Letters to the Editor

Your views in 200 words or less

PLURALISM: Liberals aren’t the oppressors

Letter by Annie Russell, Gig Harbor on June 19, 2012 at 1:25 pm with 146 Comments »
June 19, 2012 2:58 pm

Usually conservatives hide the differences between liberal and conservative values. But Michael Gerson (column, 6-19) freely admits how liberalism exalts the values of “equality and choice,” while conservatism seeks to conserve “exclusive, traditional … sectarian beliefs and hierarchical authority.”

But then Gerson dives into the conservative philosophical mire, stating that “liberal” government defends “individual rights against every form of oppression, public and private,” thus running roughshod over defenseless conservatives and their cherished hierarchy.

In contrast, he maintains, conservatives favor “pluralism” – government that tolerates traditional values and institutions – as long as they aren’t too offensive. So a conservative government has tolerance for the Amish, but not the human-sacrificing Aztecs.

Gerson’s ire for the autocratic liberals focuses on Obama’s imposition of free contraceptives on the Catholic Church. This, he says, is despicable and exactly the kind of disregard for pluralism that causes the “cultural wars.”

In what universe is Gerson living? Liberals are not seeking to squelch such beliefs and practices, anachronistic as they are. Liberal government has not oppressed the Amish (except for forcing them to put reflectors on their buggies). Catholics are not being forced to abandon beliefs; those simply may not be imposed on their employees.

Rather it is conservatives, themselves, who actively seek to oppress the majority of Americans: black, brown, Asian, non-Christian, immigrant, Native American, poor, gay, lesbian, transgender and anyone else outside of WASPish notions of conformity. The “cultural wars” are not caused by liberal progress; they are spawned by conservative reaction to being blocked from thwarting true American values.

Leave a comment Comments → 146
  1. GHTaxPayer says:

    Annie – wake up and smell the 1.5 Million murdered babies thanks to Democrat funding of Planned Parenthood, the attack on religious freedom by Obama admin, attempts to stifle free speech numerous times in the last 5 years by Media Matters and Soros funded NBC.

    Also did you know that Conservative Republicans fought civil war against progressive Liberals that wanted to keep slaves?

    Did you know that a higher percentage of Conservatives voted for Civil Rights laws than Liberal Dems?

    And Liberals ARE seeking to squelch religious beliefs and practices at every turn. Many Dem organizations have fought to keep creationism from being taught in public schools – even though 52% of Americans believe in creationism and Big Bang theory is bogus.

    How about the Dem-donating NY Principal that refuses to allow children to sing “God Bless America” ?

    You must be a young naive person who only watches bigoted MSNBC.

  2. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    Liberal ideas were developed in the good old days when landowners, slave owners, and business owners were the bad guys.

    But now a new justice movement has emerged onto the political radar to counter progressivisms. Only this time it is not a liberal movement, enthusiastically supported by our liberal friends. Instead this movement is anti-liberal and has arisen to oppose the injustices of liberalism. They are called the Tea Party.

    As you might expect, our liberal friends are not reacting very well. Protest, civil disobedience, mass meetings are one thing when they are used for a progressive purpose. When used by the Tea Party liberals talk of “incivility”, of “terrorism”, of racism, and worse.
    Over the last few weeks we have seen a ton of bad behavior from liberals on this matter. Union leaders called for a war on the Tea Party but it’s the liberals that find they are being hunted by governors and their voters all over this country. Thanks Scott Walker.

    Liberals are responding to their troubles badly. My guess is that we ain’t seen nothing yet.

  3. menopaws says:

    The conservatives did a nice little propaganda war on turning the word “liberal’ into something ugly…….Say a lie over and over and over and it becomes the truth in the minds of the feeble. The civil rights movement was pushed through the Congress by Lyndon Johnson who, during his years in the Senate, learned how to get things accomplished. He was a true rarity, a self-described Texas LIBERAL. He made it possible for people of color to vote and sit on the same buses as whites—he had little respect or help from Republicans……Re-writing history will NOT fly when some of us during the 60’s participated in those civil disobiedence demonstrations to ensure equality in this nation. And, I was one of them–a college student, and a proud liberal. I got called a communist, a terrorist by those who cherished the status quo. This country only moves forward when people INSIST it must. The Republican base is mostly white and male and within the next 10 years will be a MINORITY vote in this country. Judging from the above blogs–it can’t happen soon enough. Great letter Annie and I agree—–but name-calling is the refuge of the stupid…..so, just be glad that the real liberals of this country know how to laugh!!!!! A sense of humor is required to read Mr. Gerson and Charles the Shrink………..

  4. beautiful letter/expose annie, kudos.

  5. The “cultural wars” are not caused by liberal progress; they are spawned by conservative reaction to being blocked from thwarting true American values.

    Amen to that!

  6. You know the letter speaks the truth when it’s attacks with lies form the hard right baggers.
    Nice job Annie!

  7. tommy98466 says:

    menopaws… you are right. Liberalism is ugly every time it rears its head. What you and Annie miss is not that the government is trying to restrict Catholic teachings its that the government is forcing them to pay for a procedure that they do not believe in. So they ARE forcing Catholics to be involved in what they don’t want to be involved in. See the difference?

  8. GHT,

    ‘planned parenthood’ – is that one of the pluristic beliefs of conceratives,or is it a women are inferiou and ment will decide for them.

    ‘liberal dems who voted against the civil rights acts’ were mainly southern democrates who individulally and collectively were the most conserative block in the democratic party at that time.

    Under Nixon this group and their supporters became the WORM branch of the Republicon Party.

    ‘52% believe in creatilonism’ – 2011 Fox News Poll places the number at 45% – down from 50% in 1999.

