Letters to the Editor

Your views in 200 words or less

JOBS: President is outsourcing our military

Letter by Lyle Laws, Puyallup on July 6, 2012 at 12:37 pm with 122 Comments »
July 6, 2012 1:03 pm

I thought I had seen just about everything, but then on the Fourth of July, with President Obama looking on, Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano swore in 25 members of the military from 17 different countries as U.S. citizens.

It was nothing more than a show staged in an blatantly obvious attempt to recruit Latino and other minority votes in November.

I do not blame those young people for taking this route to American citizenship. I would have done the same thing, but where does it all end? In a nation of nearly 330 million people, if there are not enough citizens who will volunteer to serve in the armed forces, it is time to reinstate the draft.

It is ironic that while the president continues to complain about the outsourcing of jobs, he is outsourcing our military.

Leave a comment Comments → 122
  1. surething says:

    Another Friday, another letter from Lyle.

  2. Theefrinker says:

    You missed the important point of that last bit though as you contradicted yourself. If there aren’t enough people volunteering for the military, then “outsourcing” (enlisting new citizens) the military isn’t hurting our economy. However, the outsourcing of jobs in the private sector most certainly hurts the economy, except for the guys at the top of course.

  3. Trust the zombies to blame Obama for doing something that has gone on since the revolution.

  4. I agree Lyle, he’ll use any opportunity to get the minority vote. It’s just more of the same for this guy. Pandering nothing else.

  5. spotted1 says:

    This has been going on for years. Why does it surprise you that there would be a formal press opportunity to make the president look good?

  6. Theefrinker says:

    Why would a president try to get the minority vote? The majority vote is what wins any contest.

  7. commoncents says:

    outsourcing isn’t the same as offshoring…we have outsourced military work for years. Take the time to google the contractors that have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. At least the military provides a path to citizenship in exchange for their service. The contractors simply gambled for money and lost. But, hey, their employers reaped the benefits didn’t they?

  8. billybushey says:

    (Engage sarcasm machine here) Right-o Lyle! Why, what on earth are the Commie/Muslim/Socialist/Arab/Fascist/Foreign-Born Administration and their over-paid under-worked union subversive cohorts thinking! Holy Guns are not FOR brown people, they are to SHOOT brown people. The nerve of some people, coming here and then having the temerity to stand up for us with their lives. Us arm-chair patriots know what’s what and we just can’t stand still for this!

    While Lyle, 3rd, Truth and the others are nodding in agreement, my heart and my respect go out to these people. They took citizenship in this country so seriously and felt it was so valuable that they cashed the welcome check with their backsides. Thank you to them all and welcome to America fellow citizen!

  9. SwordofPerseus says:

    Once again Lyle’s steady diet of prejudice and misinformation has caused him to regurgitate more right-wing-wacko non-sense. I suppose I should get used to this from L.L.

    Maybe in fact, the ceremony was a demonstration to show the rest of the world that America is not exclusively populated with short-sighted, narrow-minded, bigots such as the letter writer and the collective peanut gallery. Thank you Mr. President, Happy Independence Day!

  10. menopaws says:

    Pandering?????By allowing people who serve and protect this country to become citizens????? Some of you need to get off your sofas and DO SOMETHING to serve your country……….Your citizenship is what these young people fight to protect…………Outsourcing is what some of us wish you so-called conservative patriots would do…….and just go live in some banana Republic that likes to push people around. They EARNED their citizenship as opposed to swilling beer on a sofa….They represent the best of our future and Frosty—your name represents both your past and your future. …so this time, just be quiet…Your words shame you……

  11. Fibonacci says:

    God, I really don’t want to fall into the Friday afternoon Lyle Laws attention getting post but I can’t help it. I would much rather have military men and women serving because they CHOOSE to rather than getting drafted and being FORCED to serve.

  12. Dave98373 says:

    Poor Lyle…no one is “outsourcing” our military. These newly sworn AMERICANS of the U.S. military are paid the same as any U.S serviceperson of the same rank and work under the same working conditions of the same assignment. Another lame attempt by LL to try and make a point….but thank you for the comic relief. I am still laughing how uneducated most people who opin here are!

  13. LeePHill says:

    “Another lame attempt by LL to try and make a point….but thank you for the comic relief.”

    Ditto, or should I say “diddo”?

  14. took14theteam says:

    Apparently you lived through the surgery. ;-)

    I trust it went well?

  15. lylelaws says:


    Please excuse me for not being as well educated as you must be, but I did log in seven-plus years of college and earned three degrees.

    So, if you don’t mind me asking, what are your educational bona-fides?


