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UNIONS: Koch connection, big money and union-busting

Letter by Bambi Lin Litchman, Tacoma on June 8, 2012 at 1:43 pm with 300 Comments »
June 8, 2012 1:43 pm

Re: “Public unions meet their ultimate employers: Voters” (editorial, 6-7).

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker was caught several times on tape regarding his intent to break the state’s public employee unions. One conversation revealed his cozy collusion with the billionaire Republican Koch brothers to break the unions. Another conversation involved his secretive attempt to pit private and public unions against each other to destroy them both – divide and conquer.

Walker deliberately concealed his intent to break the unions when he ran for office.

Why do the Kochs and Walker want to break all the unions? Because breaking the unions would increase profits without constraints of worker concerns like decent working conditions, fair wages and benefits.

Furthermore, politically the unions have supported working-class people and hence have been supporters of traditionally Democratic Party values.

Breaking the unions is a calculated plan to ensure that Democratic fund-raising and mobilization are diminished, and especially so a Republican candidate (in this case, Mitt Romney) can unseat President Obama, whom the Kochs despise.

Walker and supporters (many from out of state) spent $30 million more than his challenger. That money  bought a flood of advertising with heavy spin.

Seven months ago in Ohio, 2.2 million voters firmly rejected an anti-union agenda akin to Walker’s with a statewide referendum instead of a recall. Tuesday’s polls of Wisconsin voters indicated they retained Walker because they thought recalls should only occur for “cases of criminal misconduct.”

The difference in process between Ohio and Wisconsin may have held the difference, but isn’t $30 million the elephant in the room – literally?

Leave a comment Comments → 300
  1. billybushey says:

    Amen brother. As organized labor we are going to have to knuckle down and fight this one out. Too many people have drunk the Kool-aid and bought in to Tea Party, Koch Brothers, Chamber of Commerce, Rick Berman and FOX News. They forget that unions fought and died for 8 hour days, 40 hour work weeks, overtime, social security and safety at work. Look at how many workers were killed on the job in 2009, more than died in the Iraq war and 98% in non-union shops. Teamsters and the Mine Workers took it to the bats whne they had to, might be soon that has to happen again.

  2. Fibonacci says:

    You man to tell me you don’t trust business to do the right thing for workers out of the goodness of their heart? Of course they will, they care more about fairness and justice than they do profits—oh wait, they don’t.

  3. What….no personal insults leveled at Bambi yet?

    The Cons are a little slow on the uptake.

  4. philichi says:

    Bambi, you are right. However, the best part about it is that about 55% of people in Wisconsin agree with Scott Walker. They want better schools, better government,and their pot holes repaired. Get used to it. Even the private sector unions voted for him. We are all sick and tired over over paying for underperformance. Have you seen the pot holes in Tacoma lately

  5. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    This war is about the public sector unions. Even obama said today the private sector is doing fine. And that is because it’s mostly non-union.

    Public sector unions are the cancer here and they have reached their high water mark. Let the cleanup begin as the red ink inside states recedes.

    The fiscal cancer devouring state budgets has a cure, and Walker found it. The costly defeat for the entrenched union interests that tried to oust Governor Walker in retribution for challenging their power was marked by obama’s refusal to lend his weight to the campaign for fear of being stained by defeat. We’ll see how well this strategy of opportunistic detachment serves in the fall as obama reaches out to unions for support and big $$$$ donations.

    Best of all, the myth that union bosses represent their members’ interests has been exposed as a lie. Now that union dues are voluntary, tens of thousands of union members have stopped paying them. Membership in the Wisconsin chapter of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees union (AFSCME) has dropped by half. Membership in the state’s American Federation of Teachers (AFT) is down by over a third. Given unions’ influential role in most elections, the national implications of this trend are staggering. The forced collection of dues here in WA State must end for the same to happen here.

    The power of private sector unions was long ago broken by many heavily unionized companies going bankrupt. While this was painful for both workers and shareholders, the economy motored on as nimbler non-union competitors picked up the slack. This approach is problematic for the public sector because bankrupt state and local governments are being starved into privatizing union dominated services.

    If we all team up to starve the government beast the privatization of these services will happen sooner than later.

  6. With 40% of union members supporting Walker and 75% of Wisconsin State workers opting out of their union, I guess they were all brainwashed, huh…or perhaps they felt betrayed…or Used by crooked union bosses or just felt the spending would never stop….Great you gave use 8 hour day etc…but when do the State Union workers say enough? Uh never..That’s why they get paid much more than anyone else…Retiring at 55 with 90% of their pay… You hire a new person, pay the retired one a 90% and now you may as well have two on the payroll…Get over yourselves…Goodness it gets tiring hearing your whining…

  7. philichi says:

    If money was an issue, perhaps President Obama should have helped raise money for the Dems in Wisconsin. He raised $60 million last month. Is doesn’t seem very compassionate.

    Btw, perhaps we should all send thank you notes to the Koch brothers. I wish that they could help us get rid of the mess that we have in Washington.

  8. SwordofPerseus says:

    Better schools, better roads, with no taxes. Yes I’m sure that can work, as soon a pigs fly.

    Government is not supposed to be profitable, it is to provide protection and services. I agree there is waste, fraud and abuse at all levels of government. That means we need to be vigilant as citizen voters and replace those who abuse their positions in political office. Trowing off all government and shrinking it to the point of death is not what Americans want, in spite of what some may post here. Unions are not the problem here, it is corporate influence at the highest levels of government, drowning out the voice of citizens with the flood of corporate money. Get a clue people…

  9. Did Walker find two percent more votes somewhere? His margin was 53% and now philichi is saying 55%.

    As to Obama visiting Wisconsin – the Republicans are just angry that they couldn’t pull out the old “what is Obama doing in Wisconsin instead of working”

    I guess they think we are as ignorant as they are.

    JimK – tell us how many union members would opt out of they were to lose all their benefits and have to take a lower salary. Walker and Wisconsin violated terms of a contractural agreement. Republicans have no ethics.

  10. taxedenough – when are you going to tell us where you work so that state employees will quit spending their money with your employer and tainting your salary.

    We know you already have one union wage in your household.

  11. aislander says:

    Bambi Lin Litchman writes “…breaking the unions would increase profits without constraints…”

    We ARE discussing public-employee unions, are we not? Government isn’t supposed to make a profit, so Bambi must be talking about the tax-paying public’s not “making a profit”: that is, not keeping our hard-earned money and continuing to support government workers in an extravagant lifestyle of cheap healthcare and cushy retirements…

    Unions and bosses are natural antagonists, so, since the public is the boss, that means public-employee unions are the enemy of the public…

  12. SwordofPerseus says:

    aislander says “Unions and bosses are natural antagonists, so, since the public is the boss, that means public-employee unions are the enemy of the public…”

    Slander-do you realize by association you just labeled all law enforcement officers the enemy of the public, nice shot man, I bet you’ll have a permanent limp after that one.

  13. “We are all sick and tired over over paying for underperformance.”

    Yeah…and many were sick and tired of the lies that perpetrated the crash of the stock market in September of 2008. That can be proven. “Underperformance” is nothing by hyperbole.

  14. Sword – it would be justice of Slander called the police for help and they said “we want to antagonize you, so do it yourself”

  15. aislander says:

    Not a all, HackerofJellyfish. Union activity and law enforcement work are two different things, and, since I expect our police to be able to walk AND chew gum, one role does not preclude the other.

  16. Oh….we see…..law enforcers by day and thugs by night. I’m certain that makes them feel much better. When the uniform is on and they are risking their lives for you, they’re OK, but when they are taking care of their families…..thugs…unionistas…..

    Yeah…we get it.

  17. Do I detect a little “sour grapes”? Hey, the election was held the union thugs lost, end of story. Now maybe the taxpayers will have some say in how the government unions operate. Why should someone working as a house painter, plumber, carpenter, mechanic or truck driver have to pay life-long benefits to someone who retires at age 50 and gets 70-80% of their pay. Stop your whining, games over.

  18. aislander says:

    So…you guys are maintaining that unions and bosses are NOT adversaries? Good luck trying to sell THAT!

  19. “Unions and bosses are natural antagonists”

    This is the reward you get for conceding money, benefits and working conditions.

    The union workers thank you.

    I think the antagonists are the selfish conservatives that want services but don’t want to pay for them

  20. We need a Scott Walker in Washington State. But I doubt that the results would be the same as Wisconsin, too many libs live here, They don’t mind paying excessive amounts of money for poor roads, poor schools, poor transportation, lousy government.

  21. aislander says:

    Some things just ARE, Larr. See above…

  22. averageJoseph says:

    LOL, I heard a comparison of the Koch Bros vs. Soros the other day. You’re being silly Bambi…

  23. aislander says:

    Besides, Dem icons FDR and JFK made the same argument re public-employee unions versus the public that I just made.

    I don’t claim originality here, merely that we are right. I think that’s the first time I’ve claimed FDR as part of my cohort!

  24. bobcat1a says:

    /

  25. bobcat1a says:

    Why did Walker have to spend 7 times as much money as his opponent to win? Why did 75% of that money have to come from out of state donors in chunks of a half million? Is our Republic for sale to the highest bidder? Looking more and more like it.

  26. aislander says:

    The 7:1 ratio is overstated, but never mind that. Obama outspent McCain 3:1, so is HIS victory somehow illegitimate? BTW, what happened to the promise to use only public campaign financing in ’08. Oh, that’s right it was an Obama promise and didn’t count…

    I sent money to the Walker campaign in a “chunk” of $50. So what?

  27. truthbusterguy says:

    Government unions (they are not public sector unions) are a relationship between socialist types and the politicians they help elect. The loser here is the taxpayer. This corrupt relationship has lead to the edge of bankruptcy for cities and states. All you have to do is just look at the amount of money spent on bloated wages benefits. There is no wonder pot holes are not repaired.

    The influence buying using my tax dollars from forced dues must end. They did it in Wisconsin we can do it here if we can elect honest people that will help the tax payer not the unions.

    If we can’t rid ourselves of the government unions we need to rid ourselves of government jobs. I-1183 helped with the first 1100 state employees. (hard to call them workers)

    If we all team up and starve the state of funds they will be forced to lay off these non producers. Learn how to starve the beast and just do it. Force the state to privatize.

    http://www.ehow.com/how_2080710_avoid-paying-sales-tax.html

  28. ‘better schools’ not under walker and the republicons.

    the private sector is doing well sending jobs to china, and on minium wage no-benift jobs in this country. and the laugh is they will soon reduce our conserment spending to that of anyother third world country.

    jimk – ever consider writing fiction and fantisy? Or do you perfer writing conserative talking points.

    Islandeter – it was closer to 8:1.

  29. When Taxedenough is serious enough in his quest against union labor to disclose his employer so that union workers don’t have to spend money and taint his salary, I’ll take his rants seriously.

    Meanwhile – I quote Macbeth – “it is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  30. We need frosty in Wisconsin. I just met a fantastic reed player who left Wisconsin to be here. We’ll call it a fair trade.

    Aren’t Wisconsinites known as “cheese heads”?

  31. averageJoseph says:

    Yea… the “public financing” pledge… there’s the 800lb donkey….

  32. aislander says:

    xring: Jobs are going overseas primarily because of government policies. Cut taxes and regulations and declare a tax holiday on repatriated money with further tax incentives for jobs brought to this country, and get out of the way.

    That’s the actual plan: “Get out of the way!”

  33. charliebucket says:

    it seems clear to me that either one ‘subscribes’ to Fox news and simply rehashes anti govt garbage day in and day out, or they don’t. for those who do, do you realize how transparent it all is? point after point is cookie cutter garbage..it might as well be charlie brown’s teAcher posting. union thugs, wonk wonk wonk: socialist, wonk wonk, wonk: marxist, wonk wonk, wonk: ad nauseum………

  34. Ethics Larry, I’m surprised you even know how to spell the word, let alone know what it means. Liberals are by far the most unethical, and jealous bunch of mindless apes, because other have more than you, you see them as thieves. Ripping off everyone else,crushing the poor, taking food out of babies mouths. Okay, Larry you have more than I do, I’m a student putting myself through school, I want your money, Larry I want your money…..No, Larry you’re pathetic and a thief, put your money where my hand is….Oh I’m sorry that’s you guys, never mind…I will make my own way…Grow up!