    Taxed,

    Don’t know, and know care, where you get you information, BUT one hears ‘incivility’, ‘terrorism’, and ‘racism’ spewed by right wing noise and hate machines at liberals, progressives, and the occupy much more often that at the Tea Party.

  9. Great talking points. You must of got them from MSNBC or Media Matters. You know, the ones who constantly edit and cut the news to fit their agenda. If telling lies to the public 24/7 is not a form of tyranny, what is? Especially when those lies are intended to affect the outcome of a presidential election. You can listen to Andrea Mitchell, “Brutha” Al Sharpton, Ed “Sgt” Schultz, Chris Matthews or any number of the talkers on CNN and MSNBC at anytime to hear the lies and outright hate coming from them. Get back to that koolaid Annie.

  10. philichi says:

    Annie
    Taking from those who have and giving to those who have not always sounds so nice. However, liberals start to get very ugly. Stalin, Mao, lenin, and Castro are a few liberals. They represent millions in deaths. Hitler took from the rich Jews and put them in camps.

    At least conservatives just want to cut our taxes not our necks.

  11. But giving to and helping the poor is so Biblical.

  12. Excellent and true points in the letter that are painful for conservatives to face in reality. So they deny the truth by obfuscating. I think there is a disease that presents those characteristics. It certainly is extreme.

  13. What a joke! The Liberals are telling us what the Conservatives are thinking and the Conservatives are thinking.

    Maybe each should speak for themselves and stop trying to second guess the other side. Tell us what you are thinking not what you think the other guy is thinking.

  14. What a joke! The Liberals are telling us what the Conservatives are thinking and the Conservatives are telling us what the Liberals are thinking thinking.

  15. bobcat1a says:

    Liberals continually are pointing out that we have limited resources which should be more equitably distributed and conservatives insist that we have unlimited resources which must be mostly reserved for the benefit of the worthy few. Which side would Jesus choose?

  16. X- big difference between ‘giving’ and having it taken and handed to someone who may not be worthy. To the left the poor is a protected group of victims. Is that a true statement?

  17. menopaws says:

    Who decides who is “worthy”, Ct7 ????? And to those who use Hitler as a “liberal”—please go read a history book, would you??? The greatest enemy to conservatives these days is their own ignorance……….I refuse to engage with someone who honestly thinks Hitler was a liberal………..Need to take your shoes off to count to 20?? Like I said—those with a sense of humor survive the name-calling of the dim witted…..Keep it up–those feeble minds are really scurrying around now, aren’t they???

  18. Stalin, Mao, lenin, and Castro are a few liberals. They represent millions in deaths. Hitler took from the rich Jews and put them in camps.

    All of the above listed were vehemently anti-liberal in their stances. It would be really helpful to the conversation if you “conservatives” took some time to truly educate yourself. At least aislander will admit that free market capitalism in America is supported by what he calls “Classical” Liberalism (an oxymoron). But then he turns around and uses the Talk Radio created strawman termed “liberal” that is every evil that ever existed.

  19. menopaws says:

    Beer boy–thanks……Sometimes it is just stunning to me the level of sheer ignorance on these blogs……Name-calling should have some basis in reality, don’t you think??? At least when I call them stupid–these blogs help me prove it!!!!!

  20. APinkFreud says:

    Ann… your argument is captured very clearly in Chris Mooney’s new book, “The Republican Brain”:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE4RFUhggXY
    or to quote Stephen Colbert “”Reality has a well-known liberal bias.”

  21. Annie, your liberal angst panties are in a bunch. Conservatives, like liberals come in all varieties and colors. Neither can define the other without resorting to vacuous and broad statements, mostlty collected from too much TV, such as your tirade.
    Conservatives can be fiscally conservative and socially moderate, Liberals could be far left and fiscally conservative.
    I’m sure you could find a Liberal that attends a church and a Jewish Conservative.
    There may even be a Liberal with common sense, but with support of racism in affirmative action, coddling criminals and taxing the middle class to support the welfare state, I have not found one.

  22. “Many Dem organizations have fought to keep creationism from being taught in public schools – even though 52% of Americans believe in creationism and Big Bang theory is bogus.”

    Those must by some of the 70% of Americans who still believed in 2003 that Saddam was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

  23. “Stalin, Mao, lenin, and Castro are a few liberals”

    LOL – just like Hitler, Mussolini, and Pinochet were a few conservatives. And that Timothy McVeigh was such a nice, quiet, clean-cut young man.

  24. philichi says:

    I have never been able to figure out the left. They always talk so highly about their redistributive goals. They seem to highlight their big issues like disparity in incomes and wealth etc. Obama said that he “just wanted to spread the wealth around” or in his case, spread his misery around.

    The great liberals like Mao, Stalin, Castro, and Hitler really achieved these goals. Remember, every business or house that was lost by a Jew was given to another German. What is not liberal about this?

    Why aren’t you liberals proud of your heritage? I am proud of my heroes like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.

  25. aislander says:

    De Tocqueville said that freedom is lost in the small things. The real oppressors are those who are regulating us within an inch of our lives and creating the mechanism to steal larger freedoms…

  26. Do not expect the folks here to appreciate the wisdom of your comment WGB. It is easier to pigeon hole everybody and presume to know what folks are thinking.

  27. “I have never been able to figure out the left.”-philichi

    You finally admit that in all of your previous comments about Liberals, you didn’t know what you were talking about.
    Why don’t you just let the Liberals tell you what they’re thinking instead of trying to put your ridiculous sounding words in their mouths?

  28. aislander says:

    Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, the highest-ranking official ever to have defected from the former Soviet bloc, who served as a top aide in the Romanian communist regime, tells Accuracy in Media, “The Democratic Party has become dangerously infected with the Marxism virus. I recognize the symptoms because I once lived through them, and I believe it is my obligation as an American citizen to help the conservative movement to prevent any further spread of Marxism in my adopted country.”

