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MARRIAGE: True Christians follow Bible, not feelings

Letter by Jerry R. Bressler, Fircrest on May 23, 2012 at 11:37 am with 72 Comments »
May 23, 2012 11:37 am

Re: Lutheran pastors supporting same-sex marriage (Viewpoint, 5-20).

I have yet to hear any one of them give a biblical basis for support of homosexuality, that is from Bible verses.  All I’ve heard were opinions that are primarily feelings-based and contingent on self.

People refer to Jesus as accepting of homosexuality, because he commands that we love our neighbor as ourselves, but that doesn’t mean that it includes embracing sin.  If we know the truth, then we ought to at least inform our neighbor of it. Remember, the true Christian follows the bible, not his or her fleeting thoughts or feelings.  The Bible is counterintuitive. This is why it’s so radical. Especially today, since leaning on our own intuitiveness is on the increase, so it seems.

Publicly chastising those who follow the Bible faithfully – and now asking churchgoers to not sign the Referendum 74 petition – seems to have two purposes. One is to persuade the weak in faith to go with the trends of our culture and not on the Bible. Two is to lay the groundwork for declaring the church illegitimate if the same-sex marriage bill is rejected in November.

Either way, it’s political correctness at its filthiest and baseless when referring to the Bible. Lord knows I signed R-74. I did it not because someone told me to do it, but so that I can vote my conscience in November, based on the rock of biblical principles and not on the shifting sands of public opinion.

Leave a comment Comments → 72
  1. Fibonacci says:

    Jerry
    You are free to believe what you will, to accept all or part of the Bible. I too am a Christian and believe that marriage is between a male and a female. However, we are a secular nation and what you and I define marriage to be is irrelevant. I have gay friends that have gone through a “marriage”. Now, I might not feel that they are married but THEY do and it is really none of my business. We don’t live by Biblical Laws, we live by secular laws and therefore we DON’T have the right to “VOTE” on the rights of others.

  2. Someone aleart the seafood business!!!! Christians don’t eat shellfish.

  3. charliebucket says:

    well said fibonacci. exactly.

  4. LarryH, I think there are more Christians who are divorced than eat shellfish, and if you combine the two, you see there aren’t many true Christians at all, at least ones who follow the Bible like the letter writer does. I am sure he doesn’t wear different types of fabric or any of the other abominations in the Bible, either.

    Personally, I think a true Christian follows Christ’s teachings instead of human interpretations of pre-historical mythology and even human interpretations based on mistranslations of writings written hundreds of years after Christ.

    However, if Jerry wants to call himself a true Christian, that’s fine by me, as long as he follows the Constitution and lets me call myself a true Christian and helps guarantee that I do not have to his religious beliefs when it comes to our secular laws.

  5. …helps guarantee that I do not have to FOLLOW his religious beliefs when it comes to our secular laws.

    Sorry.

  6. Theefrinker says:

    I think someone already wrote this logic-deficient letter. Following one’s intuition is everything. The people that wrote the parts of the bible (the first time) were even following their intuition. And the people who edited and re-wrote the bible were following their intuition. So by following your bible, it is actually you who is following the trends of your culture.

  7. “And the people who edited and re-wrote the bible”

    Great point, Theefrinker and one I forget to bring up frequently in these discussions. Each version of the Bible is full of issues and politics of the day and is a guide to what a group of people were trying to control.

  8. charliebucket says:

    you guys (larry, theefrinker) it really is no use trying to reason with ‘religious’ people. I mean, I am not suggesting not to post, I am just lamenting that it does not matter what we say, a “true believer” will never allow any point of view but his religious one. The Bible cannot be wrong or questioned. I guess it boils down to 2 types of people, people of reason and people of literal dogma (for lack of a better word). And, people of reason can be people of faith(like me) but people of literal dogma cannot be people of reason. if that makes sense……

  9. Tuddo. FYI, Christians go by the new testament, Jewish people (unless they are Chistian Jews) go by the old testament. Just thought I would clear that up for you:)

  10. Why do Christians quote the Old Testament? Why is the Old Testament a part of The Holy Bible, which is studied by Christians? If the Old Testament is followed by Jews, why is the coming of The Christ talked about (allegedly) in the book “Isaiah”?