  35. aislander says:

    charliebucket: Just because certain truths are repeated does not make them untrue. Government doesn’t produce: it consumes and transfers.

    Societies need government, true enough, but they need it because they have economies that need a stable environment in which to do business.

    Government could not exist without the economy, but some sort of economy could exist without government.

    Somalia doesn’t have a functional government but it does have a rudimentary economy nevertheless. Its economy would be better with a better government and better cultural mores, of course, but people can sometimes get what they need.

    When it comes to government and economies, there is no doubt which is cart and which is horse…

  36. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Did I just see an argument-conceeding GLC#2? Niiiice, charlie.

    Next up; a corollary for the Koch Bros.

    Geez, can’t you libs come up with some new clichés?

  37. computer1015 says:

    @SwordofPerseus
    “Government is not supposed to be profitable, it is to provide protection and services. I agree there is waste, fraud and abuse at all levels of government.”

    Exactamento. And if anyone doesn’t know that there is waste, fraud, abuse and corruption in the PRIVATE sector, it’s time to take the tea bags off your eyes.

  38. charliebucket says:

    Aislander, vox et al:

    I repeat…..it is crystal-clear-see through even to a blind man: who watches Fox and who doesn’t. Fox viewers = garbage in, garbage out.

    Please do not tell me I am some MSNBC brainwashed liberal, I don’t watch MSNBC or even NBC. I do not read the NY Times so don’t try that one either. I am a regular old average middle class American (Christian I might add) and FOX is nothing but garbage and no matter what time of day or night one turns it on they are spouting the same hype and sensationalized nonsensical anti govt, anti Obama, anti union, anti liberal crap as you are on here, guys. To regular folks like me, it is clear you have nothing, no argument, no rational debate, no nothing…. but whatever liberal hating propaganda you hear on FOX. It is actually quite tragic.

    I am the liberal that Fox lies about. I am your kid’s soccer or baseball coach, your kid’s Sunday school teacher, your kid’s volunteer chaperone on a school field trip, the guy you tell all your neighbors is such an honest and fair business man, your neighbor who loaned you his lawn mower when yours broke down. You just hate the idea of liberals and buy into the garbage Fox is selling. Don’t bother with a rebuttal or attack, it has no quarter with me. It is enough for me to state what is the truth against the pack of lies you tell day in and day out on here and all over the internet (your types are a dime a dozen). Consider it my public service to my community.

  39. aislander says:

    charliebucket: If you can let go of your anger, please tell me where I have lied about any matter of fact. I have made mistakes, I admit (who hasn’t?), but it doesn’t do any good in the long run to choose to lie about these things. I have posted several comments in this thread and would be grateful if you could point out any errors–and I use the word “errors” because nowhere have I posted a purposeful lie.

    Now, if you are talking about matters of opinion rather than fact, there can be no lies because opinions are not subject to fact-checking, and you are free to disagree with my opinions as I am free to disagree with yours…

  40. aislander says:

    computer1015: You are quite correct that there is waste, fraud, and corruption in the private sector as well as in government, but the effects of those things are different in business and in government.

    I am not forced to do business with most private-sector entities. I cannot avoid interacting with government.

    A poorly-run business cannot force me to pay for its mistakes and malfeasance. Government does that all the time.

    A business that is fraught with waste, fraud, and corruption will cease to exist. Government will just raise my taxes…

    Private business isn’t perfect, but Exxon-Mobil, for example, has done far more for me personally than the government ever has. It delivers a product I need at acceptable prices and its stock has added to the worth of my portfolio over the years. Government has done nothing but siphon off my property…

  41. aislander says:

    That is not to say that government doesn’t provide services that I need, but beyond the basics, I have found government to be a net drag on my life…

  42. concernedtacoma7 says:

    CB must be new. I have seen on facts here from the right leaning posters, nothing but rhetoric and games from the left.

    Blindly voting with emotion. That is who your are CB. Noble, but wrong.

  43. charliebucket says:

    I never said you lied aislander. I said I am the liberal FOX lies about. you and many others here, and across the country, and to the highest offices of our govt that republicans hold and want to hold (Romney) then continue to spread lies and propaganda (about liberals) by repeating the stuff. when I watch Fox I roll my eyes at the lies and hype and absurd conspiracy theories and twisting everything to be conservative equals good, liberal equals bad, Obama evil, republicans good. when I come on here (or other forums etc) I roll my eyes at the repetition of the same tired, flaming talking points as I hear on FOX. I got a robo call from the Romney camp today screaming at me to donate so we could get rid of liberals in our govt, imploring me to donate to stop American from going down the drain because of failed liberalism, calling Obama a liar about Obamacare etc etc. I felt like I was watching FOX. It was absurd, beyond comprehension.

    I swear to GOD if Fox did not exist this country would not be so divided. The hatred and fear of liberals they promote is absurd…..just read these threads. It is clear who watches and who doesn’t. That was my point.

  44. charliebucket says:

    concerned, thank you for being the best example of my point a guy could ask for. goodnight.

  45. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Goodnight to you, Sir!

  46. averageJoseph says:

    We get it charlie, you don’t like Fox. Sure did take you alot of words to make that point. Something tells me you don’t watch Fox. One watch one of several leftist networks.

    I do get a kick out of the Fox paranoid libs tho.

  47. Big money wants more money, the only place left to get it is the Govt and the workers.
    We have been transferring the poor’s money and the middle class’s money to the top for the last 30 years, the only good jobs left in the country are the union jobs.
    Guess who is the main target now?
    Unions.

    Keep voting for the right wing and we will be a 3rd world country within a decade.

  48. “Now that union dues are voluntary, tens of thousands of union members have stopped paying them.”

    I’ve heard this lie several times now and I really didn’t think anyone was stupid enough to believe it…..

  49. The cons lap up the lies from their media, union dues are voluntary now…blah blah blah, they are not voluntary, they have been all but outlawed! They gutted the unions, which was the goal and took the right of collective bargaining away, so a union has no power at all, but to the idiots on the right, that makes them ‘voluntary’.
    Amazing how stupid and gullible some people are.

  50. “Jobs are going overseas primarily because of government policies. Cut taxes and regulations and declare a tax holiday on repatriated money with further tax incentives for jobs brought to this country, and get out of the way.”

    Sorry a*******r, no one is that stupid.
    This ‘plan’ has been in action for 30 years….it’s the reason we are where we are now!
    Why are you racing to the bottom?

  51. “Not a all, HackerofJellyfish.”

    Whats with the name calling a******r?
    Are you a hypocrite?

  52. “Liberals are by far the most unethical, and jealous bunch of mindless apes, because other have more than you, you see them as thieves. Ripping off everyone else,crushing the poor, taking food out of babies mouths”

    Hey right wing juveniles, how may GLC’s are in that??

  53. tree_guy says:

    Bambi, the voters of Wisconsin have spoken…twice. They want a conservative style governor and they want reforms which will reduce the stranglehold that unions have exercised in the operation of their state government.

    Your letter to the editor stands as a sort of embarrassing epitaph of the union movement. Maybe if the movement hadn’t been so greedy over the years they wouldn’t be facing today’s voter backlash.

  54. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Wow, now that is a cut-paste-archive-worthy GLC#2.

    It’s a sad enough statement that rather than owning up to the empirical evidence of a failed presidency caused by a political philosophy of insolvency, liberals blame their inability to make permanent inroads among the self-identified majority conservatives in this country… on a news network. But the implication that only they are capable of original thought, all the while parroting every left-wing talking point spoon fed to them by the overwhelmingly left-leaning fourth estate is truly… hiLarryous.

  55. Bandito says:

    Why are Republicans attacking public sector unions? Because they haven’t figured out a way to outsource those jobs.

    Republicans are purposely sabotaging this country’s economic recovery in order to get President Obama out of office.

    “since the original stimulus bill passed in February of 2009, Republicans have made practically no effort to draft comprehensive job creation legislation. Instead, they continue to pursue austerity policies, which reams of historical data suggest harms economic recovery and does little to create jobs. In fact, since taking control of the House of Representatives in 2011, Republicans have proposed hardly a single major jobs bill that didn’t revolve, in some way, around their one-stop solution for all the nation’s economic problems: more tax cuts.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/09/did-republicans-deliberately-crash-us-economy

    Republicans are out of control and will only make things worse for the average American if they regain control of the White House.

  56. islandernwly says:

    Thanks charliebucket for a accurate assessment of Fox.

  57. truthbusterguy says:

    Question for the flaming liberals that post here. Who is the CEO of the largest right to work/open shop company in the world?……..obama

    You all defend collective bargaining and collection of dues by government but the federal government outlawed both practices in 1978 when Jimmy Carter signed the Civil Service Reform act.

    How can you defend collective bargaining for state workers when it was outlawed for the federal workers 34 years ago? Also the same retirement plan you are all defending ended for federal workers in 1985. Federal workers are very happy and treated well and 90% don’t pay useless union dues to union thug bosses.

    Give state workes the same.

  58. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    … the overwhelmingly left-leaning fourth estate…

    And the UK Guardian = exhibit “A”.

    The paper identifies with centre-left liberalism and its readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion.

    WOW, hard-hitting factual stuff you posted there ‘dito – no political spin or loony conspiracy theories in that clap-trap at all.

    Geez.

    But I have to tip my hat to the UKG; at least they make no bones about their left of center perspective on politics and the news.

    And I love this:

    … since the original stimulus bill passed in February of 2009, Republicans have made practically no effort to draft comprehensive job creation legislation…

    Now… overlooking the fact that Republicans have had control of only one legislative house for what… little more than a third of the time “since the original stimulus passed”, and that we’re not sure why it would be their sole responsibility, how does the UKG reconcile this (from the very same paragraph:

    … Republicans have proposed hardly a single major jobs bill that didn’t revolve, in some way, around their one-stop solution for all the nation’s economic problems: more tax cuts.

    So… which is it? “Practically no effort to draft” legislation that this UKG blogger would like, or “hardly a single major jobs bill that” this UKG blogger would like.

  59. Bandito says:

    Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell:

    “The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”

  60. “The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”

    Party before country.

  61. Bandito says:

    Cutting taxes is not comprehensive job creation legislation.

  62. “If you can let go of your anger, please tell me where I have lied about any matter of fact.”

    How much bandwidth are we allowed??

  63. aislander says:

    No name-calling: just letting SoP know that I get the moniker.

    For the benefit of those who don’t have a klew, I’ll lay it out.

    Perseus, a mythical Greek hero, used his sword and his wits to slay the monster Medusa, a Gorgon (also mythical), a glimpse of whom would turn one to stone. Gorgons were supposed to have snakes in lieu of hair, so the adult stage of jellyfish is called a “medusa.” Okay so far?

    “Medusa” is derived from medousa, the feminine of medon (ruler), so the sword would be used to slay the ruler.

    SoP is an anti-establishment guy–get it?

  64. philichi says:

    Bandito, Kluwer, the greatest jobs program that this country needs is electing a capitalist president. The unemployment rate will drop within hours of the election. Businesses will no longer be scared to hire. Pipe lines will be built, regulations will drop, and energy prices will drop.

    The Obama Presidency has really been a good education for America. I think that we need a good solid dose of socialism every 20 years just to see the damage. sadly it will take 20 years to clean up his mess.

  65. “I have seen on facts here from the right leaning posters, nothing but rhetoric and games from the left.

    Blindly voting with emotion. That is who your are CB. Noble, but wrong.”

    Again ct7 proves the theory that she is 180 degrees out from reality.

  66. “The unemployment rate will drop within hours of the election. Businesses will no longer be scared to hire. Pipe lines will be built, regulations will drop, and energy prices will drop.”

    I’ve got some fine bridges I’ll sell you.

  67. Capitalist President?

    Is that what you call a guy who makes his living running businesses into the ground and bankrupting them to avoid responsibility on employee benefits?

