Seahawks Insider

Morning links: Holding Carroll’s feet to the fire on PEDs

Post by Eric Williams on May 19, 2013 at 8:28 am with 92 Comments »
May 19, 2013 8:30 am
Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll watches as players stretch before practice drills at Seahawks NFL football Rookie Minicamp, Friday, May 10, 2013, in Renton, Wash. (AP Photo/Ted S. Warren)
Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll watches as players stretch before practice drills at Seahawks NFL football Rookie Minicamp, Friday, May 10, 2013, in Renton, Wash. (AP Photo/Ted S. Warren)

John McGrath of The News Tribune notes that Bruce Irvin actually is the seventh Seattle player (I failed to mention running back Vai Taua) to test positive for performance enhancing drugs in two years.

McGrath reports that only the Washington Redskins, with seven, have accumulated more drug suspensions than the Seahawks during that time frame. No other team has more than four.

Ten teams have just one suspension over that time frame, while nine others have none.

McGrath believes it’s time for Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll to address the team’s drug-test failures. Carroll will get his first opportunity to discuss the issue during an organized team activity workout on Monday open to reporters.

McGrath: “I keep waiting for Carroll to deplore the fact his team, among 32 in the NFL, ranks No. 2 in drug suspensions since 2011. I keep waiting for him to acknowledge what the rest of us are thinking: Whatever policy the Seahawks are following to discourage players from performance-enhancing drugs, it isn’t enough.

If Carroll were a taciturn sort given to choose words carefully, I’d understand his reluctance to elaborate on a sensitive topic. But he talks in stream-of-consciousness sentences that are more like chapters from an oral-history book, 1,000 words between every pause.”

ESPN’s Mike Sando examines Seattle’s pass rush rotation that will likely be without the team’s leading sack guys to begin the year in Bruce Irvin and Chris Clemons. Sando: “Seattle’s current defensive linemen combined for 16 sacks on third down last season. The currently unavailable Irvin (5.5), Clemons (4.5) and Scruggs (1.0) combined for 11 of them. Bennett (3.0) and Avril (2.0) had the other five.”

Matt Barrows of The Sacramento Bee writes that former Seattle receiver Ricardo Lockette is getting help with the playbook from San Francisco quarterback and roommate Colin Kaepernick with the hopes of making the 49ers roster this season.

Dan Pompei writing for the National Football Post notes the growing use by NFL teams like the Seahawks of GPS systems and heart rate monitors during practice to monitor biomechanics and recovery.

Several Seattle players, with Marshawn Lynch at No. 3, are listed among ESPN’s top 300 fantasy football players’ list. What a difference three years make.

Brock Huard and Danny O’Neil of 710 ESPN Seattle discuss what Earl Thomas can do to take the next step in his development as a player in this video link.

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Morning links
Leave a comment Comments → 92
  1. bird_spit says:

    I’d like to see any report on Ty Powell, and his chances at Leo.

  2. IwillPay says:

    I just have one question for Ped Carroll, Will you get me a superbowl?

  3. LanceWhite says:

    If the Redskins and the Seahawks both have seven suspensions in two years, how could the Redskins be the only team that has more?

  4. LanceWhite says:

    Iwillpay..get you a Super Bowl? What position on the team do you play?

  5. Dukeshire says:

    Without Irvin and and likely Clem available the first mknth of the season, I’d be surprised if Seattle ran much under, thus, no Leo. But of course there’s a long way to go before we know for certain.

  6. I wonder how Russell Wilson feels about this. From everything I’ve read (I know, not much), R Dub seems entrenched in his faith and consistently tries to do the right thing being better than the last.

    I’m sure he can work with anyone, probably figures that it’s just the way it is, but one can help but to wonder if more Hawks applied R Dub’s self standard, living more consciously and really committing to the journey.

    I love PC and JS…defended them at most every move, but this issue probably shouldn’t be swept under the carpet like the last 1/2 dozen. I think both PC and JS need to have a presser tomorrow to address this stuff. You can still be the hippest coach in the league or the young brilliant GM, but now the responsibility shifts to the opportunity these fortuitous millionaires really have.

    Again, injuries happen…most everyone understands it, but when you aren’t on the field for other reasons that are up to the individuals will power, the team focuses to an individual focus. Teams win, individuals lose.

    Address it tomorrow, instill accountability measures and move on. The bright intelligent legion of Hawks fans will forgive and do the same.

    Now…let’s play some football.

    GO HAWKS!

  7. Everyone cheats to some extent. If you ain’t cheatin’, you ain’t tryin’ is right. “Cheating” is just a result of ultra competitive athletes trying to get any kind of edge on someone else.

    A large number of athletes in every sport bend the rules. I would think that in the hyper competitive world of the NFL, it would be even more prevalent. The majority of athletes who cheat don’t get caught, at least not every time. But you will at some point if you continue to do so, so you have to be smart about it. Either we get this under control, or find better ways of masking it, as it appears the rest of the NFL doesn’t get caught as often.

    I really don’t care as long as it’s kept under control and results in Seattle getting the Vince Lombardi trophy.

  8. Southendzone says:

    Right on CCVI, if you could guarantee me a superbowl win, the entire team can come onto the field looking like an Eastern European weightlifting Olympic team from the 80′s.

    Hell I don’t care if they have a 3rd arm growing out of their forehead.

  9. Unfortunately, public relations and the news media can get things going into a nasty downward spiral. What you would hope to hear from Pete and the organization is what they’ve been doing already. Not just yesterday but for the whole last year. Then you want to hear the players echo that. (Because if the media aren’t asking the players what’s been done, they’re not doing their job.) “Yeh, they’ve been on us about this heavy ever since I’ve been here.” Because if they choose to, the media can dig into this wound until the team is distracted, the season goes down the tubes, the head coach leaves, and the amazing thing we all hope to see in the very near future is dead.

