Seahawks Insider

Monday Morning QB (Tuesday’s version) replay

Post by Eric Williams on Sep. 25, 2012 at 11:07 am with 93 Comments »
September 25, 2012 12:55 pm

We well get started at noon today. Plenty of things to discuss.

Categories:
Chat
Leave a comment Comments → 93
  1. I’m not able to make it (I’m at work), but just wanted to say:

    1. Russell Wilson still seems to be godawful. (130 yards and 2 TD’s on 10 completions and 21 attempts, not even bringing up the pick that was brought back due to a questionable roughing the passer call)

    2. Darrellict Bevell reallllllly needs to quit being so conservative. This offense looks anemic at absolute best. I’m not sure if that’s why I’m so down on Russell still. That offensive performance will not win you any games on the road.

    3. The defense is the best in the NFL right now. If there was an offense that could sustain drives, this defense would average less than 10 points against for the season – guaranteed.

    4. The NFC West has 3 of the top 5 defenses in it (aside from BAL and HOU). That’s a crazy thought.

    5. Am I the only one that saw disgraceful amounts of holding in the 2nd half against the entire defense, but namely Clemons?

  2. Strategicdust says:

    Fair to say that the Seahawks will continue seeing teams stack the box against them until Wilson shows he can beat them through the air? Is there really that much concern that Wilson is going to turn the ball over?

  3. If there is, there’s no reason Flynn isn’t starting.

  4. mclaughlin59 says:

    we’ll take the win,but it was sorta embassing. we’ll be seeing that replay for the rest of our LIVES!

  5. sluggo42 says:

    RDub will only continue to get better. Did you not see the strike to Rice to set us up for the winning play? As he continues to grow more comfortable in the pocket and throw more rockets like that, we will become higher scoring as you hope, and I agree, it will be very hard for other teams to score more than 10 pts a game. He will have growing pains as he is a rookie, but he hasn’t hurt us yet either. He needs to get a little better “Pocket presence” to give the WR’s that extra step, and then trust his smoking gun, because the boy can chuck the rock

  6. MEhawkfan says:

    This-

    He will have growing pains as he is a rookie, but he hasn’t hurt us yet either. He needs to get a little better “Pocket presence” to give the WR’s that extra step, and then trust his smoking gun, because the boy can chuck the rock

    I always thought Flynn should be the starter and Wilson should sit a season. But OTJT is the way Carroll decided to proceed, so there will be growing pains, but I do believe Wilson is up to the task. He’ll improve with experience.

  7. HawkfaninMT says:

    I am not a Wilson Apologist… I don’t care who starts as long as there is a W at the end.

    But i feel like he is being put at slight disadvantage because most of the times he is throwing the ball, the defense knows he is throwing the ball. meaning if it is 3rd and long, he is probably throwing it. If there is 48 secs on the clock and they have no time outs, he is probably throwing it. But how many times did he get to throw it on 2nd and 2 off play action?

  8. sluggo42 says:

    yes, too predictable right now, need to mix it up better. play action is good, throw it a LOT at the beginning of the game and then run the hell out of em, then throw some more… I’m with ya there

  9. HeinieHunter says:

    Why is everyone on Carroll’s case? He and JS have be exceptional in the draft and making personnel deals. And this years draft, denounced by all the experts, is looking better and better. We have a killer defense, a hammering running game, and good special teams. Give Wilson a chance to grow (while we win ugly). Is he the QB of the future? Time will tell but I think he will improve as the year goes on. I do like Flynn but since when is he the second coming of John Elway? He hasn’t done anything yet to show that if he was the QB we would have a great pass offense. He could be getting picked regularly for all anyone knows. Why not give PCJS and Wilson a little slack. We are 2-1 and there are only three teams ahead of us at 3-0. Just sain…

  10. mojjonation says:

    KJR just put out a stat. Wilson was 6-8, 70 yards, and a TD on 1st down. Why run-run-pass when you have a guy who is having this kind of success on first down? 2nd down PA would kill in this instance with Beast or Hulk in the backfield. If that fails, you have 3rd and short with Beast or Hulk in the backfield and our line, it should be a first down.

    I will still say Bevell is a huge aprt of the problem since he was a nobody at Minnesota until Favre showed up, and that is with AP in the backfield. His pass attack (if you want to call it that), without Favre, was never better than 13th, and averaged 19th, with 3 years at 25th and lower. We may never know Wilsons true potential as long as Bevell is calling the plays. Until Wilson is forced to throw 40 times a game (which will probably never happen since they will run the ball on 2nd or third and 50 anayway), we will truly never know if Wilson can shoulder the load. While Flynn may or may not be a better throwing QB, he for sure is not as mobile. This leads me to believe that there would have been more sacks on Flynn than Wilson. There is no proof, but since everyone like to play the guessing game, I’ll go there.

    No sacks in the second half is because they stopped calling holds on GB at halftime. I don’t think GB had any false starts either while our first round draft pick from a few years ago had two and a couple of holds I believe. And that’s just what was called. Okung left early on a few other plays and they let it go.

  11. ChrisHolmes says:

    Picking the right players is only half the battle in the NFL. You actually have to coach them, create schemes and develop game plans.

    I love what PC and JS have done picking guys and building our roster. I love what they’ve done, scheme-wise, on the defensive side of the ball.

    But offensively, we’re horrible. Our players are good enough, I think, to put up some points. But I fault the coaching staff for PREDICTABLE play calling and an UNIMAGINATIVE scheme that doesn’t do anything to get WR’s open. Add to that our rookie QB, who I think is being coached not to turnover the ball at all costs, and we’ve got on anemic offense.

    I think part of the problem here is that PC thinks about offense the way he thinks about defense. He figures if he just keeps acquiring better and better players at each position, they’ll make plays. But offense is so different from defense. You have to scheme more… It’s not enough to sign a guy like Rice in Free Agency and then expect him to simply dominate the competition. You have to scheme to get guys open…

    Our offensive philosophy is basic, unimaginative and predictable. And part of that, I think, is because Tom Cable has too much input. He’s an OL-minded guy who just wants to grind it out on the ground. Hello! It’s 2012. The NFL is a passing league. And we just drafted a kid who has a live, accurate arm.

    I know it’s going to take time to develop Wilson, but I believe in this kid. But you can’t develop him if all you ask him to do is hand off on 1st and 2nd down, don’t turn the ball over, and only throw on 3rd and long when everyone is expecting it. That’s not a recipe for growth at the QB position.

    I fear for Wilson’s development if our offensive minds continue to think in Cro-Magnon style.

  12. hawkdawg says:

    Radeon–

    Green Bay’s OL put on an absolute holding clinic in the second half. Guess the refs were tired of the sacks…

  13. “Why is everyone on Carroll’s case?”

