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ABUSE: Hold teachers to a higher standard

Letter by Colin Guthrie, Puyallup on July 6, 2012 at 4:56 pm with 70 Comments »
July 6, 2012 4:56 pm

I notice those teachers charged with crimes against children are getting off very easily in court.

Numerous cases show former teachers charged with sex crimes are given lighter sentences. One female teacher was originally charged with sexual misconduct with a minor but was able to plea down to fourth-degree assault. A male teacher was originally charged with first-degree rape but was able to get a a sentence of seven months in jail with three years as a registered sex offender.

These are two of several cases I know involving teacher misconduct in which the teacher did not get the same type of sentence everyone else might receive. What I also notice is female teachers are given lighter sentences than males.

What I think needs to be done is to hold teachers to a higher standard than others because they are trusted individuals.

Leave a comment Comments → 70
  1. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Public school teachers are not even held to the same standard as other people. Tacoma School Teachers participated in an illegal strike, defied a Superior Court and who was held accountable?

    No one.

    Who lost pay because of the strike? Cooks, bus drivers and others, but not the teachers.

    Did the teachers even have their pay delayed? No, they complained and were paid on schedule.

    Should we hold teachers to a higher standard?

    It doesn’t appear teachers are even held to the same standard as the rest of us.

  2. Fibonacci says:

    HOw many times have YOU been convicted of molestation? I notice you wand the teachers held to the same standard as YOU.

    When people say “held to a higher standard” what exactly does that even mean. Do you want punishment to be determined by a persons JOB? Don’t get me wrong, a teacher that is guilty of sexual misconduct deserve the full punishment of the law, but then I want ALL child molesters to be held to that same level.

    By the way, what the hell does the Tacoma teachers strike have to do with this. Did this woman rape this boy because she was on strike? But just to ease your mind, the cooks, bus drivers, and others, are paid for the days they work, just like teachers. Since the days were made up, they did not in fact lose any pay. And no, I am NOT a Tacoma teacher.

  3. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Fibby: Read closely….

    Breaking the law is breaking the law. One reason teachers and their union strike is because they think there is nothing to lose and there will be no accountability. Teachers also believe the public will just forget about them when levy time rolls around.

    Obviously, I have hope this does not occur.

  4. Dave98373 says:

    BigSR- Stop bringing unions into the debate. If you have followed the teacher-student rapes across America, you will have learned that this type of behavior is going on in all states…union and non-union school districts alike. I don’t care under what set of circumstances led to student-teacher sex. These teachers that choose to rape and molest our children are predators and criminals. They deserve to be treated as such.

  5. Unions protect these miscreants. There’s no getting around it. Abolish the NEA, WEA and any other public sector union. They work for the taxpayer, not the other way around.

  6. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Thanks frosty, it appears some folks still think teachers deserve special privileges, especially the teachers themselves.

  7. cclngthr says:

    Unions, by the way, try to keep that pervert teacher in the classroom by arguing that the abuse never happened through union lawyers.

    Other people don’t have access to an array of lawyers at their disposal.

    That being said, if you are accused of a sex crime, there is a likelihood that you placed yourself in a position where it is easier to accuse you of that crime. Teachers are trained in boundary invasions and how to avoid misconstrued ideas.

  8. cclngthr says:

    The key here is teachers fall into a category of trusted individuals who are trusted by society to have unsupervised access to kids in a form of work. A teacher is supposed to go to work to teach kids, not to target kids for sex.

  9. cclngthr says:

    One thing with teachers and other “trusted individuals” is they use that position of a teacher as a means of targeting kids.

  10. beerBoy says:

    There is a tendency of treating child rape of boys by women as some sort of rite of passage rather than the crime that it is. On that level the letter’s point about women getting lesser sentences seems to ring true.

    The bit about teachers getting lighter sentences than other child rapists – I would have to see some serious data to support that claim. Rape is a difficult crime to prove and child rape oftentimes has nothing other than the purported victim’s testimony to build a case upon. Plea bargains are used as ways to get a conviction when it would be difficult, costly and sometimes rather uncertain that the prosecution would get a conviction for the more serious charge.

  11. beerBoy says:

    ccingthr – trusted individuals are, by far, the largest group that rape children. That includes family, friends, priests, baby-sitters, teachers. To introduce a special class of extra punishment based upon trusted individual status seems redundant to the nature of the crime.

