Letters to the Editor

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COLLEGE: Is it time to rein in student loans?

Letter by Lyle Laws, Puyallup on April 6, 2012 at 12:35 pm with 170 Comments »
April 6, 2012 12:35 pm

Unfortunately, when many of the graduating college students walk across the stages as “Pomp and Circumstance” is played this year, along with their diplomas they will also be handed a bill for student loan charges. How much? About $25,000-plus on the average (some much higher). What a way to begin life after college: broke, unemployed and deeply in debt.

How else could young people make it through school? Well, there are several ways, including the G.I. Bill, scholarships and, of course the now somewhat old-fashioned, outdated method of working summers, weekends and part time while attending school, and foregoing things such as smart phones, video games, iPods and other expensive items until being able to work and pay for them.

In addition to the G.I. Bill and working nights and weekends, I was blessed with a wonderful wife who worked and made it possible for me to earn my cap and gown.

At a time when our national debt is over $17 trillion and counting, and credit card spending is rampant, it is alarming to know that student loans, most of them guaranteed by the government, amount to nearly a trillion dollars and that more than of 10 percent of them are delinquent.

America’s financial future is anything but bright.

Leave a comment Comments → 170
  1. A well-educated workforce is our country’s only hope for out-competing all the other emerging economies. If you haven’t noticed, the other emerging economies ensure they fund their universities so admission is free to the students or greatly subsidized. I don’t know when you went to college, but unless you spend your summers as a hedge-fund manager, you’re not making nearly enough to pay for textbooks, tuition, housing. Have you seen the rate of tuition increases in our own state? For most students, college is paid by a mix of parental contribution, small scholarships, student loans AND part-time work.

  2. alindasue says:

    Mr. Laws said, “…and that more than of 10 percent of them are delinquent.”

    They are also one of the few debts that you can’t get rid of through bankruptcy.

    Most students do work weekends, summers, or part time, when they can find work. With the economy the way it has been, those jobs traditionally taken by students have been filled by older workers who couldn’t find jobs elsewhere. Many students qualify for “work study” to pay for tuition but there’s only so many campus jobs available for those who qualify.

    Add to that the rising cost of going to school. Schools facing funding cuts try to recoup their losses by charging higher tuition and fees. My daughter, attending WSU, was hit with over $700 in extra fees this semester for various things like “stadium renovation”.

    This is 2012. Smart phones have come down in price to where they aren’t much more expensive than a regular phone or a basic cell phone. Mp3 players are actually cheap entertainment for students (and an easy Christmas gift to buy for one), a decent Mp3 player costing no more than a transistor radio. Computers and internet are no longer luxuries, but as necessary as textbooks for some of the students’ classes. To forgo owning one is not an option.

    There are many reasons to avoid debt whenever possible. My daughter has been getting by so far on scholarships and grants, as you suggest, and a little bit of help from her parents and fiance. However, scholarships and grants only go so far and not all students are fortunate enough to have parents – or a wife – to support them through school. For those people a loan may make the difference between going to college and not.

  3. Lyle – it was a whole lot cheaper to fund college a few decades ago before tuitions skyrocketed (due in a large part to state legislatures deciding to fund less of the college costs).

  4. Luckilly, when I went to college, I lived in a state that valued college educations and was trying to build an educated work force. The legislature funded over 50% of all college costs in state schools. Believe it or not, it was Texas.

    I did have the GI bill, but I also worked part time, received several grant-in-aids and did everything I had to do to save money. I also ahd a student loan which I paid off in over 12 years.

    The relative cost of a college education has gone up much more than inflation in general, and the costs create a hardship on many poor people. I believe we should keep and even expand guaranteed student loans.

    I also think we need a viable alternative to military service that comes with its own GI bill. We need a Job Corps for non-at-risk young people.

  5. PumainTacoma says:

    I doubt your going to find kids berry picking in Puyallup during the summer anymore or kids working as clerk at Fred Meyers with good wages or having a job when they turn 15 or shopping at second hand thrift stores, all of which my family did during high school and college. We also did not have daddy buy us a Audi or Nissan, we had the old Pinto and Dodge Dart cars that were low on looks but got us around. How many parents can say they don’t spoil their kids to the point of them not wanting to work 30 hour weeks. I see an entitlement generation just look around. HR professionals see kids expecting to be Directors and Executives the day they graduate and expect the title and salary to follow in 5-10 years. Ain’t happening. Suggest all parents teach their kids early how to survive, get a job when you turn 16, save your money, go to community college if you have to and save, save, save. Ipads and iphones are not presumed rights, but then again I blame the parents for the gluttony and wanting the glitz of it all.

  6. cclngthr says:

    When I was in Pierce College, each class was about $75.00 or so plus books. Now, one class at the same school is $245 plus books. That is more than 3 times the previous amount. Graduate classes at PLU during that time was $416 for one 3 credit class. Now, that same graduate class is also more than 3 times the amount people paid from the earlier time.

    However, minimum wage jobs only provide $1675 (or close to that) per month, and employers demand workers use their schedule and be willing to work without benefits. These jobs don’t provide enough money to cover basic living expenses in addition to paying for college expenses since many college students do not live at home.

  7. LornaDoone says:

    The race to the bottom continues

  8. LornaDoone says:

    It’s nice that Lyle’s wife was able to work to get him through college along with his GI Bill. Today, the math doesn’t add up to do that. It takes two incomes to pay the rent and feed yourselves.

  9. alindasue says:

    PumainTacoma said, “I doubt your going to find kids berry picking in Puyallup during the summer anymore or kids working as clerk at Fred Meyers…”

    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there isn’t much berry picking to be done in Puyallup or Fife these days. Kids aren’t working as clerks at age 16 (not 15, too young) as much these days because adults have filled all the positions.

    The Audis, Nissans, and even Cadillacs you see kids driving around these days are the cars that parents can get cheap, just like the Pintos and Darts you drove. Yes, those cars depreciate in value that much.