    Please, Pete, have the right answer on this, and make it true.

  10. So PEDs are Pete Carroll’s fault? hmmm, I don’t get that.

    I think what we have on the Seahawks are more young and inexperienced players than other teams have. Young players make more mistakes. Getting caught for PEDs is a mistake experienced pros have learned not to make.

    If most of the NFL isn’t on HGH (or other untestable varieties of pharmaceuticals) then you’ll have to explain to me how 330-pound men can explode out of a 3-point stance like sprinters and run a sub-5.0/40. Twenty or thirty years ago there were no human beings on the planet like this. It didn’t happen through nutrition or new weight training techniques alone. Players bodies and performance have changed dramatically.

    I don’t think there is any explanation other than pharma being a much bigger part of training than anyone wants to admit. The NFL cannot test for all this, and they cannot control the rapid progress of science and products in this market. All the NFL can do is fine those few players who screw up and fail to keep their banned supplements hidden.

    Call me cynical, but I think the Seahawks current PED problem is more a case of our guys getting caught rather than our guys doing something others are not doing.

  11. SkeleTony says:

    No CCVI, not everyone cheats and cheating has NOTHING at all to do with “trying”. In fact cheating is the exact opposite of trying. I want the Hawks to win a super bowl as much as anyone but if they do so with an even bigger Astrix than Pittsburgh has for their last few SB wins then I want none of it. Using PEDs is no better than poisoning the opposing teams Gatorade. Winners do not have to cheat and our team has too much talent to need such in order to win.

    It is not that most other players are simply not getting caught. Most other players (especially good players) just don’t cheat because they don’t need to and using PEDs is a High risk action for low reward (if you are already talented). The only players for whom the risk matches the reward are players who otherwise would have difficulty making the team year after year (aka Shawn Merriman).

  12. shoehawks says:

    CCVI says:

    “I really don’t care as long as it’s kept under control and results in Seattle getting the Vince Lombardi trophy.”

    Therein lies the problem. If starters are being suspended, it is not being kept under control. Fair or not, right or not, the rules need to be adhered to if you want to see the field. The Seahawks can’t win the Superbowl if their best players aren’t in the game.

  13. bobk3333 says:

    The NFL is out to get the Seahawks. They want to make an example of them.

    They were not amused when Richard Sherman was quoted as saying “half the NFL took adderrall.”

    I think they chose to interpret it as “half the Seahawks take adderral.” The NFL might not stop until half the Hawks are suspended..

    .

  14. SkeleTony says:

    That could be bobk3333 but the way to deal with this is for players to stop trying to cheat. Especially in such a stupid way where you are virtually guaranteed to get caught (unless the tester screws up somehow).

  15. bobk3333 says:

    I am tired of all the self-righteous fans and media who are acting all high and mighty, pointing fingers and beating up the Seahawks.

    These players aren’t taking heroin, cocaine, steroids, marijuana or alcohol. Adderall is much less harmful than any of these.

    I can’t get too upset about players trying to better themselves and are taking a supplement to increase their concentration so that they can study harder.

    Adderall has been extensively studied and no long term effects have been found. Doctors routinely give to children, even very young, small children. They wouldn’t dream of giving kids alcohol and marjuana, but Adderrall seems to be perfectly fine for most doctors. A third to half or more of the students in the very best colleges in the country take adderrall to help them study and no one seems to have much of a problem with that. If the medical establishment advocates giving it to 40-lb kids and there is no outcry whatsoever over the fact that many of the best young brains in the country are taking it regularly, can Adderall be that harmful to 250-lb professional athletes taking it on occassion? Believe me, they don’t study as hard or take it nearly as often as college kids. Why are there little to no concerns about college kids taking it and “cheating” against kids who don’t? If we as a society think it’s okay for our smartest 18 year olds to take it, why can’t a grown man like Bruce Irvin do it as well?

    Adderall mixed with exercise within a few hours is actually a very good combination. Players can study film in the morning then workout in the afternoon, which cleanses the body – and mind – of the drug (although not enough to avoid detection in drug tests.) Adderall also reduces appetite which helps players stay on a healthy diet. Overall, it can be very beneficial to athletes – for both mind and body with almost no risk if they exercise afterwards.

    The shame is that many of the players might have ADHD. Adderall is legal in the NFL for those with legitimate prescriptions, which i am sure many of the players can get.

  16. bobk3333 says:

    If there is a problem, it is thousands of times worse in our colleges, but no one cares about that.

    Is it cheating for students to get into law school by drinking coffee to study harder? Is it cheating to work themselves to the bone with very little sleep, which is a far greater mental and physical health risk, which can permanently damage students, than taking a concentration-enhancing drug before a test?

  17. Dukeshire says:

    What makes it cheating is that certain suppliments are expressly forbidden in the NFL. This is a very basic concept. Comparing the tens of thousands of students that use adderall and ritalin and the like, wothout a prescription, in order to help them study may be a worthwhile conversation to have. But its not a reasonable comparison to this situation because we are only speculating on what Irvin took.

  18. Hi bobk – are we any relation?

  19. Dukeshire says:

    BTW, you know he didn’t test positive for steroids?

  20. SkeleTony says:

    If there were no dishonest benefit for taking adderall then no one would be taking Adderall. It acts as a legal methamphetamine and improves physical performance. I am not saying it is on par with steroids or something but to say it is less potentially harmful than pot is absurd! Pot does not have any harmful side effects beyond effecting concentration and reflexes (so one should not be driving on the stuff for example…or playing football while under it’s influence). More and more doctors now are coming out in favor of pot for treating a laundry list of conditions.

