Letters to the Editor

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ELECTION: Obama-Biden avoiding the real issues

Letter by Robert Bennett, Steilacoom on Aug. 23, 2012 at 11:39 am with 122 Comments »
August 23, 2012 12:08 pm

Ask any American citizen what the major issues of our time are and majority answers will be the economy, jobs and the $16 trillion national debt. All major polls indicate this fact. The Congressional Budget Office issued several warnings about the collapse of our economy and this “fiscal cliff” looming on the horizon.

However, the two presidential candidates are offering different messages.

Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are circling the country and discussing these issues directly to growing crowds of supporters. There is no doubt what is at stake here. Plain and simple, it’s our economic future. They have outlined their approach, their ideas and present them in a clear divisive way. Cut federal spending, lower tax rates and allow our economy to grow by unleashing our great economic engine. This will allow companies to expand and create jobs. This has been successful many times and it works.

Barack Obama and Joe Biden are taking a different course. Their campaign is dealing with social issues such as gay marriage, student loans, women’s rights, raising taxes on “millionaires and billionaires,” and personal character attacks on their opponents. It doesn’t take much to understand that Obama and Biden are avoiding the real issues. That’s understandable; their record is a disaster.

Obama preaches that Romney is “out of touch” with America. Let me ask: Who is out of touch here? The candidates who confront these real issues or the others who avoid it?

Leave a comment Comments → 122
  1. alindasue says:

    Student loans and raising taxes are, in fact, both parts of the larger economic issue that both candidates are touching on.

    The personal character attacks, much like the ones in your letter, are also pretty much coming from both sides.

  2. Pecksbadboy says:

    Boy talk about a talking points memo, this letter has it all.

    Cut what, defense, medicaid/medicare, privatize social security?

    Lower taxes on who, just the millionaires?

    I am afraid Mr Bennett, you are out of touch with America.

  3. SandHills says:

    I’ll keep repeating….the GOP wants a one issue (economy -but really it’s beat Obama) to be the only issue in thos election. so the finer points of economic strategy can be debated into infinity zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    The GOP wins with this strategy, as apathy is the only other votes (actually less voters at the polls).

    But emotional issues that resonate with those usually disinclined from voting at all, well that is the most logical strategy for Obama, and of course those are the issues the GOP want to deflect at every turn.

    Romney is preaching to his choir – he has no hope to reach the untold millions of non-committed voters (he has neither the personality, nor the message to do so if he tried).

    Ryan may actually have been the best choice Romney could have made as a running mate…..FOR DEMOCRATS!

    So again, it is a race between apathy and Obama. Apathy has Romney riding into the WH on its

    Can a community organizer use social issues as class warfare ammunition provided by Romney/Ryan to defeat apathy?

    That is the election in a nutshell., just saying, my opinion. – getting too much in the weeds brings out the ad nauseum partisan arguments.

  4. SandHills says:

    ….riding into the WH on its “coatttails”

    Guess I will never be adept at the iPad keyboard – on a forum that can’t be edited, and a bad habit of hitting send too fast…..

  5. averageJose says:

    alindasue, would you be so kind as to point to a personal character attack from the writer. Thank you.

  6. Alindasue wrote: The personal character attacks, much like the ones in your letter, are also pretty much coming from both sides.
    _______________________________________________________

    After a careful reading of Mr Bennett’s letter I can only conclude that
    Lindasue has a very, very narrow definition of what constitutes a personal character attack. Perhaps LS can point out where she finds any personal character attack contained in Mr. Bennett’s letter. We can wait.

  7. Frankenchrist says:

    Tax cuts are the repukes religion. Bush cut taxes and millionaires and billionaires and he crashed the economy, and the entirelty of Romney’s economics plan is tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.

    Mittens/Ryan is just warmed-over Bushonomics.

  8. sandblower says:

    We don’t like the way the prepubnuts propose to deal with the economy because it goes against practical knowledge. Take England as an example.
    The Keynesian examples we have seen in the recent past, on the other hand, have worked and that is what we should be doing. Jobs will return to pre-recession levels about 2017. That has been predicted since at least 2009.

    The social issues being addressed by President Obama are important and are a requirement, because it is the repubs who will turn the clock back 100 years and put women back in chains among other things. If one does not known anything else upon which to base their vote, it is women’s rights and the democrats will protect and enhance them.

  9. Austerity will never create prosperity.

    Romney/Ryan is W’s approach with more perks for the rich. No analysis has demonstrated that it can pay for itself without raising taxes on the middle class. Privatization of Medicare and Social Security will destroy both programs – that is why they are not proposing that those over 55 be affected – oldsters tend to vote.

  10. stopcomplainin says:

    What is really killing America besides the economy is liberalization and socialism here in America. Fix liberalization and socialism, and the economy just might take care of itself. Quit relying on social programs to by the big screen TVs and rely on hard work and getting a job.

  11. alindasue says:

    beerBoy said, “Austerity will never create prosperity.”

    If there’s one thing we can learn from the even bigger economic mess going on in Europe right now, it is that. Greece tried austerity. It made things worse.

    oldoc,
    My name is Alinda, not Linda. (Linda is my mother.)

    On rereading the letter, I’m not seeing the specific personal attack I thought I saw earlier. It’s more the one-sided accusatory tone of the letter itself that strikes me as a personal attack.

    However, I stand behind my assertion that both sides have been quick to fling mud and personal attacks at the other – whether it be “he’s out of touch” or “the Kenyan”, “where’s the tax returns” or “where’s the college records”, “gave my mother cancer” or “death panels”. It’s all pretty nasty, detracts from the real issues, and panders to the crowds they are already appealing to anyhow. The rest of us have no use for it.