    Kids don’t look to be directors and managers the day they graduate. What they want is a job, just like the generation before them did.

  10. sandblower says:

    Yet another nonsensical letter from Mr. Laws this time touting the right’s other mantra, the ole’ “bootstraps” bit. Some people don’t even have bootstraps on which to pull.
    Raise income taxes on those who can afford it best, raise taxes on gasoline by about $3 over the next 5 years and get rid of oil, gas and coal tax breaks. Put the military on a diet of about 10%, collect a federal value added tax of 5% on everything sold on the internet when there is no state sales tax. Charge a graduated vehicle weight tax on every vehicle that weighs more than 3000 pounds or has more than 2 sets of lights with comparable brightness of headlights or has a built in phone system.
    Finally, cancel the tax exempt status of all churches.
    Use the revenue to fund healthcare for everyone and education at all grade levels.

  11. Fibonacci says:

    We have tech companies hiring from out of state and out of country because they can’t find qualified people in this state. So by all means Lyle, let’s make it even more difficult to get a college education.

  12. spotted1 says:

    Norsey, those emerging economies you write about do spend significant funds to ensure a well educated workforce and keep costs low to the students. What you forget is that not everyone goes to school in those countries.

    In many countries, if you don’t make the educational cut, you don’t go on to college, plain and simple. Here in the United States, anyone can go to college. And anyone can pay the tuition costs. And anyone can rack up huge amounts of debt. And anyone can be anything they want…including a student that doesn’t take their education seriously. College is not for everyone. It is only for those who truly want to work for it and move ahead. Not sit in another several years of education and get nothing out of it.

    As cclngthr states, though his information is dated, Pierce is a whole lot less expensive than the 4 year schools.

  13. SandHills says:

    As well as inflated grades and courses that have no applicability in the work place….even with a diploma in-hand many college grads have not been equipped to be competitive in the world economy. Besides not having the academic background, many have not been raised in a culture where hard work comes first and the benefits of hard workcome later. The babyboomers may have lived in a me first, I want it now, world, but that has gone the way of dial-up internet.

    All these college grads today are facing a tougher world – the sooner they get a grip on this reality the better.

    But this is just one thread unravelling in our society – when these young graduates don’t have jobs that pay them well enough to pay off all those loans, just where do all us older folks think Medicaid/medicare or social security benefits are going to come from? As more and more start drawing retirement benefits, what happens when less and less workers are paying into the system that supports those benefits ( and some aspects of government and labor union pension plans may turn out to be like a pyramid scam).

  14. One guaranteed way to ensure we are not competitive economically is to make it harder for our kids to get an education. Lyle you really should stick to something you know.

  15. Historically the next step will be to outsource our military.

  16. itwasntmethistime says:

    I don’t mind sounding like a “bootstrapper,” but when I went to college I shared a bedroom with my roommate and we didn’t own a TV. We drank lots of coffee that we made at home with our Mr. Coffee maker and we drank beer at home with friends instead of hitting the bars. I never went on a vacation over spring break. My standard of living as a college student was a LOT lower than the students I know today.

    Alindasue, it’s the monthly service plan that makes a smartphone so much more expensive than a regular cell phone. You can get unlimited talk, text and web for a regular cell phone for $50 per month (plus taxes) but a smartphone needs a data package, which drives the bill up to about $115 per month. The cell phone companies lead people to believe they need a smartphone to access the web, but it isn’t true.

  17. cclngthr says:

    spotted1,
    Actually, no, that $245 class is a current one. I am going to take a course on Aspergers Syndrome in June and the cost is what I stated (at Pierce College). The earlier figure was what came from a receipt I still have from the school when I attended there before transferring to PLU.

  18. cclngthr says:

    itwasntmethistime,
    I pay $50.00 a month for unlimited text/talk/data and my phone is a smart/android phone.

  19. concernedtacoma7 says:

    And the left continues their neverending quest for more free stuff. After healthcare it is education. They never state who will pay for this with the exception of ‘someone else’, ‘some evil rich guy’ or ‘some rich company’.

    No pride or sense of individual responsibility. Where is the motive to succeed, innovate, etc. if we hand everyone everything financed by China? You should feel ashamed.

    Wake up people, we now routinely talk about our deficit in trillions. No more hand outs. Back to what our country was founded on, individual responsibility.

  20. Right off the top the first letter is one of “it should be free”. Free you say? In case you haven’t noticed, nothing is “free”. We signed our kid up under the GET program when he was seven years old and paid each month for ten years until it was paid for. That gives him 400 units or the equivalent of four years tuition. We will also pay for his books and upkeep to get him through the last two years of school. The first two was in community college where he received his Associates degree. If we could do it, most other families could as well. It meant not going out to dinner and cutting back on many other things. When he graduates in two more years, he will owe nothing. Stop your whining and complaining and do the right thing. Any responsible parent should ensure that their kids start life free and clear and not beholding to the banks. If you can’t afford college, there’s still a need for mechanics, plumbers, truck drivers, heavy equipment operators,sales clerks, military etc,etc.

  21. alindasue says:

    itwasntmethistime said, “My standard of living as a college student was a LOT lower than the students I know today.”

    Your standard of living as a college student sounds exactly like the students I know today, with the exception of a few I know who live at home with their parents. My oldest daughter shares a student apartment in Pullman with three other girls. They also do not have a TV. She accesses internet on the computer her fiance bought her using the WiFi hotspots on campus.

    She doesn’t drink alcohol – and beer would be too expensive anyhow even if she did. “Going out” means using her student ID to ride a bus to Walmart for grocery shopping. Also, she spent spring break studying for upcoming tests.

    People from the older generation are not the only ones with “bootstraps”.

