Seahawks Insider

Morning links: T-Jack’s job to lose?

Post by Eric Williams on June 11, 2012 at 6:15 am with 49 Comments »
June 11, 2012 7:07 am
Seattle Seahawks quarterback Tarvaris Jackson. (Ted S. Warren/The Associated Press)

My story today focuses on the quarterback competition. The Seattle Seahawks are heading into the final week of offseason workouts with the opening of the team’s final minicamp on Tuesday.

And while Seattle head coach Pete Carroll said none of the quarterbacks involved in the three-way battle for the starting job has moved ahead, he indicated that Matt Flynn and Russell Wilson are a bit behind Tarvaris Jackson because they are still learning the team’s offense, while Jackson is more familiar with it by virtue of his seven years with offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell’s system, both in Seattle and Minnesota.

“Russell and Matt both have ground to make up because they’re learning new systems,” Carroll said. “And they both are doing exceedingly well at that, but they have more ground to make up.”

Carroll also said the players’ respective salaries will not influence the decision on who wins out as the team’s starting quarterback.

“Draft picks and money and stuff like that is not going to play in the decision at all,” Carroll said. “We’re going to go with what it looks like through the competition and how they play, and the results of that, and how we feel about that.”

Pat Kirwan of CBS Sports says the idea of coaches like Carroll creating a level playing field in a quarterback competition with the reduced number of reps in offseason workouts and training camps nowadays is probably unrealistic.

Clifton Brown of the Sporting News ranks Marshawn Lynch No. 15 on his list of the top running backs in the league, with guys like San Diego’s Ryan Mathews and Cleveland’s Trent Richardson – who hasn’t played a snap in the league – ahead of him. All I can do is shake my head on that one.

Greg Mellen of the Long Beach Press-Telegram takes a look at how the justice system failed Brian Banks, who was recently exonerated from rape and kidnapping charges.

Peter King of Sports Illustrated has an interesting conversation with league commissioner Roger Goodell on improving the safety of the game and helping players better transition to lives after football once their careers are over.

Matt Bowen of the National Football Post runs down how defenses break down personnel groupings of the offense they are going up against.

John Livingston of The Daily times of Farmington, New Mexico writes about Seattle receiver Charly Martin returning to home to host a football camp next week.

Morning links
Leave a comment Comments → 49
  1. montanamike2 says:

    In my opinion Marshawn is a top 5 RB in the entire league.

  2. This Clifton Brown guy is a moron. a Rookie RB that has not taken a snap in the league is better than Marshawn Lynch? C’mon man, what a crock of sh*t! Oh well, keep feeding this team fuel for he fire baby, and they’ll shut everyone up on the field come fall.

  3. Top 5 RB is pushing it. If we’re ranking RBs according to their performance last year — and last year only — then Marshawn is a Top Ten back. If we’re looking at entire career, then No. 15 seems right. However, I wouldn’t put Ryan Mathews, Trent Richardson and DeMarco Murray above him.

    Who the heck is Charly Martin? Okay, I just found out — reading the article that Eric linked to. He’s been in the NFL for three years and has one career catch.

  4. bird_spit says:

    I’d like to see Carroll cut bait, and decide who the starter is before the real training camp. I’d eliminate one of them in this mini camp. PC’s mantra of always compete wont allow him to eliminate the competition before week 1 though… By now, it should not be hard to evaluate what TJ can do. They could name him the starter, and have a nice competition for #2. If that became reality, then I would predict 8-8 season.

    If our R was named #1 I would predict 3 wins.

    Only with the wild card Flynn would I predict a winning season.

  5. chuck_easton says:

    Still not good news on the QB front. I said it two threads ago. If the season started tomorrow TJack would be our starter.

    He’s ahead of the other two after OTA’s.

    Let’s just hope Flynn or Wilson (more likely Flynn) can show more in pre-season games to move ahead or we are looking at another TJack led offense in 2012.

  6. Soggybuc says:

    The pre season games are whats going to matter most. PC will go with the guy thats a gamer, and we all know that is not what TJ is.