  12. Those evil rich are paying for most of federal govt. 50% pay zero. The system is a mess. Yes, people need to pay up. That means the middle class and the poor that take the most from govt.

    As to austerity http://m.economictimes.com/news/international-business/eurozone-current-account-in-surplus-grows-in-june-ecb/articleshow/15530239.cms

    Yup, it works. We have been using Keynesian economics for 12 years. How’s that working out? Bush and BHO stimulus, trillions spent, little effect.

  13. stopcomplainin says:

    Wish I could edit my last comment…that should be “buy the big screen”

  14. Candles16 says:

    The President is the only one warning about the pending economic cliff that Republicans in Congress are driving the country off. The President is indeed talking about the economy. He’s defending our economy from a hostile takeover, because our economy will be in trouble if we let in the aristocrat GOP party again. The lost decade during the Bush administration and 12 yrs of Republican Congress resulted in the largest depression since the ‘Great Depression’ known in the 1930s & 40s as the Republican depression.

    Austerity means shrinking the economy, on the backs of the middle class and the poor. Unless you have millions in the bank, unless you are part of the 1% you will stand to lose out with the Romney Ryan agenda. The GOP will dismantle social security, medicare, medicaid, and VA benefits – all just to give away more tax cuts to the rich (so bums like Romney can move their money overseas to evade paying any taxes).

  15. truthbusterguy says:

    Robert, your letter gets the TBG stamp of approval. Please ignore the left wing loonies, you can’t fix stupid. That said…..

    I’m not in the camp that thinks the Romney/Ryan combo will save America from the fiscal trainwreck ahead. But, I do respect Ryan’s brain power. At least his VP selection has forced people to talk about substantive issues like Medicare, the budget and government spending. By forcing Obama and his wingnut VP Biden to discuss these issues reveals their lies and misinformation campaign. It also reveals they have no plan whatsoever to fix anything. The Democratic party is in complete denial. Their company line is that everything is just fine. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are not broken and will not bankrupt the country. What fools. At least Ryan is showing the hypocrisy and delusion of these dimwits.

  16. alindasue says:

    CT8,

    This is also from that same article that you linked to:

    “Not all were as enthusiastic. London-based Capital Economics instead focused primarily on growth indications as the eurozone readies for what could be a prolonged recession.

    “With global growth slowing, we don’t expect the resilience of the core’s exports to last much longer,” its economists said in a note.
    Given a subdued outlook for domestic demand, it underlined: “We still see both Germany and France slipping into recession in 2013.”

    So, what does it mean? It means that like “stimulus”, most programs have positive results in the short term, but it doesn’t cure the long term problem. Some austerity, like some stimulus, is a good thing – but too much austerity acts as a hindrance to the long term economic growth that leads to prosperity.

  17. Molly, who is going to defend us from his ridiculous spending?

    Austerity meas shrinking the govt, not the economy. See link above.

    You are too partisan to care about reality, but with enough information perhaps you will end your ignorant rhetoric and lies.

    Just out curiosity, who do you credit or blame for the economy, Congress or the admin? I am asking about the last 100 years. Do you ignore the first year of a party handoff to let policy take effect? Curious what thought and research you have dedicated to economics and policy.

  18. No, it means they found one liberal Brit for a quote.

  19. Greece tried austerity. It made things worse.

    How can you say that? Greece first enacted austerity measures as a condition of a bailout by the IMF barely two years ago. Clearly, at that point in time Keynesian economics of government spending in excess of 50% of GDP, a 50% raise in salary for government workers between 1999 and 2007, as well as cadillac benefits and crippling legacy costs of of retirees – many of whom are eligible to retire at age 50 – are the cause of Greece’s latest economic crisis.

    And the result of Greece’s high tax rates? The “shadow economy” represents 20 to 30 percent of GDP. Tax policy has led to tax evasion and sheltering on an unprecedented scale. Couple that with corrupt government officials – many of whom live extravagant lifestyles off of the bribes they receive.

    Yet this is the monetary policy the Krugmanites would have us emulate?

    Austerity measures were enacted in 2010 to force reform in Greece. That the public doesn’t like the taste of the medicine is no surprise. But after barely two years you cannot say with any degree of certainty austerity measures haven’t worked. The Greek mess will take much longer to resolve – much longer than two years.

  20. LeePHill says:

    Since talking about Romney’s business background qualifies as a personal attack, I can only laugh at oldoc and Jose being anal retentive about alindasue’s reference to a personal attack.

    What is a personal attack on Romney? So far, his business background, his religion,and his taxes all qualify as personal attacks.

    Forget that Obama is a “non-citizen, Muslim-Black Liberationist whose only job prior to politics was being a community organizer”

    The Whinery Local #69 is winding up for the final stretch of the campaign.

  21. LeePHill says:

    “50% pay zero.”

    Again, CT points out that 50% of the citizens of the “wealthiest country in the world” don’t make enough money to pay taxes on income.

    Couple this with the attempts of those who do make money doing everything possible to not pay taxes and you have a country that has no revenue and is paying for services with a credit card.

    And these clowns try to pretend like their are economists because someone taught them one word…Keynesian….and honestly, they probably can’t really define it.

  22. LeePHill says:

    “You are too partisan to care about reality”

    Oh no….CT didn’t say that…..LMAO….

  23. MrCarleone says:

    Ahhh, another Bobby Bennett masterpiece !

    And, another Epic Fail for Bobby !