  22. Lyle seems to overlook the fact that he made it through school on the tax payers’ dime through the GI bill and by his wife financially supporting him. Isn’t that the entitlement pot calling the kettle black? I can say this because I worked my way through school doing classes and a job both part time, paid my own rent and bills and in the end I took out student loans to finish. (Which I paid back.) I didn’t have any help from the tax payers nor did I have a sugar daddy to put me through. But I fully acknowledge today, it would be near impossible to do it on my own like I did 25 years ago. Kids have it much harder today because wages have not kept up with real estate, groceries and tuition hikes.

  23. alindasue says:

    frosty said, “If you can’t afford college, there’s still a need for mechanics, plumbers, truck drivers…”

    Mechanics, plumber, and truck drivers are all skilled jobs that require training. Training costs money, starting at $4-5,000 for commercial truck driver training.

  24. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Do kids have it so much harder today? Can someone quantify that? Groceries, rent, transportation in terms of hourly wages? Serious question.

    Alindasue- taking out a loan or getting help from family for 4-5k is nothing like a 4 year resident degree. Even today it would not be very hard.

    And Frida, you do ‘earn’ that GI Bill, and pre-911 had to give up part of your wages to qualify.

  25. bobcat1a says:

    Let’s do cut out loans for college and see what will happen. Either tuition and fees will come down dramatically…or colleges will downsize or go out of business. One of those two things will cost a lot of money from somewhere and the other…will cost a lot of money from somewhere. The likelihood is that we will have a lot of online colleges and a few bastions of wealth and privilege where all the graduates get great jobs. Oh yeah, and we will hire a LOT more immigrants for the regular jobs that require a specialized education.

  26. cclngthr says:

    I agree with bobcat. If we eliminate student loan programs and grants; colleges would downsize or be out of business very quickly.

    As Alinda said, plumbers, mechanics and truck drivers require additional training to do that job correctly. In order to get the license to do that job, the person must posess certain skills to pass the test. This costs money.

    Even online colleges require tuition and book fees. They are not necessarily cheaper than regular college classes.

  27. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Come on, online classes are not cheaper?

    And why shouldn’t people have to pay to get the skills for an occupation like plumbing, trucking, etc? It is a few grand. Save up and take some personal responsibility.

  28. Frankenchrist says:

    Conservatives hate education because they are uneducated themselves.

    The GOP needs more stupid people in their ranks if they want to prosecute the Republican War on Women.

  29. surething says:

    Lyle, why don’t you just ask for a job at TNT, you write on here ALL the time. You are hit and miss, but miss for the most part.

    Seriously, you are on here enough to get paid for it. I am sure it takes quite a bit to pay the power to your basement.

  30. “And the left continues their neverending quest for more free stuff.”

    Please keep repeating that lie, it’s working soooo well for you rightists.

  31. The right hates education because they know the more educated a person is the less likely they will be conservative or vote for a republican.
    Thats one of the reasons they cut education funding first and do all they can to suppress the vote of students.

  32. truthbusterguy says:

    Most of our kids can’t qualify for college inthe first place. 46% can’t read or do simple math when they graduate from high school. Why waste money to send them to college. Make them stay in high school until they are 25 it that what it takes for union run government schools to teach these kids.

    obama and the democrats will like this because it will keep them out of the workforce and lower unemployement percentages.

  33. “My standard of living as a college student was a LOT lower than the students I know today.”

    Perhaps – there are some students who have been given all sorts of things from their parents, enough to justify calling them the “Entitlement Generation” – but it really depends upon which students and which college campus you are visiting (or like me, working at)

    Most of the students I work with live in dive apartments with several roommates, drive really crappy cars with bad mufflers and rusty bodies, and scrap to get by. Recently the Associate Dean told me we could pay the students for a project I led through an Internship program – but it turns out that very few of the 50 students are eligible because they are already working the maximum 20 hours/week through the Internship programs for other Departments.

    You know, when I was young I had to walk a half mile to school through snow drifts, carrying a bag lunch wearing hand-me-down clothes……You old farts complaining about the newest generation not having it as tough as you are just a bunch of stereotypes.

  34. And, every semester many of my students (some who are raising children) are “disappeared” from the enrollment lists because there is some SNAFU with their financial aid and/or loans – without which they cannot pay for their tuition because their jobs barely cover their living costs.

  35. Thank you Lyle for letting us know just how great you are and how ignorant we all have been. Please tell us more. We wanna be like you.

  36. Concerned? My point regarding the GI bill is that it doesn’t matter if you EARN it, its a perk, and it is TAX PAYER monies. That is help. Its an incentive. And yes, kids have it harder today. Given the same circumstances that I had (many years ago) living at home was not an option and I had to work very hard with little to no help until my last year of college. (Student Loan) A kid would not be able to pay rent, support themselves and pay for school tuition/ books ALL on their own like I did my first four years of college. (Took a little longer.) And it wasn’t easy then either! If it weren’t for my waitressing job and that “free meal”, I would have gone without food many times. Do the math.

  37. I earned my Bachelors on the GI Bill, a work-study program, and any other means I could find to bring in support for my family while I bettered myself. This was an alternative to unemployment during that OTHER “worst crisis since the great depression”! Haa!

    Never once did I take a penny in student loans. I went year round and finished in three and a half years, and in that time added two kids to my family.

    Its called doing what you have to do to get ahead.

  38. cadana1961 says:

    Step back and consider the headline of this topic … “Is it time to rein in College Loans?” Actually, we should be discussing this, “Is it time to rein in College Costs?” Bottom line, college is expensive and is rolling out of control … There used to be a time that summer jobs could cover the costs, but those days are long gone … Most kids these days can’t afford it, much less have the luxury to even dream about going … It (going to college, gaining an college education) is simply not something that is advocated beyond the school hallways/classrooms … Most Parents are too busy working jobs to make ends meet, that the additional cost of college is simply out of reach … BFD if you went to college w/o never taking out any loans … You are one of the few who can ever say that, and considering the costs of college, the residual costs, lving costs, etc, I doubt it’s really true … I wish every kid had a chance to go to a good college …

  39. “Never once did I take a penny in student loans.”