    Not so clear, Darlin

    charlie – yeah…..I should really give up, but my religion tells me that I’m responsible for clarifying all of the misrepresented issues of the Fundamentalist dogma. ;)

  11. DavidAnderson says:

    We had the following discussion on the original post by the Lutheran Pastors but never reached a conclusion. Maybe someone hear would like to dialogue as I believe it is quite germane to the topic.

    If you, the reader, and two of your friends are given three paper 6″ rulers and each asked to draw a six-inch square no doubt you could each do it. But what if the squares are all different sizes after you cut them out along the lines that you drew?

    What then? Who’s right and who’s wrong and how do you know?

  12. Darlin, you didn’t have to clear that up for me at all. That’s why all this Leviticus stuff is crazy as support for saying Christians shouldn’t allow secular gay marriage.

    I don’t worship the Bible, anyway, Old or New. It is a guide to help understand the context and history surrounding Christ’s teachings, but literalism only came into fashion recently, based on human teachings, not Christ’s.

    I worship Christ and His teachings. I don’t worship Paul who had a weird sense of Christ’s teachings. Show me where Christ said anything about gay marriage and I’ll go with that.

    He did say divorce was against God’s law, but “true Chrstians” allow others to divorce based on secular law, no matter what they believe about divorce personally. It should be the same for gay marriage.

  13. DavidAnderson, your analogy is lacking some details. The rulers given to each of the participants in your game were developed two to three thousand years ago and handed down from generation to generation. When a ruler broke, a new one was crafted using approximately the same materials and shape, but soon a one-foot ruler in one place was very different in length from the original.

    That actually happened in history, and that is why we have standards and measurement treaties with other countries.

    We don’t have a “standards and measurement” about what Christ said and what part of the Bible is relevant, because some people believe that only the Pope can say, some say that their denomination gets to say, and some sects say that only the individual can decide based on their relatonship with their God. We don’t all use the same translation or even the same books of the Bible much less agree on the same interpretation of what those words mean or what the writers were trying to convey, or even who wrote them.

    Many wars have been fought and counteless lives lost on who gets to define what a “true Christian” is and whose religion is the most powerful.

    In order to keep that from happening in America, our founders came up with the brilliant idea that religion just won’t matter to our secular laws and everyone can believe whatever religion they want to.

    They proclaimed that we will use rational thought and decide based on scientific reasoning to develop laws that will allow each and every person to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, free from having to follow someone else’s religious dogma or interpretations of religious beliefs.

    Laws that restrict freedoms and rights of humans must show that they are counteracting behavior that interferes with others’ abilities to have life, liberty or happiness.

    If anyone can show how allowing gay marriage will keep others from enjoying life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness, then we could have a rational discussion based on merit. Until then, we are just trying to argue who is the best Christian, not who is the best American.

  14. wildcelticrose says:

    believe what you want to believe, follow those beliefs to your heart’s content.

    That is your (and all of our) right.

    But leave other people alone.

    It’s not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

  15. I don’t understand how any religion can be “right”, David, since they are all based on belief.

  16. DavidAnderson says:

    Thank you tuddo and LarryH for responding.

    As to the ruler exercise, tuddo you’ve certainly nailed the problem. When measurements change, we’re not likely to end up square – especially if two of us on the same project are using rulers of different lengths. Therefore we’ve got to come up with an agreed-upon standard that’s not subject to change.

    In this particular instance posed here, the three rulers given to the three participants were all purposefully constructed to be off by an 1/8″ or more that wouldn’t be noticeable until results were compared.

    Then comes the problem.

    Many times when asked to identify the solution, people will say ‘let us try again.’ Same result.

    Finally someone asks for a ‘real ruler’. But what makes a real ruler real?

    Hope you’ll stay engaged with this.

