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TAXES: Republican cuts haven’t created jobs

Letter by Gabriel Landry, Parkland on Aug. 20, 2012 at 12:54 pm with 110 Comments »
August 20, 2012 1:20 pm

The Republicans are pushing a tax plan that will keep the tax cuts for the top incomes and possibly cut them more. This is supposed to encourage job growth for lower- and middle-income Americans.

What I don’t understand is the rich have had tax cuts since President Bush’s administration, yet during that time we experienced the most significant recession since the Depression of the 1930s.

The Obama administration has made slow but consistent steps toward recovery. Obama has had to fight Republicans whose agenda has been to thwart Obama’s presidency, and damn the economy! Using arcane legislative rules they have stopped every significant change that would have helped this economy.

During the Obama administration, the rich are amassing huge profits in the trillions of dollars. The Republicans claim that taxing the rich will stop growth and kill jobs. What big business has done is make big profits with a desperate workforce. That has lead to reductions in the workforce.

The evidence is the rich do not use profits for creating jobs. The rich move their money to offshore accounts and expand their business in countries with little protection for their workers and cheap wages.

Where are the jobs? They are in India and China, right where the rich want them.

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Leave a comment Comments → 110
  1. Frankenchrist says:

    Gabe,

    Republicons don’t live in our reality-based community. Rather, they live in their own alternate reality where the Earth is only 6,000 years old, rape victims spontaneously abort, and the Bush years were an economic success. They also pretend that Ronald Reagan didn’t raise taxes 16 times during his administration.

    Republicons only believe what Rush and Grover Norquist want them to believe.

  2. LeePHill says:

    Demand creates jobs.

    End of subject

  3. So your solution is to raise the taxes on those who do create jobs? How many poor people have you worked for? Until such time as Obama is out of office, you won’t see any large increase in hiring.

  4. As already said, demand creates jobs. ‘Rich’ people do not create jobs – they invest in a mechanism that allows them to compete for dollars spent primarily by the middle class. If they do well, they deserve it! They took the risk and should benefit from their success, but lets not kid ourselves. One rich man in an island of poverty will have no goods to sell and won’t be rich for much longer. I say reduce corporate taxes to ZERO, but tax all income, including capital gains, as income across the board. Romney should pay the same tax rate a higher-middle class person must pay on a high-salary income. That, my friends, is higher than 13%. All boats will float from a tide designed to lift the middle class.

  5. Alla liberaler är idioter ….

  6. fanciladi says:

    I agree iamur… :)

  7. fanciladi says:

    norsey: Good words…I agree with most of your comment!

  8. menopaws says:

    The talking points memo hasn’t changed in three years….Tax increases are “job killers”. Yet, they continue to call for cuts in services and de-fund various agencies, which, raises the unemployment rate, which they then ding Obama for……….A nice scam job, but their high $$$$ donors haven’t increased hiring in the private sector, with those tax cuts and they have had THREE years to fulfill that “job creator” spin line………So, those of us who can walk and chew gum at the same time are getting sick of this amazing CON job……..They don’t have any jobs plan–they want MORE tax cuts and they will continue to cut government jobs…….The math, such as it is, is just ridiculous…..But, con artists always seek the weakest prey and they have a healthy batch to work with…….

  9. So your solution is to raise the taxes on those who do create jobs?

    circular logic…..as has been pointed out many times – the rich don’t create jobs. The rich offshore jobs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g

  10. averageJose says:

    Who does create jobs?

  11. Obama does not…

  12. MyBandito says:

    Demand creates jobs. Our demand is being filled by China. Gabriel nailed it. Until we limit what we import from China and elsewhere we will continue to go deeper into the hole.

    BTW- Let the Bush tax cuts expire. They’re only hurting our economy.

  13. lylelaws says:

    Gabriel,

    So are you saying that if you could save several thousand dollars in income taxes by moving some of your assets ofshore, you wouldn’t do so?

    Give me a break!

  14. Fibonacci says:

    NO Lyle, he is saying that cutting taxees on the rich does not create jobs with the saved money, they move it offshore. Is this really over your head?

    frosty
    Yes, tax those who “create jobs”. The tax won’t stop them from creating jobs if there is money to be made. They created jobs under Clinton WITH the higher tax rate because, wait for it, they could make money. After Shrub cut taxes, they certainly did not create more jobs than under Clinton. They create jobs when there is a demand, not depending on their tax rate. Just saying it another 100 times won’t make it true.

    CT8, or whatever number you are on now. Presidents don’t create jobs unless it is a government program like the WPA under Roosevelt.