    Pot should not be banned by the NFL: because it provides no benefit to playing the game (in fact quite the opposite) and is therefore less of a drug issue than alcohol is but they don’t ban alcohol use. Adderall is another story.

  21. Ewalters7354 says:

    Thank God this team is talented enough to weather the storm until Bruce comes back.And looking at his production last year I honestly think this team is ok.I mean, I understand he was a raw rookie, but this team has showed that it can be successful with no pass rush.Remember the NE and Detroit game? No pass rush and still played until the final possession with one resulting in a win.

    Basically what I’m saying is I know Clem and Bruce will be missed, but this is a very talented offensive team with the NFL’s best secondary.So I expect the hawks to get it done either way.

  22. Ewalters7354 says:

    Btw before you guys say you need pass rush to win the Super Bowl, I totally disagree.Pats, Saints, etc have got it done simply because they could put up points in a hurry.And if RW is anything as good as last year, I think the hawks can still win the super bowl.Just saying…

  23. Its been interesting to watch this team move from the Tim Ruskell era where players with character concerns were bypassed to The Pete Carroll and John Schneider era where character concerns are no big deal and we only care about finding unique athletes

    Having players with character concerns is abit like playing Russian roulette; keep pulling the trigger on players with character concerns and eventually you will get shot. I’m not saying that I prefer Ruskells way over what PC / JS are doing, only pointing out the inevitable pitfalls.

  24. Hey, Jim Mora Jr. was right, we need a ***few*** dirt bags.

  25. Dukeshire says:

    What was funny to me about the Ruskell high moral ground talk, was that there were multiple arrests, drug issues, and the like with players he drafted (albeit after they got the the league). Quite frankly, IMO, all his lip service about character was fraudulent.

  26. I wouldn’t agree that guys like Browner and Sherman are bad character guys b/c they may have had a positive test. Irvin came in with some characters risks, I suppose. Doesn’t seem like a problem teammate though, which is a much bigger deal imo.

    I still don’t think this is a big deal unless more suspensions are coming that we don’t know about. Should be a wake up call to the players to be smart and not be doing this during the season, a season where we have such lofty, reachable goals. Re specifically this, it will be a story for a couple more days, and then the NFL news cycle will move on.

  27. I guess I don’t think its a big deal either, but this team Adderall affliction needs to be put to rest before it becomes a big deal. We have decent depth, but what if (for example) we were to lose Avril or Bennett to injury or suspension? That would be a problem.

  28. If you want to take some kind of supplement to give yourself an edge, at least be smart about it and choose one that can’t be detected by NFL drug tests yet.

    “I don’t always cheat, but when I do, I take HGH and deer antler spray.”

    You can’t tell me Ray Lewis was clean when he came back from an October triceps injury so severe they announced that he would be out for the year, and then two months later he ends up playing in the playoffs and Superbowl. Yet the Ravens are the champions and they will go in the record books with no asterisk.

    That deer antler spray must work. Somebody with a few extra dollars burning a hole in their pocket that is not connected to the Seahawks
    (Chris Hansen, Steve Ballmer) should just dump a truckload right outside VMAC during the night.

  29. DanielleMND says:

    Suh only got suspended *two* games for stomping on another player’s head after the whistle.

  30. chuck_easton says:

    pdway,

    NFL tests year round. Irvin said himself he hasn’t been sleeping for weeks knowing this was going to be public knowledge soon. So he and the team have known for quite some time.

    NFL and the teams are prohibited about disclosing when, where, how, or what. So the only information that gets out except that there is a suspension is from the player or his agent.

  31. chuck_easton says:

    Danielle,

    This is a standard suspension. 4 games for first positive PED test. 1year for the second.

    Comparing an on field infraction that has a penalty left to the discretion of the league is comparing apples and oranges

  32. chuck_easton says:

    And this does all on Carrol and Schneider. You have 7 players test positive for PEDs with 6 suspensions and 1 getting off on a technicality you have a team problem.

    It should be noted that a couple of the Redskins drug suspensions where for violations of substance abuse ( I.e. marihuana).

    So Seattle does have the most actual PED positives in the past year.

  33. DanielleMND says:

    Chuck, I know what it is, but the league’s standards for suspensions are inconsistent. A large fine would be more appropriate for a first positive PED test.

  34. “NFL tests year round.”

    Is that right? They test during the off-season as well?

    Didn’t know that.

  35. chuck_easton says:

    Danielle,

    It’s in the CBA that way. At the request of the NFLPA so that there is no discretion on the part of the league.

    So, again. Your complaint is moot and irrelevant. In game suspensions are at the commissioners discretion. PED suspensions are not.

  36. chuck_easton says:

    Same with suspensions for substance abuse such as marijuana. The CBA states that the league can’t suspend a player until his third positive test and then it’s an automatic 4 game. Next (or fourth) positive test for illegal substances is one year.

    For PEDs the CBA says 1st positive is 4 games, 2nd is 1 year. There is no mulligans. That is how serious the league takes the abuse of PEDs.

    And all of the Seahawk apologists on here are being hypocritical. If this was happening to the 49rs with 7 positive PED tests in one year everyone would be screaming for a full investigation by the league. But because its “our” team it really isn’t so bad and why can’t the league just stop.

  37. chuck_easton says:

    And Danielle, it’s not just the NFL.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_drug_policy

    MLB first positive PED test is 50 games (roughly 1/3 of the season). Second positive test is 150 games ( out of a 164 game season). Third positive PED test is a lifetime ban from the sport.

  38. DanielleMND says:

    Me, a “Seahawk apologist”? Guilty as charged. Frankly, I don’t think as much would be made about this right now if it was one of the league’s golden teams (I’m not hearing as much outrage over the Redskins’ issues from other quarters).

