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AID: ‘Handout’ can lead to prosperity

Letter by James E. Dick, Olympia on Aug. 24, 2012 at 4:53 pm with 145 Comments »
August 28, 2012 1:17 pm

I find it extremely difficult to vote for any Republican because the philosophy of the Republican Party is to destroy the programs that allowed me to become a productive member of society.

My father made only enough money to rent a $30 per month apartment and put food on the table. Seeing a doctor was a luxury that we could seldom afford, and it killed my father at 52. We ate a lot of macaroni and cheese, beans and a stew of ground beef, potatoes and whatever else was available.

My disability prohibited me from getting any type of employment. I was unable to make any money for college. However, because of my disability, the state of West Virginia paid my tuition and an allowance for books at any state college or university.

My father’s Social Security gave me $140 per month for four years as long as I remained in school. This and help from my grandfather allowed me to live at WVU, where I finished my degrees. These helped me get a job at the West Virginia Department of Highways. I moved to San Francisco and joined Chevron in late 1980 and retired to Olympia in 2003.

So the “handout” allowed me to become a contributing member of society, pay more taxes and contribute much more to Social Security than I ever would have in any menial job that I might have been able to get in my hometown.

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Leave a comment Comments → 145
  1. Take the disability away and you sound like Paul Ryan. Don’t tell me h does not appreciate the safety net; that is why he wants to make it sustainable.

  2. cargilekm says:

    Congratulations! This is the real American success story. And it wouldn’t have been possible without the help and taxes of other citizens of this great country. Too bad those fine citizens are no longer with us. All we seem to have left is the greedy tea party, neocon, birther crazies that love money more than the good of their nation.

  3. Harry_Anslinger says:

    I enjoyed your letter.

    CT I knew you’d be all over this. Predictable. I am still not so sure Ryan’s goal is ‘sustainable’. That is because I don’t just take empty campaign speak as gospel. You apparently do.

  4. averageJose says:

    Sorry Mr. Dick… your letter is based on a false premise.

    Yes, aid for the needy can lead to prosperity. It has morphed into a program to incentivise cradle to grave entitlements that ensures the survival of the democrat party.

    If only we could expect a modest amount of accountability with “handouts”.

  5. BlaineCGarver says:

    Well, Dick, there is no Tea Party or Republican that will ax your safety nets. I expect them to weed out the able bodied that sponge off the system, though.

  6. bobcat1a says:

    “I expect them to weed out the able bodied that sponge off the system, though.” Translation: In the last 44 years, Republicans have been president for 28 years and saying the same thing, but this time we REALLY MEAN IT.
    28 years republican; 16 years democrat. But it’s always the democrats who are the problem, and the only time welfare rolls were cut was under a democrat.

  7. menopaws says:

    You know what? This gentleman had something really INSPIRING to say………How did I know that average (perfect name)jose and CT8 would slash acid on someone who had something really important to say……..I keep forgetting—No one in your reality does anything but WHINE, complain and destroy other’s hopes and dreams………Thank you sir, for your letter…….Don’t let these sewer rats discourage you from your story. It was inspirational and important. JEALOUSY from those who have no dreams is not your problem. I respect your hard work and tenacity very much. You prove the American dream can be a reality with courage and hard work. What a nice way to start the weekend!!!! Hope is such a lovely gift to give.

  8. aislander says:

    So…how many times did Clinton veto welfare reform before he finally read the…er…Tealeaves?

    Still think he deserves credit for the program its creators say has been castrated by Obama?

  9. HA, what is the other side’s plan? At least with Ryan we have a starting point and proof of effort. Romney is a turnaround specialist (despite the ridiculous ads put on by the Obama camp that even Bill Clinton sees as BS).

    For the rational person the choice is very clear.

  10. LeePHill says:

    “weed out the able bodied”

    Kinda like finding all those illegal voters that they can’t seem to find, but we’re going to trash everyone else’s voting right to make sure that out FALSE PREMISE is real.

    Ryan is going to save that which is needs no saving. More of the same crap, ala mode

  11. LeePHill says:

    Menopaws – The sad part about CT and AJ is that they’ll take a real success story and scream that it is anecdotal….and in the next breath, they’ll pretend that something is wrong with voting, welfare, unemployment or any other conservative bugaboo and rant into the ground, a baseless assertion to support their ridiculous claims.

  12. itwasntmethistime says:

    This “handout” came with an ultimatum — he could only receive social security if he remained in school.

    That’s the difference with the “handout” Mr. Dick recieved and what’s going on today. He had to be accountable and responsible to continue receiving it. That’s the way it should be.

  13. sandblower says:

    aj’s comment is ridiculous in the extreme. It is a lame brain that can come up with such nonsense.

  14. Hill and cranky, his story is why it is important to save the safety net from destroying us. When so many people are collecting benefits, and still buying iPhones and new cars, something is wrong.

    They deny future generations of this author from the same benefits.

    Ryan knows from experience.

  15. Well Mr. Dick…you are the exception. I get tired of people using food stamps to buy food, then pull out cash to buy beer and tobacco products…just ticks me off every time.

  16. averageJose says:

    Such a stinging refutation sandpacker… not. ;)

  17. Fibonacci says:

    averagejose
    What are you–12?

  18. twasntmethistime
    AUG. 24, 2012 AT 8:29 PM

    Nailed it!

    I’m completely baffled by Mr. Dick’s inability to see the disconnect between his successful use of the opportunities afforded him, and the common abuse of those same opportunities today.

    But I don’t think it a mystery that the usual suspects on this forum are ignorant of that fact… most of them deliberately, I suspect.

  19. menopaws says:

    Cynical, empty people……….it’s always about arguing politics……..Guess if that is all you have in your lives it keeps you out of the bars and off the roads……When you are done chewing up a letter of courage and hope—think about why you have neither of those things……It’s easy to criticize—tough to live up to high standards and contribute to society.

  20. the common abuse of those same opportunities today.

    But I don’t think it a mystery that the usual suspects on this forum are ignorant of that fact…

    If it is “fact” then you should be able to provide concrete evidence to demonstrate that there is “common abuse”.

    While there is always fraud and mismanagement in every system (including privatized) – so that could be considered “common” Your phrase suggests that the abuse of the system is of a magnitude that is more than common.