    Now THOSE guys knew how to oppress! The regime seem to be fast learners, though…

  29. menopaws says:

    Lord–the whack jobs forgot to pick up their meds this month, didn’t they???? If you want to talk stupid and make absolutely NO sense, get together and have coffee…….The mentally impaired blogs I am seeing here are written by people who never took a history course, never read a serious book and apparently, don’t know the difference between communism, socialism, fascism and democracy……..Buy a dictionary and do the rest of us a favor. go be stupid somewhere else–I’d feel sorry for you if you would just stop making fools of yourselves on this blog….It’s really very pathetic stuff and you are living examples of what is wrong with our educational system…….Be quiet and don’t humiliate yourselves any further……..I am being very serious–this kind of ignorance is not something you should openly show to others…..Quoting a defected Communist General yet…..who is next–a relative of Hitler’s? Your brother-in-law who knew a guy who was a socialist?? That’s all you have got to prove liberals are like Nazi’s or communists??? Dumb and dumber rejoice–your family has been found.

  30. philichi – I’m thinking that you are one of those folks who don’t understand that Stephen Colbert is a parody persona and that truthiness isn’t the same as truth.

  31. “I am proud of my heroes like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.”

    Not to mention that nice, quiet, clean-cut Timothy McVeigh.

  32. “The great liberals like Mao, Stalin, Castro, and Hitler really achieved these goals. Remember, every business or house that was lost by a Jew was given to another German. What is not liberal about this?”

    Don’t you conservative ever get tired of telling nothing but lies all the time?

  33. “The Democratic Party has become dangerously infected with the Marxism virus.”

    And of course you swallowed it.
    a********r, do you ever think for yourself?
    I mean really, this idiot says something you agree with and it’s supposed to mean something, it’s supposed to prove something?
    Come on man…..

  34. Klu, who is your dem hero? From the last 60 years, who can you point to? Thanks!

  35. averageJoseph says:

    You’d be surprised how many lefties don’t understand that Stephen Colbert is a parody persona.

  36. And Jon Stewart is not a journalist…

  37. “Klu, who is your dem hero?”

    Only idiots and fools have politicians for heros.
    I see you claim saint ronnie the liar and a lesbian from Briton as your heros, nice work.

  38. I did no such thing, but I do not question those choices.

    Pick a hero.

    And for a progressive, you were quick to use lesbian as a derogatory term. Typical.

  39. philichi says:

    menopaws: my friend, you have told me to read a history book. It was part of my major in college. I not only read lots of books, I wrote papers too. Now, why don’t you like fellow lefties? Do you believe in big government are not? I real big government liberal will take your house and give it to another. A conservative, like Ronald Reagan, says that Government is the problem. You should be embracing the great liberals. Marx, Lenin, Castro, Mao, and yes, Hitler. No, this is not a misprint. Conservatives don’t like government. Liberals like it big. If Hitler was a conservative he would have been offering tax cuts and balanced budgets, Not starting a new cabinet hold and kill! Rememeber a Government that can give you stuff needs to take it from another. The Jew worked for Hitler. He was a liberaln

  40. “And for a progressive, you were quick to use lesbian as a derogatory term. Typical.”

    I did no such thing.

  41. menopaws says:

    Philchi–I have a degree in history too…….Saying what you say doesn’t make it so….I meant what I said—ignorance of reality and using terms casually is the refuge of the stupid. I stand by my assessment and have read nothing to change that. the other thing about being a “liberal” is knowing the difference between facts, definitions and spin. …..You can take me on with knowledge and facts—but these days, I see that is seldom the case…..Read some definitions in the dictionary before you throw labels around—having a degree doesn’t make you smart…..continuing to learn does.

  42. You’d be surprised how many lefties don’t understand that Stephen Colbert is a parody persona.

    That attempt at wit was just plain stupid. C’mon, try a little harder – maybe re-read your post before pressing “Submit Comment”.

  43. Meno- if you want to be respected as “smart”, why write in your improper style?

  44. averageJoseph says:

    I know… and I dovetailed off you anyway.

    Sad thing is… it’s true. On more than a few occasions I’ve had a lib friend look me in the eye with a straight face and say they get their news from Stewart and Colbert. Seriously.

  45. averageJoseph says:

    Oh, and thanks for lookin’ out for me bB. I love the condescention and the way you think you’re so above it all. LMAO.

  46. menopaws says:

    Ct7—It’s a blog–not War and Peace…….You want better organization try reading the paper sometimes. I read the Oregonian on my IPad every day, along with the TNT……….And, when I do write for those who appreciate it–I do all the right things….But, you are, by nature a nit-picker and that’s your choice……Mine is to treat this as recreation—not an class assignment…….However, I haven’t noticed you doing anything all that correct–so, glass houses and stones comes to mind……Cheap shots are all yours–and I choose to ignore……

  47. aislander says:

    Since certain people have already been mentioned and no one threw a flag, I have to point out that all authoritarian regimes and their shock troops need a villain to scapegoat.

    I read a persuasive argument that Jews were chosen for that purpose by one such regime, first because they were good businessmen, and second because they could be isolated as the “other.”

    Is it a coincidence that “banksters” and “the one percent” have been chosen for that purpose by the Obama regime and ITS shock troops?

  48. menopaws says:

    And, aislander what do you imagine will happen to them???Will someone take their Lexus or revoke their Country Club membership? Give me a break–think before you speak……please……No one is going to herd them into concentration camps………Maybe their taxes will go up—maybe they will lose some loopholes……Maybe they won’t be able to buy a lobbyist or politician anymore…..Cry me a river and get real…..The rich are not like what happened in Germany—-it had nothing to do with being rich….There were plenty of WORKING CLASS Jews…….And, it didn’t matter what their income or status was……..So, quit with this really, really stupid idea that this is all about Nazi Germany…….Really???? Really????And, please, where are those SHOCK TROOPS….A bit reality challenged today????Go take those meds and wait 20 minutes and come back, okay? Is their a full moon now? Just wondering…..