    So what? You took plenty in evil Govt money, at least a loan you have to pay back.

  40. in that time added two kids to my family.

    Its called doing what you have to do to get ahead.

    You got paid for adding two kids to your family?

    :-)

  41. averageJoseph says:

    In case a few of you are clueless (and you are), there actually is a requisit to receiving the GI bill. It’s called serving your country. How well you do during your service and how long you serve determines your benefit. There is another component (at least when I served). The enlistee has to contribute to their own benefit while in the service. My portion was $1200. So I spent 4 years in a combat MOS, scored above 90% in all my SQTs, and paid $1200 to receive my $20,000.

    A far cry, Frida, from getting it free.

  42. sevenstrokeroll says:

    Classic conservative thinking. Knee jerk, short sighted and banal. Similar to Rick Santorums epic fail on education where he called Obama a “snob” because he pushed education for all. Then in the following week he talked about having three kids in college. Do as I say, not as I do? Education should be readily available to all that want some and it would behove the Government to assist as much as possible. I think the real problem Republicans have with this is that an educated population is scary to them and are generally a more difficult group to manipulate.

  43. spotted1 says:

    As I guess I fall into the “dumb, uneducated conservative” category, I will bite. Why should education be free for everyone?

    How much of the education should be “free”? At what level do you stop providing free education? Will there be any requirements to maintain the free education or can I just spend years in college? Who is going to pay for this “free” perk and how are you going to do it? More new taxes? Will the new education only be for college? What about trade schools?

    I guess I am just a dumb ole right wing republican cause I don’t get it. You want an educated population and want to provide it for free. The flip side of that is that there are many people simply not taking advantage of the education that they have now. 13 years of free education is being ignored and poorly used by those who could best use it to move ahead in life.

    How about you put a few easy qualifications on it. Pass the MSP. Graduate on time. The top 10% go to the top colleges and universities. The next 10 – 20% go to lower level schools. Others go to tech or trade schools. Everyone else does get to continue on for free. It would get really easy to weed out those who weren’t serious about their education. But, some left-wing liberal would probably whine about it not being “fair” that some slug doesn’t get the same opportunity. Fair does not mean equal…

  44. aislander says:

    What we are seeing in higher ed is inflation–too many dollars (yes: too many) chasing too few goods. If we treated education (and health care) as goods rather than as rights we would have more of both and they would be cheaper–as goods always are in a competitive marketplace…

  45. Interesting – individuals must pay their own way, but supposedly profitable corporations deserve corporate welfare.

    For those who should know better our Constitution begins WE THE PEOPLE.

    aJoe – when I was in all we had to do was survive Vietnam.
    I got 5 years of college with no contribution.

    Spotted – here’s a free history lesson for you. One of the first bills passed by the First Congress under our Constitution was to reaffirm the Northwest Ordinance passed by Congress under the Articles of Federation which reserved one section in each township for the sole support of a free school.

    To paraphrase a wise teacher – Good taking tests is not the same as being able to use you knowledge.

    Fair does not mean equal – Wait till some 1%ers son or daughter can’t get into an Ive League School because they did not score will on the MSP.

    Aislander – the problem is that we are treating healthcare and higher education has goods and the providers chose exorbitant profits over service

  46. No BeerBoy…I didnt get paid for having kids…They came along while I was collecting that “free” Government money that “Kluwerloser” was worried about. You know, I rather wish that little liberal hippie twit would suggest that “evil Govt money” comment to my face. But then I’d get in more trouble than he’s worth. Haa

  47. Sevenstrokeroll suggests, “I think the real problem Republicans have with this is that an educated population is scary to them and are generally a more difficult group to manipulate.”

    Typical Liberal manure! Sheesh you people love to spread it don’t you.

    Interesting that one would discover among Conservatives, one will find an extraordinarily high percentage of higher education among their ranks. Much different of course from the typical psuedo-intellectual, Volvo driving, Protest encampment supporting, radical cause promoting, Free handout entitlement begging Liberal.

  48. AverageJoseph, dont waste your time. LiberalLunatics like “Frida” and “Kluwer” wouldnt have a clue.

    The rest of us can rest easy in full knowledge that neither of them could make the cut to earn that GI Bill.

    My guess is that neither of them have done much with their lives. Just my opinion of course ;)

  49. I have to get out of this screwy Liberal Cesspool/Peoples Socialist Republic of Western Washington, and soon!

    I believe I am getting a case of PSTD at the thought of growing old in this place, and finding myself in a nursing home full of geriatric Liberal hippies!

  50. Dave98373 says:

    “I have to get out of this screwy Liberal Cesspool/Peoples Socialist Republic of Western Washington, and soon!”

    Don’t let haters and the uneducated ruin your day. This is free entertainment! Be thankful you and your children (if you have any) are not so gullible as so many are here.

  51. LornaDoone says:

    “And the left continues their neverending quest for more free stuff. After healthcare it is education.”

    Only a complete fool would equate a student loan with “free” – or someone who has no education.

  52. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Lardnos, I know you have heard the #OWS crowd (and other left wing clowns) demanding free college.

    And since govt took over the student loan system, we are all subsidizing a generation of lib art students. Those loans cost the taxpayer money.

    You have taken a little break from posting since making a fool of yourself in the Martin case…

  53. “If we treated education (and health care) as goods rather than as rights we would have more of both and they would be cheaper”

    Coming from the far right who is wrong about everything, that is FUNNY!

  54. “I have to get out of this screwy Liberal Cesspool/Peoples Socialist Republic of Western Washington, and soon!”

    You need help packing?
    Say the word and I’ll have 200 teamsters on your door step in less than 4 hours.

  55. “Just my opinion of course”

    And like everything else you are wrong.

  56. “Interesting – individuals must pay their own way, but supposedly profitable corporations deserve corporate welfare.”

    Modern fascism, from the right.