  24. averageJose says:

    Yea, I couldn’t find it either alinda… much the same as the ol’ “both sides are doing it”… just not really tho.

  25. LeePHill says:

    I’m sure glad that the Republicans have never attacked Obama. Otherwise, their complaint would make them hypocritical.

  26. took14theteam says:

    economic cliff that Republicans in Congress are driving the country off

    How can that be? Remember, Obama took the “keys” from the Republicans and sent them to the back of the bus.

    The only one driving the country off the economic cliff is BHO and the Democrats. He has pedal to the metal and the ride over the cliff is going to be a doozie.

  27. LeePHill says:

    “who is going to defend us from his ridiculous spending”

    Congress spends. Educated people know that.

    It would appear Paul Ryan isn’t the guy to stop spending. His votes in Congress resulted in over $6 trillion in additional debt.

  28. the3rdpigshouse says:

    2012 will be the most important presidential election in our nations history! The current occupant of the White House is a groomed anti-American marxist/socialist who intends to destroy a great nation – the USA!! Wake up citizens and get this national embarrassment out of office ASAP!!

  29. took14theteam says:

    Ever hear of the term Veto?

    We all love your one sided comments here that you use to try to make excuses for the person you claim to support, but whatever.

  30. LeePHill says:

    “How can that be? Remember, Obama took the “keys” from the Republicans and sent them to the back of the bus.”

    Someone is very bad at history. Obama’s comment about the “back seat” (not back of the bus) was prior to the Republican takeover of Congress in 2010

    You can’t have the keys back. You don’t know how to drive. You can ride with us if you want, but you got to sit in the backseat. – Obama, October 2010

    Nothing about “back of the bus”.

    It’s amazing how the conservatives can bastardize an Obama quote and keep repeating it over and over to try to make it their truth.

    Now, those of us that know what happened is that Obama took over a mess and the conservative TEA Party convinced voters that he should have fixed everything in two years. As you can see, nothing has been fixed since the Republicans took over in 2010.

    Truth, a refreshing breath of air.

  31. LeePHill says:

    Someone got their hand slapped and it going to blame it on anyone except themselves….

  32. rhyddfrydwyr angen i dynnu pennau o asesu

  33. 2010 – GOP runs on Jobs – what we get is ultra-right-wing social engineering
    2012 – GOP claims to want to run on economy – what we will get is ultra-radical right-wing social engineering.

    Sandhill – there is an ipad cover that comes complete with a keyboard.

    Stopcomplainin – what Is killing the us is the GOP no new taxes for the rich, and their failure to do what is best for the Country and the 99% of us who are not millionaires and billionairs.

    CT8,
    When the top tax bracket was over 50% we had a strong economy.

    Even when the rate was 39% we still had as strong economy and a balanced budget.

    Then Bush cut the rate to 36% and the economy went down the drain.

    Now Romney/Ryan want to cut the top rate even further, which will be the coup d’grace for our once great nation.

    TBG – Ryan’s budget adds trillions to the debt and takes at lest 28 years to begin paying down the debt. Is your bar that low?

  34. ErnestTBass says:

    Little Barack and Uncle Joe this ones for you.
    http://obamashlamadama.com/YT-embed/are-you-kidding-me.html

  35. menopaws says:

    I love Bushonomics!!!!!! Wonderful—someone who gets that Reagan RAISED TAXES……..A smart Republican who understood the role of increasing revenue….quit quoting him if you can’t do HIS dance of courage……..Hypocrites who throw out Reaganomics, but neglect to mention his common sense………..Younger, dumber Republicans buy it………and older ones debase his heritage……….Sad, sad, sad.

  36. alindasue says:

    CT8 said, “Just out curiosity, who do you credit or blame for the economy, Congress or the admin? I am asking about the last 100 years. Do you ignore the first year of a party handoff to let policy take effect?”

    I don’t know who “Molly” is, but that part seems to be aimed at one of my earlier comments.

    Congress, the admin, Wall Street, and we consumers are all part of the cause and effects of the economy – in the last 100 years and then some. No president alone can affect the economy for good or bad. He can suggest to congress, he can veto actions of congress, but he alone does not direct the economy.

    And… yes, I do ignore the first year or so of a party hand-off to let policies take effect.

    Clamat0 said, “But after barely two years you cannot say with any degree of certainty austerity measures haven’t worked. The Greek mess will take much longer to resolve – much longer than two years.”

    Yet, you expect results that fast here in the US?

    When I was doing some link hopping researching unemployment figures, I encountered something interesting. There were references to the “the recession of 2009-2011″, “the recession of 2007-2008″, “the recession of 2004″, “recession of 2001″, and so forth. If you look at the pattern going back a good decade or longer, it’s really all fluctuations in the same recession. We’ve never really fully recovered from the recession that started back in the 1970s. We’ve had short periods of improvement, but we keep falling back to the same bubble-bust-recession pattern that we’ve pretty much been in almost since back when the dollar was taken off the gold standard.

    We have a love-hate relationship with inflation. Inflation is bad because people can’t afford to buy things to keep the economy flowing, yet inflation is needed to keep stock prices and home values rising…

    It’s not something that “Keynesian economics” OR “austerity measures” alone can fix. That’s not going to be fixed in just a couple years.

  37. There they go again!

  38. alindasue says:

    averageJose,

    Go back and read my 2:59pm post again. I gave a few examples of the mudslinging from BOTH sides in that post. All mudslinging accomplishes though is to dirty things up so no one can see the whole picture clearly.

    It makes me wonder what the people flinging the mud don’t want me to see.

