Letters to the Editor

Your views in 200 words or less

ELECTION: Give Romney four years to right economic ship

Letter by Lyle Laws, Puyallup on Sep. 7, 2012 at 3:00 pm with 242 Comments »
September 7, 2012 3:00 pm

More than at any time that I can recall, the American economy is suffering from a crisis of confidence in our leadership. Although much of the blame may not rightfully be attributed to failures of the Obama administration, poll after poll has revealed that the great majority of the people feel that our country is headed in the wrong direction.

Mitt Romney might not have the solution to the problem, but it is clear that President Obama doesn’t, and we don’t need four more years of “I Hope It Will Change” leadership.

America should give Romney a chance to right the economic ship; if he can’t, we can send him packing after four years and let someone else try. But it is clearly time for a change.

Leave a comment Comments → 242
  1. Frankenchrist says:

    So? The great majority of people believed that Saddam had WMD’s and was responsible for 9/11.

    Republicans lie and Americans die. Or lose their life savings.

  2. LeePHilI says:

    Lyle – If Obama is so bad at improving the economy, why did the stock market just hit a record high yesterday?

    Rather than take a chance on Romney, I’d just as soon vote for the guy that has already taken steps in the right direction and the one who has REAL foreign affairs responsibility.

    We can’t afford another Iraq War because a Republican is trying to “make his bones”.

  3. Frankenchrist says:

    We’ve already seen what can happen when we elect one Republican draft-dodger: they lie to the American people and start unprovoked wars. Then in true Republican style, they completely screw them up.

    Let’s not elect another privileged chickenhawk GOPer.

    Share this with all your buddies:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/09/07/how-mitt-dodged-the-draft/print

    Mittens the Chickenhearted ran away to avoid Vietnam and then he had the gall to hide his money in Switzerland and the Cayman Islands while he was firing American workers and sending their jobs to China.

    Romney is downright un-American.

  4. “we don’t need four more years of “I Hope It Will Change” leadership.”

    So I presume that you voted against Bush in 2004, because at this same point in his administration, we’d lost over a million jobs, and it took MORE THAN FIVE YEARS for the economy to fully recover from the fairly mild 2001 recession.

  5. Poll after poll also shows that it is the do-nothing Republican House that has kept us in this mess too long.

    When Romney can explain how giving more tax cuts to the rich, increasing taxes for the middle class, adding huge deficits to our economy by not cutting the military and moving Medicare to a voucher program (he says benefits will stay the same, so we have to account somehow for the 20%-30% increase in administrative costs that insurance companies charge), adding wars with Iran and verbal wars with Russia will help us instead of hurt us – and doing so without using the myths and factless statements he is fond of, then people might consider him a leader.

  6. menopaws says:

    Sorry, Lyle—This President hasn’t been perfect…..but, one thing most Americans do believe is that he has tried very hard to get things moving……..With NO help or cooperation from the other party. Our family is doing better with our 401K and other investments than we were when Bush was in power—even before the meltdown……
    No more American blood or treasure on unnecessary war—it is time to invest in America…..I believe Obama will give it his heart and soul. Mr. Romney has his money parked in overseas banks—that tells me how much faith he has in America.
    We are done with all the nasty innuendo and accusations….The Congress elected in 2010 had a HUGE opportunity to show their stuff………Instead, they got our credit downgraded and spent days trying to defund Big Bird and Sesame Street……Seriously??? Obstruction is not governing……..Romney embraces that crowd—I don’t and won’t.

  7. LeePHilI says:

    Good point, menopaws. I forgot to ask Lyle what the Republicans in Congress have done to HELP the President get our county back to economic stability.

    From 2001 to 2009, there was a steady rise in unemployment – a 185% gain. During the majority of that time, the Republicans controlled the House, Administration and Senate. Obama took over in February of 2009, with everything in a mess. Since then unemployment has stablized, which will help the economy because when employment is in a freefall as it was from 2001 to 2009, no one is making major purchases (not to mention credit goes down the toilet).

    As the President said, the Republicans answer to everything is a tax cut and deregulation.

  8. lylelaws says:

    Frankie, Lee, ehill, meno and tuddo,

    I am so glad that all of you children agree with me.

    By the way, Frankie, did you serve in the U.S. military during time of war? When and where?

  9. sandblower says:

    Lyle, the first rule to becoming informed is to pay attention. You must have been hiding when the easy to understand info was presented by the President last night and by many others these past months. Mr. Krugman’s proposed plan would have gotten us on a better track long ago. I do not fault only the extreme right wing, because there are still some Democrats who do not understand how monetary policy works. That does not excuse you.

  10. sandblower says:

    Here we go with the war service thing again, which has meaningless application in most cases.

  11. LeePHilI says:

    Lyle – as usual, you have deflected the issue with insults and questioning someone’s military service.

    If Franken didn’t serve in the military, does that change the point that Romney didn’t and yet he seems perfectly willing to start another war? Of course it doesn’t.

    I haven’t served in the military, but that doesn’t cloud my ability to see dumb foreign policy. I was against the Iraq War from the day that “mushroom cloud” started being a talking point and based on what happened, I’m a damned military genius when it comes to the subject of Iraq.

    Possibly those of us that didn’t get the khaki brain washing are able to stand back and look at war and say “can we afford this?”. If there is anything that would further gut the US economy, it would be a war with a oil producing nation. Unless Romney and his Republicans minions are willing to raise taxes to pay for their playground (where their sons and daughters will never go), they might want to admit that not only is their idea of war stupid, but we don’t have the money to play in that poker game.

  12. lylelaws says:

    LeePhill, I only asked Frankie about his military record because he accused Romney of being a draft dodger.

    I already knew that you hadn’t served.

  13. SwordofPerseus says:

    No one who cares about the future of America would even consider voting for Mitt (hides his money) Romney. No surprise Lyle is on the wrong side of the isle.

  14. LeePHilI says:

    lyle – military service is not a requirement to American citizenship. I think you’d prefer something more like Nazi Germany.

    Regardless of who served in the military, for Mitt Romney to pretend that he knows something about military issues and foreign affairs is a game we just can’t afford.

    Interesting how the last president who took us to war, allegedly served in the military (although his paperwork disappeared) and the result was two wars that gutted our economy and didn’t do much for the heart and soul of the country either. So much for the value of experience, huh?

    I prefer a guy with a steady hand who has nothing to prove to anyone because, due to the color of his skin, he’s already been called every name possible. His decisions for military action are based on the input of military experts and leaders, not the emotional crappola that goes with trying to show everyone you’re a tough guy.

  15. Fibonacci says:

    lylelaws
    Ah, another Friday post by good old Lyle. I have missed them.

    Lyle, I proudly did not serve. That does not mean that I don’t have respect for those who do, it just means that I don’t think those who served are any better than those who did not. To repeat, Frankenchrist accused Mitt the Twit of being a draft dodger. That does not mean that EVERYONE who has not served is one, just MItt.

    Lyle–here is easy math for you
    Bush, lower taxes = less income.
    Bush, start two wars = increased spending
    Therefore, hurting economy. I can’t help wondering what the national debt would be if tax rates were the same as under Clinton AND we did not have to pay for Iraq and Afghanistan. Seems to me those two items would cancel out the debt (by the way Lyle, those two can’a be chalked up to Obama).

  16. Lyle,
    The only lack of confidence I have in leadership is with the Republican members of congress who rolled the dice that if they could spend the first four years of Obama’s administration doing nothing but obstructing, they then could win back the presidency in 2012. It is back firing on them…the American people aren’t that dumb and the Republicans aren’t that smart.

  17. CrazyJim says:

    I’m going to pass on the Romney thingy! His details are sketchy at best and the chicken hawk thing just doesn’t set well with me. And hundreds of millions of dollars stuffed into a Cayman account doesn’t build a highway in Tacoma…….you know…….just for starters.

  18. LeePHilI says:

    Lyle – just out of curiousity….

    You submit these letters because you enjoy the interchange of dialog. I can appreciate that.

    Since the first response to your letter, all you’ve done with your comments is deliver snarky jabs at people making the comments. Is this what you are trying to do or did you want dialog on the issues of the subject at hand?

    I can fling poo with the best/worst of them, but….just once in awhile, can we discuss the issues? I think you’ve been given some interesting subject matter to respond to….pick one.

  19. 100+ games of golf is working hard? Campaigning for 25+% of your time in office is working hard? For whom?

    Tuds- poll after poll? How about facts? People have bought BHOs propaganda stating that republicans have (insert excuse).

    When he had a chance to change the tax structure according to whatever principles he follows he did not. He wasted time and delayed the recovery by adding massive, expensive regulations America does not want.

  20. lylelaws says:

    LeePhill,

    If you think that Nazi Germany represented what I would stand for, maybe you might wonder why four members of my family of nine served in the U.S. Military during WWII to defeat Hitler and his allies.

    My dad was awarded a Purple Heart, for his service in WWI, and I served during the Korean War, so six of us were willing to protect your right to try to slime us, but that’s OK because I believe in freedom of speech.

  21. LeePHilI says:

    Barack Obama has served as President of the United States for almost 200 weeks.

    Why can’t someone go golfing every other week? The last time I knew, this was AMERICA – land of FREEDOM.

    “campaigning 25% of your time in office” – why not just say “100%” and get it over with? As long as you’re going to make up a lie, you might was well make it a really big one.

    CT – we are attempting to have an adult converation on the issues here. If you can’t contribute, why don’t you go elsewhere?

    I don’t think I speak for myself when I say that after this week’s incredible speeches, the adults in the room are in the mood for real discussion and not baseless assertions and faux, manufactured crap.

    Try Facebook. It would be perfect for your style.

    http://www.humanevents.com/2012/09/05/no-facebook-bump-for-obamas/

  22. LeePHilI says:

    lyle….your need for mandatory military service is only surpassed by your inability to comprehend the conversation.

    No one is sliming anyone, aside from you trying to make everything a personal issue.

    Nazi Germany made service to county mandatory. You assert that no one has a right to an opinion or analysis without having served. If you can’t see the similarity, Lyle, I can’t help you.

    If you need to attempt to impress us with your service or your family’s service, you were in the military for all the wrong reasons.

    Now, Lyle…anytime you are finished with your drama, we can return to discussing the value of Mitt Romney to the American people, which you can’t seem to support.

  23. lylelaws says:

    Fibonacci,

    I don’t have a problem with people who don’t choose to serve in the armed forces now that we no longer draft people, but I have to wonder why you would say, “I proudly did not serve.”

  24. took14theteam says:

    What I find interesting is that all the lefties here are crowing about how their Investments have rebounded during the Obama regime………They are happy about that…………..Yet the lefties are the main supporters of the OCCUPY WALL STREET movement………….Wasn’t that the MOVEMENT that they wanted to destroy Wall Street?……..Which would mean that their…..RETIREMENT…..would be gone?

    Hmmmm

  25. took14theteam says:

    anytime you are finished with your drama

    Pot Kettle ehill thingy inserted here……

    LMFAO

  26. took14theteam says:

    Have you not received the memo?……THERE IS NO DISCUSSION WITH YOU……You assume YOU are GOD, REMEMBER?

  27. alindasue says:

    CT8 said, “100+ games of golf is working hard?”

    Some people go to the gym for a few hours every day before or after work. That’s 200+ times per year. Some people go jogging daily or play tennis. That doesn’t mean that they work at their jobs any less.

    President Obama plays basketball and golf. A golf game takes 2-4 hours out of a day, or about the time many people spend at the gym in a day. Also, the thing about golf is that a good deal of actual work can occur during the game as many diplomatic and political conversations or business negotiations go on during those 18 holes.