  57. hansgruber says:

    Pretty sad story here:
    October 21, 2011

    With the nation’s student-loan debt climbing toward $1 trillion, it’s taking many young people longer than ever to pay off their loans. Two-thirds of college students now graduate with debt, owing an average of $24,000. But some borrow far more and find this debt influencing major life decisions long after graduation.

    “I was very naive, and I realize that now,” says Stephanie Iachini, of Altoona, Pa. She was the first in her family to go to college and financed it herself. “Basically I was just signing papers because the education part meant a lot to me.”

    Between her undergraduate degree and law school — both at private institutions — Iachini owes about $160,000. She’s now 31, and, only half-jokingly, says she’s grateful her debt didn’t scare away her husband when they were dating.

    “He realized what he was taking on,” she says, “but I don’t think he realized the long-term impact, that this wasn’t just something that we could pay off in three years and be done with it.”

    “About a third of bachelor degree recipients this year have enough debt to have a 20-year or longer repayment plan,” says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of fastweb.com and FinAid.org, leading Web sites about paying for college.
    http://www.npr.org/2011/10/21/141564239/school-debt-a-long-term-burden-for-many-graduates

  58. Kluwer says in typical pathetic fashion, “You need help packing? Say the word and I’ll have 200 teamsters on your door step in less than 4 hours.”

    How could we not guess that LiberalLunaticKluwer had anything to do with a union. Sorry to break this to you LeftWingnutLoser, but the last thing I’d do is drag in a bunch of Teamsters on a project of ANY kind. I prefer to actually see the job done efficiently without a silly union in the way.

    Enjoy yourself Sonny.

  59. Dave says, “Be thankful you and your children (if you have any) are not so gullible as so many are here.”

    Thats half the trouble Dave, so, so many ARE gullible. They fall for every warm fuzzy, socialist lie the liberal crowd waves like a pathetic banner.

    The left has systematically destroyed this once great nation in just a few short decades, and the gullible are who is enabling them to do so.

  60. Dave, if the liberal crowd continues its destructive path, the United States of America will be on an equal playing field with France or Romania in a few short years. Exactly what THEY want.

  61. test

  62. Kluwer writes, “test”…….Here is your grade…”F” :D

  63. Lyle-What’s the difference between a loan to start a business and a loan to get a good education? The purpose of your letter is to marginalize those who do not have access to higher education for economic reasons. Student loans are a sound investment. Unless you have never taken out a loan for any reason how can you stand in judgement over a loan for an otherwise unattainable education?

  64. aislander says:

    If we treated higher ed and health care as goods, xring (or even health insurance as a good), the consumer of those goods would have some choice with respect to price and the constitution of those things. That way his decisions would have an effect on the market.

    The trouble with the extremely distorted markets (so distorted that there really <aren't markets) in health care, health insurance, and higher education, is that the decisions the consumers make are irrelevant. The idea is to make it so those choices DO matter…

  65. LornaDoone says:

    “You have taken a little break from posting since making a fool of yourself in the Martin case…”

    Nope. I have a life outside this forum. Try it. I get bored watching the conservatives pull out the same spin day in and day out.

    I’m sorry I made a fool of myself wanting a suspect in a killing to be arrested. I guess I just don’t understand Florida law.

    Meanwhile, anyone that equates student loans (the topic of this thread) to “free education”, probably didn’t get an education.

  66. took14theteam says:

    Nope. I have a life outside this forum.

    Says the man who posts 24/7.

    ::::::::::LMAO::::::::::

  67. Lyles basic idea is that college is too expensive so let’s cut student loans so only the rich can attend. Typical conservative ‘the cart is broken, let’s shoot the horse to fix the cart’ thinking.

    Dcr – I to earned by Bachelors on the GI Bill (Vietnam Era), neither my wife nor I had help from our families, and we chose to delay having children till after we graduated and had permanent jobs.

    That ‘typical liberal manure’ was endorsed by no less that Fox Spews and Karl Rove.

    DRC – so you think the left is responsible for sending our factories and jobs overseas so the 1%ers can horde more money?

    Spotted – a quick trip to a dictionary will show you that an ‘uneducated’ person is not necessarily ‘dumb’, nor is a ‘educated’ person necessarily ‘wise’ or ‘smart’.

    Hans – maybe if so many American factories and jobs had not been sent overseas there would be jobs available here so the loans could be paid back.

    Aislander – We are treating higher ed and health insurance as goods but there is no free market competition because the providers hold local monopolies forcing consumers to pay what the provider wants.

    Oil/gas and health insurance companies have divided the country in to regions where only certain companies are allowed to offer their goods.

    State schools usually charge different tuitions for state resident and non-resident students. For example – WSU 2011/12 tuition, state resident $9,886, non state resident $21,164 per year.

  68. took14theteam says:

    And about you being a fool, you said it.

    We all want people suspected of murder to be arrested. However, you provided the majority of comments on that thread telling everyone reading here that you KNEW EXACTLY what happened down there. It turns out the media did selective editing to create a situation and you bought it instead of waiting until all the facts were in and laid out following our justice process.

    Nice job.

  69. treating higher ed as goods leads to fraud (links and quotes provided on the private higher ed thread).

  70. LornaDoone says:

    Obviously not 24/7 – ask CT7, he’s keeping track.

  71. LornaDoone says:

    “It turns out the media did selective editing to create a situation”

    I didn’t want to bring up Malkin’s phoney picture of the kid.

  72. concernedtacoma7 says:

    And she admitted it was a mistake (something you are never man enough to do).

    Either way the picture she showed looked a like more like TM at the time of his death then the ones from years ago.

  73. LornaDoone says:

    It’s really sad that someone can hate a dead kid so much that they’ll do anything to justify his death.

  74. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Back to the topic at hand. Are we supposed to feel bad for the debt incurred by college students? The vast majority start at 18 years old. They can vote, marry, procreate, fight or nation’s wars, etc. They are not responsible for the funding of their own education, of understanding the contract they are entering into? They can go to a community college or state school for a reasonable price. They can study hard and get a scholarship. They can join the service.