  12. Parent(s), gardian(s) need to teach kids early about adult preditors. Especially wolfs in sheeps clothing! Immediately contact the police!

  13. FletchFFletch says:

    BigR, I don’t want to rain on your politicized parade, but teacher strikes are not illegal per se. Judges have ruled at times that they have to report back to work, but there is no statute against striking. I know that doesn’t fit your agenda, but hey, why let facts get in the way of a good rant, right?

  14. LeePHill says:

    “frosty says:
    July 6, 2012 at 8:39 pm Unions protect these miscreants.”

    This is stupid. And I’m being nice when I say that.

    A rape case is handled by the law and has nothing to do with unions.

  15. averageJose says:

    Maybe some people have negative opinions about teacher’s unions because of the unsuccessful attempt to pass California Senate Bill 1530 (for example).



  16. normajean says:

    I will repeat the above. Unions have nothing to do with defending someone who has broken the law. Lest we forget, someone charged with such a crime does not mean that they are guilty. Being charged & being found guilty are not the same. If found guilty they are sentenced according to what the law dictates and within the judge’s discretion.

  17. cclngthr says:


    Rape/molestation should not be that hard to prove/disprove, particularly with forensic evidence, which now is part of the investigation process.

    When my brother was convicted of incest, a large part of that case involved hearsay testimony, and testimony involving a young child. Descriptions given to investigators and the court showed enough evidence shows a young child knowing more about the issue than they should have coupled with extreme fear of an individual or more than one individual who has touched that kid.

    Today, coupled with that verbal testimony, there is forensic evidence of such touching. Sexual assault clinics have the tools to examine the areas for such anomalities and other evidence showing tears, or differences that should not be there. When my nephews ex wife accused him of molestation, the kids had to go through forensic exams to determine if the abuse did occur, coupled with independent interviews that showed what exactly happened. In this case, the ex wife was trying to prove he molested them, and interviews with the kids and evidence showed the abuse never happened.

  18. cclngthr says:


    When a person uses their job position of teacher/priest, etc. to target kids is what I have a HUGE issue with. Their job exposes them to kids, and when that person picks a kid from that environment they get paid to work with, to do things they should not; is where they should be held to this much higher standard and the sentence should show predatory elements. Lets take 2 teachers for example, Shaw and McDonald. Shaw targeted a student where McDonald targeted his step children (public records show this information). Since Shaw used her job to target her student for sex, she should be held to a standard slightly higher than McDonald (also high due to him being a teacher) since he molested a family member.

    It is becoming very irritating for a person to insinuate “I’m a teacher, I don’t do this kind of thing” when in fact it is very common to see teachers doing it.

    One problem I do see, is the state Supreme Court ruled in the Rice case that if the predatory aspect is mandatory rather than voluntary/up to the prosecutor to decide, it would be unconstitutional if the mandatory predatory aspect were in place. I think, with teachers and like people; particularly if they target a person through their job position to get to the kid, they are automatically predatory in nature because that job places them in a position which they use to target the kid.

  19. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Fletch: Is defying a Pierce County Superior Judge’s order legal? Facts are stubborn things, dude.

  20. Fibonacci says:

    ‘You are able to read to the point that you understand that the letter deals with child rape not teacher strikes. When you say breaking the law is breaking the law, technically you are correct. Do YOU ever exceed the speed limit? That IS breaking the law but hardly in the same category as, say, murder. Are you saying that child rape and teacher strikes are equivalent?

    Teacher unions protect a PROCESS, not an individual. In this country anyone that is accused of a crime is entitled to legal representation. THAT is what the union provides, sorry to as was said earlier” rain on your pride” but teacher unions do NOT “protect” the guilty. Why is is so hard for righties to understand that teachers don’t want bad teachers to be in the profession.

    You STILL have not made clear what is means for teachers to be held to a higher standard. You must be a poor teacher if you can’t explain yourself any better. Do you mean harsher punishment? Do you mean less evidence to convict? What is is you DO mean when you say a higher standard. I KNOW they are “trusted individuals”, but I want to know what YOU mean by “held to a higher standard”–try to make it clear will you” Try to “educate” me.

  21. beerBoy says:

    cc – so….yer saying that it is less of a betrayal of trust when your brother rapes your daughter than when a teacher does it.

  22. Fibonacci says:

    THAT is exactly what I have been asking good old ccingthr. He must be a poor teacher, he answers questions more like a politician. He answers what he wants to hear himself say regardless of the question.