  17. When did we stop teaching Americans that the country is secular and that EVERYONE has freedom of religion?
    Why do christians need the govt to validate their beliefs?

  18. Jerry, Blah,blah,blah. Damn I getting tired of being preached to by people whose Church hid pedophiles and are still doing it. “If we know the truth …..” This war on religion (its in your head) might be because of statements like that condescending one. Your faith is your faith, keep it that way please, and quit getting in our faces about it or the war will really begin.

  19. In our country, we have separation of church and state. If the bible thumpers don’t like it- then that’s their choice. If they want to control the rest of us, they can lump it or leave. Not all believe in the book of fairytales or need imaginary friends. If that floats your bible boat then that’s YOUR personal choice. Not to mention, the majority of our founding fathers were NOT christian so hence we are NOT a christian nation.

  20. The New Testament also teaches Christians to ‘render unto caesar the things that are caesar’s and unto the Lord the things that are the load.

    The US is officially a secular nation.

    Marriage licenses are issued by the state and the state gives all the fiscal and legal rights that come with marriage.

    Same-sex marriage laws will allow same-sex couples to obtain marriage licenses and thus obtain the fiscal and legal rights offered by the secular state.

    And, oh happy, happy, joy, joy – NO church will be forced to perform same-sex marriages, or even accept such couples into the church

  21. GHTaxPayer says:

    Excellent letter, Jerry ! The very reason I left the Lutheran church of Hawaii and became Catholic was that a sect of them were talking about marrying homosexuals! I met with the pastor and showed him the 3-4 places in the bible that teach how sinful and disgusting homosexuality is, but he wouldn’t listen. He said the Hawaii people supported homo marriage. A few years later homo marriage was put to a public vote in Hawaii and it lost by 31 points! FAIL ! Just as in all states that have put it to a public vote, it has gone down in flames!

  22. Way to go Jerry – why use your own brain when you can be told how to think by others. And if those same folks who are telling you how to think routinely cover for pedophile priests, then that just makes them all the more believable.

  23. GHT: Ironic that you’d leave the Lutheran church and turn Catholic because of your distaste for “disgusting and sinful” sexual practices.

    Your pastor wouldn’t listen to your “3 or 4″ homosexuality references in the bible because those references are only found in the Old Testament, and your pastor knew that when Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament laws that you referred him to.

    If you and the letter writer believe in the those Old Testament laws regarding homosexuality then to be faithful to yourself, you’ll need to obey all the laws of the Old Testament, and not pick and choose which of the Old Testament laws to obey, as if your eating at a buffet or salad bar.

    To be faithful to all the laws in the Old Testament you’ll need to eat only animals that chew cud and have divided hoofs, and only creatures of the sea with fins and scales. You’ll need to stone anyone to death who does not believe in your God, and stone your son to death, and your neighbors sons if they’re rebellious. And for goodness sake, don’t lie with another man.

    Either all Old Testament laws are applicable, or none. No salad bar.

  24. BillBrewster says:

    At any given moment of any given day I may not appear to be a true Christian at all. This true, strong language we are putting into Christianity is getting us deeper in the hole. Dying to reach common ground.

  25. “GHTaxPayer says:
    May 23, 2012 at 8:21 pm Excellent letter, Jerry ! The very reason I left the Lutheran church of Hawaii and became Catholic was that a sect of them were talking about marrying homosexuals!”

    Can’t allow homosexuals to be married (as if they want to marry in the Catholic Church anyway) but they sure are good at stonewalling the law to protect pedophilia among their priests.

    Of course, conservatives will tell us that there is no war against women’s health care as well.

  26. I can’t think of a better place to restrict the rights of others than an island in the middle of an ocean.

    I think there is a great novel in the making there

  27. spotted1 says:

    This is why there will be no civil discourse on this issue. No one wants to address the issue in a civil manner.

    If you want to allow a legal civil union, call it marriage, of two individuals then allow it. They are secular laws not religious laws. If you wish to follow religious law, then do so. However, our country is based on secular law and the idea of religious freedom where we all have the right to choose our own religion.