    I don’t care if it’s in the CBA. It still stinks, and some players have legit prescriptions (like Moffitt) or used a seemingly innocent OTC supplement, and they’re held to the same standard as someone who knowingly shoots up with banned steroids.

  39. Seahawks22360 says:

    I think Chuck works for GODdell. You sure seem to side with his logic. The rule is a joke. A fine for a first DUI as opposed to the 4 banger for adderall. Insane.

  40. This is absolutely a stain on the Seahawks AND PC/JS more on PC than JS – the coach IS the leader of the team – period! He sets the tone, good, bad or indifferent.

    Now whether the difference is who is getting caught and more than who is taking that can be argued all you want. But you better believe coaches can and would be fired if they were to consistently have issues with guys getting suspended. So far the team has been able to weather the storm but how different would the season look if Browner AND Sherman had been gone? no promises they even make the playoffs

  41. chuck_easton says:

    Seahawks22360,

    No, I don’t like cheating.

    MLB considers Adderall a Stimulant. Stimulants fall under PEDs. 1st positive 50 game suspension

    NHL considers it a PED as well. 1st positive is a 20 game ( out of 82 game season)

    Olympic sports 1st positive test is an automatic 2 year ban from the sport 2 nd positive is a lifetime ban. Adderall is on the list. My son is on one of the Canadian Olympic teams. I have to know what’s on the list.

    Until Seahawk players starting testing positive in numbers that cause alarm nobody on here had a problem with other players on other teams getting the four game suspension.

    But since its now a Seahawks epidemic all the sudden it’s a stupid rule and the league is out to get us.

    That is hypocritical.

    And yes I firmly believe Seattle has a problem in their dressing room. The NFL has been testing for PEDs since 1987 and we’ve never seen this many Seahwak players test positive in total, let alone in a one year period.

  42. Chuck on this we totally agree!!

  43. This is not ON Pete. Do we think Pete is not discouraging the players from using PEDs? Do we think Pete doesn’t care if his players get suspended? Do we think he wants a team decimated by suspensions? Doesn’t that affect his ability to win games?

    When we say, “Pete isn’t doing enough?” what is it specifically that he is not doing?

    And for the teams that have only one suspension, what are their coaches doing? Do we know? Where is the reporting about this?

    Maybe this is ON the Seattle population at large. After all, this is one of the most permissive areas of the country.

  44. Dukeshire says:

    Well said, Chuck.

  45. Duke, I don’t any of us here are fans of the Tim Ruskell era, but really… ” all his lip service about character was fraudulent.”??

    I agree if you mean that Ruskell’s reputation of only wanting high-character players was mostly a fiction created by sportswriters and exaggerated by bloggers on this blog. But in truth, he did weed out some bad seeds and he did improve the character of the Seahawks in 2005-06.

    Ruskell threw two players out of Holmgren’s locker room: Anthony Simmons and Jeramy Stevens. Both were cancers in the team. Holmy wouldn’t let them go, so Ruskell had to do it for him. And those were good moves. And Ruskell brought in high-character leaders like Chuck Darby, Joe Jurevicious, and Grant Wistrom. Those were good moves too. Those guys got us to a Super Bowl.

    Ruskell did pay attention to players’ character, and in a few cases it really helped the team.

  46. I don’t think the current testing issues with Irvin and others has anything to do with character.

    I believe that all NFL players take supplements, they all bend the rules when they get away with it, and most probably take banned supplements or similars. They do it to compete and survive in an extremely competitive business.

    Some guys get caught; most don’t. Same with holding, etc. — the best players don’t get caught doing it, and, it helps their team win. I don’t think this has anything to do with character, its the nature of the business they’re in.

    And I don’ think anyone on this blog is holy enough to criticize these athletes who work their arses off 24/7 to make our city a winner.

  47. Dukeshire says:

    Stevo – Perhaps there is some hyperbole to my statement, but you cannot deny there were multiple arrests by players that he drafted and re-signed. Regardless, I do think his character requirement was mostly fiction.

  48. Ruskell had nothing to do with bringing in Wistrom.

  49. chuck_easton says:

    Stevos says its not the players fault, they’re only trying to get an advantage. Snappa says its not Pete’s fault.

    Ok, so why has Seattle had more positive tests for PEDs in the last year than they’ve had in the previous 24 years of PED testing combined?

    If this was the leagues fault wouldnt the instances of positive PED tests be up league wide and not just here? So then it’s obvious that either 1) the league is out to get Seattle, 2) all the other teams are somehow better at beating the system or 3) Seattle has a problem.

    Take the Seahwaks Fan and I want the team to win a SB any way they can blinders off for just one minute and there is only one of those options seems realistic.

    I’ve been a fan of this team since the day the NFL announced the city was getting a franchise. I’ll be a fan of this team until I’m too old and senile to recognize what it is I’m supposed to be watching.

    But I’m not such a fan that I’m wiling to look the other way, or make excuses, or declare a national vendetta against my team when it’s obvious something needs to be done to address this.

    If that makes me a chicken little, an alarmist or ‘not a real fan’ oh well. But I’m not happy with the trend. Not that Id want to go back to the 2-14 years, but if the only way Seattle can win is by cheating, then the victory won’t be as fulfilling as I’ve always hoped it would be.

  50. “why has Seattle had more positive tests for PEDs?”

    Chuck, I could be wrong, but I would suggest that we have more positive tests for PEDs because we have a lot of young inexperienced players, more than other teams, and more than this team has had in the past.

    Experienced players have experience not only with football techniques, etc. (like holding without getting caught), they also have more experience with using supplements plus masking agents to beat the tests.