  15. computer1015 says:

    Jobs create demand. Demand is buying power. If people don’t have jobs, they don’t spend.

    Been to Pt Defiance lately? There are several areas with “WPA 1936″ carved into the work. FDR created jobs until the private sector took over. So can Obama, except for the obstructionist Republicans.

  16. LeePHill says:

    computer – work programs can stimulate the economy, thus “create jobs”, but steady job creation is a self sustaining middle class.

    A jobs program would give our economy a boost, but we need a return of manufacturing and middle class wages. The middle class quite buying things when the market dumped in September of 2008 and the loss of jobs during the Bush Administration when unemployment went from 4/2% to 7.9%.

    We need more than an artificial boost.

  17. LeePHill says:

    Taxes were cut by Bush during his administration. The unemployment climbed from 4.2 to 7.9%.

    Now who was saying “tax cuts create jobs”?

  18. computer1015 says:

    GHtaxpayer is manipulating statistics. What he does not say is that the top 10% owns nearly 75% of the nation’s wealth. I should hope they are paying a lot of taxes.

    The argument that 47% pays no income tax just says how skewed wealth distribution has become.

  19. LeePHill says:

    computer – rather sad to say that 47% of Americans don’t make enough money to pay income tax, isn’t it?

  20. LeePHill says:

    “Obama had overwhelming majorities in House & Senate for his first 18 months in office.”

    Here we go again.

    From January to July, 2009, The Democrats had 59 votes in the Senate, one of which was Teddy Kennedy, dying of brain cancer. It takes 60 votes to beat a filibuster, as the Republicans well know.

    For about 30 days, when Al Franken was finally awarded his seat, the Dems held 60 votes….BUT….Kennedy was not present, thus they only had effective 59. Upon Kennedy’s death, Scott Brown was elected.

    It’s really sad to see people that vote have such bad memories of recent history of our government and how it works.

  21. truthbusterguy says:

    Gabe,

    The health care sector is a major supplier of jobs in this area. Call a Board member of either St. Joes or TG and ask them why they aren’t hiring. They will tell you the same thing they told Derek Kilmer. “We can’t afford to hire anyone because of obamacare, cuts to medicare and the fact they are over taxed and over regulated plus need relief from lawsuits with tort reform.

    obama and the democrats are KILLING JOBS and KILLING HIGH PAYING GOOD JOBS. Don’t believe me, ask Kilmer. They told him the same thing. Ask Kilmer what he will do about it and he will tell you there is NOTHING he can do.

  22. Fib- BHO takes about jobs (when he is not playing golf) regularly. He is powerless? Then why did his admin promise millions of jobs (3 letter word) from the stimulus?

    So the recycled talking point is BHO is not responsible?

    The income of the top one percent ha dropped 30+% in the last couple years. Great job BHO. Should their tax burden fall by the same amount?

    Comp, is zero taxes justified? Do those people benefit from the roads, the national defense, etc?

  23. Overwhelming does not equal supermajority. He had enough votes for Obamacare ( against the will of the populous) but not enough for a budget or tax reform?

    Enough excuses. Romney 2012!

  24. averageJose says:

    The unemployment climbed from 4.2 to 7.9% after the dems took the house and senate.

  25. MyBandito says:

    If 47% of Americans do not pay income tax, is that a result of the Bush tax cuts? Let the Bush tax cuts expire. They’ve done enough damage.

  26. LeePHill says:

    “against the will of the populous”

    There was no populous vote on the Affordable Health Care Act.

    This is the kind of lying that the Republicans love to do.

    Does Obama play as much golf as the man who is supposed to be running the House of Representatives?

    “The income of the top one percent ha dropped 30+% in the last couple years. Great job BHO”

    Obama now controls the ability for the weathiest in the county to make money? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

  27. GTH when you leave out the context your interpretations of the conditions are nonsense. It is your typical approach because you have no idea about which you write.

  28. Lots o deflection here…..truth is this: Bush, with his tax cuts, had the WORST jobs creation record of ANY Administration since Hoover.

    Obama went with the extension of tax cuts…..not good.
    Mitt is saying he is going to cut taxes for the rich even more….worse.

  29. GHTaxPayer says:

    Lots of lies coming from the left.
    1) Romney proposes cutting loopholes that wealthy use to avoid paying taxes. Obama has never had the guts to do this, even when he had super-majorities in House and Senate for 18 months (Yes it’s true).
    2) Obama’s $787 Billion Stimulus has failed completely – even CBO and leftist economists are now admitting this.
    3) Unemployment is MUCH HIGHER now than when Obama came into office, especially when you factor in the millions of people his admin. has kicked off the list claiming that they’re not looking for work.