  39. averageJose says:

    Like I said…

  40. Alindasue- if austerity can work in an economy the size of the eurozone, it can work here. It needs to work here because we cannot afford to spend like this.

    The comment you addressed was actually to 16candles. 1980’s reference.

  41. LeePHill, get a life. Alindasue, ditto. Beerboy, xring, and all you other liberal broken-record-2-much-time-on-your-hands people that post here regularly, but offer no substance to the debate – you bore the he11 outta me. Try putting some intelligence into your posts instead of insults; recognize that others have an opinion as well. Come out of the closet and identify yourselves with your real name. Prove your authority or at least come up with your own comments instead of cut-n-paste links to websites we don’t care to look at. Write a LTE yourselves, own it, and be sure to proofread for accuracy before you submit it. If you have a good argument, perhaps you will be published instead of acting all superior to those who actually ARE published.

  42. alindasue says:

    wlake, for your benefit I will “identify” myself.

    real name: Alinda Sue Harrison
    (Yes, I post with my real name. What’s yours?)

    Political party: none. I don’t believe in following party lines. Whether I am “liberal” or “conservative” depends on the issue at hand and what the current definitions of “liberal” or “conservative” are at the moment. I have voted for Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and “third party” candidates and will continue to do so. (Despite being accused of being “liberal” in this thread, I have actually voted for more Republican presidential candidates than Democrats.)

    While I haven’t written a LTE in the last month or so, I have written several that have been published both in the print newspaper and here online. Some people disagree with my letters. That’s fine. I like a good debate and if everyone agreed all the time, none of us would ever learn anything.

    I generally only post “links to websites we don’t care to look at” when I am stating figures and statistics and want to show the original source of my information. You can ignore them if you so choose, just like I do the links to obviously partisan sites and the YouTube links.

    Any more questions?

  43. SandHills says:

    Not normally a cut and paste poster myself, but this week’s Time had a painted a picture pf Paul Ryan that confirms my head scratching over Romney picking him as his running mate:

    In Ryan’s 2010 budget, all taxes on capital gains were lifted. By this standard, according to the Atlantic, Romney would have paid a tax rate of less than 1% in 2010, the only year for which we have his returns. In some of his proposals, Ryan has replaced the capital gains tax with a sales tax, or VAT, which would have the perverse effect of raising taxes on the middle class and poor while lowering them for the rich. In Ryan’s world–in Rand’s fantasy–average folks are taxed because they haven’t had the good sense to become wealthy.
    Because of the hilariously inappropriate tax cuts, Ryan’s budget doesn’t reduce the deficit very quickly, but it is imbalanced on the backs of the poor and elderly. I believe that poverty is often the result of inappropriate behavior–out-of-wedlock births, dropping out of school, crime and drugs–which should not be rewarded. But often it isn’t, and common decency requires that we take care of the least of these. Ryan’s Medicare proposal is Exhibit A when it comes to his casual inhumanity: he would force the elderly, many of whom are addled and decrepit, to make market choices in one of the most complicated, opaque markets around. Ryan’s Medicaid proposal would eviscerate long-term care for the elderly poor. Republicans whine about class warfare, but what is this? It is a reversion to a more brutal, less humane state of nature. It is an “idea” whose time has gone.

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2122234,00.html#ixzz24RNIYjR1

  44. Alindasue – I didn’t ask you a question. I made a statement. You proved my point. BTW – if you read the TNT LTE’s on a regular basis, you would know who I am – ask beerboy. I’m published every time I submit a letter. That’s right – EVERY time.

  45. yabetchya says:

    alinda,
    wlake has identified her self with many LTE. She has been bashed, insulted, and down right degraded by many on here. The left loves to slam dunk the insults.They erode the female factor of those who do question,(even partial disagreement)with their progressive opression of women.

    I disagree with her on some points, yet I do believe that she represents a whole lot of regular folks.

  46. I don’t need to provide links to websites to validate my POV – I challenge you to prove me wrong on anything I write or say. It won’t happen.

  47. Thanks yabetcha… you rock.

  48. yabetchya says:

    wlake, keep writing.

    You are a strong force in the movement for the voice of women. I am so upset that the left is saying that the war on women is from the right…….Bill Clinton who will be a featured speaker, was the king of ‘on your knees woman’……here I come, ready or not.

  49. Yabetchya, thank you for the compliment! Wow, I never considered myself a voice of women specifically, but rather a voice for common sense. I have little patience for ignorant, insultive, abusive people that have no respect for others – let alone themselves.

    Bill Clinton is a skeeze. Just looking at him makes me want to vomit. His nose is even in the shape of a p***s. Ew. My mom used to wear a button that said “I Believe Paula”. LOLOLOL

  50. yabetchya says:

    wlake, common sense, is being foddered by hoodwinking.

  51. what the he11 does that mean?

  52. Isn’t a matter of why we have to cater to banks and the rich
    and giant corporations pulling the strings all over the world?

  53. Frankenchrist says:

    wlake,

    Quit hiding behind a fake name. Coward.

  54. I’m published every time I submit a letter. That’s right – EVERY time.

    Congratulations Wendy! (that’s right – wlake is Wendy Lake so she is, indeed using a screen name directly related to her Christian name). That is a major accomplishment! I’m sure you are very proud!

    Now….could you stop attacking people who post here and actually discuss the letter?

  55. His nose is even in the shape of a p***s.

    After all these years, there are still some posts that just make me shake my head in disbelief that someone would actually type that.