    Maybe we should also allow for areas to start to follow Shia law (spelling?). It seems fair. Allow for everyone to worship, pray, and be led as they wish. That might be interesting to see how it goes…

  28. charliebucket says:

    gay marriage will come down to a supreme court decision ultimately, IMO.

    we should not be “voting” on “rights”….and, I will say once again, that the Bible has no bearing on civil law in the US (nor does the Koran or any other religious book) and even if you quote your Bible passages that you say forbid an act, I can show you where my Bible doesn’t forbid that same act…..so the Bible argument is wrong on 2 counts, at least.

    the courts will decide what civil laws we will have. and they will continue to evolve…

  29. I thought the Constitution was to give all people the same rights, not to take them away like 21 states have.

  30. thenewstribune52 says:

    The Bible also says that wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Should we enforce this by law and throw unsubmissive wives in jail?

  31. GHTaxPayer says:

    MORE EVIDENCE THAT THE WAR ON WOMEN REALLY BEING BROUGHT BY DEMS:

    http://freebeacon.com/senate-dems-betray-lilly/

    When will the libs like LarryH and Theo realize that their Dem leaders are lying to them?

  32. GHTaxPayer says:

    Hey Newstribune52 – Obama has been hosting and sending $$$ to Muslim Brotherhood that severely oppresses women and cuts off their body parts if they show their face or report rape.

    Aren’t you Dems proud of Hussein Obama ?

  33. philichi says:

    Larry
    Because some Catholic priests acted on their Homosexual impulses, you seam to want to persecute the whole church.

    You also want her to promote and accept homosexual marriage. It seems that the Church can’t win with you.

    Perhaps after what the Church has been through, it would be best for them to steer parishioners away from any type of adultery.

  34. GHTaxPayer says:

    And Obama just sent $190 Million to Palestine – which refuses to let women vote.

    Aren’t you Dems proud of Hussein Obama ?

  35. tomwa007 says:

    Aren’t Republicans proud of their Candidate who’s ancestors are proud of their polygamy from Mexico?

  36. When the Church comes clean and turns over all info and the priests then we will quit persecuting the poor understood Church. Its the hiding and obstruction that is the bigger sin for the Church.

  37. SwordofPerseus says:

    Hey GigHarborTaxpayer;

    I have seldom seen anyone who is so passionate about being wrong.

    Do all of us Trib readers a favor, take a long walk on a short pier. Thanks,

    SoP :-P

  38. philichi says:

    SwordofPerseus, your response to GHtaxpayer reads like a hate crime. Shouldn’t you be more tolarent?

  39. philichi says:

    Theo: how do you know that all Homosexual priests have not been outed?

  40. “Obama has been hosting and sending $$$ to Muslim Brotherhood that severely oppresses women and cuts off their body parts if they show their face or report rape.”

    Do any conservatives know how to tell the truth?

  41. “philichi says:
    May 24, 2012 at 11:01 am Theo: how do you know that all Homosexual priests have not been outed?”

    One of the Bishops that disagrees with the Church just publicly said he was told to not name names and was directed to anonymously transfer offenders to another parish without telling said parish about his offenses.

    I would think that anyone who supports the church would be up to date on their stand on this issue, rather than blindly follow.

  42. Oh and Mr. P….no one said the priests were “homosexual”. They are “pedophiles” Big difference.

  43. philichi says:

    “Oh and Mr. P….no one said the priests were “homosexual”. They are “pedophiles” Big difference.”

    Have you really heard of a girl victim?

  44. WOW….I’m amazed at the ignorance.

    Same sex pedophilia is not about sexual orientation. It’s about abuse and control. Priests are allegedly asexual in terms of practice anyway.

    Someone is tragically undereducated on this issue.

    sheesh!

  45. charliebucket says:

    yep larry, right again.

  46. Still a pedophile, not a homosexual, look up the words, these priests did not abuse men or have relations with grown men. Pedophiles would likely be turned off by a grown man.