  23. cclngthr says:


    I feel teachers who use their position to target kids should get a more severe punishment, because they used that position of teacher to target that child for sex. If the standard sentence is 10 years (an example), if a teacher targets a student, and is convicted of that crime, because the teacher targeted the student, there can be no plea downs, and the sentence is longer than the standard 10 year sentence.


    The issue of trust with a family member is different than a teacher, and that level of trust can be much lower by active choice with the family member.

    Example, I would not allow any family member to go into a private area of the house, such as a child’s bedroom, or near a bathroom when a child is in that room. I also would not allow that family member to transport my child alone; nor would I allow my child to visit the home of that family member alone.

    With the teacher, it is assumed trust where that person would have assumed trust, due to the position they hold. That teacher would automatically be allowed to be with the child alone or with another child in a room, or if the child needs toileting assistance, that person would automatically have trust to go in that room to assist in toileting that child. A family member would not have automatic assumed trust.

  24. cclngthr says:

    Would I trust a family member over a teacher? With a teacher, I would have to trust them more because they have a responsibility to do that job as teacher, to be with my kid alone and without problems. With a family member, I make the choice whether, or not I should trust them and can decide what level of trust I want to use. With a teacher, I don’t have much choice what level of trust to use.

  25. cclngthr says:

    Beerboy assumes the family member would have more trust than a teacher. I see it differently. With family members, or other people, what level of trust is dependent upon the person and whether they are comfortable with having that person unrestricted access to the kid. If a person is not comfortable with their brother having access to their child, that person can restrict that brother through various means from accessing that child alone. Violations of trust is easily fixed by severely restricting access to that child very quickly.

    With a teacher, that level of trust is preset and cannot change. That teacher would have an assumed trust level that can be higher than what a person would give them privately. A parent might be uncomfortable with a teacher or staff member toileting a child, but that teacher still could toilet that child even when the parent is uncomfortable with it.

  26. beerBoy says:

    cc – bs.

    The penalty for child rape should be high – no matter if it is a teacher, priest, doctor, family member, friend, or stranger.

    To single out teachers as a group is useless and only increases the clear signal being sent by society that teachers are not to be respected nor trusted.

    Regarding your thought that a family member would not be as trusted as a teacher one barely knows….that says more about your family than anything else.

  27. normajean says:

    There sh not be a higher standard period. You rape a child you sh be punished whether you are a teacher, Dr, policeman or family member. Everyone is to some degree in a position of trust. So it makes no sense to penalize a person based on level of trust which may be more for 1 person and less for another.

  28. Dave98373 says:

    A liberal institution and liberal TNT defends a teacher raping a child over many years. Yet, it crucifies any priest over any allegation of molestation. Gotta love the fairness of the press !!!

  29. averageJose says:

    Q – is the brother being paid by tax payers?

  30. sandblower says:

    So two example make a trend among thousands or even hundreds? Stupid!

  31. cclngthr says:

    While the penalty for child rape, by any person should be high; HOWEVER, with a family member, or a person who is not a teacher; friend or whoever, you can choose what level you want to trust them with your kid at. You cannot with a teacher.

    In sense, can you choose the level of trust with:

    Family, friend, neighbor? Yes you can choose the level of trust.
    Teacher? No, you cannot choose the level of trust.

    In sense, you could reduce the chances of rape by family/friends by limiting access to the kid. With a teacher, you cannot. it is a gamble there.

  32. cclngthr says:

    That level of trust can control access to the kid. Theoretically, if you mistrust a person with your kid, you reduce the chances of rape or assault on the kid by not letting your kid around them, particularly alone.

    I was raised and told as a kid not to get into any car with anyone except my parents. Same with my bedroom. Parents had access to the bedroom, but friends, particularly older teenage/adult friends were not allowed in the bedroom.

  33. alindasue says:

    beerBoy said, “Regarding your thought that a family member would not be as trusted as a teacher one barely knows….that says more about your family than anything else.”

    I agree.

    cclngthr said, “Theoretically, if you mistrust a person with your kid, you reduce the chances of rape or assault on the kid by not letting your kid around them, particularly alone…

    Parents had access to the bedroom, but friends, particularly older teenage/adult friends were not allowed in the bedroom.”

    Children are just as likely to be sexually assaulted by a parent as they are to be assaulted by a teacher or a priest. In fact, it happens often enough in our society that we have a special word for it: incest.