    Because he’s the head coach and responsible for having a disciplined team. Penalties hurt.

  14. Three solid opponents, three solid games by the Hawks… Silly game yesterday by the ref’s, but we were clearly competitive, dominant in the first half… I’m liking what we are getting to see…

  15. I’d like to know how many of the Seahawks fans who believed Golden Tate didn’t catch the ball simultaneously were actually hoping that the replay official would overturn the call on the field. I certainly wasn’t.

  16. “Three solid opponents, three solid games by the Hawks… Silly game yesterday by the ref’s, but we were clearly competitive, dominant in the first half… I’m liking what we are getting to see… ”

    Exactly. Great start for our squad. So what if we caught a break at the end, just playing a top-tier team like GB that tough is a confidence builder for our team.

  17. Sparky12 says:

    Bevell stinks! Too rigid with his game plan, and does not use his offensive players to their best strengths, as Gus and Pete do with the defensive squad. He looks spooked and confused half the time on the side lines when his play calling is stinking it up.

    Pete & John: Bevell needs to go bye-bye next year. We need the offensive equivalent of Gus Bradley calling the shots.

  18. NYHawkFan says:

    I’m already sick of all the news reports about GB getting jobbed. It’s a good thing that Wisconsin has a lot of cheese to go with their whine!

  19. Hammajamma says:

    Sometimes I come here just to chuckle at people calling for someone’s head. Carroll is undisciplined, Cable too enamoured with Sweezy, Bevell unimaginative. I think it’s fair to say we’re going to have to be a little patient. Clearly there is more talent on the defensive side of the ball and they’re going to have to play to their strengths, aka Marshawn, while limiting turnovers and developing the passing game.

    Got a ways to go, but I’m confident this will be a more varied offensive team ten games from now.

  20. SeahawkFan12 says:

    “Pete & John: Bevell needs to go bye-bye next year. We need the offensive equivalent of Gus Bradley calling the shots.”
    Agreed…and while thy are at it, they better ensure Bradley stays put because it won’t be long before he will start getting courted for HC opportunities.

  21. freedom_X says:

    In the last years of Holmgren, many commenters on this blog called Holmgren predictable and boring as a playcaller. If the O doesn’t execute, you’re predictable, even if you’re Mike Martz. It’s a knee-jerk response.

    Anything unimaginative about the play that got Tate open for the 41 yard TD?

    Pete Carroll says he’s the one responsible for the conservative, run-heavy playcalling. Carroll says it’s part of his plan, that he thinks he has the defense and running game to win these type of games for now while Wilson and the rest of the offense gel. It’s why Carroll pulled the plug on Jeremy Bates as O-coordinator after 1 season.

    The point he does make that resounds with me is that they’ve kept the turnovers low – one turnover in that game last night would have killed Seattle. (on the other side, despite the pressure, Seattle wasn’t able to force a single turnover – you have to give huge credit to Aaron Rodgers for not throwing any picks or fumbling despite the sacks.

    So expect the run-heavy offense to continue. Until some offensive player steps up and makes something happen, it’s pointless to just call for deep throws. If the throws don’t work, the same fans will scream about not running more with a powerful back like Lynch and a physical run-blocking line.

  22. ChrisHolmes says:

    I don’t know that it’s all Bevell’s fault though. From the chat today with Eric it sounds like Cable and Pete have a LOT of input/command/control with the offense.

    I mean, how many of us have been in jobs where we couldn’t do our very best because management had us in handcuffs? I know I’ve been there.

    I’m not willing to “call for someone’s head” until I can see clearly what the breakdown of responsibility is like so we can really see who is responsible for the decisions. Sure, Bevell calls the plays on game day, but if he’s staring at 2nd-and-7 and Cable or PC is in his ear saying, “Call Lynch’s Number” then you can’t blame Bevell for that.

    I’d really like to know how much freedom Bevell has in installing the offense, creating an attacking game plan, and how much leeway he has on game days to make calls. Because if the guy is being handcuffed, that’s not on him.

  23. freedom_X says:

    Gus Bradley being praised???!!! For the history of this blog, that’s now 2 comments for Bradley, 1000+ votes against! How many people here have been calling Bradley predictable and unimaginative since 2009?

  24. Mr. Happy’s goal seems to be in the mold of Marty Schottenheimer. He wants to run the ball and play good defense. He wants a good record and then, unintentionally, to lose in the play-offs (his play-off win came here not solely b/c a RB had a run for the ages, but b/c his QB outdueled Drew Brees – something that won’t happen here if they keep the training wheels on Wilson). I know the formula has worked before, but in the NFL these days you’ve gotta be able to air it out once in awhile. The run, run, throw the ball away on 3rd down thing is really old. I can understand wanting to be run heavy, but when you’re the worst passing offense in the NFL – I doubt that’s going to get the job done if your goal is to win a Super Bowl. However, if you’re happy living the Marty Schottenheimer lifestyle, then by all means, keep the run, run, incomplete pass recipe going.

  25. Hawksince77 says:

    A couple of quick comments:

    1 – the game was decided by the officials, on both sides of the ball, with the exception of the final play. As has been noted elsewhere, and by official NFL review, the call made on the field was defensible, if not out-right correct per the rules. In other words, it could have been called either way on the field, and probably not reversed in either case. And it turns out, possession in the endzone IS reviewable, and was reviewed by a non-replacement ref, and the call on the field upheld. That controversy should be over. The truly terrible calls that ended/kept drives alive for both teams should recieve all critical attention.

    2 – the first half was nearly perfect for Seattle. Total domination on defense, and the long pass play for a TD we have been waiting for. Perfect.

    3 – for all the bitching and moaning about the final play, both teams are to blame. If Seattle maintains a drive or two, the game takes on an entirely different complexion, and Seattle likely doesn’t have to depend on a final second miracle play. On the other side of the ball, all GB has to do on their final drive in the shadow of their own endzone in gain a first down to end the game in their favor. What do they do? Fumble the ball and almost lose posession, even when it’s obvious Seattle is selling out to stop the run they continue to hand the ball off. You have the best QB in the league and some of the finest WRs: on second or third down, throw the ball. Not only do you make a first down, odds are you score. While Seattle’s defense gets the credit for forcing the punt, GB should be hanging their collective heads in shame for allowing it.

    4 – Seattle is one dropped pass away from being 3-0 having started a rookie QB, and that against 3 quality opponents. From the tone of fan comments all across the board, you’d think the team was 0-3 with zero prospects for any future success.