  16. thoughtful1 says:

    Hey Lyle, you think it will be easy to bring back the draft? It will be easier to bring back Prohibition. Not that I think (in retrospect) that the draft was all that bad. Gee, what a concept: do several years of military service for the nation in which you live as a free citizen. Face it, people: anybody can raise an all-volunteer military in peacetime. All you have to do is promise money for college. But during wartime, especially during the time of a Stupid War, very few will do it if there is a way to get a job (or citizenship, or college money) anywhere else.

  17. menopaws says:

    We have given those who serve in our military the right to citizenship for a very long time Lyle. Well before Barack Obama was President….so surprised with all your education, you did NOT KNOW THAT. My husband, the Marine,told me it has been part of military tradition since World War II……Go crack a book and learn something relevant before you write another letter. Oh, and I have a degree as does my husband…..However, the ability to LEARN is never defined by the amount of education as much as the quest for knowledge……Those who keep their minds open generally don’t need multiple degrees to succeed. Ask Bill Gates, who never graduated from college………

  18. lylelaws says:


    “Another Friday, another letter from Lyle.” Since you always send in the same line I wonder why you never step up and send in your two-cents on a subject.

    Oh, sorry I forgot, that you would have to reveal your real name.

    Have a nice day

  19. Lyle, gald to see your surgery went well. Maybe you should take some more time to recover before you try writing any more letters, because the premise of you letter is just silly at best, intellectually dishonest, and xenophobic at worst.

  20. lylelaws says:


    Thanks for the information, I didn’t know that.

    I hope I don’t offend you by saying that I agree with you, when you say, “The ability to LEARN is never defined by the amount of education as much as the quest for knowledge.”

    Many of the smartest people I have ever known didn’t finish high school let alone college.

    I honestly wasn’t trying to blow my own horn, but responding to Dave98373’s comment about “uneducated people.”

  21. bobcat1a says:

    Education is about taking all the facts and developing an opinion; it is not about having an opinion and looking for “facts” to support it. That happens sometimes because of, sometimes in spite of and sometimes in lieu of degrees and seat time in a classroom.

  22. menopaws, I served my country for a total of 43 years, 20 of them on active duty in infantry and armor. Where have you served? Or should I say “what” have you served other than yourself?

  23. took14theteam says:

    But bobcat, if you state an opinion here that is not on the left side of the aisle, you are called stupid.

  24. DevilDog2019 says:

    Just post all these idiotic ramblings on to FACEBOOK! He may get more posts!!

  25. That’s nothing new. Heck when I was in the Navy in the ’70’s we had Filipino cooks and stewards. It was one way for them to earn US citizenship and a paycheck.

  26. frosty? What gives you the right to come back from your service and turn on people? You served, thank you- now don’t be a jerk. Being a soldier is an honorable sacrifice. We have heroes everyday in all places. Humble yourself honorably please.

  27. PS to Frosty- Especially to a military wife and military families who sacrifice plenty.

  28. alindasue says:

    The Immigration and Nationality Act that allows immigrants that serve in or have served in our armed forces to pass more quickly through the citizenship process – and led to those people the president swore in as citizens on July 4th – was passed in 2002 during President Bush’s term.

    Perhaps you were too busy studying during you seven years earning three degrees to notice that fact?

    Personally, I believe that learning is something that I started long before entering school and may possibly (though I highly doubt it) end when I finally die…

    …and anyone who volunteers to serve our country’s military deserves to have their road to citizenship fast-tracked a bit.

  29. Lyle Laws of Puyallup, What are 5 y/o what rock have you been living under President Obama is not the blame for this. In fact this has been going on for years prior to Obama even thought about being President.

  30. beerBoy says:

    took – if you post an idiotic post – whether left or right – I will call your post stupid. If you have a tendency to post more stupid posts than ones that have some actual rational thought behind them then it starts to look like it is the person writing the opinions who is stupid.

    btw – while I think you sometimes post inanities, I wouldn’t call you inane. I do think your ongoing personal battles with a few of the multi-named is a colossal waste of time though.

  31. beerBoy says:

    Lyle – sorry…..this is one of your lamest letters.

    And, it is kinda counter-productive to put forward your years in college and number of degrees as evidence of your learned status followed by a post saying that some of the smartest people you know were high school drop-outs.

    took – again with the right wing persecution complex…..”those mean lefties call me stupid because I’m right”. I can see a little tweener crossing her arms, pouting her lips and stamping her foot. I always thought it was funny how “conservatives” like to claim that “liberals” don the mantel of victimhood yet they are the ever willing to claim that the whole world is against them…..

  32. menopaws says:

    Frosty—I amnot going to get into a contest over who served more with you….You said the President was “pandering” by making these soldiers citizens……YOU WERE WRONG……I know it, everyone else here knows it……….Giving these soldiers the right to be American citizens is something other Presidents have done……Your attitude was shameful regardless of how and when you served. Got it????? They have earned the right to become citizens of this country. Demeaning that to take a political shot at our President was NOT okay…..So, climb down off your cross–and learn before you speak.