    By your reasoning, our children should be taught to “mistrust” everyone. If we kept children from every situation where there has ever been a case of sexual assault, then by your reasoning we should not even leave children alone with their own parents.

    The fact is that most children who are assaulted are assaulted by people that they know and trust. That may be a teacher, a priest, a close family friend, or even a parent. When that happens trust is violated just as much by assailing parent as it would be in the case of the teacher. (People have more choice in their teachers than they do in picking their parents…)

    Yes, punish a teacher who sexually assault a child harshly AND punish anyone else who would sexually assault a child just as harshly.

  34. MililaniJag says:

    Why do female teachers consistently receive lenient sentences compared to male teachers? Sex discrimination? NOW, ACLU etc. conspicuously absent?!?! Where is the “mainstream” press on the inequality?

  35. spotted1 says:

    It DOES NOT serve anyone to have a teacher who has been convicted of child molestation/rape/incest/etc. teaching in the classroom. The legal system and the unions do not protect teachers from conviction. They ensure that due process is followed in the charges. And guess what, lawyers do the same thing. How many times have we seen “guilty” people walk on a technicality? It happens. It shouldn’t but it does

    Sure, hold teachers to a higher standard. But be crystal clear on what that standard is and why it is in place. Don’t just do something because of a few isolated cases.

    Teachers all ready must go through a state and national background check to be employed. Do they need to take a “presume you are guilty until proven innocent” test before starting also?

  36. MyBandito says:

    “Numerous cases show former teachers charged with sex crimes are given lighter sentences.” How about convicted?

    In the case of Keshia T. Shaw, it may turn out to be necessary to allow her to plea down to a lesser crime in order to get a conviction rather than risk a not guilty verdict due to a lack of evidence. We don’t want guilty teachers back into the classroom, do we?

    In your world, a teacher whould be put away for a long time simply based on the testimony of the accuser. If that were the case, many innocent teachers would be in jail. I know a teacher or two that I wouldn’t mind getting even with.

    In the real world, hard evidence is important. Without hard evidence it’s one person’s word against another, no conviction.

    However, your bringing Keshia T. Shaw into this discussion is irrelevant since she has not been convicted of a crime, except in the TNT. But maybe that’s enough for you. It seems so from the wording of your letter.

  37. cclngthr says:

    I think it is up to the parent to make that judgement whether any person can be trusted, particularly family members. They also have to TEACH kids to make judgements whether or not to be around certain people, and to tell others whether a person violated that boundary. This includes parents.

    I can teach my kid not to allow certain people around them, by the way they act around my kids. Certain things should NEVER happen between kids and adults and there are boundaries that are often crossed that people think are OK.


    The above link is one of the items being used in boundary invasion trainings. In it, it describes certain invasions that are often crossed and is generally OK by people to cross that boundary.

    Should kids be taught to mistrust people? Many parents are taking that route quite literally. I think we now have to teach kids to mistrust people at some point, including parents.

    I also think parents/family members can reduce the chances of incest/molestation by teaching the kid not to allow people to do certain things with them; including the parent.

  38. cclngthr says:

    Sometimes that lesser charge is not a conviction that offers equality in what they did. Veronica Dawkins was having sex with a student, an illegal act. Instead of having a conviction of sex with a student, she was convicted of 4th degree assault, which is not the same as sexual misconduct with a minor. She does not have to register as a sex offender; which she should be required to because she committed that act and admitted to it.

    However, Dawkins had sex with a student older than 16, which is the age of consent in WA. Still, teachers are prohibited from sexual activity with people under 21, which now is the law. Shaw however had sex with a 12 year old, which is younger than 16; the age of consent.

    In your mind, Dawkins should have a lessor sentence because her act involved a person of the age of consent and Shaw should get a sentence that is harsher because her subject is younger than 16.

    I think both should serve an equal sentence.

  39. cc, I hate to say it, but I think you’re wasting your time trying to convince certain people that teachers, by virtue of their positions, have a higher level of access to children than virtually anyone else and should therefore be held to a higher standard. There seems to be a certain group of “educated” people who will side with the teachers regardless of what they do.

  40. MyBandito says:

    ccingthr said, “In your mind, Dawkins should have a lessor sentence because her act involved a person of the age of consent and Shaw should get a sentence that is harsher because her subject is younger than 16.”