    5 – The collective hang-wringing is truly odd. As has been pointed out, for whatever reason, very little has yet been seen from the passing game (although the collective numbers, while not large in terms of yards and TDs, are respectable). They have two impressive wins and one very close (and come to find out) respectable loss. Will anyone be surprised if they beat NE at home in a few weeks? What do you think Tom Brady and Belichek think about coming to Seattle to play?

    6 – Pete Carroll has done exactly what he said he’d do: improve the pass rush, and feature the run game. As far as Wilson’s inability to find an open WR in several drop-backs, it’s hard without analyzing all-22 why that is. Could it be the quality of the defense? Or the inability of the WRs? Or the predicitability of the play-calling or route-running? Or is Wilson missing reads, making poor decisions? Regardless, he’s not throwing picks, and he has scrambled for first downs on occasion. For what it’s worth, PC has made it clear that he is slowly bringing Wilson along, and would do exactly the same with Flynn. He also pointed out in his radio interview this morning that Wilson now has more game experience (3 starts) than Flynn.

    7 – For those calling for Flynn to start: really? You think Flynn makes that 22-yard strike to Rice to set up the final TD? You think Flynn avoids the pass rush of Arizona, Ware, Mathews? You think Flynn has any better options running routes, or better plays called? The decision has been made; Wilson is the starter. Get over it.

    8 – Three times now (twice last night) Wilson has led come-from-behind drives that ended with passes in the endzone for potential wins, giving his team opportunities under very high pressure. No game-ending fumbles; no running out of bounds on 4th down (remember those fine moments?) Multiple 3rd/4th down passes that were either completed, thrown away, or hit his receiver in the hands (or would have, in the case last night when Tate went up and deflected the ball intended for Rice). I am not sure what more you can ask from your QB.

    9 – For the first time this season, Seattle plays a non-elite NFL team in the Rams (the Cards ranked 7th, the Cowboys 12th and the Packers currently ranked 4th). Seattle should dominate, and perhaps they will take the opportunity to open up the play-book for the offense. That would be nice to see, in preparation for meeting the Patriots in a few weeks.

    10 – One last comment: glad they’re not playing the Texans or the Falcons. Not sure that Seattle matches up well with those two. Against the pass-first teams, PC has built a contender (which is why I am optimistic with NE comes to town). Against a team that can run, throw and play defense, not so much, at least until Seattle opens up its own passing game, and demonstrates the ability to effectively throw the ball down the field.

  26. chrisj122 says:

    I give Pete credit for recognizing that our D prior was slow and undersized replacing those players with big fast guys who can play.

    But on offense we have been a joke! Our passing in LAST in the NFL, unacceptable! Something has to change or D can only carry this team so far.

    Our D should expect our Offense to score in the 20point range consistently. 1TD a game and some field goals is not going to cut it, or even last night 2TD’s is not enough.
    This sorry passing game needs fixing now, while our season still has meaning!

  27. @BobbyK – but you would agree that it makes some sense when you’re starting a rookie QB, and have a great defense and run game, right? I love a good passing game too, and will be happy when they open up the playcalling too, but I do understand the logic, and you can’t argue too much with the results so far.

    If Braylon hangs onto a catchable ball in week 1, we’re 3-0, and the talk of the league . . .

  28. “Seattle is one dropped pass away from being 3-0 having started a rookie QB, and that against 3 quality opponents. From the tone of fan comments all across the board, you’d think the team was 0-3 with zero prospects for any future success.”

    I know, it’s one thing to complain when you’re in the middle of a no-hope 3-13 season, but things are looking pretty good right now. When I looked at the schedule before the year began, I absolutely checked this game off as a loss. I know they don’t seem to be totally in rhythm right now, but the Pack were 15-1 last season. They’re basically as good as it gets in the NFL, and they needed this win to avoid a lousy start to the year. Basically, our defense didn’t let them get it.

  29. I also realize that they are a correct call on the last play of a game from being 1-2. If Browner would have gotten pushed to the ground by Nelson on the last play, we’d be flipping out.

    The fact of the matter is that five teams in the NFL are starting rookie QBs and yet we are last in the league in zipping it around. I’m not suggesting in any way to recklessly sling it around the field, but the leash on Wilson is a bit smothering. If he can’t handle it (and I’m not suggesting he can’t – he hasn’t been really allowed to try yet), then maybe he shouldn’t be starting.

  30. MEhawkfan says:

    Hawksince77-

    You made some excellent points. Carroll has been pretty transparent regarding his plan for this football team; things seem to be playing out about how he wants them to. They are bringing Wilson along slowly. As he matures as an NFL QB so will the offense become less pedestrian.

    I appreciate your comments regarding the final play of the game. As I stated in an earlier post, there were 60 minutes of football and several calls and non-calls that impacted the game. The final call was just that–the final call, but it wasn’t the “single determining factor” of the game. It is disappointing the effort the Hawks put forth to win this game has been lost in all the controversy.

  31. freedom_X says:

    Can’t ignore the record the other way – one correct officiating call, and Seattle is 1-2. A balanced team with a decent offense and a strong defense is what will keep things from hinging on one play.

    Seattle’s offensive ineptitude, *at home*, almost wasted a terrific defensive effort. More importantly, it doesn’t seem to be getting any better so far. I’m optimistic that the passing offense will improve, but there aren’t actually any logical reasons why it would other than Wilson getting more experience and maybe the line getting better in pass pro.

    Doug Baldwin’s return to full health is the only positive change that I can project to inject life into the passing game. Maybe if the line blocks better, Zach Miller can run more routes. That’s it.

  32. MEhawkfan says:

    “The fact of the matter is that five teams in the NFL are starting rookie QBs… ”

    And everyone of them except the Seahawks has a losing record. Admittedly, none of the other teams with rookie QB’s has the Hawks defense, which might have something to do with the “short leash.” So while it is frustrating to watch a somewhat restricted offense, perhaps for now, it is for the best.

  33. Hawksince77 says:

    For those of you pondering Seattle’s QB situation, consider what we’d be thinking if Wilson had Rodgers first half: sacked 8 times, minimal yardage, no points. We’d be screaming for Flynn (some of us, anyway). Do you hear any such noise in Green Bay? Why not? He’s supposedly the best QB in the game right now, and he got whipped. Even in the second half he didn’t light it up. So why not the criticism?

    Because he’s already earned respect, and demonstrated his ability. After that, they take into account the context (the actual point of this comment): they can recognize a superior defense when they see it, and understand why his game was limited.

    Some Seattle fans, on the other hand, are ready to set Wilson down in favor of Flynn without considering the context, namely, the nature of the teams Wilson has faced, and how he has been coached to play. He is doing EXACTLY what PC wants him to do. As PC stated this morning, if you want to blame somebody, blame him.