    So….rather than citing a few anecdotes of abuse…..how about some hard numbers?

  21. If you “adults” who regularly lampoon the “do-gooders” on the Left truly want to take a business-type approach to this then you should present a cost/benefit analysis of the security net. PROVE through analysis your contention that the safety net has more cost to our society than benefit.

    Please make sure to include all variables.

  22. MyBandito says:

    One commenter talks about making the safety net sustainable, then he suggests that the safety net is destroying us and plays the welfare Cadillac card (iPhones and new cars).

    In Righty speak, ‘making it sustainable’ means, diluting the safety nets (including Social Security and Medicare) so badly that there’s little if anything left to do any good.

    James- Thank you for pointing out that a handout can, and often does, lift one out of poverty and into a prosperous lifestyle. Your prosperity provides the taxpayers a handsome return on our money.

  23. tree_guy says:

    “the philosophy of the Republican Party is to destroy the programs (Social Security) that allowed me to become a productive member of society.” James Dick

    Read more here: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2012/08/24/i-do-take-it-personally-2/#comments#storylink=cpy

    I notice that Mr. Dick didn’t actually provide any evidence that the philosophy of the Republican Party is to “destroy Social Security.”

  24. averageJose says:

    Gosh, I agreed with the letter writer generally, just not the false premise scare tactic.

  25. you should be able to provide concrete evidence to demonstrate that there is “common abuse”.

    bB, for real?

    See, this is why it’s impossible to have a discussion with liberals like bB, about addressing systemic problems in government – they are simply, conveniently, in denial of the obvious.

    But I love how you then go on to not only move the goal posts, but to completely reinterpret what I said – more specifically one word:

    Your phrase suggests that the abuse of the system is of a magnitude that is more than common.

    Really? Let’s see… how could one extrapolate to derive such a conclusion from an innocuous comment like the following:
    “I’m completely baffled by Mr. Dick’s inability to see the disconnect between his successful use of the opportunities afforded him, and the common abuse of those same opportunities today.”

    I can just as easily proclaim that your statement suggests abuse of the system is non-existent – a rarity at best, then challenge you to prove it based on what I’ve derived… what I perceive you comment to imply.

    You know very well, bB, that with the click of the return key I can provide examples, numbers, studies, findings, and cases of fraud – from providers through recipients of – abuse of social services. That would make “common” abuse an accepted term.

    But if you can provide evidence to the contrary, then you’re welcomed to waste another waning-summer’s day proving to yourself that you’re right.

  26. While you were eating mac-and-cheese my family was eating hamburger helper, beans and popcorn. I couldn’t attend college; I had a family to support. When I left the military I worked two jobs, my wife one and the kids worked when they came of age. I didn’t have time to attend college.

    When I finally had the time to improve my education I found that I fell into a niche that locked me out of GI bill funds . . .
    I attended ’till I could no longer afford it and left with half a degree.

    My family’s taxes paid for the education that set you free. Your taxes are now paying for social security that keeps me off the streets.

    James, I thank you for being productive and helping push the cart that is America instead of riding in it, but I do not understand your inability to see America can not be sustained under the current policies of borrowing and spending . . .

    You James, of all people, should vote for people who want to preserve the economy of a great country that looked after you so well . . .

  27. BeerBoy wrote: If it is “fact” then you should be able to provide concrete evidence to demonstrate that there is “common abuse”.

    While there is always fraud and mismanagement in every system (including privatized) – so that could be considered “common” Your phrase suggests that the abuse of the system is of a magnitude that is more than common.

    So….rather than citing a few anecdotes of abuse…..how about some hard numbers?
    _________________________________________________

    Another large government run program recently had its funding reduced
    by $719 billion over ten years or $71.2 billion per year. Medicare/Medicaid outlays are roughly $992 billion per year so a funding cut of $71.2 billion equates to a 7.5% reduction due to WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE. Since many more people are actively envolved in the many and various welfare systems it would seem logical that WFA activity would at least equal 7.5%.

    What percentage of WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE within the welfare system does it take before one is willing to admit that WFA is “common”? Isn’t 7.5% enough? Did anyone ask the Obama administration how it arrived at a $719 billion Medicare/Medicaid reduction. Could it have been that 7.5% was considered good enough for government work? Obama’s Auntie Zeituni appears to be doing quite well on the welfare program and even expresses the notion that it is her right.

    While Mr. Dick’s personal story may have been somewhat normal for those born in the 30’s, it certainly does not typify welfare as we know it today. The comparison is just not there!

  28. alindasue says:

    oldoc,

    You cite numbers – although I don’t see how the program’s funding being reduced is in itself evidence of “WFA” – but you don’t cite where that 7.5% waste, fraud, and abuse figure comes from. Would you please link tho your source so I can see how you arrived at your figures? I’m having trouble following your logic the way you stated it.

    Thanks.

  29. LeePHill says:

    Medicare is an insurance policy.

    Would you rather have a for-profit company hike the CDB and still have fraud and abuse? If those for-profit medical providers would stop committing fraud – illegal billing – the numbers would drop substantially.

    Again, the cons would like you to believe it’s the end user who is committing fraud…..not even close….it’s the practices.

  30. LeePHill says:

    ” notice that Mr. Dick didn’t actually provide any evidence that the philosophy of the Republican Party is to “destroy Social Security.”

    Someone hasn’t paid attention for 50 years or more.

    If you think “privatization” wouldn’t destroy Social Security, see “September 2008 Stock Market”

  31. LeePHill says:

    “When so many people are collecting benefits, and still buying iPhones and new cars, something is wrong.” – CT

    Thanks for proving my point. Like I said, we have a letter writer who testifies to success of social programs, and then CT makes up a lie.

  32. the3rdpigshouse says:

    A physical or mental handicap that prevents one from earning their own way is recognized as someone who needs assistance! The capable citizens who are too lazy to do anything productive or work if they can remain on the public dole is not an acceptable substitute for a handicap!!! Work and earn or starve!

  33. LeePHill says:

    “Work and earn or starve!”

    Sounds like one of those “third world counties” that the cons love to talk about.

