Seahawks Insider

Morning links: TE Carlson’s contract too rich?

Post by Eric Williams on April 5, 2012 at 7:56 am with 74 Comments »
April 5, 2012 8:32 am

Evan Silva of Rotoworld writes that former Seahawks tight end, who received a five-year, $25 million deal from Minnesota, $9 million of which was guaranteed, was the most overpaid player in free agency.

Carlson did not play a down in 2011 because of a torn labrum in his shoulder that he suffered during training camp, which required season-ending surgery. The Notre Dame product was productive in his first two seasons in Seattle, but struggled in 2010 because he had to stay in and block more. And he also dropped a few more balls than usual that year.

Seahawks defensive tackle Red Bryant (five years, $35 million, $14.5 guaranteed) also makes an appearance on the list.

Silva: Carlson’s five-year, $25 million deal made him the NFL’s 12th-highest paid tight end in terms of annual average. While his $9.1 million in guarantees were more reasonable and put Carlson a few notches lower in the league’s tight end contract rankings, it’s still quite a pricey sum for a guy who didn’t play a down last year and lacked an impressive track record in previous seasons.

Carlson ran a 4.89 forty at the 2008 Scouting Combine and has struggled mightily as a blocker in the NFL. He has a history of concussions and tore a labrum in his shoulder last August. While Carlson will be 100 percent for OTAs, his first four seasons suggest Carlson stands little to no chance of meeting the expectations set forth by the money he’s making. Especially once 2011 second-round pick Kyle Rudolph easily surpasses him as Minnesota’s go-to option at tight end.”

Matt Bowen of the National Football Post breaks down safety play in a cover 2 defense.

Don Banks of Sports Illustrated has Seattle selecting North Carolina defensive end Quinton Coples in his latest mock draft.

Peter Schrager of Fox Sports has Seattle selecting South Carolina defensive end Melvin Ingram.

Rob Rang of has Seattle selecting Boston College linebacker Luke Kuechly.

With New Orleans Saints head coach Sean Peyton scheduled to go in front of league commissioner Roger Goodell for his appeal on the bounty scandal today, Mike Silver of Yahoo Sports has a story on former New Orleans defensive coordinator Gregg Williams speech before his team’s NFC Championship playoff game at San Francisco. It’s a profanity-laced pep talk recorded by documentary filmmaker Sean Pamphilon that has some pretty specific references about his defensive guys trying to injure Niners’ players, which you can listen to here.

To be honest, except for the specific references to injuring players, I’ve heard similar speeches growing up playing football. But I don’t think this is going to help Peyton any.

Morning links
Leave a comment Comments → 74
  1. seahawk44 says:

    I don’t recall an NFC championship game between the Saints and 49ers.

  2. Dukeshire says:

    I wish Matt Bowen wold compile all his Playbook pieces into a book. I would buy that thing in a heartbeat. His breakdowns are informative for the most ardent follower, and accessible to even a casual football fan.

  3. Dukeshire says:

    The specifics Williams gets into in that tape are crazy. Taking out Crabtree’s ACL? Don’t get off the pile until you deliver a head shot? Busting up V. Davis’ ankles? I understand the “kill the head and the body will follow” metaphor. But to extrapolate it into a real and specific approach to containing Frank Gore is something else.

    The context of the speech is as common as it gets. But detailing how you’re going to physically disable opposing players, perhaps ending their career, is surprising, considering the current state of the game. All the head-shot talk? I’m sure Goodell was real impressed by that, considering concussions is his pet issue.

  4. I agree – what a crazy ‘pep’ talk.

    I am a youth football coach and I have never heard or given any pep talk that talks about injurying players or testing how well their injuries are healed.

    IMO, no way Williams can be allowed back into the NFL now that this recording is public.

    On the teams I have coached on, all responsibility always goes back to the head coach – I think Payton is very lucky he has not received a lifetime ban also.

  5. I’m so glad Williams will not be coaching the Rams this year.

  6. Dukeshire says:

    I am curious how common talk of specifically injuring opposing players really is. I hate to sound naive here, but I am surprised. I guess I operated under the presumption that those sentiments were understood on some level, if unspoken.