  7. I think we should cut or trade Bobby Wagner and get Niko Koutouvides. Afterall, he knows the system better.

    Some of this “comPete” stuff is amusing. Supposedly, everyone has to compete for a starting job. But some don’t. Okung was named the starting LT on day one. They gave the RT job to Carp last year on draft day, too. And he stayed there until he tore his ACL (now he’ll have to compete in the future, but he didn’t then and we all know that). We all know T-Jack didn’t have to “comPete” for anything last year. Maybe it should be “everyone must comPete except for the people we don’t think should have to comPete for anything and we’ll just give them jobs, but the rest of you better comPete.”

  8. Carroll has the players compete for spots when he feels they are close (like Jackson and Flynn) and he does not have them compete when he feels they are not close (Jackson and Whitehurst or Okung and whoever backs him up). When the level of talent was low, everyone was competing for a job (because most stunk) and now that the talent level is high, very few positions are open for competition.

    He made a miscalculation on both Carpenter and Giacomini last year. Maybe he was reading these blog comments (sorry, I had to throw that in there). He made a mistake he quickly corrected, there is no reason to constantly bring it up.

    Just because the guys on this blog feel that Whitehurst and Jackson should have competed (last season proved why Carroll was correct despite all the criticism on this blog) and that Flynn should not have to compete with Jackson, doesn’t mean Carroll is inconsistent on how he applies his philosophy. It simply means the guys on this blog don’t agree with Carroll on his evaluations. And given all the hype for Flynn before FA started, either Carroll is really correct or the guys on this blog are really correct.

    As has been the case since the Falcons game last year, my money is on Carroll.

  9. SeahawkGreg says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about T Jack “knowing the offense”. It sure didn’t look like he knew the offense last season, for all the hype about it and it being the genesis of why he was signed.

    You would think someone with such knowledge of the system would be much quick in his reads and decisiveness.

  10. Singularitarian says:

    I don’t believe that Carroll’s statement was at all intended to imply that it’s Jackson’s Job to lose, he would have a “head start” on Tom Brady if he were to come to Seattle and there was a “quarterback competition”. I still don’t see him making the team, though I do feel he’s gotten a worse rap than he deserves, given the god awful position he was put in last year, I can’t think of too many worse places a quarterback could have found himself last year than Seattle, and he handled it very well considering. I just don’t see him as the future and I think Carroll doesn’t either

  11. montanamike2 says:

    I agree with Pabs on this, i trust PC.

  12. bigmike04 says:

    I think that could be more of wrong of statement it Matt Flynn job to lose.. Face the fact they didn’t go out in Free Agent & give Flynn a big bonus to hold the clipboard. The Coaching staff know what T. Jack is capable to do as starter that isn’t much..

    what most likely going to happen is T.Jack get released and Wilson & portis are your 2nd & 3rd string..

  13. iHateHarbaugh says:

    Follow @HarbaughHaters & grow the movement #12thMan

  14. RDPoulsbo says:

    Ok, so there’s a full blown QB competition and people are already showing signs of panic. I think PC is handling it well. T-Jack has the respect of the lockerroom and played well considering his torn pec last year while the young o-line was learning to block. It should be T-Jack’s job to lose even though I still expect Flynn to ultimately win it. It maintains the cohesiveness by doing it this way.

    …and once again, no, they will not be cutting T-Jack. He’s a tough vet that can bail out the team as opposed to everyone else who’s completely unproven. It’s Portis who’s on his way out. It’s pretty evident considering the only thing he’s been doing is taking in the scenery of Lake Washington to this point. We’re talking about the guy who left Florida because he lost the QB competition to Tim Tebow for crying out loud. His talent is a dime a dozen that can easily be replaced with a late round flyer in next year’s draft.

  15. chuck_easton says:

    To add to what Poulsbo is saying, I also get the feeling that the team thinks Wilson is the steal of the draft and he just needs some time before taking over.

    So, if Wilson is the Franchise QB in a year or two from now then the team is happy with letting Flynn and TJack battle it out to see who gets to be the place holder until Wilson is ready.