  30. Bb, is congress or the president responsible? Neither? Remember, people have achieves.

    Mrs Hill, he has ‘punished’ the 1%. Forget taxes, he hit them above the line. It hurt all of us (less tax revenue). Where is #ows cheerleading?

    If the dems acted in the interest of their electorate, they would not have supported BHOcare. 2010 showed the will of the people. Polls at the time showed the will of the people. The dems at the time (many were sent packing) thought they knew better than the people. Shame on them.

  31. And no, I don’t. Explain how he is NOT responsible but Bush is… Don’t be stupid!

  32. Frosty – show me the jobs created here in the USA.

    GHT – ‘overwhelming majorities’ you are the one with his head up your butt if you still believe that old lie.

    Romney says he will close loop holes but will never have the authority to do so because Only Congress can do that; and the Rpots are commented to an across the board dollar-for-dollar cut in taxes to offset ever dollar increase by closing loop holes.

    Current unemployment is 8.3% down from a peak of 10% in Jan 09.

  33. 8.3 after $5trillion, and that is ok to some people.

  34. menopaws says:

    GHtaxpayer–What is wrong with you………800.000 jobs PER MONTH were being lost when Obama took office…What color is the sky in your world??????? Just read that figure in the Economist a month or so ago……800, 000 jobs PER month……Do not lie anymore………Why can’t you argue ideas instead of constant spin and lies?????

  35. philichi says:

    The Government causes jobs. We just need higher taxes for all. If we paid 60 to 70% taxes the economy would be doing great.

    I love Obama. He creates jobs. If gas prices keep going up that is good. It will create even more jobs.

    Businessmen should realize that they did not create or do anything. Obama will lead us to the promised land.

    Tax me until it hurts!

  36. So five months into his admin he ‘ended’ the recession due to his policies but he cannot miracle the unemployment rate up? LOL!!!

    If his policies could reverse the tide, why can’t, or didn’t, he push them further? Why have economists and the public misse this? Why is the economy flatlined if he is such a job creator? Where did he learn these skills????

  37. tommy98466 says:

    Gabe… how does raising taxes create jobs? Short answer, they don’t.

  38. FreeAmerica says:

    Jobs will never be in America with foreign countries competing in the labor market with the lure of lower tax rates.
    How can a country compete with china’s manipulation of the market?

    Romney states he will get tough with China…. trade tariffs to equalize currency manipulation is the only answer to protect America.

    China would collapse without American trade…. time to use the leverage.

  39. menopaws says:

    Well, we also now KNOW that lowering them doesn’t work either, right tommy98466???………That is the rub…….Any ideas?

  40. Remember, people have achieves.

    Is there a wrong word in that sentence? I have no idea what you mean by that.

  41. Tax policies, like those proposed by Romney, that encourage (and, indeed, reward) the creation of jobs outside the US, clearly do nothing but reward the elite with no benefit to the country.

    These policies can’t be seen as “trickle down” as the money goes away rather than trickling down to the middle class who then becomes the consumer who fuels a sustainable economy.

    Truth be told, since real wages for the working/middle class have not expanded since the 70s what has fueled our economy for the past 30 years is credit. We like to moralize about the fools who overspent by treating their houses like magical ATMs but the reality is – without them the “supply side” policies would have been a completely a bust immediately. Credit based consumerism is, by definition, unsustainable. This is why there have been so many bubbles the past three decades. This is why the economic crisis – after the housing/mortgage bubble burst – is not easily fixed.

  42. 1. Send BHO back to Chicago
    2. Simplify the tax code. Flatten it; two rates, 25 and 15%. Corporate taxes at 15%. Amnesty for offshore funds for one year.
    3. Domestic energy production. Fix the balance of trade with the ME and export coal, refined products to China.
    4. Control the EPA. Cost/benefit analysis for every action.

    Easy start. Vote Romney 2012!

  43. I guess I misspelled ‘archives’ and autocorrect got me.

  44. BeerBoy wrote: Credit based consumerism is, by definition, unsustainable. This is why there have been so many bubbles the past three decades.

    I ask: Then what is the definition of a credit based government? It too must be unsustainable. Does it contribute to economic bubbles?

  45. LeePHill says:

    “Obama has never had the guts to do this, even when he had super-majorities in House and Senate for 18 months (Yes it’s true).”

    NO, it’s not true and I explained it once in this thread and at least 10 times in the past year.

    Obama never had “supermajorities” in the Senate.

  46. LeePHill says:

    “tommy98466 says:
    Aug. 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm Gabe… how does raising taxes create jobs? Short answer, they don’t.”