  7. bandwagon56 says:

    So Eric, since you have heard those kinds of talks as a player, has it led you as a journalist to question one player who knocked another player out of a game, legally or not, whether he did it deliberately?

  8. Duke – I have never heard them and never felt they were there but unspoken.

    There is alot of talk about playing hard, hitting hard etc. We actively discourage kids from tackling or hiting about the head or shoulder area ‘low man wins in football’ is a common saying.

    I just coach kids – 12 and 13 year olds this year, so I suppose its apples and oranges, but I am still shocked.

  9. Good point Big D!It’s a standard part of the game!but unspoken for the most part.when I played that was what you did find out really quick how the enemies injury is healing and hopefully put them back on the bench.sounds harsh but that Is part of the game and it isn’t’s totally different than a cheap shot!

  10. SeahawkFan12 says:

    These “pep talks” are common, but at the pro level, that is unacceptable. He’s talking about ruining a man’s livelihood, and perhaps life. I get that it’s a vicious game and I love the violence of it, but it doesn’t require an idiot making it worse with incentivized barbarism on top of it all. He should be banned for life, IMO.

  11. No disrespect intended guys – but you are mistaken if you think that talk like that is normal. Talk about ‘kicking ass’ or ‘hitting hard’ happens all the time, but I have never, ever, heard any talk about injuring a player or targeting a players previous injury. Its unbeliveable really.

  12. Players look genuinely concerned and upset when one of their hits (badly) hurts an opposing player during a game.

  13. It’s not talked about! It is automatic. That’s what dukeshire is saying. It is unspoken for the most part. No need to talk about it . It is standard operating procedure. Standard part of game. If you don’t agree that’s cool but if you played the game u must of been the kicker!JUDAS PRIEST!

  14. RDPoulsbo says:

    Grabbing the facemask, hands to the face, horsecollar tackles, etc. were all legal at one time. So what? The NFL Legacy Fund is what. Created in large part because of lawsuits for this “it’s just part of the game” mentality. Injuries are part of the game, but injury because of play outside the rules is never ok. Williams was going into great detail about doing just that. To pretend otherwise might as well just be WWE in pads. Oh wait, they tried that and it went bankrupt after just 1 season.

  15. beefcurtain says:

    I remember one season the Seahawks were taking out all sorts of players, Duece McAlister, by Trufaunt, Duece held a vendetta. Then Mike Vick when they played up here. I’m sure there’s a few others, but I think all players know who the playmakers are and want to take them out of the game. Bounty!!…who knows?

  16. “These “pep talks” are common, but at the pro level, that is unacceptable. He’s talking about ruining a man’s livelihood, and perhaps life. I get that it’s a vicious game and I love the violence of it, but it doesn’t require an idiot making it worse with incentivized barbarism on top of it all. He should be banned for life, IMO.”

    Yeah, I agree with all of that. I’m really pretty surprised he talked about things like ACL’s and capitalizing on another player’s concussion. I know it’s a violent sport, but I’d think every Saints player knows they are one ACL injury away from losing their livelihood too, and wouldn’t want to be part of that. I guess, playing for him, you couldn’t really speak out otherwise. Makes Willimas’ conduct that much worse.

  17. ProFootballTalk is reporting that Seattle is considering moving Kam Chancellor to OLB–I assume SAM–and drafting Matt Bowen at SS, if they cant move down and get Donta Hightower.

    I cant see it. One of the best things Caroll did was draft Kam and keep him at SS. Great outside the box thinking! And it worked wonders, with Kam making the Pro Bowl his first year starting. Why would you go back to being vanilla?! Why spend a first round pick on a SS when you allready have a Pro Bowler there, and you have major needs at RT, G, DE, DT, LB, Rb….?!

    Im not going to believe any of that unless and until it happens. Though Kam would make a heck of a LB in theory–he’s fast and can cover any TE, and although a bit undersized for LB, he lays the wood.

  18. HarbaughsMother says:

    I’m not sure why, maybe the Notre Dame factor, but Carlson was always a bigger name than his production warranted.