  34. hansgruber says:

    I ate lots of Mac & Cheese when I was in college too. I lived at mother’s & grandmother’s house while I went to college and got a great job! The “handout” I recieved was free room & board at my relatives as long as I stayed in college. I worked part-time and earned enough to pay for my books & tutition and personal expences (Car, Insurance, ect…).

    So my “handout” worked too and it didn’t cost the goverement any tax revenue on my behalf that it wasn’t already spending.

    My degree has my name on it because I earned it, it doesn’t have somebody elses name.

  35. LeePHill says:

    ” I worked part-time and earned enough to pay for my books & tutition and personal expences (Car, Insurance, ect…).”

    Yeah…so did I…in the 1960s-1970s.

    Unfortunately college costs have skyrocketed and there are no jobs because the conservatives have outsourced them.

    How about living in the real world? Today’s world.

  36. “the conservatives have outsourced them”

    Apple is known as a conservative company? GE?

    Here is Jobs expalining to BHO why he cannot manufacture here

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203687504577003763659779448.html

    Nice thread shift from entitlements, the hallmark of liberalism.

    The key term people keep repeating is “work”. With youth unemployment (especially minority) at record highs (Pelosi gets credit for jacking up min wage), work is an unknown concept to today’s students.

  37. State and community colleges are still very affordable. And mosts students get some form of aid.

    Welcome to today’s world.

  38. most

  39. hansgruber says:

    Wow LeePHill, you are way older than me!

  40. hansgruber says:

    And BTW LeePHill, if college was so cheap back in the 60’s & 70’s, why did California Governor Ronald Reagan order all the public universities to close because of the student protesting the hike in tuition among other things?
    http://www.salem-news.com/articles/january072012/orange-disneyesque-tb.php

  41. LeePHill says:

    “CT8 says:
    Aug. 25, 2012 at 11:38 am State and community colleges are still very affordable. And mosts students get some form of aid.”

    Oh…so you DO endorse the government picking up part of the tab for education?

    University of Washington (state supported) full time, one quarter TUITION (not including books or room and board if you need it)

    $4,121.00 x 3 quarters = $12,363 per year (plus books, etc)

    yeah…very affordable.

    Fulltime job, year around, minimum wage – $18,803 GROSS

    So if a student can work fulltime, and study, they might make enough money to eat and live, if they get AID.

    I always love it when cons make baseless assertions and the information to debunk their ignorance is 5 minutes of research on the internet.

  42. Another large government run program recently had its funding reduced
    by $719 billion over ten years or $71.2 billion per year. Medicare/Medicaid outlays are roughly $992 billion per year so a funding cut of $71.2 billion equates to a 7.5% reduction due to WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE.

    WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!! Is olddoc supporting Obama here? Cuz that is what they have been saying – that the $719 billion in “cuts” were to get rid of waste, not an actual cut to the programs.

  43. LeePHill says:

    hans….because state schools were free prior to Reagan’s hike.

    Yes…you are much younger than me. So young you don’t know the history of issues and I’m questioning the value of your “degree”.

    ———————————
    “Nice thread shift from entitlements”

    What’s an “entitlement”? The hallmark of conservatism is to mislable.

  44. LeePHill says:

    beerBoy…I think oldoc was trying to say that the Cadillac Welfare Queens run up the cost of Medicare, as opposed to the for-profit practitioners who file fraudulent claims.

  45. so…Clamat0….your answer is no then?

    I note when I ask for hard data you say that its obvious or that the conservatives can’t get a fair analysis or…..anything but hard data.

    Just like the University Administrators who keep saying “business model”, when it comes right down to it, none of the changes being proposed are ever supported by such basic things as cost/benefit analysis or needs assessment.

  46. LeePHill says:

    CT – I’m really sorry you can’t follow the thread through all of the issues of the costs of living when pursuing an education. Lack of jobs is a contributor….but you already know that, don’t you?

  47. SwordofPerseus says:

    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” ~ John Steinbeck

    The necessity of a social “safety net” is undeniable by anyone with common sense. The self “made man” is common myth in America and has done a great deal of damage to the mental health of many of our citizens to the point which they deny the needs of the poor. I believe that we should behave more like team players rather than the lone marathon runner.

    Most American would be better off if they embraced the mixed economy form of socialism practiced in countries like Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway to name a few.

    However, seduced by the delusion they may one day be wealthy, most Americans lay themselves open to a life of uncertainty and exploitation by the rich and powerful where the loss of only a few paychecks means a descent into poverty or worse. :-(

  48. If the Ryan proposal is to save Medicare, and the huge numbers of Baby Boomers going into retirement is seen as a major problem for Medicare funding – could someone explain by the Ryan plan makes sure that the vast majority of Baby Boomers will receive Medicare benefits as they currently exist?

    I mean….the Baby Boomers are the biggest issue here and Ryan/Romney are pleased to announce that anyone born before 1957 is going to keep “sucking at the teat”.

  49. hansgruber says:

    LeePHill-You obviously did not attend school in California and you missed, forgot or ignored this part:”….. Tuition at the University of California had reached $600.00 per year or 364 minimum wage hours. Tuition at the California State Colleges was $140.00 per year or 85 minimum wage hours”

    I remember it because my mother came home crying because Gov Reagan closed the San Diego State campus she was attending and she was supposed to graduate that semester.

  50. LeePHill says:

    Hans…what does the Salem (MA) News have to do with California college tuition?

    http://www.newfoundations.com/Clabaugh/CuttingEdge/Reagan.html

    “What is Mr. Reagan’s educational legacy? Let’s begin with a look at his record as governor of California. While running for the governorship, Mr. Reagan shrewdly made the most of disorder on University of California campuses. For instance, he demanded a legislative investigation of alleged Communism and sexual misconduct at the University of California at Berkeley. He insisted on public hearings, claiming “a small minority of hippies, radicals and filthy speech advocates” had caused disorder and that they should “be taken by the scruff of the neck and thrown off campus — permanently”,[1]

    Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:

    a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students

  51. LeePHill says:

    Hans…if you “remember”….your mother must have been a “mature” student.

    Hyperbole much?

  52. hansgruber says:

    LeeePHill- How dare you call my mother old!

    As you my “remember” Reagan was elcted in 1966, did all of these horrible things to the California Univeristy System including ordering them closed in 1970 and guess what?