  47. Phil, That was my point, we may never know, because the Church has lied about and/or hidden all the info they have. Just like any cabal.

  48. Phillichi? The Catholic Church has a less than stellar history with atrocities after atrocities. The church has little to no credibility. It is beyond me why anyone would get behind such an organization.

  49. averageJoseph says:

    Homosexual priests who take advantage of children were born that way.

  50. Heterosexual priests who take advantage of children were born that way and heterosexual parents spawned them.

    Now if someone wants to be serious about a serious subject….

    http://www.tridd.com/docs/answers/Pedophilia.pdf

  51. philichi says:
    May 24, 2012 at 1:06 pm Have you really heard of a girl victim?

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/tom-jackman/priest-sentenced-for-molesting.html

    This took about 10 seconds on BING. I picked this one at random, but there are many more. You have to want to know.

    My earlier statement stands – “I would think that anyone who supports the church would be up to date on their stand on this issue, rather than blindly follow.”

  52. philichi says:

    Larry:
    Why do you make fun of someone’s abnormality? Perhaps you should become more tolerant. Do you approve of some sexual abnormalities but not others? Shouldn’t yoy be less hate filled and more understanding?

  53. averageJoseph says:

    Interesting. Considering the rarity of heterosexual pedophile priests we find one that was born in Kenya. LMAO.

  54. scooter6139 says:

    Average – I didn’t think you accepted the fact that homosexuals were born homosexual. I thought your subscribed to the choice camp. Oh well, glad to see we agree on that at least!

    True Christians know the Bible is just a book like any other. It has many wise things to tell society and people and it also has many ridiculous and stupid things as well (historical context is everything). If you want to follow it then do so but follow ALL of it, not just the parts that fit your feelings of the day. Just like secular law you don’t get to pick the laws you like and only follow those. (Unless you are white and wealthy, then you get to a different set of rules to abide by.)

  55. averageJoseph says:

    Kooky… I was just following the lefts oft repeated claim. I’m glad to see you agree that homo sexual priests were born that way.

  56. Harry_Anslinger says:

    I sense a future Supreme Court decision over the constitutionality over denying same-sex couples the important, completely secular, components of marriage. These components include taxation, home and property, next of kin, insurance, power of attorney, etc…

    If a church decides not to marry same sex couples in their church, on their property, or by their pastor/minister/priest than that is one thing. Other than that it’s all about using religion to stifle the freedom of gay people to be married in a secular ceremony, appply and recieve a marriage license and enjoy the same advantages/disadvantages of heterosexual married couples.

    This is the ‘umpteenth’ time someones submits a letter: “I’m uncomfortable about same-sex marriage and want to use religion to ‘justify’ it. Minus any additional ‘wordiness’ it’s the same letter, different writer, different day.

  57. aJ – do some research

    Myth #2 – Most sexual abuse of boys is perpetrated by homosexual males.

    Pedophiles who molest boys are not expressing a homosexual orientation any more than pedophiles who molest girls are practicing heterosexual behaviors. While many child molesters have gender and/or age preferences, of those who seek out boys, the vast majority are not homosexual. They are pedophiles.

    http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html

  58. stradivari says:

    The Baptist pastor near the end of my street is doing prison time for child molestation.

  59. averageJoseph says:

    Call it what you want B. They aren’t out there molesting girls, for the most part. They are atracted to the same sex… just younger.

  60. averageJoseph says:

    … and they were born that way.

  61. averageJ cannot distinguish between people that harm others and harm society by their actions, so they must be controlled, treated and punished for their criminal behavior and others who just want freedom to live their lives like others who do no ahrm to anyone.

    There are countless human differences. Some people focus on benign differences to discriminate and treat others as subhumans and deny their equal treatment under the laws for no reason except for being different. That is not only unconstitutional, it is a disgusting way to live and to treat each other.

  62. averageJoseph says:

    ? Tudds.