    President Bush went horseback riding. Mitt Romney goes boating. Everybody needs their diversions. As long as work is also getting done each day, what does it matter how many times they participate in them.

  28. Incredible? How they failed to lay out a plan? Explain why his jobs counsel has been ignored? Why there are 500,000 less manufacturing jobs in America today vs his election? Why he keeps attacking success?

    Trying to tell us he I working hard just does not fly.

    Same guy who ignore substance with every post, deflects and shifts, is trying to tell anyone to stay on topic?

    Just because you do not like the facts does not make them go away.

    $5+tril later and less jobs. Terrible.

  29. Alindasue, is the work getting done? If so, why is he calling himself incomplete?

    Why has he, the leader of our govt, not followed through on 4 year old promises?

  30. CT8, You actually believe this president isn’t working hard because he frequently plays golf?…good grief.

    Here’s what I believe: The job of president is dang hard…I gather this from the way these guys go gray almost as soon as they get into the office. It is a 24/7 job; never ever totally free to decompress or take a real vacation. I would rather have a fit president than one who is unfit for obvious reasons…soooo….I don’t give a rat’s behind if they golf, shoot baskets, run, swim, or get a rigorous physical work-out several times a day with the first lady or with(fill in the blank). Some presidents take more vacation days than others and go to bed early…are they lazy? Just because G W Bush took far more vacation days in his first 4 years than either his father, Carter, Obama, and Clinton, are you saying he was just lazy? Something tells me you just like to single out Obama’s golf because it’s what you hear from Rush and others of his persuasion…(sigh). The utter nonsense spewed about Obama is an insult to the intelligence of the American people.

  31. took14theteam,
    1. You seem to be talking to youself on these posts…are you okay?
    2. My personal portfolio is doing great…and I don’t say that to brag. I say it becasue I’m incredibly relieved. It tanked when “he who shall not be named” held office. It tanked so bad I thought I would have to come out of retirement. It has rebounded way beyond what was predicted…and, I thank Obama for inching us up on a slow but steady aimline. Those of you who expected a quick 4 year fix to a hole that took a much longer time to dig are being more than unrealistic…you are being distracted by the shiny object which promises you something but has no history of delivering. That’s just not good financial planning.
    3. Why on earth would we want to revisit the failed economic plan that drove this country to its knees and almost bankrupt? That is the H W Bush/G W Bush/Romney/GOP plan…they used it, and it failed over and over and all of us paid the price.
    4. The Wall Street occupation has nothing to do with me and my vote for Obama. It has nothing to do with my portfolio and I have no clue why you assume that it does. It’s like me saying that you endorse the Westboro Church becasue they are conservatives. It would be a lie, so please don’t lie about me and people with whom you disagree.

  32. LeePHilI says:

    “CT8 says:
    Sep. 7, 2012 at 6:52 pm Alindasue, is the work getting done? If so, why is he calling himself incomplete?”

    It’s called humility. Try it. Personally, I’d give him a B+ just for tolerating the John Birch Wannabes like you.

    If he graded himself with a D-, you’d argue that he was thinking he was too good.

    CT….you’d better really crank up the baseless assertion machine. Obama just got a 7 point bump in polls and is leading in all the swing states. Do you think your baseless assertions will be tipping point in the election? Do you think the same silly complaints and false stories will work this time, when they failed so much in 2008?

  33. LeePHilI says:

    rudy – Took14 swore off talking to me online. You see how long THAT lasted.

    I could only wish….

    What I have enjoyed the most about the past 24 hours is listening to the Conservatives howl out all of the “promises” that Obama never made, but they now claim he made (in their regular form of misquoting Obama).

    Karl Rove actually tried the whiteboard/magic marker routine on Greta’s post-convention show. It was a riot.

  34. took14theteam says:

    Not talking to you DB, just listing your baseless inflaming comments for others to see what a, I’ll say it again, DB you are.

    Now go find a gig for that Martini Music you claim to play SO WELL.

  35. took14theteam says:

    So Bush was responsible for the Market crash……and BHO was responsible for the “RISE” again???

    LMFAO

  36. Dave98373 says:

    Heart be still…Lyle has endorsed Romney! You know things are bad for Obama Inc. when even frequent-flyer-writer Lyle Laws supports Romney!

  37. Dave98373 says:

    “Lyle – If Obama is so bad at improving the economy, why did the stock market just hit a record high yesterday?”
    One days stock performance is now a measurement for success for Obama in your world? So…you are comparing four years of misery with Obama to the numbers of one days stock market’s figures? Really?? MOST educated people realize that the stock market has very little to do with day to day politics.
    Wise up LPH!

  38. LeePHilI says:

    “One days stock performance is now a measurement for success for Obama in your world?”

    Have you been in a cave since January 2009? Allow me, Dave….

    The market was at 8000 in January of 2009.

    DURING THE PAST 4 YEARS it has increased to the point where it closed today at 13,292.

    Your attempt to hang the economy on Obama, but say that the success of the stock market has nothing to do with it, is THE MOST RIDICULOUS thing I’ve read on this forum and you have to understand that CT gives me lost of material to rank.

    “four years of misery”….. Are you a Republican speech writer????

  39. LeePHilI says:

    Rudy….talk to Dave…..

  40. SandHills says:

    “Slick Willie” Clinton said it best – The previous occupant of the WH left a big mess (debt/economy/unemployment), and the GOP’s main complaint is that Obama is not cleaning up that mess fast enough, so elect Romney wanting to use the same failed policies as Bush.

  41. Dave98373 says:

    “four years of misery”….. Are you a Republican speech writer????”
    No I am not. But clearly you are blinded by your own political biases to see or think straight. I am the mighty INDEPENDANT vote who wisely listens to both sides and then makes an informed and educated decision based on intellect, not personal bias. I am neither Republican nor Democrat. I am a little of both. Because wise people who see the good and the bad of both parties vote accordingly. Obama will lose this election not because he has not convinced you (…he clearly has…)…he will lose this election because he has not embraced the INDEPENDANT vote. Neither Romney nor Obama can win this election without the independant vote.

  42. Dave98373,
    Using layman’s terms could you please explain Romney’s economic plan. I’m willing to listen and it seems you’re a supporter of his so you would know.

  43. Dave98373 says:

    “Dave98373,
    Using layman’s terms could you please explain Romney’s economic plan. I’m willing to listen and it seems you’re a supporter of his so you would know”

    Using layman’s terms? For this blog? No. I will say that I am not a big supporter of Romney. However, I am highly critical of Obama’s policies. I do not feel that Obama has lived up to his promises and has failed this country miserably. If you can separate your own biased poltiical views from an open and honest discussion….really….why should one vote for Obama?

  44. “all of you children”

    When you can’t refute the message, attack the messenger.

  45. ” He wasted time and delayed the recovery by adding massive, expensive regulations America does not want.”

    Oh, what specific regulations were those? And how do you know that the American people didn’t want them?

  46. “One days stock performance is now a measurement for success for Obama in your world?”

    The stock market has doubled it value since 2008.

  47. Dave98373 says:

    “The stock market has doubled it value since 2008.”

    …And Obama is taking credit for that?…Do you know how the stock market truly operates? It has absolutely nothing to do with White House politics and more to do with global market benchmarks (and manipulations). Wall Street has always historically operated counter to U.S. policy…even during the Real Great Depression, when government (under the Roosevelt monarchy) attempted to control it.

  48. Dave98373 says:

    “Rudy….talk to Dave…..”
    LeePHill–You and rudy1 are the same person. Find another name to post under. TNT—please moderate.

  49. Dave98373 Thank you for responding. I just can’t buy anymore empty anti-Obama rhetoric and that’s all you have offered. An uniformed and easily manipulated electoriate seems to be the mess we are currently in…both sides. If people want to actually discuss the specifics, then I’ll listen. However, we are talking about the economic health of this country and I don’t take that lightly; I can’t as I live on a fixed income due to retirement and I don’t want my life savings to go down the drain again. So, if someone is going to claim that Romney has a better plan simply because he is not Obama, they’d better have some proof…and, it had better not be the very same plan that helped wipe out millions of peoples’s savings before Obama ever took office. Like I posted earlier, my personal investment portfolio has not only recovered but has surpassed expectations…thanks to slow and steady wins the race.

    I don’t appreciate it when someone tells me I’m biased and then turns around and pretends they are not. It is disingenuous. And, it almost never produces any “open and honest” productive discourse which you claim to want.

    By the way, while I waited for your reponse I googled Romney’s economic plan…it can be summed up quite easily. You might want to spend a few minutes researching and find out its pros and cons.

  50. Dave98373 –
    LeePHill–You and rudy1 are the same person. Find another name to post under. TNT—please moderate.

    Man, are you kidding? grow up…lol…I take full credit for all of my own posts.

  51. aislander says:

    Nice work, lyle: the loons are crying and e***l has broken out the macros…

  52. Rudy, what is the difference between Bush’s economic strategy and BHOs? Both were/are keynesian. Stimulus after stimulus. Debt on more debt. Expanded central power. Tax rates the same with more temporary breaks thrown in fr business and individuals.

    Yeah, you live the ‘workers paradise’ rhetoric, and he did funnel billions to the unions. But local blue collar jobs have been crushed. Manufacturing down, govt down (because cities are broke).

    So, aside from a transfer of wealth from the taxpayer to a selective industry (actually needs to be plural, can’t forget the failed ‘green’ investments) what has he done different from Bush?

    Do the excuses bother you after four years? Do you acknowledge the huge advantage he had in 09 with a dem congress to ram whatever he want through, yet fell short of his own goals?!

    Yes, the golf and vacations are important. His wife flying on another plane to squeeze an extra day of vacation in is important. It shows a mentality. Same for the golf. Don’t play off like life is so hard, you have the weight of the world, and then play hundreds of rounds of golf. If anything it is bad messaging.

    Instead of fundraising/golf, he should have been working to the millions of Americans that just fell off the rolls back to work.

  53. The rich business, racist, anti- any this and that diagnosis
    community will gain a few members. The poor will gain many, many
    more.

  54. CT8, I’ll ask you the same thing as I asked Dave98373 who was unable to explain one single thing (see above). Without mentioning Obama even once, please explain Romney’s economic plan that he guarantees will fix our economy in 4 years. I’ll listen as long as someone actually knows what it is.

  55. MyBandito says:

    Obama is on the right track. The Republicans have provided nothing but obstruction from day one and then they blame Obama for not making more progress.

    Tell the Republicans to get out of the way. They’ve done enough to mess things up.

    I’ll gladly vote for Obama again. My vote will count.

  56. RegisteringFool says:

    Gosh, they’re at it again.

    I’m going to vote for my guy because…well, because he isn’t your guy. Your guy is a jerk anyway. You guys are all wasting your votes.

    A vote for either of the two front-runners is a vote to continue failed monetary policies, policies that are at the core of America’s (and by extension, the world’s) economic woes. It is also a vote to continue a disastrous military policy that has earned America more enemies than friends.

    END THE FED AND BRING THE TROOPS HOME!

    (Disclosure: While I still like Ron Paul, I will NOT be writing his name in on my ballot, as some have threatened to do.)

  57. menopaws says:

    Hey, the righties are getting SHRILL…………LIfe is good….the Democrats had a convention that shows WHO America is……Clinton and Obama both gave speeches that had more viewers than the Republican mess in Tampa……..the market is good, CT8 is chewing tums and whining about golf and doing his usual racist slams……….Lyle is pulling out the purple hearts……..
    The reality is that the expensive suits and the expensive nasty ad campaigns arent’t doing the job……whine away—It won’t help………

  58. LeePHilI says:

    “CT8 says:
    Sep. 7, 2012 at 10:42 pm Rudy, what is the difference between Bush’s economic strategy and BHOs? Both were/are keynesian.”