    Reagan got re-elected!

    Why?

    The majority of the people agreed with him on students having to help pay for their education, kicking hippies, radicl and filty speech advocates off campus and investigated the state flagship campus in Berkely for Communisim & sexual abuse.

    Besides, who cares about paying student loans since the current admin is handing them out like middle schools and high schools are handing out condoms to the students these days!

    Hyperbole much?

  53. He just made it personal since he was out of rational, fact based arguments. Similar to the race card

  54. averageJose says:

    “James, I thank you for being productive and helping push the cart that is America instead of riding in it, but I do not understand your inability to see America can not be sustained under the current policies of borrowing and spending . . .
    You James, of all people, should vote for people who want to preserve the economy of a great country that looked after you so well . . . ”

    Amen. To the point and on topic!

  55. so…Clamat0….your answer is no then?

    Hmm… actually, I believe that’s your answer.

    I note when I ask for hard data you say that its obvious or that the conservatives can’t get a fair analysis or…..anything but hard data.

    So… you deny abuse of social programs is a common problem? Kindly recall it was you who decided to put words in my mouth by changing “common” to “more than common”. That’s an extraordinary leap, bB. And please, spare us the imperious approach – you are fully aware that isn’t what I said.

    While the Riverside case involves public employees accused of stealing taxpayer funds, fraud by parents who receive CalWorks money is likely more common, according to the Senate report.

    What? Did they say “common”? Musta’ meant “more than common”.

    http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/01/09/calworks-fraud-case-exposes-lack-of-state-controls/

  56. LStrong206 says:

    If the Democrats have their way, we will be bankrupt shortly and have no services. At least Ryan is attempting to save the SS program.

  57. the3rdpigshouse says:

    FYI for the leftists – outsourcing is the result of laws created by the U.S. Congress – not the President!! Congress (both parties) have screwed the middle class with their changes to the tax laws and export/import laws that have facilitated the outsourcing!!

  58. lylelaws says:

    James,

    Thanks for sharing your story.

    Unless I misread your letter, I think you received a hand-up rather than a “Handout”.

    I see a handout as something given to people who are often not willing to help themselves, while a hand-up is given to those who are willing to work to improve their lives.

  59. “Romney is a turnaround specialist”

    He certainly is. He turned around from supporting individual mandates to opposing them. He turned around from supporting a woman’s right to choose to opposing it. He turned around on the minimum wage. He turned around on his desire to serve in Vietnam. he turned around on his support for Ronald Reagan. he turned around on signing the no-tax pledge. He turned around on global warming. he turned around on the assault rifle ban. He turned around on immigration. He turned around on the Bush tax cuts. He turned around on same sex marriage. He turned around on embryonic stem cell research.

    Yep, he is quite the turnaround specialist.

  60. “he wants to make it sustainable”

    It’s like Vietnam all over again – he wants to destroy the safety net in order to save it.

  61. “What percentage of WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE within the welfare system does it take before one is willing to admit that WFA is “common”?”

    Right now, about 3,300 of those adults participating in this state’s Work First (“welfare”) program are under sanction for not working, seeking work, or obtaining training or education to become employable. “Sanction” means they’ve had their benefits cut. Continued failure to meet the program requirements results in termination. The state publishes this information monthly. http://www.workfirst.wa.gov/performance/measures/WorkFirstChartsMay2012.pdf

  62. By the way, those 3,300 adults represent less than 10% of the total welfare recipients in this state.

  63. “outsourcing is the result of laws created by the U.S. Congress – not the President!!

    1. You mean the President doesn’t sign those laws?

    2. Why does the GOP oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?

  64. AlindaSue asked: oldoc, You cite numbers – although I don’t see how the program’s funding being reduced is in itself evidence of “WFA” – but you don’t cite where that 7.5% waste, fraud, and abuse figure comes from. Would you please link tho your source so I can see how you arrived at your figures? I’m having trouble following your logic the way you stated it.

    Thanks.
    _______________________________________________________

    %71.2 billion (annual funding reduction in the Medicare/Medicaid programs required by the Affordable Health Care Act) divided by the $992 billion (Medicare/Medicaid annual outlays—google medicare/medicaid annual cost)= 7.5%. The Obama administration based their cut of medicare/medicaid funding on the amount that was attributed to WASTe, FRAUD and ABUSE…..so it appears that 7.5% is a reasonable figure.

    It would seem logical to conclude that programs comprising the huge US welfare system would be subject to at least the same degree of WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE as Medicare/Medicaid.

    My contention is merely that 7.5% WFA is common and should be addressed immediately! Hope that helps Linda Sue.

  65. I repeat the question:

    Why does the GOP oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?

  66. GHTaxPayer says:

    ALL Congressmembers – Democrat and Republican, voted AGAINST Obama’s budget with his bogus “end to tax write-offs”. Because it would have added another $15 Trillion in deficits over the next 10 years.

    More hollow disinformation from the liberals of Tacoma.

  67. Because we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, already making us unfriendly to business. Because global manufacturing is a common part of doing business. The bigger question is why do the left make doing business in America so painful?

    That line from BHO is pure rhetoric, not founded on economic or reality. When he had both houses, why didn’t he ask Nancy and Harry to act on it? Because there is no way he is going hammer companies like Apple, GM, and GE. Think about it, that gift of $50bil to Govt Motors would go away. Proof positive he was just telling you what you want to hear, not facts, reality, or the truth.

    Shame on him and shame on you for believing it.

  68. took14theteam says:

    Trouble sleeping last night ehill?

  69. ErnestTBass says:

    “If you voted for President Obama to prove to yourself and others that you’re not a racist,then you’ll have to vote for someone else in 2012 to prove you’re not an idiot.” Unknown! http://obamasrealfather.com/

  70. LeePHill says:

    “LeeePHill- How dare you call my mother old!
    As you my “remember” Reagan was elcted in 1966, did all of these horrible things to the California Univeristy System including ordering them closed in 1970 and guess what? and guess what?
    Reagan got re-elected!”

    Another one who didn’t major in math.