    You read minds in order to fabricate arguments? Where did I say such a thing? I’m not sure that I find you to be very credible. You seem to have a personal ax to grind, as well.

    You need to talk to a prosecutor to find the answers to your grief about Dawkins pleading to a lessor charge. All I said was that sometimes that’s better than going through the trouble of prosecuting the case only to have it blow up in your face due to a lack of evidence, or some other legal glitch.

    No one wants these people in our schools.

  41. cclngthr says:


    Dawkins however committed a similar act as Shaw, and should face the same sentence as Shaw likely will face.

    After so many times taking over classes where teachers have molested students; I am often asked by students, both the victim and non-victim of why did they do it; which I prefer to answer their questions as honestly and to the point as possible. I know kids have impressional minds, but they do need to have answers to this issue because they are the ones who struggle with it as they are facing it more and more. I also think it is a problem that we simply don’t have a firm grasp on because a lot of the behaviors exhibited by the suspect is considered normal and acceptable. A lot of people feel young kids, by virtue prefer to get back at adults and fabricate stories that get the adult in trouble. However, there are ways investigators can tell if the story does not add up; even with an older kid. There also are forensic evidence included in this and when forensic evidence shows nothing, the story may not be fully true.

    A lot of the issue is adults simply will refuse to believe the abuse even happened; more so with boys than girls. They phrase questions to victims that assume the story is a fabrication. A lot of the time, people think it is a right of passage to have sex with an adult to learn the act.

    This was a major element in The Boys of St. Vincent. In the first part of the movie, Brother Lavin was insistant that Brian Lundy’s allegations of physical and sexual abuse of younger boys was a fabrication because he felt the boy was a troubled youth out to cause trouble. The first investigation also was dropped by the police department because the chief of police was directly involved in the Catholic church who ran the orphanage and wanted all sexual issues be removed. It wasn’t until Lavin himself was caught abusing Kevin Reevey by another member of the church that some changes were made. It wasn’t until 15 years later that prosecutors decided to fully inquire why no action was done earlier and all of the brothers who were abusing the boys be brought before a judge to face the consequences.

  42. Fibonacci says:

    You misunderstand. No one here is defending teachers as child molesters. My point is just the opposite. cc keeps blathering on about how teachers should be held to a higher standard. I have asked over and over again what that means–harsher penalties—-less evidence to convict? Just saying “a higher standard” is meaningless. MY point was that I want ALL child molesters punished to the full extent of the law–don’t you? The punishment should not depend on the job to the molester. Your point about the teacher having more access to kids is true, but how does that equate to what should be done with them if they are found guilty of molesting a child?

  43. cclngthr says:

    You are deaf.. I told you time and time again, when teachers commit such crimes, they must face an automatic (mandatory) maximum sentence as charged.

    1. Teachers do not have the opportunity to plead down when they target students.
    2. Teachers face the maximum penalty when they target students.

    When teachers USE THE JOB AS TEACHER AS A OPPORTUNITY TO SEEK SEXUAL GRATIFICATION WITH A CHILD is what I mean. Instead of focusing on appropriate relationships with students, those teachers, like Jennifer Rice, Shaw and others, use the job not to focus on teaching and appropriate teacher/student relationships, they focus on having sex with students and inappropriate relationships.

    Teachers using their position as teacher to seek sexual gratification = mandatory maximum penalty.

    I don’t want ANY person associated with a sexual accusation teaching my kid. Why were they accused? Why did the teacher remain after the case was closed? Whether false, or true, having that accusation makes that person automatically biased regarding the issue.

  44. biblethumper says:

    The state god gobmint has a very low “standard”, what is that standard ?
    Does anyone think the people will do better?

  45. beerBoy says:

    cc – and how would that be Constitutional….you know, equal protection under the law?

    Is there any other profession that is subjected to a mandatory higher sentence than others?

    Let me know the answer to those questions and then I might think you might have a valid point.

  46. cclngthr says:

    Teaching is a chosen job. One that a person actively chooses to be in. When they chose that job, they are also choosing to be upheld to a standard of professionalism where if they are accused of sexual misconduct with a student, they are choosing to face the maximum penalty; because they have an assumed trust where they are supposed to act in ways that is not sexual, particularly on the job and with students.

