Letters to the Editor

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WAR: Haven’t we had enough of it yet?

Letter by Gary E. Bevis, Tacoma on June 29, 2012 at 2:29 pm with 122 Comments »
July 6, 2012 11:32 am

What we’re not talking about nearly enough is why we, the American people, allow our sons, daughters, brothers and sisters to volunteer to serve in the mercenary forces of American empire.

If America really was facing an imminent existential threat, you wouldn’t have to give away college scholarships, a paycheck, three hots and a cot and lifetime medical benefits to get people to fight to protect their families, homes and neighborhoods.

What we don’t talk about nearly enough is the nature and ubiquity with which Americans are propagandized about their own national history, our nation’s motivations in the global sphere since this nation’s inception, and our morally bankrupt nationist ideology that dictates we are somehow superior culturally, politically, religiously, economically, racially or otherwise to all other peoples of the globe.

War is immoral by definition, justified only by existential treat. America’s plutocrats have foisted ideological boogie men upon us for so long, using the psychology of fear to manipulate the American people. All of us need to question our fundamental beliefs about our nation, our role in the world, our economic system and the injustice it necessarily creates – and change ourselves.

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  1. SandHills says:

    Some have qualities of honor and place those qualities on the altar of military service to our nation. Others, like the letter writer, will always find something to biatch about…

  2. SwordofPerseus says:

    Tell me SandHills, what is honorable about killing innocent people, in the name of oil. You are an ignorant fool, you have obviously conflated killing and worship, in the name of your oligarchs. I believe that in the old testament that would lead to eternal damnation. Lucky for you I don’t believe in that…

  3. Those planes were not flown by “boogie men”. The Ft Hood shooter was not imaginary.

    Peace at home is not free. Your ability to sleep safely and write ignorant letters is not free.

    To call those that serve brainwashed to bribed is not only insulting, but childish and stupid.

  4. LeePHill says:

    “Those planes were not flown by “boogie men”

    If you are speaking of 9/11/01, we still haven’t attacked the country where the majority of the terrorists were from – Saudi Arabia

    “The Ft Hood shooter was not imaginary.”

    Hasan was a US citizen. Do you suggest that we pull a “shock and awe” on ourselves because one of our citizens went looney during military service and killed others because the military didn’t take care of business with him when they had the chance?

    It’s sort of hard not to think that people are brainwashed when they post tripe like that.

  5. lylelaws says:

    Gary E. Bevis,

    “The mercenary forces of the American empire?”

    I wasn’t necessary to read more than your “Hate America” first sentence to get your message.

    If your attitude had prevailed in 1941 we would be speaking German with a Japanese accent.

  6. Lylelaws – funny you bring up Germany…all it took was a whole bunch of “Good Germans” to allow the militaristic, nationalistic policies based upon glorification of the Fatherland.

    Just as is true now – I’m sure anyone who dared to speak against the militaristic fervor risked ridicule and sanction from “patriots” like you and CT7.

  7. SwordofPerseus says:

    CT7 says – “Those planes were not flown by “boogie men”. I assume you mean the 9/11 saga, where for the first time in the history of physics and skyscrapers three steel reinforceD buildings collapsed to the ground in their own footprint with no investigation into the real cause of the collapse or who was the real mastermind of 9/11 attack -FACT.

    CT7 says – “The Ft Hood shooter was not imaginary.” US citizen, driven to madness by inhumane and immoral wars of aggression…

    CT7 says – “Peace at home is not free. Your ability to sleep safely and write ignorant letters is not free.” No not free, but explain to me how fighting wars of aggression in Afghanistan and Iraq have made us more free, elaborate just exactly how we are safer for this expenditure of blood and treasure. From what I have read of your imbecilic posts, I doubt you could formulate a viable or logical argument for our actions in either Iraq or Afghanistan, prove me wrong if you can.

    CT7 says – “To call those that serve brainwashed to bribed is not only insulting, but childish and stupid.” You prove my points with this statement.

    Exactly what is the imminent and existential threat we are faced with in the US, tell us CT, you should be more worried about CITI bank and Monsanto than the Taliban or al qaeda.

  8. LeePHill says:

    Lyle – are you sure you aren’t speaking German? Your faux patriotism is sounding familiar

  9. SwordofPerseus says:

    What no clueless thoughtless ignorant rant from Lyle Laws in the Friday LTE, thank you Trib editors for the breath of insight and concern as well as a brief respite from Lyle.

  10. SwordofPerseus says:

    According to the constitution, war can only legally be declared by Congress against another government. What well trained army are we fighting? What poorly trained army, navy air force are we fighting against? Who is their leader to negotiate peace with. What is our ultimate goal in this “war”(I use the term loosely)? You don’t know. No one does…What’s wrong with this picture?

  11. lylelaws says:

    BeerBoy,

    Are you truly trying to say that American citizens who speak out against America’s military actions face the same consequences that German people who would have dared to criticize Hitler’s reign of terror did?

    I honestly would have thought better of you.

  12. Sop, should we hunt down terrorists or not?

  13. LeePHill says:

    CT7 – what we should do is first recognize a US citizen when you see one and then attack the country that attacks you.

    Hunt down the terrorists???? They died in the attack, except for their leadership, which President Obama and our military has taken care of.

  14. lylelaws says:

    Sword,

    So we shouldn’t fight back against and kill crazed terrrorists and their leaders like the ones who slaughtered more than 3,000 innocent Americans on 9-11 because they don’t officially represent any one country?