    Oh yes….we need one of those. How about two?

  68. Someone need to review the Civil Service Reform Act:

    Under the “rank-in-the-person” provision of the act, agency heads can move career senior executives into any position for which they are qualified. One provision of the act was the abolishment of the United States Civil Service Commission and the creation of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM), the Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA) and the U.S. Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). OPM primarily provides management guidance to the various agencies of the executive branch and issues regulations that control federal human resources. FLRA oversees the rights of federal employees to form collective bargaining units (unions) and to engage in collective bargaining with agencies. MSPB conducts studies of the federal civil service and mainly hears the appeals of federal employees who are disciplined or otherwise separated from their positions. This act was an effort to replace incompetent officials.

  69. “JimK says:
    June 8, 2012 at 9:12 pm Ethics Larry, I’m surprised you even know how to spell the word, let alone know what it means.”

    I know it doesn’t mean ignoring contracts and bankrupting businesses for profit.

    Tell us what you know about ethics, Jim. Try to avoid hyperbole.

  70. Oh no. You mean there are people with money outside of Hollywood too. You can cry me a river about money spent to support conservative candidates.

    Look past it to the big picture…the people at the voting booths in Wisconconsin reflect the weariness of the nation.

    and BTW what unions were and what unions are now? apples and oranges

  71. philichi says:

    Larry, I am proud to say that I am a Private Equity investor. I would enjoy explaining how they work. I can assure you that your silly vision of them wouldn’t make sense to those of use that actually use them. The Private equity managers that I have known are generally the smartest guys in their classes. They have to be. They need to look at a business, analyze its markets and competition and figure out if they can add value and fix it. Many well known names have been helped in this way. JR Crew, etc.

    One of my friends recently sold his company to a Private Equity firm. He didn’t do this to hurt his employees. He did this to have truly smart MBAs from Harvard, Yale, and Notre Dame come in and help his business and employees do even better. They are too.

    Private Equity managers are smart people. These are the people at the head of the class, these people are not like the mediocrity that you are getting used to in the Obama team. The nice thing about smart people like Romney, is that they hire other smart people. Obama gets nervous around smart people that is why he has his team and his lack of success.

  72. SwordofPerseus says:

    Attention mindless trolls; the Republicons have duped you into believing that their lame azz policies would change the course of American prosperity. Sadly you dummies do not realize that Obama has pretty much followed exactly the policies that the corporate tool Rawmoney has proposed. We are floundering in stagnation. The key to resolution is more government stimulus, that is the only entity capable of providing required money to stimulate the economy with jobs programs to jump start the economy, it is the only thing that has and ever will work. Get a klue, yes this means you!

  73. SwordofPerseus says:

    What sector of the economy enjoys wildly enriching salaries whilst producing nothing of value? Let’s see, oh yes the banking/finance “industries”. Those incompetent morons with MBA’s from Harvard and Yale who continue to virtually rape the American economy year after year with the complicit approval of their privately owned con-man shop the Federal Reserve Bank…All of these “too big to fail” boondoggles should be systematically dismantled and permanently banned from existence. Start with that little prick Jamie Dimon, send him to prison for life without the possibility of parole.

    Next revoke the FED charter and dissolve the Federal Reserve system. Return the task of minting US currency to the United States Treasury where it belongs.

    If we had the courage to do these simple steps the US would be immediately on the road to recovery, as a side effect the US would enjoy a level of trust abroad not seen in the world since before world war II.

  74. aislander says:

    “I know it doesn’t mean ignoring contracts and bankrupting businesses for [political gain]…”

    Yeah, that Obama’s a scamp, all right…

  75. aislander says:

    Er…you don’t “mint” currency…

  76. The “Duh” statement of the day.

    “Bloomberg BusinessWeek has called private equity a rebranding of leveraged buyout firms after the 1980s.”

    Birds of a feather….and all that….

    hey…slander…maybe you can point out where Obama violated contracts and bankrupted companies……wait…what am I saying? Of course you can’t.

    We KNOW that the “Private Equity Investor” running as a Republican did.

  77. Sozo thinks “Hollywood” spends as much on political campaigns as the Koch Brothers. Of course, sozo also believes in a fairy in the sky.

  78. “The Looted “Partnership”
    A bust-out is a scheme customarily employed by organized crime to deplete the assets of a legit­imate business, thus forcing it into bankruptcy.

    Sound familiar?

  79. philichi, your theory: “the greatest jobs program that this country needs is electing a capitalist president. The unemployment rate will drop within hours of the election.” has been proved so wrong on so many occasions, how can you say it with a straight face? Or, are you just saying that George Bush and Reagan were not “capitalists” and the new darling of the right, Clinton was?

    The only way we are going to be able to expand the economy and create new jobs is if the middle class begins to thrive again, and under Republicans that never happens.

  80. billybushey says:

    The AFSCME union members did not “opt out” of their union. They had no choice, their membership was taken from them. This is just another Teabagger BS talking point. I look forward to the level of services provided by non-union, Walmart wage employees with little to no training begin “providing”.

  81. “Look past it to the big picture…the people at the voting booths in Wisconconsin reflect the weariness of the nation.”

    No they didn’t, not by a long shot.

  82. BigSwingingRichard says:

    What we need in America is a pro-business, pro-economy, pro-employment president, not a pro-union, pro-taxes, pro-class warfare, pro-food stamp president.

  83. What we need in America is sensible conservatives. Unfortunately they don’t exist

  84. “The Obama Presidency has really been a good education for America. I think that we need a good solid dose of socialism every 20 years just to see the damage. sadly it will take 20 years to clean up his mess.”

    I wonder if you know how silly you look with the ‘socialism’ whine?
    I will remind you that President Obama has been in office just short of 3 years and our economy crashed BEFORE he took office. It crashed due largely because of conservative policy, legislation and lack of stewardship. The right wing has offered nothing in the way of real solutions to the problems we face because of their maleficence.
    What they do offer is more of the same and we all know that doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different result is the definition of insanity.
    Proof of your failed ideology is in full view across the Atlantic, austerity, or spending cuts as you call them, is crippling the economies of several countries as we speak, the UK, Greece, France and others.
    Now I ask you philly, why would we even think of doing it here?
    Why do you on the extreme right cling so tightly to your failed ideas?
    Are you so vane that you would rather tha entire nation fail then admit you are wrong?

  85. What we need is rational, intelligent conservatives that can think for themselves.
    Too bad they don’t exist and never have.

  86. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Jobs bill. You kids act on the assumption that all jobs are created by govt with taxpayer monies.

    The republican ‘jobs bill’ the repeal of Obamacare and Dodd-Frank. A halt in new regs while controlling the EPA. Exploit our energy resources. Watch the economy boom.

    Fix the DoEd and our education financing. You want a govt loan? You have to study a hard science. You want to study some dead culture, pay for it yourself.

    I just solved our short and intermediate economic problems. Long term, really invest in infrastructure that drives economic activity. Ports and freight rail. Cheap energy.

    All common sense. All blocked by dems.

    State and local govt need to fix their books. Kicking the unions to the curb is step one.

  87. The MBA from Harvard – George Bush – was at the helm when the economy tanked.

    It’s funny how Obama went to Harvard as an “affirmative action” student but the “Harvard MBAs” are brilliant in philichi’s mind.

    I guess a Harvard JD Magna cum Laude isn’t as good as a Harvard MBA, if the JD McL is a black guy.

    Remember folks, this is about his policies….

  88. FrankBurns, that was a fragmented, convoluted pile of excrement. But let’s start with what REALLY creates jobs – A MARKETPLACE.

    As long as there is no need in the market, no amount of tax giveaways will “created jobs”.

    I see you didn’t read the explanation from the billionaire Hanauer that I provided.

    Here’s more for you to ignore:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/06/01/nick-haneauer-why-rich-people-paying-more-taxes-is-good-for-the-economy/

  89. “Hanauer is no Mitt Romney venture capitalist. That’s for sure. His basic argument is that businesses don’t create jobs, consumers do. Or, more precisely, that the economy is an ecosystem in which businesses and their rich owners thrive only if there is a large middle class with enough money to buy their goods. And he sees today’s widening inequality and pressure on the middle class as a threat to prosperity. In his case, this isn’t so much about fairness, but about sustainability.”

    WOW!!! Whoddah thunk?????

  90. took14theteam says:

    Sozo thinks “Hollywood” spends as much on political campaigns as the Koch Brothers. Of course, sozo also believes in a fairy in the sky.

    ehill, c’mon, Message/Messenger. I know you can do it…..

  91. truthbusterguy says:

    LarryH

    If you will just stop drinking the liberal Kool-Aid long enough to study the facts you would hace some creditability at this site.

    Here is the truth on federal workers not being allowed to collectively bargain for pay and benefits. Scott walker on gave his state workers the same as what your boy obama gives for federal workers.

    Now you know why obamaboy did not go to Wisconsin. He would be painted as a hypocrite if he supported collective bargaining when he doesn’t allow it for his workers.

    read this:
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/mar/02/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-most-federal-emplo/

  92. The best thing to come out of the Wisconsin recall election is it has shown how completely unhinged the left in this country has become.

  93. concernedtacoma7 says:

    So taxing the rich more will help the middle class? We know that if taxed at double or triple it woul not dent the deficit.

    What was your point again? That if the rich give MORE money to the govt, the govt will do what with it, exactly? As this admin shows, the fed govt is not good at manipulating the economy.

    Open up the market. Let small business thrive. Stop any new regulation for 10 years. Give them predictability. Call and write Harry, tell him to get on board and fix the upcoming tax nightmare.

    Nice #ows message, though. Taxing the rich more does nothing. Already debunked.

  94. “your boy obama”

    And racism rears its ugly head again.

  95. “obamaboy”

    And again.

  96. charliebucket says:

    averagejoe, I do not watch, and have never watched any MSNBC or any network or cable news, at least in the last 10plus years. The last time I remember watching CNN, for example was during the gulf war. I am just not a TV watcher but nice try trying to imply I watch “lame-stream” media. (Fox talking point lie #107: all other news sources are lame stream liberal garbage and Fox tells the fair and balanced truth)

    Now back to it, I actually did a little experiment with FOX. At various times of day and night I turned FOX on to see what they were airing. I did this over the course of a few weeks bc people(conservatives) kept telling me that Fox had great news shows so I tuned in to check it out for myself. At every time slot I watched there was a political pundit(s) doing a one sided commentary on the evils of Obama or of democrats or of liberals. One program on faith looked fantastic though, right up until they touted the wonders of conservative church and said conservative churches preach the truth and liberal churches sit empty because they don’t preach the truth (big red propaganda flag right there!)

    I gave FOX a fair shake and they proved to be unfair and unbalanced and nothing but far right propaganda.

    Rational people realize that when a used car salesmen tells you other used car salesmen are selling you lemons, the salesman is pulling your chain. Rational people realize that when Sears tells you JCPenny is evil, they are lying to get your business. Fox viewers are being manipulated, lied to, spun, chewed up and then regurgitate the same tired anti liberal crapola on here and all over the country. That was my point. So all you anti union people (back to the thread), did you just decide to be anti union on your own or because you saw how evil unions are on FOX???? don’t answer, rhetorical. [PS. feel free to substitute Rush Limbaugh for FOX. SSDD for that garbage]

    PPS. if you say ‘liberal kool aid’, you might be an un-credible FOX watcher.

    Do you people actually know any liberals???

  97. History repeats itself for those who do no know it, the Depression and FDR’s New Deal.

  98. Truthbuster – you read that politifact about as well as the right wing listened to the President’s speech. They picked up a half dozen words out of several paragraphs. You’ve done the same.

    My post about the Civil Service Reform Act was absolutely correct and your politifact confirms it, but you can’t just pick Scott Walker’s opinion out of the entire post and that makes everything true.

    Selective reading and quoting, once again, a conservative trait.

  99. “Nice #ows message”

    There is FrankBurns’ response to a Wall Street Journal article about a billionaire.

    LMAO

    Ignorance IS bliss.