  49. CT7 – Even the Bible says the poor should be protected. The Bible does not say that the Rich need to be protected.

  50. aislander says:

    Have yuh seen the video from, say, Oakland, meno? Did you hear about the terrified twelve-year-old boy who was trapped inside his parents house by a mob of SEIU thugs out to corner his banker father?

    Don’t try to tell me there are no present-day brown shirts. Ours wear masks, stab cops, and carry factory-made signs…

  51. aislander says:

    By the way, “bankers” is a code-word for Jews…

  52. What about the mob in New York that tried to shout down a bunch of school kids when they tried to sing ” God Bless America”? Is this what these lousy liberals are so proud of?

  53. menopaws says:

    Every day in this country–young black mails are detained because of their color…….Bankers being a code word for Jews, aislander, identifies who you are……..Code word—moron……..The black helicopters are now circling over your house……go hide and go away………They are coming for you–I see a Burger King uniform in your future for you—-know a “Jew” banker who can save you????? You insult good people of color and faith by that post………

  54. aislander says:

    Why, menopaws, if I didn’t have a higher opinion of you, I would have to say you are trying to marginalize me and shut me up!

    You must know that the left is the home of antisemitism. Right?

  55. aislander says:

    …and, aside from mentioning former scapegoats used by left-wing authoritarian regimes (not the regime WE have now, but other ones…), I don’t recall saying anything derogatory about ANY minority (except lefties, of course), and certainly nothing about “people of color and faith.”

    Did you know that the term “people of color” was derogatory and sardonic because of its grandiloquence? Not any more, I guess, because people are less sensitive to the subtleties of language and the undertones and connotations of words and phrases–that damned educational system of ours, don’t you know?

  56. Paws- black postal workers are what?

  57. Public racism. Where is the TNT? Keep the playing field even.

  58. aislander says:

    I thought it was a sort of extortion, CT7. Oh, wait: that was the whole OWS thing. You must be right, I guess. Postal workers…

  59. notimetobleed says:

    What is wrong with being socially liberal but fiscally conservative?

  60. Notime- nothing. There is nothing wrong with any belief as long as it affects no one else. That is the primary difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals want something from a select group, while conservatives just want to be left alone.

  61. aJ – as a kid I used to keep up with current events by watching Johnny Carson’s monologues. He would reference something, I didn’t get the joke and so I had to look it up in the paper. Since Stewart and Colbert’s humor is all centered on current events and politics I don’t see any difference……and it is certainly better “news” than the pabulum they put out on ABC “News”.

  62. Really aislander? Any complaints about the 1% and the financial sector is just like Auscwitz because you say that “bankers is code for Jews”!!???!!

    Wow! You really have become rather desperate in your rhetoric when you start becoming as much of a caricature as Seinfeld’s Uncle Leo.

  63. menopaws says:

    Trying to reason with the crazy and paranoid is like having a erotic dream about Donald Trump……..Not worth the effort……..

  64. LOL, meno hit the nail on the head! Why any of you attempt to reason with her, Kluwer or the writer of this letter escapes me :). There really is no reasoning with people who do no believe in the form of government our nation was founded with and on. To think that it isn’t appropriate to quote a defector who lived under Marxism that is concerned with how similar our government is becoming to Marxism is ignorant at best(and that’s just me being polite calling her “ignorant”).

  65. aislander – in Nazi Germany, “communist” was a code word for “Jew”.

    TMell – someone who lived in the USSR didn’t live under Marxism. They lived under Stalinism.

    Still don’t understand why you cons think that Marxism is relevant to the current situation. There is absolutely nothing that Obama has done that has been about giving workers control of the means of production.

  66. menopaws says:

    One other thing about conservatives……NO SENSE OF HUMOR!!!!!What is between those ears TMell?

  67. “A conservative, like Ronald Reagan, says that Government is the problem.”

    Yet it grew exponentially under his watch. Example #3498 why Reagan Idoliters are uninformed dullards.

  68. scooter6139 says:

    It is fascinating to try and understand the vast differences in world view the left and right have. Those who watch Fox and marinate in that conservative world view do not understand or accept the differing and mostly 180 shift in facts than those who watch MSNBC. I, admittedly, watch more MSNBC (Rachel Maddow) so when I watch Fox I don’t get most of what they are going on about. I am sure the opposite is true since that is the conversation I have with my in-laws from Texas whom watch Fox. The one difference is that when we argue talking points (which basically is what the left and right does), I try and do some research from a myriad of sources online to see if I or they are being misled or outright lied to. My in-laws take those spam mass emails as truth and do not go above and beyond to see if they have any truth in them or if they have grains of truth spun into an outright falsehood. (BTW – Are there liberal versions of these out there? Provide some if available please.) Both sides spin because that is politics. To accept verbatim what you are told is ignorance at best and utter stupidity at worst.

  69. aislander says:

    I would love to see a persuasive argument that success ISN’T being demonized, and that “the rich” are not being scapegoated in this country.

    I DID make a mistake up thread. I referred to “shock troops” when I meant to write “storm troopers.”

    The really funny thing about all the ginned-up protests by OWS and the unions over the past few months has been that, when violence and destruction occurred, it wasn’t the pure, innocent OWS waifs who committed it, but those rascally anarchists. As if the so-called anarchists were somehow separate from OWS!

    The anarchists and union thugs (and New Black Panthers) ARE the storm troopers of today’s left.