    I stand behind President Obama’s decision to take them out before they can kill and maim any more Americans here at home or any more of our brave young men and women who have put their lives on the line.

  15. LeePHill says:

    What was the difference between Major Hasan and Paul Hill?

  16. LeePHill says:

    “So we shouldn’t fight back against and kill crazed terrrorists and their leaders like the ones who slaughtered more than 3,000 innocent Americans on 9-11 because they don’t officially represent any one country?”

    I’m amazed at how ignorant questions can be.

    No one is opposed to hunting down guity parties. How about avoiding things like Shock and Awe that killed thousands of civilians?

    Amazing how the Navy Seals were able to hunt down and kill Bin Laden without killing thousands more too boot?????

  17. Nice attempt at a deflection there lylelaws…Your paraphrase of my post isn’t what my post communicated.

    Good Germans were “good” out of love for patriotism, fear of the boogeymen, and desperation at the economic crisis. NOT out of fear of being jailed/killed.

    There were a few of us protesting the useless and wasteful invasion of Iraq and there were more than a few “good Americans” yelling obscenities, spitting at us, hurling threats, etc. Don’t fool yourself. Nationalism supporting militarism can turn into domestic violence in a heartbeat.

  18. Bb- only increased centralized powers could take us down that road. One side in America is working to increase the federal role in our lives, one side wants to decrease it.

    Being patriotic and proud of your nation is a positive emotion. It fosters community, identity, and civility.

  19. charliebucket says:

    well said beerboy.

    I have long said that I think many of our fellow citizens are confusing (blind) nationalism for patriotism.

  20. LeePHill says:

    “Being patriotic and proud of your nation is a positive emotion. It fosters community, identity, and civility.”

    And blind allegiance.

    I am the most proud of my country when it is adult enough to say “I was wrong”

  21. What a silly leap, from patriotic to “blind allegiance”. Call it cautious. You expect the people to have no loyalty, pride, or sense of duty yet expect all from govt. Sick

  22. lylelaws says:

    Sword, BeerBoy, LeePHill, charlie Bucket,

    Just out of curiosity, did any of you serve in America’s armed forces during time of war?

    Six members of my family did, and although none of us have ever felt that we deserved any special thanks, my patience sometimes run a little thin when I hear people who elected not to serve lecture to those of u8s who did.

    Well?

  23. LeePHill says:

    Lyle – I’ve answered this question so many times I’m sick of it.

    I was available to be drafted in 1970 and had a high lottery number, so I didn’t serve. It’s called “VOLUNTARY” and “CHOICE”.

    People that were drafted have something to complain about. They didn’t get a choice. Those who enterted the military by choice should quit complaining about their choice in life. It was never intended to provide them with special consideration, although the truth me known, the only vets that I’ve met who expect special consideration are those who never saw any action anyway.

    CT7 is a great example.

  24. LeePHill says:

    I’m gonna pull a “CT7″ here….creating a baseless assertion from a right to choice.

    All people who complain about the Supreme Court’s ruling on Affordable Health Care are traitors for not acknowledging the ruling of the court and the implementation of law by the highest court in the land.

    Now, if you want to play a game were anyone that doesn’t serve in the military has no right to comment about the military…..

    Lyle – your age would make you Korean Conflict eligible. Did you serve in combat?

  25. LeePHill says:

    oops

  26. Wars and taxes: will be here forever.

  27. Hill, nice attempt to make this about me. Typical deflect.

    Since you asked, multiple deployments, all serving in leadership positions in Infantry companies.

    You obviously harbor guilt about not serving. You should.

  28. SwordofPerseus says:

    Read this once, it seems to convey precisely how I feel…

    “Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by “patriotism” I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one’s own nation, which is the concern with the nation’s spiritual as much as with its material welfare — never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.”~Albert Enstein

  29. SwordofPerseus says:

    “Only the dead have seen the end of war.”~Plato

  30. SwordofPerseus says:

    Lyle says – “Sword, BeerBoy, LeePHill, charlie Bucket, Just out of curiosity, did any of you serve in America’s armed forces during time of war?”

    Last war declared by Congress was WWII. So therefor Lyle I doubt anyone posting here served their country in time of war, perhaps in an armed “police actions”(Korea, Viet Nam) or “militaristic imperial attacks”(Iraq) or UN “peace-keeping missions”(Bosnia, Somalia) not being snarky, just trying to define terms. Time of war?, I am dubious.

    I applaud anyone who served in uniform honorably, I truly appreciate your sacrifice and that of your families. I was born in 1960 and was not old enough for that “War” (Viet Nam) and no I was never in the service, neither was Ronald Reagan or William J. Clinton.

    As I have stated before on this very bulletin board, I would like to see everyone in this country serve for a minimum of two years before their 26th birthday in branch of the military (ARMY, NAVY,AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD) or civilian service like PEACE CORPS or AMERI CORPS.

  31. took14theteam says:

    :::::vomit::::::

  32. SwordofPerseus says:

    Two names, two stories of outrage and lies;

    PFC. Lynch, Jessica D. b.1983/4/26

    Tillman, Patrick D. b.1976/11/6-d.2004/4/22 KIA*

    *Killed by “friendly” fire, RIP.

    Why the lies CT7…Lyle, why?

  33. SwordofPerseus says:

    Took_1_in_the_head – get any on your shoes idiot?

  34. SwordofPerseus says:

    Correctio CPL. Tillman, Patrick D.~

  35. SwordofPerseus says:

    “Correction” looking for hammer to fix this new wireless keyboard.