  100. “Spontaneity has its time and its place.” – Major Frank Burns

  101. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/08/context-private-sector-doing-fine/

    There is the context.

    What does the right wing take from it?

    “The private sector is doing fine”.

    This is the way that the conservatives digest information.

  102. took14theteam says:

    chabucket, for someone that doesn’t watch cable news, you sure have a good “grasp” of what you think Fox news is, even with your “experiment”.

    LarryH, kind of interesting that I mention ehill, who has been missing for a week or more, and “poof” he shows up calling someone a racist. That is your favorite tactic. Hmmm….

    And then LarryH continues with the wallpaper. After his other “moniker” logged out.

  103. took14theteam says:

    So if the “conservatives” digested Hollywood Obama’s comment wrong, why did he back pedal and call a press conference to correct his f’up?

    Cause he f’d up and is out of touch with America, other than with his inner party circle. And his solution was…to create more government jobs. (I think I need to stop wasting time hitting return and just use periods to define my sentence)

  104. aislander says:

    The Obama regime violated the contract rights of GM bondholders, and it is only ONE of the companies that the regime saw into bankruptcy with its spublic equity speculation…

  105. aislander says:

    Make that “…public-equity speculation…”

  106. truthbusterguy says:

    LarryH

    Lets settle this back and forth.

    Will you just admit that federal workers do not have collective bargaining rights when it comes to wages and benifits?

    Will you just admit that federal workers do not have union dues taken out of their paychecks unless they request that to happen?

    Will you admit that t federal worker system is an open shop and unlike the state they do not have to join the union?

    Will you tell me why state workers can’t have the same advantages as federal workers relating to opt out of forced union membership and deduction of dues from their paychecks?

  107. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Larry, your 1980s humor is weak. It is an obvious deflection since you cannot argue with facts or policy, just emotion.

    The billionaire has by definition over a billion dollars. No wonder they do not care what their future tax rate is at, they are loaded. What a juvenile argument.

  108. “LarryH, kind of interesting that I mention ehill, who has been missing for a week or more”

    How’s the tin-foil hat fitting?

  109. aislander says:

    Obama was (is?) a member of the New Party, an avowedly socialist organization.

    So is it okay to call The One a socialist, now?

  110. took14theteam says:

    Oh, ehill, you cherry picked again. Here is the rest since you forgot it. “, and “poof” he shows up calling someone a racist.”

    Nice piece of work. Glad I am not striving to be like you in my old age.

  111. beerBoy says:

    When I told the Finns that some Americans think Obama is a socialist they laughed really hard – they know what socialism is and they know what Obama stands for.

  112. Truthbuster starts with – “How can you defend collective bargaining for state workers when it was outlawed for the federal workers 34 years ago?”

    Then, when confronted, alters the issue to….

    “Will you just admit that federal workers do not have collective bargaining rights when it comes to wages and benifits?”

    This is classic right wing stuff, folks. Don’t miss a minute of it.

    When will the conservatives be intellectually honest about anything?

    Truthbuster, you’d get along fine with a certain blogstress in Olympia that likes to move the goalposts everytime someone calls her on her excrement.

  113. aislander says:

    MAN! Did you dodge THAT question!

  114. philichi says:

    kluwer, Greece and the rest of Europe is melting down because of years of over spending and over dependency. The austerity, is only the reaction to them not having more of other people’s money to spend. we will be there soon.

    The crash in American was cuased by Fannie Mae etc. Not by Bush. He raised warnings of them. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd said they were fine. Dodd and Frank are both gone now. We are stuck with their mess.

  115. slander…..As usual, I pointed out that the conservatives lie, until called on it. You know how that goes….

    “outlawed”

    became

    “do not have collective bargaining rights on wages and benefits”

    Did Obama really just say “the private sector is doing fine”? Of course he didn’t. What he did say (and the question asked) is as follows:

    Question: “What about the Republicans saying that you’re blaming the Europeans for the failure of your own policies?”

    “The truth of the matter is that, as I said we’ve created 4.3 million jobs over the last two — 27 months; over 800,000 just this year alone. The private sector is doing fine.

    “Where we’re seeing weaknesses in our economy have to do with state and local government, oftentimes cuts initiated by, you know, governors or mayors who are not getting the kind of help that they have in the past from the federal government and who don’t have the same kind of flexibility as the federal government in dealing with fewer revenues coming in.

    “And so, you know, if — if Republicans want to be helpful, if they really want to move forward and put people back to work, what they should be thinking about is how do we help state and local governments and how do we help the construction industry.

    “Because the recipes that they’re promoting are basically the kinds of policies that would add weakness to — to the economy, would result in further layoffs, would not provide relief in the housing market, and would result, I think most economists estimate, in lower growth and fewer jobs, not more.”

    100% different meaning when taken in context.

    It’s the same with Truthbuster manipulating the law to make his hyperbole sell.

    Unfortunately for Truthbuster, one of my first jobs was laying manure on a new golf course. I can smell it a mile away.

  116. I’m guessing philichi isn’t one of the brilliant Harvard MBAs that are part of his “private equity” business:

    – Updated March 31, 2011
    Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did not, by themselves, cause the subprime mortgage crisis. Legislative attempts to rapidly wind down Fannie and Freddie will not prevent another recession. Worse yet, it could further harm the housing market.

    http://www.useconomy.about.com

  117. aislander says:

    Whatever, Captain Rationalize…

  118. took14theteam says:

    You know LarryH, since your big head knows all, you need to branch out from the TNT blog site. I see a position for you on MSNBC, CNN, or maybe as a “balancer” to FOX news (GLC#2).

    I just wish I could know I was right SOOO much of the time. Must give you a tingle up your leg…

  119. Bandito says:

    I want a president who understands what it takes to raise a family on an income that just barely makes it. Richy Rich has no clue. The overly wealthy are doing just fine. What more could they need? Their trickle down non-sense is for fools.

  120. aislander says:

    Larry just hung a whole bunch of wallpaper in an attempt to show that the question was flawed rather than just answering the bloody question: are federal employees able to collectively bargain for pensions and other benefits?

    To save you the trouble of rationalizing another reason to avoid the question, the answer is: they are not.

  121. Here’s one more for you, Slander….

    Truthbuster points out that Federal employees can’t collective bargain wages and benefits…..but…..it’s the cost of federal employees that is breaking the bank.

    Now RATIONALIZE THAT!!!!

    LOL

    Many public employees got away from negotiating wages long ago. My brother has been retired for about 15 years and they were not focused on wages when he last negotiated for his local.

    Kinda funny how the whole “employees breaking the government” comes back to haunt you, huh?

  122. took14theteam says:

    ::::::eye roll:::::

    :::::just give it up:::::

  123. Has the conservative position changed again in the past few minutes? I’m trying to watch the basketball game.

  124. aislander says:

    That’s easy. Because federal employee unions are essentially bargaining with themselves, federal employees are grossly overpaid compared to private-sector workers doing similar jobs.

    Very top-level employees do make more in the private sector but there are many more at lower levels in both sectors and that’s where the money is, due to sheer numbers of employees.

  125. aislander says:

    The New Party described itself as “progressive” and “social democrat,” just as beerBoy’s love-interest, Finland, does…

    Minutes of the meeting on January 11, 1996, of the New Party’s Chicago chapter read as follows:

    ”Barack Obama, candidate for State Senate in the 13th Legislative District, gave a statement to the membership and answered questions. He signed the New Party “Candidate Contract” and requested an endorsement from the New Party. He also joined the New Party.”

    Consistent with this, a roster of the Chicago chapter of the New Party from early 1997 lists Obama as a member, with January 11, 1996, indicated as the date he joined.

  126. OK…so now…the Federal employees haven’t negotiated wages or benefits since 1978….but we’re going to drag Obama into it because he was 16 years old, living in Hawaii and making a bunch of guys smoke dope, according to the latest birther rumor.

    State employees in Wisconsin conceded wages, time off, and benefits, but Wisconsin is broke because of state employee costs.

    I think I’m getting it now…

    I thought the “new party” was the TEA Party….

  127. “are federal employees able to collectively bargain for pensions and other benefits?
    To save you the trouble of rationalizing another reason to avoid the question, the answer is: they are not.”

    “Because federal employee unions are essentially bargaining with themselves”

    Make up your mind!!!

  128. took14theteam says:

    ::::::making it up as he goes along LarryH:::::

  129. “You kids act on the assumption that all jobs are created by govt with taxpayer monies.”

    Again….180 degrees from reality, how do you do it ct7?

  130. It’s so nice for Slander to throw me these softballs :)

  131. “If you will just stop drinking the liberal Kool-Aid long enough to study the facts you would hace some creditability at this site.”

    Todays hypocrisy moment!

  132. aislander says:

    Federal employees and Democrat pols both want the same thing: overpaid federal employees beholden to Democrats.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm

  133. “The Obama regime violated the contract rights of GM bondholders, and it is only ONE of the companies that the regime saw into bankruptcy with its spublic equity speculation…”

    a*******r you haven’t told any out right lies is a few days, you broke that record today however.

  134. “Federal employees and Democrat pols both want the same thing: overpaid federal employees beholden to Democrats.”

    And you just did it again! Come on a*******r, you were doing so good, you were almost honest for more than 48 hours!

  135. charliebucket is yet another liberal that’s so p-o’d at FOX he can’t contain himself. All I see is FOX telling the truth to correct the lies told by all the rest of the media, and these libs just go berserk. I know they are having a tough time coming to the realization that there’s finally one source of truth on t.v. and it drives them bananas. Go FOX!! BTW, Bill O’Reilly’s show blows the others out of the water. Get used to it libs, as soon as some other media corporations see that there’s more money to be made by being honest, they’ll start getting rid of nut-jobs like Chris Matthews, “Brutha” Al Sharpton, Ed (Sgt) Schultz, Lawrence O’Donnel and the rest of those fools on liberal networks. Comcast, are you listening?

  136. “As the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Friday, federal employees are now underpaid by 26.3 percent compared with similar non-federal jobs, a two percent increase over the previous year.”

    CrooksandLiars.com

    Overpaid, huh?

    Keep trying. You almost changed the subject.

  137. “kluwer, Greece and the rest of Europe is melting down because of years of over spending and over dependency. The austerity, is only the reaction to them not having more of other people’s money to spend. we will be there soon.

    The crash in American was cuased by Fannie Mae etc. Not by Bush. He raised warnings of them. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd said they were fine. Dodd and Frank are both gone now. We are stuck with their mess.”

    philly, I KNEW you would regurgitate the right wing talking points. What else can you do?
    Come on man you know better than this, fanny and freddy? How many more times does that need to be debunked?
    The crash was caused by conservative ideals and legislation, namely deregulation. YOU are the one making the bush the failure claim…not me.
    He wasn’t bright enough and he was and still is a coward filling a suit for the TV cameras.
    I guess you answered my question though, you cons are vane enough to bring down the country rather than admit you are wrong.
    Sad too, this was a great country until you conservative ruined it.

    Keep watching Europe, that is what you idiots are trying to do here and your media has you brain washed to think it will some how work…this time.

  138. “Because federal employee unions are essentially bargaining with themselves, federal employees are grossly overpaid compared to private-sector workers doing similar jobs.”

    god a*******r, you are on a roll with the out right lies today!

  139. “Obama was (is?) a member of the New Party, an avowedly socialist organization.”

    Your lies are just getting pathetic now a*******r, just sad and pathetic.

  140. LarryH, NEWSFLASH! Scott Walker won! Game’s over, San Jose and San Diego votes to neuter unions, games over! Stop your blabbering. All the blogging and hand-wringing isn’t going to change that. Get ready for more of the same. It’s tough to be unemployed, but isn’t there something you can do to occupy your time? Maybe clean out your mother’s garage since you’re living in her basement for free.

  141. aislander says:

    So…do the BLS stats take benefits into account, as the Bureau of Economic Analysis stats do? Hmmm, Larr?

    BEA shows the federal employees earn just about double their private-sector counterparts when you do that little thing…

  142. slander….nope…not “private sector counterparts”.

    It was “average wage of fed empl. versus private empl.