  19. ryanryan says:

    holmgren LOVED carleson…early on it looked like he would have a really solid career, albiet not flashy. hopefully the change of scenery will do him well, i always liked him – but not his production.

    i am pretty disgusted with the comments made in his ‘motivational’ speach there…all the talk advocating and demanding hitting gore in the head in the pile is pretty terrible. this is the way he feeds his family and it is a short lived career without illegal as hell ‘competing’ by the saints.

    again i will raise the point that the players union should be addressing this issue with their members and should hold them accountable for their actions. it goes against everything their union has been fighting for, it really boggles my mind.

  20. ryanryan says:

    i agree with you sttbm – moving kam is IMO a stupid move. it would be removing a great element (a linebacker with the ability to play safety) from your defense that not a lot of teams have the talent to field. i can see using him at lb in that sub package they use, but to move him to lb in our base defense isn’t what i’d like to see them do.

    i say they should draft or sign what they need and keep what they have. i don’t think they will move kam, but the thought doesn’t please me one bit.

  21. There is a live fan mock draft in progress with Miami on the clock.

  22. I’m not sure why, maybe the Notre Dame factor, but Carlson was always a bigger name than his production warranted.

    As has been with ND since Montana played there! Just like they are always ranked 5-10 spots higher than they should be.

  23. I wouldn’t trust any information that is “leaked” about who a team might draft a month before the draft.

  24. Drafting a safety in the 1st round doesn’t make any sense. That would be two in three years. We hear that drafting a third offensive lineman in three years would be too much, but at least there are five of them, whereas there are only two at safety. You don’t take a young guy who just played in the Pro Bowl at SS and move him to a different position. Really, all the safety or non-rushing linebackers in the world really aren’t going to matter much if we continue to suck at rushing the passer.

    People forget or choose not to remember that we went through a stretch (a win streak) this past season when we played some of the worst QBs in the league. When you’re facing some of the worst QBs in the NFL (that help you to a top 10 defense) in the last half of the season, it can help mask the fact that your pass rush sucks. I doubt we get as lucky with opposing injuries at QB next season (like playing Bradford twice on one leg, Caleb Hanie (Cutler hurt), VY (Vick hurt), etc. Or just facing a team with a crap situation (Sexy Rexy – who beat our defense). This means our defense must really legitimately be better, b/c if its production stays the same, its stats are going to go down quite a bit b/c of the vastly improved QB play that it’s going to face.

    Personally, I just think it’s the organization putting this nugget out there to throw people off. They have proved they are smarter than this.

  25. SandpointHawk says:

    Well if anyone in the NFL knows how to spin the press it’s Pete. John is picking up the formula very quickly. No one has any idea who they will pick in the draft or what scheme they will play next year….Over, under, sideways or round, no one knows, just sit back and enjoy the ride.

  26. SandpointHawk says:

    That’s was “Over, under, sideways or down”, for the old timers like me; but I modified it because I won’t accept down as an option….

  27. This org keeps their cards close to the vest and miss direction is not out of the question especially in this year’s draft with so many different options to choose from. Last thing they want to do is fall in love with someone, telegraph that to the league and bring about a leapfrog scenario.

    For our defensive “stats” to remain the same as last year one of two things need to happen. Real improvement in our pass rush taking place is one. Our offense keeping possession of the ball longer would be another. Both of those combined is ideal.

    Outside the division, health permitting, we are looking at facing Rodgers, Brady, Newton, Cutler & Stafford among the bigger names at qb. Let’s find our rush, pretty plz with sugar on top!

  28. Someone needs to please slap me, but the more I think of trading down a bit and drafting Fleener, I’m okay with that (assuming the desired options like Mercilus are gone). Look what Gronk/Graham have done for their respective teams.

    Maybe that pick used to trade down could be used to send to Indy for Freeney (who they made it known is available and even though they now took it back, we all know full well they’d trade him). We have the cap room and even though Clem had more sacks last season, if we use common sense, we all know that Freeney is still better (when did Indy have many guaranteed pass rush situations this past season playing with the lead?).

    The addition of Freeney would certainly dictate the type of manner in which the RDE is used this season (over/under).

    Look, I have no interest in trading a 3rd round pick (unless it’s “free”) for a guy on the wrong side of 30, but I’d most certainly do it if we got a 3rd round pick in exchange for moving down and still had a 1st rounder (might not make sense). That would solve the pass rush problem, big time! At least for now. And when you have a defense as young as ours, I don’t think it’s so bad to add an old warhorse like Freeney thrown in to take this defense to another level.

