Seahawks Insider

Morning links: Orton an undervalued QB

Post by Eric Williams on May 27, 2011 at 7:29 am with 45 Comments »
May 27, 2011 7:29 am

ESPN’s KC Joyner uses a statistical look at Denver’s Kyle Orton to argue that he could be the best quarterback available whenever free agency begins this year. You must be an ESPN Insider to view the article.

“Last season, Orton posted 7.5 yards per attempt (YPA). This total ranked tied with Eli Manning and David Garrard for the ninth-highest overall YPA in the NFL. (Note: This YPA total includes attempts and yards racked up on penalty plays such as pass interference, defensive holding, illegal contact, etc.)

“That wasn’t the only place where Orton ranked in the top 10. He also placed 10th in vertical YPA with an 11.5 mark (vertical passes being defined as those thrown 11 or more yards downfield) and had the fourth-best YPA (18.7) on bomb passes (thrown 20 or more yards).

“And his case can actually be taken back further than just this past year. Since 2008, 17 quarterbacks have won at least 20 regular-season games, an elite group including Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers and Orton.”

Vince Verhei of Football Outsiders takes a look at the biggest post-draft holes in NFC West teams. For Seattle, he believes that is the defensive line.

You ever wonder why the Seahawks don’t throw to Marshawn Lynch much out of the backfield? The Cal product is in the bottom 10 running back in drop percentage from 2008 to 2010, according to Pro Football Focus.

Clare Farnsworth of writes about the team’s struggles in 2006 following Seattle’s Super Bowl run a year earlier.

Jim Trotter of Sports Illustrated offers a pretty interesting read on the labor situation from the players’ perspective with an unvarnished interview with New Orleans quarterback Drew Brees. It’s definitely worth a read this morning.

Marty Callinan of ESPN Stats and Info explores Kevin Kolb’s struggles on third down. Kolb’s passer rating against five-or-more defensive backs, which you predominantly see on third down, over the last three seasons is 66.4. That puts him in the same company with guys like J.T. O’Sullivan (66.0), Dan Orlovsky (64.1) and former Cardinal Matt Leinart (68.0).

Dating back to 2008, the average passer rating for NFL quarterbacks against those small packages is 79.6.

Les Bowen of the Philadelphia Daily News talks to Kevin Kolb, who showed up to Eagles’ informal player workouts this week. Kolb reiterated his desire to be traded, but also said he “won’t be a turd” if he remains in Philadelphia.

Mike Florio of believes teams should not ask employees to take pay cuts during the lockout. I agree.

Jason Cole of Yahoo Sports agrees with Indianapolis Colts owner Jim Irsay’s deadline of July 4 to get a deal done in order for the league to hold free agency and play a full slate of games.

Jim Corbett of USA Today interviews former Arizona quarterback Kurt Warner, who says players have to compromise in order to get a deal done.

Brian Billick of Fox Sports offers some things coaching staffs can do to better prepared for the upcoming season during the lockout with no players around.

No Seahawk makes Pete Prisco of CBS Sports’ list of potential breakout players for 2011.

Andrew Brandt of the National Football Post writes that NFL coaches are caught in the crossfire of the league’s labor dispute and must straddle both sides of the fence.

Morning links
Leave a comment Comments → 45
  1. Dukeshire says:

    That Trotter piece on Brees’ views is great, regardless what side of the issue one may fall. He is well spoken, straightforward and despite his obvious anger, refrains from the rancorous name-calling that has permeated the two sides’ statements through the media since this began. I can’t help but wonder if he’d have any interest in becoming the next “Gene Upshaw” for the union after he retires?

    (Oh by the way, Chester Pitts… this is how a teams’ player representative ought to conduct themselves. Not with cutesy little skits about crank-calling the commissioner. At least IMO)

    It’s interesting to me that Lynch ranks that low on the drop % list from ’08-’10 but not in the bottom ten for only the ’10 season. He had 22 receptions (25 catchable balls are required to make the list) so I wonder if he has improved his receiving and that he ranks that low simply because of awful ’08-’09 seasons?