    All we know is that more Seahawks are getting caught with PEDs. We know nothing about how many players out there are using them successfully without getting caught.

    I’m not happy with this trend either, but I think we are all shooting in the dark here. None of us knows how prevalent the use of banned substances and masking agents are in the NFL. We don’t know how many players are masters at using PEDs and not getting caught. We don’t know how successful or unsuccessful the testing is. All we know is that a few players happened to get caught, and they happened to be inexperienced young players who happened to be Seahawks.

    This is a stain on our team. It is embarassing and it sucks, but I don’t think any of us knows the extent of this issue on our team or any other team. We’re guessing. I’m going to stop posting comments on this topic.

  51. Bobby, yes you’re right, I was mistaken about Wistrom. He did come in before Ruskell.

    Still, Ruskell got some deadwood off the team and brought in some great players. He did a good job at first, before he started drafting a lot of busts. Too bad he and Holmy were never on the same page. I’m happy to forget all about 2008-2009. Terrible years.

  52. loadlock says:

    with this many young players testing positive I wonder how many are actually taking an over the counter drug that just has a small trace of a substance in them that is on the NFL list. I would say that the players should learn what is and isn’t on the list before taking any supplement

  53. Who cares?
    The NFL cheated us out of a Super Bowl … their rules only matter if we get caught.
    Probably a great sign that Irvin plans to come in ready to burn the house down.

  54. bbnate420 says:

    Good lord this thread is full of BS.

    Look, the NFL, NBA, NHL, and MLB are NOT scientific organizations. The fact that they include ANYTHING on their lists of PEDs is proof of NOTHING! Good lord. Why are they concerned about marijuana and heroin? Are you going to claim that they are PEDs. It’s all about PR. Protecting the shield. Yada, yada. I’m fine with them prohibiting things like anabolic steroids that are proven PEDs, but they should have to actually have some proof that something is a PED to ban it. Especially if it is routinely prescribed for other reasons.

    As far as the Olympics, their testing is run by WADA. There is a ton of criticism of WADA and Dr. Wadler, the chump that runs it, in the medical and scientific communities. Feel free to look it up. He makes all kinds of non-scientific assumptions. Including those about the negative effects of anabolic steroids. WADA makes money off of testing people for these organizations. You think maybe that they’re biased about drugs that are claimed to be PEDs? Do you think that maybe they make more money by playing up the “dangers” of these drugs? They have a financial incentive and bias. It’s analogous to companies that treat addictions. They only make money when they treat you. Do you think that gives them a financial incentive to evaluate you as an addict? Especially if someone is court ordered to go there.

    P.S. Lumping marijuana in with alcohol or even Adderall is completely asinine. Feel free to link some scientific articles published in peer-reviewed periodicals that prove physiological damage anywhere close to what occurs with alcohol. And I’m not advocating that children be allowed to use marijuana. Extreme care should be taken in giving children, i.e. anyone whose brain is still growing, any drug. Adderall is started in MUCH lower doses in children.

  55. bbnate420 says:

    Let’s look at it a little closer. 3 of the 6 players were roster bubble guys that are fighting to make the roster. 2 aren’t even on the team anymore. That’s Taua, Guy, and Barbre. We don’t know what anyone tested positive for with any certainty. If it really was a supplement with Guy and Adderall with many of the rest, I don’t really care. If you believe Moffitt and his agent, he had a prescription but didn’t get it approved by the league. Stupid? Yes. Cheating? No.

    And yes, it’s SIX. Sherman had his thrown out. And it WASN’T a technicality. This wasn’t someone getting off due to their Miranda Rights not being read. This was numerous and severe breakdowns of the testing procedure. Those make the results of said test INVALID. If you don’t understand the difference, then you might not be the sharpest tool in the shed.

  56. bbnate420 says:

    This isn’t any of PC’s fault unless it is proven that he is complicit in players taking these or he hasn’t addressed it with the team even after Sherm and BB’s tests came out. These are adults. He can’t follow them home, search their bags, and babysit them. They ultimately make their own decisions. If you have proof that this was directed by the team, then feel free to share it.

    And if you only care because it hurts the team or you don’t care about the drugs given out so that they can get on the field, then your position is no more moral or ethical than someone that doesn’t think this is that big a deal. You just care about how the team winning makes you feel. You don’t want wins sullied by some shared delusion of sportsmanship. You don’t want players missing time regardless of the physical toll it takes on them for the rest of their lives. I don’t like that Irvin will miss time, but if it is for Adderall then I think it’s BS.

  57. Dukeshire says:

    There are dozens of unions that require their members to submit to random drug testing. And on the list of banned substances included are illegal drugs. This is SOP and the NFL and the Player’s Union are no different. Asinine or not, it’s not as if the NFL is out there on their own regarding this.

  58. bbnate420 says:

    Really, Duke? I didn’t say that part of it was asinine. Yes, unions like longshore workers, air traffic controllers, airplane pilots, etc. agree to random drug tests. We could argue about whether some drugs should be on the list or not, but that’s not the point. These are professions were the workers hold the lives of many people in their hands. If a pilot or air traffic controller messes up due to being intoxicated on a drug their mistake could lead to the death of hundreds of people. Are you trying to tell me it’s the same situation with NFL players? They’re actually paid to destroy each other.

    “Lumping marijuana in with alcohol or even Adderall is completely asinine.” That was what I said, and it was in reference to what bobk3333 said.