    And lowering taxes didn’t help – proof positive the unemployment gain from 4.2% to 7.9% during the Bush administration.

    In short, tax cuts don’t create jobs.

  47. LeePHill says:

    “China would collapse without American trade…. time to use the leverage.”

    And when China calls our debt in….what do we do? Thank you, Mr Bush

  48. LeePHill says:

    “he has ‘punished’ the 1%. Forget taxes, he hit them above the line.”

    This really makes no sense whatsoever. Tax rates on the wealthy have not changed during the Obama Administration. We are still on the Bush tax rates.

  49. menopaws says:

    I don’t think there are any quick solutions to this issue……And, I think the partisans need to quit sniping about it and tackle it as a serious problem that needs to be solved in a bi-partisan fashion. It took us a decade to create this mess—anyone who thinks they can snap their fingers and just make it disappear is either stupid or a liar……..The deficit is an issue, but so is revenue……Less people working, less taxes collected…..Until both sides give up some of their stridency—nothing will change. I keep waiting for Congress to behave like grown-ups and work on solving this. To be honest, this is the laziest Congress I have ever seen……We should demand some salary money back from this bunch of bozos…..

  50. FreeAmerica says:

    And when China calls our debt in….what do we do? Thank you, Mr Bush

    If China was going to call our debt they would get nothing… nada

    Rocket science… calling a note would be to force bankruptcy.

    The real issue is when they call for anythin other than the US dollar….. then we will see a collapse of both US and China.

    The easies way to buy a company is to finance them… get it

  51. CT8,
    I blame the policies of Congressional Republicans and Rpots for creating and prolonging our current economic woes.

    Let me guess – 15% for those making over $250K and $25% for those making under.

    Simply tax code – not under the Republicons who are pledged to dollar-for-dollar tax cuts so the taxes on the rich will not go up.
    Increase domestic energy production and increase export coal and refined fuels – sure why not then we can be just like the rest of the third world countries – a source for materials and a dumping ground for foreign made products.

    Tommy – raising taxes to allow the federal government to repair, replace, and modernize our public infrastructure does create jobs.

    FreeA,
    ‘Romney would get tough with China’ – sorry Old Bean – too many of the conservcons money bags have too much invested in China for that to every happen. Not to mention Presidents may talk tough but any actions have to come from Congress.

    ‘trade tariffs’ – same as above.

    ‘China would collapse without American trade’ – China does not trade with the US – they export manufactured goods for ‘American’ Companies to import.

  52. Frankenchrist says:

    George W. Bush sold $13 trillion of U.S. debt abroad including almost $2 trillion to Communist China and the repukes applaud him for selling our future.

    Mittens–a natural fawning sycophant–will grovel obsequiously before China and offshore even more American jobs to foreign workers. Romney doesn’t have the guts to represent America on the world stage. Anyone who enjoys horse ballet is not man enough for the presidency. Sorry if that offends the dancing horse fans here.

  53. harleyrider1 says:

    Regardless of who has been in office, America cannot afford to fight in Africa in four (4) countries and Iraq, Afghanistan, as we are today. Years after Bush, Obama has has there. Electing a Republican or Democrat doesn’t seem to end these president-chosen conflicts.

    We don’t have the money. And we shouldn’t be there because the President thinks so. He is just one American.

    We won WWII. It’s over. Destroy the bases, bring our troops home. Technology is so advanced today we absolutely can protect America.

    If we must go to WAR, Congress will declare it and we will be all in. All in or all out. This policing action by all Presidents should not be allowed. Congress needs to revoke that power it granted.

  54. LeePHill says:

    Free – defaulting on loans doesn’t help the US position in world economics. The devaluation of currency alone, would be interesting as those who have made money by sitting on their collective keesters would watch their fortune dwindle to nothing

  55. LeePHill says:

    http://www.fhshealth.org/Careers/

    Someone needs to research before puking up lies. Franciscan (St Joes, et al) is presently hiring 242 positions

    GH can do his own research for Multicare.

  56. LeePHill says:

    “Obama’s $787 Billion Stimulus has failed completely”

    Ask Paul Ryan about the construction and jobs that he got for his district.

  57. aislander says:

    Where was the demand for, say, the iPhone before Jobs created it? The product created the demand, and Apple’s retained resources allowed the product to be developed.

    If enough people would pay $1500 or more per phone, iPhones could be built in America, but people won’t pay that much. The iPhone would not exist except as a luxury item for the rich (if at all) if not for offshore production. Think about what jobs and wealth would be lost in the US if iPhones were not being built at all. That created wealth is what creates jobs–and not only in China.