  2. Duke, agreed on the Chester Pitts comment.

  3. Its interesting to me that Brees says 50-50 is fair.

    Why does Brees feel the players are entitled to 50% of any profit? Are they liable for 50% of the risk? Do they manage 50% of the business? No, they are employees who are lucky enough to play the game of football for a living. They are employees, they should be paid whatever their boss is willing to pay and their fair market value.

    The players are employees – not owners, not part owners not even business managers.

  4. So, why is Orton undervalued?

  5. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Hey, what do you all think the chances of a few eccentric billionaires with little to do, trying to form a new pro football team. Turner? Trump? Dukeshire? Anyone?
    It’s been tried before.

  6. Limbaugh is said to be trying to buy into a new LA team(?) Do you mean starting another league?

  7. Blocis,
    That is a good point.

  8. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Yes, a new league. If the players are smart then they would be wise to woo up to a new breed of billionaires. At least for leverage purposes.

  9. Dukeshire says:

    GeorgiaHawk – “eccentric billionaires with little to do…” I fulfill 2/3s of those requirements. lol. (Sadly, the one I’m missing is the only one I really care about. lol)

  10. DFloydd says:

    YES! let’s pool our funds and start a new Seahawks Team: i can contribute at least $15.00. Already have the GMs: Duke & Bobby K. (responsible for getting the right players). Coaches: Chuck Easton, Pabuwal, KLM008, Audible & GeorgiaHawk. I would happily offer my services as tackling dummy/ball boy.

  11. Palerydr says:

    I’d like to define what that 50% is of profit. What exactly does this Profit do? does it go to the players in the form of a cash payment ie. salaries? does it go towards player retirements and long term health care? Where are these “profits” for the players going?

    So I play for team X and my jersey sales are #1 in the world but I don’t see any of that profit why not? Put yourself in that position and honestly say “yea that’s ok that owner of team X puts ALL that money in his pocket from sales of jerseys with MY NAME on them, I’m good with that.” Would you really be?

    What is the owners share of this other 50%? Profits they put in the bank and what else? Is this money that is above and beyond the operating expenses of a football team? economically speaking in simple terms Profit= Revenue – costs.

    As employees the players have a right to ask to see the books due to the NFL owners having special exemptions to operate their business the way they do because right now it’s a monopoly. Sure other leagues can start up but with anti trust laws that have been granted the NFL doesn’t have to help these start ups. The way I understand it is with out anti trust law to back them up they would be obligated to share information on how to run a professional league. This isn’t a simple case of employees vs employers.

  12. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Eric, with your insider connections, perhaps you can get the new league ideas rolling?
    Heck, perhaps Allen would just let the Seahawks go back to the NFL and join in?

    DFloydd, you can be our CEO.

    And Dukeshire, 2/3rds is good enough. The money can come from the fans, just like Greenbay.

  13. pabuwal says:

    Blocis – we need to do this your way and make this a true “free market system.” We need to get rid of the draft and any rules that govern a salary cap and length of service for free agency. This has to be as free of a system as we all enjoy as “normal” workers.

    But, guess what happens from a financial point of view? Franchise values will plummet as the owners no longer have cost certainty. As the values and cash flow plummet, their massive franchise and stadium debt will go into default and they will no longer own their teams as the banks will take possession. I haven’t even touched upon the anti-trust issues or competitive balance issues that will destroy whatever league is left.

  14. williambryan says:

    Blocis, These aren’t just any employees. If the employees strike or quit or what have you, people wont pay to watch the nfl and the owners will have no teams to own (of value anyways). The players are the NFL. I am not a seahawks fan because of Paul Allen, If the NFL as we know it were to cease to exist, more ridiculously rich people would start another football organization and hire the best athletes. Why do you think the XFL and UFL and AFL weren’t able or haven’t been able to catch on??? Because they dont have Mike Vick, Peyton Manning, Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, and so on. The players are the NFL and they deserve as much as they can get.

  15. chuck_easton says:


    So, you only pay to watch the players. So when Rob SIms got traded to the Lions you stopped being a Seahawks fan because you really wanted to root for Sims?