  33. Military recruiters, especially the Air Force, are turning away well qualified recruits due to too many people trying to enter the force! We can’t even hire US citizens let alone foreigners!

  34. rooster_02 says:

    Lyle did state one point that I completely agree with…….reinstate the draft. Romneys boys would look good in camo and in Afganistan.

  35. FletchFFletch says:

    14 said: “But bobcat, if you state an opinion here that is not on the left side of the aisle, you are called stupid.”

    There might just be reason for that. And Lyle, three degrees in seven years? Really? That’s auce!

  36. Rooster, we have to treat women exactly the same, so I look forward to seeing Romneys kids fighting along side BHOs daughters.

  37. LeePHill says:

    “frosty says:
    July 6, 2012 at 8:44 pm menopaws, I served my country for a total of 43 years, 20 of them on active duty in infantry and armor. Where have you served? Or should I say “what” have you served other than yourself?”

    How many in combat?

    I served my country in the Washington Covert Militia we protected the State of Washington from attacks from 1969 to present. We have been 100% effective in our mission. We are so covert you don’t know we exist.

  38. Ah, the guilt of Hill’s lack of service shines through as usual.

    Menopause writes like she was in the military for the last 80 years. She has indirect connections to the service and needed to be called out it.

  39. LeePHill says:

    I served in the Washington Covert Militia.

    Only patriots know who we are.

  40. took14theteam says:

    Advice taken into consideration beerBoy, RE the multi-named. I shall attempt to count to 10 in the future.

  41. LeePHill says:

    “the multi-named”

    Self reflection.

    I’m amazed at how the right wing veterans (remember some lefties served as well) are always on the rag about anyone speaking about our country without military experience. The list of right wing spokespeople that haven’t served is long as dishonorable.

    Start with Romney who hid behind religion to avoid the draft and was in France. Dick “I had other things to do” Cheney, Rush “4-F” Limbaugh, George “MIA” W. Bush….so many non-heroes, so little time…

  42. took14theteam says:

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9……


  43. averageJose says:

    I find it more ironic that while American families suffer from lack of jobs, that Obama is perfectly happy to displace even more of them with illegals.

  44. menopaws says:

    CT7—I do have connections to the military. However, you going to call me out on my patriotism and absolute support of those who serve???? Please, bring it on………I thought all of those on the right believed in supporting the military—Once again, mouth flapping no words worth listening to…….Taking shots at me doesn’t deal with the erroneous premise of this letter, does it? The game with you is always changing the subject to get away from making a sensible argument……..

  45. sandblower says:

    Laws lies.

  46. Get off your high horse, hit ‘enter’ every now and then, and remove that big stick if you want to be taken serious.

    It is honorable that you speak highly of service, but you attempt to use your indirect connection to the military a prop.

    Hill- many (most) pols have not served, just like you. Interesting you bring up W. Recently I learned that his unit was deployed while he was in flight school and never deployed again (it was the last deployment for the type of aircraft he was trained on). Sure you don’t care because it makes your 2000 talking point look weak.

  47. If you ask me, the problem here isnt the fact that people are using the military as a means to gain citizenship, which is certainly a fair tade. The real problem is the fact that the military uses so many contractors to carry out their day-to-day support functions, when they should be using their own personnel instead. Of course that would mean a larger military, and the usual challenges that comes with. However, it would keep many more americans gainfully employed.

  48. menopaws says:

    ONce again CT7–your relevance to the letter posted???? Or do you just enjoy abusing people???? Speak to what the writer was talking about or go wave your flag somewhere else. Members of the military were given citizenship on the 4th of July….they served with honor and earned their rights……..My family has served with honor and I’m really tired of you acting like that isn’t a sacrifice for everyone involved. Go talk to the spouse of someone deployed…speak from knowledge, not your prejudice. Speak to the letter posted—just quit flapping your mouth to take shots at people…….Including this President who did the same thing that EVERY President since Harry Truman has done……..Go find someone who is interested in your cheap shots……I just find them pathetic…..

  49. MP, I do not agree with the letter. I think that non-citizens willing to fight for America is a testament to our Nation and it’s ideals.

    I have spoken out against a draft numerous times. As to military outsourcing admin/log functions and the such, it is an economic decision. Service members equal lifelong costs to govt.

    I have multiple deployments to speak of personally. My wife knows better then to claim her life choice (marrying into the military) is the same as actually serving. A spade was called a spade and now you are trying to spin. Pathetic is your writing style.

  50. Took,

    lose the blinders, people are called stupid and a whole lot more regardless of which side they are on.