    Freeney wouldn’t have to play every snap (which would make him more effective when he did play), as Clem could spell him sometimes. We know Big Red shouldn’t be on the field in pass rush situations, so Clem could terrorize QBs from LDE at that time, too (which means he’d come close to playing starter minutes – and more fresh as the season wore on for all).

    Another thing with Clem – he’s good, but he disappears for a game or two here and there. You know damn well that the LTs that he may “disappear” against may be guys that Freeney could/would get results against. Mr. Happy is good at match-ups and you can bet this would be great for our defense. As is, right now, we’re screwed if Clem has one of his “disappear” games.

    Some people around here seem to think we already have too many starting DEs, but having three really good DEs for only two spots on the field is a position I’d really like to find ourselves in, especially since one of them can’t rush the passer at all.

    All in all, I don’t want Fleener if it means that we don’t address the pass rush situation. Let me be clear about that. But maybe we can have our cake and eat it too?

  29. chuck_easton says:

    LB or DE. I can’t see them going any other direction.

    We don’t need another 1st round OL, Safety, CB, QB (thanks to Bobby’s campaign…I think the FO was afraid NOT to sign Flynn for fear of what Bobby would do), RB or WR/TE.

    Defensive front 7 in the 1st round (or two) and things are good to go.

  30. Bobby, sorry to say but you are going to have to slap yourself. Make sure you film and post it too. Just for fun though, not for suggesting we draft Fleener. We could make a good case for 10 different guys and still have room to add to that list for our 1st round draft selection(whichever number we actually select at).

    Originally I loved DeCastro(still do). Added Brockers and Perry to the mix. Then Ingram, Upshaw, Mercilus, Flyod, and Kuechly joined the party at different times. Fleener makes sense too. I’m even starting to warm up to the idea of drafting Coples with the hope Mr. motivator can spark the guy.

    If we are chasing geriatrics at DE Freeney certainly has the resume. Osi might be pried from NY also in anticipation of not re-signing him next season. That sort of move is generally made when you believe you are “one step away”, but hell, with a full season of… seasoning, maybe that move puts us over the top. I’m guessing our breakout will be the 2013 season but here’s to being wrong on the early side.

  31. Bobby, I’d be happy to slap you. Ha. But drafting Fleener in the first might be a great option for the Seahawks. Pass rusher is a huge need, but questions abound about all the top prospects. WR is a huge need, but impact WRs are lacking in this draft. There will be a can’t-miss OG and a can’t-miss MLB at 12, but if Pete seeks a big impact player at 12 then he may pass on DeCastro and Kuechly.

    That’s where Fleener makes sense. TE is a need and Fleener could be an impact player. He is nearly a WR in the open field but he can team with Miller in 2-TE sets. Pete and Cable love 2-TE sets. Fleener could be the pick at 12, or a little later if they trade down. But I wouldn’t be so sure that Fleener slides far past 12.

    One more thing – Matt Flynn’s arm for deep routes will never be feared. Neither will TJack’s. Having two great TEs fits Carroll’s idea of not needing that kind of QB to win.

  32. “One more thing – Matt Flynn’s arm for deep routes will never be feared. Neither will TJack’s. Having two great TEs fits Carroll’s idea of not needing that kind of QB to win.”

    One b/c of arm strength (Flynn), one b/c of accuracy issues (TJack). That’s part of why I singled out Fleener. He’d be great for us. Hugely tall = mismatches. I’m not saying he’ll be Gronk, b/c that dude can run block too, but I’d love to have him.

    Again, let me be clear that I want a pass rusher first and foremost at #12. I have no interest in a non-pass rushing LB even though many are up in a tizzy about it (and I don’t agree w/any of you for good reasons). I only want Fleener if we can pick up a pick and trade it for the pass rushing help that is a must.

  33. Yep, agreed. And speaking of pass rushers, it will be interesting to see what PC and Schneids do if Coples slides and is available at 12 as many are now predicting. As a Jr, Coples looked like the next Julius Peppers, but after his lackluster Sr year he now seems look a bit ‘Aaron Curry-esque’. I wonder what Pete thinks of him.

