because he wants $8 million to resign, and you know there’s a quality FA who is two years younger that you can get at $6 million, there’s no reason to prefer the Seahawk… especially if you are happy to take some risks, as PC and JS seem to be.

    I think we might end up being pleasantly surprised at the amount of turnover. Certainly fans tend to fall in love with players, but the front office has to have a more dispassionate eye. I suspect that wherever there are older players, that’s where the cuts will be, especially if there’s a younger player already on the roster. Same goes for free agents, we won’t resign any of the older free agents, pretty much. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if we let a bunch of our guys walk and then picked up one or two completely new young free agents (unless it’s possibly a marquee type player on a rent a year for a ring type deal).

  111. montanamike2 says:

    83% of NFL players polled said they would like to play for Pete Carroll. 83% of all NFL players!

  112. I hope Jared Allen replaces Clem on the roster for ’14 and frees up a few million in the process.

  113. Southendzone–I meant regular season, should have clarified. Yes, that was a monster game. Tate could have had 100 yards too, had RW even looked his way. But as I said, the line gave him no time and he was short-scanning the field.

    Im certainly aware that Seattle cant possibly pay everyone what they feel they are worth. I just have a problem with the idea that Tate isnt worth more than 3 or 4 million, considering the amount top WR’s make, and the amount paid to FA wr’s of lesser talent the last few years. The market is, like it or not.

    Cant wait to see what JS and PC do to keep this team together.

    Georgia: Baldwins stats vs the Niners this year:

    Game One: 1 catch, 51 yards 0 TD’s.
    Game Two: 3 catches, 36 yds 0 TD’s
    Playoffs: 6 catches 106 yds 0 TD’s.

    His stats werent impressive his first two games, but that 51 yard catch was huge, and his 3 catches were all big in that second niners game. He tore it up in the playoffs vs the Niners though.

    Interestingly, Tate was second to Baldwins 13 catches with 8, but for only 61 yards and 0 TD’s. Kearse had 7 cactches, but for 134 yards and 2 TD’s.

    In my mind, this shows that defenses underestimated Baldwin and Kearse–to their detriment. They focused on taking away Tate and preventing the long ball, and that didnt work out too well for them did it lol?!

  114. SandpointHawk says:

    BobbyK dislikes the Minnesota Vikings, but oh once they move on to the West Minnesota Seahawks…

    BobbyK may our best scout in Minnesota.

  115. I just wish we’d drafted Cordarrelle Patterson and left Harvin whining about being unappreciated in Minny. Patterson will tear it up next year, and the guys making a hell of a lot less than Harvin.

    And we could have kept Tate then.

    Then again, the kick return and those two runs were HUGE in the SB. And wish in one hand, you know what in the other, and see which fills up faster…

  116. Southendzone says:

    Maybe up til about 3:30 pm on February 2nd, I might have agreed with the Cordarelle Patterson comment. But once the ball kicked off and I knew we had our own version of a Stark Industries missile lining up on the team, I was over it. Then after the KO return, all those weeks of wondering what might have been and question about future cap issues were gone.

    Right now there’s no 2nd guessing the moves because the all paid off.

  117. yankinta says:

    Southendzone,, lol, that’s only the beginning. That’s why I loved the Percy Harvin trade/move from Day ONE!!

    He’ll stay healthy next year and will not miss any game. He’ll shut up all the doubters and haters, while we go 14-2 against Top 5 Hardest Schedule!! That’s my prediction… lol :)

  118. sluggo42 says:

    Blah blah blah

    So when exactly do the signings and stuff start? All this blathering about who is worth what is extremely redundant. When the real stuff starts to happen, then we will know true worth.

    When? When?

  119. Who cares about all this speculation, we just won a’n Super Bowl. Let Pete and John do there thing, remember, they just got us a Super Bowl. It will all be good. Go Hawks.

  120. Free Agency begins March 11. Officially.

    In reality, the tampering has already begun.

  121. Things will start Feb 17,2014 when we can designate Franchise and Transition players.

  122. Wrong Viking BobbyK…according to Evan Silva of Rotoworld, the guy to keep your eye on isn’t a dinosaur named Allen. ;-)

    It’s a guy named Everson Griffen…check him out!

    And oh by the way…he played for Pete at USC. Now don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Michael Bennett…a lot, but not @ $10M per year.

    Besides, why you in such a hurry to dump Clem? I think that guy plays balls out and will continue to for another few years. He might have to restructure his deal a little, but I love the way that angry man plays!


  123. SeventiesHawksFan says:


    I spoke with Golden personally and directly the night of the parade (after it was over) and he doesn’t want to leave this team at all. And this was him just talking about his feelings not what could be reported in the media.

    And also one of my closest friends talks with and texts Golden almost daily, and he is very clear to this person that he wants to stay here as well. I didn’t ask him any of his thoughts about his contract desires, which would be totally out of line and weird, but there is no question in my mind that his honest desire is to remain here.

    And I think that any talk on this blog of letting him go is absolutely crazy. You don’t just plug in a receiver to replace Golden’s contribution to this team. And any injury to Harvin, Kearse, or Baldwin and we are in a bad spot and need him.

    This team’s best outcome at the receiver position is to have Baldwin, Tate and Harvin locked up for the next three to four years and draft a developmental receiver. And then figure out what will happen with Kearse after next season.

    We do all of that and we are set at the receiver position for many, many years. And I think it’s what is going to happen anyway.

  124. Screensmoke says:

    I havnt read any of the previous posts- but the one right above mine is a pipe dream about golden Tate – He will take the money and one of the top bidders! it is a no brainer for him- hawks don’t need him as much as he deserves and needs the money- he is history – to much money on the table out there for him- the hawks will draft another Tate or equivalent and let PH do his thing- smart move by Hawks and Tate – he helped us get a ring and I will be forever grateful

  125. CDHawkFan says:

    Agree Screensmoke, $16 mill guarnteed at $4 mill a year, is a lot differnt than $28 mill guarnteed at $7 mill per year. To me that isn’t a discount, that would be stupidity.

    He has a ring and will probably only play 5-6 more years as his family and agent will remind him. Get it while you can as you can set up mulitple generations and its not like living/playing for another team for 5-6 years of your life is going to be that horrible. 99 out of 100 people would take the money (30 – 50% more pay), do you really expect GT to be that 1%?

  126. It’s kind of funny how people think that because any of us think that a play MAY leave or that the Seahawks can’t afford anymore – means that we HATE those players or think they are not important.

    I want this whole team to be able to stay together BUT at some point a very good to great player is going to have to be let go – it sucks but it IS going to happen either this year or the next. The hope is we can “replace” them with an affordable person that can bring us some of the same skill set to make our transition easier

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