    Before the jobs were taken over by Filipinos, there were reserved for Blacks.


    Your wife must be the 1 in 10,000 that would agree with you.

  51. lylelaws says:


    Just out of curiosity, without blowing the cover you hide behind, do you ever send in letters to the Tribune using your real name? I guess maybe you just prefer to hide in the shaddows and try to smear folks who will publically and openly stand behind their comments by using their actual names.

    Doesn’t “Stand up and be counted” mean anything to you?

  52. This was one of the funniest letters I’ve read in a long time. Thanks for a great laugh!

  53. lylelaws says:

    Outsourcing jobs doesn’t necessarily mean that the jobs are created in other countries. Anytime a job that could be done by an American citizen is taken by someone who is not a U.S. citizem, it amounts to outsourcing.

    Since there are nearly fifteen million illegal aliens living here and doing work that could be done by Americans (If they were willing to work), George W. Bush and President Obama have both been guilty of outsourcing jobs.

    In summary, there are fifteen million unemployed Americans and fifteen milion illegal aliens who are living here and doing jobs that U.S. citizens could be doing if they were not able live about as well by not doing them.

  54. LeePHill says:

    Lyle….why don’t you ever question conservatives about their legal names versus their monikers?

    If you are really concerned about illegal workers in America, quit looking at the President (Bush or Obama) and start looking at the corporations that are using illegal workers to break unions. The meat packing industry is a great place to start.

    And NOW…for the irony of the blogs:

    “CT7 says:
    Pathetic is your writing style.”

    How Shakespearian!

    Then there is….

    “frosty says:
    July 5, 2012 at 11:41 am LeePHill, why do you liberals always have to bring up a person’s race?”

    “frosty says:
    July 6, 2012 at 2:24 pm I agree Lyle, he’ll use any opportunity to get the minority vote.”

    You just can’t make up stuff like this….

  55. LeePHill says:

    Now…as to “outsourcing jobs”….let’s take a peek at Lyle’s choice for the upcoming presidential election….


  56. http://m.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-outsourcer-overreach/

    And time for the truth. Come on Hill, be better.

    A candidate that has worked, hustled and proved himself to be wildly successful in the business world vs BHO. No credentials, no history of success minus a few popularity contests.

  57. lylelaws says:


    I have to think the TNT doesn’t want to discourage people who want to comment but might not be comfortable doing so if they had to worry about some kind of retribution, and I can understand that.

    However I really do not understand why you have changed your handle so many times, and continue to do so since we all know who you are.

  58. menopaws says:

    CT&–I feel for your spouse……Military or not–you are a bully……Those who serve carry a lot of integrity and dignity in their stature….Living by a code of conduct…did you miss that class?

  59. A “bully”? This is a digital forum with most posting under made-up names. Come on. Just because I do not tolerate stupidity, your bitterness, or Hill’s lies does not make me a bully.

    You missed the class on acting like a lady. You also skipped every English course after your ABCs.

  60. beerBoy says:

    Lyle – As I no longer live in Tacoma I do not feel it appropriate to write letters to the editor to the TNT. I have and do have letters published in local papers in the towns that I have lived in.

  61. averageJose says:

    Anybody else catch the new Obama podium bumper sticker slogan?

    “Betting on America” LMAO.

  62. Fibonacci says:

    “A job that could be done my an American citizen is taken by someone who is no a US citizen”. You mean like asparagus cutters, and fruit pickers in Eastern Washington? The farmers themselves admit that people from here won’t do the work. Please don’t give me crap about the unemployed doing it, it won;t happen. If it did, you could double or triple the cost of fruit and vegetables. Have YOU ever tried to earn a living that way?

  63. beerBoy says:

    Jose now?

    Since both Parties support Speculator Capitalism funded by debt, the slogan seems appropriate.

  64. lylelaws says:


    As a matter of fact I and all of the members of my family of nine (I was the youngest) picked everything that grew on trees, vines or in fields when I grew up in the town of Zillah in the Yakima valley.

    Do you really think that if all of the illegals somehow disappeared that the crops would no longer be harvested?

    If might cost shoppers a little more but that would help the folks who harvested the crops and greatly cut down the number of families that buy their food with food stamps.

    And by the way, we felt that we were lucky to be able to do that work.

    Have you ever done any work that got dirt under your nails and made you sweat to feed your family?

  65. Dave98373 says:

    You seem to enjoy gloating and bragging about your personal accomplishments and your resume several times in the past. Are we now supposed to take your word as gospel since you have all this purported education qualifications? The fact that you supposedly have all that education is what makes this letter even more odd as it is not even close to the truth and is poorly written. My advice…go back to school.

  66. lylelaws says:


    If you happen to have an extra thousand dollars lying around, I will be more than happy to bet you that everyting I have said is true.