  34. I can tell you this much, in over 10 years of coaching football, from both the offensive, defensive, and head coach position, I’ve NEVER said or heard other coaches say anything about taking out players knees, head hunting those with a history of concussions, nor anything else that so blatantly endorses injury. That said, I have personally said my fair share of things that I wouldn’t take home to momma. Most of them were of the emotional, profanity laced type of things intended to shock and get players juiced up. But suggesting to injure someone or worse yet suggesting they should specifically go after someones head is borderline criminal. It’s sad to think that someone would advocate ruining another man’s career or potentially taking their life, as a means to “fire” up their team. Disgusting imo.

  35. Dukeshire says:

    Well, if Fleener is truly a Jimmy Graham clone, the mismatches will be available in nearly every down and distance. He’d out-physical safeties, and get separation from LBs. Split him out and I can’t think of a corner who can matchup. If they can trade back, Fleener provides an element Seattle does not have, currently.

  36. Kam Chancellor shot down the rumors of him moving to LB on twitter.

    “I guess ya’ll believe everything you read?”

    or something extremely close to that effect.

  37. “Someone needs to please slap me, but the more I think of trading down a bit and drafting Fleener, I’m okay with that (assuming the desired options like Mercilus are gone). Look what Gronk/Graham have done for their respective teams.”

    I’m kind of with you on this – would love to get Flynn a playmaking TE. It is always trickier that you would think to trade down, but if we could pull it off and grab the DE or LB we need in early round 2, would be great to get this guy. Seems unlikely given that we just signed Miller, but fun to think about.

  38. BobbyK, I would like Fleener also. I’ve said this before on here, but I believe our scheme on defense allows us to find guys tailored to it later on or via udfa. It’s similar to the way Oregon is able to recruit guys who fit their style specifically and other teams don’t value quite as much.

    On offense, we have to compete with a lot of other teams for the same talent. It seems like most of our big moves in FA have been on that side of the ball, and that’s for good reason.

    Truth be told, I’m such a homer, I like speculating but no matter what we do, I will love the pick. I knew everything there was to know (and there wasn’t much lol) about James Carpenter last year before the first round was over.

    I like the idea of drafting offense in the first (and hopefully picking up a pick) and finding a long-armed defensive end who can take advantage of the crowd noise in the 2nd or 3rd.

  39. The only thing about drafting Fleener that I don’t like is that it would make more sense to sign a blocking TE and free up Zach Miller, a proven pass-catching TE in the league. I wonder why we haven’t done that. Holmgren loved the blocking TE’s, seems like we went through quite a few of them during his tenure. Hard to believe Will Heller is still playing lol..

  40. Fleener has the height and speed that Miller doesn’t have to create mismatches. He’s more of an underneath (and effective, provided the offense has no WRs that can catch, as in Oakland) type of guy.

  41. Rob Rang seemed fairly excited about Fleener yesterday during the chat in response to “Guest’s” question. For those who didn’t get a chance to read it:

    Comment From Guest
    What are the chances Seattle takes Fleener in the first round (even if they can’t move down)? I know defense and pash rush in the consensus amongst media and fans, but I think Fleener is a guy who will be a top player at his position and will create match up nighmares for opposing teams.
    Excellent question. I believe Fleener is going to wind up as a top 20 pick. There are few teams with obvious needs at TE to warrant such a pick, but coming off a 2011 season in which Gronk, Graham, etc. demonstrated just how effective these matchup nightmares can be, I believe some team is going to shock everyone. That team could be Seattle… If you’re going to build a team around a relatively weak-armed QB, he’d damn well better have some weapons.

  42. I hope Roy Lewis comes back at a reasonable salary. I’d like him back in the nickel. He’s solid (if the knee is healthy).

  43. I personally don’t get the interest you guys have in Fleener. We really don’t need another TE, certainly not with an early round draft choice. If we do draft a TE, one I like abit later (round 4) is Ladarius Green from Lafayette.

  44. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Fleener before Decastro? I don’t think so!

    Now if he some how falls to the second round, then I would consider moving up to get him, however not before Stephen Hill.