  34. MEhawkfan says:

    I think penalties have also played a prominent role. The Hawks offense is anything but seasoned and cannot afford to be playing from a down and distance deficit. If discipline improves on the line perhaps we’ll see more sustained drives.

  35. Hawksince77 says:

    MEhawkfan, you’re right: the penalties were/are a huge issue for the offense. The difference between 3rd and 3 and 3rd and 8 is huge, and as I recall, occurred on more than one occasion, really making it tough on the offense.

  36. For a team that wants to run the ball and play good defense, you cannot have all of the stupid, undisciplined penalties that we’re having over and over and over and over again, especially when you have a rookie QB that you’re not letting throw the ball (especially on early downs). Some of the stupid penalties are putting our offense in 3rd and longer situations and we know the play call will be more conservative than the Holmgren draw on 3rd and long. We could just as well punt on 3rd down so we could punt again if the snap was muffed.

  37. MEhawkfan says:

    So funny you should mention that. At one point last night, when it was third and thirty-seven, I did think “they might as well punt now.”

  38. bbnate420 says:

    I propose a 3-way trade. The Hawks trade yesterdays win to GB. GB sends 50,000 cheeseheads to the Stealers. And the Stealers send us the rings and trophy from SB 40. Any takers?

    Good to know that Overreaction Tuesday is just as hyperbolic as Overreaction Monday. :-)

    People across the nation will look down on the Hawks because of this, at least in GB. We still call Pitt the Stealers even though the refs were the ones that stole the game and not them. Who cares though? The national media has never liked Southern Alaska and they won’t now.

  39. “I’d like to know how many of the Seahawks fans who believed Golden Tate didn’t catch the ball simultaneously were actually hoping that the replay official would overturn the call on the field”

    I did, well sort-of did. Like many people here, I want to see this team get respect and recognition on the national stage. That win yesterday gives us anything but that. People will say the only way we can pull out a difficult win is with bad officiating. You can analyze this game to death about what was called and not called by the refs, but all the rest of the nation sees is a single play. That game will forever have an asterisk attached to it in people minds. I would much rather be known as a team that wins despite bad officiating rather than because of it. And in everyone’s mind outside of Seattle, we won because of bad officiating. I say to hell with the critics, we will give GB the freakin win, and we will still get to the playoffs without it.

  40. “And everyone of them except the Seahawks has a losing record.”

    And you can’t overlook that we’ve played 3 solid teams. That matters too.

    “For a team that wants to run the ball and play good defense, you cannot have all of the stupid, undisciplined penalties that we’re having over and over and over and over again, especially when you have a rookie QB that you’re not letting throw the ball (especially on early downs).”

    Can’t argue with that; it’s very frustrating. And it’s true that 3rd and 8 is a very different situation than 3rd and 3 for this team, as we are currently running it. So what do you do do prevent them? I don’t completely buy that it’s Carroll’s lack of discipline causing it – - not that I have a better explanation. We do have aggressive DB’s so PI’s and illegal contacts are going to happen – no excuse/logic for the false starts.

  41. Dukeshire says:

    From where is all this Wilson defending coming from? That is, where is all this supposed outcry for Flynn to be starting that demands the multiple Wilson defense posts, the past 24 hours? Is it an imagined under-the-surface uprising that has yet to reveal itself, or has there been a real and loud “Flynn now” argument being made? Because as far as this blog goes, the Wilson apologists are *far* louder than any Flynn support. It’s pecular to me, and it’s a genuine question.

  42. “Like many people here, I want to see this team get respect and recognition on the national stage.”

    Make the playoffs, and win in the playoffs, and you get that respect and recognition. It’s the only way you get it. Wins like this one help you get there.

  43. “That is, where is all this supposed outcry for Flynn to be starting that demands the multiple Wilson defense posts, the past 24 hours?”

    There have been several posters hinting and outright saying that Flynn should be starting. And to me, it doesn’t make sense when we’re sitting at 2-1, having been in all three games, against three tough opponents. Especially, when the player in question is a rookie, who has not been terrible (albeit, not being asked to do that much), and logic would tell you that he’s only going to get better with more game experience.

  44. Dukeshire says:

    Hinting… That’s what I thought. As for outright saying it: few and far between. Look, I understand the argument against, just not the volume. Anyway…

  45. bbnate420 says:

    Totally agree, pdway. Benching RW would be completely moronic at this time.

  46. Hawksince77 says:

    Dukeshire,

    There have been many calling for Flynn to start, including entire articles to that effect elsewhere. As far as this blog is concerned, just look at the first 3 posts at the top, the third one reading in its entirety:

    “If there is, there’s no reason Flynn isn’t starting.”

    That was prefaced in that posters original post with:

    “1. Russell Wilson still seems to be godawful. (130 yards and 2 TD’s on 10 completions and 21 attempts, not even bringing up the pick that was brought back due to a questionable roughing the passer call)”

    Point is, we are not simply imagining it.

  47. Hawksince77 says:

    And if I had to, I could dig up a ton more, both here and in other places, calling for Flynn to start either right away, or in the near future. If memory serves, Eric was asked something like that in the chat above.

  48. Hawksince77 says:

    But then again, we hear, see and remember an awful lot of what we want to hear, see and remember.

  49. Hawksince77 says:

    And finally, Eric posed this question right after the game:

    “2. It’s going to be asked and debated and argued over and over again. Russell Wilson or Matt Flynn? (try and be logical if at all possible)”

    I’d say there has been plenty of ‘start Flynn’ sentiment being expressed in cyber world.

  50. bbnate420 says:

    “1. Russell Wilson still seems to be godawful. (130 yards and 2 TD’s on 10 completions and 21 attempts, not even bringing up the pick that was brought back due to a questionable roughing the passer call)”

    “If there is, there’s no reason Flynn isn’t starting”

    There were a number of people in the chat talking about Flynn playing. Not hinting!

  51. Flynn would give this team, this year, a better chance to win. Period. I hope it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.

    However, I’m okay with the Wilson stuff if they deem him that much better than Flynn in the long term. I’m fine if they want to take one step back (for now) if it means taking more steps forward than they think Flynn could take them eventually. That’s called long term thinking and that’s what you need to do sometimes. It’s frustrating in the here and now, but if it is for the best in the future, then lets do it.

    But don’t totally screw Wilson over by having the handcuffs on him while he’s trying to play the position. I understand the notion of training wheels, but don’t get one of those big locks you see on biclycles that even a professional thief couldn’t steal for Wilson. And if you think he needs one of those locks, then let him sit and learn until you’re not ready to actually let him play a little bit.