    Well? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?

    Among other things I taught English along the way, so I would appreciate it if you would enlighten me about how my letter was so poorly written.

    I am always willing to learn.

  67. beerBoy says:

    lyle – so you worked the fields as a kid….so did I….so?

  68. Dave98373 says:

    To the education egghead who writes about outsourcing without even knowing what the word means—go back to summer school! Or for the uber-thrifty…go to wikipedia or Webster’s.

  69. aJo,

    First, these were not illagals they are no American Citizens with all the duties and resposciblities of Native Born Citizens, save only Native Born may run for President or Vice President.

    Second, how do you feel about the un-american corportions sending hundred of thousands of US jobs overseas, and the un-american lap dog republicons who helped them, and are no blocking efforts to return some jobs the the US?

  70. lylelaws says:


    Why did I mention that I grew up working in the orchards and fields? Because Fibonacci asked if I had.

    By the way, every week there are letters sent to the Tribune that are printed online or in the paper from people who do not live in Tacoma, so although you would have to disclose your real name, I am sure that you would be welcome to participate.

  71. lylelaws says:


    Go to summer school? Been there, done that, but I said that giving jobs to illegal aliens living in America amounts to outsourcing because it takes away jobs that Ameicans could and would be doing if they didn’t think that they could live about as well without working.

  72. lylelaws says:


    I really don’t know what you are trying to say, Do you?

  73. BORG, I would like to see some support for your statement: “Military recruiters, especially the Air Force, are turning away well qualified recruits due to too many people trying to enter the force! We can’t even hire US citizens let alone foreigners!”

    The way I understand it, and based on limited research on line, qualificatins have been tightened, but no one is turned away who is qualified. There is sometimes a long waiting period between signing up and active duty, more or less depending on type of training requested and the branch of service.

    Qualified means, among other things, being in the country legally with a visa that allows you to work (@average Jose).

    I read the biographies of some of the people Obama was pictured with. Several were from Puerto Rico and had been in the National Guard waiting for their active duty to commence.

    There is no comparison between these excellent recruits and the sorry lot that were often included in the draft during Viet Nam.

    Personally I think we can become stretched too thin very quickly, but I would shudder to think what had happened in the world if we ever needed to reinstitute a draft.

  74. Dave98373 says:

    “Go to summer school? Been there, done that, but I said that giving jobs to illegal aliens living in America amounts to outsourcing because it takes away jobs that Ameicans could and would be doing if they didn’t think that they could live about as well without working.”

    You still do not understand outsourcing. Military jobs of equal pay and work do not qualify as outsourcing. These AMERICANS serving in the United States Armed Forces are not aliens, they are AMERICANS! You need to take a week off of TNT letters.

  75. averageJose says:

    Forgot my password while in Hawaii on vacation… no internet. ;)

    So Obama gets a gold star for honesty. He’s betting our children’s future that 4 more years of his reckless overspending will somehow end up different than all the other times it’s been tried.

  76. sandblower says:

    aJ, there is strong emperical evidence that deficit spending is a proper response to a struggling economy. Obana gets a gold star for trying and the republicans get a black star for standing in the way. Too bad most voters have no clue about all that.

  77. sandblower says:

    Laws says: “Go to summer school? Been there, done that, but I said that giving jobs to illegal aliens living in America amounts to outsourcing because it takes away jobs that Ameicans could and would be doing if they didn’t think that they could live about as well without working.”

    False, false, false. Laws lies again.

  78. lylelaws says:


    Would you please explain to me why people who are already Americans would have to be sworn in as U.S. citizens?

  79. lylelaws says:


    As I offered to do with Dave98373, if you would like to put your money where you mouth is, I will bet you a thousand dollars that I have never made any false comments when writing a Letter to the Editorial department of the Tribune or when commenting online.

    Want to bet or you just blowing smoke rather than sand?

  80. Lyle, what post are you having problems with?

  81. gowenray says:

    So, I guess the “Law of Lyle” is that our Country (and its allies who also believe in governments that ensure freedom from fear, and freedom for education and opportunity) should police those countries who suppress freedom and opportunity with a force of what?

    Lyle, our military, just like our internal police forces, are composed of folks of various ethinic backgrounds who believe in what they’re enforcing. They do that based on their oath and sense of honor. And, God-forbid they would fail to also recognize they’re protecting those with a prejudiced and narrow-minded point of view like yours!

  82. lylelaws says:


    I realy don’t understand the point you were trying to make in your first paragraph. Please explain.

    Also, as to me being prejudiced and having a narrow-minded point of view, have you noticed how quickly some people resort to playing the race card when they have nothing logical to say in a discussion?

  83. lylelaws says:


    I was referring to your July 7, 5:14 PM comment. Go back and read it again.