  56. LeePHill says:

    “I’m published every time I submit a letter. That’s right – EVERY time.”

    So is Lyle Laws. So am I. So what?

    When you put out your opinion in a public forum, get ready for people to disagree.

    I spit coffee all over my monitor, laughing at right wing extremists complaining about being “bashed”.

  57. LeePHill says:

    “I don’t need to provide links to websites to validate my POV – I challenge you to prove me wrong on anything I write or say. It won’t happen.”

    CT in drag?

  58. averageJose says:

    I’m still shaking my head that someone would actually type what the name of the gov. of Idaho reminds him of… seriously.

  59. NWflyfisher says:

    He promised “hope and change” and instead gave us debt, doubt and despair. He’s got nothing to run for reelection with other than distracting personal attacks. Americans are waking up to this reality.

  60. aJ ……..didn’t say it “reminded” me.

  61. averageJose says:

    The hypocrisy is staggering…

  62. harleyrider1 says:

    Here I was thinking our spending $2-Billion dollars a day in Afghanistan and Africa on presidential-declared wars was the reason.

    Or borrowing trillions instead of just stopping the spending for the past Eight (8) years might have been responsible. I thought someone else, who’s party controlled Congress for the first two years, of his eight-year Presidency, might have been responsible.

    Blaming Bush? Still? Are Americans really that dumb? I guess the election will answer it.

  63. “Are Americans really that dumb?” Well if the amount of Obama 2012 stickers in the area is any indication, then yes. America is that dumb. Solving the economic issues is hard….and people don’t want to hear their government check might stop coming in and they might have to get to work to solve this problem.

  64. As alsways harleyrider, you bring folks back to the actual issues. Thanks.

    I must chime in here regarding this ridiculous “war on women” nonsense. First of all, only a very particular segment of the female population buy the assault on the right regarding this. Thinking women will not choose either candidate based soley on his or her stance on women’s issues.

    And I am truly astonished that some women are so warped as to forget the conduct of the men in their ranks who have dishonored and abused women repeatedly. Kennedy(s) Clinton, Edwards…to name just a few. These, and others like them, are the men you choose to represent you?

  65. p.s. …and please, do not presume that the vocal left women represent all of us when it comes to, well…anything. Like one who posts here regularly, they seem to be a group of very angry, embittered women who fall easily for rhetoric that fuels their anger. It’s a shame.

  66. LeePHill says:

    sozo attempts to represent that her voice is “everywoman” while telling others to not speak for her.

    Nothing has changed, I see.

  67. LeePHill says:

    harley….sorry to tell you, but Bush’s legacy of unpaid wars will be around for a long time to blame, with exception of those trying to ignore the truth

  68. Ok Hill, please explain the whole “unpaid” nonsense. Because he did not match war costs with reductions in domestic spending? Do not forget he started his term with a recession and 9-11. That he did not create a new tax to pay for it?

    Our current tax structure (federal) can trace its roots to war spending. If progressives did not find ways to spend that money on entitlements, we would have the cash.

    What has BHO done? His borrowing is at an insane rate. And let’s not forget who is In office today.

  69. MyBandito says:

    wlake- Open both eyes when you criticize. Your bias is obviously against those with whom you disagree. Oh, and don’t pretend that you’re just soooo above-it-all. You’re no different than the rest of us.

  70. The real issue is that the GOP has spent four years blocking the President’s plans and then blames Obama for our economic problems while offering nothing but tax cuts for the rich and ‘austerity’ for the rest of us.

    At a GOP very recent GOP fundraiser Romney boasted that the rich and the corporations were doing well because they knew how to hide money in offshore accounts to avoid paying US taxes.

  71. And I am truly astonished that some women are so warped as to forget the conduct of the men in their ranks who have dishonored and abused women repeatedly. Kennedy(s) Clinton, Edwards…to name just a few. These, and others like them, are the men you choose to represent you?

    Nice try to follow aislander’s lead to obfuscate the issue here.

    There is no evidence that “some women” (nice straw woman there) forget (or even forgive) the reprehensible behavior of the folks you listed.

  72. And….there is a BIG difference between reprehensible INDIVIDUAL conduct that negatively impacts individuals and individuals attempting to justify public policy that effects the choices of all women.

    To attack one is not saying that the other is OK – your meme is false and an attempt to shunt attention away from your “side”.

  73. Oh I see, bBoy, so it’s okay to objectify and abuse women individually as long as you say all the right things regarding public policy? The character of the individual DOES matter despite the continued effort to make it otherwise.

    And LeeP…I do not presume to speak for all women, but because the media bias is so extensive,moderately informed people who depend on the mainstream media might falsely conclude that all women are represented by the dames that continually try to make men like Romney and Ryan anti-women. Just wanting to set the record straight here…those gals do not speak for me, nor do they speak for a large number of other women who never happen to get a microphone plopped in front of them.

  74. LeePHill says:

    Let’s see…..wasn’t it the Romney campaign that was complaining about Obama being “personal”?

    COMMERCE, Mich. — Wading into a debunked conspiracy theory, Mitt Romney raised the issue of President Barack Obama’s citizenship Friday by joking that “no one’s ever asked to see my birth certificate.”

    At a rally in the suburbs of Detroit, Romney told a crowd of about 5,000 that he and his wife were happy to be back near their childhood home. “They know that this is the place that we were born and raised,” the candidate said.

  75. LeePHill says:

    “CT8 says:
    Aug. 24, 2012 at 10:48 am Ok Hill, please explain the whole “unpaid” nonsense.”

    Someone flunked middle school American History.