  75. Xring adds, “Dcr – I to earned by Bachelors on the GI Bill (Vietnam Era), neither my wife nor I had help from our families, and we chose to delay having children till after we graduated and had permanent jobs.”

    We have something in common then xring, dont we. Good for you on planning your kids….In our case, well stuff happens huh, and I’m darn glad they came along. Wouldnt have done a single thing to make our life more convenient at the time.

    Was it a challenge? Darn right it was?

    Was it a challenge overcome? Darn right it was.

    Was it worth it? Yes, not in any great financial way, I stuffed my framed degree in the basement (figuratively) when I discovered REAL money didnt require a degree! But the knowledge and growth that comes from knowing you DID it made it all worthwhile.

    Thanks for wondering ;)

  76. Concernedtacoma says, “Are we supposed to feel bad for the debt incurred by college students? The vast majority start at 18 years old. They can vote, marry, procreate, fight or nation’s wars, etc. They are not responsible for the funding of their own education, of understanding the contract they are entering into? They can go to a community college or state school for a reasonable price. They can study hard and get a scholarship. They can join the service.”

    I agree with your thoughts. Nothing free about education, and no one said it was an easy handout (except maybe the freebie liberals!). There are ways they can do it. I did without a penny of student loans.

  77. ItalianSpring says:

    Stop loaning money to people who don’t make any.

  78. I don’t understand why some think that all should serve in the military…and that that should be the one method (besides having wealthy parents) of being able to afford college.

    Some b.s. assumptions that are common to the letter and many of the responses:
    1) That nothing has changed in the last 3 decades – tuition has skyrocketed, college is far less affordable.
    2) That students who take student loans aren’t working while in college.
    3) That the nation has no legitimate reason for encouraging higher education through grants and loans.

  79. Beerboy? Funny too that many of the same posters who are for less government and against “socialism” are the same ones who tout that all should serve in the military.

  80. “Funny too that many of the same posters who are for less government and against “socialism” are the same ones who tout that all should serve in the military.”

    Ironic isn’t it?
    It does show they really have no clue what so ever about ‘socialism’, what it is, how it works, and where it can be found.

    But then they blindly vote for the party that has open disdain for education, so it’s no real surprise.

  81. Funny thing about a college education. (I think even Beerboy might agree with this) MOST people who finish college, unless they go for the advanced training in a particular profession, rarely actually USE their education. For many its just an extension of high school.

    And as I read these comments, I have to chime in on this post, which quite accurately sums up the entire basis for the “greatest economic disaster since the great depression”(which of course is another liberal lie!) …..Italian Spring says, “Stop loaning money to people who don’t make any”. ….. BINGO!!! There is the exact reason for all those foreclosures. No one held a gun to anyone’s head, no one forced all those people to sign a mortgage for a ridiculously inflated $400,000 on a house that was worth $150,000. The market was sure to crumble on that and it did, and those irresponsible CONSUMERS who signed a loan for something they could not afford are to blame. ONLY them. No politician whether it be an R or a D can take the blame for that. The idiotic Liberals of course will make sure its all the last Administrations fault. We all know the thing these days is to blame everyone else for everything in true leftist fashion. Sad thing is people believe that horsepucky!

    Ahh, and just for kicks, I’ll make the observation on kluwer and fridas bellyaching about serving this country (we all know they expect the country to serve THEM!) They love to put it down, but those of us who know, know neither of them could cut it.

  82. A college education if nothing else is a check box on a job application. Many employers will not consider less than a college educated applicant. Because a college graduate decides to become a truck driver doesn’t diminish the value of that four year degree. People borrow for lesser reasons than further education. I applaud anyone who takes this risk to better themselves especially in this tough economy. It’s not easy for someone with a college degree but it’s much harder for someone without one.

    Off topic: The mortgage meltdown was fueled by lenders who convinced the public that ARM’s were a sure way to the American dream of home ownership. No one predicted the meltdown but it seems to some that we should have all seen it coming, proving that hindsight is 20/20.

  83. LornaDoone says:

    The “volunteer military” marches on. Wealthy families will not have to enlist their kids to fight the fascist (check the definition) wars for corporations because they have enough money to go to school.

    Meanwhile, we have allowed a system to prosper that requires a $10,000 minimum education to get a $10 per hour job.

    We do hate young people don’t we?

  84. LornaDoone says:

    “Ahh, and just for kicks, I’ll make the observation on kluwer and fridas bellyaching about serving this country (we all know they expect the country to serve THEM!) They love to put it down, but those of us who know, know neither of them could cut it.”

    And I’ll bet my money that Dcr didn’t serve in a war zone. This is typical behavior of military war heros whose job it was to polish a chair with their posterior.

    How does someone “cut it” in the military when they don’t serve in combat? Nod your head alot.

    You have to love the ones that allegedly “served their country”, but hate the first amendment.

  85. “Ahh, and just for kicks, I’ll make the observation on kluwer and fridas bellyaching about serving this country”

    Well now, not only are you making personal attacks you have to make stuff up in order to do it, how very republican/conservative of you.

    No one “bellyached” about severing and then you have to lie about whether others did or didn’t serve in the military.
    You know nothing of me or frida and anything and everything you say about others is your opinion and nothing more.

  86. Higher education is supposed to be where one is trained in higher level critical thinking, reading and writing skills. The assumption used to be fairly safely made that holder of a college degree had a solid Liberal Arts education across all disciplines as the core (or breadth) requirements and could conduct research, make connections across that superficially disconnected information and communicate that synthesized thesis through the written word. While dcr is correct that many, if not most, college grads don’t end up in their declared major field – the training received in college is still, theoretically, of importance to higher level functioning on the job.

    But then…the urge towards providing equal opportunity and the requirement for colleges to increase their enrollments led to lowered standards (first ushered in by offering remedial courses for sports’ recruits). The “business model” of academia rewards larger and larger classes (first large lecture halls – now web-based courses) that make it very difficult for all but the most dedicated professors to cut out writing assignments in favor of mindless true-false and multiple guess quizzes (I still require multiple writings and essay exams in all of my lecture-based courses).