  36. took14theteam says:

    If you weren’t a DB you wouldn’t have a problem typing sword_in_the_…..

  37. took14theteam says:

    Oh, need to cue _Hill for the message messenger thingy for calling me an idiot sword_in_the_….

  38. charliebucket says:

    I (also) am too young to have served in time of war, except the Gulf War, and by then, I was too old and ‘ineligible’.

    Save your military self righteousness for someone who cares folks. I honor those who served, in combat or otherwise, but give no quarter to those who serve and then have a chip on their shoulder and condemnation and hatred for those who didn’t serve in the military as if we are scum.

    go blow.

    BTW, great Einstein quote, sword. Amen.

  39. Chuck, the only time those that did not serve are viewed as scum is when they talk of war with no knowledge or judge those who make the decision to dedicate themselves to the greater good.

    You sound like another person who feels guilty. You should. Nice list of excuses.

  40. Ok, what was the lie with PFC Lynch?

    Einstein was not a political thinker. Plato was, and even he could not construct a Utopia that was feasible. Big govt planning, in his view, was a failed effort.

    Nice that you want others to serve after you took a pass. Sally.

  41. Fibonacci says:

    CT7
    So, according to your logic, no one can criticize the military unless they have beenIN the military. Therefore, using your logic, you can’t criticize politicians unless YOU have been one.

    I also respect those who served, but you are not better than those who didn’t.

  42. Fib, while you may have some respect for service, others of your political leanings do not. They throw out the token ‘support the troops, not the war’, but it is an obvious lie.

  43. Lyle – Go back and read beyond the first sentence before you start ramb

    CT7,

    terrorists are criminals – the best way to track criminals is though law enforcement not military channels.

    Which side is working to decrease the federal role in lives?

    ‘ . . .fosters community, identity, and civility’ – well that certainly is not the neocons or the gop.

    An overly developed sense of loyalty, pride, and sense of duty leads to blind adherence.

    And you sound like you are the one with guilt feelings.

    “those who have not served’ – like Bush’s civilian war planers who said Iraqis would welcome us as liberators, and profits form their oil would pay for the war?

    Einstein was more of a political thinker than you will ever be.

    SOP – two year service – I’ve been saying that since my first trip to sunny South Vietnam.

  44. We rely on other nations to capture criminals (declared by the US) overseas. Will Yemen, Somolia, etc act on our needs.

    Come on.

    Nice Bush plug. Explain to your leftist friends why Bush never deployed (hint, it has to do with what type of plane he flew). Not your point, but a good time to bring it up. As a Nam vet, you would know more than most. If you are too partisan/bitter, I will help.

  45. The Freikorps probably felt that no one who hadn’t served had a right to comment on their nation’s warring attitude either….

    (I wouldn’t normally go this way but – since lylelaws and CT7 opened the door….)

  46. harleyrider1 says:

    WE – all of us as Americans – are neglectful in one very significant aspect of War.

    Only Congress has the power to declare War. What it means to me having served as a Marine is we’re all in or we’re all out.

    We have shirked our duties by allowing U.S. Presidents – our Presidents – regardless of party affiliation, to conduct their own wars. Obama continuing not only in Afghanistan long after we got Bin Laden, but committing even more troops to four (4) simultaneous “wars” of his choosing in Africa. We are fighting in five now.

    Congress did not declare any of these “wars”. None of us are sacrificing; none of us is suffering; none of us really give a week’s thought to any of these five. Just the soldiers and their families.

    This Fall, let’s elect people that will no longer send troops to fight without such a declaration. And let’s write our Congress and our President stating such a demand. Do not re-elect those that support their own private wars.

    Both parties may do this, but it doesn’t mean it’s right. And it is not according to our foundation. Losing lives this way devastates families without a cause.

    All in … or All out.

  47. Mr. Bevis, I’d suggest you just blow it out your………however you are so full of it, if you did the entire nation would be awash in your excrement!

  48. LeePHill says:

    “multiple deployments, all serving in leadership positions in Infantry companies.
    You obviously harbor guilt about not serving. You should.”

    Carefully chosen words – “leadership positions in infantry companies” does not mean you saw action.

    I may not have served in the military, but I’m not stupid.

    Also there are ways to serve your country without being in the military and I have done those. I don’t have guilt for not playing army

  49. The pissing and moaning of the left continues, brings joy to my heart, gives me tingles all over. You’re like a frog in the pot of water on the stove, you don’t realize it but your time is running out, the water will soon be boiling. Have a HAPPY, PATRIOTIC FOURTH of JULY….GO AMERICA! The GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH!

  50. bobbysangelwife says:

    ya know, I’m getting really tired of people making wide-spread blanket statements about the entire military and our people who serve.
    Wide-spread blanket statements about how they’re “all war mongers”, “uneducated and can’t form a thought of their own unless told by others”, “killers”, “murderers”, and the list goes on.

    Our military is STILL an all-volunteer force. It’s also the most stable job in the country right now as well.

    Nobody forced my husband to join 22 years ago. Nobody forced my daddy to serve almost 50 years ago. Nobody forced my brother to join 20 years ago either.

    3 of the most highly intelligent people I have even known, right there. 2 have gone on to do great and amazing things with their lives. The other is still serving.

    Interestingly enough none of them have ever killed or shot at a single person.

    I get so tired of hearing the same crap over and over and over….from the same types of people, over and over.