    So, if Hasselbeck doesn’t re-sign with Seattle you will start rooting for whatever team he signs for because you really root for the Seattle Hasselbecks?

    I root for the Seattle Seahawks. Players come and go. Yes they are talented players but they can and will be replaced. In the 70’s and 80’s I was a huge Jim Zorn and Steve Largent fan not because I loved the players so much but because they were wearing Seattle Seahawk Uniforms. I do not root for Payton Manning not because I don’t like him but because he has a helmet with a horseshoe on it and not a Seahawk.

    I root for the team, not the players. Whatever 53 players wear that uniform next season will be my 53 favorite players. When those 53 are gone there will be a new 53 that will become my favorite players.

    The players are not the NFL. The players are just a bunch of very talented guys wearing 32 different uniforms. The 32 teams are the NFL.

    On this point we definitely disagree.

  16. In this new league will defensive players be allowed to tackle, or will they have to start playing flag football like the NFL is heading towards?

  17. Hi guys….. we are all right, it is a complicated issue.

    I agree with Chuck, I cheer for the Seahawks, regardless of who is in the uniform. Sometimes I even dislike the peron (Jeramy, Koren), but I still cheer for them and the team they play on. I prefer to watch the best players in the world, but if they won’t play for the owners in the conditions offered, I will watch players that will. And there will be lots of players willing to play for what the owners are offering.

    pabuwal – I like what you say, but I fundamentally disagree that free market would destroy the league. The league owners are business men…. they would have to manage their team and payroll well. Invest big money in the wrong players and their franchise could lose money for years. Free market works for smart business men – the dumb ones go out of business. Collusion is an interesting point – is it collusion when all 32 teams decided to pass on (say) Pacman Jones or Jamarcus Russell? No, its not collusion, its 32 businesses all making a good decision. So if all 32 teams decide on a rookie salary cap, why is that collusion? The rookies are free to sign the capped contract or not. I guess my point is, the owners are the owners. They should have the right to manage their business, maximize their profit and minimize their risk. Its what all good business men do.

  18. chuck_easton says:


    Thanks for the vote of confidence but from a legal standpoint if all 32 teams were to independently set a rookie wage scale without a collective bargaining agreement that would be price fixing and would be the very definition of collusion and anti-trust.

    That is why the NFL can’t operate in a true free market system and it is also why the government has granted sporting leagues anti trust exemptions. They are, in essence, saying that they fully admit that sporting leagues violate anti trust laws but there is no way to run the league without doing so.

    Otherwise there is nothing to stop a team from having as many or as few players as it wants. There is nothing from stopping a team from paying its players as much or as little as it wants. You can’t have a draft because you are limiting a players ability to sign wherever he wants. You can’t have trades because a player has no say in where he goes in a trade.

  19. GeorgiaHawk says:

    klm008- In the new league defensive players will not only have to tackle, they will have to hit like they did in the 70s and 80s.
    No dresses on QBs!

  20. If you cannot view an espn insider article why post it?

  21. Aghhhhhhhh! Ecstasy! I’m finally on this flippin site after reading it for two years and not being able to get on. Look out!

  22. GeorgiaHawk says:

    Anyone out there for a game of electric football? If not then we can perhaps play flag football in a cow pasture. Come on, if you are good then you may avoid the cow pies.

    I would like to get all the owners out in a cow pasture right now, and especially the buzzards,I mean lawyers!

  23. Dukeshire says:

    GeorgiaHawk – Perhaps Deacon Jones could teach a defensive seminar or two, in this new league. Forearm Shivers and The Club 101.

    “Sacking a QB is just like, devastating a city.” Deacon Jones

  24. Blocis, you are an idiot. Read what WilliamBryan wrote and you might learn something.

    The NFL players are not “Lucky” to be able to play football for a living! You are just spouting the same BS that a lot of moron fans have regurgitated for years. Luckily most posters on here are smart enough not to write that drivel. NFL players did not win a f*&^ing lottery to get into the NFL. They possess unique skills that they have honed with hard work. People like you and me enjoy watching their unique skills and are willing to pay money to do so hence, they are in the NFL.