    I saw that one. It was actually about $42K to 9K. Those right to work states really bring the national average down for private sector workers, don’t they?

    ::::hands slander a new shovel:::: Keep digging!!!

  143. frosty…..uh…you mean Scott Walker didn’t lose his job.

    On the other hand, there is a Democratic majority in the Wisconsin Senate now, that will reign in Walker and his illegal meetings.

    frosty, if you want to play with the big boys, you are going to have to bone up on current events and know something other than talking points.

  144. the3rdpigshouse says:

    When did taxpayers vote to allow those working in gov’t for the taxpayers to form labor unions???! Answer – they never did!!

  145. Piggy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act

    Read up.

    FrankBurns wants to do his pubescent male routine. If only he would have taken a civics class in middle school……

    :::sigh:::::

  146. averageJoseph says:

    Thanks for the link aislander. Very informative.

  147. averageJoseph says:

    HillLarry… got any more handy dandy predictions?

  148. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Try and act your age, Larry. And post a relevant link.

  149. aislander says:

    You don’t dazzle, Larr, but you DID baffle…for a short while.

  150. “The crash in American was cuased by Fannie Mae etc. Not by Bush. He raised warnings of them. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd said they were fine”

    Civics 101: Frank and Dodd were in the minority party at the time. They couldn’t have stopped anything.

  151. “Obama was (is?) a member of the New Party, an avowedly socialist organization.”

    And Thomas Sowell was a self-admitted Marxist. So is it OK to call him a commie?

  152. “BEA shows the federal employees earn just about double their private-sector counterparts”

    ROFL – nope. Not true. Not even close.

    The BEA shows that the average federal worker earns more than the average private sector worker, without comparing the jobs they do.

    For just a few examples:

    There are about 4 million food service workers in the US, earning on average about $18,000 a year. None of them work for the federal government. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and-serving/food-and-beverage-serving-and-related-workers.htm
    There are about 3.3 million cashiers in the US, earning about $18,500 per year. None of them work for the federal government either. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm
    There are about 4.5 million retail sales workers in the US, earning about $20,00 a year. None of them work for the federal government either. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/retail-sales-workers.htm
    There are about 2.3 million janitors in the US< earning an average of about $22,000 a year. None of them work for the federal government. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/building-and-grounds-cleaning/janitors-and-building-cleaners.htm

    Facts. They trump wrong-wing lies every time.

  153. “When did taxpayers vote to allow those working in gov’t for the taxpayers to form labor unions???! Answer – they never did!!

    When did taxpayer vote to authorize the invasion of Iraq? Answer – they didn’t.

  154. aislander – “love-interest”??!!???

    Give me a break. However, the Scandinavian countries do currently have a higher standard of living than we do AND there is far more upward mobility in those “progressive”, “social democratic” countries than in the US.

    I see you have gone back to your old ways of demonization through labeling. You have a 3rdpig gene in you – you use prettier and more impressive words than what he does (btw – where has the old “socialist/marxist” poster been lately?) but your tactics oftentimes are just the same.

  155. menopaws says:

    All the election in wisconsin proved is that money buys votes……..31 million $$$$$ of OUTSIDE money to boot………Americans, apparently , can be bought and the Republican party has the Koch Brothers, the oil and banking industry behind them to prove it….Save the argument about “Hollywood” money and Obama–doesn’t even come close to the kind of money these conservatives are willing to spend to get their corporate power back in the White House…..Trust me, their MBA President Bush did what corporate America wanted—they drove us off the cliff once and they will do it again….People are soooo dumb–they want the same people to pick their pockets a SECOND time…….But, hey–you want to sell out your vote to the highest bidder–go for it…..don’t come back to this blog whining when your job is cut or you have NO healthcare…….They get what they pay for–you don’t!!!!!

  156. If this is all about some perceived advantage that public unions have when bargaining with a Governor that they supported, then why didn’t Walker step up and show us how it’s done by negotiating with the union in good faith? Why did he and his buddies feel the need to pass a law stripping the union members of their ability to bargain collectively?

  157. charliebucket says:

    frosty: I am not pissed off at FOX, I am pointing out the propaganda that conservatives are falling for. you are yet another conservative who is brainwashed. just because FOX says it speaks the truth does not make it the truth, just because they say they are fair and balanced does not make them fair and balanced. as a matter of fact, if they have to make all these claims, they are lying, get it? it’s called marketing.

    PS. I heard Bill O’reilly, his words to my ears, admit that he says outrageous things in order to sell his books….

    people!! you are being taken to the cleaners by entertainers using propaganda to get rich selling the biggest hyped up scam they can get away with. if they could make more money hating on another group of people besides Obama/democrats/liberals they would be going after that group!! wake up! you have been had!

  158. Because it’s all about big money and union busting and not about bargaining in good faith. Walker would outsource those public sector jobs if he could, just to punish those who have the audacity to exercise their rights under the first amendment.

  159. averageJoseph says:

    “I see you have gone back to your old ways of demonization through labeling”

    LMAO… do you really want to go there?

  160. averageJoseph says:

    LOL… Jr. jumped right in when “hand” got in trouble.

  161. ehill – I tried to nicely state that issue on “average” wage earlier, but they didn’t want to pay attention, so you had to slap them good.

    It’s really sad to see how low our “capitalist” country has driven the average wage of a working person, isn’t it? America is a great place to work and live, if you are a CEO.

  162. charlie – remember that propaganda only works when the receiver is ignorant enough to accept it without doing a little research.

    frosty does point out a sad issue – 37% (not 40) of union households voted to retain Walker. I’m not sure why 37% of union members would support a person who so blatantly is out to take away what they have, but I’m going to suggest that $31 million in propaganda was successful and the union members, rather than seek the truth of the issue, remained blissfully ignorant.

  163. FrankBurns – try this one also. It has a lot of the same information.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining

  164. concernedtacoma7 says:

    37% recognized that if the state kept pandering to unions and followed the path of fiscal irresponsibility they would be out of a job, the state would be broke, and their families and communities would suffer.

    When people vote with reason and sanity, they vote conservative.

  165. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Bb- nice to see that you have fully embraced socialism. You choose the one country doing well, based primarily on oil exploitation. Where is your envy of Greece and Spain?

  166. SwordofPerseus says:

    I understand that you right leaners are somewhat challenged by words so in the spirit of enlightenment here goes;
    mint/mint/
    Noun:

    1. An aromatic plant with two-lobed flowers (genus Mentha) native to temperate regions of the Old World, several kinds of which are used as…

    2. A place where money is coined.

    Frosty says, “All I see is FOX telling the truth to correct the lies told by all the rest of the media…” I assume you are being sarcastic, no one can be that simple minded to believe that FOX is not pushing a political agenda fueled by propaganda designed to incite anger and hatred. Did you know that FOX is owned by a proven liar from a former British penal colony, Rupert Murdoch and Alwaleed bin Talal, a Muslim Arab.

    Slander is not a good moniker for you it should be more like perjurer.
    Aislander says.”BEA shows the federal employees earn just about double their private-sector counterparts when you do that little thing…”

    And now for the real story as it happened…

    Excerpt from FactCheck.org article Dec 1, 2010;

    “Senator-elect Rand Paul of Kentucky, for example, said recently: “The average federal employee makes $120,000 a year. The average private employee makes $60,000 a year.” This has become a GOP talking point and the basis for the House Republicans’ call for a hiring freeze in the “Pledge to America.” But it’s misleading.

    The analysis is based on data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis and crudely done by dividing total compensation (salary and benefits) by the number of current federal civilian employees. Comparing such averages is quite misleading, for two reasons:

    First, BEA says the figure is inflated by including compensation that is actually paid to benefit retirees, not just for current workers. The figure is at least several thousand dollars too high, by our calculations.
    Second, the average federal civilian worker is better educated, more experienced and more likely to have management or professional responsibilities than the average private worker”

    More FOX lies to be regurgitated by cling-ons like slander and Conc7. what a mess…Hey guys and gals the mind is a terrible thing to waste, stop watching TV it is making you ignorant…and dishonest.

    By the way I am not a Liberal I am Progressive, and y’all are not Conservatives.

  167. SwordofPerseus says:

    Sorry forgot to add the like to the FactChek.org article here it is

    http://www.factcheck.org/2010/12/are-federal-workers-overpaid/

  168. CT7 – What I have always embraced is systems that work – I, unlike most of the posters here, am a pragmatist not an ideologue. The majority of capitalist economies are in trouble. The Scandinavian systems which combine capitalism and socialism work.

  169. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Once again you ignore the differences in the economies. Resource based vs services/manufacturing. Cultural differences (our freeloading).

    It works for THEM. Does not mean it will work for us.

    And lets not ignore that we have led the world for a century. Our current woes are caused by progressives forcing socialist policy on us. Statism. Collective over individuals.

  170. aislander says:

    So…even though we have way more government than we can pay for, there are reasons for it?

    I feel SO much better!!

    And I thought those government pensions were one of the major reasons we’re in trouble. Seems as though we should count them in somewhere…

  171. aislander says:

    What’s the population of Finland, again?

  172. ct7 – the height of America’s wealth and power was after Progressive era changes were implemented. Our current economic mess was brought in by neo-liberal, supply-side religion brought in by Saint Ronnie and followed by everybody since.

  173. aislander says:

    The height of America’s wealth and power was after the rest of the world had their Richards knocked into the dirt.

    It’s time to again become lean and compete

    You don’t make the weak strong by making the strong weak, and THAT’S been the thrust of all those “progressive” changes…

  174. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Beat me to it. We had the biggest (and only) manufacturing base after WWII.

    We held the advantage until the regulations and punishing tax structure took our knees out. Now we have the printing presses running full steam to fund progressive programs established with short sightedness in good times.

  175. “37% recognized that if the state kept pandering to unions and followed the path of fiscal irresponsibility they would be out of a job, the state would be broke, and their families and communities would suffer.”

    That is a perfect example of….

    “$31 million in propaganda was successful and the union members, rather than seek the truth of the issue, remained blissfully ignorant.”

    Meanwhile, FrankBurns cheers oil as the reason for Norwegian economy. Uh, Frank…the government owns the oil in Norway. You are applauding that which you claim to detest – a definite “Burnsism”.

    Frank Burns: “I’m sick of hearing about the wounded. What about all the thousands of wonderful guys who are fighting this war without any of the credit or the glory that always goes to those lucky few who just happen to get shot?”

  176. “until the regulations and punishing tax structure took our knees out”

    Everyone with an education knows that cheap foreign labor was the culprit.

    “It works for THEM. Does not mean it will work for us.”

    Do you now how many times I heard an alcoholic say “just because AA works for you, doen’t mean it will work for me”

  177. “What’s the population of Finland, again?”

    The United States is too big to be economically successful?

    Wonderful.

    The glass is more than half empty.

  178. aislander says:

    The United States is too big to dabble in socialistic foolishness…

  179. aislander says:

    I should say that the United States is too big to dabble further in socialistic foolishness, and it’s past time to undo the dabbling we’ve already done…

  180. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    cncernedtacoma7

    Don’t forget to give the unions most of the credit due for destroying the manufracturing base. Which, I have to say, will never return to these shores until we are a Right to Work nation.

    Hopefully soon.

  181. aislander says:

    I will break with policy and address seriously a point made by LarryH, who stated that our economic problems are created by “cheap foreign labor.”

    What if they are? What would you do about it–put up tariffs? We already know those are counterproductive. Get into a trade war with nations that hold our outsized debt? THAT’LL be productive!

    So, do we lower wages in this country in order to compete? We’re already doing that and nobody likes it.

    We need to be creative, adaptive, flexible, and agile so that we can stay ahead of our competitors.

    Are governments or unions renowned for being creative, adaptive, flexible, and agile?

  182. The United States was “the best” and “the best paid” in manufacturing for many, many years. What changed?

    Start with CEO salaries going from 35 to 1 ratio over workers to 235 to 1.

    We had more people WORKING for their money, instead of “watching their money work”.

    The primary problem is with a mindset that believes the workforce priced the products out. The automotive industry is the best example of where that is a false statement. The labor factor of a new car is 22%. How can labor be the problem with profit?