    If we had a CB that was getting burnt regularly and the team had a winning record, I wouldn’t be opposed to changing starters there either. But, again, this is unique since it’s the QB position and you can’t really play yo-yo with this spot.

    I know Wilson supposedly has all this game experience from college, but I don’t buy all of that either. He played baseball in the spring and summer and never fully focused on football. That’s not being a hater, it’s understanding the facts.

    I like the kid and he’s got room to grow and I believe he will grow, but I’m not saying to bench him… what I am trying to say is let the damn kid play the QB position a little bit more.

  52. Dukeshire says:

    Hawksince77 – Okay. It all feels a bit contrived to me, from wherever it stems.

  53. Hawksince77 says:

    “Flynn would give this team, this year, a better chance to win. Period. I hope it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.”

    BobbyK, it doesn’t take a genius to figure that out, only a irrationlist to insist it’s true. You don’t have any idea how Flynn would have fared in the 3 games the Seahawks have played. For all any of us know, the Seahawks would be 0-3 with Flynn as the starter (or 3-0. Or 1-2. Or 2-1).

    You have an opinion based on what you have read and seen and considered, as do others. It’s a pointless statement by a fan, and indefensible (as is any counter, which is why it’s pointless).

    And finally, it’s wrong from the one perspective that counts: Pete Carroll’s. If PC thought he could win more games with Flynn, Flynn would be the starter right now. That’s what “Always Compete” means. He can’t start the second best player at the position and maintain his credibility with the team. If he thought Flynn would be better NOW, he’d start him, and when he thought RW had improved to the point of surpassing Flynn, he’d start RW.

    So while it’s possible you are right, and Flynn would win more games right now, I would suggest submitting to PC’s authority in the matter, and accept the fact that RW is in fact, right now, the better option at the position, based on that judgment.

    This is a lesson I learned the hard way, questioning PC’s judgment when it came to Hasselbeck/TJack/Whitehurst. Boy, was I wrong to do so, in the same way you, and those calling for Flynn to start, are wrong now.

  54. Boy, the Packers aren’t getting as much sympathy as they initially did in the PFT comments:

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/25/lang-says-packers-discussed-extreme-measures-on-flight-home/

  55. Hawksince77 says:

    “It all feels a bit contrived to me, from wherever it stems.”

    Dukeshire,

    What is it that seems contrived to you? The call for Flynn to start, or the defense of Wilson’s play? Or something else? Just seeking to understand.

  56. We dont know how Flynn would have played and we wont find out unless Wilson starts to turn the ball over and be the reason for losses, it has not happened yet.To me he only will get better.

  57. sluggo42 says:

    Get real Bobby, you make the statement that we would win with FLynn, and you don’t need to be a genius to see that.
    Sorry mate, thats a pretty pointed statement that you can’t back up with anything. We could be 0=3 if Flynn was starting, don’t need to be a genious to see that. If he was that good, he would be starting…

  58. I would have loved to see Flynn starting and Wilson sitting on the bench for a year. But now that he’s playing — and playing quite well for a rookie — I wouldn’t risk hurting his confidence. He may not be passing for a lot of yards, but his QB rating is 86.1

  59. confucious says:

    Temper yor expectations, all of you Flynn folk. RW is in his third game and we are 2&1. That is after playing tough opponents. Pretty good for sporting a rookie Qb.

  60. “Boy, the Packers aren’t getting as much sympathy as they initially did in the PFT comments:

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/25/lang-says-packers-discussed-extreme-measures-on-flight-home/

    Have to say – I’m pretty happy to see those comments. I’m sick already of people bashing the Hawks, Tate, Carroll, whoever, for being on the lucky side of a ref’s call this time.

    The Packers are not the first team to lose on a tough call, god knows, and this wasn’t a season-ender or a playoff loss or whatever. And you know what? While Tate did commit an obvious pass interference, when I watch the catch again and again, it’s not crystal clear that they should have overturned it.

  61. Hawksince77 says:

    Canfan,

    Thanks for sharing that link. Amazing read, and the comments made a lot of sense. As a competitor, you can’t truly and emotionally invest such a loss with anything less than self-criticism. You have to accept the circumstances no matter how poor, and deal with it.

    It would have been easy for the Seahawks to roll-over late in the game and give up, based on how unjust many of the calls were made. Imagine how Kam felt, making a perfect play on third down, and seeing the yellow hanky. Did he whine about it and complain? No, he kept playing to win.

    Sure, nobody likes it; not us, not the players. Bad calls muck up the game. But the Seahawks beat up on the Packers, and the game could have gone either way, despite the poor calls. If Seattle’s starting QB played like Rodgers did in the first half, the fanbase would be calling for the bench. Instead, the Packers are whining about how the refs cost them the game.

    They had their chances to put the game away, and didn’t do it. Good teams would take it on themselves to get better, to accept their own weaknesses, and figure out how to play better. Not how to stage senseless protests.

  62. GooseRocks says:

    What’s up with the revolving door at right guard? It’s even happening on same drives, like substituting wide receivers.

  63. Several things piss me off royally about the reaction by fans/media etc to this game.

    First and foremost, when the officiation was obviously tilted for an entire game, during THE most important game in Seattles history, when call after call was made unfairly, and many non-calls (not a single offensive holding penalty the entire game for SHitsburgh) also heavily influenced the outcome of the game, there was far less outrage. Seriously: Seattle gets thier first Super Bowl in 30 years stolen by tilted officiating, and little is said: GB loses an early season game on a bad call, and the WORLD STOPS! (Whats wrong with this picture?!)

    Secondly, Seattle has been robbed on at least TWO OCCASIONS of the PLAYOFFS, not just a regular season game, by bad calls at the end of the game. In one game, they couldnt even get it right with REPLAY! And yet no one cared then either.

    The first time was against the RAIDERS with Jerry Markbreit “officiating” (for some strange reason he almost always officiated Seattle/Raider games, and almost always made terrible calls in the Raiders favor…hmmm…) in the late eighties: John L Williams carried the ball across the corner of the end zone at the end of the game for a TD, and they called him out of bounds, despite the fact that the ball clearly crossed into the endzone in front of the pylons before he stepped out. Replay officials upheld the bad call, NO PLAYOFFS for Seattle. No one cared.

    The second time we were denied the playoffs on a bad call was when Testaverde was tackled on the one and a half yard line, then proceeded to squirm his HEAD (white helmet) but not the ball, into the end zone. Inexplicably called a TD by an official who said he thought the white helmet was the ball–never mind the fact that even the helmet was a half yard short of the goal line for more than a second after the player was down–and we were robbed of the playoffs AGAIN. And AGAIN NO ONE CARED!