  59. montanamike2 says:

    This whole thing was a bummer last season as it is now. 4 games seems extreme to me, i’m not defending it in any way but 4 games!
    Steroids i could understand, pot should be a 1 game suspension, Adderall should be about 2 games, at least for you’re first infraction. This was the buzzkill for my summer, i was riding a Seahawks high like it was a wave on the Oregon coast, now we need those first 4 games more than ever.
    Thank God the rest of our team is awesome and i hope we can weather the storm. The NFC WEST is brutal, even the ‘Cards are better this year. I hope we’re hitting our stride when we get back to full force. Will Clemmons ever get back to speed and if so when?

  60. bbnate420 says:

    “If there were no dishonest benefit for taking adderall then no one would be taking Adderall.”

    SkeleTony, that makes zero sense. Have you ever heard of the placebo effect? Obviously not. Do people take vitamin C when they’re sick to make them get better more quickly? You bet. Is there any proof that it works? Nope. Your body can only absorb approx. 120% of your daily allowance in a day. So you’re just making expensive urine when you take large amounts of vitamin C. The assertion that people wouldn’t do something unless it worked is laughable.

  61. Dukeshire says:

    I would argue that, yes. The last think I want, for players safety, is a league full of high and coked out players taking the field. Regardless, I’m ducking out of the rest of this conversation, with due respect.

  62. bbnate420 says:

    Well, I would argue your premise there, but it’s fine if you want to duck out. Coke doesn’t make anyone stronger. They’d be less likely to be able to deliver a big hit IMO because their cognitive processes would be compromised. You have to diagnose a play a lot of times and calculate angles to deliver a big hit. I can’t understand how anyone would think that marijuana, alcohol, heroin, ludes, LSD, mushrooms, etc. would lead to a player being able to deliver more damage to other players. Plus, many here complain about the league legislating out big hits. If you think that’s BS but worry about recreational drugs leading to players being able to hurt each other more, then I don’t know what to say to you.

  63. bbnate420 says:

    Duke, and I wasn’t saying that you were one of the people complaining about the league legislating out big hits. I can’t remember if you have or not. It was meant as a general comment. And I still respect your opinion generally, regardless if we’re miles apart on this issue.

  64. Dukeshire says:

    It’s not just other players’ safety: it’s their own as well. It’s not complicated, at least to me.

    And I’m ducking out because the argument about drugs generally becomes too heated and irrational to have reasonable conversations.

    And I know you weren’t saying I was complaining. Anyway…

  65. Definitely time for PC/JS to address the issues. It would be completely ridiculous to chalk it up to “a league issue”. Yeah, it’s a league issue alright – he Seahawks are that issue. All problems on a team distill upwards to the men in charge. Time for them to explain how these things happen on their watch. Bruce did a great job of copying the email his agent sent to him and posting it as his own, but now it’s time to see what the captains of the franchise have to say to the 12th.

    Frankly, more than anything it’s just embarrassing to have so many suspensions on one team.

  66. bbnate420 says:

    Well, I don’t think it’s the NFL’s job, or any employers job, to be the players’ babysitters. They’re adults. They’re responsible for the substances they ingest and the consequences of such. By that logic, why couldn’t the government just test every person in the US to protect them? And the two drugs that are legal throughout the US, cigarettes and alcohol, kill more people than any of the illegal ones. I drink generally once a week, but I know it’s bad for me. Alcohol is arguably the most physiologically damaging drug out there. It’s bad for practically every system in your body. Nobody can back that claim up with science about marijuana. It’s only legal in Washington and Colorado, though I would bet other states are soon to follow. It seems weird that it’s not in Oregon, and I think California will legalize it soon. And I drink much more often that I use marijuana, so it’s not just about justifying my own behavior. If you think the reason that drugs are either illegal or legal has much to do with logic or the damage they do, I would suggest you research the topic.

  67. bbnate420 says:

    And I wasn’t suggesting that people in jobs like an air traffic controller shouldn’t be allowed to be tested. But there should be the criteria that they are directly responsible for whether or not other people live or die for the testing to be allowed.

    Plenty of people on here talk about drinking and like to drink. If you do, you don’t have much of a leg to stand on when criticizing most other drugs.

  68. thursday says:

    Offensive lines win Super Bowls, as evidenced with the Pats and Saints examples previously mentioned, not necessarily pass rushes. I’m not really worried about this…yet.

  69. thursday says:

    What I meant to add was that I’m more concerned about how our offensive line is going to shape up this year than any of this noise…lol

  70. sluggo42 says:

    Nate you need to step off your all knowing soapbox mate. I am pissed that his actions will affect this team.
    Pot isn’t good for you either, but I’m not going to waste my time searching out any links. I have seen enough evidence throughout the years.

    Just because YOU don’t think adderall should be on the list is irrelevant , the list is what it is. All the players know it, and we watched them miss games last year because of it. Rules are rules.

  71. bbnate420 says:

    sluggo, you don’t know ANYTHING about pot. You think you do. But you’re a retard. You can THINK anything you want, but YOU’RE the one making a claim. That means that YOU have to back it up with evidence if you want anyone with half a brain to believe you. Waiting? Link an article from a peer-reviewed scientific periodical. Oh, you can’t? You’re too stupid to even know what a peer-reviewed periodical is?

  72. bbnate420 says:

    And I don’t think I’m all knowing. What I claim as fact or somewhere close to is at least backed up by some science. Can you say the same? I’m saying that we shouldn’t throw stones when we don’t even know what they did, and we all have effed up as well. If you want to pretend that you haven’t made some significant mistakes on an ANONYMOUS blog then fine, but I bet you’re full of shite.

  73. bbnate420 says:

    BTW, sluggo, it’s called the Serenity Prayer.

    “Give me the strength to accept the things I cannot change,
    The courage to change the things I can,
    and the wisdom to know the difference.”

    That;s what can get you through wigging out about something you can’t control. Relax.

  74. sluggo42 says:

    wow dude, you are even more full of yourself then I thought..