  70. “By the way, “bankers” is a code-word for Jews…”

    By the way, “code-word” is a wrong-wing code-word for “I’m making this up.”

  71. aislander says:

    So…when conservatives have been accused of using racist code words, that was all concocted by lefties?

    Thought so!

    Thanks for flying AislandAir…

  72. “Did you hear about the terrified twelve-year-old boy who was trapped inside his parents house by a mob of SEIU thugs out to corner his banker father?”

    Seriously a******er?? I mean just when I think you can’t sink any lower, your sewer goes down hill.

  73. BlaineCGarver says:

    More attacks by not-a-kluwer….

    Liberals HAVE to accept all and stand for nothing. The true conservatives already have most of the logical, moral men and women of all races and colors behind them.

  74. averageJoseph says:

    Here ya go kluless…

    “Readers over 30 might scoff at Stewart’s inclusion – assuming they know who he is. For many under 30, the host of Comedy Central’s “The Daily Show” is, improbably, a source for news.

    A poll released earlier this year by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press found that 21 percent of people aged 18 to 29 cited “The Daily Show” and “Saturday Night Live” as a place where they regularly learned presidential campaign news”

    From CBS non the less… LMAO.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-207_162-603270.html

  75. beerboy say’s “there is absolutely nothing that Obama has done that has been about giving workers the control of the means of production”. Oh really beerboy? Have you not heard that he gave the car manufacturers in Detroit to the unions? I guess that doesn’t count as production control in your view.

  76. Stewart and anyone who cares what he say’s or thinks are all idiots. The same with Maher and any one of the clowns who think they are funny on late night t.v. Bob Hope, Jack Benny, Red Skelton were “funny”. These modern day crack pots are not funny, they are pathetic.

  77. Ai- he does not care. Rather then even try to debate, he is just here to annoy. Forming a clearly stated argument is beyond him. I feel bad for him.

    I could not post on Monday but this …. is kept around by TNT.

  78. philichi says:

    menopaws, since you are a history major. Perhaps it is worth a little review. When Hitler came to power he needed someone to blame for the hardship that Germany was in caused by the end of WW1 and the Versailles treaty. He turned Germany’s attention to a group that they were already suspicious of, the Jews. They were very successful people. Many of the department stores, banks and businesses were run by them. They were good capitalists.

    Why are those parallels with today’s progressives so hard for you to see? By the way what is the point for you to be a history major if you can’t analyze the present and the scapegoating that is going on now? The bankers, the rich, the hedge fund managers.

    Hitler was a liberal. Embrace him. Analyze it yourself. In order for all great liberal programs to work, money needs to be taken from some and given to others. At one point, like Greece, the pyramid scheme fails. or, like Germany, (Cuba, Russia, Vietnam, China and North Korea) confiscation and killing happens. Embrace your rich culture or be prepaired to denounce it.

  79. “Rather it is conservatives, themselves, who actively seek to oppress the majority of Americans: black, brown, Asian, non-Christian, immigrant, Native American, poor, gay, lesbian, transgender and anyone else outside of WASPish notions of conformity. The “cultural wars” are not caused by liberal progress; they are spawned by conservative reaction to being blocked from thwarting true American values.”- Annie

    Judging by the tone and name calling in many of the previous posts, your statement hits the nail on the head. They’re here proving it. (Except for black. They’re past that, you know :)

  80. Yep! They got over their problem with blacks when Obama was elected President.

  81. aislander says:

    The conservative ethic is to deal with people as individuals. It is in my interest to ally myself with the most competent people in any business situation, and I am not self-destructive enough to base decisions on so trivial a factor as race.

    If you look at the posts on this thread and elsewhere, you will see that lefties are fixated on such things as race and class, not us conservatives.

    I don’t have the time and energy to waste both “oppressing” people…

  82. SwordofPerseus says:

    We are so blessed here in Tacoma, on this blog. We have a plethora of village idiots, not just one or two…The so called conservatives who post here are so depressingly ignorant of how this thing called life works, and completely fail at differentiating the good from the wicked.

  83. SwordofPerseus says:

    Phil’-Your knowledge of economics and politics is deficient at best, criminally stupid at worst.

  84. Wow menopaws…perhaps you need to look into those anger issues.

    “Buy a dictionary and do the rest of us a favor. go be stupid somewhere else–I’d feel sorry for you if you would just stop making fools of yourselves on this blog….It’s really very pathetic stuff and you are living examples of what is wrong with our educational system…”

    I wouldn’t brag about being a history major if I were you given the fast and loose revisionist nonsense that goes on in most universities.
    You learned what your liberal professors wanted you to learn, and clearly you mastered the fine art of hubris in the process. At a real university, you might have discovered the dynamic nature of language when it comes to politics.

    And I certainly wouldn’t brag about being a devotee of The Oregonian, though it helps to clarify why you view the world as you do.

  85. SwordofPerseus says:

    Hey ‘slander, I see you have not been keeping up on current events, kinda old news really. You see the “banksters” or Wall Street wolves as I prefer to call them, crashed the economy back in ’08, got bailed out, and have started right back where they left off. So they are not really a ‘scapegoat if they are in fact the perpetrator of the crime in question. Mixed metaphors aside the OWS has been peaceful, and it was the COPS(right wing) who assaulted the peaceful protesters, not the other way around as you would allege. You are so very much on the wrong side of this issue.

  86. philichi says:

    SwordofPerseus: what exactly did the bankers do wrong? Why has no one gone to jail? Should they have been turning down all of those mortgage loan requests over the years? If they would have, wouldn’t you be calling them racists etc?
    What about the people that took out the loans and never made a payment? Are they at fault too?