    Third, GB’s drives were helped continually by ticky tacky or just plain BS penalties. Not to mention the repeated and continual holding that was never called on GB’s O-line.
    The refs sucked, but until the final play, they did their level best to help GB stay in the game. GB should quit whining, they look worse than Golden Tate right now.

    And no one cares. Because its just too awful that GB lost to South ALaska in a nearly meaningless game for them. The horror!

    I hate winning the game on a bad call, but I would have hated losing due to tilted officiating even more. And thats what would have been the case if they hadnt given Tate the catch.

    Now, was the call correct? Oh hell no! I can see how they called it, and I can see how they were hesitant to overturn it, but common sense and a normal sense of fairness in competition when viewing the play says it was a bad call, it was a pick and game over. Not to mention them missing Tates push in the back.

    But all I have to say is GB, live by the sword, die by the sword MF’s!!!

  64. Hawksince77 says:

    STTBM – “I hate winning the game on a bad call, but I would have hated losing due to tilted officiating even more.”

    Word!

  65. Darell Bevell is holding Wilson back. The guy is a fool, and hands down the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL. Unfortunately, Carrol must now live or die tied to him. Damn.

    Wilson played pretty damn well. Given a crap offense to run, he did mostly a fine job, with some mistakes. And he wasnt getting the PI calls GB was, so his job was allready harder. Not to mention the fact that BobbyK’s man-crush Rice did almost nothing to help the team.

    I like Flynn, he got shafted, but theres no way he could do anything with our line pass blocking like zombies. Like it or not, we ride with Wilson from here on out.

  66. Hawksince–Thanks. I agre with youre responses to Bobbyk and Dukeshire. Well spoken.

  67. Bobbyk–nice to see someone is finally hopping on the bandwagon Ive been harping about for years” the sloppy play, lack of discipline, and penalties by Carrol football teams. Unacceptable. The answer? Well, either Carrol finds one or he’s out of a job and Schneider and ALlen go coach hunting in a year or two. No excuse not to win a playoff game this year and challenge for a championship next year with this talent…

  68. Right, and how many times were we all told to shut up and stop whining about the SB calls?

  69. Hawksince77 says:

    STTBM,

    Thanks. One other thing. Even though it has been my fan-opinion that RW was the better QB, and as such, would win the starting job, if PC had named Flynn the starter, despite my earlier judgment concerning the two players, I would publically submit to PC’s judgment as being definitive, that in that case, Flynn was the better player right now.

    In that case, if Flynn was the starting QB, and if Seattle was struggling and losing games (so they were 0-3 right now) I would be saying the same thing to the inevitible call to start RW. My argument would be that no matter what we saw on the field, PC had much better insight into the strengths and weaknesses of each player, and how they fit the team, and as along as he put Flynn on the field as the starting QB, I would believe that Flynn was the better player.

    I know that there are people who know me who wouldn’t believe what I just wrote, and I have no way to prove it, but to say that I was so burned by Whitehurst that I will NEVER go against PC’s judgment when it comes to QBs again.

  70. Palerydr says:

    STTBM I respect your opinions however your anger is misdirected when it comes to Bevell Pete has said he is the one holding back RW with a little Cable mixed in. I can understand holding back RW at this point in his career he is a rook and dumbing down the playbook with a defense as good as ours is proving to be a good thing in my book. I can only imagine if RW was slinging it around 25 + times a game and getting picked. How could that possibly help his confidence? Pete’s offensive commandment is “Thou shalt not turn the ball over” So far that’s exactly what RW is doing not turn it over.

    Read a mess of the comments from PFT and we have many friends out there nice to read some positive stuff about us. I’m sick of hearing these talking heads bump their gums about the bad calls. Every team out there has a blown call story except the Packers who do now. Many of those blown calls were made by the supposed real refs.

  71. Pdway, when the lines start to get blurry and you tell yourself Tate might have had a hand in there, maybe two on the ball, you are drunk and buzzing off PC’s Cool-Aid:) I was thinking the same thing. I admit I am biased and a Seattle homer, who else is gonna stick up for our poor Southeast Alaska minor leaguers? Certainly not the east coast biased national media. STTBM, your post was damn near cathartic for me, I almost shed a tear, well said brother. Nobody gives a damn when we get shafted over and over, so I’m going to take ‘em however we can get ‘em. It’s us against the world anyways, so screw everybody. I love this current PC/JS regime, so if this win helps us get to the playoffs or even just to 9-7 and saves Pete’s job, I say let them give us extra timeouts and “cool” touchdowns. One thing’s for sure, Brady and Belichick were watching the game and they know our D is scary good and can be just as stifling as the Cards’. I just hope K2 doesn’t have the game of his life.

  72. Thanks for reasoned posts Hawksince77.

  73. I’m going to pinch hit this week for Georgia –
    This one’s for all the Hawk haters, fudge packer nation, and national media: Ok, Go.

    Lots of brats, lots of snacks.
    Lots of cheeseheads, at the game talking smack.
    TJ Lang is a hack,
    Josh Sitton, is a dumb fool scum bag.

    Pack was getting jacked, so many sacks,
    Uncle Clem and Irv are fast.
    Rodgers was so stressed, but they say,
    they lost and it’s the zebra’s fault.

    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it!
    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it!
    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it!
    Get over it, Get over ~ it!

    Makes you strong, makes you believe.
    Makes you compete,
    Sipping Cool-Aid from Pete.
    Had it up to the gills,
    Makes you shine, with DangeRuss’ skills.

    Ain’t it just the CLink?
    House of Pain,
    Well it’s all a cryin’ shame.
    What’s left to do, but complain?
    Ya better find someone to blame.

    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it.
    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it.
    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it.
    Get over it, Get over ~ it.

    Wasn’t it a great catch?
    What a prize!
    At least it’s better than getting T-Jacked.
    Love that Golden grab, gave us a spark,
    We ought to buy you some maple bars.

    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it.
    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it.
    Hey! Get, Get, Get, Get, Get over it.
    Get over it, Get over ~ it.

  74. Fix the OL’s blkg – both pass pro and run.

  75. MEhawkfan says:

    I appreciate the link to that thread. There were some pretty funny comments. Like this, for example:

    moerawn says: Sep 25, 2012 8:52 PM

    “Hey TJ? Looked like you clowns were taking a knee when Rodgers was on the deck 8 times in the first half.”

    Go on strike? It seems the refs officiated the game poorly for “both” sides; all things considered, I thought each team got fairly equal treatment. The reality is, as many on this and other threads have stated, play well enough so one play cannot cost you the game.