  84. lyle, for all of your education, you and several others on this thread still don’t know the difference between illegal and legal immigrants. People sworn into the military must have permanent residency status and have permission to work in the USA. They can’t be on tourist visas or any of the other legal ways of being in the USA.

    Besides citizens, lawful permanent residents, and certain nationals of three countries in free association with the United States — the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, and Palau — are eligible for military service.

    (And, you do know that Canadians, people from Mexico and many people from all of the Americas can call themselves “American”).

  85. Harry_Anslinger says:

    Maybe he should have hung a ‘mission accomplished’ banner in the background?

    The Bush/Cheney administration giving out a 300 million dollar contract to Brown and Root to handle base operations let’s say in Saudi Arabia or Iraq and they in turn sub out the work to various Indonesian, Indian, or other non-American companies and workers and make $100 million off of US taxpayers to not even do the actual work that is outsourcing military operations. Multiply that example by a thousand times and you start to get a basic idea of how much profit we have given to the Haliburtons, Bechtels, Cheney buddies et.al. And we still give out billions in no-bid contracts to private corporations who don’t actually work, they keep the buck but pass the work on to other countries.

    So you were actually whining about an Obama photo op, not ‘outsourcing’ of military operations.

  86. menopaws says:

    CT7–Now abusing Dave…………Anyone who disagrees with you is treating to name-calling and verbal abuse….Yet, no arguments based on fact or knowledge………..I really am NOT impressed by your insults……..Generally the biggest mouths have the smallest mind.s…Every posting you prove it………I don’t plan on crying myself to sleep over your insults……Just remember—karma is a real bitch!

  87. lylelaws says:


    If you will go back and read my letter, you will find that I didn’t say that illegal aliens or legal aliens were taking jobs Americans could be doing, but non-citizens.

    America may need many things but that doesn’t include new citizens who can bring in other familiy members……

    At a time when millions of U.S. citizens can not find work why should we allow a million people who are desperate for work to come here every year and compete for the ever-shrinking number of jobs available?

  88. lylelaws says:


    Actually, I was whinning about the pandering photo op and the fact that non-citizens are taking jobs that Americans could and should be doing, Harry.

  89. beerBoy says:

    There are approximately 31,000 active-duty military personnel who are legal residents but not U.S. citizens. Some of those are doctors/nurses and/or speak languages that are seen as beneficial by the Pentagon so they are specifically recruited.

  90. lyle, since no US citizen is being turned away from joining the military, then I don’t see any problem. No non-citizen is taking a single job away from a citizen, so all I can see in your comments is a totally irrational rant based on fear or loathing of legal residents.

    Or, do you base it on BORG’s totally false claim or the facts I presented?

    Oh, I forget, based on your previous letters you are one of the “hate the facts, cling to false conspiracy theories kind of guys”.

  91. gowenray says:

    I’m sorry Lyle, I should know better than to argue with a malevolent mind. You my friend are the best reason America needs an opposing political party.

  92. lylelaws says:


    “Malevolent” Wow, that’s quite an impressive word, but since I don’t know if it means good or bad, let me just tell you that I am certainly proud that someone of your obviously great intellectual capacity would consider me to be the best reason for something.

    Thank you so much.

  93. lylelaws says:


    Conspiracy theories? Which conspircay theories are we talking about?

    You may not belive this but I don’t hate the facts.

    As some sage once said: “Nothing is sadder than watching the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts.”

    Thanks for listening.

  94. bobcat1a says:

    To those comparing noncitizen soldiers to the practice of outsourcing, I have a question, to wit: does the US military pay less to noncitizen soldiers so they can save money through lower wages? If not, then you have missed the point of outsourcing or offshoring, if you will.
    Lyle, try to imagine you are laid off, have a mortgage, a wife and two kids in school, and live in oh, let’s say Minneapolis or Cleveland. Can you realistically go to Zillah and take a job picking vegetables and expect to be better able to pay your bills? And when do you suppose you could spend time looking for a living wage job from a picker’s camp on the road? Life is way more complicated than the conservative talking points want to acknowledge. It’s not 1935 or 1955 any longer and never will be.

  95. LeePHill says:

    CT needs to stop using politifact or at least read the copy. It supports everything he is usually against.

    “In ruling on Huffington’s statement, we find much in the public record to support her statement, most notably the Justice Department lawsuit. Certainly there have been hundreds of millions of dollars that Halliburton’s KBR attempted to charge the government that have been denied. Government audits of KBR’s work in Iraq will likely continue for some time, and we do not expect a final accounting on these fronts anytime soon. Huffington glossed over some of these points in her back and forth with Liz Cheney. There’s also much evidence that makes us believe that hundreds of millions of dollars were lost to waste and inefficiency, not deceitful fraud. So we rate Huffington’s statement Half True.