    First of all, you claim:

    hansgruber says:
    Aug. 25, 2012 at 11:54 am Wow LeePHill, you are way older than me!

    which made me think you are at least as young as my oldest son – born in 1972, when I was all of 21. Now, mind you my son’s memory probably didn’t kick in until about 4 or 5 years old (in terms of today’s memories)

    Now you claim to remember Reagan in office in 1970? Thus you were born in 1965 or so????

    Oh…and any mother that can leave a child at home and go to college is a “mature” student.

    But then I read this:

    The majority of the people agreed with him on students having to help pay for their education, kicking hippies, radicl and filty speech advocates off campus and investigated the state flagship campus in Berkely for Communisim & sexual abuse.

    And I realize that you know nothing of the times and are just regurgitating today’s right wing pablum because anyone old enough to remember the 60s-70s KNOWS that Reagan was elected and re-elected on name familiarity…much like Arnold Schwarznegger.

    Despite an unsuccessful attempt to recall him in 1968,[87] Reagan was re-elected in 1970, defeating “Big Daddy” Jesse Unruh.

    Nice bluff, Hans, but your math failed or you lied about being much younger than me.

  71. LeePHill says:

    Another CT8 baseless assertion now debunked:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/09/11/slideshow-world-corporate-tax-rates-from-lowest-to-highest/

    How do tax write offs create deficit?????

    “The more money I put in the bank, the less money I have”??????

    You have to love how the CONS do math.

  72. averageJose says:

    1. You mean the President doesn’t sign those laws?
    Yes, Clinton signed NAFTA into law.

    2. Why does the GOP oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?
    They do? Where did you get that?

  73. LeePHill says:

    Shame on CT for creating such a falsehood.

    Forbes says: “In fact, while U.S. corporations (and many supporting politicians) argue that American tax rates are too high, the average U.S. corporate income tax is just one percentage point below the median effective rate of their peers in the Organization For Economic Cooperation and Development, OECD.”

  74. LeePHill says:

    “GHTaxPayer says:
    Aug. 26, 2012 at 7:20 am ALL Congressmembers – Democrat and Republican, voted AGAINST Obama’s budget with his bogus “end to tax write-offs”. Because it would have added another $15 Trillion in deficits over the next 10 years.”

    Ask GHTax where he got it……

  75. LeePHill says:

    The film begins by presenting the case that Barack Obama’s real father was Frank Marshall Davis, a Communist Party USA propagandist who likely shaped Obama’s world view during his formative years. Barack Obama sold himself to America as the multi-cultural ideal, a man who stood above politics. Was the goat herding Kenyan father only a fairy tale to obscure a Marxist agenda, irreconcilable with American values?

    Well now, Ernie….I guess Obama made a total fool of Trump and the rest of the Birther movement.

    Make up what is left of your collective minds…..LOL

  76. http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/27/pf/taxes/corporate-taxes/index.htm

    Yup, highest tax rate. Now you moved the goalposts and want to talk effective rates. OK, so they are average EFFECTIVELY. In reality, that means companies have to spend billions on lawyers, accountants and lobbyists to get their tax rate down. Can a small business do that? Why do you and BHO find it acceptable?

    It leads to huge amounts of profits stashed overseas. You are trying to polish a turd.

  77. from the linked article

    It would have provided a 20 percent tax credit to companies that move production back to the United States. It also would end a tax break that companies can claim when closing a domestic plant, even if operations are moving abroad.

  78. “Democrat and Republican, voted AGAINST Obama’s budget with his bogus “end to tax write-offs”

    BZZZZZZT. Falsehood alert. The ending of tax subsidies for outsourcing was a separate bill as BeerBoy has correctly pointed out.

  79. “Yes, Clinton signed NAFTA into law.”

    And on the other hand: ““outsourcing is the result of laws created by the U.S. Congress – not the President!!”

    So which is it?

  80. “you moved the goalposts and want to talk effective rates.”

    And yet you wrong-wingers have no problem claiming that few paid the high tax rates in the 1950’s. Did you move the goalposts?

  81. So which is it?

    In the partisan “conservative” world that’s easy –

    When it is a Democratic-controlled Congress with a Republican President it is Congress’ fault.

    When it is a Republican-controlled Congress with a Democratic President it is the President’s fault.

    When it is a Republican-controlled Congress with a Republican President the fault may be the Democratic-controlled Congress or the Democratic President that either preceded or followed the Republican Congress and President.

  82. That actually would be “effective rates”.

    Affect/Effect are a little tricky.

  83. Bb, what have we heard from this admin? Ignore all pundits and blog posts, who has BHO claimed is responsible for every challenge? Who does he credit to for the meager recovery?

    Either the House and minority senate are the problem or they get credit for every job since Pelosi got the boot.

    I think the biggest problem is people buy into the fact that pols has such a great command over the economy. Current admin is guilty as charged. What they can do is set conditions. Slamming massive regulations on top of a weak economy would be an example of NOT setting favorable conditions.

    When you and your fellow liberals start giving Newt credit for Clinton’s budget, there will be progress in the tone.

  84. averageJose says:

    Kooky, I read the Reuters piece (didn’t reuters get in trouble for photo shopping some pictures a while back to make it appear Israel was bombing civilians… or something like that?)and couldn’t find where it said anything about the bill being defeated because “republicans oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?”

    The other kooky part is how you keep initiating conversation with me and then claim I am following you.

  85. averageJose says:

    No kidding CT8.

  86. I wrote: Another large government run program recently had its funding reduced by $719 billion over ten years or $71.2 billion per year. Medicare/Medicaid outlays are roughly $992 billion per year so a funding cut of $71.2 billion equates to a 7.5% reduction due to WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE.
    _______________________________________________________

    BeerBoy opines: WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!! Is olddoc supporting Obama here? Cuz that is what they have been saying – that the $719 billion in “cuts” were to get rid of waste, not an actual cut to the programs.
    _______________________________________________________

    If Obama contends that there is WASTE, FRAUD and ABUSE in all government run programs then I would most certainly agree with him. It is difficult though to understand how one can “save” money by confronting WFA in one government program when the purpose is simply to apply those “savings” to another government program. This is particularly troublesome when the program supplying the “savings” is already living on borrowed time and the new program will doubtless follow the same pattern. When a program can no longer support itself how can WFA savings continue to fund another program? WOW…the logic of such an approach to economics is baffling.