    I find it irritating to continually see teachers not facing the maximum penalty; often lessor sentences than other people; due to their image as a trusted individual; a teacher. The only teacher I know of who faced a maximum penalty is Jennifer Rice, who showed a complete disregard to appropriate teacher/student relationships, and actively targeted a 10 year old student to have sex with. The rest served less than one year in jail. My older brother, who was convicted of the same offense, served 3 years before 1990, at the time which sexual assaults on children were not prioritized (as it is now). I would expect the sentence for a teacher to be equal, or more time served than my older brother at the very least.

    I also find it irritating that people assume that the offense is false; ignoring the fact it is often true and the problems it creates when people believe it did not happen, and the teacher; like Jennifer Rice is able to move on to another school district to target more kids for sex.

    Little Beerboy knows that this costs taxpayers a lot of money, when victims sue the school district (as the parents of the children Rice targeted) for damages because the issue of sexual misconduct was not taken seriously enough. If I remember right, they got a total of $15 MILLION damages when they sued Tacoma and Bethel School Districts.

    I would rather err on the side of caution and if a case of sexual misconduct came across my desk if I was an administrator, I would terminate that teacher because it is a liability issue in trying to keep that teacher on staff. It makes me appear that I am for the employee and do not believe the student in all cases if that teacher is on staff who has been accused and remains on the payroll.

  47. itwasntmethistime says:

    cc -That’s nuts. You can’t fire a teacher based solely on the say-so of one person who may or may not be telling the truth. The fact is, sometimes kids do lie about sexual assaults just to get attention or for retaliation. The only reasonable course of action is to separate the accuser and accused while the truth is sorted out. In almost every case, one of the people involved is lying. How can you presume to know which person is the liar without an investigation?

  48. itwasntmethistime says:

    And by the way, cc, why are you so sure Shaw is guilty? He says she did it, she says she didn’t. One of them is lying. I don’t know which one because I wasn’t there. How do you know it’s her lying and not him?

  49. cclngthr says:


    What makes you think the boy is lying? Are you assuming each and every case of sexual abuse should assume the victim is lying? Do you think it is acceptable for children (particularly teenagers) to have sex with adults?

    The issue I have with this is when you automatically assume the victim is lying, it will make those cases where it truely happened very difficult to prosecute because when you assume victims say they were abused out of retaliation, those true victims never will come forward. I mean NEVER. It encourages people to have sex with kids and the kid will never be believed.

    Shaw put herself in a position that is very questionable, and the abuse likely did happen. Why was she alone with the student? Why did she go to the boys house? Why did she give the boy a ride in her car?

    These items I never would consider doing now.

    With sexual abuse, particularly with boys, it is very common that they do not disclose it for years, because how we view it. It is widely known that with a male sexual assault victim, the sentence is much lighter because males are assumed 1. an agressor, and 2. should suck it up and accept sexual assault of boys as acceptable. If you look at cases of sexual assaults of girls vs boys, the girl victim nearly always receives more support and the sentence of the suspect is longer. With a boy victim, they are questioned differently, given less support and the sentence is much lesser. Many males refuse to disclose it.

  50. MyBandito says:

    I get it. ccingthr believes that it doesn’t matter if the accusation is true or not, the fact that the teacher has been accused, automatically disqualifies that teacher from teaching. ccingthr expects us to “believe the student in all cases.”

    All this time reading ccingthr’s rants about boundary issues and being trusted individuals, it never crossed my mind that he didn’t care whether the teacher in question was guilty or innocent.

    ccingthr, There is a huge difference between taking the accusation of a student seriously, and believing the student in all cases.

    itwasntmethistime is correct, That’s Nuts!

  51. beerBoy says:

    It appears, based upon this and many other education threads, that ccingthr harbors a very deep disgust for the vast majority of his fellow teachers, feeling that they are underachieving at best and very likely to be child rapists who should be despised for not being exactly like the substitute teacher exemplar ccingthr.

    Gotta wonder if your fellow teachers loathe you as much as you loathe them.

  52. beerBoy says:

    It appears, based upon this and many other education threads, that cc harbors a very deep disgust for the vast majority of his fellow teachers, feeling that they are underachieving at best and very likely to be child rapists who should be despised for not being exactly like the substitute teacher exemplar.

    Gotta wonder if your fellow teachers loathe you as much as you loathe them.

  53. MyBandito says:

    I wonder how ccingthr would feel if he were falsely accused by a hateful former student holding a grudge. Then he would appreciate the concept of equal protection under the law and the backing of his union brothers and sisters. How would he like those higher standards, then?