    The “Saul Alinksky” word of the day. LOL

    No one knew who Alinsky was prior to the Reicht Wing Sound machine cooking him up to tag Obama. Now it is “keynesian” Let’s dig a little deeper…..OK?

    “aggregate demand created by households, businesses and the government and not the dynamics of free markets is the most important driving force in an economy.”

    Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/Keynesian-economics.html#ixzz25szZDlIp

    Well now boys and girls…..tell me…. if there is no demand in the marketplace, what “free market” do you have?

    Rudy….FYI – when they have nothing to discuss, they’ll usually move to the “you’re so and so”

  59. LeePHilI says:

    “Dave98373 says:
    Sep. 7, 2012 at 9:48 pm “The stock market has doubled it value since 2008.”
    …And Obama is taking credit for that?…Do you know how the stock market truly operates? It has absolutely nothing to do with White House politics and more to do with global market benchmarks (and manipulations).”

    Well, then….If the White House has no influence to the economy/stock market, let’s quit blaming Obama for the economy.

  60. LeePHilI says:

    “No I am not. But clearly you are blinded by your own political biases to see or think straight. I am the mighty INDEPENDANT vote who wisely listens to both sides and then makes an informed and educated decision based on intellect, not personal bias.”

    Yeah…I can read your independence with each work and slur you utter about the President.

    I find it humerous that “Independents” can always seem to lean to the right and find something with the Republican candidate that makes him/her less wrong that a Democratic incumbant. From the Democrat they want perfection, but the Republican is a falible human being.

    So centered….

    Tell us, Dave….precisely…..which “promises” Obama didn’t fulfill. Now, you don’t get to make up the promises, nor use the Karl Rove versions of them. You have to cite the “promise” and then show how Obama SOLELY didn’t fulfill said promise.

    Come on…be INDEPENDENT.

  61. Quite a few on this forum seem to credit the Obama administration for “saving” their 401Ks and IRAs. If that is so, why hasn’t similar investing whizardry been applied to OASI (Old Age and Survivor Insurance) and DI (Disability Insurance) Trust Funds? Is the Obama administration the financial planner behind your 401K or IRA? Of course not….private financial firms are.

    Social Security and Disability Insurance payouts exceeded FICA tax revenues for the first time in 2010 and are forecast to continue to do so indefinitely if something is not done to correct the imbalance. According to the CBO, the DI trust fund zeroes out in 2017 and the OASI trust fund goes broke in 2038. This is just another excellent example of government financial stewardship not to mention the idiocy of continuing the practice of government borrowing the tax revenues that are specifically earmarked by law to provide future benefits.

    In 2011 The OASI and DI disbursed $733 billion on tax revenues of $687.
    Meanwhile the roughly $5 trillion dollar trust fund was earning 1.4% interest after subtracting a reported 3% inflation rate. Just how big a recovery would your 401K or IRA have made based on investment skills like that? It is about time that we entrust our nation’s financial future to someone who knows a bit about finance. Both Presidents Bush and Obama fail econ 101. We should do better.

  62. LeePHilI says:

    Well, oldoc has created a wonderful breakfast of fruit salad by mixing apples and oranges.

    The only issue that brings “Obama” into the value of 401Ks etc is the continued blaming of “Obama” for the economy.

    Oh…and if you don’t have enough revenue to pay the bills on Social Security, lift the cap for those enjoying incomes over $250,000 a year. The additional 3% will be meaningless to their mode of living, but it will fund the program indefinitely.

    There are easy solutions to problems that conservatives love to use smoke and mirrors on.

  63. TheSlag says:

    During republican regimes, moneys get funneled upwards due to lose regulations, lack of enforcement and tax policies. Bush ‘fortunately’ had plenty to squander for 7 years from a surplus he inherited. If now, in this fragile state, we let wealth accumulate in more unbalanced and perverted ways, you can say goodbye to American prosperity and the middle class, never mind the poor or homeless veterans. The financial industries squeezed every last drop out of the housing market for their own gain. Imagine the same scenario with social security, health care money and school funds. And then add to that the likely potential of yet another war (Iran according to Willard’s wishes) and the military-industrial with their mercenary blackwater brethrens will be feeding at the public money trough some more. People think it’s bad now? The republicans are never done engorging themselves perverting the system.

  64. LeePHill wrote: Well, oldoc has created a wonderful breakfast of fruit salad by mixing apples and oranges.

    The only issue that brings “Obama” into the value of 401Ks etc is the continued blaming of “Obama” for the economy.

    Oh…and if you don’t have enough revenue to pay the bills on Social Security, lift the cap for those enjoying incomes over $250,000 a year. The additional 3% will be meaningless to their mode of living, but it will fund the program indefinitely.

    There are easy solutions to problems that conservatives love to use smoke and mirrors on.
    ________________________________________________________

    The comparison of government stewardship of Social Security/Disability Trust Funds to the financial returns achievable through private equity investing is real but undoubtedly way beyond the scope of LeeP’s economic understanding. Maybe it might be an apples and oranges comparison but the difference in returns is quite stark….even to someone like LeeP who continues to argue with a quiver filled with talking point economic solutions.

    I did not bring Obama into the conversation. Your fellow travelers used 401K bounce backs as the crutch to support the Obama administration’s economic stewardship. So if that is all you have to counter claims of a slooooow recovering economy, it isn’t working.

    LeeP, your answer to every economic problem is more taxes on the rich but even Obama recognizes the need to cut spending. You should know by now that you could take every dollar annually earned by the rich cannot cover the revenue shortfall continually run up by the Federal deficit and National Debt. If the interest rates were not being artifically controlled, we would already be in the process of crumbling.

    That 3% that you maintain will solve the problem indefinitely? Hogwash. The government must first balance its own books before Social Security/Disability Insurance has any hope of long term survival. Explain to us how you think an individual program, among the thousands within our system, can survive when the government backing such programs goes further and further into debt?

    Even the President, at whose shrine you daily worship, has said that there are no easy solutions to the problems we face. Perhaps you had better to listen to him rather than continue to portray yourself as someone who has an understanding of the magnituded of the nation’s problems.

    You have certainly been bamboozled by the smoke and mirrors but it is not those of us with financially conservative views that are doing the juggling.

    Hope you enjoyed the breakfast……sorry it was meat and potatoes.

  65. BigSwingingRichard says:

    I Believe in Hope and Change:

    I Hope Obama is a one term president and I believe Mitt Romney is our best hope to turn around the economy and Change the direction our country is headed.

  66. Why is it, when scrolling through these posts, that I get a recurring picture of egocentril middle-schoolkids lobbing dirt clods back and forth at each other accompanied by puerile epithets? Why don’t you guys just meet up somewhere and duke it out rather than attempting to sound like you know what you’re talking about here.

  67. “Your fellow travelers used 401K bounce backs as the crutch to support the Obama administration’s economic stewardship. So if that is all you have to counter claims of a slooooow recovering economy, it isn’t working.”

    Nobody said it was “all they have”.

    Nice strawman. You seem to have a lot of experience building them.

  68. harleyrider1 says:

    President Obama entered office and enjoyed two full years of his Presidency with full Democratic control of Congress – both houses.

    When a sitting President has control of both houses, he can pass nay legislation he chooses. His own party blocked many of his proposals. Fact check.

    He said he would have a transparent Presidency. He has refused to let cabinet members including the Attorney General of the United States tell the Congress and the people about many of his dealings from Solyndra to Guns across the Border. Fact check

    He told us when a candidate cannot run on their record, they will divert America’s attention by dividing America and running misleading ads. Has he done this? Fact check

    The bottom line is we are out of money and the guy we hired to remodel our home never finished. Now he rings the doorbell and says he’s back and will finish it – but he needs more money. What would you say to your neighbor if he hired this guy back a second time?

    Think with your wallet – not your heart. We gave him a chance. He chose to be on TV every night, fly around with celebrities and got caught up in that lifestyle. He only had one cabinet meeting this entire year – FACT CHECK – yet millions of Americans are out of work.

    Why is there an emergency now, but there wasn’t 6-months or a year ago? What plan will only work if he is re-elected, but not right now while he is President?

  69. Lyle, I sure hope you’re reading these posts…you’re not the only one who has no idea what Romney’s plan is that guarantees to turn around this economy in four years, but at least I give you credit for telling us you personally haven’t a clue. Read the posts from all those who side step the question, throw out smoke screens and yet still believe Romney’s plan just has to be better than Obama’s. And, Romney’s plan could be worse, since none of you know what it actually is(pause a few seconds to let this sink in). If Romney’s plan is worse, then who will you all have to blame?..never mind that the 99% will be totally screwed.

    Lyle, you little devil, you’ve opened up a can of worms. Could it be that all of these posters like BigSwingingRichard, Dave98373, CT8, oldoc, aislander also don’t have a clue what Romney’s plan is? Your letter was a gift sent to reveal the truth:)

  70. harleyrider1
    I’m asking you as well, please tell us without mentioning Obama what Romney’s plan is that guarantees to turn around the economy is 4 years. That should be simple for you to do since you are passionate that he can achieve this goal.

  71. “guarantees”? Enough with that word, makes you seem irrational.

    http://www.mittromney.com/sites/default/files/shared/BelieveInAmerica-PlanForJobsAndEconomicGrowth-Full.pdf

    Increased trade, lower corp tax, increased domestic energy, less regulation.

    Where is BHO’s plan? Since you are crying whenever someone brings up his 4 years of failure, lets talk about the future…

    He still owns the last four years. Enough blame and excuses. They are a key factor in this election. in 2008 you had the not-Bush, a guy with no real past accomplishments. If we get the not-Obama, a guy with real ideas, good for us.

  72. “President Obama entered office and enjoyed two full years of his Presidency with full Democratic control of Congress”

    Fact check.

    1. There were never 60 Democrats in the Senate.
    2. If you include the two independents to the Democrats, then there were only 60 senators for two short periods: Jul 6 – Aug 29, 2009, and Sep 25, 2009 – Feb 4, 2010. That’s 182 days out of “two full years.”
    3. 271 GOP filibusters in the Senate since Obama was sworn in.

    “He has refused to let cabinet members including the Attorney General of the United States tell the Congress and the people about many of his dealings from Solyndra to Guns across the Border”

    Fact check. The Attorney General testified before Congress on nine separate occasions, and turned over thousands of pages of documentation.

    “He only had one cabinet meeting this entire year – FACT CHECK”

    Fact check. He’s had two.

    Looks like your “facts” are really fiction.

  73. “Increased trade, lower corp tax, increased domestic energy, less regulation”

    Just like Bush. What a surprise.

  74. “271 GOP filibusters”

    Correction: that should be 241.

  75. Ehill, I think you have confused BHO with Romney. What has BHO done different from Bush? Cut taxes, stimulus, grew govt (federal).

  76. CT8 says, “If we get the not-Obama, a guy with real ideas, good for us”

    I liked Romney’s Massachusetts ideas, like gay rights, women’s right to choose, universal health care, expanding educational opportunities to the poor. Where did those go?

    Politifact said his educational achievements were due to his support of educational reform legislation andm increased spending previously passed before his term with suport of the teachers’ unions, and as Romney himself said, the big increase in children’s health improvement through universal medical coverage and additional funds to Medicaid for poor children.

    Looks like his good ideas included a huge role for government and increased spending.

    I don’t like his retread of Bush ideas of huge deficit spending on the military, tax cuts for the wealthy and tax increases for the middle class, vague promises of cutting the budget somewhere, and especially not his idea of increasing the deficit by adding 20%-30% more administrative costs to a voucher program that rewards inefficiencies in our health service industry and reduces health services for children through substantial custs in Medicaid.