    Major wars are paid for with tax increases and compromises by the citizenry – not using steel, gasoline rationing, etc. Bush waged two wars and added a tax CUT as the dessert for a very expensive meal.

    Just that I had to explain demonstrates the problem with the TEA Party Bircher mentality that wants to run this country.

  76. They discussed income tax history in middle school? No, they did not.

    Has BHO enacted a special war tax in response to his surge or support of the Arab Spring?

    What if he asked the 50% of non-paying citizens to assist in paying for his surge? Only the rich should pay for our national defense?

  77. LeePHill says:

    “What has BHO done? His borrowing is at an insane rate.”

    The present borrowing is at a lesser rate than the Administration that doubled the debt.

    Not a math major, huh?

  78. LeePHill says:

    “These government expenditures were financed by taxes and “war bonds”. Because of the massive increase in government spending, which was much higher than the collected taxes, the budget deficit rose substantially during war.” – dickinson.edu

    Get another teacher, CT, or try to comprehend the lessons better

  79. Financed by debt. You are a real genius. What are we doing now?

    A, Bush spent too much. That is agreed upon by both sides of the aisle. What is your point?
    B. you need to play some serious games to paint BHO as frugal. Trillion plus deficits. Only happened in one Bush year and a large part was TARP (paid back). Try again

  80. Sozo – the three couples were in CONSENSUAL relationships.

  81. sozo – how do you conclude that, when I write “REPREHENSIBLE behavior” and “REPREHENSIBLE individual conduct” that I am saying that it is OK?

    AGAIN – Akin voiced his idiotic opinion in support of changing public policy. You attempt to deflect that with lists of individuals that some straw women you have created have “forgotten”. I point out that there is a difference between attempt to create policy that impacts ALL women and individual behavior.

    You have better reading comprehension skills than many on this board – I must assume you are being willfully obtuse as to the meaning of my post.

  82. LeePHill says:

    Obama is left to pay the debt that Bush ran up, plus interest, plus the CDB, on inflationary dollars.

    Like I said – “not a math major, huh?”

  83. LeePHill says:

    Why aren’t the conservatives talking about Romney’s swan dive in the gutter with the comment about no one’s ever asked to see my birth certificate.”?

  84. Because it was humorous. Just like your attempt to spin BHO into a responsible spender.

    Interest on the total debt is $225bil. What was the deficit last year, and the year before…

    Try again!

  85. LeePHill says:

    What was the CDB?

    You only cite one factor of the equation.

    Try again!

    I see. Romney was just making humor, and not being personal, huh?

  86. Ah, where does that sum go? A large chunk (look it up yourself) is intergovernmental debt.

    Go back to my figure.

    I do not know the CDB (cost dollar basis?). Fill me in

  87. LeePHill says:

    LMAO.

    Cost of Doing Business

    And you are the one trying to play economist.

    Thanks, for the laughs.

  88. That was funny? You failed with facts.

    For an older man, you are quite childish.

  89. took14theteam says:

    “sozo attempts to represent that her voice is “everywoman” while telling others to not speak for her.

    Nothing has changed, I see.”

    Another “off topic” comment and Personal attack.

    Cue ehill to set the record straight.

  90. frankenchrist – you will very much enjoy this – it has to do with LDS teachings about space, the sun and the planets:
    http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/stephen-pizzo/45110/your-official-mormon-teaching-of-the-day-for-august-24th-2012

  91. LeePHill says:

    CT – how did I fail, when you don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about?

  92. “Austerity meas shrinking the govt, not the economy.”

    Economics 101: all dollars spent are part of the GDP. Taking federal spending out of the economy will cause it to falter.

  93. You failed by not seeing much of the debt you quoted was the govt paying itself.

    You then throw slang out into the conversation and declare a victory. It is very pathetic.

    I had to teach you what our interest payments are on the debt. You ate up leftist propaganda instead o facts.

  94. Ehill, find my link to the current European situation. Or look up Estonia.

    Find a source other than Krugman for your talking points.

  95. MarksonofDarwin says:

    Please. All of you who are complaining about austerity not creating prosperity just STOP.**
    .
    Austerity has to do with government spending. NOTE: *Government* spending. A smaller government can only help our economy to grow. You know, if you really stop and think about all of the salaries, benefits…and CRONYISM that thrives and grows with bigger government.
    And who was the knucklehead who claimed that Greece’s problems are because of austerity???…please. The internet is your friend. I know that Sandhills (who I think is awesome) has fallen asleep, but you can’t just claim to actually know something, when you clearly do NOT! Economics IS boring, so if you are bored just say so, but don’t claim to understand anything about it, okay?
    .
    Our economic problems stem from cronyism. Period. Full stop.
    .
    You want to stop cronyism, or at least curtail some or most of it? Then we need to STOP growing our government and handing over so much power and money to our government overlords. (I have just explained “austerity” to the slowest members of this group…you’re welcome)
    .
    .
    .

    **This plea particularly begins, and pretty much ends with my friend Bb who should really know better than to put forth such sophistry.

  96. “find my link to the current European situation. Or look up Estonia”

    Yeah, right. Estonia, a country with a GDP smaller than Vermont’s, is a good comparison with this country. Thanks for a great laugh!

    Greece implemented its austerity program in early 2010. Since then, unemployment has more than doubled. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate

  97. “Austerity has to do with government spending. NOTE: *Government* spending. A smaller government can only help our economy to grow.”

    Like it did in 1937?