    If you all want products such as the iPhone to be built in this country, you’d better look at tax and regulatory policies that drive production outside our borders. Or pony up the $1500…

  58. “Until such time as Obama is out of office, you won’t see any large increase in hiring.”

    Obama:
    Number of working Americans Feb 2010: 129,244,000
    Number of working Americans Jul 2012: 133,245,000
    A net INCREASE of 4 million jobs.

    Bush:
    Number of working Americans Feb 2001: 132,529,000
    Number of working Americans Jul 2004: 131,488,000
    A net DECREASE of 1.1 million, despite those Bush “job creating” tax cuts.

    http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost

  59. alindasue says:

    truthbusterguy said, “Call a Board member of either St. Joes or TG and ask them why they aren’t hiring.”

    With that line, the entire premise of you argument is invalidated.

    I went to the MultiCare site and looked up jobs. Under Nursing Opportunities, there are currently 57 job listings in Tacoma, 34 of them at Tacoma General. There are 28 physician/Mid-level provider job listings. Under the Other category, there are 124 job listings in Tacoma, 53 of them are specifically at Tacoma General. These are all new hire listings and not promotion and transfer opportunities that are all listed on a different page.
    http://www.multicare.org/home/job-search

    On the Franciscan Health site, I found 135 job listings in Tacoma, 66 of them at St. Joseph’s hospital.
    http://www.fhshealth.org/Careers/

    Both searches were just for facilities in Tacoma itself, excluding facilities in surrounding areas like Puyallup or Spanaway.

    So…why ask anyone why they aren’t hiring when it is clear by all evidence that they are, in fact, hiring? If anyone actually told you they weren’t hiring because of the costs of “Obamacare”, they obviously were mistaken.

    truthbusterguy also said in the same post, “obama and the democrats are KILLING JOBS and KILLING HIGH PAYING GOOD JOBS.”

    So, which jobs are they killing again?

  60. “The unemployment climbed from 4.2 to 7.9% after the dems took the house and senate.”

    Repeat after me: post hoc ergo propter hoc.

    Unemployment rate in Feb 2001: 4.2%
    Unemployment rate in Jul 2004: 5.9%

    In the interim, there were two tax cuts and the GOP controlled both houses of Congress.

  61. “If his policies could reverse the tide, why can’t, or didn’t, he push them further?”

    maybe because there have been 241 GOP filibusters in the Senate since Obama was sworn in.

  62. truthbusterguy says:

    alinda,

    allow me to clarify. The hospitals are hiring doctors, nurses, PA’s and etc. What they are not hiring is in almost all support service. They are contracting out these services so they don’t have to pay benefits and a lot of the nurses they hire are contract traveling nurses.

    I know for a fact what they told Kilmer because I know someone that was in the room when they told Kilmer and Seaquist that the democrats were hurting them and their ability to provide health care service to their constitutes. Why not ask your democrat heroes about this. They will either back up what I say or lie to you.

    Spin this any way you like but I know the real story. Plus a job listing only tells half of the story. There is a real reason that WA state is 36 out of 50 states with the highest unemployment numbers of 8.5%. And the democrats own this state. Put 2+2 together and it adds up to democrat failure and a lack of support for business in WA State.

  63. “There is a real reason that WA state is 36 out of 50 states with the highest unemployment numbers of 8.5%. And the democrats own this state.”

    South Carolina’s unemployment rate is 9.6%, and they have a Republican governor, a Republican lieutenant governor, and a Republican legislature. Put 2+2 together and it adds up to a republic party failure and a lack of support for business in South Carolina.

  64. aislander says:

    VERY select choice of time periods to compare unemployment rates…

    …and “in the interim” was 9/11. And if you’re going to start the clock at Feb. 2001, shouldn’t it also start Feb. 2009?

  65. alindasue says:

    oldoc said, “I ask: Then what is the definition of a credit based government? It too must be unsustainable. Does it contribute to economic bubbles?”

    A government economic system based on credit is affected by and can in turn affect economic bubbles. We’ve been especially vulnerable since 1971 when the dollar was taken off the gold standard and became purely fiat money.

    However, that is not something that can be blamed on President Obama – or President Bush, for that matter. In one way or another, our “credit based government” (operating on borrowed funds) goes back pretty much to the beginning of the nation.

    That is why they were selling “war bonds” so heavily in WWII. It gave the country an influx of cash now with the promise of paying they bond holders back with interest later. Those bonds were like “payday loans” on a national scale. (That’s why I refuse to buy government savings bonds now.)