  77. Vague? What is Obama’s plan?

    And acting at the state level, their rights, is not the same as the federal level.

    If those tax cuts meant more jobs and increased revenue, would you support them?

  78. CT8,
    Wait a second. You don’t like guarantees? You expected Obama to deliver in 4 years…isn’t that a guarantee you expected and are so upset about not receiving? You wouldn’t be one of those hypocrites who want something from one, but not the other, or are you? I take it you don’t expect Romney to fix the economy in 4 years. And, you still can’t make a post about what Romney intends to actually do to make everything better without referring to Obama. Makes me think you just vote emotionally (sigh).

  79. MyBandito says:

    If you don’t like this Romney, give him a moment to shake his etch-a-sketch.

  80. MrCarleone says:

    THE MORMON MAGIC UNDERWEAR will never fail this Nation !

  81. “What has BHO done different from Bush?”

    In one word: better.

    Bush:
    # Americans working 2/01/2001: 132,529,000
    # Americans working 8/31/2004: 131,610,000 a net loss of a million
    DJIA 1/20/2001: 10,646
    DJIA 8/31/2004: 10,173 a net loss of 500 pts

    Obama:
    # Americans working 2/01/2009: 132,837,000
    # Americans working 8/31/2012: 133,300,000 a net gain of half a million
    DJIA 1/20/2009: 8,116.
    DJIA 8/31/2012: 13,124 a net gain of 5,000 pts

  82. Lyle,

    It does not matter if someone served in the Military. Most chicken hawk republicans did not including Reagan, Romney, and all five Romney boys.

    Four years of Romney as POUTS and our economy will be lower that the Titanic.

    “served during Korean War” – not ‘served in Korea’ – or ‘was in Korea’

  83. I wrote: Your fellow travelers used 401K bounce backs as the crutch to support the Obama administration’s economic stewardship. So if that is all you have to counter claims of a slooooow recovering economy, it isn’t working.”
    _____________________________________________________________

    Ehill sagely offers: Nobody said it was “all they have”.
    _____________________________________________________________

    My response is: For a change you are correct, NOBODY said it was “all they have,” including me. _____________________________________________________________

    Ehill smugly added: Nice strawman. You seem to have a lot of experience building them.
    _____________________________________________________________

    My response is: Nice misquote. You seem to have a lot of experience citing them.
    _____________________________________________________________

  84. lylelaws says:

    xring,

    Wow,talk about multi-tasking; in the same sentence in which you say it doesn’t matter if someone does not serve in the military, you call Reagan, Romney, and Romney’s sons chicken hawks because they didn’t.

    In answer to your question, I served in the USCG during the Korean War. My ship spent some time in the Korean War zone but I never served in combat.

    Does that make me a chicken hawk in your opinion?

  85. Ehill offered: What has BHO done different from Bush?”

    In one word: better.

    Bush:
    # Americans working 2/01/2001: 132,529,000
    # Americans working 8/31/2004: 131,610,000 a net loss of a million
    DJIA 1/20/2001: 10,646
    DJIA 8/31/2004: 10,173 a net loss of 500 pts

    Obama:
    # Americans working 2/01/2009: 132,837,000
    # Americans working 8/31/2012: 133,300,000 a net gain of half a million
    DJIA 1/20/2009: 8,116.
    DJIA 8/31/2012: 13,124 a net gain of 5,000 pts
    _____________________________________________________________

    I submit: The August jobs report set two records that we need to talk about. Both involve the labor participation rate — the share of the working-age population that has a job or is looking for a job. First, men’s participation rate fell to its lowest point on record (since 1948). Second, the overall participation rate fell to its lowest point since 1981.

    So, three years into a recovery, we are at a modern historical low for working-age adults who are actually working, or trying to find work. It cannot be overstated how much that is bad new. It means we make less stuff, have less wealth, and pay fewer taxes. It’s bad for growth, bad for deficits, bad for the stock market. (Weirdly, it also makes the unemployment rate seem artificially low.)

    In simple terms that even ehill can understand, August marked the highest percentage in over 30 years of employable workers and the highest percentage in 64 years of employable men woerkers who remain UNEMPLOYED. Even President George Bush couldn’t top this record set by the Obama administration.

    Maybe the real answer to ehill’s question,”What has BHO done different from Bush?” is not “Better” but incomplete.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-participation-mystery-why-are-so-many-men-dropping-out-of-the-workforce/262100/

  86. Rud, it is an election between 2 people, not a referendum on Romney/Ryan.

    If BHO had not been such a failure this election would be a landslide for the dems. No doubt the nation still has a bad taste for republicans after Bush (but 2010 proved it is individuals, not party that counts).

    Why should a voter ignore the last four years, or BHOs lack of a plan?

    I showed you Mitt’s plan. Where is BHOs? Not goals, but actionable policy? Why has ignored/abandoned his job council? Is that what we should expect?

  87. alindasue says:

    CT8 said, “If those tax cuts meant more jobs and increased revenue, would you support them?”

    The problem is they don’t mean more jobs and increased revenue. We’ve had tax cuts. It doesn’t “trickle down”.

    oldoc said, “Quite a few on this forum seem to credit the Obama administration for “saving” their 401Ks and IRAs. If that is so, why hasn’t similar investing whizardry been applied to OASI (Old Age and Survivor Insurance) and DI (Disability Insurance) Trust Funds?”

    The thing about the stock market, and our economy in general since the dollar was taken off the gold standard, is that much of it is dependent on consumer confidence.

    The truth is that the president has no direct control over the stock market. However his policies can have an effect on consumer confidence and thereby, in that way, affect the stock market and subsequently 401Ks and IRAs. When the bulk of the American people are employed and feeling more confident with their finances, they start buying more products and stock values tend to rise. (Note: the bulk of the American people do not earn over $250,000 in a year.)

    Trust funds operate a little differently though, more like bonds. A sudden increase in consumer confidence isn’t likely to change their value. The only way to increase their value beyond the usual scheduled interest is to input more money to the fund.

    One days stock numbers – up or down – don’t mean as much as how stocks perform over a long term trend. Short term up and down bursts always occur throughout the day or week based on the latest rumors and suspicions, but if a stock or mutual fund spends more time through the year up than down, the investor gains potential profit. (Of course, it doesn’t become actual profit until it is liquidated. Until then, any “profit” or “loss” is just on paper.)

    Dave98373,
    The thing about “independent” voters is that they are just that – independent. They don’t vote as a “independent” block and party affiliations have less important than the individual candidates themselves.

    For instance, I will probably vote to re-elect President Obama, a democrat, this time. I consider Jon Huntsman, a Republican, to be a better more-moderate choice for president, but he is no longer in the running. Given the choice between Mitt Romney and Barack Obama – and not finding another candidate yet better – I would vote for President Obama. It doesn’t matter what party any of them belong to.

  88. menopaws says:

    oldoc–I do not agree with your positions……..But, you bring knowledge and food for though when you post, as opposed to the bomb throwing, angry white men…………..So, that earns respect…….but, it needs to be returned….those of us who support President Obama have valid, intellectual reasons……..Differences in policy and approach can be debated—–the rest of the nasy belongs elsewhere…some on the right need to pay attention to

  89. menopaws says:

    sorry, phone rang………some on the right need to pay attention to your approach…when I get angry, it is because I have been confronted with vile language and ugly innuendo…and I return in kind……Others maintain their calm and I bow to their restraint and yours…….CT8, Frosty et al—pay attention to those who care about ideas……..You need to pay attention to that yourselves as does oldoc…….

  90. Alindasue, we have a progressive tax system that collectively screws the producers (individuals and businesses).

    I never said trickle down, neither have economists. That is term perpetuated by the left.

    The smaller a govt the better of the economy and the people. Fact.

  91. beerBoy says:

    Back to the original letter….Lyle you say that
    America should give Romney a chance to right the economic ship; if he can’t, we can send him packing after four years and let someone else try. But it is clearly time for a change.

    Without providing any support for why we should elect Romney other than him not being Obama. Is that because Romney really doesn’t have any other qualification?

  92. That is enough.

  93. SwordofPerseus says:

    Letter should read – Give Romney Four Years to Swamp the Economic Ship” Yes that would be more accurate according to the last 40 years of Republican leadership.

    Conc, your racism is showing.

    oldoc – what would you suggest as a practical approach to putting the “highest percentage in over 30 years of employable workers and the highest percentage in 64 years of employable men woerkers who remain UNEMPLOYED.”these people back to work? How do you crate jobs for these 20 or 30 million Americans?

  94. “I submit: The August jobs report set two records”

    nice try at deflection. Think anyone noticed?

  95. lylelaws says:

    beerBoy,

    I am just saying that we should take President Obama at his word. He said that if he didn’t turn things around in three and a half years he would be a one term President. That time has come and gone.

    The great majority of the people feel that the the country is going in the wrong direction and the business community simply does not have confidence in his leadership.

    He had his turn at bat and struck out so it is time to let someone else have a chance to lead us out of the disastrous econonic situation we find ourselves in before it is too late.

  96. sandblower says:

    Lyle, you are so uninformed it begs the question about whether you read anything beyond FOX-like stuff or not.
    The latest poll shows that Obama has increased his lead over what’s his name.
    I will not say that the polls might not change, but where was what’s his name’s bounce?
    He is an empty suit and most of the extreme right has a problem with him anyway. He’s not nuts enough!

  97. beerBoy says:

    it is an election between 2 people, not a referendum on Romney/Ryan.

    What an odd statement. The anti-Obama folks want this to be totally a referendum on Obama yet you don’t think the same thing should apply to Romney?

  98. And the pro-Obama mob wants America to ignore the last four years.

    Romney/Ryan are/should talk about plans for the future. BHO should be talking about what a great job he did for 4 years. Instead we hear excuses and goals, no plans.

  99. We could be in for one of the worst periods in the history
    of the human race. I don’t think that the opposing teams
    quarterbacks inspire me to do anything but hide my head.

  100. CT8, I am sorry you don’t pay attention to Obama’s plans. They are sitting waiting fpor action in the House. As you are probably aware, Obama did not abandon the jobs council report. Ryan, as a member agreed to it in the meetings and then joined with other Republicans to vote against it in an effort to try to embarass the president. All it did was to show his two-faced nature and the Republicans unwillingness do anythng to improve our situation so they can try to lay blame on Obama.

    Most Americans are wiser than that, but, unfortunately, you are one who likes deceit and lioes, and praises Republicans all the time for them

    If yu look at the jobs bill before Congress, the deficit reduction plan before Congress and other actual policy bills, then you will see a real plan. Without Republicans even being willing to debate such and bring the bills forward, Obama can only use executive powers, whioch are not much, since the Constitution gives all of the fiscal initiatives to Congress.

    Romney and Ryan both say that the Ryan budget proposal is not Romney’s, and they will not support it, but we don’t know what Romney’s is. Until then we can’t debate his plans, since he has not shared them with us, unlike Obama, who has laid his out for all to see.

  101. You are confusing (or ignorant of) jobs council vs Simpson Bowles.

    He had a year to ram through whatever he wanted. If he wanted to change taxes, he could of then.

    Obama’s budget got zero votes from his own party. A plan from him now would do what? Pass? No.

    Last, what part of broke are you not understanding? We are borrowing a trillion dollars a year. All those ‘jobs bills’ are just taxpayer debt being spent on selective industries. That is not the path to sustainable growth and govt.

  102. Lyle,
    Did you earn a Korea Service Metal?
    Do you support the US invading Iran, and Syria?

    CT8 –
    Obama has not started any wars, has ended one Bush War, and is well on the way to ending the second Bush War.

    Historical low taxes screw the ‘producers’ ?- Current top income tax rate 35%,; Last balanced budget top income rate was 39.5% so let’s screw they some a whole 4.5% .