    You know what though, it’s okay….you keep sleeping in your comfortable bed each night, drink and go out, spend your money. Don’t forget to hug and kiss your wife/husband that you really don’t appreciate much anymore for whatever reason. Complain that the laundry hasn’t been done right or the house is dirty. Complain that you have yet another game to go to for your kid, that you’re spending way too much money on.

    I’ll continue to wait for mine to come home.

    *and don’t bother to respond. I say what I have to say and don’t come back to follow the comments.*

  51. LeePHill says:

    :::::pulls out kazoo for a refrain of America, the Beautiful to back up Jim’s nationalism rant::::::

  52. LeePHill says:

    bobbys – and I’m tired of people who choose the military as their career thinking that it makes them any more exceptional than a police officer, firefighter, teacher, scientist, et at.

    While you talk about people sleeping, kissing etc, remember there are veterans of military action that are homeless and in need. It’s not all flag waving and patriotic song.

    I’m glad you don’t check for responses, but that won’t stop me from using my right to my opinion.

  53. LeePHill just in case you need it,

    America, The Beautiful Lyrics
    by Katharine Lee Bates – 1913

    O beautiful for spacious skies,
    For amber waves of grain,
    For purple mountain majesties
    Above the fruited plain!
    America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
    And crown thy good with brotherhood
    From sea to shining sea!

    O beautiful for pilgrim feet,
    Whose stern impassion’d stress
    A thoroughfare for freedom beat
    Across the wilderness!
    America! America! God mend thine ev’ry flaw,
    Confirm thy soul in self-control,
    Thy liberty in law!

    O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife,
    Who more than self their country loved,
    And mercy more than life!
    America! America! May God thy gold refine
    Till all success be nobleness,
    And ev’ry gain divine!

    O Beautiful for patriot dream
    That sees beyond the years
    Thine alabaster cities gleam,
    Undimmed by human tears!
    America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
    And crown thy good with brotherhood
    From sea to shining sea!

    Proud Nationalist and Patriot

  54. LeePHill says:

    Since I’ve performed the song by request, Jim, and learned it as a child, I didn’t even have to copy and paste it. Ray Charles did a great version.

    When playing the kazoo, though, it’s rather difficult to sing.

  55. This thread is getting old. Hill on his usual anti-Soldier, anti-America rants. Homeless vets are part of his usual deflection.

    Once again, this is not about me (or you). But you just showed your ignorance of today’s military and our current conflict. I do not have to post my ERB/ORB on a blog.

    That is what is wrong with America (and the media). Unless you (civilian) search out documentaries, you have little to no understanding of our current conflict. Unlike wars of the past, such a small % serve and the entire fight can be ignored by the average Joe if he pleased.

  56. SwordofPerseus says:

    Nine posts and eighteen hours later CT still avoids my question…

    CT7 says – “Peace at home is not free. Your ability to sleep safely and write ignorant letters is not free.”

    June 29, 2012 @ 17:01 ~ “No not free, but explain to me how fighting wars of aggression in Afghanistan and Iraq have made us more free, elaborate just exactly how we are safer for this expenditure of blood and treasure. From what I have read of your imbecilic posts, I doubt you could formulate a viable or logical argument for our actions in either Iraq or Afghanistan, prove me wrong if you can.”

    This thread is getting old because you are sadly mistaken about your opinions and tired ideas, which have no logical justification.

  57. LeePHill says:

    Speaking of deflection, CT7, how are homeless vets “anti miliary”?

    Do you just kinda make this crap up as you go?

    Caring about the welfare of veterans who served in the military is about the most patriotic thing that can be done, but much like the anti-abortion right wing, the faux patriots are great at flag waving and chanting “support our troops” until they come home all screwed up and need help. Just so you don’t get lost on the analogy, the right wing cares about abortions, but eschews hungry children.

    When are you going to fess up about your stupidity on Major Hasan being a US citizen? Do you think I’m going to let you off the hook on that one?

  58. charliebucket says:

    ct – you are a judgemental sarcastic assinine nobody who seems to think he is a psychologist. I actually really know a thing or two about psychology and you just go ‘shoulding on’ yourself some more and keep pumping up your low self esteem by judging and putting down anonymous posters on the internet. what a big man. when you are done you and jim can go wave some flags and turn the 4th of July holiday into a God Bless America pro military war mongering revival instead of what it is: a celebration of our nation’s independence from England……

  59. lylelaws says:

    LeePHill,

    To answer your 7:21 PM question as to whether I served in combat; I never came under enemy fire but I did serve in the Korean war zone during that conflict. I served aboard the destroyer escort USS Koiner as a member of the USCG.

    Am I a flag-waver? Damn right I am. The flag flies at our home 365 days a year because it is the emblem of our great country.

  60. LeePHill says:

    “I do not have to post my ERB/ORB on a blog.”

    As I suspected – no combat. Having many friends that spent time in combat zones in Nam, I can smell an armchair warrior a mile away.

  61. LeePHill says:

    Lyle…correct me if I’m wrong….all combat in Korea was land-bound.

    When your patriotism includes making sure that no vet is homeless, along with flying your flag, I’ll be impressed.

    One more armchair warrior.

  62. LeePHill says:

    I guess I can say that I was a volunteer in the Tacoma Militia that protected Tacoma and Pierce County from invasion by the North Vietnamese army. We were very successful. No attacks whatsoever.

  63. Easy enough to say you know it by heart, prove it, I could say the same thing…but I am honest. I can’t so what, the point wasn’t to see how good my memory is but to give a little refresher, even to myself. So you say you have it memorized, walk on water and chew gum all at the same time, wow, what can’t you do? You sit there smug in your assertion that all you say is correct and true, while the rest of us are full of it…God give it a rest! You and the rest, are just pompous buffoons, who could use a little honest self-examination and perhaps a little medication…

  64. PFC HarleyRider,

    Does the term Operations Other Than War mean anything to you?