    It would probably take complete bankruptcy and collapse of our government – and much much harder times for all of us – to change that. Unless we are all ready to make the sacrifices associated with such collapse (very heavy taxes AND very heavy cuts in basic services), then we have to deal with the “credit based government” that we have.

    However, beerBoy is right when he said, “Credit based consumerism is, by definition, unsustainable. This is why there have been so many bubbles the past three decades. This is why the economic crisis – after the housing/mortgage bubble burst – is not easily fixed.”

    We, as American people, can change credit based consumerism BUT in doing so, things will have to get worse before they get better. That’s political poison for any candidate up for election or reelection. People are impatient. They want instant results. The problem is that instant results, like instant credit, feels good but is unsustainable.

    We’re starting to get off topic here… Back to the topic of the letter. He’s correct, cutting taxes for the rich has not resulted in more jobs. Increasing taxes doesn’t create more jobs either, but at least it does help us to pay our bills as a nation.

    The only thing that creates jobs (outside of WPA type projects) is increased demand for products and services. Cutting taxes for higher income people is not going to change that.

  66. menopaws says:

    This has nothing to do with the blame game……BOTH parties need to step up to the plate and take responsibility……..Sorry, truthbusterguy—-Bush NEVER included war costs in his deficit count. Obama got nailed, quite unfairly I might add, for being honest and including those unreported costs in his deficit. He got punished for HONESTY….and that is just wrong on many levels. However, Democrats need to look long and hard at Medicare costs and start making some serious cuts in payments and doing means testing. They need to just raise the payroll deduction on both Social Security and Medicare, They need to only provide student loans for two years undergrad, and graduate school should be based on profession….We need more doctors and nurses—help them get their education……forgive part of those loans if they agree to work in rural or inner city communities for 2 years……..Republicans need to give it up and raise some revenue by raising some taxes………Government only works when both sides work together and compromise……..This blame game needs to end and soon—-this country has toooo many problems for these politicians to shout at each other endlessly while “Rome” burns.And, both parties need to kick those lobbyists out of Congress…….They ceased being part of the solution years ago. So, I am done listening to either side bash the other—-they both should hang their heads in SHAME.

  67. philichi says:

    If demand was the cause of low unemployment, why did Bill Gates create Microsoft? There was no need for all of these Windows programs.

    Oh I forgot, “He didn’t create that.” government did.

    by the way, if government spending causes growth, what happens when the money runs out? (like now)

    Do liberals, after seeing there silly plans in ruins in Greece, and here, ever give up and apologize for their policies?

  68. The second round of Bush stimulus (tax cuts) went into effect May 2003. Even if people got larger than expected tax returns in 2004, the effect would not be instantaneous.

    BHO claims he needs 8 years to make a change, but you gave Bush 15 months. Come on.

  69. MyBandito says:

    The demand for products like Windows and I-pod,pad,phone, etc. is the driving force. Many would be entrepreneurs create products that don’t generate any interest. Gates and Jobs did. Once Windows and Apple caught on Gates and Jobs were forced to employ more and more people to help fill that demand.

  70. falkoja6 says:

    Yeah but…Gates & Jobs didn’t do that on their own… The government was behind all that… no??

  71. No one is saying demand is not a driving force for a product or service.

    But, if the average joe does not have disposable cash, they cannot afford those products…

  72. “and “in the interim” was 9/11″

    Funny how you always come up with an excuse for the Republicans.

  73. “the effect [of Presidential economic policies] would not be instantaneous”

    Exactly.

    Bush’s tax cut was followed by two years of rising unemployment. Reagan’s tax cut was followed by eighteen straight months of increasing unemployment. Funny how you can excuse delays when the GOP was making policy, but not a delay when Obama makes policy.

  74. “if you’re going to start the clock at Feb. 2001, shouldn’t it also start Feb. 2009?”

    Obama:
    Number of working Americans Feb 2009: 132,837,000
    Number of working Americans Jul 2012: 133,245,000
    Still a net increase, compared to a net loss of 1.1 million in the same time-frame for Bush and the GOP.

  75. end italics

  76. MyBandito says:

    Leave the poor Italics alone. They never hurt nobody

  77. Frankenchrist says:

    lol

  78. LOL

  79. Not funny.

    BHO has had 3+ years. Bush had 2 with 9/11 as a drag. Reagan’s economy roared back.

    Stick to scaring women, the economy is a true mess.

  80. “BHO has had 3+ years. Bush had 2 with 9/11 as a drag

    9/11 was a flea-bite in terms of economic impact compared to the Great Recession. And at this point in the Bush administration, we still had a net loss of over a million jobs.