    ‘smaller government better for economy’ – unless the government is to small and weak to protect the nation, or to build and maintain infrastructure.

  103. spotted1 says:

    If we are going to remove someone, can it please be Congress. Let’s face it, the President is only a figurehead most of the time. He can talk all he wants, but if Congress does not back it up, then nothing happens. Both the democrats and republicans are guilty of not supporting the sitting president and also supporting the sitting president.

    Get rid of them, put some people in place who truly want to get something done and not sit there as a full – time job rather than an elected official and this country might be okay, As long as we allow Congress to do little to nothing, we will get nothing accomplished. Consider this, how many of the people in Congress actually are “like us”?

  104. X, when 50% pay nothing in Fed income tax, and 10% pay 70%, we are forcing the successful to pay for everyone else’s security, infrastructure, and entitlements. It is wrong morally and bad policy.

  105. beerBoy says:

    Lyle – when I’m stuck in the mud I don’t jump off the cliff in order to get out of the mud.

    The solution to our financial crisis isn’t really going to happen with EITHER Romney nor Obama because it would require a complete re-examination of our approach and a willingness to stand up to the banks/Wall St (like Iceland did) and both of them need Wall St money to get elected. But, at least Obama isn’t planning on exuberantly removing all pretense that we haven’t devolved into a Banana Republic.

  106. MyBandito says:

    I’m not sure what difference a letter like this makes in Washington. Chances are, this state will do the right thing and go with Obama.

    Romney’s tax returns must be horribly incriminating, otherwise why would he risk a presidency by withholding them from the public? A reasonable person would have no trouble providing theirs, if asked.

  107. harleyrider1 says:

    President Obama elected 2008

    Nancy Pelosi 2008 – 2010 Speaker of the House

    Harry Reid 2007 – Present Senate majority Leader

    Cabinet Meetings Jan 31st and July 26 – only two

    June 20, 2012 Attorney General Holder cited for “Contempt” following his refusal to turn over all documents related to “Fast and Furious” to Congress. Pretty easy question to answer: ‘Who authorized’

    The promises of being “transparent”, the promises of doing everything to help America’s energy problem by denying our Canadian friends pipeline, allowing 191 days to go by without meeting with his own Jobs Council (most recent was July 26th.

    This is not a time to be angry. Obama is “our” President – not just yours. We all have a say in hiring him back. I voted for hope and change. Now, as just another America, I want a change. Freedom – it allows all of us to have opinions and not be attacked. Yours does not have to be mine.

  108. I began a post with: I submit: The August jobs report set two records”
    __________________________________________________________

    Ehill sophomorically retorted: “nice try at deflection. Think anyone noticed?”
    __________________________________________________________

    My reply is: Ehill, point out in my post an instance of deflection. Yes, most of us notice that your incessant reliance on nonsensical one-liners prove little other than what a complete bore you are.

  109. Swordof Perseus asked: oldoc – what would you suggest as a practical approach to putting the “highest percentage in over 30 years of employable workers and the highest percentage in 64 years of employable men woerkers who remain UNEMPLOYED.”these people back to work? How do you crate jobs for these 20 or 30 million Americans?
    _________________________________________________________

    A temporary job creation tax credit for employment within the US and creditable only against profits earned in the US.

    Many parts of the American Jobs Act would be acceptable to both sides of the aisle if awarding of contracts did not unduly favor union backed bidders.

    Currency exchange reform is required.

    Elimination of the corporate tax credits based on taxes paid to foreign governments.

    A serious government sponsored ad blitz on the “Buy American” theme.

    Elimination of any non safety related regulations that inhibit the extraction and marketing of US fossil fuel resources.

    That is a start….you can add.

  110. CT8, you are correct jobs council was not Simpson Bowles that I was tinking of. The phony Republican outrage over the jobs council reports (there have been several) is so ridiculous that I had let it slip my mind.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2012/07/20/the-phony-outrage-over-obamas-jobs-council

    This article outlines why it is a phony issue:

    Among the many points:

    “The JOBS Act passed earlier this year contained measures to aid small, fast-growing companies, just as the jobs council recommended. Obama used an executive order to fulfill another council recommendation, speeding up the process for foreigners requesting a visa for travel to the United States. ”

    and….

    “But many of the council’s recommendations require the kind of congressional action that’s not likely in the current climate of hostility, especially in an election year. One good example: allowing more highly skilled immigrants to remain in the United States, which many economists consider a no-brainer. Yet Congress has dithered on the necessary approvals, which is a shameful abdication of responsibility.

    Other big priorities, such as education and tax reform, will require years of work and deep compromise. As with many other challenges affecting the U.S. economy, the problem isn’t figuring out what needs to be done. It’s doing it.”

    That is why voters should give a message to Congress, too, that their time of working against America instead of for it is over.

  111. fibonnaci “proudly did not serve”. Spoken like a true PATRIOT! It’s alright with me that you didn’t serve, you saved the government a lot of money and time in processing you out as “unfit” to serve. The military has better things to do than to try to house train puupies.

  112. xring, the word is “medal” not “metal”.

  113. Here’s ol’menopaws trying to act like the school marm, preaching to CT8 and I about how to behave. LOL! she has “intellectual” reasons to vote for Obama! hahaha.Maybe he’ll hire her as his caddy.

  114. before I’m corrected by xring, the word is “puppies”. I hate to steal your thunder.

  115. “Ehill, point out in my post an instance of deflection.”

    As you well know, the post to which you were responding was a comparison of the job-creation records of the Bush and Obama administrations.

    “your incessant reliance on nonsensical one-liners prove little other than what a complete bore you are.”

    when you know you don’t have the intellectual horsepower to refute the message, attack the messenger.

  116. LeePHilI says:

    “CT8 says:
    Sep. 8, 2012 at 11:46 pm X, when 50% pay nothing in Fed income tax, and 10% pay 70%”

    Translation: Half of Americans don’t make enough to pay income tax and 10% make enough to be responsible for 70% of the total revenue, even though they are paying a lesser percentage because they don’t work for their income – it is generated by the stock market that the conservatives say is not really an indicator of the economy.

    It’s pretty damned sad that our country is owned by so few and they want more.

  117. timeaftertime says:

    No,no and no!

  118. LeePHilI says:

    “The promises of being “transparent”, the promises of doing everything to help America’s energy problem by denying our Canadian friends pipeline”

    It’s a well known fact that the pipeline was to be for exporting oil, not for the American market.

    Complaints about “transparency” are really a laugh. You could only complain about a lack of transparency if the Administration were caugh hiding something….which has not happened.

    How many cabinet meetings need to be held? If he held three would that be “50% too much”? Another manufactured issue….

    You want transparency? http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/02/01/readout-president-s-cabinet-meeting

    “June 20, 2012 Attorney General Holder cited for “Contempt”

    Only one problem….Holder was following the law as it is written. Issa was grandstanding for the rubes and it appears it worked – at least with one rube.

  119. lylelaws says:

    xring,

    I am sure that I didn’t receive a Korean Service Medal because was never in Korea. My ship served some time in the Korean War zone but never had any combat action.

    Sometimes military awards are well deserved and sometimes they are not. For example, John Kerry received three Purple Hearts without missing a day of duty before he got to come back to America to lead war protests after serving four months on a swift boat.

    Oh, and by the way all of his injuries, none of which were serious enough to cause him to be hospitalized, or even miss duty were reported by he himself.

  120. LeePHilI says:

    “Apr 20, 2009 · Just back from a Latin America summit, Mr. Obama told the first formal Cabinet meeting of his administration” – CBS News

    Hmmm…someone is misrepresenting the actual issue…

  121. LeePHilI says:

    Lyle where is your proof about John Kerry’s military service? Swiftboat Liars of America?

    You whine about people not serving, but when a Democrat serves and is decorated, you turn it into a conspiracy. I’m betting you think Bush flew planes in combat also.

  122. LeePHilI says:

    While Lyle is busy smearing Kerry’s Purple Hearts, he forgot to smear Kerry’s Silver Star:

    “Eight days later, on February 28, 1969, came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others in an eight boat formation. Their mission on the Duong Keo river included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese Marines to destroy enemy sampans, structures and bunkers as described in the story The Death Of PCF 43.[39] Running into an ambush, Kerry “directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions” and he “expertly directed” his boat’s fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry’s boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat beached at the site, a VC with a rocket launcher jumped and ran from a spider hole. While the boat’s gunner opened fire, wounding the VC on the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.”

    A little khaki jealosy?

  123. lylelaws says:

    LeePhill,

    Punch up John Kerry on your pc, and go to snopes.com.John Kerry Swift boats to see what his peers in the U.S. Navy had to say about him.

  124. lylelaws says:

    LeePHill,

    You asked me for proof earlier so let me ask you.

    Did someone witness Kerry killing a VC or was it just based on what he said?

  125. Lyle, since he has never served he has no clue what happens in the fog of war and how medals get awarded.

    Tuds, he put that council together then declares true reform ‘too hard’? Why not meet with them anyway, show America what business wants and where or why it is not happening?

    At a minimum it is bad PR, looking like he doesn’t care. I think he was/is just avoiding tough decisions (and avoiding a council that finds him bad for business).

  126. Right. And the earth is flat and unicorns are real and George Bush economics will work with Romney at the helm.

  127. I asked: Ehill, point out in my post an instance of deflection.”
    ________________________________________________________

    Ehill responded: As you well know, the post to which you were responding was a comparison of the job-creation records of the Bush and Obama administrations.
    ________________________________________________________

    I provided you with a frame of reference for your lame comparison.
    _______________________________________________________

    “your incessant reliance on nonsensical one-liners prove little other than what a complete bore you are.”
    ________________________________________________________

    Ehill, sagely offered: when you know you don’t have the intellectual horsepower to refute the message, attack the messenger.
    ________________________________________________________

    When the messenger delivers a worthwhile message he has little fear of attack. Your typical one-line inanities do not qualify.

  128. Menopaws wrote: oldoc–I do not agree with your positions……..But, you bring knowledge and food for though when you post, as opposed to the bomb throwing, angry white men….
    ______________________________________________________

    Thank you Minny. We have bomb throwers on both sides of most of the issues that are discussed on this forum. There are reasonable liberal positions presented but at least five leftist contributors deal exclusively in misinformation, half truths and faulty comparisons. I am sure that you know who I mean. There are very few, if any political absolutes and most choices are generally made comparatively. Partisan talking points seldom change perceptions nor reality.

  129. “I provided you with a frame of reference”

    Ah, so now quoting something out of context is “providing a frame of reference.” Thanks.

  130. CT8, speak to Boehner on why nothing has been done on the reforms you seem to want. He will not bring them up or allow any committees to look at anything the president brings forward.

    After Obama wins another term, I think there might be some breaks among Republicans in Congress with many realizing that to have a democracy means representing all the people, and not just the 20% who identify as tea partiers.

  131. Fibonacci says:

    frosty
    When I said I proudly did not serve I was responding to Lyle constantly tooting his horn about military service. Whether or not someone served in the military is irrelevant. It does not make your opinion any more valid if you served, but old Lyle obviously thinks it does. As to my fitness to serve or not, you know absolutely nothing about me, except in your little right wing-nut mind only vets are important.

  132. So we are back to ‘its the fault of the republican congress’?

    You ignore two huge facts- he did have the house and senate, and he could have basically passed whatever he wanted. Second, the republicans only have the house. The senate is the least productive in a century, thanks to Harry.

    Are you tired of excuses?

  133. averageJose says:

    “when I’m stuck in the mud I don’t jump off the cliff in order to get out of the mud”

    …ummmm if you could “jump”… you wouldn’t be “stuck”.