    For the historically challenged, in 1937 this country was almost recovered from the Great Depression. The GDP was back to 1929 levels, and so were production, profits, and wages. Unemployment was still high (14%), but was down to about half of what it had been. Sound familiar? It should – that’s about where we are now.

    But the Roosevelt administration, concerned about the debt/deficits and egged on by conservatives, cut federal spending and tightened the money supply. Since the federal government is the biggest consumer in the country, the effect of taking a big chunk of money out of circulation (cutting spending) while also making what was left in circulation harder to get (tightening the money supply) was a double-whammy that ended the recovery and led to the 2nd worst economic downturn of the twentieth century. The recession of 1937-38 was topped only by the crash of 1929. Unemployment spiked to 19%, and production dropped by 30%. We didn’t recover until the economy was stimulated by the massive deficit spending incurred to fight WWII.

    And you want to repeat that? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

  98. MoD – sorry, but your plea to just stop because of your belief that “A smaller government can only help our economy to grow.” isn’t very convincing, even though I have great respect for you.

    And….to label my statement as sophistry is absurd – and rather beneath you.

    Aside from the rather lame example of Estonia that has been put forward, no one has supported Austerity based economics with anything other than “we don’t have enough money”. No cost/benefit analysis just a faith that smaller government can only help.

    I have repeatedly pointed to Iceland’s example – where they refused to reward the banksters for their reckless debt speculation, went through a couple of very hard years, and have come out on the other side (the emotionally satisfying bonus is that they are actually prosecuting bankers).

    A financial “solution” that continues to reward the very people who created the mess in the first place, provides incentives to off-shore jobs, and puts the burden solely upon the middle class is no solution.

    Dismiss my point if you like, but it is not based upon sophistry. It is based in reality.

  99. And – an austerity approach that is based in cutting “entitlement” programs will do NOTHING to stop cronyism.

    Cronyism will never be removed as long as money = speech and corporations have individual rights.

  100. frankenchrist – you will very much enjoy this – it has to do with LDS teachings about space, the sun and the planets…

    Yeah bB, I’m sure allindasue is also very impressed with your having linked a site that seeks to mock her religion… for frankenalias, no less.

    Maybe you should remember when dredging up comments from 50, 140, 170 years ago, that such luminaries as Joe Stalin, Kim Jong-il, Mao Zedong, and Fidel Castro, like you, chose to follow the religion of atheism. Shall we go back and look at a few of their statements and deeds?

  101. And – I see no reason to believe that cuts to Medicare and Social Security will lead to Small Government. If Reagan grew the government there is little reason to believe that ANY conservative really is serious about making government small.

  102. Aside from the rather lame example of Estonia that has been put forward…

    I suppose Germany, with the largest economy in Europe, won’t impress you either.

    Germany, under Merkel’s austerity policy, is a country with a deficit of one percent of its GDP, and is the only European economy that grew (0.5%) in the first quarter of 2012. France, on the other hand, under the new so-called “growth” policy embraced by the very vocal Francois Hollande, ran a deficit of 4.4 percent and reported economic stagnation over the same period.

    If certain self-proclaimed “economic experts” can pronounce the Greece’s austerity measures a “failure” after barely two years, I see no problem in declaring France’s so-called “growth” policy (I.e. deficit spending) a bust thus far.

    And watch Hollande return to austerity policy shortly, now that the legislative elections are over (albeit, likely under some new, catchy French moniker for the same measures).

  103. Oops, end bold.

  104. Boldly quoting without citations to your sources so I can’t fact check.

    You don’t need to defend alindasue’s sensibilities. She is quite capable of defending herself and her religious beliefs. And…..you don’t raise your level of esteem with me by taking on the took14aJ approach to me.

  105. MarksonofDarwin says:

    bB,

    I was referring to this one line of your comment:
    “Austerity will never create prosperity.”

    Since the government never creates prosperity or wealth, then this statement only sounds pretty, but is rather meaningless. That’s why I called it sophistry. I was mostly teasing you when I called you out specifically though. No hard feelings I hope.

    I do agree that there needs to be an adult conversation about our leviathan government. Anyone who is serious about it would begin with cutting the military, and if my wildest dream could come true…completely eliminate the department of homeland security. Nobody seems to want to talk about that though. *shrug* Must be an election year…

    Oh, and Medicare is set to go broke in 2016. All of the measures that anyone is talking about really just pushes that date back a decade or so. That’s another adult conversation that needs to take place. If I were in my 20s I would be furious every time I looked at the deductions taken that is not an “investment” but rather being hoovered by the “me” generation.

  106. As a 55 year old with a 53 year old wife I am rather furious that, after over three decades of paying into the system, our benefits are the ones that are going to be “adultly” dealt with – ignoring the vast majority of the Baby Boom who are the HUGE demographic problem here.

    I don’t disagree that serious discussions about Medicare need to take place. But the Ryan Voucher Plan is just another gift to Insurance Industry like Obama’s Mandate. Let’s really talk – with all options, including Universal Coverage, on the table.

    Homeland Security has made the US (and the UK) police states with very few rights (they are clearly privileges now). Could someone explain why medium sized cities are getting government grants for TANKS and drone aircraft? The violence by police against the citizens has inflated in direct relation to the growth of the (in)Security State.

  107. Can you show me where they are getting tanks? I see many examples of training by military. Thanks.

    So if medicare and SS was reformed today you would not claim one party or the other was pushing grandma off the cliff? The party you support did just that.

    An interesting take on it would be to make the estate tax zero for a calculated time to balance the payments. That would transfer the wealth being gifted to the Baby Boomers back to the generations paying for their entitlements.