  16. I believe it’s Flynn’s job to lose. We already saw what TJack could do last year. He was pretty good — like Jon Kitna — but not what we need from the QB position. If the Ravens game (when he made some clutch throws to finish the game) had been the norm last year, then I’d be beating the drum for TJack. But the way I see it, he’d have to outplay Flynn by a significant margin to hand him the job again.

    The funny thing is, it’s actually good for the team that they have three guys who are potentially capable of starting. But we fans don’t like the controversy. We’d rather have a clear-cut winner. And we don’t really want Wilson to outplay Flynn, because the signing of Flynn would seem like a bad decision. But as long as one of these guys becomes a franchise QB, it doesn’t matter if they wasted money/draft picks on the others. If Wilson is the second coming of Joe Montana, who cares that they threw $10 million at Flynn?

  17. RDPoulsbo says:

    Let’s turn the cynicism of T-Jack on it’s head. There’s no shortage of fans who don’t like him for whatever reason. I’m not a fan myself, but a lot of the criticism of T-Jack is off base.

    Consider the scenario that Flynn does earn the starting job with T-Jack as the #2. As with most 1st time QB starters, there will be a stretch of games where he struggles. That fan dislike of T-Jack is going to mean Flynn will get more leeway with the fans because they’ll think twice about booing him and calling for T-Jack to come in and play. That would be PC pulling some jujitsu on BobbyK.

  18. As much as I don’t want TJack to start, I also want him to remain on the roster. He would be a solid backup and I think it would be crazy for the team to release him.

  19. Coaches need to be smart enough to think long term (I think this regime is that smart, which is good/great).

    After about 35 NFL starts, you know what you have with T-Jack. After 2 NFL starts, you’re not as certain with Flynn, but you can damn well bet that he’ll be better than T-Jack after he’s had about 33 more starts. Will the fans/organization be patient (although I think the inexperienced guy is already better than the guy with over 2 more years of starts)?

    Ultimately, Wilson may be the guy they want to dance with long term though.

    If we’re looking at who will be the best QB in 2012, it could definitely end up being T-Jack. Yes. I said that. I still think Flynn is better for the here and now, but he’s going to have to take some of the starting lumps that inexperienced starters have to go through. T-Jack is who he is and he’s gone through plenty of starts (although he still weaknesses in his game) but he could very well be better for what they want/need in ’12.

    However, if you’re looking at what’s best for the future, I don’t see how they can’t start Flynn. You know what you’ve got with T-Jack and you’ve got a guy people sometimes compare to Trent Dilfter. No. Not in style of play, but having a QB that’s not overly good and still winning. That’s not a compliment.

    With that being said, maybe Wilson is what’s best long term and that’s where they should go?

    There’s a lot of ways this QB derby could go and there’s good reasons for each debate.

    Personally, I’d dumb T-Jack, as hard as that is for me to say since you all know how much I love him, but I’d rather that Flynn and Wilson, the two with more long term upside, could get more reps to be ready for this upcoming season and, more importantly, the future.

  20. FROM PFT: “If Wilson beats out Jackson (not inconceivable), the Seahawks can save a significant amount by releasing the former Vikings starter. But if Wilson beats out Flynn, that’s a lot of money wasted.”

    Just what I thought people might say. But who cares about the $10 million if Wilson turns out to be THE GUY? The important thing is finding THE GUY.

  21. seahawk44 says:

    Matt Hasselbeck had 0 career starts when he became the starter for Seattle.

  22. Agreed Canfan, finding the guy is the important thing. I always wonder about the people who mention the money aspect of it. You think Pete Carroll and John Schneider care about wasting $10M of Paul Allen’s money? Paul Allen don’t care, he’s a honey badger. It’s not like he’s losing money on the Seahawks anyway, and he’s willing to spend up to the cap and they aren’t even close this year, IIRC. He’s saving money.

    As I said on the article comments, and I know you’re all waiting with bated breath for my input (again) I think that it’s telling that Jackson doesn’t have a commanding lead with his years of experience in the league, the system, and with the receivers. I think he’s the veteran backup this year to Flynn and he’ll be offered the same job next year with a similar contract. If Flynn wins more games than he loses in 2012 then he is the QB of the future. If not he’ll be fighting to be the veteran backup to Wilson in 2013. Regardless, the Seahawks don’t have all that much “NFL” money in the position for the next couple of years. It’s not even a consideration.