    Medicare/Medicaid have been around for quite some time now. Is Obama really the first to discover that 7.5% of our money has been wasted year after year? The entire charade is simply another political shell game to create another government give-away that will bleed red ink far, far into the future. Doubtless, some wild-eyed liberal down the road will use the WFA created by the Affordable Care Act to fund but another government run social financial fiasco. Will responsible financial stewardship ever again be a part of government? Probably not!

    _____________________________________________________

  87. nwcolorist says:

    “Why does the GOP oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?”

    he answer is quite simple. In today’s global economy companies must stay competitive or die. Expenses must be trimmed, and since labor costs are one of the major expenses, that is a logical place to cut.

    If the labor unions would work with management and agree to reduce wages and benefits, management would work with them. But since they won’t, the next option is to contract with less expensive workers.

  88. “When you and your fellow liberals start giving Newt credit for Clinton’s budget”

    When Newt deserves the credit, he’ll get it. The budgets, as proposed by the White House, and as passed by Congress are available online. Guess what they show?

    1. Clinton proposed budgets containing surpluses – before Congress touched them.
    2. The budgets as passed by Congress contained more spending then Clinton requested.

    Facts. They trump wrong-wing bloviation every time.

  89. “I read the Reuters piece [gratuitous "attack the messenger" bloviation removed] and couldn’t find where it said anything about the bill being defeated because “republicans oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?”

    For the uninformed:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/19/us-usa-congress-jobs-idUSBRE86I1LJ20120719

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/politics/senate-bring-jobs-home-bill-blocked/index.html

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20118915-503544.html

  90. http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/no-bill-clinton-didnt-balance-budget

    Social spending increased, military spending decreased (peace dividend, ignoring threats from the ME) and the tech bubble gave off enormous tax revenues.

    And since we are passing around blame/credit

    http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/10/20081009-10.html

  91. Try using the actual budgets instead of a wrong-wing opinion piece.

  92. Trueblue22 says:

    James-
    When you were forced to eat “Mac and Cheese?” Are you for real? I have a two steady jobs AND I still rely on Mac and Cheese (and Top Ramen) to get by….AND I have never had to take a handout from the government! You are SOoooo out of touch!

  93. averageJose says:

    Jr., highlight where it stated “republicans oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs?”

    Thanks in advance.

    http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

  94. James, I find it impossible to vote for a Democrat. I never have and I’m not about to start now.

  95. “highlight where it stated “republicans oppose the President’s proposal to end tax write-offs for companies that outsource their jobs”

    Reuters: “The measure was stopped dead in its tracks when Senate Republicans blocked it from being debated.”

    CNN: “Senate Republicans on Thursday blocked the No.1 item on the president’s congressional “to-do-list,” refusing to allow a vote on a bill that would give tax breaks for companies that “insource” jobs to the U.S. from overseas while eliminating tax deductions for companies that move jobs abroad.”

    CBS: “Senate Republicans blocked President Obama’s $447 billion jobs package on Tuesday, putting the brakes on a bill Mr. Obama has been vigorously promoting over the past month.”

    Guess you missed those. Or you didn’t bother to read the articles at all. Or you somehow mistakenly think the GOP blocked something that they actually supported.

  96. Since Clinton era budgets are a thing of the distant past, it is irrelevant.

  97. Yes, I admitting a research defeat. Since then the entitlements have grown, 9-11 happened, and our revenues have shrunk.

  98. From Reuters:

    The partisan vote was one more instance of Democrats and Republicans in Congress offering up measures they know will not pass but can be used to fire up their respective supporters in the run-up to November’s elections.

    Ohhhhh, that’s what it was all about!

    A coalition of U.S. business groups, including the Business Roundtable, National Association of Manufacturers and U.S. Chamber of Commerce, called on Thursday for the bill’s defeat, saying it would have the “unintended consequence” of making it harder for companies to compete in world markets.

    But… But… a 20% tax cut? Well, ya’ think these business organizations are cutting off their collective noses to spite their faces? Or is the devil in the details. Think they may know a bit more about “world markets” than bB, mole.hill, and peeHill?

    Naaaa. Gotta’ be the nose thing.

    Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell complained that Democrats were denying his party the opportunity to amend the bill. And Senator Orrin Hatch, the senior Republican on the tax-writing Senate Finance Committee, dismissed the measure as a talking point for President Barack Obama’s re-election campaign.

    Talking point? No one here would spew left wing talking points… would they?

  99. LeePHill says:

    I don’t know which is funnier – watching CT say “Huffpo” not realizing who the owner is…..quoting CATO not knowing that they are a right wing propaganda tank or watching him try to play with “effective”….

  100. LeePHill says:

    “Since then the entitlements have grown”

    What’s an entitlement? People keep using the word over and over and don’t know the definition.

  101. computer1015 says:

    …the answer is quite simple. In today’s global economy companies must stay competitive or die. Expenses must be trimmed, and since labor costs are one of the major expenses, that is a logical place to cut.

    Is that why corporate executives are paid 300-400 times higher than the average worker? So the corporation can be competitive. Not to mention that most of their compensation is paid in the future, i.e. tax-deferred.

    Also, why is the term “entitlement” only applied to programs for poor people who need help from the government? Many corporations and wealthy individuals seem to feel entitled to tax breaks. Several highly profitable corporations have not paid Federal income for several years and have even received refunds.

    I hope everyone here will see the documentary “Heist-Who Stole the American Dream” when it comes to the Grand in September.

  102. Ah, dad steps in.

    You really need a definition of entitlement? How about this- any payment to an individual not employed by the govt.

    SNAP, EBT, TANF, SS, medicare, Medicaid, section 8, etc.

  103. normajean says:

    I personally like what Black Lewis had to say about the dems & Rep. “2 bowls of sh..t that smell different”
    Time for a major change

  104. computer1015 says:

    CT8 – One of the many things that are well-known about the right-wingers is that they use their opinion/agenda as facts.

    You are ENTITLED to your opinion, but not your facts.

    ;-0

  105. aislander says:

    I find myself agreeing with LPG: nobody is “entitled” to the earnings of somebody else.

    Bad choice of word. How about “coerced charity?”