    Nice to see you are just worried about yourself. I would like to see a plan that shows the bulk of people get benefits equal to what they pay in, ending the ponzi scheme. Make it so there is a safety net, but very strict. Back to the original intent of SS.

  108. Tim Lynch, director of the Cato Institute’s project on criminal justice told The Daily, “The trend toward militarization was well under way before 9/11, but it’s the federal policy of making surplus military equipment available almost for free that has poured fuel on this fire.”

    From The Daily:

    Thanks to it, cops in Cobb County, Ga. — one of the wealthiest and most educated counties in the U.S. — now have an amphibious tank. The sheriff of Richland County, S.C., proudly acquired a machine-gun-equipped armored personnel carrier that he nicknamed “The Peacemaker.”

    This comes on top of grants from the Department of Homeland Security that enable police departments to buy vehicles such as “BearCats” — 16,000-pound bulletproof trucks equipped with battering rams, gun ports, tear-gas dispensers and radiation detectors. To date, more than 500 of these tank-like vehicles have been sold by Lenco, its Massachusetts-based manufacturer, according to a report in the Orlando Sentinel.

    “It’s kind of had a corrupting influence on the culture of policing in America,” Lynch says. “The dynamic is that you have some officer go to the chief and say, people in the next county have [military hardware], if we don’t take it some other city will. Then they acquire the equipment, they create a paramilitary unit, and everything seems fine.

    “But then one or two years pass. They say, look we’ve got this equipment, this training and we haven’t been using it. That’s where it starts to creep into routine policing.”

    Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-05/news/30476833_1_armored-vehicles-military-equipment-police-forces#ixzz24gk58OTh

    Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-05/news/30476833_1_armored-vehicles-military-equipment-police-forces#ixzz24gjsu25b

  109. took14theteam says:

    averageJose, should I feel honored or concerned (not you CT8) that beerBoy is obsessing about me now?

    I don’t save any of his comments, but I do remember things he has written. And there definitely is a pattern of “Do as I say, not as I do” in them. Kinda of hypocritical at times. But, that is just my opinion.

    Are you back to school yet beerBoy? Doing as Limbaugh would say, filling those minds full of mush?

  110. averageJose says:

    “kinda” is an understatement.

  111. averageJose says:

    Oh, I wouldn’t worry too much about the “mush”… he has stated he is a dance/drama teacher.

  112. Boldly quoting without citations to your sources so I can’t fact check.

    First of all, bB, I didn’t “quote” anything. Secondly, why have you all of a sudden developed an antipathy to

    Or just go here:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/data-show-german-first-quarter-gdp-grew-more-than-expected-a-833284.html

    HTH

    If I were posting obscure, hard to find, probably cherry-picked and out of context claims… you know, like a few lefties here are often wont to do (citation needed), then a link would always be in order. But this is pretty common… oh… there’s that word again… uh-humph, mainstream information.

    BTW, why so testy? Are you becoming a grumpy ‘ol liberal? And don’t you find your snarky references to the religion of a fellow liberal to be the least bit offensive?

    Speaking of lowering ones esteem.

  113. As far as the behavior of the two I compared you two – just look upthread for examples. I would prefer if you would remain one of the few on “the other side” who I can have relatively civil discussion with.

    After moving to, and living in, a town that is 70% LDS I have developed an attitude towards the dominant culture. I own that. I have discussed this with alindasue. I am satisfied that she knows this about me.

    The link I provided provides actual quotes from the leaders (prophets) of the LDS. It is part of their teaching. I did not comment upon it – I just provided a link. Not sure how providing a link is “snarky”.

    I think that frankenchrist’s anti-Romney posts are short on logic and, in fact, self-defeating and I wish he wouldn’t do that. But, there are times when he (and that guy from Olympia) posts intelligent, cogent ideas.

  114. two too

  115. to

  116. From your linked article

    Germany’s GDP “surged” to a 0.5% growth

    at the same time

    US’s GDP “slowed” to a 2.2% growth.

    See my problem with pointing to Germany’s economy as one we should follow?

  117. I appreciate the fact that you acknowledged the reprehensible nature of the conduct of the individuals, bBoy. I am saying that the attitude these men seem to have about women may, in fact, represent something about their character and thus their POV regarding women. For them and their followers then to “say all the right things” regarding policies pertaining to women strikes me as hypocritical.

    I am simply trying to point out that “the left” does not have a corner on the market regarding what women in this country believe or what we want. I am in no way defending Akin; I honestly don’t even know the full story regarding his comment as all I’ve heard are sound bites, but clearly most everyone finds what he said, at the very least, stupid.

    I do believe that neither Romney ,or Ryan are anti-woman. I do not think the GOP is anti-woman,an absurd statement. When it comes to pro-life/pro-choice discussions, it is NOT anti-woman to act as the voice of the unborn. Right to life trumps gender issues.

    The chorus of left wing female voices on this subject is tiresome…and it suggests something that simply isn’t true.

  118. US’s GDP “slowed” to a 2.2% growth.

    See my problem with pointing to Germany’s economy as one we should follow?

    Except you’re completely ignoring the real benefit of Germany’s austerity policy; while their first quarter GDP may have been approximately 1.4% lower (your figure of 2.5% was adjusted lower to 1.9% in May) than the US, Germany’s total deficit for that quarter was 1% of GDP!!!!

    Ours? Currently running at 103%.

    http://www.northwood.edu/SharedMedia/PDF/AboutUs/Outlook/NUEconomicOutlook_052012.pdf

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp

  119. And the euro plays into Germany’s ability to artificially inflate their growth.

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