  76. Hawk77 – BS. I have my opinion. Deal with it. You can have yours and I’ll respect it.

  77. Hawksince77 says:

    BobbyK,

    The only thing that’s BS is your ‘opinion’ that your judgment concerning the QB situation in Seattle is superior to Pete Carroll’s.

    It’s not. Get over it.

  78. Who would have ever thought our always-ignored ‘Hawks would be the talk of the country? Of course, now we’ll be the most hated team in the league…so we should wear the badge proudly and with one helluva swagger. Ravens West. Bring on the boos all around the country and play with a chip on our shoulders. We are getting BS pass interference calls anyway, so might as go ahead and be aggressive.

  79. sluggo42 says:

    BobbyK, you are just like Obama, just because you keep saying something, it doesn’t mean it’s true.

  80. hawkfaninoklahoma says:

    funny thing is when the Hawks are down they open things up and for the most part wilson responds well. i think it’s time to push the envelope a bit hear and let wilson show what he can do.
    funny thing is we are 2-1 and we still have people pissing and moaning on here. i don’t get you people if we won the super bowl you all would still find something to bitch about. leave your dis-function at the door.

  81. Hawksince77 says:

    And incidently, I wasn’t expressing an opinion. You made the following (unsupported) assertion:

    “I’m okay with the Wilson stuff if they deem him that much better than Flynn in the long term. I’m fine if they want to take one step back (for now) if it means taking more steps forward than they think Flynn could take them eventually. That’s called long term thinking and that’s what you need to do sometimes. It’s frustrating in the here and now, but if it is for the best in the future, then lets do it.”

    I responded with the following factually based argument (not opinion):

    1 – PC has maintained through his ‘Always Compete’ mantra that the best player will play. You assert that concerning the QB position, this isn’t so, that PC is willing to sacrifice near-term success for longer term development. That’s an ‘opinion’ that goes against PC’s clear statement of intent.

    2 – PC conducted a highly public 3-way QB competition, the express purpose to determine who the better player was. This is a fact, not opinion.

    3 – Pete Carroll named Russell Wilson the starting QB for the Seahawks. This is also a fact. You are asserting that the criteria for this decision goes beyond Wilson’s ability to play the position right now.

    You call BS on my statement without providing anything to support your baseless dismissal. If you have something of substance to present, great. If not, why even comment?

  82. Dukeshire says:

    sluggo – That sounds a hell of a lot more like Romney than Obama.

    And since when is the head coach beyond reproach? He’s questioned by us in virtually every aspect of his decision making, *except* when it comes to Wilson…? Come on now. I for one am not calling for Flynn, despite the fact I believe he would have been a better option to start the season. But we’re here now. I’ll be god damned however, if I’ll be told that someone isn’t to be questioned simply because those questioning are in agreement with the head coach. Carroll certainly knows more than is when it comes to football, but that’s no excuse to simply follow and surrender all independent thought. He makes mistakes just like we all do.

  83. Dukeshire says:

    Hawksince, You are presuming that Carroll was being fully candid and forthright. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that he favored Wilson from the get go. And certainly there is plenty of evidence that he wanted to replace Jackson under any circumstances. Even as a Wilson defender, you’d reasonably acknowledge that the argument you and Bobby are having is far more neuanced than a couple quotes.

  84. bird_spit says:

    After reading all of the comments from the last couple of days, I have one thing to say.

    Hawks won, get over it.

    Many of you calling out the coaches, players for replacement need to get your self in check. Hawks won what I thought was an unwinable game. I have no issue with the conservative offense In a low scoring defensive struggle. Truth is that the hawks have the superior defense, superior special teams. No need to be an aggressive play caller in this circumstance. We all must respect the turnovers win or lose the game. Look at the Dallas game if you need a proof point.

  85. montanamike2 says:

    When Carroll talks about how great Sweezy is doing, it may be because Moffitt isn’t 100%. When he talks about almost anything it’s often a misdirection of some sort, even to throw off the coach of the next team we play. I agree with Duke that we just wanted to unload TJ and Flynn will get his chance. I think having a mobile qb with a canon arm needs experience and we are a dropped pass from 3-0. I trust PC but Whitehurst was a fill in band aid backup qb who was overpaid. He made more in two years riding the pine than most people make in their whole life! Then the bolts resign him?

  86. “The reality is, as many on this and other threads have stated, play well enough so one play cannot cost you the game.”

    True that. Great teams don’t allow games to come down to one play — although the Giants won the Super Bowl in 1990 by squeaking out wins in the playoffs.

    Anyone remember the game that the Seahawks lost in Baltimore in 2003 or 2004 when the refs gave the Ravens an extra 40 seconds or so. The refs directly contributed to the loss. But there was no national uproar, partly because it wasn’t on MNF and partly because it involved the Seahawks, not on of the high-profile franchises.

  87. montanamike2 says:

    We’ve been robbed so many times and were the situation reversed nobody would give a shite. GB has a good team but AR getting sacked 8 times in a half shows that it wasn’t a fluke. I wish GB players would do what seahawks players do after they get screwed and move on, if they don’t make the playoffs it isn’t because of this one call. They don’t have good blocking and other teams will exploit this until they get it fixed.

  88. Hawksince77 says:

    Dukeshire,

    Bobby is asserting that PC is sacrificing some level of performance now at the QB position in favor of future development. He is stating (as you just did) that he believes Flynn would be more effective now, that is, win more games now, than Wilson.

    The latter is an opinion, one that I have already said is pointless to argue, as it’s impossible for anyone to say with any level of certainty what would have taken place the past 3 games with Flynn starting. As to the former assertion about favoring the future over the now, this goes against everything PC has ever said or done.

    If there is some consideration, or fact, or argument that supports Bobby’s theory that PC is deliberately starting the weaker player at the position right now, I would love to hear it (and asserting that it doesn’t take a genius to know that Flynn would win more games qualifies as starting the weaker player). To my knowledge, such a statement or action on PC’s part doesn’t exist. If it did, and could be referenced, that might change my opinion on the matter.

    And you are right: head coaches do stupid things all the time, and make bad decisions. What impresses me about PC, and why I defer to his judgment in this matter more than I might otherwise, is the process he uses to select players.

    For some reason, the NFL is full of coaches making decisions based on history, or name recognition, or draft position, or contract level, or whatever. PC has consistently done otherwise: he has consistently made such decisions based on performance, and as far as we can tell, nothing else. He has said so; we have seen it happen on many occasions, too many to reference. He has cut popular players; has over-drafted several; has started UDFAs; has signed and released hundreds. And you can see the results on the field. There is no reason to believe (unless you or Bobby can reference one) an instance where this has not been the case.