    As far as risk goes, are the owners putting their bodies at risk? Has any owner ever been paralyzed on the field? Do the owners have a 90 % chance of being permanently disabled in some capacity if they play at least 3 years? Nope! That’s the players buddy. The owners really don’t take any financial risk at this point. The league is so popular right now that a trained chimp could own a team. The risk they are taking is with the popularity of the league by locking out the players because they are GREEDY! They want to play more and more games and monopolize new revenue streams so that they can get their grubby little hands on as much money as they can. And they won’t even open their books up! They just expect the players to trust them on how much money they make like the players are their children. It’s already been shown by some MLB teams and their owners that they are capable of lying about their bottom line. It shouldn’t be shocking that people will lie about money and that it should be expected that people open up their books when they are collectively bargaining.

    Lastly, you act like the government or some other entity is stopping the owners from running their businesses the way they want to. The owners can go ahead and try to dictate terms to the players like you believe they should be able to. One problem! The players also have rights in a free market. They have the right to unionize and strike if they do not like their working conditions. And they have major leverage because they possess unique skills. They are not McDonald’s workers. People pay to watch the players play, not the owners to sit on their fat behinds. Anyways, the owners chose to lock the players out in a time of record profits. So why are you blaming the players????????

  25. Chuck Easton, I believe that you missed WilliamBryan’s point. Yes, of course we all root for our individual teams. But we also root for players and only enjoy the game because they maintain a certain level of skill and entertainment. Would you really just root for the Seahawks no matter what 53 losers they put out there? You would root for them if 53 fat asses with no talent at football were out there playing? You would hand over your hard earned money to support that? I find that hard to believe unless your a lemming! So at the most basic level we are paying to watch the players!

  26. Dukeshire says:

    Thanks for all the hyperbole, but here is absolutely no reason to call others idiots because they see this incredibly nuanced and complicated issue differently than you.

    And yes, people do root for teams no matter “what 53 losers they put out there”. Ask a Lion fan. Or a Saint fan (prior to Sean Payton). Or any of us that were in the ‘Dome during the ’90s. I can’t (and won’t) speak for Chuck, but you’re god damn right I’ll root for the ‘Hawks “no matter what”. Doesn’t mean I won’t be critical, but I’m a fan for life. Come players. Come owners. Come stadiums. Matters not. Call me provincial or whatever you want but I’ll be a 12th fan forever. Period.

  27. Dukeshire says:

    but *there* is …

  28. chuck_easton says:


    I’m not a lemming I’m just a 47 year old who has been a fan of the Seartle Seahawks for 36 years. I don’t just root for them when they are winning. I was still a fan and paid my hard earned money in the years when they were 2-14 as I did in 2005 when they had their best year.

    I’ve seen talented players come and go. I watched Zorn and Largent live and in person. I remember being at a pre season game in the Kingdome and watching this rookie QB wearing a #17 jersey light up the field and say to my sister that Kreig guy is going to be somebody I hope he makes the team.

    Not a lemming by any means but I’m old enough to know that any player no matter how good will eventually be gone but the game and the Seahawks will still be here and I will still pay my hard earned money to watch them.

    These players out there today will be gone soon and a new batch will be playing.

    If it’s all about the players and not the uniform I challenge you to name the 5 starting linemen that won the superbowl for GB last year. Bet you can’t without looking it up. But I also bet you do remember which uniforms won the game. I bet you also remember the name of the team and the uniforms of the other guys that lost the game. I also bet you couldn’t name more than 10 of the 106 players that were wearing those uniforms just 3 months ago.

    Name the starting DBs for the Seahawks in the 2005 superbowl

  29. chuck_easton says:

    So Natedogg to answer your question in a more sustinct manner I would still root for the Seahawks this season if the team fired every player currently on the roster. I’d root for the team if they hired you to be the QB no matter how much of a loser you may be and no matter how fat your ass may be.