  75. I hate hate hate that the Seahawks are in the news in such a negative way. And I hate that Pete Carrol is once again at the center of a cheating scandal. Once again it would appear that the HC is looking the other way while cheating occurs with his players. The media and fans have every right to criticise Carrol and the Seahawks.

    But ultimately it is the responsibility of each individual player to maintain their integrity, to play fair and within the rules, and to know every ingredient they put in their body.

    The NFL is hypercompetitive, and I think its fair to assume that Pete Carrol’s “Always Compete” mantra and philosophy is partly responsible for the prevalence of PED’s on this team. I say partly, and only partly, becuase EVERY team is competitive and there is always tremendous pressure on the players to perform, to keep their jobs and earn their salary etc. However, with the massive emphasis on competition that Carrol has instituted, the pressure to perform is only magnified, as is the temptation to cheat, to hold onto their job or increase their performance by any means necessary. Its a sad side affect, and its probably impossible to ensure that every single player refrain from using PED’s.

    That said, there have been simply too many PED busts in Seattle since Carrol took over–so far all of them supposedly for Adderall, though that cannot be proven–for this not to raise all kinds of red flags, especially in light of Carrols quick departure from USC and the stuff that came out about his tenure there after he jumped ship for Seattle.

    I am a firm believer in personal responsibility, so Im placing most of the blame on the individual players; but Carrol is certainly not blameless. He needs to do something to bring this under control.

    Those who insisted that up till now each Adderall/PED case on the Hawks was an isolated incident, and not a symptom of a deeper problem should be eating some crow about now. It also makes it all the more likely that Browner–and yes, even Sherm who still insists he never took PED’s–were guilty and knew exactly what they were doing. There are just too many busts for this not to be a serious problem.

    And just as with other teams, the guys who have gotten away with it likely vastly outnumber the ones caught, so that too is something nasty to chew on.

    Irvin I can forgive, same as I will Moffit and Browner and the rest.(Especially since he posted that emotional apology on twitter; the agent-written official one sucked; I mean, seriously, if you’ve heard Irvin talk you knew damned well he didnt write a word of the official apology.But the twitter one was the only PED apology I have ever seen from a player where they admitted doing it deliberatly and expressing not only regret but true remorse.)

    IM not sure when Irvin tested positive, but it was probably late in the season or in the playoffs, when he was in the middle of his dry-spell–the rookie wall–and pressure on him to earn his draft status was intense. That doesn excuse it–and its not like he was gonna lose his job if he struggled–but I can understand it. Certianly I can understand succumbing to temptation better in his case than if Sherman did the same thing.

    But it has to stop. Getting busted hurts the team far more than having a bad game or a bad month. And Carrol is where the buck stops, its up to him to contain this mess and clean it up.

    I want a SB win as bad as anyone, but not this way. I want it clean, without bad calls going for or against us, and without cheating. Or I dont want a win at all.

  76. bbnate420 says:

    Still waiting for you to post anything of substance that even defies what I said. Sadly, you can’t. Your gut feeling isn’t equal to science. You don’t sway anyone with your BS. Still waiting for a logical retort. I think I could wait forever most likely. Sadly, “I know something but I don’t want to try and prove it”, paraphrasing, doesn’t convince anyone that has an IQ of over 40. Try again.

  77. sluggo42 says:

    http://www.drugabuse.gov/about-nida/directors-page/messages-director/2013/03/marijuanas-lasting-effects-brain

    Here is one after a 5 second search..

    Get over yourself dude, you’re really starting to come across are a total jackass

  78. sluggo42 says:

    http://drthurstone.com/what-latest-top-cannabis-research-tells-us/

    the next in line. There are hundreds if not thousands of articles on the harmful effects of POT

    Maybe you should go smoke some more, and keep telling yourself its ok…

    Its funny that a guy who is as smart as you are takes such a funny place to make a stance…

  79. sluggo42 says:

    And you sound just like your hero Uncle Joe, throwing out IQ numbers… hhaha

  80. bbnate420 says:

    Sluggo, you just make yourself look like more and more of a pathetic, retarded chump. I said a PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC PERIODICAL. Apparently you’re too stupid to know what that is. The first supposed “study” tested people that started in adolescence. I said that children shouldn’t use it. Again, try to learn to read, Cleatus. I could find internet posts confirming any stupid shit you want. It means nothing.

  81. sluggo42 says:

    Wow Nate, is anyone on the planet as smart as you are? Who gives a rats ass about your peer reviewed periodical… What I posted proved your assumption that pot isn’t harmful was incorrect.
    Why don’t you ask me to post a peer reviewed periodical that the sky is blue?

    And your personal attacks and name calling is a bit top heavy too. Seriously Nate, take a joint break mate….

  82. bbnate420 says:

    Whatever, idiot. It has nothing to do with me being smart, dumb, or whatever. You made a claim. I asked for ACTUAL evidence. You’re too stupid to understand what that is. You’d be laughed out of clown college with your 1st grade logic. Peer-reviewed work is the basis of science. I’m sorry you’re both too stupid to know what that is or know it’s value.

    Now rant on, retard. You’re right. I just can’t match your intellect.

  83. CDN_C_Hawk says:

    It doesn’t matter whether it is a , “aspirin” , a “joint” , a “rail” , or a ” capsule” , if you don’t agree with the rules, then expect to pay the penalty for breaking them. Irvin has shown genuine remorse for his actions which I can forgive,

    http://www.smokingmusket.com/2013/5/18/4342318/bruce-irvin-gives-the-normal-apology-then-gets-real-on-twitter

    Remember, when the speed limit in the US was at 55, and how many got tickets going 60 ,and cried bullshit, we all felt this was a stupid, a cash grab, but it was a rule many broke and had to pay for. I have to agree with Chuck_Easton on this. We dislike the cops for busting us when we break rules, but they aren’t the ones that make the rules, so it is up to the NFLPA to approach the issue of what is a PED and what is not, with the League.