    It would be nice though to get a couple more Stanford players this year!

  45. GeorgiaHawk says:

    By the way, every time I tried to post on the live chat with Rang my posts would not show up?

    Perhaps that had something to do with me posting a few weeks back that you could take any five mock drafts and average them out and still come up better than Rang’s mocks. Lol.

  46. G HAWK
    I don’t think so. You, me and most everyone else on this blog is not that important with acception to Robert K and possibly Big D

  47. I would never take Fleener before DeCastro. That wasn’t the argument.

    I’d rather have Andrew Luck than Jared Crick, but it’s not going to come to that either.

    My point was that I’d rather have a later 1st round pick like Fleener ***AND*** a player, like Dwight Freeney, who could clearly be had for a 2nd or more likely 3rd round pick (if that’s the pick we got back for trading down in the 1st), so long as they weren’t our picks that we gave up to get him on their own (and there’s cap space to make it happen).

    It would solve our #1 issue (limited pass rush) ***AND*** add a good player/pick who could help us get the ball in the end zone. If you have Rice, BMW, and Fleener, you can really create some problems for a defense with their height.

  48. Thanks, Carson, for the quote from Kam. Good to hear it straight from the player’s mouth.

  49. I would love to have fleener in the first but we are not that good of a team yet to have the luxury of that pick in the first.

  50. I won’t be surprised if Fleener gets drafted ahead of DeCastro. I’m not saying I’d pass on DeCastro, but some consider Fleener one of the top ball-handlers in this draft, a rare playmaker in a draft that lacks top WR prospects. Teams tend to reach for impact players in the draft and let guards slide, no matter how good. With so few top receivers available, somebody will jump for Fleener.

  51. Bobby k Bingo!!!spot on money!!now that is great insight and football intelligence! I couldn’t agree more.Most right on idea I’ve read since I’ve been creating havoc on this blog.thank you for that!!!

  52. One interesting thought I’ve had lately! We must not forget a few years back when we had two rookie linebackers starting for the hawks! Leroy/Lofa and all they did was kick serous ass!

  53. maddog12 says:

    BobbyK just wants to see Flynn to Fleener for a Flee D.

  54. HawkfaninMT says:

    Why is nobody talking about Allen in these TE discussions? I dont see a Gronk-lite player this year, but IMO Allen is close to the Graham/Arron Hernandez type TE in this draft

  55. If you have Rice, BMW, and Fleener, you can really create some problems for a defense with their height.

    Provided they are smart enought to actually put them all on the field. I know it was a different OC but I used to get soo tired of having Butler and Tate on the field in goal line situations and not using Carlson, Williams or Obo!

  56. jawpeace says:

    @ GeorgiaHawk I had the same problem as only one of my three went through the very first one; and I complained about the swoosh on the shoulder and had a Bobby Wagner question. Rang did not like any question related to the jersey and then I must have got the red letter A = avoid… lol

  57. “Fleener has the height and speed that Miller doesn’t have to create mismatches. He’s more of an underneath (and effective, provided the offense has no WRs that can catch, as in Oakland) type of guy.” – BobbyK

    Bobby, I hear you, but my response would be:

    Zach Miller: 295 receptions for 2945 yards in the National Football League.

    Underneath guy or not, he’s a talented guy who we could better utilize by having a blocking tight end on the team. Those catches aren’t easy to come by, regardless of the WR’s. That Gregg Williams audio really shines a light on how tough these guys are.

    If our O-line continues to improve, it may not be as much of an issue – but I’m not so confident in McCoy and Morrah that I don’t think they’re expendable.

  58. Zach Miller is 6’5″ and ran a 4.53. He’s no slouch.

    Granted, Fleener is 6’6″ and ran a 4.45 :)

    Having both, while a luxury, would just be amazing.

  59. Having two monster TEs is pretty much a necessity for this offense. Either Morrah needs to step up in a big way in 2012, or we need another starting caliber TE.

    Rice – usually injured
    BMW – slow and unable to get open
    Baldwin – slot receiver
    Obomanu – average flanker
    Tate – knucklehead

    When Rice is on the bench injured, there is nothing in our receiver corps to scare anybody.