  30. GeorgiaHawk says:

    I think most of us on this blog have been rooting for this team,(the last three years), despite having some of the worst talent in Seahawk history.
    I root for both team and the players. Team comes first, players second.

    I think there has been more NFL football players in this world then Billionaires, Which,(imo), would make the Billionaires more unique then the players, and it explains why we aren’t seeing those trained chimps coming out of the woods to own a team.
    I do wish that there were Billionaires coming out to try and compete with the NFL.
    I don’t like monopolies.

  31. I actually would like to try it Blocis’ way. If the NFL destroys itself, then so be it.

  32. Dukeshire says:

    Fortunately however, it will not be happening.

  33. If SEA (and other) players hold their own minicamp – where are they gonna practice? Is that where the cow pasture references came from?

  34. Wow!

    Did somebody really just call me an idiot? Really?


  35. GeorgiaHawk says:

    The cow pastures are just something from my own experience as a kid, however I know some folks in Republic Washington that would be more than happy to let the players use their cow pastures to practice on.

    I’ve been called an idiot before for just being a Seahawks fan. Oh well, if I am going to be an idiot for something then I choose it to be a Seahawks fan.

  36. Shoot yeah! If I was a farmer near SEA with a 10-acre field of hay that’s been harvested recently I’d let them practice there. Probably would put up bleechers and sell tixs. (If you build it they will come!)

  37. Dukeshire says:

    We had horses growing up and I remember when I was in little league and we had such a hard time getting practice time up at Hartman Park, my dad finally put up a chain link back-stop and used the grader to make a diamond for us in the pasture. Some of the hops out there were a bit dicey when we’d take infield, lol, but it was awesome having our own field. I wish my parents still had that land, because if they did, you’d better believe I’d be out there right now working on giving the boys a place to practice. lol.

  38. At least horse nuggets are smaller than cow pies. . .

  39. GeorgiaHawk says:

    I made the comment earlier that there are less billionaires than NFL players, however I hadn’t looked it up,( as I have a habit of doing or not doing sometimes), so I finally got around to it. Lucky for me I was right. lol.

  40. GeorgiaHawk says:

    There are around 65 billionaires alone in Moscow Russia,(most in any city of the world), so that would be enough owners for two more leagues.
    Now if they could just take an interest in football like they have with basketball.

    There’s got to be a few more billionaires from the 1000 or so in the world that would be interested in having a pro football team.

    If the lockout continues well into the season I,m sure people like Trump and/or Cuban will be stirring things up with such talk, if for only to keep their names in the headlines.

  41. williambryan says:

    I have some respect for blocis and those that would support the seahawks no matter what happens, but it is hard for me to have that blind love of the team. I value myself and I won’t give part of myself to something that I dont think deserves it. However the Seahawks have not done much to make me not like them so I am still a fan. I love what Paul Allen has done for the team by bringing in Holmgren and now Carroll. However “If” Paul Allen started to make decisions that were absurd and signaled he didnt care about the fans or winning (like so many baseball teams that routinely spend less than 30 million on payroll and routinely have no chance at winning) I couldn’t continue to support that. Under this scenario, if Allen sold the team and the new owner started to make good decisions, I would definitely root for my team again. However, I do care about the players. I remember at least 51 of the 53 players from the super bowl team (lol). For example, in basketball my favorite player was Alonzo Mourning. When he was with Charlotte, I had a charlotte 33 jersey. When he went to Miami, I got a 33 heat jersey. When he went to New Jersey, yep, I got a 33 nets jersey. And when he went back to the heat, I wore my Miami jersey again. Life is about relationships I believe, and I think sports are the same. We all have a relationship with our teams (some of these are abusive relationships lol) And I value that, but I also Really value the “relationships” with individual players.
    I love what happened with the Portland Trail Blazers (another basketball example, sorry…) They were in the conference finals and selling out around 2000. but then they became known as the jail blazers, justly, and people stopped coming and stopped buying tickets and jerseys, etc. Thankfully the blazers cleaned up there act and now people are buying what they’re selling again. Thats the way it should be. I refuse to be a slave to the whims of some billionaire who really doesnt care about me. If they treat me right, I will pay to see my team. If not, I will follow the players I love from my couch and not give the team owners anything.