  87. Sword, you make meno look intelligent. I have successfully been in the mortgage business for 20 years this summer. I stayed clear of subprime lending; when BILL CLINTON created it in 1998(under the guise of….you guessed it, giving minorities the right(like it is a right) to own a home. Without having to have a down payment, verification of income, verification of assets; I shook my head when the subprime industry was created. This is what caused the housing bubble. When you have idiot borrowers borrowing monies that they have no reasonable ability to repay; and lending guidelines created with no intelligent expectation of the ability to repay-you end up upsetting the supply and demand. LOL, I was accused of all kinds of things when I refused to enter the subprime business; that I had no right not to offer an available product; who was I to say that I wouldn’t sell something that was available in the market and was pushed by Clinton’s administration as a tool to allow more low income and minority buyers become homeowners(who COULDN’T afford the homes or loans they stuck themselves with). Additionally, I am in a sales business; so you have individuals who are unscrupulous-combine them with an administration that pushed a ridiculous idea under the guise of battling “discrimination” and you have the recipe for disaster. It was so apparent to me, I sold 9 of my 11 rental properties from 2004 to 2007 as the bubble was glaringly obvious!!

  88. This is so much fun, watching liberals prove why they are the minority in this country. With people such as no-kluw, menopaws, Sword, scooter et al. I always wondered where all of the former mental patients went when they closed down the assylums back in the 60’s. Now I know. I just wasn’t aware that most of them moved to Washington.

  89. philichi says:

    swordfish say:Phil’-Your knowledge of economics and politics is deficient at best, criminally stupid at worst.

    My friend, it wasn’t I that chose to spend $800 billion of our county’s money on “cash for clunkers” State bail outs, and union give backs.

    I would have sugested something that would have paid our nation cash flow for hundreds of years like gas piplines and Nuclear power plants.

    Instead, all we have is debt. Who is really criminally stupid?

  90. philichi says:

    TMel you have just destroyed the thought pattern of every liberal on the page. They still think that Wall Street caused the collapse. Little did they know, it was the fault of everyone who leveraged up for the good life. By the way, what did they think was going to happen?

    The funny thing about this is that our nation has had a 64% home ownership rate for decades. It got to 68% in 2006. It is now back to 64%. People have simply moved back to the apartment houses that they left.

  91. “So…when conservatives have been accused of using racist code words, that was all concocted by lefties?”

    Nice use of the “but daddy, all the other kids are doing it!” excuse. What are you, eight?

  92. “I stayed clear of subprime lending”

    Thanks for disproving the oft-repeated wrong-wing lie that lending institutions were required to loan money to unqualified buyers. Thanks.

  93. took14theteam says:

    Larry, come up with some new lines. will ya.

    Maybe you and Lee can go have a nice dinner out tonight. Wait, that might end up as incest…

  94. aislander says:

    Illogical. If one set of “code words” is concocted, it IS logical to conclude that other alleged “code words” have been, as well…

  95. philichi says:

    ehill: Fannie Mae accepted everyone. Barney Frank wrote the rules. What did you think was going to happen?
    Yes, the sh-t hit the fan. People began looking at their homes as ATM machines. Of course the party was going to end eventually. Why does this surprise you? The libs had good intentions. They wanted more home ownership. Well they got it! Now all of the people that they wanted to help are living in the apartment houses that they left. We are simply waiting for the next bubble. Yes, George Bush will get the blame for it too.

  96. aislander says:

    The next bubble will be currency, I think. Now, who’s been inflating THAT bubble?

    As someone said, if the economy shows any signs of life, all the money that has been sitting on the sidelines will come out of hiding. I mean, the lefties have been excoriating “corporations” for sitting on all that cash, right? So what happens when they STOP sitting on it?

    Can you say “Zimbabwe?”

  97. philichi says:

    Why would a corporation want to invest their own money? Can you say “Obama”? They are scared to death of him.

  98. I’m thinking that the folks who divested from their paper/virtual portfolio into gold – at hugely inflated prices – are likely to lose if they don’t sell their gold quickly once the economy recovers and the gold bubble pops.

  99. Just when I think that philichi can’t demonstrate his complete ignorance of reality he posts this gem:

    Hitler was a liberal.

    Wow! Even aislander’s Goldberg inspired inversions aren’t that delusional.

  100. philichi says:

    Beerboy, would you say that Hitler was a conservative? Did he propose tax cuts? Did he propose smaller government? No Hitler was just another big government liberal.

    The German government asked all Jews to send in a form documenting their assets. It is no mystery that the ones with the most assets seemed to get their’s confiscated first. They were expected to “pay their fair share” Sound familiar? What is conservative about that? Hitler was a liberal. Embrace him and love your heritage.

  101. Appreciate your candor and wisdom about the housing mess TMell though I don’t expect those who abide deep in the far left wheel rut of life to respect your observation. They can’t now; too invested in believing what they’ve heard from less honest sources for too long.

  102. aislander says:

    phillichi: Thank you for helping me clarify something in my own mind. I know Hitler was no conservative–he was, in fact, a revolutionary. I know he was a putative lefty who excoriated capitalism. And I know putting him into the same camp as American limited-government conservatism is hideously unfair.

    Your labeling of Hitler as a “liberal” (in the mold of American liberals) isn’t quite accurate but it does allow me to illuminate the commonalities between that monster and today’s liberals.

    If I may be allowed a metaphor, government is like a gun: powerful and potentially deadly. The Founding Fathers took pains to limit the number of directions the gun could be aimed and to install safety measures (what we call check and balances) to further ensure they were limiting the potential harm.

    The commonality between today’s liberals and the Nazis is not that liberals are genocidal killers, but they both greatly expanded the limits on where the gun of government could be aimed AND removed many of the safety measures.