    Presidents have the authority to commit US Forces for up to 90 days WITHOUT consulting Congress, and has 48 hours after committing Forces to inform Congress.

    While Congress has the sole authority to declare War, it also has the power and authority to back and support the use of US Forces without declaring War. Lebanon and Somalia being two recent examples.

    My Marines called me Mister, and know that I earned my right to be a Marine in boot camp (MCRD San Diego) just like they did.

    CT7 – ‘leadership roles in infantry companies’ – in the Marines leadership roles start at the fire team leader billet (Corporal E-4 by TOE) and extends upwards to Company Commander (Captain O-3 by TOE).

    My roles in infantry companies were Platoon Leader and Company Executive Officer.

    Prior to becoming an infantry office, I served as a team leader, squad leader, and platoon sergeant.

    JimK – thanks to you ‘paterotic’ zombies and your neocon masters the Greatest Nation on Earth is fast becoming a third world cesspit.

    And least you all forget – The Armed services are sworn to Protect and Defend the Constriction from all Enemies, foreign and domestic.

  65. lylelaws says:

    LeePHill,

    The reason I inquired if you, BeerBoy, Charlie and Sword had served is not because I condem people who didn’t but because many of us who did get tired of hearing folks like you boys and the letter writer who spend so much time finding fault with our country and not defending it when the chips are down.

  66. lyle – in 1973 I was 16 – Vietnam ceasefire agreement was signed that year. 1975 I went to register for the draft and they told me to hold off because an announcement was coming soon – that registration of the draft was over.

    The chips weren’t down.

    Sorry, but your attempt to besmirch my character didn’t work.

  67. charliebucket says:

    beerboy….I was 9 in 1973 so I will (also) not apologize to anybody for being too young to join the military during wartime.

    lyle – you are smug and self righteous and I get tired of hearing folks like you go on and on about how great our country is without ever acknowledging any problems or challenges whatsoever unless you are cutting down liberals/democrats. the terms are blind nationalism and brainwashed partisanship.

    my flag also flies 365 days a year, BTW.

  68. SwordofPerseus says:

    As not a surprise but a continuing disappointment, the letter writers points went well over the heads of the “wrong-wing-republicon” contingent of posters here, ‘slander must have lost his www. connection, or somehow has come to reason.

    The point is: “why do we spend our blood and treasure when there is no justification for such action?”

    Evidently the hawks are frightened of the dark and nasty unknown. Wake up children, open the drapes, let the sun shine in. The truth will set you free. We face more danger from CITI bank and Monsanto than we ever did from al quaeda or the Taliban. Just the simple facts…;-}

  69. And when I joined in 2000 I could foresee the next decade of conflict?

    Sop- are we more free? Perhaps not “more”, but has freedom been protected? You bet. By fighting extremists in their backyard, we keep the fight away from home, caused them to use limited resources fighting trained servicemen rather than use those resources planning to attack western targets.

    Is there really a question why we went into Afghanistan? You can debate Iraq all day (by the way, even resources is not the worst reason to fight). But our presence their drew dirtbags from throughout the ME.

    Who is more free? The people of Iraq.

  70. lylelaws says:

    xring,

    Semper Fi and thanks for your service to our country.

    Four members of my family served in the Corps including my dad who walked with a profound limp as the result of a wound he received in WWI.

  71. Xring you do not know me but I know your type…Your ilk is driving us into poverty. You sit there behind a computer screen, anonymous, pretending to be righteous, you’re a scared dog that’s all.. …Do not pretend to know my type, at least I put my real first name out there, how about the rest of you, both on the left and on The Right? Pathetic…all of you…

  72. CT7,

    “must fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here” was used to justify both Korea and Vietnam.

    The main problem with that philosophy is that the US is so bad at fighting insurrections that we end up making more enemies then friends.

    The Afghan questions are not why we went there but:

    why we occupied the country,

    why we thought we could win there when no one (including Alexander the Great) had ever been able to win, and

    why we thought we could turn the country into a western democracy.

    As to Iraq and Afghanistan: are they safer now – hell no they are not.

    Lyle, military service does seem to run in some families. I have two family members who graduated from Annapolis and West Point, and both told me they had people in their companies that were the 5th and 6th generations of their families to have attended the respective service academy.

    JimK – is that all you have – pathetically inept personal attacks?

  73. X- we defeated an insurgency in Iraq. We freed the Iraqi and the world of an evil dictator.

    Afghanistan has its own, different challenges. Defeating an insurgency is a complicated problem, and rare in history. Does that mean we cannot defeat it? Perhaps it is more a matter of scale, of accepted violence in a lawless land, as long as the violence stays away from western interests. Afghanistan always had a form of democracy.

  74. sumyungboi says:

    I have to wonder if the letter writer has any real world experience, or is just regurgitating what some professor or teacher (also with no real world experience) has laid down. As a Libertarian (and a vet), I have no problem debating the merits of what we do, but I do insist that we be educated beforehand, which the letter writer clearly is not.

  75. Beerboy says, “1975 I went to register for the draft and they told me to hold off because an announcement was coming soon – that registration of the draft was over.”