    :D

  134. Good,flamin,grief! 132 comments and very few address the content of the letter.

    Our economic growth is the pits. It isn’t as bad as the mess left over by President Carter but it is the pits!

    Fools who insist we are on the right track should read “Throw them all out” and “Bailout”. Once you do you will understand what the letter writer is expressing and realize D or R are not always the problem . . .

  135. sandblower says:

    CT8, the Senate is the least productive in (a long time) because of the extreme number of filibuster manuvers put forth by the republicans. There is no other reason and it fits with the “one term limit on President Obama.”

  136. No other reason? How about Harry being worthless. More concerned about lobbying for his son’s company than the American people.

    Do you remember 2009, when republicans were pushed aside and progressive crap was pushed through against the will of the people? 2010 showed the dems how America felt.

    When BHO, Nancy, and Harry were running around doing whatever they want, why weren’t taxes raised on the rich, the Dream act pushed through, and ‘equal’ pay rammed through?

  137. LeePHilI says:

    “You ignore two huge facts- he did have the house and senate, and he could have basically passed whatever he wanted.”

    When in hell are conservatives going to quit telling this lie?????

    Republicans filibustered the Senate to death from 2009 to 2010. The Democracts did not have a filibuster proof majority, other than a small window of about 30 days before Ted Kennedy’s death and during that time, he wasn’t voting because he was dying of brain cancer.

    This is a perfect example of how conservatives will tell the same lie over and over to attempt to make it the truth.

  138. LeePHilI says:

    Lyle and CT, with their “miliary experience”, are going to try to convince us that the US military was conned by a 20 year old kid, who knew that he’d need medals so that in 25 years, they can run for president and talk about it. This is how much they hate veterans who choose to be Democrats.

    Meanwhile, they’ll talk about Bush as though he was Audie Murphy because he strutted on an aircraft carrier with a codpiece on.

    What’s really disgusting is that their kind will go so far as to say that the former Senator from Georgia self inflicted his wounds (three lost limbs).

    These are your internet war heros, folks.

    I guess if John Kerry could manipulate the military for his medals, there is no reason why Lyle or CT couldn’t do it……right?

  139. lylelaws says:

    sandblower,

    While I agree that filibusters sometimes obstruct good legislation, both sides use, or threaten to use it.

    We could use some other reforms of procedures that waste time and don’t solve problems. For example, presidents should be able to exercise line-item vetoes to keep Congress from forcing them to accept some legislation they oppose in order to get bills passed.

  140. LeePHilI says:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

    Yeah, Lyle….try actually READING snopes, rather than just taking a couple of comments that some right wing blog manipulated.

    There are quotes from people who ACTUALLY SERVED WITH KERRY, that thank him for saving their lives.

  141. I did not say he injured himself, those that served with him did. Nice distraction.

    So how did Obamacare get rammed through? And they could not get ONE senator to vote for common sense proposals? Of course they could.

  142. LeePHilI says:

    Obamacare could not be filibustered because it was a tax issue.

    Why don’t you educate yourself before blustering out stupid things and then trying to cover up.

    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=155

    Oh and those that served with Kerry didn’t say that. You don’t know squat about the Swiftboat Liars either, do you?

    If conservatives didn’t have right wing blogs to fill them full of lies, they’d have to depend on the truth and be disappointed.

  143. LeePHilI says:

    “And they could not get ONE senator to vote for common sense proposals?”

    Olympia Snowe is well known for considering and voting for Democrat items.

    She retired to avoid a nasty TEA Party primary. She was quite candid about how disgusted she was with the Republican Party.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-olympia-snowe-announces-retirement-can-the-gop-hold-her-seat/2012/02/29/gIQAlQoTiR_story.html

    More education for you

  144. I have “Unfit for Command” right on my shelf. Very interesting book.

    Lol, a tax issue.

    So nothing is his fault, he could pass nothing, blah blah blah.

    He could, but didn’t. He is responsible due to his title alone.

  145. Now it is the Tea Party’s fault. 60+ congressmen. Is BHO that powerless?

    Another hippie typing away while wearing a tinfoil hat and drinking a Zima.

  146. took14theteam says:

    They still make Zima?

    :-)

  147. took14theteam says:

    When Obamacare was passed, it wasn’t a “Tax” issue.

    It didn’t become a “Tax” issue until it was legislated from the SCOTUS decision.

  148. took14theteam says:

    Piano man seems a little more angry tonight than usual.

  149. It sold exclusively at Hill’s ‘shows’.

  150. lylelaws says:

    LeePhill,

    Nothing is worse than cheapening an honor.

    After being severly wounded during WWI and spending many months in the hospital, my dad walked with a profound limp for the rest of his life, and when I learned that John Kerry had been given three purple hearts without missing a day of duty I was disgusted.

    I don’t know who recommended him for those awards, but according to the records he reported all three incidents himself, and got the awards before returning to America and becomming a war protester.

    I don’t think someone should have to be killed or permanently disabled to recieve such high honors, but give me a break.

  151. SwordofPerseus says:

    Lyle – There are many things worse than cheapening an honor. Killing innocent civilians for example. Sorry that medical technology was sorely lacking in WWI for all the boys. Maybe John Kerry is made of tough stuff.

    Lyle further added; “I don’t know…”, I don’t think…”That sums it up the content of your comments pretty well.

  152. John Kerry???!!!???

    Really folks, when you complain that the “libs” bring up W’s economic policies, isn’t it a little odd to bring up John Kerry’s service record in the Vietnam war?

    But…..carry on reminding us about those purple heart band aids the Republican delegates wore – it serves to remind us just how low class and mean-spirited some on the Right are.

  153. LeePHilI says:

    “when I learned that John Kerry had been given three purple hearts without missing a day of duty I was disgusted.”

    But…if he missed a day due to his injury…then?????

    Oh my gawd, how small minded can one get???
    —————————–

    As I read the comments on filibustering, I’m amused to think that the cons know nothing about our legislative system…but they know that it has been executed wrong.

  154. LeePHilI says:

    “took14theteam says:
    Sep. 9, 2012 at 9:07 pm When Obamacare was passed, it wasn’t a “Tax” issue.
    It didn’t become a “Tax” issue until it was legislated from the SCOTUS decision.”

    What a maroon!! (As Bugs would say). LOL

    Uh…lets see, how do we do this gently? The “tax issue” was the “fee” for not purchasing insurance – written into Obamacare and declared constitutional by the Supreme Court.

    Now someone thinks that the Supreme Court wrote its own rules into Obamacare. LMAO

    What is really sad about all of this is that the media has been full of the correct stories since 2009 and the fools have avoided them, by seeking lies in the right wing blogosphere.

    More American Thinker, I say!!!!

  155. LeePHilI says:

    “got the awards before returning to America and becomming a war protester”

    I’ll bet you really hate Ron Kovic.

    Last time I knew, protesting was legal, as per the Constitution. Who better to protest war than one who was really there??????

  156. It’s really invigorating to read all of these liberals defending the military for a change. Sunshine patriots by the dozen.

  157. LeePHilI says:

    Someone has to counter all the faux patriotism from the cons

  158. frosty – when the most decorated career officer of all time, a 34 year veteran of the Marines, Smedley Butler wrote that War is a Racket, who am I to disagree?

    I also have to sit up an take notice to what General Martin Dempsey told the Israelis.
    http://www.darkmoon.me/2012/a-warning-to-israel/

  159. I asked: Ehill, point out in my post an instance of deflection.”
    ________________________________________________________

    Ehill responded: “As you well know, the post to which you were responding was a comparison of the job-creation records of the Bush and Obama administrations.”
    ________________________________________________________

    I then wrote: I provided you with a frame of reference for your lame comparison.

    Your incessant reliance on nonsensical one-liners prove little other than what a complete bore you are.
    ________________________________________________________

    Ehill, sagely offered: “when you know you don’t have the intellectual horsepower to refute the message, attack the messenger.”
    ________________________________________________________

    My response is: When the messenger delivers a worthwhile message he has little fear of attack. Your typical one-line inanities do not qualify.
    _________________________________________________________

    Taking another track, ehill says: “Ah, so now quoting something out of context is “providing a frame of reference.” Thanks.”
    _________________________________________________________

    I know this may come as a shock to you ehill but if you read the link that I provided to support my statement you will find it completely within the context of the article. Since you seem totally committed to supporting the unsupportable, try reading the link…..the writing in a blue color beneath the frame of reference which you continue to reject.

    You are welcome…but I am growing weary of explaining even the simplist of things to you.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-participation-mystery-why-are-so-many-men-dropping-out-of-the-workforce/262100/

  160. “I’m amused to think that the cons know nothing about our legislative system”

    Yet 60 junior congrssmen can stop Obama’s progressive agenda in its tracks?

  161. Obama’s progressive agenda

    Which is?

    Seriously…with all this wailing and gnashing of the teeth about Obama being a “socialist/marxist”, his “progressive agenda”, his attempts to turn US into a “European socialism” that the Beck/ditto heads keep writing about, you would think us Lefties would be a heck of a lot more enthusiastic about his presidency than we are.

    He is a triangulating centrist in the Clinton mold. All this b.s. about his “progressive agenda” is a figment of your imagination. If he truly were a “socialist/marxist” or aiming for “european socialism” he would have fought for Universal, single-payer healthcare instead of Romneycare lite.

  162. but I am growing weary of explaining even the simplist of things to you.

    You could just not respond to posters who you find annoying. I’ve been attempting to do that – takes discipline but in the long run I think it is worth it.

  163. beerboy, I’m glad that you don’t find me ‘annoying” since you’re still responding to me. I don’t find any of the lib posters here annoying, especially menopaws and xring. I find them entertaining and somewhat confused and in need of some serious intervention but otherwise it’s fun to read their comments. LeePHill and SOP take themselves too seriously and actually believe they are above other posters. They are also funny but tend to be elitists who would not want to go a week without a manicure.

  164. took14theteam says:

    Is that why you don’t talk to me anymore beerBoy?

    ;-)

  165. I was impressed with one thing on Meet the Press that Romney said and said that he still had a little bit of a moderate left in him. Even though I find his repeal of Affordable Health Care against my values, he said that he would make sure that pre-existing conditions were covered by insurance companies and that children could retain coverage through parents at any age.

    Sadly, this was just another lie? /flip-flop?/fool the people? statement. The AP reports that the Romney campaign “clarified” his statement this way:

    “In reference to how Romney would deal with those with preexisting conditions and young adults who want to remain on their parents’ plans, a Romney aide responded that there had been no change in Romney’s position and that ‘in a competitive environment, the marketplace will make available plans that include coverage for what there is demand for. He was not proposing a federal mandate to require insurance plans to offer those particular features.'”

    We already have a competitive environment, and that is what the problem is. Insurance companies exist to make the highest profit so it can pay their CEO’s and top execs overblown salaries and charge the highest administrative costs they can get away with. They really aren’t in the business of health care, but in the betting business.

    It takes regulations to require coverage for certain individuals, not magical thinking and prevarication like Romney has committed.

  166. “you seem totally committed to supporting the unsupportable, try reading the link”

    LOL

  167. Tuds, you make a compelling argument for a single payer system. My question for you is how do we afford it, how does an organization as the federal govt manage it, how do we ensure quality does not suffer for quantity, and how do justify the govt taking over such a huge part of the economy (it goes against all of our founding principles)?

    Also, with the thresholds we have for who pays what in taxes/fees, you are shifting more socialist costs to a shrinking capitalistic base. More free stuff inspires no one to success. Then there are the secondary concerns of how people will treat their body. Already our number one killers can be attributed to behavior.

    Romney supporting the rights of states to spend money how they see fit is not a flip flop.

  168. “If you don’t hurry ehill, you’ll miss the school bus. Don’t forget your lunch.”