    “Reagan’s economy roared back.”

    Under Reagan, unemployment didn’t get back to where it had started until July 84 – almost four years after he was inaugurated. And the downturn then wasn’t nearly as tough as this one.

  81. philichi says:

    ehill, Leephil, I think that you really believe the nonsense that you write. I sort of feel bad for you. It is a good thing that you live in this area. (if you do) You are in the majority here. Obama may even win here.

  82. Wasn’t nearly as bad? On what scale? We are at almost four years and the only hope on the horizon is Romney. BHO has no ideas, no budget, no vision. Smooth talking will not work again.

  83. “and “in the interim” was 9/11″

    And whose fault was that….? Bush’s or his predecessor?

  84. “ehill, Leephil, I think that you really believe the nonsense that you write. I sort of feel bad for you.”

    think anyone noticed that you didn’t refute anything?

  85. “Wasn’t nearly as bad? On what scale?”

    Take your pick. GDP drop, unemployment increase, length were ALL worse.

    “We are at almost four years”

    Same thing was true with Reagan. Did you excoriate him?

  86. aislander says:

    How could there have been a demand for a device with the capabilities of the iPhone when no one but Steve Jobs imagined those capabilities?

    Your point that many products are created that don’t generate a demand merely underscores the risks that entrepreneurs take when in the process of creating wealth.

    Don’t they deserve to be rewarded and not punished?

  87. linked for frankenchrist:

    “Always keep your eye on the President of the (LDS) Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong , and you do it, the lord will bless you.”
    Source: President Marion G. Romney (of the first presidency), quoting LDS President and prophet, Heber J. Grant “Conference Report” Oct. 1960 p. 78

    http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/stephen-pizzo/45047/your-official-mormon-teaching-of-the-day

    Of course…that is not at all different than the authoritarian, conservative Catholics who misinterpret the teachings on infallibility to believe that everything the Pope (and by extension – the Church) says is infallible, even if it is clearly wrong.

  88. commoncents says:

    aislander – you’re absolutely right that innovation and creation needs to be rewarded. But we have to differentiate between those who have risked, sacrificed, created, and succeeded from those that simply risk other people’s money and time. It’s easy to gamble other people’s money…and such gambling should never be rewarded.

  89. LeePHill says:

    “philichi says:
    Aug. 21, 2012 at 4:53 pm ehill, Leephil, I think that you really believe the nonsense that you write. I sort of feel bad for you. It is a good thing that you live in this area. (if you do) You are in the majority here. Obama may even win here.”

    Yeah….it’s the kind of stuff that goes way over your head, philichi. Both “ehill” and I avoid baseless assertions and usually provide support data for our comments, unless this issue is so mainstream that only a deaf/blind person would not be aware of its presence.

    Since you are part of the 30% of Americans that hate Obama regardless of reason, the “deaf/blind” syndrome is applicable. I could post video proof of Romney shoplifting and you’d say “he didn’t do it, but Obama is a Muslim”.

    Here’s a great example of your genius, philichi:

    “If demand was the cause of low unemployment, why did Bill Gates create Microsoft? There was no need for all of these Windows programs.
    Oh I forgot, “He didn’t create that.” government did.”

    Bill Gates developed Windows. Prior to Windows there was this thing called “Apple” (Macintosh), that was kicking butt in the personal computer field, as it was user friendly. Gates’ company followed someone else’s idea. “He didn’t CREATE THAT”.

    By the way, what good would Internet Explorer be to Microsoft if the US government hadn’t stepped up to the plate on the intenet project?

    If you don’t “believe” what I’m saying….try looking it up on the intenet…thanks to the Federal Govenment

  90. Gates and Jobs built their computers completely from scratch and didn’t utilize anything from the government – including all of the computer R & D for NASA and the military – right?

  91. LeePHill says:

    I find it strange how conservatives refer to being taxed as being punished.

    That demonstrates their respect for the Constitution and their desire to use government services for free.

  92. It’s easy to gamble other people’s money…and such gambling should never be rewarded.

    Obviously you don’t understand investment models of any kind.

    If you’re referring to “rewarding” non-performing, or underperforming managers, their are laws in place that deal with that. Short of legal remedies, you can always vote with your wallet.

  93. philichi says:

    Leephil: OK lets get substantive. Our budget deficit is $1.3 trillion per year. If Obama and the Democrats raise taxes on “the rich” like he wants to, that will bring in an extra $80 billion per year. Without using the word Bush, can you explain what the Dems plan to do to deal with the other $1.22 trillion per year in deficits?