    Beerboy…Dale says to double check yourself……The draft ended early in the year 1973…by the time your 1975 “announcement” came along the all volunteer miliraty had been in place for a couple years. ;)

  76. Gary — I would suggest that by requiring that EVERYONES children be involved in war… we as a people would notice much more…

  77. CT7 – keep deluding yourself

    – the iraq insurrection ended because we left – had we not left we would still be fighting.

    – Afghanistan has never had anything resembling a democracy – the LOYAL JINGA is a mass meeting and may to the uninformed resemble a democratic gathering is actually a meeting of tribal elders who are the only ones who discuss and vote on the issues.

    JimK – you are right – you don’t know me – but I know you – ascribing your actions to others is know as transference and is indicative of you deep psychological issues.

  78. X- I spent 3 years there, and you are going to tell me what happened? No. By Jan 08, after the populous had enough and AQI ran out of cash, enemy action stopped. The Shia basically won since they control govt, no need for Sadr and crew to fight.

    But tell me again how much you know. I was there a year later and saw the transition. I saw our pols cut and run first hand. But please, enlighten me.

  79. LeePHill says:

    “CT7 says:
    June 30, 2012 at 6:04 pm X- we defeated an insurgency in Iraq.”

    “An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority”

    So the United States defeated the insurgents who opposed Sadam Hussein, the constituted authority?

    This is a perfect example of how the right wing sound machine will say something enough times and the less than intelligent will repeat and believe it.

    Insurgents, according to the real definition, would have been those opposing Sadam, so why would the United States want to defeat them?

    As PT Barnum said…..a sucker is born every minute.

  80. LeePHill says:

    “lylelaws says:
    June 30, 2012 at 11:57 am LeePHill,
    The reason I inquired if you, BeerBoy, Charlie and Sword had served is not because I condem people who didn’t but because many of us who did get tired of hearing folks like you boys and the letter writer who spend so much time finding fault with our country and not defending it when the chips are down.”

    Since you wish to continue Lyle….let me ask…when did Vietnam attack the United States? They didn’t. Therefore the Vietnam War had nothing to do with “defending the US”. We were only there because huge corporations needed military to defend their money making systems, which is exactly what this letter is about.

    Had the country needed defending, I would have had no problem being there. Since the war of my time had nothing to do with the defense of our country, I didn’t volunteer.

    Now which BS faux patriotic crap will you pull out this time?

  81. Hill, the new Iraqi Constitution was signed in 2005. Try again. We fought a doctrinal counter insurgency, and won. What American would not be proud?

    Anti-war, or anti-Iraq war, if America’s troops and monies were involved, would you rather see us win or lose?

    As to your response to LL, do you see yourself looking for conspiracy theories to justify history vs reason?

  82. To the rest of progressive’s that come across this blog- are you proud to associate yourself with the Hill Bros. (not the coffee)? Who would??!

  83. beerBoy says:

    XBJ98N

    The Draft was over in 1973, the mandatory REGISTRATION for the Draft ended in 1975.

    You should check yourself before “correcting” my facts.

  84. “all it took was a whole bunch of “Good Germans” to allow the militaristic, nationalistic policies based upon glorification of the Fatherland.”

    Conversely,we have seen “Good Americans” allow the moral breakdown of our society in the name of progress.

  85. harleyrider1 says:

    Well “xring”, yes, as a matter of fact the term “operations” means a lot to me.

    The Vietnam “operation” especially had its impact on 58,138 Americans and the rest of us that served then. For many of us, it changed our lives forever. Forever.

    We – meaning the Americans at home – were not all in because War was not declared. And because War was not declared, American soldiers were denied the use of all their weaponry. And because War was not declared, it was protracted for politics.

    If America must engage in battle, all of us need to clearly be in; Congress needs to declare War so our military can use every weapon that this Country decided to build in lieu of everything else it could have done.

    So unlike you, I do not like Presidential conflicts or as you like to call them “operations”. They commit only certain families and neighbors to a lifetime of emotional payment; they commit our economy to diverting monies we do not have; and they are not according to the Constitution.

    I am a proud Marine. I have served. But I want my Marines in when we are all in. Thus my phrase, “all in or all out”.

  86. LeePHill says:

    CT7 – don’t blame me for your lack of knowledge of the definition of “insurgent”.

    The “insurgents” of Iraq were those defending THEIR country from the foreign invaders…..YOU KNOW WHO….

    Maybe you can help Lyle with telling me who the US was defending itself against during the Vietnam War.

    All of your slogans and crappola don’t change the reality of history.

  87. Sroldguy says:

    “Maybe you can help Lyle with telling me who the US was defending itself against during the Vietnam War.”

    Communism and the Domino Theory

  88. LeePHill says:

    Sroldguy: Yeah…..uh huh. It was one more case of the US invading a country to defend business interests of private corporations.

    “communism”, “domino theory”, “insurgnets”, “terrorism”

    As I said, PT Barnum was right…

  89. Interesting that while many Americans don’t want to acknowledge all that is special and wonderful about America, immigrants, some legal, some not seem to share a potent belief that life is better in the USA.
    And it is. But it won’t be if we don’t protect that which makes us unique in all the world.

  90. Harley,Harley,

    Viet Nam, like Korea, was a police action.

    Lebanon, Granda, Panama, and Somali are examples of OOTW.

    I,like you, agree with the Powell Doctrine – military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engage.

    To me that means the troops need to be will trained and our equipment the best available. Also, sometimes our special forces are a better tool to accomplish the mission as they did initially in Afghanistan.

    I also like Patton’s Truism – you don’t win a war by dying for your country, but by making the other fellow die for his.