    A 6’6″ TE with WR skills would give this offense a new dimension.

  60. So how do we get Upshaw, Ingram, Coples, DeCastro and Fleener? I keep going back and forth between all of them and could make a great case for any one of them on this team.

    I think, ironically, it’s a testament to the team Pete Carroll and John Schneider have built here. There aren’t weaknesses on this team that are so glaring they must be addressed round one regardless of how the board shakes out. You could argue pass-rush is that desperate, but I think history has shown us that the front office finds a way to make things happen with specialty players through various avenues. We haven’t even gotten to the fun part of free agency, just after the draft, when we bring in undrafted free agents, make trades for under-utilized role players on other teams and sign 6’9″ corners from the CFL.

  61. Southendzone says:

    I’m not ready to spend a high draft pick on a great TE prospect when our Offense hasn’t shown it knows how to utilize one effectively. Last year we were all drooling about how great Miller would be, then he ends up blocking his ass off the whole year.

    It’s not his fault I’m sure he would have loved to be running around catching balls. I blame it on the O. Coordinator. He hasn’t proven he knows what to do with a great TE so let’s not give him another. Cable on the other hand has shown he knows how to build an effective run game, let’s get DeCastro and make it even better!

  62. When Lynch is running then Cable know what is doing, but when Miller is blocking in pass pro, then OC is guilty for our OL not being able to hold Def enough time without him. People are so blacn & white

  63. Nice to hear the Kam Chancellor thing is smokescreen BS. I thought so, but it was worth jawing about, no?!

    One reason we need a TE–and I guarantee Seattle drafts one–is that behind Miller, we have no blocking depth, and no one capable of starting. McCoy is big, but cant block–Obomanu blocks better–and has concrete hands. He’s not making the team, barring a huge leap forward. Morrah cant block either, and has made KEY drops (Bears playoff game etc).

    We have no backup to Miller. And Bevell loves 2- TE sets. We need another Do it all TE, or at least a fast tall guy who is reliable.

    Same reason we need a good back like Lynch in the draft; what if Miller or Lynch get hurt? Without depth–which we lack–we’ll be screwed.

    I still hate the idea of taking Fleener at 12. I could see Floyd, a guy who could be our #1 since Rice is a one-year wonder, but not a TE. But the need is there. Ladarius Green will likely be there in the second, and he’s a stud too.

    It seems to me with the wierd Chancellor/draft a SS/Fleener talk, Seattle is trying to make teams that have targeted these guys later in the first round nervous enough to trade up with us. Its a pretty obvious ploy. Just as its obvious that the Cowturds will spread rumors about a guy they love through the media to make them fall. Just like Dez Bryant. Seattle isnt that sleazy though. No false rumor mongering LOL!

  64. GeorgiaHawk says:

    I really do like Fleener! Just not at 12. Now if we trade down, ( especially if it is just ahead of the 49ers), then I’m all for drafting Fleener.

    I still have high hopes for Miller, and for Rice,(for that matter), to rebound from last year.
    And I hope at least the FO has a chance to draft DeCastro and/or Kuechly at 12, however Carolina seems to be high on Kuechly and KC could snag DeCastro.

    Oh Well, Can’t have everything.

  65. I hate Fleener at #12.

    I’d say the reason for the big numbers that Miller put up was incompetence by Raider WRs when he was in Oakland. They had to go to him. I’m not saying Miller sucks, not one bit, if you think I think he sucks you’re wrong, I’m just saying you’re going to put up better numbers if you’re the number one option for a team in the receiving department.

    As has been said, we have shown no ability to use TEs properly. It would help if we had a RT that could pass block, but we don’t. Looks like Miller is going to waste away again unless theyget a blocking TE (which means that’s what we should get over Fleener).

    At the same time, we have seen what Gronk/Graham types (tall/athletic) did in the NFL last year and it’s a copycat league. While Miller is a good player, he doesn’t create those mismatches nearly as much.

  66. If Matt Flynn can play the way I expect him to and the OL continues help Lynch, I expect Sidney Rice to be a top 10 WR in the NFL. Personally, I think he’s a top 3-5 type of guy, but I should say top 10 to be on the safe side. He’s a stud.