    So, once we have this gun that can be aimed anywhere, we are at the mercy of whoever is holding the weapon. Right this minute, those holding that weapon don’t seem to pose an immediate threat to our lives (unless we are in utero or old, but that’s another discussion), merely to the continue existence of the America we have known.

    Can you tell me who will be holding that unfettered weapon, say, ten years from now, or twenty?

  103. aislander says:

    Should have read “…to the continued existence of the America we have known.”

  104. aislander says:

    To strain the metaphor: the “gun” may be loaded with benefits to one group or another, but it also may contain oppression and genocide.

    The group or the autocrat holding it get to decide what comes out of the barrel…

  105. “ehill: Fannie Mae accepted everyone.”

    LOL – just one problem with that. Fannie Mae doesn’t originate loans. Thanks for a good laugh!

    “The libs had good intentions. They wanted more home ownership.”

    ROFL – and the hits just keep on comin’! So now George W Bush was a liberal: http://www.vdare.com/posts/2002-bushs-speech-to-the-white-house-conference-on-increasing-minority-homeownership That was really funny!

    “Well they got it! Now all of the people that they wanted to help are living in the apartment houses that they left.”

    ROFLMAO – oh man, you’re on a roll! Foreclosures don’t just happen to low income folks. For just one example, 20% of the foreclosures victims in Florida have incomes of over $100,000.

    You’re comedy gold!

  106. “Hitler was a liberal. Embrace him and love your heritage.”

    And Timothy McVeigh was a conservative. Embrace his methods as your desired tactics.

  107. aislander says:

    A radical conservative…hmmm…isn’t that an oxymoron?

  108. philichi says:

    ehill: you always bring up Timothy McVeigh. I am not aware of any of his political philosophies. Was he for limited government? Why do you call him a conservative. I can tell you that Hitler was a liberal. I can tell you why. I can tell you that Mao, Castro, Lenin were libs, I can tell you why. They wanted big powerful governments that can take your stuff away and give it to another. Embrace all of your past or denounce your silly beliefs. Forgive me, when I was in college, we didn’t spend a lot of time studying Timothy McVeigh. We studied Hitler and the rest of the left though.

    By the way why does it matter what income someone makes that gets foreclosed on. Don’t they just have to simply not make the payments that they agreed to? When I stated that 64% owned homes in America, I didn’t specify income level. Why would that matter. 64% have been owners, and the rest have been renters for many decades. We are simply back to normal. Why is that such a big deal?

  109. philichi says:

    aislander: The left has one thing in common. They want to redistribute your wealth. When we speak about Mao, Obama, FDR, etc, we need to realize that the goal is the same. The only difference is how far each will go. Some stop at simply raising taxes, others confiscate, finally, the worst kill. It is all just a matter of degree. Sometimes they start nice but get ugly. Our forefathers knew this. This is why they gave us three branches of governments.

    By the way, the one thing that these leftist governments have in common. None have really ever worked. Europe is now coming unhinged, North Koreans are eating their dead. Btw, If any of the lefties know of one liberal government that is working please tell.

  110. philichi – Hitler wasn’t a conservative. His fascist/corporatist approach is, however an extreme Right stance. In spite of Goldberg’s revenge delusions – the fact that the Right has been supportive of various fascist regimes supports the conclusion that Fascism comes from the Right (not conservatives – as aislander has termed “classical liberalism”).

  111. for example: When Peru’s Fujimori ran away to Japan in order to avoid arrest/conviction, he was celebrated/supported by the Right in Japan.

  112. aislander says:

    beerBoy: All that is true only if one accepts the tortured model of the relationship of ideologies that you and other leftists eager to distance themselves from fascism and Nazism, embrace.

    If you imagine a model that places large authoritarian governments next to each other where they belong, your construct falls apart.

  113. “I can tell you that Hitler was a liberal. I can tell you why. I can tell you that Mao, Castro, Lenin were libs, I can tell you why.”

    I can tell you that McVeigh was a wrong-winger, and I can tell you why. Embrace him. Embrace his irrational hatred for government. Embrace his tactics. They’re yours.

  114. aislander says:

    By the way, bB, the right in Japan is not the right in America. No tradition of limited government and the primacy of the individual over there

  115. aislander says:

    phillichi: McVeigh was a whack-job with no coherent ideology and he also had contempt for Christianity.

    As you know, conservatives don’t “hate government,” rather we prefer limited government that is able to maintain a civil society in which to conduct our business and private affairs. We oppose having government doing things it shouldn’t.

    McVeigh is no more a creature of American conservatism than ALF, ELF, the Black Panthers, Bill Ayers and other violent terrorists are creatures of the American left. Oh, wait: I guess I’ll have to come up with different examples…since they all are…

  116. took14theteam says:

    Never heard of a wrong-winger. Must mean someone on the left.

    Like clockwork the moniker changes……

  117. philichi says:

    beerboy, you would have failed our political science courses. I am very sorry. Let me review the terms of political thought. The left is for a more intrusive government. The right is for less government. Now you can have lots of types of the left. You can have Commies, socialists, National socialists, (nazi) fascists, modern day garden variety democrats they are all lefties. Some are further left than others.

    A conservative thinks that all these forms are stupid. He really just wants to be left alone. He generally runs for office because he gets pissed. He usually serves his term and gets back to his work. Libs, usually have no other purpose. They generally don’t have jobs unless it is for the government. They generally like jobs that allow them to have a lot of time off. This way they can bother people in their spare time. (the generally like to get paid to do nothing)

  118. aislander says:

    The thing about ALL those lefty governments is that they are all merely annoying until the machinery that has been created falls into the wrong hands. And it always does, sooner or later.

  119. So…according to your “logic” you must believe the CIA is a Leftist organization as they have a longstanding track record of supporting coups by fascist regimes throughout the globe.

  120. took14theteam says:

    Wow, that is some _hill logic there.