  23. I’m pretty sure Carroll (and the rest of the NFL) knows what they have in both Jackson and Flynn – 2 average QBs who will get you to average in a different way.

    Flynn will do it with a huge variance between his highs and lows and Jackson will do it, but with little variance away from the average line.

    It all depends what the coach prefers. My guess is Carroll prefers more of steady hand which he can coach around (if he can’t get someone who will be constantly spectacular of course).

  24. I am not a fan of Tjack but I don’t hate him either. I am wanting Flynn to win the job because it means we will be improved at that position. If we can improve there I think we can make some hay in the division.

    I still have a “prove it to me” attitude about the hawks and improving the record/making the play-offs – While I believe they can I don’t just “know” they are going to be better. I thought they would be better last year and they finished with the same 7-9 record – and yes we did some things better but not enough to win more.

    Ultimately – Win more and prove it to me :)

  25. Also, I would like to see them give slightly more reps to Flynn/Jackson and still give Wilson some reps but not as many.

    I don’t think he is going to be ready and this team doesn’t need him to start this year – Let him grow and learn without killing his confidence.

    Just IMO

  26. RDPoulsbo says:

    Just remember that CBJ got the same money last year as T-Jack will this year and no one cared. The team is nowhere close to having salary cap issues and there’s no long term issues involved with keeping T-Jack on the roster.

    Hass was the starter coming in, but he also lost his starting job to Dilfer when he sucked early on. If not for Dilfer, Holmgren may not have been around long enough to get the team to the SB. T-Jack would be the Dilfer of this year should Flynn struggle badly.

    I doubt Wilson will be anything other than the #3 this year. The one thing he has over both Flynn and T-Jack is time. There’s really no reason to rush his development. Letting him have the year to get his feet under him as a pro before moving forward next year would only be good for him overall.

  27. Hawksince77 says:

    I am not sure where everyone is getting the $10mil spent on Flynn. As I understand the contract, he was paid a $6mil signing bonus, and guaranteed something like $2mil/year if he makes the team.

    So if he’s NOT the guy, it’s a $6mil sunk cost, not $10mil.

    If RW wins the starting job, who do you think PC will like the most as his back-up, Flynn or TJack? Given that Flynn hasn’t surpassed TJack at this point, and that PC didn’t think that much of Flynn to bring him in as the starting QB, and all the arguments many of you have made in favor of keeping TJack as a known insurance policy at the position, you might conclude that PC would favor TJack at the number 2 spot.

    And, if RW wins the starting job, do you think TJack or Flynn would remain on the roster as the 3rd stringer? Not likely.

    Portis will likely be on the team as the third-string/developmental guy. He’s cheap, extremely athletic, has tremendous upside, requires development, and PC has remarked on several occasions how well he is doing, and that he has a future with the team.

    If Flynn wins the starting job, the QB waters get muddy, as TJack is arguably the best #2 on the team, and that might mean (as many of you have suggested) that Portis is the odd man out with RW taking the third spot.

    If TJack wins the starting job, that means he couldn’t beat Flynn. At that point, you gotta think it will be Jackson/RW/Portis, because why would you keep a guy who can’t beat out the incumbant he was supposedly signed to replace?

  28. Hawksince77 says:

    In the last paragraph, meant to write “…that means that Flynn couldn’t beat Jackson.”

  29. chuck_easton says:

    All that this means so far is none of the three QB’s has done anything to distance themselves either to the positive or to the negative from the other two.

    If September roles around and we are in the same position we are today, then Jackson is the starter. So, it is Jackson’s job to lose (or Jackson’s job to be taken away from him…which apparently hasn’t happened yet).

    Bobby may not want to hear this, but Flynn has to show he is better than Jackson to win the job. Otherwise you go with the devil you know instead of the devil you don’t. Flynn may be better than Jackson, but he may not. If he is better, he has three months to prove it.