  96. LeePHill says:

    I wonder how the Natives of the Pacific Northwest felt about the “non-citizens” coming here and taking of their jobs.

    There’s a story for you, Lyle. I’ll expect that and something about conservatives using monikers in your letter next Friday.

  97. What a selective cut and paste Hill, shame on you. What billings did the US deny? For security of their employees.

    Not saying it is right or wrong, but certainly not as evil as the left wants it to be.

    And I appreciate the facts. I picked a centrist website that had interesting facts to support both political leanings. You will never understand.

  98. So, CT7, are you then endorsing the hundreds of millions of dollars, even several billions (half) of waste, inefficiency or (half) fraud in the no-bid contracts Cheney pushed for a company he was heavily invested in? (The “half” is in deference to Politifact, while finding that Huffingtons statements were factually correct, the label of fraud concerned them, even though several Congressional committes had labeled the activites as such.

    I can’t quite tell where you are coming from. If bilking the US tax payer out of hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars isn’t “evil” to a conservative, then I must have my definitions wrong, even if a Republican administration authorized the payments.

  99. scott0962 says:

    Of curse it was political theater but if they served honorably in this country’s armed forces they’ve not only earned the right to be citizens, they have chosen to become Americans understanding both the privileges and responsibilities that entails–unlike a lot of people who just happen to be born here.

  100. LeePHill says:


    It’s the synopsis of the issue! Someone needs a reading course.

  101. LeePHill says:

    Interesting how, when Halliburton is caught trying to defraud the government, it’s not fraud because they didn’t get away with it.

  102. Lyle, three degrees and you can’t handle two missing ‘W’s’?

    1. “First, these were not illegal’s, they are NOW American Citizens . . .

    (Lyle – FYI – only legal immigrants can file for and receive US Citizenship)

    2. “. . . un-american lap dog repubicons who helped them and are NOW blocking efforts to return some jobs to the US?”

    Lyle you claim to have ‘never made a false statement in a letter’

    What about the whopper “the [President] is outsourcing our military.”

    ‘malevolent . . . don’t know if it means good or bad’ Just what are your three degrees in and what school are they from?

  103. Tuddo- when I see you or Hill concerned about waste in the stimulus or food stamps, then I will care about Halliburton charging the US to protect its employees in a combat zone.

    It (the alleged over billing) was for security and items requested by commanders on the ground. Are you outraged (or even care)?

    This is a 2004 boogieman issue. Sad that this is what left cares about. Not the $800 bil wasted BY THE MAN UP FOR RE-ELECTION. Not the insane % of the population living off the teat, or those suddenly ‘disabled’. Sorry kids, but Cheney is not running for office. Sorry, but BHO continued to pay KBR (no longer connected with Halliburton).

  104. Tuddo- the half reference was in regards to her statement. Why lie and imply state ‘half’ referred to anything greater then the scope of Huff’s comment? Typical.

  105. dankuykendall says:

    was passed in 2002 during President Bush’s term.

    My fathers platoon medic in Vietnam was a Dutch citizen and was drafted here as a student in 1966. He was stripped of his citizenship by the Dutch in 1967 while he was in Vietnam because he was there in our military. Yes, he was fast-tracked for his citizenship, but as soon as he was sworn in he was on a chopper back to the bush (that is the jungle, not the President.)
    So I guess that President Bush was not the first and will not be the last. If they are willing to fight for this country, they should be more than good enought be citizens.

  106. jtarleton says:

    The outsourcing started in ernest during the Bush Administration with Blackwater/Halliburton and the like and will continue because it reduces government liabilities and provides revenue to those providing campaign contributions and writting legislation which favors their business and industry. With 900 military bases worldwide we’d be spending less in the short run if support was provided by military personnel but it would cost us more in the long run with all the GI benefits recieved by veterans.

  107. lylelaws says:


    I don’t lie about the facts and I don’t try to fault people based on spelling, punctuation, sentence structure or word usage, and have criticized others for doing so, because “eye due sum awl ov thu thyme two”

  108. However, your ‘Obama out sourcing the military’ comment is not true.

    Therefore, your ‘never made a false statement in a letter’ comment is also not true.

    CT7 – what I am outraged about is the most of the items Halliburton / KRB provided, arrived late, in insufficient quantities, were faulty, substandard, dangers, and overpriced.

    ‘Obama continued’ another failed attempt at right wing deflection.
    KBR had a valid contract. (Albright an old boy, no bid, no lose contract from Cheney).

    The contract remained in force after Cheney/Bush left office.

    As long as Congress continued to allocate funds for the contract, the federal government was required turn the money over to KBR..