    What an excellent job of refuting the point. You truly are an intellectual giant.

  169. You did miss the bus!

  170. “You did miss the bus!

    Now there’s a classic case of projection. LOL

  171. “You did miss the bus!

    Now there’s a classic case of projection. LOL
    _____________________________________________________________

    Now there’s a classic case of attacking the messenger. LOL

  172. Here’s a clue: it only undercuts you when you do exactly what you claim others are doing.

  173. Put on your big boy pants.

  174. commoncents says:

    CT8 – curious to why you say that 50% pay no fed income taxes? Do they not pay FICA? Is FICA not ultimately used to help run fed govt? Why is $1 coming from one source worth more than $1 coming from a different source if it’s used to pay for the same line item?

    Additionally, if that 10% that pay 70% of FIT also earn 70% of wages…should they not pay 70% of the taxes? Taxes are not levied on an individual

  175. “Put on your big boy pants.”

    LOL – still taking the high road?

  176. “Put on your big boy pants.”

    LOL – still taking the high road?
    _____________________________________________________

    Blatant deflection….no excuse for it.

  177. Blatant projection. No excuse for it.

    Tired yet? I can go on beating you like a dusty carpet if you prefer, or you could try to engage in reasoned discourse. Which will it be?

  178. Commoncents asked: CT8 – curious to why you say that 50% pay no fed income taxes? Do they not pay FICA? Is FICA not ultimately used to help run fed govt? Why is $1 coming from one source worth more than $1 coming from a different source if it’s used to pay for the same line item?
    ___________________________________________________________

    The Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA) is the legislation requiring employers to collect from employees the INSURANCE PREMIUM for the Old Age Survivor Disability Disability (OASDI) Federal Program. The revenues are earmarked to fund those programs but were comingled with other government revenues during the Johnson administration. It is true that these funds have been used to pay for other government activities and, to date, over $5 trillion has been borrowed and are now said to be in a “trust fund” consisting of IOU’s.

    One dollar coming from FICA collections is worth more than a dollar in Federal Income Tax because it MUST BE REPAID. There is no requirement to return FIT to the taxpayer. Unlike the $619 billion savings gleaned from Medicare/Medicaid to pay for Obamacare, you can’t spend the same dollar twice.

    The 50% that are purported to pay no FIT do pay FICA premiums and are entitled to the benefits that they have paid for when they qualify for them. Again, the reminder that the same dollar cannot be spent twice.

    As to your thought that, “Taxes are not levied on an individual”, I might ask: Who goes to jail if your taxes are not paid? Whose bank accounts and property are siezed?

  179. Ehill submitted: Blatant projection. No excuse for it.

    Tired yet? I can go on beating you like a dusty carpet if you prefer, or you could try to engage in reasoned discourse. Which will it be?_______________________________________________________________

    Get out the old carpet swatter and tee up your next deflection.

  180. Common- top 1, 5, 10, 50% pay more in taxes then they earn, as a % of pop. Old news.

    http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/how-your-income-stacks-up.html

  181. CT8, in the post you were replying to I never mentioned single-payer. I do believe that if we had single payer and we took the same amount of money people use to buy private insurance that we could cover 100% at a lower cost than what we are paying for the 85% that is covered today.

    We know from analysis and projections that the Affordable Health Care Act will cause about 92% of Americans at a total cost about the same or even a little less than what we are paying today, even with the waste of administrative costs and bureaucracy gone wild in private insurance. If we got administrative costs down to the level of Medicare in a single payer plan, we could easily cover 100% at a lower total cost.

    When (and if) single payer ever makes it to a real debate, I’d be glad to discuss this with you. Until then we’ve got the comparisons between Obamacare and Romneynocare.

  182. aislander says:

    Government cannot BE the economy, but it can damage and impede the economy.

    Enforce basic laws against theft and fraud, but DON’T try to predict every possibility, and create rules to deal with them. That only clogs up the works.

    Government does not have money of its own, so it must take money out of the economy; therefore, government economic stimulus is a fiction.

    So, leave the economy alone and leave resources in the economy. Productive Americans will do the rest…

  183. “So, leave the economy alone and leave resources in the economy. Productive Americans will do the rest…”

    Want a completely free economy? Move to Somalia. I hear their economy is booming. Or is that their second amendment freedom I’m hearing?

  184. There is no debate between romneycare and BHOcare. Romney stated clearly and many times that was a state model, not applicable to the Nation.

    Are you still lost on the cost for Obamacare? And thousands of IRS agents? Come on.

  185. aislander says:

    Only a COMPLETE fool would equate a free market in a civil society, guided by rule of law, with dysfunctional Somalia.

    And yes that WAS an attack on the messenger with no message!

  186. aislander says:

    It is SO annoying when a puling pismire such as e***l ignores parts of a post that don’t support or flat contradict the “point” it is trying to make to attack a cherry-picked sentence or phrase in a completely and cynically illegitimate way.

    It apparently missed: “Enforce basic laws against theft and fraud…”

    That’s happening a lot in Somalia, is it?

    POS

  187. Just got my monthly statement from my Mutual Funds – since Obama has been in office I have made up the losses from the W crash and have gained considerably.

    That doesn’t change the jobs situation but, to say that the economy hasn’t improved under Obama is more than a little simplistic.

  188. Islander,
    ‘leave the economy alone ‘
    exactly what Bush and the Republicans did,
    and what did we get,
    two needless wars,
    a busted economy, and
    several $trillion dollars in debt.

    ‘productive Americans’
    Which ones?
    The ones whose jobs were outsourced? Or
    The ones who did the outsourcing?

    Guess we will just have ‘to leave the economy and resources alone’ while ‘guiding it with the rule of law’.

    Or should we ‘guide it with the light from above’

    IMO: What we have in Somalia is the quintessential robber baron economy where everyone needs to beware of both the buyer and the seller.

    CT8
    ‘not applicable to the Nation’ yet Romney is now saying he will keep much of the Obamacare intact?

  189. Scottc51 says:

    We are fortunate to have a quality problem solver like Romney in the race. Four more years of Obama blaming everyone and everything else is going to really hurt this country. Nothing has happened but massive debt over many years, especially the last 4.

  190. aislander says:

    xring: Are you trying to be laughable?

    If so: mission accomplished!

    Your assertion that there was some sort of regulatory abeyance ANY TIME in the last eighty-some years is ridiculous! But worse, it may cause some credulous Americans to believe there is no need for regulatory relief when that is one of the first and most vital things the nation needs.

  191. BB, remove fed pumping and the market would look quite different. To the middle class that is earning $4k less per year, a bull market means very little. If home values bounced back, then you migh have a decent metric that means something to the average joe.

  192. averageJose says:

    Wait til the bill comes due… my 457 gained too… too bad it’ll buy a helluva lot less now than 4 years ago… and the forecast looks even more grim.

  193. averageJose says:

    Just got my monthly statement from my Mutual Funds… oh my. Are YOU making profits from those evil corporations?

  194. CT89, vote for Republicans and home values will never come back. The elimination of the mortgage deduction is what Romney is waltzing around when he says he will eliminate deductions to allow tax cuts for the wealthy.

    We know that he has stated his support for eliminating the second home interest deduction, and there are many credible reports that he said the proposal during Simpson Bowles to change the deduction to a 12% credit “didn’t go far enough”.

    I hope during the debates Obama holds Romney’s feet to the fire to make him detail what deductions he would get rid of.

  195. aislander says:

    Get rid of them all. The tax system should be for generating revenue to operate the government, not for social engineering OR favoritism for certain industries or corporations…

  196. lylelaws says:

    tuddo,

    Do you support second home interest deductions?

    That sounds like something all of those “rich and greedy” Republicans would oppose so why do you fault Romney for doing so?

    Come on tuddo, you can’t have it both ways.

  197. the3rdpigshouse says:

    For all you folks who think beerBoy is an unbiased observer of the political fight for the presidency of the greatest nation on earth, I have a surprise for you! beerBoy is an educated black citizen who is well educated and is also an extremely biased supporter of “OH-Bummer” ONLY because he is black!!! beerBoy will cajole you into believing he is objective however, he is one of the most biased and racist people on this site!

    Sometimes the truth is all there is!

  198. Wow! I’m black now!

    ROTFLMAO

    I will say this, I’m glad I’m not, as Lindsey Graham typified GOP supporters, an “angry white guy”.

    btw – I have gotten over my panic about Romney/Ryan (and realized that, in Idaho, my vote will be “thrown away” no matter which non-Republican I vote for) and will cast my totally symbolic vote for Jill Stein, the Green candidate.

  199. LeePHilI says:

    “aislander says:
    Sep. 10, 2012 at 3:44 pm It is SO annoying when a puling pismire such as e***l ignores parts of a post that don’t support or flat contradict the “point” it is trying to make to attack a cherry-picked sentence or phrase in a completely and cynically illegitimate way.”

    Not sure of ehill actually did such and I won’t take the time to look because it’s not that important, but such activity is the stock in trade of the Republican party when misquoting Obama and trying to make it “history”

    Of course aislander would NEVER do such a thing ::::wry smile:::::

  200. LeePHilI says:

    “CT8 says:
    Sep. 10, 2012 at 3:29 pm There is no debate between romneycare and BHOcare. Romney stated clearly and many times that was a state model, not applicable to the Nation.

    Doh!!!

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/07/romney-once-touted-parts-of-romneycare-as-a-national-model/

  201. In case anyone missed it – 3rdpig has declared me biased and therefore not worthy of having my opinions considered because he thinks I am black.

    But…..we all know that racism has nothing to do with his virulent anti-Obama rhetoric……

  202. but then….maybe I read his post wrong…..perhaps he is saying that no one should consider my opinions because I am educated.

  203. LeePHilI says:

    I think that is called “educationism”…..LOL

  204. averageJose says:

    Educated… or indoctrinated?

  205. SwordofPerseus says:

    Don’t worry beerBoy, none of us with any intellect even considers 3rdpig as anything but a right wing, racist nut job of the highest order.

  206. lyle, you asked me if I support second home mortgage deductions. My answer? I would keep it, but if Romney wanted to eliminate it for people making over $250,000, but keep it for those under that threshold, then I would support that, too.

    Yes, social engineering is something the government does quite well in some instances but messes up quite famously some times. We don’t always keep up with the times, and we still pour government money and give deductions and credits for industries that don’t need or warrant our support, like oil and gas (full disclosure: I own property with several gas leases on them and take full advantage of the tax incentives for such).

    The home mortgage deduction has been a very successful support to one of the foundations of our economy – the building and trades industry – and has allowed middle class families to own instead of rent. 90% of property in England is owned by 10% of the people, and we are moving toward that direction, too, with elimination of middle class incentives.

  207. Romney’s economic ship is the Cracker Bay, sailing under the Cayman Island flag and charging $1 million each for access.

  208. SoP – not worried at all – profoundly amused at the unintentional revealing of his deep-seated anti-intellectual, race-based beliefs/fears.

  209. First home mortgage interest deductions have some rationale (which come from an anti-union basis – encourage workers to become profoundly in debt by buying a home and they will be less likely to strike).

    Second home mortgage interest deduction is a way to promote investment in addition to one’s immediate needs. This supports the landlord, not the average homeowner. I support getting rid of it.

  210. commoncents says:

    old doc – is there a guarantee that SS money will be returned to the employee from whom it was withheld? Please show me where…It’s not. In fact the SCOTUS has even said exactly this. BTW they are not premiums. FICA is a tax. FIT is a tax. Both are based upon income and are not per capita taxes (which is what I meant when I said the individual is not taxed – my bad for not being more clear – it was a horribly written sentence). There is no fundamental difference between the two except one funds government programs directly while the other funds them after funding a specific program first.