  42. Dukeshire says:

    williambryan – Your scenario about an owner making “…decisions that were absurd and signaled he didnt care about the fans or winning.” is precisely what is was like to be a Seahawk fan while Ken Behring owned the team. It was incredibly difficult to be a fan during that period. It was a desperate and hopeless time, but there are some of us who did not waiver in our support for the ‘Hawks. That isn’t to be confused with acceptance or not being loudly critical with whatever platforms we had available to us. He was a son-of-a-bitch and I hate him to this day. However, the Seahawks are Seattle’s team (the NW in general really) and regardless if the Nordstrom’s or Behring or Allen owen the team, they are my (our) team. It extends beyond ownership or the players and more closely resembles a shared experience celebrated within a community and pulls people together. It’s very tribal in that regard; us against the world. This is why when a team moves it rips the heart out of a community. The whole (emotional investment) is so much greater that the sum of it’s parts (owners and players), IMO.

  43. williambryan says:

    Duke, I knew the Behring thing would come up. I was not a football fan during those years (I was born in 85 and didn’t get hardcore into following football untill 99 when I started playing high school ball) I see what your saying about the tribal experience and I get it and I would love for it to be that way. I wish we could own a share of the Hawks like the packers fans get to do. But I see the team as a business. Not that he would but Paul Allen could literally move the team to wherever he wants (assuming he met whatever legal stipulations to do so). As Seahawks fans we are at the mercy of Paul Allens whims. Luckily for us (me) Allen has done great things for us and given us all many reasons to be hopeful and love our team. But I guess basically what I’m saying is I’m only going to be loyal to the hawks as long as they are loyal to me. I dont think that makes me any less of a fan than anyone else. I imagine if I was a fan during the “Behring years” I would have still been a fan of the team, wishing, praying for something good to happen but i wouldn’t pay to go to the games. I would sign petitions or picket or otherwise exhaust our options to get the team right, but i’m not going to be a part of lining the pockets of a greedy jerk. Right now, I have no problems lining Paul Allens pockets :) I love what this team has done (for the most part) Since I have been a fan.

  44. natedog says:

    I am sorry for calling you an idiot Blocis, I shouldn’t have taken it to a personal level. I just really have a problem with the opinion you expressed. I think that it is myopic and idiotic. Does anyone else on here really think that players are just “lucky” to play in the NFL and should be happy with whatever the owners, who would collude to some degree in this scenario, are willing to pay them without collective bargaining???? Opinions are like a*(holes I guess.

    Chuck, I don’t think that you understood my point. Or maybe you did if you are serious about supporting the team if they had my “fat ass”, my ass is not fat by the way, at quarterback and you were not just exaggerating. My point is that the reason we watch the NFL is that they maintain a level of play. They do things that the average person cannot do on a football field. It’s the reason you don’t pay hundreds of dollars to watch a high school football game. You get the point? I didn’t mean you jump ship when your team is bad. The first season I started liking the Seahawks was 1992. That should tell you if I am a fair weather fan or not. If people just enjoyed watching sports and the level of play made no difference then why is the YMCA not packed with paying spectators for their pick up basketball games? Because most of us want to see something we can’t do! Maybe your the one in a million that will just support a team because you have some need to be a part of something no matter what like someone in the Hitler Youth? And the 2005 super bowl DB’s were Trufant, Marquand Manuel, probably spelled his first name wrong, Boulware, and that one bum named Herndon that was playing for the injured Andre Dyson. That’s off the top of my head.

    Georgia, my point was not about players versus team. I root for both but the team takes precedence. My point is that there would be no NFL if there was not a minimum standard of play that was far above what average joes could do. And yes there have been more NFL players than billionaires but, nobody wants to pay to watch a billionaire do his job. And guess what? There would probably be 0 billionaires in the world right now if our tax money had not bailed out the financial system in 2008!

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