    The fact that Obama is the President has absolutely nothing to do with KRB getting its underserved funds.

  109. lylelaws says:


    There is a difference between a fact and an opinion, and the fact is that allowing non-citizens to do work Americans citizens could doing amounts to the outsourcing of jobs, and that is not just my opinion but a fact.

  110. Lyle – you are demonstrating classic circular logic by making an assertion (non-citizen soldiers is equivalent to outsourcing), supporting your original assertion with a restatement of your original assertion (see post above) and then being satisfied that you have proven your original assertion (“that is not just my opinion but a fact.”)

    Since the definition of outsourcing is contracting tasks to an outside company, hiring Haliburton and Xe to do jobs that the US military used to do is an example of outsourcing. That is fact.

  111. LeePHill says:

    “CT7 says:
    July 9, 2012 at 8:48 am Tuddo- when I see you or Hill concerned about waste in the stimulus or food stamps, then I will care about Halliburton charging the US to protect its employees in a combat zone.”

    OK. I think stimulus money to states whose governors then complain about the stimulus money is a waste. Those states whose Congressional reps were seen in pictures with stimulus checks and then complained about the stimulus was also waste.

    There is no waste in food stamps, unless you can prove otherwise.

    I still doubt that you care about Halliburton fleecing the military. You call it “free enterprise”.

  112. LeePHill says:

    Yeah….Lyle missed the boat entirely on this one. Not one of the GIs who got their citizenship on July 4th were illegal.

    Anything to complain about Obama.

    Should we check July 5, 2008 to see if Lyle issued an LTE about Bush’s citizenship ceremony?

  113. lylelaws says:


    Whatever you say bB. I would never get into a dispute about logic (circular or otherwise) with you.

    I know better than to take a knife to a gunfight.

  114. CT7, it is obvious that you neglected to read Politifact’s article. They stated Huffington’s facts were absolutely 100% true. It was the use of the term “fraud” why they only gave it half truth. They did not think a person should use that term, since it had legal implications and the legal process was not complete (still isn’t).

    To most of us, if it looks like a duck, etc. etc., so I think the statement was 100% true, but I went along with Politifact just for the sake of argument.

    I read Politifact not to look at their truth scale, which is just an opinion by an editorial staff, but their fact-checking. Are the facts there or not?

    Hufffington’s statistics were 100% accurate.

  115. Now, where is your fact check for Obama “wasting’ $billion (where, when, on what, and why is it waste?)

    Or facts on people with disabilities?

    Or facts on why people are out of work (Republican-policy-caused depression) and need to rely on a safety net to even survive during this Conservative-caused depression.

  116. Tuddo, if you have had your head in the sand for the last 3-50 years I cannot help you out on a blog.

    If the media you watch, read, or listen to has not informed you recent explosions in entitlement numbers (as a percent of population), you need to branch out.

    Stimulus waste? If you can read this your Internet works, try google. Start easy, like green projects, then dig deeper. Enjoy. If the fact that federal monies subsidized Justin Biebers car does not bother you, well…

    Last point, next time either of you whine about partisan anything, look at my comments connected to the link. Just attempted to get facts on the table, you kids went right back to rhetoric. I read the article and saw the game that was played. It was a billing dispute over security for company workers and work performed at the request of ground commanders. That can be debated as a legitimate cost to the US, but you do not care. It doesn’t fit into a short soundbite involving Halliburton (that no longer owns KBR anyway).

  117. Lyle,
    The truth is illegal’s take jobs that Citizens won’t, and accept lower wages than citizens will.

    If you really want to do something about illegal workers go after the companies and individuals who hire them. Say to the tune of $100K per illegal employed, and six months in jail for individual employers, or six months suspension of all business and professional licenses.

  118. lylelaws says:


    Sure, I will go along with curbing or stopping peoplew from hiring illegal works. But who would do the work them? The American citizes that you said wouldn’t do them of course. If it came down to “If you don’t work you don’t eat” you would be surprized by how many folks would gladly harvest crops.

  119. Lyle, remember the harvest apples or welfare threads a few months back? Progressives screamed excuse after excuse why those on the teat should not have to work. Scary, and a product of good intentions (emotion) over reason, human nature, and responsibity.

  120. Lyle – ever hear of a food riot?

    CT7- what we were trying to show is the reality behind the ‘make them work’ talking point.

  121. CT7, you forget that what some of us argued points about harvesting apples and working in jobs that don’t exist based on facts that you continue to ignore and instead use myth, fear-mongering, labels and prejudice instead of reason to make your case.

    I do not agree that children under 12 (the largest group on welfare) should be forced to leave school and harvest apples or people with disabiltiies who have been determined not able to work (the second largest number of people on welfare). Perhaps you do, just to punish them for their situation in life. Very Dickensian period of you.

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