  211. commoncents says:

    CT8 – again…% of tax should never be compared to population. It should always be compared to % of income earned since that is the basis upon which the tax is collected.

  212. commoncents says:

    aislander – per your comment regarding the elimination of all deductions…assuming that you are arguing for a flat tax. Would you tax unearned income at the same rate as earned income? Or would you not tax that at all? Would you tax inheritance at same rate or not at all? Just curious as I would be amenable to a switch to a flat tax system (assuming first 20k would not be taxed to alleviate the burden on the lower income) but only if all income is taxed equally and I consider money received as an inheritance is income to the receiver.

  213. aislander says:

    I would raise the exempted income level to $35K (per the Forbes plan), but would not tax income that has already been taxed.

    The key to upward mobility is to allow individuals and families to retain enough wealth that it can attain “critical mass,” allowing people to invest and start businesses. That is made difficult by a system that punishes productive behavior…

  214. aislander says:

    The $35K level assumes a family of four.

  215. common, click on the link. Shows % of taxes paid as a % of total govt revenues and the share of total national income.

  216. aislander says:

    A consumption tax would be even more pro-growth since people would be able to set their own priorities regarding saving and spending. Such a tax system would encourage saving, which means more people would have the means to start businesses, invest effectively, or buy housing.

    Another real benefit would be that people would be much more aware of the effect of taxation on their personal “economies…”

  217. commoncents says:

    aislander – the amount can be negotiated (though congress does little of that). To me that’s not as important as making sure that the rate is appropriately set. I realize that no matter what you do there will people whose rates will increase and they will be unhappy but it can’t be the largest population base or our economy will tumble.

    You kind of danced around the unearned income and death tax. I’m assuming that you would not tax unearned income or inherited income at all. If I’m wrong, I apologise. But if I’m right, tell me exactly how taxing it at the same rate as any other productive activity (like actually working) is punishing? I believe that all money new to me should be taxed. The fact that I got it through passive means (either earned by my investments or through the death of another) doesn’t change the fact that it’s new. It was not earned through the fruits of my labor but someone elses. Seems to me that you are punishing actually working for a living under that scenario.

  218. commoncents says:

    consumption based tax system does reward savings but is that a good thing in a society and economy that’s built around service and spending? I would think too that when you spread the tax around to purchases that people are actually less aware of the cumulative effect of taxation. I know at the end of the year how much I pay the feds, but I have no idea how much I pay the state.

  219. Commoncents….While it is true that there is no guarantee that SS money will be returned to the same individual from which it was withheld it is equally true that the system operates essentially as an insurance mechanism. In fact federal publications refer to a Primary Insurance Amount in calculating benefits. In view of the recent SCOTUS decision regarding health care mandates it is clear that legislators in the 1930’s were even then aware that requiring the purchase of insurance was in violation of the Constitution. Hence, it is a tax. Levying taxes is within the power of the Congress.

    I differ with your conclusion that FICA and FIT are fundamedntally the same. FIT is collected and spent but the revenues are not specifically earmarked. Once spent these funds do not reappear as a bookkeeping asset.

    FICA, on the other hand is used to pay scheduled benefits first and any revenue excess is placed in the general Treasury, spent and
    the amount borrowed is replaced by an IOU and becomes an asset in the “Social Security Trust Fund.” The theory being that the US Treasury will redeem its IOUs whenever FICA collections do meet scheduled benefit payments.

    Since our govenment consistently runs a deficit, Treasury redemption of IOU’s to fund SS shortfalls then become a debit item included in the National Debt. If our government had any recent history of actually honoring the massive obligations that represent the National debt I would probably agree with your characterization that FICA and FIT are fundamentally the same.

  220. TEXT CORRECTION: FICA collections DO NOT meet scheduled benefit payments. (paragraph 3, last sentence)

  221. aislander says:

    Investments are not “passive,” and, in fact carry varying degrees of risk. The tax–if any–on returns on investments MUST be low enough to justify the risk or the investments will not be made.

    As for the “death tax,” that is on assets that I consider to be “family money,” and it has already been taxed, leaving the family with less money than it otherwise would have had.

    The really destructive aspect of the “death tax” is its effect on family businesses, many of which must be liquidated to pay the tax man.

    The best exemplar of that is Dairy Queen, which WAS a family business but was acquired in liquidation by that TRUE “vulture capitalist,” Warren Buffett who is a proponent of–you guessed it–the death tax…

  222. “Only a COMPLETE fool would equate a free market in a civil society, guided by rule of law, with dysfunctional Somalia.”

    When you know you don’t have the intellectual horsepower to refute the message, attack the messenger.

  223. Republicans would like nothing better than to have a dynastic plutocracy in this country with the top 1% owning all the property, no middle class and the rest working and living in poverty to be ruled by those who can afford a private education and inherit their families’ wealth.

    aislander, you repeat the far-right lie about Dairy Queen. International Dairy Queen, Inc, the entity that Buffet bought in 1998 was not a family-owned business and had not been since the 1960’s when it became publicly traded. A group of investors bought it in 1962 from the founders, took it public and served as the managers. They did own a large share of the voting stock, and family members of those investors still manage the company even under Buffet.

    One of the investors died and his children did not think the stock was performing well in the fast-growing stock market so they decided to sell their 15% which would have depressed everyone else’s stock. The managers went to Buffet who agreed to buy the parent company.

    Most of the fanchisees are family-owned businesses, and Buffet did not buy any of them.

  224. Aislander wrote: Only a COMPLETE fool would equate a free market in a civil society, guided by rule of law, with dysfunctional Somalia.”
    ___________________________________________________________

    Ehill craftily replied:When you know you don’t have the intellectual horsepower to refute the message, attack the messenger.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Referring to ehill as a fool is a general insult to fools.

  225. Sorry you felt insulted.

  226. commoncents says:

    olddoc – Agreed that there is a bookkeeping entry left behind upon the transfer of the funds from the OASDI program to the general fund. My original premise was that the excess social security money is used to fund the government just as FIT is. Do any of the programs in the general fund know or even care how much of their money is from FIT or FICA? Does it spend any different to them? No, it doesn’t.

    Oh, and the US Govt has been repaying OASDI on their special “IOU’s” for years. Yes, ultimately they turn right around and re-issue new ones but that’s only because OASDI was still running surplus. In 2011 and 2012 they stopped running a surplus and cashed in the “IOU’s” and received real money. You’re absolutely right though…there’s no guarantee on that continuing either but I contend that if the US govt fails to repay OASDI then we are effed anyways.

  227. commoncents says:

    aislander – and I look at it as money earned by the someone else and I have no right to it. If they want to give it to me then lucky me but it’s not MY money.

    I totally understand the devestating effect on small family businesses. However, the effects can be eliminated or mitigated greatly with proper estate planning. It’s only the unprepared that are done in by it.

  228. averageJose says:

    The best exemplar of that is Dairy Queen, which WAS a family business but was acquired in liquidation by that TRUE “vulture capitalist,” Warren Buffett who is a proponent of–you guessed it–the death tax…

    Now that speaks volumes!

  229. averageJose, if it were remotely true about Dairy Queen it might have a small impact, but it is a blatant far-right made up fairy tale.

    Dairy Queen was never in “liq1uidation”, it was a thriving, growing company, and that is why Buffet bought it. Everyone kept their jobs and Buffet has overseen a tremendous expansion, not a bankruptcy, firings and job deletions like Romney excels in.

    Buffet even kept the same managers of the company after he bought it.

    Buffet offered $1 more in cash than the trading price of the stock, hardly a fire sale. He also offered dollar for dollar stock trade for his own company. If DQ investors took that deal, by 2008 they would have $4,000 for every dollar they invested, and by current trading, they would have made almost $5,000 for every dollar.

    Sounds like the best of capitalism, not the “vulture” stuff that Romney does so well.

    How do I know all this? I was a Texas DQ franchisee. I sold the business to a family member who is doing quite well, thank you.

  230. aislander says:

    Certainly took e***l a long while to deliver that weak-*ss “comeback!”

    Talk about lacking “intellectual horsepower…”

  231. aislander says:

    The “fire sale” was not due to the nature of Buffett’s offer, but due to the necessity of paying the death tax. Nice try at trying to evade the point, though…

  232. “Certainly took e***l a long while to deliver that weak-*ss “comeback!”

    Sorry you consider two seconds to be “a long while.” May I suggest buying a watch?

  233. aislander says:

    Sorry. I meant your OTHER weak-*ss comeback…

    No, not THAT one: the other one.

  234. “The “fire sale” was not due to the nature of Buffett’s offer, but due to the necessity of paying the death tax”

    Lie.

    DQ was a publicly-traded company, not privately-owned, when Berkshire Hathaway bought it. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/22/business/company-news-berkshire-hathaway-plans-to-buy-dairy-queen.html

    Here’s a blog entry with references to some of DQ’s SEC filings from before the sale. http://www.whopperinvestments.com/deliberate-practice-dairy-queen-1997

  235. “No, not THAT one: the other one”

    Wow, it took you eight minutes to think that one up? Wow, you really are a bright bulb, aren’t you?

  236. aislander, show me some facts about Buffet’s purchase of DQ. You made the allegation.

    Some private investors were not happy at first because they thought the traded stock price was undervalued, but the Board of Directors agreed to the sale terms (and have praised the deal ever since. They made a bundle of profit off of it.)

    Here are the allegations you need to prove to have your comments make any sense:

    1) International DQ was a family-owned business at the time of the sale

    2)International DQ was in “liquidation” at the time of the sale (or even that it was looking to file bankruptcy).

    You won’t be able to. DQ was publically traded and was thriving.

    The records show that the family that owned 15% of the DQ stock whose father died made most of their money from their family-owned car dealership. I do not know the details of whether or not the car dealership was in liquidation, and the family wanted to sell their DQ stock to raise cash.

    However, that is not directly related to the fantasy tale you are repeating that has been debunked and proved as a calculated lie to make Buffet appear in myth as dastardly as Romney was in fact.

    You will probably just avoid posting again, like you have so many times that I have challenged you to provide proof of your right-wing lies.

  237. averageJose says:

    “when” Berkshire Hathaway bought it… kooky.

    Does Buffet still owe close to a billion in taxes?

  238. If intellectual horsepower exudes from the rear of a horse there is nodoubt that ehill can deliver in far less than two seconds.

  239. averageJose, and it had not been a family-owned private business since 1962, over 30 years. So, not even close.

  240. aislander says:

    I traced the Dairy Queen allegation back to a 2006 IBD article, which also mentioned Jordan’s Furniture, Justin Industries, Star Furniture, Borsheims Fine Jewelry, Ben Bridge Jeweler, United States Liability Insurance Group, NetJets, R.C. Willey, FlightSafety, and Nebraska Furniture Mart, as having been acquired in the same way. I have not been able to find specifics, so I will have to concede this one.

    The Buffalo News acquisition, however, is a different story.

    The other interest that Buffett has in the death tax is the necessity of substantial insurance on the lives of the principals of closely-held companies. Buffett owns such an insurance company

  241. averageJose says:

    Buffet is the perfect poster boy for progs… do as I say, not as I do.

  242. averageJose, its not just progressives with that philosophy, look at all the states led by tea partiers who take federal cash as fast as its handed out and then ask for more. Look at lyin’ Ryan who tries to hide the fact that he reaches for the federal till as fast as anyone.

*
We welcome comments. Please keep them civil, short and to the point. ALL CAPS, spam, obscene, profane, abusive and off topic comments will be deleted. Repeat offenders will be blocked. Thanks for taking part and abiding by these simple rules.

JavaScript is required to post comments.

Follow the comments on this post with RSS 2.0