    And as far as the QB position goes specifically, it’s my ‘opinion’ that Wilson has done a nice job given the circumstances; it is my ‘opinion’ that Flynn would have struggled mightily in the same circumstances. But these are ‘opionions’ that I can’t back up by anything more than my personal judgment, and I won’t attempt to. But that personal judgment supports my more reasoned support for PC, his process, and his decision to start Russell Wilson.

    Can PC be wrong? Of course he can. It’s football. But given his professional experience, his access to information we don’t have, and the results we see on the field, I think it foolish to pit one fan’s opinion over the head coach’s concerning his decision on who to start at QB. It would be ‘irrational’ in this case, to do so.

  89. sluggo42 says:

    OK Duke, I can see you’re a libtard, and I’m obviously a repuplitard, so lets leave that out of the equation from now on, even though you’re totally wrong ;o)…

    I think slave said it best as we have been the leagues biotch for everrr, so we finally get a call in our favor and the world goes insane.

    F em all. seriously

    It’s weird to be hashing out Wilson/Flynn again. Until the kid starts doing some stoopid things and losing games by his actions, it’s a moot arguement. Pete is NOT going to play Flynn until RDub gets hurt or implodes.

    Calling RDub out for a crappy game against one of the best “D”‘s is quite premature, especially since we won the game. What did they do to Cutler? They murdered him. PC has a gameplan for his developement and they are sticking to it.

    I Predict that he goes over 200 yards and 2 TD’s this week against the Rams and they will keep him in the pocket more, and have him make some throws to the left this week. Maybe a slant or two as well. Peete is breaking him in easy and very carefully, so they don’t do irrepairable damage to him like a David Carr
    Baby steps baby

  90. mojjonation says:

    ChrisHolmes…I would love to know the same. If Bevell is being told what to do by Cable and PC, then it isn’t on his head. But if you go look at Bevells stats as an OC, he is less than middle of the pack. So even if Bevell is allowed to call what he wants, it may never work since his numbers indicate less then average success even though he had AP in the backfield. His one good year as an OC was Favres first year in Minnesota. Coincidence?

    Quite frankly, karma is a bitch. GB was 15-1 last year and expected to waltz into the superbowl uncontested. Then the playoffs happened and it all came crashing down. This is karma coming back to crush their spirit.

    Flynn’s resume consists of two meaningless games where he lit up the scoreboard. Do you think that if Flynn were actually that good, they would of had a QB controversey in GB? Hell no. Rogers is the undisputed leader of that team. The old GB OC didn’t make a reach for Flynn during the offseason. What does that tell you? I think Flynn had the same attitude regarding Seattles QB position that GB held going into the playoffs last year. Flynn assumed the job was his and that no one would stop him. For Flynn, it was Wilson. For GB last year, it was the playoffs.

    That being said, has anyone seen the All 22 and been able to determine if the route running by the receivers has anything to do with our horrid pass offense? I have seen replays that show lazy route running and receivers giving up on plays if they are not the primary target. Or giving up on plays if Wilson has broken the pocket. I’m not talking about the neck snapping hit that Tate put on Lee. I’m talking about hanging your QB out to dry and standing flat footed when he is extending the play. Run back to your QB and help the guy out by finding a hole in the zone. Our guys really don’t seem to do that.

    When Seattle made the superbowl, I believe they were underdogs and expected Pittsburgh to stonewall them. When Arizona made the superbowl, everyone expected a blowout by Pittsburgh. Move to this year. When San Fran beat GB, it wasn’t San Frans physical defense that got the credit. It was GB being down because it was early in the season. When Arizona beat Bew England, it wasn’t because they slowed Tom Brady. It was because New England missed a field goal at the end of the game. Even when Seattle put a Thug style beat down on Dallas, it was because Witten was hurt and the fans were loud. When the Rams beat Washington, it was because it was RG3′s second game. Then there is the Seattle GB fiasco. There is no love for the NFC West. They have been the doormat so long, everyone just assumes it is a fluke. This group of teams if going to have to come just short of knocking an entire team out to get any repsect. Well no more. Teams are learning that if you cross into the Pacific time zone (sorry Rams, you are back east or something), you better be ready for a prison style, gen pop, no holds barred, better have a lot of pain killers in your toolbox kind of game.

    While the superbowl success has yet to be reached by this division, it is only a matter of time before it does. The bad boys of the NFL now reside near or on the Pacific ocean. You know what that means? The sun doesn’t set until we tell it to.

  91. Dukeshire says:

    Hawksince77 – I simply don’t have the desire or energy to debate the QB situation, at this point. I’ll make two quick points, then I’m done: 1- you are offering your opinion as well. You’re simply using quotes from Carroll to frame it, which is fine. But it’s opinion none the less. 2- the league is chock full of, at worst, anticdotal evidence, that starting a veteran QB over a rookie QB provides better play at that position, in the short term. And while Wilson is believed to have a higher ceiling that Flynn, it’s not a stretch to believe that he’d play better than Wilson has, in his first 3 games.

  92. Hawksince77 says:

    Dukeshire,

    I am not simply stating an opinion. I have made a reasoned argument based on known facts. Neither you, nor Bobby, have countered with anything other than unsupported assertions (as evidenced by your most recent post).

    Believe what you want, but everything points to the probability that PC has started the best player at the position, and that being the case, the team has (and will continue) to perform at a higher level than otherwise.

    Is it possible that Flynn would do better? Yes. Is it reasonable to think so? No, it’s not, based on the known facts.

    Come up with an example of PC not playing the best player in the past three years; find a statement to the effect that PC is willing to sacrifice winning a game or two to develop his QB. You won’t, because you can’t, because such evidence doesn’t exist.

    Everything PC has said and done indicates he wants to compete for a title right now. The difference between a record of 10-6 and 9-7 (or 11-5) may make the difference between making the play-offs, and not. Losing an extra game may cost them home-field advantage. One game.

    This isn’t a throw-away season, where losses don’t matter. PC intends to contend, by all the evidence, and that means winning as many games as possible. That means starting the best player possible, particularly at the most important position on the team.

    This isn’t simply my ‘opinion’. This is what any knowledgable fan can know, and understand.

    So yes, I do believe it’s a “stretch to believe that he’d [Flynn] play better than Wilson has, in his first 3 game,” based on the known facts.

    But hey, you and Bobby can go along and believe what you want, independent of what actually takes place.

    And yes, that’s my opinion.

  93. Dukeshire says:

    “Is it possible that Flynn would do better? Yes. Is it reasonable to think so?”

    Thank you. But you still haven’t supported your belief that Wilson is the better option, right now, with facts. Even you say that everything points to the “probability”. That is not fact. You may have made a reasoned argument, not contesting that. But ultimately it’s your opinion.

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