  63. averageJoseph says:

    It’s been hammered home here that people are born with their sexual preference already determined. Does it not imply then that homosexual priests that prefer younger males were as well?

  64. averageJ, Most studies I’ve seen point to a combination of factors, gentics, pre-natal changes in the womb, hormonal changes before puberty and environmental impacts in early childhood all ahving influence on sexual identity. And, sexual identity is different from sexual activity, especially in males.

    A lot of things are genetic, learned at an early age or influenced by hormones that bear no direct relationship with each other. Science has shown that pedophilia really isn’t a sexual identity issue, it is a control and dominance issue and bears little relationship to sexual identity. Convenience and opportunity for exerting control are the keys to who the victims are.

    Before altar “boys” were girls, too, almost all of the victims were male. After there were altar girls, the percentageas became about the same, still a lot more boys, because that is still predominate.

    The point is whatever the behavior is due to, we pass laws and restrict those behaviors if they are harmful to other people and society. Otherwise, we are a country that believes in freedom and equality.

    For example, is schizophrenia inherited, due to hormonal changes or due to factors we still don’t understand? Signs point to all three influences. We used to restrict the rights and outlaw people with schizophrenia from being seen in public or living in society. However, we evolved and realized they have a right to freedom just like anyone else. People can be as “crazy” as they want to be. Until they harm or threaten to harm others or harm themselves, they are treated equally under the law.

    With a basic human right to marry and choose whom to marry, the bar is pretty high for those wanting to restrict freedoms in that area. They must show that such marriages would be harmful and there is a rational reason for society to restrict their freedoms.

  65. sandblower says:

    True Christians would follow the “golden rule” and ignore the rest of the bible.

  66. sandblower says:

    If aj or anyone else thinks there is a homosexual gene or two or three, it explains a lot. Sadly, what it explains is not very appealing.

  67. philichi says:

    tuddo: if you are right about genetics, etc. If there was a pill to take to become Hetrosexual would you support it?

    If therapy worked, would you want it done?

  68. philichi, no, would you take a pill to get rid of your characteristics that cause no harm and cause no harm to others?

    Would red-heads take a pill?

    The only rason gays have any problems is because of people discriminating against them.

    Why create a pill for something that is not wrong or harmful?

  69. penumbrage says:

    philichi

    “tuddo: if you are right about genetics, etc….”

    tuddo is right, millions of our gay folks are ambiguously sexed humans (estimates run as high as 1% of the population) and among them are genetic anomalies like true hermaphrodites, genetic mosaics and even sexes other than XX females and XY males (the most common being XXY males, called Klinefelter’s Syndrome back in the 1930’s before we knew there was a genetic cause).
    Many are due to any of several dozen medical conditions that prevent the fetus from properly developing into what the DNA blueprint called for (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, for instance gives us XY males that look like females and vice versa for Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) and since the effects can be slight or severe they end up somewhere within a whole spectrum of blurred gender in between male and female.
    In addition to gays of choice, environmental factors can give us people so traumatized by abuse that relations with the opposite sex are unthinkable (without decades of therapy, anyway). Who could blame Josef Fritzl’s daughter’s for cringing at the thought of sex with a man or deny them any form of sexual identity or expression that they can manage to salvage out of such an ordeal?

    I have a question for those who see a religious mandate against all gays. When God looks down on a genetic XY male who has been robbed of his appropriate genitals by an accident of birth, do you believe the Architect of DNA and the Designer of human reproduction is fooled into thinking that He sees a woman?

  70. averageJoseph says:

    So, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

  71. shadowsdad says:

    “The person who is certain, and claims divine warrant for his certainty, now belongs to the infancy of our species.” Christopher Hitchens

  72. Apologize if someone already mentioned this, but I have an issue with the first statement.

    “I have yet to hear any one of them give a biblical basis for support of homosexuality, that is from Bible verses. All I’ve heard were opinions that are primarily feelings-based and contingent on self.”

    That may be, but it does not pertain to legal matters.

    There is no requirement to rationalize, defend or otherwise support governmental law with Bible verse.

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