  54. itwasntmethistime says:

    beerBoy and Bandito — One other point to consider is that cc doesn’t actually have any kids of his own. It’s easy to make finite rules about raising kids when you don’t have any. Cc’s mother never left him alone with any other adult, including family, but it’s made him paranoid and neurotic. In the real world of multiple jobs, multiple kids, and multiple activities it is normal to leave children with adults you know and trust. My kids are going to spend the afternoon at a friend’s house until either my husband or I gets home from work and I am certain they are not going to be assaulted, sexually or any other way. It is unrealistic to raise children if you are saddled with extreme paranoia.

  55. itwasntmethistime says:

    cc — I didn’t say I think the boy is lying. I said I don’t know who is lying because I wasn’t there. You weren’t there either so how do you know which one of them is lying?

  56. frankiethomas says:

    Amen beerboy. Amen.

  57. stradivari says:

    Teacher Unions absolutely do not protect its members from criminal charges. Even when union lawyers are retained, the individual charged teacher must pay the entire legal bill. Union dues are not used to defend teachers against criminal charges. Union teachers are professionals and are unified against those who betray the profession. Teachers unions have lobbied hard for finger printing requirements and screening to prevent undesirable persons from teaching in public schools.

  58. cclngthr says:


    With MANY male victims, it is assumed they are lying. If the victim was a female, the scenario would be interpreted very differently. Female victims are supported more than male victims. This is a known issue among research done with child abuse issues.

    If you look at comments regarding the 2 incidences at Stadium, who involved female victims, comments eluded both suspects as perverts and should be locked up for a long time. This time, where a MALE is a victim, the assumption is, he is making it up, and should not receive any support.

    BTW, there are more parents who are not comfortable leaving their children with other people than you realize. One parent usually stays home when this is seen. Know several parents who do this in my neighborhood. It is not paranoia, but a reality.

    What I see in the education system is how kids are taught, and what employers expect from new hires; something that I often question employers on. I am told by many employers that kids now do not have skills in reading, math, science, writing (and any other academic issue) as they once had. Know 1 employer, a friend of mine, who expects high school graduates to know certain things, and when he questions new applicants about their skills, he feels they should not have graduated. He sent his kids to private schools because he does not believe public schools are capable of doing the job.

    I also see the education system being an assembly line form rather than truely focusing on individual student needs. Students now have to learn concepts with very little practice and the pace which things are taught does not give time for kids to adequately learn it. My dentist also said a similar thing when he feels the school year should not be 180 days, but over 200 days because students are not given the time to learn things as they should. He and I agree that instead of book knowledge, students need to learn how to apply the concept in real life rather than memorizing facts/figures.

  59. cclngthr says:

    Give me an exact number of false allegations to true allegations. False allegations are quite low. not significant to worry about in my mind.

    The boundary invasion policies districts have prohibit behaviors that may be misconstrued as inappropriate, thus can reduce the false clsims.

  60. frankiethomas says:

    Eluded? Also, the new math is teaching the concepts rather than memorizing the facts and everyone complains about it. Also, no one is assuming the vicitm is lying in this case. Folks are just saying how about we don’t tar and feather the accused until after due process plays out. To believe that guilt is implied just by being accused is very, very dangerous.

  61. itwasntmethistime says:

    cc — Your comment to Bandito — “Give me an exact number of false allegations to true allegations. False allegations are quite low. not significant to worry about in my mind.”

    Have that read “Give me an exact number of child molesters to non-child molesters. Child molesters are really quite low. Not significant to worry about in my mind.”

    Why do you completely freak out about the tiny chance someone could be a child molester but completely disregard the small chance someone could falsely label someone a child molester? Neither situation seems insignificant to me. We’re talking about peoples’ lives here.

  62. cc – I don’t disagree with your comments about the systemic issues surrounding public education. However, I think the problem goes beyond the teachers (and yes, there are some underqualified, lazy and downright devious ones – just like every other profession). NCLB and other standardized approaches to try to implement standards (which need to be implemented and enforced) have had a very negative impact upon the ability of teachers to adapt to the needs of their individual students.

    Have you seen what the Texas Republican Party has made part of its Platform?

    With regard to critical thinking, the Republican Party of Texas document states: “Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.” (page 20, Republican Party of Texas, 2012).