  106. sandblower says:

    First of all, the word entitlement is a word choice I would not make. It has a built in connotation that the benefit is unearned or undeserved and undeserved is where the right wingnuts come down on it. The fact that most benefits are there to help people who are in a difficult situation whether it is justified or not does not enter into the discussion for the wingnuts. They simply apply their punitive criteria to all circumstances. It is the idiocy of conservativism that allows for such ignorance.
    Other than that, I have no strong opinion.

  107. Blower, you just pointed out it is charity. And given our debt and defecit, most of it has not been been paid for.

    Also, on a base level, you are taking one man’s money he earned and giving it to another. You have no issue with that? What do you call it?

  108. deficit,

  109. sandblower says:

    I call it helping your fellow Americans. It may be you one day.

  110. sandblower says:

    We need a 50% rate for adjusted gross incomes above 200K or there about. We need a significantly higher rate for significantly higher adjusted gross incomes. No exclusions for capital gains. We need a means test for Social Security and for Medicare. We need to remove the limiting income for Social Security – Medicare deductions. Our military expenditures should not exceed the expenditures of any two threat nations, or something like that.
    Any business that pollutes the environment under the conditions we now know cause pollution will be held accountable and will contribute in advance to a pollution remediation account.
    Let’s begin with that.

  111. So you want a more progressive tax code? 50% pay zero federal income tax, illegals are getting checks, and the top bracket already pays for the bulk of our federal spending.

    Why not focus on raising the incomes of the middle class, unlike BHO? Why shouldn’t everyone pay for our defense? What would your policies do to motivate citizens?

  112. computer1015 says:

    Perhaps if the conservatives will agree to pay for the waste, fraud and overcharging by the Defense Dept contractors, the unfunded wars, the military bases all over the world, and their opinion that we are the policeman for the world, then, if there’s anything left over, we can agree to help relieve some of the poverty in THIS country.
    Or is that asking too much?

  113. averageJose says:

    Thanks Clamato. Some people make incorrect inferences to suit their bias. Jr. does it often.

    They opposed the bill Barry was promoting because the dems wouldn’t allow amendments and because as written it would have made it even harder for American companies to compete globally.

    :D

  114. averageJose says:

    computer1015, if Barry gets his way you will actually start to see apples to apples comparision of what poverty looks like here compared to other countries. You do know he loathes the fact that we are the wealthiest most prosperous country in the world and he did promise to “fundamentally change” the USA.

  115. SNAP, EBT, TANF, SS, medicare, Medicaid, section 8, etc.

    The fact that you include Medicare and SS in the above list demonstrates that you really have a skewed perspective about those two programs that you have to pay into in order to receive.

  116. LeePHill says:

    “50% pay zero federal income tax, illegals are getting checks,”

    It’s always nice to be reminded (about once a day) that 50% of Americans don’t make enough money to pay income tax.

    What “illegals” are getting “checks”?

  117. Clamat0 – by law, publicly traded corporations MUST put increasing share value and dividends above all other considerations INCLUDING benefits to our nation’s economy and jobs creation. And, you do realize that the reality of international trade is there really are no borders when it comes to corporate interests.

    So….if you are interested in Corporate benefits more than you are interested in getting the US economy on track – by all means – be like the Republican Senators and block a bill intended to support the US economy and jobs creation.

  118. Speaking of foreign interests – it appears that the Romney campaign has broken the felony laws upheld by the Supreme Court by taking large contributions from foreigners.

  119. LeePHill says:

    “You really need a definition of entitlement? How about this- any payment to an individual not employed by the govt.
    SNAP, EBT, TANF, SS, medicare, Medicaid, section 8, etc”

    Well…like I said (not what aislander says I said)….people don’t know what they are talking about.

    Medicare and Social Security are insurance policies, thus they are no more entitlements than a New York Life policy that you paid into for your entire adult life.

    Now the other programs….you are entitled to…..IF…..you are starving and homeless. If the “wealthiest country in the world” can’t afford to feed, clothe and house our less fortunate, should we just turn them loose on the streets to beg like the “third world counties”?

    I find it an honor to be a part of an American system that helps each other. I do not begrudge paying taxes, as I endorse the Constitution of the United States, which defines taxation and makes it legal.

    Those who dishonor America by not honoring the Constitution or complains about our taxes helping the less fortunate, should remember we are the UNITED States, not the “I, Me, Mine States”.

  120. LeePHill says:

    “if Barry gets his way you will actually start to see apples to apples comparision of what poverty looks like here compared to other countries.”

    Ah yes….fearmongering. Remember this gem?

    “If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we’ll get hit again — that we’ll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States,” Cheney said.

    I do believe that the fearmongering of 2008 was “socialism” to which the stock market has doubled since the “socialist candidate” was sworn in.

    I’m so glad that the majority of Americans are not stupid enough to buy into this kind of campaigning.

  121. LeePHill says:

    “aislander says:
    Aug. 26, 2012 at 7:19 pm I find myself agreeing with LPG: nobody is “entitled” to the earnings of somebody else.”

    Only one problem. I didn’t say that. What I did say was this:

    “LeePHill says:
    Aug. 26, 2012 at 6:29 pm “Since then the entitlements have grown”
    What’s an entitlement? People keep using the word over and over and don’t know the definition.”

    I’m glad to see aislander agrees that people keep using the word over and over and don’t know the definition.

    On the other hand, I’m taking up a collection for reading lessons for some of our conservatives. They seem to have difficulty with direct quotes. Proof positive – the constantly misquote the President.

  122. Clamat0 – by law, publicly traded corporations MUST put increasing share value and dividends above all other considerations…

    Agreed, bB, but the problem with your retort is that the Business Roundtable, National Association of Manufacturers and U.S. Chamber of Commerce are not “publicly traded corporations”. So what’s your point?

    … INCLUDING benefits to our nation’s economy and jobs creation.

    Ohh, that’s it! Yeah… they want our economy to tank… or, at least, they don’t care. Now why did that not occur to me?

    So….if you are interested in Corporate benefits more than you are interested in getting the US economy on track…

    Uh, no, I’m simply not interested in using the subject of international business practice as another mortar shell in the democrat class warfare political/ reelection game. And neither are conservatives in the Senate. They didn’t bite – they weren’t expected to bite (by democrat leadership and the 0bama reelection campaign), thus the talking point, thus the parrots in this aviary get another non-issue to squawk about… or whatever it is good little parrots do.