    With more and more college graduates, the minimum standard for many jobs has risen from high school diploma to undergraduate degree.

    I think the genie has left the bottle but would much prefer if more post-high school training be trade school and/or junior college AA degree. Not everyone is capable of, nor requires, the type of training that higher education should be.

  87. Dcr,
    Don’t confuse education and training.

    Education gives one the knowledge to learn and to be an informed citizen.

    Training is what one needs to get, keep, and advance in a career.

    Loans are not a gift – they are an investment. College graduates with a bachelor’s degree earns about $66,500 per year while high school grad earns $37,300.

    The reason so many homeowners lost their homes was they lost their jobs first (usually because the job was sent overseas).

    “Ask NOT what your country can do for you; ask what YOU can do for your country”

    LornaDoone – “rich avoiding military service”
    When the sons of the rich don’t serve, it is easier to start wars and to hire foreign mercenaries to man and run the military.

  88. Pacman33 says:

    “We can’t just keep subsidizing skyrocketing tuition; we’ll run out of money.”
    ~ Barrack Obama at SOTU 1/24/12

    Good grief Lyle, contain your Right-Wing “Extremism”. By reading these post from the lefties, I take it Economic Studies are exempt from the government funding that is the root of the problem in the first place.
    As Dcr628 began to touch on, this is same scenario as the housing/mortgage crisis. I can’t help myself picturing a whack-job leftist with a butter knife in a toaster ….. “Ouch! That hurt, again. Just like the last time. I think this time it … Ouch!”

    Same as the absurd ‘Affordable Housing’ policies, it’s the measures taken by the government that are necessary that manipulate and distort the market. To make good on their promise, reckless meddling is required, sending waves though the system with unintended effects.
    Hence ….. Government-Backed Student Loans.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/bennett-college-costs/index.html?iref=obnetwork

  89. Pacman33 says:

    ‘Slow’ Joe Biden is even privy to this radical neo-con view:

    Student: “By manipulating variables in the free market and giving out government subsidies that maybe is partially responsible for rising tuition costs.”

    Biden: “By the way, government subsidies have impacted upon rising tuition costs.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CGZwgmn0hg

  90. commoncents says:

    left a little bit out of that quote didn’t you Pacman?

    Biden: By the way, government subsidies have impacted upon rising tuition costs. It’s a conundrum here. But if we went the rate your view of the free market route what we would have done is we would have not of done that. We would not have increased pell grants, for example.
    And there would be 9 million fewer students in college today.

    And there would be hundreds of thousands and millions of students who would not be in college who don’t get Pell grants because there was no ability for them to borrow money through Perkins loans and/or have the tax deduction.

    So you are right, in a pure free-market the college tuition would have to be lower because there would be fewer people going to school, they wouldn’t have as much coming in. But the end result is we would probably have — we go for the better part, half a generation, of going 16th in the world maybe down to 20th in the world.”

    Now suddenly another quote comes to mind.

    Inigo Montoya “…I do not think that means what you think it means.”

  91. commoncents says:

    perhaps we should think about removing “for profits” from the approved list of colleges and universities. Currently they serve only 6% of pell grant students but are receiving 20% of the funding and do so without providing much in academic return (ie they ain’t no Harvards).

  92. Dcr628, I share your fears of ending up in a managed care facility surrounded by a bunch of whining sour-faced liberals as company. The one redeeming thought is that I wouuldn’t be there for very long, I’d soon be separated from them for their safety.

  93. LornaDoone says:

    ““We can’t just keep subsidizing skyrocketing tuition; we’ll run out of money.”
    ~ Barrack Obama at SOTU 1/24/12″

    I’m betting that this quote was edited for manipulation as well, commoncents

    “managed care” – an insurance company term.

  94. LornaDoone says:

    “We can’t just keep subsidizing skyrocketing tuition; we’ll run out of money,” he said in the State of the Union, calling college attendance and affordability an “economic imperative”.

    If you can’t stop tuition from going up, the funding you get from taxpayers will go down,” Obama said.

    Interesting how the meaning changes when you edit out part of the text.

  95. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Interesting how you opened your trap then googled the quote.

  96. anotherID2remember says:

    Some of the blame for this latest “financial melt down” needs to be put on the institutions of higher learning. If they are willing to help a student go into debt to get a really “fun/interesting” degree in “middle eastern children’s literature of the 1400s” then they should bear some of the burden if that graduate is not employable.

    If you sold cars that did not run wouldn’t you want the car maker to bear some of the responsibility for the money wasted on their cars?

    How many Colleges are selling degrees that cost 2-3 times the annual earnings of a person working in that field?

    Simple solution: If only 70% of graduates in your area of study are able to find work in that field then the University is on the hook for 30% of your student debt. Problem solved.

    Think about it. How many anthropology majors does the world need and how many are “sold” at local schools?

    Sorry in advance if that example hit home.

  97. rockers1 says:

    To balance the state budget lawmakers have reducted funding for higher education. This has put more of the cost of college education on students and their families. The State of Washington must come back to the table and find a way to fund higher education! Universities cannot continue to raise tution, elimating academic programs which increases class sizes. They are reducing staff and cutting student support. We must get our children ready for the high demand jobs in our state. We must stop bring in people from other states to fill our high demand jobs! Higher education is the key to our recovery! Check out my website at:

    http://www.dixonmcreynolds.com

  98. concernedtacoma7 says:

    More of the cost of college on students and their families? Who should pay?

    Pathetic. More freebies so students can study art history without the personal responsibility.

    Some part of the state and federal govt’s are broke is lost on the left.

  99. LornaDoone tries SO hard with, “I’ll bet my money that Dcr didn’t serve in a war zone. This is typical behavior of military war heros whose job it was to polish a chair with their posterior. How does someone “cut it” in the military when they don’t serve in combat? Nod your head alot.”