  30. I agree with that Chuck and my odds on the QB competition are still:

    Jackson 40%
    Flynn 30%
    Wilson 30%

    Its been the same since Wilson was drafted and I dont imagine it will change until we see the first preseason game.

  31. RDPoulsbo says:

    Since it wasn’t in the link, here’s Baldwin on the John Clayton Show:

    He starts at the 22:00 min mark and the QBs specifically at the 33:40 mark:

    Wilson: “Phenomenal leader…I think he’s having a not a difficult time but having to adjust to the speed of the game.”

    Flynn/T-Jack: “Hard to tell the difference between Matt and Tavaris because we’re not in pads…not a defense that we have to gameplan for.” “It’s not as clear cut as people think it is.”

    Baldwin also mentions he is biased toward T-Jack because he was here last year and that everyone else needs to play with more consistency.

  32. Southendzone says:

    We know for certain that Flynn & RW will be on the roster for game 1. I’m leaning towards TJ being the other QB that makes it just because I see PC as really wanting to make a big playoff push this year. A competent backup who knows the system is a huge plus to help out your win total. RW would be exciting but TJ is the perfect backup (if he doesn’t win the job outright)

    Whereas last year I don’t think they were in 100% win mode with the plan to replace Matt with TJ, this year’s different, team has completely gone through the Schneiderization and Carrollification process.

  33. GeorgiaHawk says:

    If we go with Jackson, than we are going to be a 7-9 team again! Is that what you all want? Wake up!
    At least we will have a chance to do better with Flynn or Wilson. Perhaps not, but let’s at least give it a try this year.
    We all know what we got with Jackson, not much!

  34. Dukeshire says:

    I think it will be clear, one way or another, once the preseason games begin. Until then, it’s just a lot of conjuncture.

  35. chuck_easton says:

    Georgia, if neither Flynn nor Wison can beat Jackson out then how is playing them going to improve things?

    Our best hope is Flynn rises to the challenge in pre-season or it’s another year of Jackson by default.

  36. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Chuck- It may not, however I believe that Flynn And/or Wilson has more upside than Jackson. So even if Jackson is ahead of them at the start of the games this year I would rather have Flynn and/or Wilson because I want my future qb to have the reps and the experience that will acclimate him for the future.

  37. Soggybuc says:

    Horse, meet Bat. he will be your constant companion until the end of August.

  38. GeorgiaHawk says:

    The Seahawks wouldn’t have gone after Flynn and/or drafted Wilson if they thought Jackson could lead this team to post season wins, let alone the post season.

    When it comes down to it Whitehurst arguably had bigger wins when he was here!

    Time to move on!

  39. You want a QB that can handle pressure.

    You need a QB that can handle pressure.

    What Mr. Happy is doing right now is putting pressure on Flynn and Wilson by saying that T-Jack (who cannot handle pressure in the pocket or in the 4th quarter) is ahead in the competition right now.

    It’s a good move. Frankly, it’s probably the second best move he could make right now (aside from cutting Jackson now so Flynn/Wilson can get more reps and saving $4 million bucks).

  40. Wow, the Seahawks havent had a single practice in full pads–Training Camp is still a ways out–and allready the hand-wringing over the qb position is at fever pitch.

    Carolls whole schtick is based on competition; you think he’s gonna admit to anyone having a slight edge?! Of course not. Its only mini-camp, and it means little. Golden Tate tore up Mini-camp as a rookie, then looked utterly lost all year in real games. Same with Deion Butler, the greatest practice WR to never do much in games (though I still think he’s gonna be a fine slot WR or even a decent FL for another team this year). Hell, for oldsters out there, Kelly Stouffer kicked ass in practice year in year out. Yet he SUCKED in real games.

    Its not surprising that Flynn and Wilson havent beaten out Jackson yet. Hell, its not even day one of Training Camp! Jackson is a tough guy, an athlete, and a leader, and he’s been in this system 7 years! Flynn is a backup in a new system, Wilson is a short rookie. The fact that those two are even close to Jackson is awesome, and says that a) Jackson aint that great (DUH!), and b) they have a good chance to beat him out in Training Camp.