    As long as people are willing to accept the myths without investigation, they will be made fools of by those who enjoy the profits for doing nothing.

  183. aislander says:

    And that’s why there’s no talking with a progressive…

  184. The United States is too big to do something that works for others.

    That’s a great mindset for those that want to live off the profits of cheap offshore labor.

    The lower you make the wages of the middle class work force, the less money there is to spend on goods and services. Result? Depression. Proven time and again…but let’s not rely on historical proof.

  185. Why is that aislander? Because we dig into the subject and don’t just take corporate talking points? Or is that just your way of saying that you can’t come up with anymore baloney so you’ll try to deflect off progressives?

    I’ll take “both of the above”.

    I notice you don’t dispute the 22% labor factor on a new auto.

    “Get into a trade war with nations that hold our outsized debt?”

    And HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? By starting wars and not funding them with our own tax dollars. Instead we borrowed to pay for them and payed principle, interest and BLACKMAIL prices.

    Thank the Bush Administration for the hole that Obama and others are supposed to fill.

    More facts that you can deflect.

  186. And…all the while…Taxedenough is still not disclosing his employer so that union families can avoid doing business with him and not taint his non-union money. Now, that’s not counting the union wages that come into his house.

    Hypocrisy. It’s a conservative brand.

  187. aislander says:

    All you have to do is light the fuse…

  188. All you have to do is provide facts and watch the back peddling begin…

  189. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Larry, what is our labor costs (automotive) compared to other nations?

    You deflect (Iraq) then whine about deflecting!! Ha!

  190. aislander says:

    I made a point (that we need to be quickly adaptable and creative in our business practices) that Lard never responded to, and then it accused ME of dodging–if that is what is meant by “deflecting”–and went on an off-point rant.

    That’s why I avoid engaging with most lefties, and prefer to make my points in other ways…

  191. “LMAO… do you really want to go there?”

    Why not? You’re already there.

  192. “LOL… Jr. jumped right in when “hand” got in trouble.”

    Thanks for proving my point.

  193. “The United States is too big to dabble in socialistic foolishness…”

    Do you check under your bed at night for socialists? LOL

  194. “I avoid engaging with most lefties, and prefer to make my points in other ways…”

    By posting insults and easily-debunked falsehoods.

  195. The biggest loss in manufacturing has come since Reagan was elected president. He was a big union buster. He wasn’t a “progressive” – and neither were any of those that came after him.

  196. aislander says:

    And, you, beerBoy are confusing coincidence with causation–the classic logical fallacy (unlike the illogical phallusies that are your coreligionists)…

  197. aislander says:

    Er…sorry…couldn’t resist…

  198. sumyungboi says:

    letter writer: “Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker was caught several times on tape regarding his intent to break the state’s public employee unions ..”

    First, it’s kinda funny that leftists now brag about how they lie, as in calling Walker misrepresenting who they are. But that’s what the left does, they have to lie about who they really are, since normal people reject what they stand for.

    Second, even after that knowledge, Wisconsin voters overwhelmingly rejected the left’s whines, after seeing firsthand the benefits of busting public sector unions. Good for them.

  199. “When people vote with reason and sanity, they vote conservative.”

    It’s amazing, no matter what ct7 says, it’s 180 degrees from reality!

  200. “Bb- nice to see that you have fully embraced socialism”

    See what I mean?
    180 degrees!

  201. “Wisconsin voters overwhelmingly rejected the left’s whines, after seeing firsthand the benefits of busting public sector unions. Good for them.”

    “Overwhelmingly”??
    Really?
    Just where is the cut off for that term, or are you redefining the word to fit your agenda as usual?
    walker barely won and in fact since he is now neutered, he effectively lost.
    There was nothing ‘overwhelming’ about the election, nothing at all.

  202. “That’s why I avoid engaging with most lefties, and prefer to make my points in other ways…”

    Yes a*******r, you use lies and juvenile insults.

  203. ct7 whines,
    “We held the advantage until the regulations and punishing tax structure took our knees out. Now we have the printing presses running full steam to fund progressive programs established with short sightedness in good times.”

    Which is 180 degrees out from reality.

  204. sumyungboi says:

    kluwer: ““Overwhelmingly”??
    Really?”

    Yes, and leftists are panicking. It’s really funny, actually.

  205. “Don’t forget to give the unions most of the credit due for destroying the manufracturing base. Which, I have to say, will never return to these shores until we are a Right to Work nation.

    Hopefully soon.”

    Those are also known as ‘3rd world nations’ and we are stupid enough to give control to the rightwing, that is where we will end up.

  206. “Yes, and leftists are panicking. It’s really funny, actually.”

    ROTFL!!!

  207. sumyungboi says:

    kluwer: “ROTFL!!!”

    I know, me too!

  208. aislander says:

    To answer the question that Lard couldn’t or wouldn’t: a truly free market is the only mechanism that is visionary and productive enough to give America a chance to prosper in the global economy in which we must compete, and from which we cannot withdraw.

  209. philichi says:

    Kluwer, Larry, Beerboy, and my other liberal friends, there isn’t much that I agree with you about. However, I wonder if you agree with these 4 facts. 1)the sun rises in the east, 2)gravity generally pulls things down, 3)the current budget of both the US and Washington State on unsustainable, 4)If you took all of the income from the wealthy,(not just a %) that wouldn’t even give our US government the $1.4 trillion extra that it needs to have a balanced budget.

    This is a yes or no answer. I just want to see if we are even on the same planet.

  210. “it’s kinda funny that leftists now brag about how they lie, as in calling Walker misrepresenting who they are”

    ROFL – that’s so funny! I seem to recall all the conservatives cackling with glee when they “lied” (to use your word) to ACORN. Thanks for the excellent example of conservative hypocrisy.

  211. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Ehill and Klu- are you embarrassed by your juvenile behavior?

    Larry, Bb, Alindasue- are you embarrassed by their behavior? If it some tactic to simply annoy and drive right-leaning posters away, do you support that?

  212. sumyungboi says:

    ehill: “I seem to recall all the conservatives cackling with glee when they “lied” (to use your word) to ACORN.”

    That’s was pretty cool, wasn’t it? :)

    Of course, the big difference being that one was an undercover sting, and the other was representing one’s self as a well known specific person and supporter. Nice try, though.

  213. aislander says:

    I’ve asked that question before, ct7, and no liberals would respond at that time. I’m interested to see if you will have better luck.

    I remember a discussion that revolved around a question very close to yours, that being: can someone on the left be embarrassed to his left? The consensus was that he could not.

    You look at the brutality committed by leftists since 1917 (I would say since the French revolution), and it’s difficult to find lefties who will condemn any of it with the enthusiasm they reserve for, say, Nazi atrocities. Of course the Nazis were putative leftists, but have, through sophistry and revisionist history, been put on the right.

    If you attempt to entice a lefty into criticizing the bloody-handed regime of Fidel Castro, for example, you may elicit cursory agreement but the subject quickly will be changed to how great is the health care…

  214. philichi says:

    ehill what to you think of my questions? do you have an answer?

  215. philichi says:

    aislander: I am coming to learn that some just see things different. We both can see the same picture yet some see different than me. Therefore, I want to see if there is even a starting point. You see if there is no budget problem than they are right. Scott Walker was wrong.

  216. First – this plum from “boi”:

    “it’s kinda funny that leftists now brag about how they lie, as in calling Walker misrepresenting who they are. But that’s what the left does, they have to lie about who they really are, since normal people reject what they stand for.”

    Now….was it a “leftist” that went to the ACORN office dressed like a “pimp” with prostitute partner? That was one of the misrepresentations….

    Of course, the big difference being that one was an undercover sting, and the other was representing one’s self as a well known specific person and supporter.

    Oh gaaaaaaaawd…hold me back. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little…or maybe that was nose snorting my coffee on my screen…

    FrankBurns – “Iraq” (actually TWO WARS UNFUNDED) was brought up as a logical answer to Aislander’s question about formulating tariffs to countries to whom we are deeply in debt (China).

    You really need to follow the dialog to avoid looking like a fool.

    ehill – did you notice while aislander was crying about how progressives don’t play nice with him, he remembered to refer to me as “Lard”. I’m betting he used to hide behind his mommy’s dress while making faces when she was telling his little friends that they needed to be nicer to him.

  217. philichi – no, we are not on the same planet. I’m on Earth and you are on Uranus.

  218. concernedtacoma7 says:

    What a deflection. Answer one of the questions Larry.

    Write a LTE with all your usual deflections/talking points (iraq, war funding, anything Bush, FNC, Koch Bros) and I will debate on the ‘unfunded’ argument.

    Until then, focus! Try and keep up, stick to a theme.

  219. Taxedenough: you say the same thing over and over again, cut and paste must work wonders for you!

  220. aislander says:

    …but I called you that with all due respect and affection!

    PS: It is short for Lardnos, a substitute for he-who-must-not-be-named. I’m afraid you remind me of that late and very unlamented (though lamentable) moniker in both style and substance–to the degree that there IS substance in your posts…

  221. As to Walker’s “overwhelming” win – remember, Bush pulling Ohio out with help from Diebold was a “landslide” and a “mandate” (a word they probably mixed up the regular visits to the White House from Ted Haggard).

    Walker couldn’t win, he could only lose. That’s what a recall is.

  222. aislander – save your affection for those on Uranus

  223. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    You know when the whacked out, weenie armed, pencil neck, geeky, red doper diaper baby liberals result to name calling and insults the right side of this debate has won.

    This is my last comment, ready for a new topic. GOP 1, lunatic fringe zero.

    Say bye

  224. aislander says:

    So…if those pushing the recall didn’t win…didn’t they lose? And if they (the union thugs, that is, and if you argue that they are not thugs, think back to the “protests” in Madison) lost, doesn’t that MAKE Walker the winner?

    Well, Walker and the people of Wisconsin…

  225. sumyungboi says:

    Larry, a few years ago, people were ready to declare conservatism dead, Time ran the cover that “We’re All Socialists Now”, leftists controlled both houses of congress, and leftist sat in The White House. Progressives thought they had a mandate, thought that they could come out into the light of day, but when normal people actually saw what the left is all about, it’s been rejected, big time.

    The rejection of public sector union in Wisconsin was huge, and it’s funny to watch you guys hyperventilate about it. Downplay it all you want, the left lies to everyone else, you guys might as well lie to yourselves, too! :)

  226. aislander says:

    Oh, and I said “with all due…affection.”

    So there isn’t any.

  227. concernedtacoma7 says:

    That debt is there. Dems and republicans are to blame. Happy?

    Now provide a solution. Only one party has something proposed, on paper, voted for. Stopped by Harry.

  228. If you get a majority in the Senate that you didn’t have, did you win?

    Since the word “union” is in your alleged mind, tied with “thugs”, I guess we’ll now refer to Walker as “Walker the Criminal”.

    Are you referring to the “protests” with the palm trees? There are no palm trees in Wisconsin, but FOX would like you to believe there are.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RClJ6vK9x_4

    Taxedenough – why don’t you just admit that you like union money in your bank account, but don’t want to support the unions that provide money for your bank account? We understand what a moocher is.

  229. There are two ways to eliminate debt. Too bad Republicans are so short sighted

  230. Isn’t it funny how, in this “capitalist” society that the Republicans say they want, the source of all their problems is that middle class union workers “make too much money”.

  231. philichi says:

    there are some that look at Europe and see only the cuts now. They had no idea that Greece and France and some of the others let some retire at 50.

    I have learned through these dialogues that libs see the world, budgets, labor, and everything different than I do

    Interesting thing about this is that about 30% agree with them all of the time. About 30% agree with me all of the time. The middle 40% is what elections are fought over. We call them independents. They are currently pissed off at govt employees and whining teachers, they know that our budgets are out of control and want something done about it. They really don’t care about class war fare. They like I, all know people that got rich on their own. They are proud of them and want the best.

    This is why I think that the left will have trouble this year. They have yet to make a plan to deal with budgets. They can’t as soon as they do they have to step on public unions, medicare, social security, etc. they are trapped.