    Prior to our intervention in Viet Nam, the Joint Chiefs told President Johnson we would need 500,000 troops on the ground within the first year. The President was disinclined to do so for political reasons.

    Personally, the most galling thing about the War is that in spite of all our efforts and sacrifices, and all our pain and suffering, the North won in the since that they now control all of Viet Nam.

  91. ps: the double Harley was a posting error, not a snarky commentary.

  92. CT7 – Are you aware that the story of the three blind men and the elephant is an allegory for war?

    Of the 4,486 US deaths in Iraq, 578 occurred after 1 Jan 08. What happened in 08 was the war shifted from a four sided war (US and allies, al-Quida, Sunni, Shiite) to a three sided war (US/allies, Sunni, Shiite) and is now a very active two side civil war.

    Another thing you fail to see is that the overall standard of living in Iraq is much lower now than under SH.

    Saozo, maybe the US should go back to being a good friend and neighbor, and stop spending so much on defense.

  93. X- nice to see you understand something about the players in Iraq war, but you are 100% wrong on the standard of living comment.

    Not only have our huge investments started to pay off (power, water), but now that they can sell their oil the country is rolling in cash. Power usage is up many times over from pre-war levels. The streets were booming with commerce. All the added oil money also means increased services all around.

    Is there still violence? Yes. Will there always be violence between the Sunni/Shia? Most likely. It took a violent dictator to keep the peace, having to use whole divisions to quell uprisings in the 90s.

  94. http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com/

    Conclusion:
    insome ways the country is better off now than before the war;

    there are wide varitations in living standards between rual and urban areas and between classes;

    while there has been some improvement since 2003, overall the standard or living is below what it was in 1980.

    Those who want to augure weather or not US intervention hurt or helped can find numbers supporting both sides.

    Hopefully, everyone can agree that the iraqi’s deserve better than what they currently have.

  95. lylelaws says:

    xring,

    Without disclosing your name, rank, or serial number, when, where, and under what conditions (armed coflicts)if any, did you serve in the USMC?

    Just curious.

  96. Viet Nam November 66 to July 68;

    July 70 – in Officer’s Basic School expecting orders for second tour as Marine Infrantry Officer when Pairs Peace Accords were announced.

  97. beerBoy says:

    sozo – You are stating that all American military actions are for the protection of the US and, furthermore, implying that anyone who doesn’t blindly accept that as fact doesn’t think that there is anything good about the US.

    This is even broader a swipe against “peaceniks” than the usual tack of claiming that anyone who criticizes the warmongering decisions of the civilians in power are somehow denigrating those who serve in the military.

    I suggest you (and the other blind supporters of US militaristic policy) listen to what Smedley Butler had to say
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0

  98. I am not a blind supporter of U.S. military actions, just asking folks to consider a few things. Am I mistaken that thousands of people are trying to leave their homelands and make their way to America? Touring parts of Africa several years ago, strangers daily attempted to get my contact information just so they might be able to use it as a means of securing permission to enter the U.S. with the hopes that they could come here. The U.S. is not faultless, not by any means. In fact I cringe at what we have become in many ways…and yet, we remain the hope of the destitute. Why is that?

    As for a generalized contempt for the military among many U.S.citizens, you are utterly naive if you do not recognize this bBoy.
    Even among those who claim to support the troops, many confess to a generalized disdain for the military, presuming it is made up of hawks and warmongers. It is not.

    Absurd as it is, many media-soaked Americans take their cues about others from what they see in movies. You tell me, bBoy, how is the military generally depicted by Hollywood? And how are Christians depicted? How about gay people? Where but Hollywood could a foul-mouthed homely woman like Kathy Griffin or Griffith make millions of dollars for being openly vulgar and hateful?

    Perhaps things ared different in your world, but among the masses?

  99. LeePHill says:

    “Not only have our huge investments started to pay off (power, water), but now that they can sell their oil the country is rolling in cash.”

    And for this, our country is in record debt?

    Brilliant.

  100. LeePHill says:

    “a foul-mouthed homely woman like Kathy Griffin”

    Someone has an obsession with Griffin, who I don’t find homely at all. Now I might find the commenter ugly, but ugliness is a quality that need not mean outward appearance.

  101. mcgintey says:

    What a pitiful array of angry writers, when you step back and view the entire stream. No wonder wars will never be outdated when so many have to shout “their opinions” as the only true opinion.

  102. According to the news report I saw yesterday, not only are we training the Afgans how to fight, we are now teaching them to read and write. My question is this, who taught the Taliban to read, write and fight? Something tells me that this is a gigantic waste of time, money and lives.

  103. xring, that’s “Paris” not ” Pairs”. You were an officer candidate in the Marines? hmmmmmm..

  104. xring, Another thing.. When did the Marines begin requiring people to serve 20 month tours in RVN? I haven’t heard that one yet. The only people I know who stayed longer than 12-13 months were those who volunteered, mostly “REMFS” and Saigon warriors.

  105. SwordofPerseus says:

    Sozo said, “Where but Hollywood could a foul-mouthed homely woman like Kathy Griffin or Griffith make millions of dollars for being openly vulgar and hateful?”

    I can think of three examples, Rush Limbaugh , Glen Beck or Bill O’Riely.

    Back to the letter writers point, why are we choosing to kill and waste with such recklessness? Blind patriotism and a misplaced feelings of supremacy has led this country to near ruin, we have not been so divided politically since the Civil War.