    As for why, in the last 2 years, the Hawks have so many incidents, I will blame PC, but not for turning a blind eye, but from his, adopting, competition at every position. These young guys come into camp, and are told every position is available, so there will be ones, using anything they can to their advantage, to be one of those 53. Once there, collecting a pay check, they can accept 4 game suspension, compared to being out on the street. Merely my opinion

  84. sluggo42 says:

    Here is an article that was externally peer reviewed.
    http://www.jabfm.org/content/24/4/452.full#sec-15

    Here is a paragraph:
    The Harms of Cannabis

    Physical and Psychiatric Effects
    Among naive users, cannabis smoking often leads to adverse effects. Physical symptoms include increased heart rate and fluctuations in blood pressure15; psychomotor sequelae include euphoria, anxiety, psychomotor retardation, and impairment of cognition and memory.16 The estimated lethal dose for humans is between 15 g and 70 g.3 When compared with cigarette smoke, cannabis contains a similar array of detrimental and carcinogenic compounds, some of which are present even at higher concentrations.17 Among chronic users, population studies have associated cannabis use with decreased pulmonary function, chronic obstructive airway diseases, and pulmonary infections,18 although data may be confounded by concomitant tobacco smoking and other social factors. In vitro and in vivo animal studies have demonstrated mutagenic effects of cannabis smoke, and precancerous pulmonary pathology as seen in tobacco smokers has been described in cannabis users.19 Nevertheless, there is still inconsistency from the published literature regarding an increased risk for upper respiratory tract cancer caused by cannabis smoking.3,18 Various reports have associated cannabis with cardiac arrhythmias,20,21 coronary insufficiency22–24 and myocardial infarction.25,26 A retrospective cross-sectional study revealed a 4.8-times increased risk of developing myocardial infarction within the first hour after smoking cannabis. Earlier data from population studies27,28 and meta-analysis29 have associated cannabis smoking with low birth weight,29 which is maybe confounded by cigarette smoking and socioeconomic status and is not supported by more recent studies.30,31 Finally, the controversial link of cannabis use and psychosis has found more support in recent publications.32–34

    The point is Nate, that your superior brain isn’t getting is that in a very general tone I stated that pot isn’t good for you. I didn’t say that there wasn’t medical uses, and with that I agree that there are.

    While pot has many positive things, it still has plenty of question marks.

    The last and main point is that you have just shown yourself to be a total jackass with a serious superiority complex. Your constant referring to me as a retard is deeply insensitive as my nephew is mentally retarded and he has ten times the sensitivity as you have.
    I know you think you just took me to the woodshed with your superior intellect, and I have no problem admitting that you are a pretty smart guy, but you exposed yourself to be what you are. A know-it-all jackass.

    Now, go ahead and rip me up again and tell me how big of a retard I am again…

  85. bbnate420 says:

    You’re too fucking stupid to read your own “evidence”. Increased heart rate? So does caffeine and standing up. Many things increase heart rate. That doesn’t mean they are harmful. Fluctuations in BP? You mean like everyone has in normal life? Yes, smoking marijuana can slightly effect your BP temporarily. So can a million other things. It has to be a significant, long term effect on your BP to effect your health. Try again, stupid. Lethal dosage of 15g and 70g? I think 15g is too low based on what I’ve researched, but do you know how much that is? Is it possible? Feel free to link me any credible article about someone dying from a marijuana overdose. Not possible in reality. It takes too much. It’s theoretically possible, just like it’s theoretically possible to overdose on chocolate. Or ANYTHING!

  86. bbnate420 says:

    Denaturing marijuana produces both carbon monoxide and tar. Theoretically, they are bad for you. That’s nothing compared to what’s in cigarettes. The amount of tar and carbon monoxide is the question. Link a study proving the adverse pulmonary effects of smoking marijuana. And that doesn’t matter, you idiot. You can use vaporizers that heat the marijuana until it releases the THC but doesn’t denature it. Or you can ingest it. You DON’T have to smoke it, RETARD!

  87. bbnate420 says:

    Sluggo, if you’re just saying it’s not GOOD for you, I agree. It doesn’t have a positive effect for the vast majority of people. I just don’t think it’s proven that it’s that bad for you. Especially if used infrequently. Despite my tag, I smoke 3-4 times a year. And that’s in a State where it’s legal. I think, and is backed up by science, that it’s better for you to smoke marijuana, or especially ingest it another way, than it is to drink alcohol or do most other drugs.

  88. sluggo42 says:

    Wow, you still at this?

    Well I guess you must be right because its a legal drug… Oh wait… Not meeting YOUR criteria doesn’t matter to me, I presented enough to satisfy myself..

    On a personal note, I told you that my nephew was retarded, both physically and mentally and I found it pretty insensitive of you to continue throwing that word as an insult to me. I know we all slip up on that one, but you decided to make it personal and emphasize the issue with capital letters. So I now find you to be even a bigger jackass then I thought, and I take personal issue with you over that. Apparently you learned early on that calling people names is a winning strategy.

    You think you won this battle, but you lost the war mate.

  89. bbnate420 says:

    I have an aunt that is mentally retarded, but you sir are a RETARD!

  90. sluggo42 says:

    Ok biotch, as you wish

  91. blowwad says:

    Seahawks have seven incidents (Sherman won his appeal) while the Redskins have 7 suspensions.

    It’s also worth noting that 3 of the seven suspension involving the Redskins were for marijuana and one of them was for a guy who actually had a prescription.

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