  232. philichi says:

    Larry, you do think that there is a budget problem, right? Do you think that $1.4 trillion a year short fall will work for the long run? Do you think that all of this can be raised by the Buffet tax? For you information, that will be about $3 billion per year. What is your plan?

    Hint, George Bush shouldn’t be in your answer. We are looking for solutions, not blame. Go ahead, tell us.

  233. sumyungboi says:

    Larry, I have no problem with labor unions, although they outlived their usefulness years ago, since current labor laws cover what their beefs were in the first place. My problem is with public sector unions who collect dues, use the money to help elect politicians who then appoint cronies to negotiate contracts with the labor unions who donated to their campaigns. In the private sector, management and labor give and take, not so with public sector negotiations, where both sides take and the losers are the taxpayers.

  234. philichi says:

    concernedtacoma, we have found the chink in the liberal armor. Like Obama, they are great stone throwers and complainers. However, when given the chance like we just gave Larry to lead, it falls apart. Community organizers are great at getting people mad at others. However, when it comes to leadership, the whole system falls apart.

    common Larry, give me some solutions, fix the world! balance the budgets both in the US, Washington state, and Greece. I will give you a hint, the size and scope of government should be in the answer.

  235. averageJoseph says:

    And now, the knee slapper quote of the month goes to…

    “I, unlike most of the posters here, am a pragmatist not an ideologue.

    BeerBoy :) LMFAO!

  236. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Answering a question truthfully is beyond liberal capabilities. Spin and deflect.

  237. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Lol!

  238. testing, testing…..is this thing on?????

    Mr. P –

    I have to admit, you are quite entertaining with your game of solo verbal horseshoes, changing the ebb and flow of the game to suit how close or how far away each chance takes you. Then, finally, watching you award yourself the grand prize is astonishing!

    I’m not much on answering steered questions, as I’ve spent a lifetime in sales management, in addition to media buying. I’ve seen manipulators work the game and, frankly, you’re not that good at it.

    To enter into a serious budget discussion with someone who pretends that the sole reason for the 2008 Wall Street crash was “freddy/fannie” is a waste of time.

    Anyone knows that there are two ways to make up a deficit – more revenue and less debt – and generally a combination of the two is the most efficient. Those that claim it’s all about cuts are not paying attention to the millions of examples in the business world every day.

    If you’re looking for a cheerleader, FrankBurns is a perfect partner for you – lacking real knowledge of the subject matter and reluctant to study any reliable sources.

    Finally….don’t you find it just a bit ironic that the person who throws “Greece” into every conversation possible should not be limiting anyone saying “George Bush” when talking about the US economic woes?

    Nice Beavis and Butthead, Frankburns.

  239. Here is how you WILL NOT balance a budget or get rid of a deficit:

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_08/tentoone_isnt_good_enough_for031484.php

    watch the video

  240. Gee…where’s all the cute jokes????

    Nothing like facts to get in the way…..

    “Community organizers are great at getting people mad at others.”

    Whose campaigning relies solely on demonizing the opposition? Who wrote the book on negative campaigning?

    See, when it all comes to the surface, there is no amount of jokes, rhetoric or slogans that is going to change the point that the Republicans from 2001 to 2007 took us here and there is no quick way out. Try as you might, you cannot rewrite history.

  241. aislander says:

    Washington Monthly, huh? I’m not going to pull the lefty trick of trying to refute the assertion by impeaching the medium. I’ll do that by pointing out that there is absolutely no way of knowing how much revenue in dollars will be realized with a tax-rate increase, so the ten-to-one thing is an illusion.

    You CAN say that a cut will be so many dollars, but the corresponding tax increase is just a political gag…

    And Washington Monthly IS a lefty spurt…not that there’s anything wrong with that…

  242. aislander says:

    Oh, and Vox: re the LarryH fixation on Uranus: I’ve discovered whence LH pulls his political views, and it’s not where you think! It’s not even a planet. Or a body part.

    It’s the Washington Monthly the orbit of which is in the far reaches of the fever swamps and NOT between Saturn and Neptune…

  243. concernedtacoma7 says:

    2007? What has happened since then?

    Thanks for joining the right side of history Larry. Same year Harry and Nacy took charge. That is causation!! Two years later Obamacareless and D-F in the middle of ‘the worst economy since the Great Depression’.

    Yet somehow the leftists think if we move farther left things will be great.

  244. aislander says:

    Negative campaigning is when Democrats lie about Republicans and Republicans tell the truth about Democrats…

  245. SwordofPerseus says:

    So that’s the brilliant plan slander and conc7? Just match wages nickle for nickle with the Vietnamese? It is a race to the bottom. Cut taxes more? Deregulate more. It is not working now; anyone with two brain cells can see it’s not. We tried that since Ray-gun with every Republican Pres. including Obama. Hey did you know that Obama’s policies are slightly to the right of Richard Nixon?

    Discard public education, it is a useless endeavor to educate the rabble. It discourages a thrifty working class and makes a bunch of starry eyed dreamers with ideas. If you educate the masses they will likely become self aware and gain a sense of empathy for their fellow man, oh my! Next they might vote for social reforms and healthcare for all citizens. Good clean water and air. Good roads and parks. Well trained police and fire departments. That simply is not in the plans for the Republicons. How will they fund their continuous wars of aggression and imperialism for profit if they let this continue to happen?

    Hey how would you like to work for 3 or 4 dollars a day? That is what simple minded tools like Conc7, Taxed’nuf, and Slander are advocating. They are so rabidly anti government they’re willing to destroy our country by fulfilling the wishes of the fascist oligarchs who are spending tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on propaganda and lies.

    This is not what America is supposed to be like. There is enough material wealth to go around for all Americans to live and prosper at a very good middle class level. That has been robbed from us by clever bankers and lapdog politicians not by “liberal, socialist, democrat, commie, zionist, fascist, african, zombies” as some would believe. They’re are so good at lying in fact many don’t even know it is happening. And they won’t know until it’s too late, in spite of all of the obvious warning signs and people trying to warn them. They will simply deny the reality until they get a cold slap in the face.

  246. tree_guy says:

    Hey how would you like to work for 3 or 4 dollars a day? That is what simple minded tools like Conc7, Taxed’nuf, and Slander are advocating.” sword

    Read more here: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2012/06/08/the-koch-connection-ultimate-union-busting-goals/#comments#storylink=cpy

    Your question assumes that if their were no unions that wages would fall to 3 or 4 dollars per day. Where did you get this information? I didn’t see it in the comments of the people you mentioned.

    Why don’t you mention for all of us the many companies set up by liberals which pay entry level employees wonderful family level wages? OK, if you can’t name “many” then how about just naming one? This is the land of opportunity but one thing we never actually ever see is a liberal setting up a company and putting their high-wage philosophy into practice.

  247. Walker won because the Dems put up a guy who was just as bad as Walker:

    The Democratic candidate that ran against Walker, Tom Barrett, is a typical corporate party man. That is, he is no legitimate friend of the unions and workers. As mayor in Milwaukee he attempted to take over the city’s public school district, angering the cities African-American community. (2) He is also a supporter of charter schools and has said this is an area where he can work together with Walker. (3)

    During the uprising, he proposed an alternative budget to Walkers that extended its cuts to benefits and pensions to police and fire fighters as well, in opposition to the aspirations of those protesting at the Capitol. (4)

    While dealing with Milwaukee’s government workers, represented by the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), Barrett refused to extend their contract after it expired. He used “Walkers’ tools” to enforce health cuts and went even farther in eliminating provisions that had been bargained for years, such as limits on overtime, mileage reimbursement, make-up pay for days lost to inclement weather, etc. In the end, rather than going after the 1%, his attack on AFSCME’s membership cost them almost $1 million. (5)

    http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/mark-vorpahl/43713/learning-from-wisconsin

  248. philichi says:

    Larry, your non solution to my question reads loud. What I find interesting isn’t that you don’t have an answer, but rather that you are not even interested in a solution to budget problems. Yes, you will throw out things like “balanced approach” and “shared sacrifice”. But those aren’t really solutions. They are just concepts. Is this why the Dem senate has written no budget?

    When you come down with cancer, you want to be healed. What if your doctor had no cure or plausible treatment? what if he said, “we will look for a shared solution”. What if He simply would like to criticize why you got it? No, we want a plan of action now. By the way, most believe that our budget is out of control.

    I am thrilled that you were a sales manager. However, you misread my question. I actually wanted to know if you cared about budgets and numbers? I wanted to learn from you as a rep of the left. I wanted you teach me what makes us different. What i have learned is that the left, is like children, not capable of budgets and hard decisions. Rather, they are really good talented people, they just need some adult supervision.

    That is how the 40% independent American people will vote this year. Have a great day.

  249. tommy98466 says:

    This is total, left, liberal, talking points spin. It was the unions and outside folks like Jessee Jackson and Al Sharpton, the hustlers, meddling in the affairs of the State of Wisconsin and spending the missions of dollars. Hooray for Scott Walker.

  250. concernedtacoma7 says:

    SoP, you hint at ‘spreading the wealth’ around. Why not just create new wealth? There is not a finite amount of wealth.

    Next question- do you just give the poor a check? Seize money from the rich?

    No matter how you spin it you are taking about govt punishing the rich and rewarding the poor. Furthering the freeloading that already exists.

    And your previous post read like a Maddow rant. Who does not want nice parks and clean air? Who wants kids to grow up uneducated (honestly, with the defense of the unions, the answer to that one is dems)? What silly, childish statements. Who pays for your parks when the town is broke and you have taken the wealth from the rich? Who pays for the police/firemen when a town is broke?

    Come back down to Earth.

  251. sumyungboi says:

    beerboy: “Walker won because the Dems put up a guy who was just as bad as Walker ..”

    Please. This was going to be a referendum on Walker’s union busting, remember? Everyone in Wisconsin hated Walker, remember? A shoe should have been able to beat the guy, listening to the leftists.

    Ah, but this turned out to not be so much about Walker’s union busting, although most people now see the value in busing public sector unions, if there were any “referendum”, it was about the childish tactics of the marxist wing of the democrat party. People remember the hippies refusing to leave the capitol building. People remember doctors handing out sick notes so that public employees can protest at taxpayers’ expense. People remember democrat state senators hiding in Illinois for the purpose of subverting the state’s constitution. All of that stuff might have fired up the commies and the hippies, but it turns off normal people, as evidenced by the fact that Walker won by a wide margin in a state where Obama has a significant lead over Romney. Normal people get real turned off seeing public employees and politicians stomping their feet and having temper tantrums like little babies.

    beerboy: “The Democratic candidate that ran against Walker, Tom Barrett, is a typical corporate party man.”

    So it sounds like even regular democrat voters in Wisconsin rejected the marxist wing of the party. There may be hope.

  252. “That is how the 40% independent American people will vote this year.”

    I rest my case. philichi has posed and answered his own question. I believe that is called a ringer in verbal solo horseshoes. I repeat: “To enter into a serious budget discussion with someone who pretends that the sole reason for the 2008 Wall Street crash was “freddy/fannie” is a waste of time.”

    “And your previous post read like a Maddow rant” – so sayeth the fool who has never watched Maddow enough to know that she doesn’t rant. That is reserved for Bill O’Reilly.

    “And Washington Monthly IS a lefty spurt…not that there’s anything wrong with that…” So, Aislander….tell us how the Democrats gathered the Republicans for the video of that illegal meeting to post it in a bias magazine. :::::head shake::::::: Here, maybe this youtube version will work better for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Xa0wacMDM

  253. “it was about the childish tactics of the marxist wing of the democrat party.”

    Makes you wonder what “boi” would call the Boston Tea Party….

  254. ::::waiting:::

    I’m waiting for Aislander to state that the video was shot by a Democratic videographer with a camera made in Maoist China.

  255. “What i have learned is that the left, is like children, not capable of budgets and hard decisions. Rather, they are really good talented people, they just need some adult supervision.”

    Phili forgets that the last president to balance the budget was Bill Clinton, who is to the left of Ho Chi Minh in Republicanspeak.