    I dont even think Training Camp will sort it all out. Preseason games are gonna do that. Jackson will start week one–which is a disadvantage in my mind, Seattle is always sloppy the first half of thier first preseason game–Flynn will start week two, and by then I think it will be clear that Flynn is the guy, and unless Jackson is sucking bigtime, he will get to start in game three if its close, if not Flynn will get it and stay in most of the game. Wilson will get garbage time unless Jackson sucks, in which case Wilson will relieve Flynn in game three in the fourth quarter, and will start game 4. Thats my prediction.

    But regardless, its totally understandable that Flynn and Wilson havent passed Jackson yet. They arent Peyton Manning. And neither is Jackson. WHich is why Flynn will pass him in preseason, and why Wilson will show that he’s a rookie and not ready to start. I think we keep Jackson this year.

    And idiots keep thinking we’re paying Flynn $10 mill this year because his contract guarantee’s him that much–they dont remember that the full guarantee is over two years. He gets $8 mill this year, $2 mill guarantee’d next year, and more if he stays. So he’s not being paid 10 mill this year.

    Seattle thinks he’s worth a gamble, at the least a damn fine backup to Jackson and worth rolling the dice on a few million of Allens money.

  41. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Flynn just needs to take charge! He has seemed kind of timid so far, however like I think Dukeshire was getting at , perhaps it is just too early to know one way or the other.

    I know what I don’t want though, another year of Jackson!

    Three months before the real games begin! It’s creeping up on us!

  42. GeorgiaHawk says:

    So STTBM- Who do you want to be our qb of the present and/or the future out of these three?

    That goes for everyone on this blog!

  43. bird_spit says:

    CanFan hit it right on..the Kitna / TJ comparison is excellent. I always felt Kitna was that perfect backup. He wouldn’t be the cause of a loss, and could manage a game well. TJ is that guy. I always liked Kitna, and I think after last year I will always like tjack. I just don’t want him as my starting QB. But if TJ became HC at a school in say Olympia, the competition between TJ and Kitna could be played out. That would be really worth watching.

    I hope Flynn steals the show and has a good run in 2012.

  44. FleaFlicker says:

    Great post from BobbyK today

  45. FleaFlicker says:

    Meant “posts”. Plural.

  46. averagejay says:

    I look at it like this. T-Jack is bronze. No matter how you shape it, melt it, bend it, he will still be bronze. He is not going to get better.

    Flynn and Wilson are rough and unknown commodities. If you don’t work the metal, you will never know if you have gold. The only way you’re going to know what you have there is playing time.

    If you didn’t believe either Wilson or Flynn were better than T-Jack, why did you waste the money or the draft pick?

    Pete, Cut the cord. Pick who you think is going to be the best future QB of the Hawks and put them in there. Give them the respect and the confidence of knowing this is their team and let them lead. I have a feeling that this team will be good regardless of who you put out there at QB. But not so good if you continue to ride three horses at the same time.

  47. howaboutthat says:

    my late to the party as usual,and prolly better off for any of us know burns my butt that here is a man after 40 years(many of them in excellence) and a regime in 2 miniscule years that has tranformed a
    an nfl roster and there are clownbutts on here proclaiming to know better.
    the right response is (tho many will take this wrongly,and th0 am applying this word to nfl football)….reverence. Also appreciation and an just the joy of whats unfolding.truthfully most a ya’ll otta jus shut yer traps.

  48. WiscCory says:

    Hawks invite Antonio Bryant to join mini-camp.

  49. jarred767 says:

    I’m also late to the party, but it’s really interesting reading everything about these three. There are so many ways that it can shake out that if nothing else, the next three months will definitely be interesting and it will keep these boards busy.

    I personally don’t mind TJack and thought he was decent last year, but I think that he’s the odd man out this year. Here’s why:

    They seem way too high on RW to let him sit as the 3rd QB all year without getting barely any reps. I think he ends up as the backup (unless he completely flops over the next three months) which means its between Flynn and TJack for the starting position with whoever loses out, probably getting cut as they could both easily be another team’s backup. My money’s on Flynn for that battle and therefore TJack is sent packing.

    BTW, I think the future belongs to RW and that could be exciting.

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