  63. itwasntmethistime says:

    beerBoy — I am also opposed to education models that focus on undermining parental authority. I think what they are saying is that they approve of HOTS models that teach critical thinking without undermining parental authority, but are opposed to the others. I’m attempting to teach my children to be critical thinkers without automatically discounting or disrespecting authority. That’s how I interpret the quote from your post (but I didn’t read the link.)

    Teenagers are already wired to think adults are stupid. The last think I want is my kids’ school reinforcing that.

  64. itwasntme – Unfortunately many parents are teaching their children to not respect authority (their teachers) by challenging any attempt to make the students actually earn their grades. The parochial school I went to emphasized critical thinking skills while maintaining a very clear emphasis upon maintaining a respect for authority (as my brother said, “we knew we were going to go to hell if we disrespected the nuns…or at least spend a couple lifetimes in Purgatory”)

    What distresses me about the Texas Republicans is that they seem to be equating critical thinking and higher level thinking with a break down of the family unit. And their solution appears to be to get rid of any pedagogical model that goes beyond memorization and regurgitation of facts.

    If you go to the link I provided you will see that some school districts in Texas are teaching that the Loch Ness monster is real as evidence that dinosaurs still live as evidence for Creationism.

  65. cclngthr says:

    I am not freaking about the issue of sex offenders; however I have been around kids who were/are molested and feel that the process of investigations should be better than they are. My niece was molested, and the family flatly refused to believe she was, which is one of the reasons why the state permanently removed her. It is a problem that needs improvement on big time. I see a lot of boys who are molested not getting the same kind of treatment as girls get because it is believed boys don’t need that kind of treatment; when in fact they do. The questioning of kids is not as good as it can be, nor is the process of the physical/emotional effects of molestation on both boys and girls.

    Should the kid be removed from the environment they are in? I think in every case of molestation, it is best to temporarily remove the kid and adult from the environment until the investigations are completed.

    I know what the Texas GOP has in mind, with the HOTS issue. I think critical thinking skills are necessary and should be taught. Encouraging students to question things and challenge people in ideas are necessary, for students ideas may be a better solution. This does not undermine parental authority because it does not undermine the standards of knowledge that is a requirement. I don’t believe that critical thinking skills is a breakdown in parental authority because there are rules that cannot change which parents determine and control.

    I agree that parents are trying to undermine teacher authority and attempt to get grades higher than they should get. I feel grades should be earned and not something that is easily handed out for free. I have had parents that do that; and have had the principal change the grade because I refused.

  66. itwasntmethistime says:

    Whoever comes up with the magic formula that trains kids to use analysis and synthesis skills to comprehend the world around them without being disrespectful about it will change the world for the better.

    You almost don’t want to phrase it as teaching kids to “question” things, because that alludes to doubt and defiance, with the expectation to assume things are wrong until proven otherwise. Theoretically, you get to the same place by thinking “Hmmm, is that right?” or “Hmmm, is that wrong?” but the lasting impression for one is positive and the other is negative. Being positive is generally more respectful and better received by others.

    cc — Seriously, you are freaking out about sex offenders. You’ve got everyone who is ever around children guilty until proven otherwise.

  67. cclngthr says:

    I think when you have people trying to analyse issues, you end up interpreting it as defiance because your judgements are clouded by how you perceive issues. Ittechnically is not being defiant. It is an attempt to look at it from another perspective.

    With me, particularly with the issue of offenders, having to clean up the mess that is created, and the problems kids have, I see the issue as something that is not done correctly; where you believe it is not an issue that needs fixing because you have no personal experience in that. If you were molested, I believe you would feel very differently than you currently do. Put yourself in the position of the abused kid and look at it from their perspective.

  68. itwasntmethistime says:

    cc — I never said it’s not an issue that needs fixing. I simply said one of the two parties is lying and since neither you nor I were there neither you nor I know which one is lying.

    You have the teacher tried and hung already. How can you do that? You weren’t there so you don’t know. If it were up to you, this woman’s life would be ruined permanently whether she was 100% guilty or 100% innocent.

  69. MyBandito says:

    Kangaroo Court.

  70. biblethumper says:

    Beerboy,,,we think you’ve had two to many Bud Light Platinum…
    First off the state god ain’t going by the Constitution NOR The Bible so, what “Law” are “they” going by ???
    Well take a look at a hodgepodge of legalize lunacy called the Justice System and put that in your marijuana pipe and smoke it … Hey beerboy have another Bud …

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