    Now, for that darn staying healthy part!!! That’s his only knock but it’s a HUGE one.

  67. bobbyk–Rice has the potential to be a top-10 WR, but he only has performed well one year in his career. He had what–two good games for us last year? So far its all potential, and no reality with Rice. He’s got to cut those dreads or he’s gonna keep getting concussions every time his head hits the ground. Helmets dont fit right with hair that thickly dreaded, and it leads to concussions. Never mind his shoulders…or his hip…or his ankle issues…

    Seattle seriously overpaid for Miller. He’s worth maybe what the Vikings gave up for Carlson, no more. ANd he isnt gonna get targeted 60 times a year, much less catch that many passes.

    As for not having a RT who can pass block, thats not true. Giacomini is decent in pass pro, far better than Carpenter. He’s not great, but he’s decent and improving. Im actually happier with him at RT than if Carpenter was healthy and there. While I wish Moffitt and Carpenter were our G’s, you take what you can get.

    Rice reminds me of DJ Hackett–a seriously talented player who gets hurt every game. Hackett never had a 1,300 yard season, but he certainly showed potential. He had the best 6-game streak Ive seen a Seattle reciever have since Largent in the mid-eighties. Yet injuries kept him out of too many games, and later ruined his speed and agility and led to early retirement. I wouldnt be surprised to see Rice out of football in a year. Certainly Seattle will cut his ass if he doesnt stay healthy and rack up at least 1200 yards.

  68. I dont mean to imply Miller isnt a fine football player–he’s a top-10 TE IMO, since he’s a rare pass-catching TE who can also block. He just has an extravagant salary. Seattle has 14 million bucks a year tied up in Rice and Miller, and got about the same production out of them combined they could have gotten from the 12-15th rated WR. A real shame that so much money and cap space and roster space was tied up with so little return on investment.

    Just as with Deion Branch, or Duckett/Jones, too much invested for too little returns.

  69. We’re watching different RTs in pass pro because I thought Carp and Breno were both brutal in pass “protection” last year. At least Carp had the rookie card to play for his incompetence, Breno was a 4-year veteran who still couldn’t pass block. I sure liked his run blocking and attitude though. If this team wants to actually use a TE in its passing game and Riley Reiff is available at #12, then maybe that’s what they should do (although that doesn’t fix what’s most important – the pass rush). He’d also be LT insurance for Okung.

    Rice is fine when healthy. Again, the “when” healthy part is what sucks. He’s also played with incompetence at QB his entire career, minus when Favre came in for ’09. When Favre was healthy to start ’10, Rice was out. By the time Rice came back, Favre was almost about done. Granted, Flynn isn’t going to be as good as Favre, but we’re all expecting more this year from our QB and WRs. If Rice plays this season the way I expect, he’s going to have 8-10 TDs and over 1,100 yards.

  70. Dukeshire says:

    Health aside (a big suspension, granted) Rice is a top 5 WR. When he plays, he’s productive. For me, it’s A. Johnson, C. Johnson, Fitz, R. White, and Rice. I think that much of him. (I make a distinction between wideouts and slot guys here, for the record.)

  71. Top 5? Besides the guys you mentioned, you’re saying you’d take Rice over AJ Green, Mike Wallace, Miles Austin, Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Steve Smith? I’d trade him for Julio Jones too.

    We’re not overly talented at WR/TE position, an upgrade would be great for Flynn.

  72. Southendzone, and BobbyK – I can totally see where you’re coming from. Our TEs have been a big disappointment the past two years.

    But I have a hard time blaming that on anyone except our O line. (two rookies, two inexperienced journeymen, and a LT with two gimpy ankles). The start of last season, our O line was a LOT WORSE and a LOT MORE INEXPERIENCED than people seem to remember. They were not ready to execute anything and needed TE help all year. TEs weren’t released into passing routes early enough or often enough to be a big part of the passing game. But the O line make big strides of improvement over the final few games of the season and should again.

    Its up to Bevell to prove he knows how to use the TE talent, but with a much-improving line and a QB like Flynn I would expect that Bevell will now want all the TE pass routes he can get on the field in 2012.

  73. Specifically, inept pass “protection” from the person who lines up next to the TE, which is the RT?

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