    I am starting to change my opinion of you bB.

  121. aislander says:

    If you are talking about unsavory regimes that allied with us instead of Soviet communism, beerBoy, what can I say? It’s an imperfect world…

  122. “The left is for a more intrusive government. The right is for less government. Now you can have lots of types of the left. You can have Commies, socialists, National socialists, (nazi) fascists, modern day garden variety democrats they are all lefties. Some are further left than others. A conservative thinks that all these forms are stupid.”

    And a stupid conservative thinks they’re all the same.

  123. “Let me review the terms of political thought. The left is for a more intrusive government. The right is for less government.”

    So the anarchists who trashed downtown Seattle were examples of right-wing ideology. Thanks for the admission.

  124. philichi says:

    ehill the anarchists consider themselves the same as the 99% . They are generally leftists that don’t want to work. They see their best way to economic stability is to take from the corporations etc. They are lefties too.

    Conservatives are so busy working and raising their families. They generally don’t have time to run around and blow things up. However, thanks for adding to the conversation.

    By the way, this does not mean that all lefties are bad. The conversation here is simply on degree. Remember, taking from some to give to others generally always falls under its own weight. Europe is now an example of this. So is social security and medicare in our country. The only issue now is what leaders do about it. Do they shut the programs down and reset them to sustainable programs or do they begin to get ugly. Remember, looking at history, all of the programs fall apart, it is simply a question of how much pain happens along the way.

  125. took – if philichi is starting to make sense to you then you are further down the road than I thought…..

  126. aislander says:

    ehill finally stumbled on truth: anarchists WOULD reside on the far right, IF they were true anarchists rather than the faux variety that shows up to demonstrate against “globalism,” etc.

    Those so-called anarchists are simply another variety of statist and want to use the state to punish “corporations,” “the rich,” and other perceived villains…

  127. aislander says:

    Damn. I wrote “metaphor” when I meant “simile.” My Honors English teacher would have my head…

  128. aislander – according to Marx, the final stage of communism (small “c”) would be the stateless society without government – anarchy by anyone’s definition.

    Anarchy is not from either side of partisan government.

  129. SwordofPerseus says:

    TMell-You go on for some time and not one mention of the real cause of the sub prime mortgage melt down. Sounds like you missed the gravy train on the profits generated by the sub-prime mortgage “industry”. Unregulated financial institutions which add nothing of value to the US economy, crashed the mortgage “industry”. Credit default swaps worth trillions of dollars, the banksters at Wall St. (CITI,JP Morgan, etc…) knew that the loans were toxic, so they bundled them into a “commodity” and sold them all over the world as investment tools. When the music stopped there were several chairs short, millions of homeowners bilked out of life savings, US taxpayers footing the bill at the treasury to pay back all the money printed at interest by the FED to practically give free money to the big four banks. And AIG and the Investment bankers got bailed out by the US Taxpayers. They knew that the CDS’s were junk and they knew the FED and Treasury would bail them out. So it was a premeditated scheme which they could not lose. And so it goes and no one is prosecuted in the US and Wall St. continues without over-site or proper regulation.

    This depression is not over yet, not by a long shot. As long as the banksters and FED is allowed to run roughshod over the American people life will be harder for the shrinking middle class.

  130. SwordofPerseus says:

    [b]Fascism[/b]- Extreme right-wing ideology where the existing social order is protected by the forcible suppression of the working class.

    [b]Populism[/b]- Collective noun for the ideologies which demand the redistribution of political power and economic leadership to the ‘common people’.

  131. LOL, having a bit of trouble with html code, Swop?

    Probably as much trouble as your made-up definitions.

    Next time just post a link.

  132. aislander says:

    So…beerBoy: I’m supposed to take my political definitions from Marx?

    Thank you, no…

  133. philichi says:

    Swordo: You went to a lot of trouble writing your long analysis about the crash. Please start over, start at the borrower and lender. If they lender would have paid his payments, everything else would have worked. That is why all of the defaults.

    Who screwed who? If a borrower borrows $100k and doesn’t make the payments. Who is the victim?

  134. Philchi – first let’s ask why the borrower failed to make the payments?

  135. “anarchists WOULD reside on the far right, IF they were true anarchists rather than the faux variety that shows up to demonstrate against “globalism,” etc.”

    Oh, I see. Now you claim that they aren’t real anarchists. Nice try at moving the goalposts. Think anyone noticed? ROFL

  136. “I’m supposed to take my political definitions from Marx?”

    As opposed to making up your own?

  137. aislander says:

    The role of “k****r” is today being played by ehill…

  138. “The role of “k****r” is today being played by ehill…

    When you know you don’t have the intellectual horsepower to refute the message, attack the messenger. Thanks for living down to expectations.

  139. end italics

  140. aislander says:

    The message could be refuted by the power of a consumptive hamster on a rusty wheel…

  141. aislander says:

    …if there were an actual message.

    Italics ended.

  142. “The message could be refuted by the power of a consumptive hamster on a rusty wheel…”

    And yet, you failed to do so. What a surprise.

  143. aislander says:

    Again: There was a message???

    Who knew…

  144. “There was a message???”

    Sorry it was over your head. Sorry, but not surprised.

    “Who knew… “

    Not you, that’s for sure.

  145. took14theteam says:

    Yes Mr get the last word in DB…..

  146. “Yes Mr get the last word in DB…..”, said the DB, trying to get in the last word.

    It’s more comedy gold!

*
We welcome comments. Please keep them civil, short and to the point. ALL CAPS, spam, obscene, profane, abusive and off topic comments will be deleted. Repeat offenders will be blocked. Thanks for taking part and abiding by these simple rules.

JavaScript is required to post comments.

Follow the comments on this post with RSS 2.0