  123. Speaking of foreign interests – it appears that the Romney campaign has broken the felony laws upheld by the Supreme Court by taking large contributions from foreigners.

    Uh-hum, with apologies to Jim; allow me to quote a well known contributor, here, on another thread (addressing me):

    Boldly quoting without citations to your sources so I can’t fact check.

    To which I replied (extreme irony to follow – reader discretion is advised):

    “If I were posting obscure, hard to find, probably cherry-picked and out of context claims… you know, like a few lefties here are often wont to do (citation needed), then a link would always be in order.”

    I would say your latest claim of a Romney… uh-humph, “felony” qualifies as needing a link.

  124. LeePHill says:

    “the Business Roundtable, National Association of Manufacturers and U.S. Chamber of Commerce”

    One of the above is a group of CEOs. Another is really a non-profit designed to carry Republican water (they tried to recruit me because I have a business license). Seeing them oppose taxes is like seeing the Jews oppose Islam – no surprise.

    The NAM is an interesting group to join in with the other two. Seeing that manufacturing is rapidly becoming anything BUT “national” (unless you are including other nations), I find it ironic that NAM would support organizations that love the idea of sending our jobs overseas.

  125. LeePHill says:

    Although I’m not really a part of the dance, here is a link to further explain Romney’s possible felony:

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/08/14/romney-broke-the-law-by-raising-money-from-foreign-donors-should-he-be-disqualified/

  126. No, SS and Medicare are not like a private plan. Those private companies ensure the amount one pays in, ON AVERAGE, is equal or greater than benefits received. What makes those an entitlement is that current beneficiaries take out more than they personally placed into the system. They are getting someone else’s wealth.

    You know this.

    Starving and homeless? 1 in 7(I might be lowballing it) get a non SS or Medicare benefit. Come back to reality.

  127. he Business Roundtable, National Association of Manufacturers and U.S. Chamber of Commerce are not “publicly traded corporations”.

    You are correct – they are not for profit organizations that represent the interests of publicly traded corporations.

  128. Here’s the S.C. ruling
    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/supreme-court-retains-ban-on-foreign-campaign-donations/

    Give me a little time to find the links to foreign donations to his campaign.

  129. I don’t know about the other two orgs but I have read that U.S. Chamber of Commerce collects money from other international Chambers of Commerce – they claim that none of the money they spend on anti-Obama ads comes from foreign sources but that seems to be parsing reality when their available funds for ads is impacted by their total budget – which is, in part, funded from foreign sources.

  130. Okay… so we have a ruling by the SCOTUS that candidates may not accept financing from foreign nationals living in the US, and another deliberate lie by a leftist blog concerning Romney’s activities abroad.

    Still no proof. I’d run with the “Romney killed my wife” fable if I were as desperate as you guys. At least there is truth to that one to the extent the democrat operative’s wife did in fact die.

    Geez.

  131. LeePHill says:

    “Those private companies ensure the amount one pays in, ON AVERAGE, is equal or greater than benefits received.”

    Baseless assertion.

    If someone quits paying premiums, the insurance policy is closed, unlike Social Security where you can quit working long before collecting.

    You don’t know this…..because you don’t know the reality of private insurance either.

  132. LeePHill says:

    “Starving and homeless? 1 in 7(I might be lowballing it) get a non SS or Medicare benefit. Come back to reality.”

    Reality is that you are unable to perform reading comprehension. Read my comment again…..SLOWLY…maybe twice or three times and see if you can comprehend the context of it.

    Try the part that says “OTHER PROGRAMS”…..

  133. took14theteam says:

    Apparently, sumone had a day off today…..

  134. Your comments are not worth reading twice.

    But, now you are saying private insurance plans give out more than they take in? Without govt subsidies? Explain that, clown. How would they sustain themselves over time? They can’t be as evil as you have been saying they are if they pay out so much…

  135. “the problem with your retort is that the Business Roundtable, National Association of Manufacturers and U.S. Chamber of Commerce are not “publicly traded corporations”

    No, they’re lobbyists. You walked “right” into that one. LOL

  136. “Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell complained that Democrats were denying his party the opportunity to amend the bill.”

    From the CNN article: “Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky, had warned Democrats before the vote that his party would want to amend the bill — possibly with hot-button issues like repealing the health care reform law or extending the Bush-era tax cuts for all income levels.”

    Yep, those amendments have a lot to do with ending the tax write-off for outsourcing jobs, don’t they.

  137. No, they’re lobbyists.

    You should keep your nose underground, mole, and avoid conversations having nothing to do with tasty root systems.

    bB’s claim was completely false since none of the three groups mentioned are multi-national corporations.

    And your implication is specious since only one is a registered lobbying organization (not that that has anything to do with bB’s original comment).

    We’ll let you figure out which one that is since you conveniently “forgot” to link you CNN article (gee, wonder if something was taken out of context… or if there’s more in the “article” that mole doesn’t want to show?).

    Dig?

  138. you conveniently “forgot” to link you CNN article (gee, wonder if something was taken out of context… or if there’s more in the “article” that mole doesn’t want to show?).

    I already posted a link to it. I know it’s hard, but at least try to keep up.

  139. Show of hands from all the wrong-wingers who have refused to take social security, medicare, or any other “entitlement” program in the past, or who pledge to do so in the future.

  140. I already posted a link to it.

    LMAO, two days ago. I know you think highly of yourself, but (hate to break it to you) 90% of you garbage is posted in fly-over country for me.

    Cute poll though, very original – certainly for someone at your level of maturity.

  141. As of October 2010, the Chamber had a worldwide network of 115 American Chamber of Commerce affiliates located in 108 countries

    A US Chamber executive has said that the organization has had “foreign multinationals” (foreign companies) as members for “over a century, many for decades.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Chamber_of_Commerce#Affiliate_organizations

    Keep picking those nits Clamat0

  142. beerBs, I did say of the three business groups in question, “only one is a registered lobbying organization”.

    Congratulations, you win the cupie doll.

  143. Here’s a nit I’m picking…..”Kewpie doll”

    :-)

  144. Touché, LOL.

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