    Now is there any wonder why a discussion with you is not to be taken seriously?

  256. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Did Bill balance it or congress? Funny how you credit/blame congress.

  257. Oh…I was hoping one of you would fall in that trap, FrankBurns.

    When Bill Clinton balances the budget, it’s “Congress”.

    When Obama is president, it’s his job to balance the budget.

    Thanks for being so dependable and remember…

    “It’s not the color of his skin…it’s his policies….”

    Did you happen to notice the majority in the House right now? How about the filibuster frequent Senate? Why can’t Congress get their job done?

  258. aislander says:

    Er…I think those were two different venues, so your “point” is a LITTLE ambiguous.

    The first seemed to be about accepting tax increases in exchange for spending cuts. I responded to that in a serious way, but you ignored that and chose to address the humorous take that followed. By the way, Reagan fell into that trap and NEVER got the spending cuts…

    The second is about some vote in Wisconsin about which I care nothing (as if running off to Illinois or wherever to AVOID voting is legitimate governance).

    It all seems a little schizophrenic…

  259. aislander says:

    And I always say, “You know: that planet between Saturn and Neptune…”
    Kidding! (I feel I must point that out for the benefit of the obtuse)

    Standard pronunciation is fine, but people will pronounce words that are rarely encountered the way they will pronounce them.

    “Madagascar” is a perfect example. Most dictionaries prefer “MAD-uh-GAS-kuhr,” but, thanks to the movie, all one hears is “MAD-uh-GAS-KAR.”

    So you can say we are chasing our tails (or Uranus), but your point about pronunciation is as valid as most of your other ones…

  260. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Larry- the President’s job is to get things done, compromise, lead the Nation.

    Bill did not give up and just pass blame/make excuses. He worked with the other side. He moved to the center when he saw his leftist agenda failing. BHO has not moved anywhere near the center. He has not worked with republicans on any policy.

    The voters saw the damage he was doing and revolted against his party in 2010. They confirmed the backlash in Wisconsin. The final confirmation will be in Nov.

    Mitt has shown he can work across the aisle. He was a republican gov in a very leftist state. Good or bad, he pushed policy through. He did whine, blame, or make excuses.

    Vote Romney!

  261. sumyungboi says:

    Larry: “Makes you wonder what “boi” would call the Boston Tea Party….”

    Makes you wonder if larry’s one of those dime-a-comment guys, since your childish reaction in no way refuted anything I’d written. An example of why the commie wing of the party is going the way of the dinosaur. You guys are really good at chanting stuff, repeating what some hippie with a megaphone is yelling from a riser somewhere, but that gives you the false impression that there are actually more of you than there really are. Most people reject the far left, big time.

  262. “Of course the Nazis were putative leftists, but have, through sophistry and revisionist history, been put on the right.”

    Seriously a*******r?? This dead horse again?
    I mean you conservatives live by the ‘tell the lie often enough’ meme but you have told this one and told it, NO ONE is buying it.

  263. I have a question for you philly,
    Name one thing the right has done in the last 30 years that has worked.

    Should be easy, since you all think you are perfect and all.
    I’ve asked this question many times…..no one can answer it.
    Wonder why?

  264. “The rejection of public sector union in Wisconsin was huge”

    Repeat the lie…..

  265. “You know when the whacked out, weenie armed, pencil neck, geeky, red doper diaper baby liberals result to name calling and insults”

    ROFL

  266. aislander says:

    Membership in Wisconsin public-employee unions is plummeting.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/347808/20120601/wisconsin-union-membership-plunges.htm

  267. sumyungboi says:

    kluwer: ““The rejection of public sector union in Wisconsin was huge”

    Repeat the lie…..”

    Then what was the point of a bunch of hippies and commie teachers stinking up the capitol for days on end? You guys are funny.

  268. Phil,

    OK, I’ll give it a shot.

    “1)the sun rises in the east”

    Strictly speaking, the sun doesn’t rise – the Earth rotates. But aside from that minor point, I agree.

    “2)gravity generally pulls things down”

    Depends on how you define “down” (the sun pulls the earth toward it, but we think of the sun as “up”, not “down”). Aside from that, I agree.

    “3)the current budget of both the US and Washington State on unsustainable”,

    3. Spending is relatively (not absolutely) flat. However, governmental revenue has declined dramatically, which it always does in a downturn. Should we dramatically cut spending? Not if you know what happened in 1937. The federal government is the largest consumer in the economy. When you dramatically reduce consumer spending, the economy tanks. That’s what happened in 1937.

    Tax reductions aren’t the answer either. Reagan’s tax cut was followed by sixteen straight months of increasing (not decreasing) unemployment. Bush’s tax cut was followed by a similar rise. In those latter case, it took FIVE YEARS to recover. People forget that at this same point in the Bush administration, our economy had LOST about a million jobs. I don’t recall any conservatives running around screaming that the world was coming to an end then. Oh, that’s right, the conservatives were in charge then.

    4)If you took all of the income from the wealthy,(not just a %) that wouldn’t even give our US government the $1.4 trillion extra that it needs to have a balanced budget.”

    I don’t know of anyone who said we should tax the rich at 100%, so this question is meaningless hyperbole.

    This hysteria over the debt is just that – hysteria. Our debt (as a percent of GDP) was significantly higher during and after WWII. Did anyone seriously suggest then that we surrender because we couldn’t afford the spending? No. We didn’t collapse then because of the debt, and we won’t now. I have no problem with spending reductions, but this isn’t the time for that. Now is the time to stimulate the economy and get it moving again, and when it’s firing on all cylinders, then we can address debt reduction.

  269. “You guys are funny.”

    Yes you are.

  270. sumyungboi says:

    kluwer, if the Wisconsin vote was not a big deal, then explain why the far left even bothered to petition a recall election and then spend millions of dollars campaigning to oust Walker? Why are there now 270 comments in this section, most of them from leftists? The left’s taken to the woodshed, and the response is, no biggie. :)

    Yes, you guys _are_ funny!

  271. aislander says:

    I really have to laugh at the claiming of victory by someone who has not offered one persuasive argument–on ANY topic, but only the claim itself…

    That is LESS than a circular argument.

  272. “Did Bill balance it or congress?”

    The federal budgets – as submitted by the president and passed by Congress – are available online. They show that the budgets submitted by Clinton were smaller than as passed by those frugal Republicans.

  273. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Ah, the 1937 depression argument recycled yet again. Krugman talking point 101.

    WWII deficits were higher, not the debt. Huge difference, and in WWII we were busy defeating the greatest collection of evil in history. Today we are spending insane sums to fund socialist programs and entitlements.

    Let’s look at the 1920 depression. Or the slow down in spending post WWII. The cuts did not make the economy collapse. Just the opposite.

  274. “kluwer, if the Wisconsin vote was not a big deal, then explain why the far left even bothered to petition a recall election and then spend millions of dollars campaigning to oust Walker?

    When you can outspend your opponent by seven to one, you’ll win almost every time.

    Funny thing about that election. Exit polls showed that even though they voted to retain Walker, voters preferred Obama over Willard by about 7 points.

  275. “WWII deficits were higher, not the debt.”

    Here’s a clue, because you so obviously need one. When you make stuff up, you should at least try to make it something that’s hard to debunk.

    Gross Federal debt FY1946: 121% of GDP.
    Gross Federal debt FY2011: 98.7% of GDP.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BUDGET-2013-TAB/xls/BUDGET-2013-TAB-7-1.xls

    Facts. They trump wrong wing lies. Yet again.

  276. aislander says:

    So…if Barrett underperformed in the actual voting as opposed to exit polling, is it not logical to infer that Obama will as well?

    Throw in the Bradley effect, in which people don’t want to appear racist by stating their opposition to a black candidate…

  277. Aslander – the great migration of jobs overseas occurred under Bush2 and has slowed under Obama. Thus, we must conclude that Bush’s policies encouraged outsourcing and Obama’s policies discourage (or at least push back).

    The only jobs the job senders what to create in this country are slave wage, no benefit jobs that serve to enrich the rich.
    The rich already pay very low or no taxes and you think they are overtaxed?

    Oh btw – the republicons in congress are blocking legislation that would give tax breaks for creating or returning jobs to the US.

  278. averageJoseph says:

    I remember quite well how Clinton opposed the Republican Congress’ balanced budget amendment as well as several other successful Republican sponsored reforms… that he subsequently took credit for.

  279. “Throw in the Bradley effect, in which people don’t want to appear racist by stating their opposition to a black candidate…”

    Yeah, I remember that phony claim from the 2008 election campaign as well. Remember how that worked out? LOL

  280. “So…if Barrett underperformed in the actual voting as opposed to exit polling”

    Barret didn’t underperform. He ended up getting just about what the polls said he would. Epic fail. Try again.

  281. aislander says:

    So…why were lefties such as xring bemoaning the disparity between the exit polls and the actual outcome? Hmmmm?

  282. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Ok ehill, I stand corrected. Big win for you. Now respond to the rest of it.

    And that debt had a purpose. Not to simply fund entitlements.

  283. Great work ehill!
    you will be attacked with a vengeance now!

  284. “Ok ehill, I stand corrected. Big win for you. Now respond to the rest of it.”

    I’ve already responded to your silly wrong-wing claim about the 1920 “recession”. If you can’t remember how embarrassed you were, that’s not my problem.

  285. “And that debt had a purpose. Not to simply fund entitlements.”

    That debt did two things:

    1. It paid for fighting the war.
    2. It stimulated the hell out of the economy, so it was firing on all cylinders by 1945. Because the economy was strong, government could cut expenses to reduce the debt without affecting the economy too seriously.

    As I said, that debt didn’t cause the economy to collapse then, and it’s not going to cause it to collapse now.

  286. took14theteam says:

    Thanks Larr..I mean Jr….

  287. averageJoseph says:

    Jr. is quite the sock…

  288. “Thanks Larr..I mean Jr….

    Jr. is quite the sock… “

    What great jobs of refuting the facts! You two are truly intellectual giants.

  289. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Can you really claim the economy surrounding WWII has any parrellel to today’s economy?

    Come on. Manufacturing vs today’s service economy. Who owned our debt then. Flexibility in the private sector (no EPA). Way lower structural costs to govt (less entitlement spending). No competition, internationally.

  290. “Can you really claim the economy surrounding WWII has any parrellel to today’s economy?</i?

    ROFMAO – that's hystericallly funny, coming from the author of “Let’s look at the 1920 depression”. Thanks for such a great laugh!

  291. aislander says:

    I REALLY “like” that last comment! Keep up the good work…

  292. I’m trying to live down to your standard.

  293. After it’s all said and done, Walker won. One of the happiest moments I’ve experienced in the past three and a half years was watching MSNBC’s Ed (sgt) Schultz’s face as his cause went down the toilet. Then watching one of MSNBC’s lap dogs, Joan Walsh try to explain why members of the military support the conservative side. She was so baffled, she started mumbling and couldn’t finish a sentence. Priceless!

  294. averageJoseph says:

    So the time stamp remains but Jr.’s comment is gone. Bummer. I could have used it in my hillfamilyhypocrisy file.

    So much for your repeated whining about the tone in here.

  295. Ho hum. Yet another off-topic personal insult. What a surprise.

  296. averageJoseph says:

    Probably, but since it appears the moderator deleted all but the time stamp and your name, we’ll have to wait til the next time you launch one, Jr.

    LMAO !

    ehill says:
    June 12, 2012 at 10:29 pm you are truly an imtellectual giant. ROFL

  297. “it appears the moderator deleted all but the time stamp and your name”

    It appears wrong. I posted to turn off the italics, which I mistakenly thought were still on.

    Do you EVER post on the topic, or is hurling insults really all you’ve got?

  298. pantomancer says:

    Hillary 2012

  299. writnstuff says:

    Frosty,

    You had your happy moment, I’m having mine. Now we just have to point out how that hack McKenna wasted so many state dollars during out most challenging economic times to exercise his faulty legal judgement and drag Washington kicking and screaming into this ridiculous legal battle against Affordable Health Care.

    After all, Chief Justice Roberts can’t be wrong, right?

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