    I think that you will come to the same conclusion as the the other 270 electro college votes. It is probably time to have grown ups come back to the White House.

  94. “can you explain what the Dems plan to do to deal with the other $1.22 trillion per year in deficits”

    No rational person believes the debt can be eliminated overnight. So, do it gradually. Stimulate the economy, and then when it’s firing on all cylinders raise taxes and use the additional tax revenue to cut the deficit.

    This approach worked following WWII (and the debt was much larger), and there’s no reason to believe it won’t work now.

  95. aislander says:

    If you can make an argument that the progressive tax system DOESN’T constitute a series of ever-increasing negative incentives (that is, punishments), I would love to see it.

  96. If you can make an argument that the progressive tax system DOESN’T constitute a series of ever-increasing negative incentives (that is, punishments), I would love to see it.”

    Well, by this definition, ALL taxes are punishment. Therefore, there should be no taxation at all.

    Funny, I didn’t know you were an anarchist.

  97. philichi says:

    ehill: thank you for the non answer. Being a liberal means never having to say no to anyone or anything.

  98. aislander says:

    Of course there is a need for taxation, but a progressive system is an obvious disincentive, where a system of decreasing rates would reward productive behavior.

    In such a system, the rich would STILL pay more…

    Even better would be a consumption tax, which would really encourage growth, but a large segment of the left is opposed to growth…

  99. “a progressive system is an obvious disincentive”

    ROFL and yet we built the world’s strongest economy with a progressive tax system.

  100. “thank you for the non answer.”

    Sorry, if you call it a non-answer then you clearly didn’t understand it.

  101. aislander says:

    Our economy was strong before the advent of the progressive income tax, becoming the largest in the world at the beginning of the 20th century. We were fortunate after that, because our would-be competitors decided they would rather fight each other than compete with us.

    We had NO competition to speak of for the first fifteen or twenty years after WWII. That gave us a lot of momentum, but we have been coasting slowly downhill (as you lefties love to point out) ever since. Being the last man standing allowed us to tolerate such idiocies as 90% tax rates and the hubris of a government that believed it could regulate all the risk out of life and micromanage every industry.

    Our economy is sick now, not because of efforts to free it, but because those efforts have not been great enough to throw off the millstone that progressives have hung around our neck. We need to become competitive because we have real competition.

    But I don’t believe lefties want a growing economy for America and we will never have it until you have no more power to destroy…

  102. LeePHill says:

    After pretending that Bill Gates knew nothing about Apple/Macintosh when founding the Windows Software…not to mention the lack of acknowledgement of the government’s part in the Internet…philichi pulls this out of the southern hemisphere of his body…

    philichi says:
    Aug. 22, 2012 at 10:14 am Leephil: OK lets get substantive.”

    “Substantive” would be researching your data before commenting, phil. We already know you don’t do that…..

    Now, as I’ve said, literally hundreds of times on this and other forums….the answer to debt is a combination of spending cuts and revenue increases. Anyone that thinks they can cite all the answers here is a bigger fool than they or I think they are.

  103. LeePHill says:

    Taxation is Constitutional and those calling taxation a “punishment” are nothing short of anti-American.

  104. aislander, your idealized nostalgia for a past that wasn’t exactly the way you imagine it ignores the realities of multinational corporate “persons” that have no allegiance to national borders. In the 19th century and early 20th centuries it might make sense to talk about “we” when referring to American industry but the genie has been let out of the bottle and “freeing” up multinationals to do whatever they want is only of benefit to those corporations who will take the jobs to other countries unless we reduce ourselves to the level of the lowest 3rd world country. Hardly a recipe for American ascendance.

  105. aislander says:

    beerBoy: Your faith in the wisdom and abilities of 535 morons and thousands of lawyers to manage everyone’s business is touching, if incredibly misplaced.

    I believe Americans have the ability to succeed if they are fighting only the competitors in their industries and not our own political establishment.

    Freedom: it works every time it’s tried.

    Trouble is we haven’t tried it for far too long…

  106. aislander says:

    Are monetary fines considered punishment?

  107. aislander – your lack of faith in the system of government set up by our Founders is astonishing.

  108. “Freedom: it works every time it’s tried.”

    Yep, it’s working great in Somalia, isn’t it?

  109. Freedom: it works every time it’s tried.

    Define “freedom”.

    Does that mean free and fair elections – like in the Gaza that resulted in Hamas, or Egypt where it resulted in the Islamic Brotherhood or, to go further back, in Chile and Allende who later was assassinated in a CIA backed coup that installed the fascist Pinochet?

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