    I believe that we should have never gone “war” with Iraq. There was no justification, lies do not make a just cause. I believe the people who led that war should be prosecuted for war crimes, including perjury and possibly treason. These are fair charges considering the level of responsibility that our leaders are charged with…We are not “safer” we are much deeper in debt as a nation, we are far behind the top nations in this world in health care, education and sadly infrastructure. The chips are down, it’s the eleventh hour and all we can do is fight over two unqualified people for president and argue endlessly over wars of aggression against politically weak, resource rich countries.

    We all deserve better, this is still a good country, we peoples of the US are caring and giving people in general. Let’s try to be more thoughtful and less reactionary. To quote Winston Churchill ~ “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, but only after they have tried everything else.”

  106. Interesting. I used to think Kathy G. was cute, until she opened her mouth. Just confirming that beauty is about what’s inside LeeP.

    I believe Limbaugh has been crude and vulgar as well, and I don’t like him either.

    I believe Beck and O’Reilly just get thrown if whenever someone from the left begins to rant about opposing views. Neither of them is vulgar or crude…as a rule.

  107. Ortingmom says:

    Don’t forget your buddies; Bill Mahr,Joy Behar,Rosie O’Donnell………

  108. BlaineCGarver says:

    We’ve heard from Bevis…Now, where’s Butthead, as he must be close behind.

  109. Blaine is is close “behind” as you put it. It’s S.O.P!

  110. Blaine, he is close “behind”, it’s S.O.P..

  111. I like Limbaugh because he’s usually right about everything he says and the libs hate him. When the libs hate someone that much, he must be good.

  112. Ortingmom, oh heck!! You just went and spoiled a perfectly good day. By mentioning those sickos, I’m now despondent and feel like throwing up. The mere mention of those low-lifes makes me sick to my stomach.

  113. Frosty,
    AFGHAN = a person from Afghanistan
    AFGHANS plural of Afghan.
    Afghani = Afganistan currency.

    Us training the AFGHANS how to fight is about like asking Central Washington trying to teach USC how to play football.

    All the AFGANS need, or want, from us is logistical support, not lessons on how to fight, and most assuredly not lessons on how to fight in their own country, against other AFHGANS.

    And I became an Marine Officer – after a 13 month basic tour, 45 days level and travel time, 6 month volunteer extension of Combat tour. My tour was so far in the rear that I qualified for my Combat Action Ribbon at a quiet, fun filled place called Khe Sanh.

    ‘close behind’ is better than a ‘closed mind’ aka a ‘right wing mind’

  114. Xring writes, “Viet Nam November 66 to July 68; July 70 – in Officer’s Basic School expecting orders for second tour as Marine Infrantry Officer when Pairs Peace Accords were announced.”

    I’m curious xring….Was the Officers Basic School a two and a half year course? Seems a bit long. The Peace Accords as you should know, were signed at the end of January 1973, and your course began in July of 1970?

    Seems to me you would have finished the course and completed TWO tours before the accords were signed.

  115. XBJ98N
    The Draft was over in 1973, the mandatory REGISTRATION for the Draft ended in 1975.
    You should check yourself before “correcting” my facts.

    So sorry Beerboy, I stand corrected….however such things as draft registration are a bit foreign to me…while you and yours were registering….I was SERVING. I registered for the draft in 1972 as part of my enlistment…the recruiter sent me around the corner to register, because “I had to”, and “get my card” as he was putting my enlistment papers together….I gave him my card, and have no idea what my number was….and on to SERVE I did.

    By the way, there is STILL a “mandatory” draft registration today. Check YOUR facts.

  116. SwordofPerseus says:

    Just as I suspected not one real reply, not one word of discussion about why we are wasting our blood and treasure. Republicons, you deserve the title as dumb as box of rocks. As for butthead, blankcgarver takes the first place prize as BBS forum butt-head.

  117. beerBoy says:

    By the way, there is STILL a “mandatory” draft registration today. Check YOUR facts.

    “In 1980, Congress re-instated the requirement that young men register with the Selective Service System.”

    Again – google is your friend.

    From 1975-1980, the requirement to register for the draft was removed.

  118. beerBoy says:

    To be precise, your use of the word “still” is only appropriate if you are referring to the practice that has continued since 1980. If you are referring back to Vietnam era registration requirements the correct word is “again”.

    I do check my facts. Do you?

  119. xring, since you want to correct my spelling of “Afghan”, that’s fine, I was remiss. However, as a Marine officer, shouldn’t you at least know how to spell “infantry”? As for the “Combat Action Ribbon”, I’m not familiar with that, since it is not a recognized Army citation, however I know that anyone who happened to be in-country in RVN was awarded a “Campaign Ribbon”. My point is, so what?

  120. XB – I returned to CONUS in July ’68 but did not report to OCS till Feb ’70.

    The actual event that precluded a second tour was the drawdown of forces commonly known as Vietnamization, which was a precondition for the talks that lead to the accords. I just lumped them together.

    Frosty – misspelling or typo? I knew what you meant as I’a sure you knew what I meant.

    Don’t remember discussing ribbons and awards but the Combat Action Ribbon (CAR) is similar to a Combat Infantryman Badge but the CIB is somewhat more difficult to earn.

  121. (XB- I returned to CONUS in July ’68 but did not report to OCS till Feb ’70.
    The actual event that precluded a second tour was the drawdown of forces commonly known as Vietnamization, which was a precondition for the talks that lead to the accords. I just lumped them together.)

    Got it xring…..I was hoping there was going to be clarification ;) Apologies for any latent doubts….These days there just seems to be a heck of a lot of Vietnam “posers” ;)

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