    Clearly LornaDoone your ignorance shows. There are MILLIONS of veterans who have served this country without serving in a “war zone” and for you to make such an idiotic comment is an insult to all of them.

    No I did NOT serve in a “war zone”, never claimed to. Those who would remind me of the moron I met a couple years back who wore a leather motorcycle jacket with “Vietnam Veteran 1975-1978″ emblazoned across the back! Who the hell was he fooling! There was no Vietnam War the United States was involved in during those years, and in fact there was no war for Vietnam after April 1975!! I have a disgust for those posers on the same level as the hippie donkeys I endured right here in our own streets because I VOLUNTEERED to serve at a time when it was VERY unpopular to do so. And yes I’ll make the assumption about Kluwer and Frida, and add you, Lorna, to that list.

    Your silly, ignorant comment reminds me of the screwball retired Reservist who I heard once say that THEY were a REAL veteran because they retired after 20 years of weekend duty, which according to them was the ONLY way to reach veteran status! Haa! I guess they were more of a veteran than a close relative of mine who survived three helicopters shot out from under him in Vietnam who only served 6 years! Or an uncle who fought his way across the Pacific as a Marine in World War Two and later in Korea who only served 12 years! Of course I wont honor you with a laundry list of my military accomplishments OUTSIDE a war zone, simply because to do so would in my opinion, tarnish them with such triviality.

    Yes LornaDoone your stupid remarks just managed to insult the MAJORITY of veterans who did not serve in a “war zone”. But rest assured, its no skin off MY nose…I take your LiberalLoser comments for what they are.

  100. AnotherID2remember says, “Sorry in advance if that example hit home.”

    No sorrys here “Another” I tend to agree. I took my degree in History, its a subject I enjoy. “Getting rich” off my degree was never in my focus all those years ago.

    And Beerboy was right on with his idea of the many who should be seeking TRADE education rather than a piece of paper. Most people do NOT earn a living with their chosen major, and many would be surprised at the income a highly skilled, in demand trade produces.

  101. Frosty challenges, “kluwer, go join the Marines.”

    Hey buddy….I think our friend kluwer would be challenged to scrub commodes on a typical Marine base! Of course he’d probably have to have a union meeting with his Teamsters to see if commode scrubbing was even allowed! :D

    No offense of course, just my opinion, based on the intellectual drivel the Kluwermiester has offered.

    Add Frida and LornaDoon and they could be “The A Team”! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  102. Kluwer rants, Ahh! And just for kicks, I’ll make the observation on kluwer and fridas bellyaching about serving this country”
    Well now, not only are you making personal attacks you have to make stuff up in order to do it, how very republican/conservative of you.
    No one “bellyached” about severing and then you have to lie about whether others did or didn’t serve in the military.”

    Nope kluwer, not “making stuff up”, just making an observing comment based on my opinion and that only. And how does one “lie” with an expressed opinion. Of course I bow to you sir, as an avowed liberal, you are probably better versed than I am in “lies” As entertaining as the lot of you are, you might want to brush up on your argumentative skills a bit.

    Shoot, for all I know the three of you are highly skilled, heroic medal of honor holding, technicians of warfare, but then again….I doubt it! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

  103. Has anyone else ever noticed that your average Liberal walks around looking like they just sucked on the bad end of a lemon! HAAAAAAAA!!

    There was a time – a few decades back – that the Left had a sense of humor. And then Reagan got elected and most of them just got bitter.

  104. And 30 years later with the country nearly totally destroyed by ‘conservativism’ and conservatives do you blame them?

  105. BeerBoy notices, Has anyone else ever noticed that your average Liberal walks around looking like they just sucked on the bad end of a lemon! HAAAAAAAA!!

    “There was a time – a few decades back – that the Left had a sense of humor. And then Reagan got elected and most of them just got bitter.”

    —-

    There was also a time when the average liberal was NOT the liberal of today. Even JFK, in my opinion, would barf at the thought of today’s socialist clowns! But back to your comment BB…It is rather sad isn’t it, that those lemon faced liberals would STILL carry their “bitterness” about Reagan’s election over thirty years after the fact. Especially when you remember that this nation bloomed like a springtime flower as soon as Jimmy Carter moved out of the White House. My hope is that we will experience deja vu on THIS election, when today’s “came from nowhere, failed democratic oval office occupier’ gets replaced.

    Frankly, I think your average liberal of today just enjoys being PO’d at the world. ;)

  106. Good Morning Kluwer! I have to go to work so the helm is yours. Enjoy! :D

  107. this nation bloomed like a springtime flower as soon as Jimmy Carter moved out of the White House.

    The fertilizer spread since that time (by both Republicans and Democrats) has yielded the current crop of noxious Derivatives and other economic frauds.

  108. Dale – when the Smothers Brothers got canceled, in spite of high ratings but for being “politically incorrect” with a skit lampooning religion, it was clear that leftist humor was being seen as a threat.

  109. 628 – TR and Ike would not even be allowed to join today’s GOP.

  110. even Ronald Reagan would be a RINO by teaparty standards….

  111. Amazing what this paper allows to be posted on this forum contrary to it’s posted ‘rules’.

  112. itwasntmethistime says:

    One thing that would help a lot of students reduce their debt level is if they graduated in 4 years instead of 5. We’ve all heard of kids who can’t graduate because there isn’t room in the courses they need for their major, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Most everybody I know who took longer than 4 years to graduate (myself included) needed an extra semester or two (or four) because we dropped a class here and there the first 4 years. The line to drop courses used to snake out of the admin building.

    I propose that if a student drops a course they should have to pay full tuition to re-take it instead of the subsidized rate.

  113. Pacman33 says:

    “left a little bit out of that quote didn’t you Pacman?”
    “I’m betting that this quote was edited for manipulation as well”

    Ooops, there I go again deviously editing quotes. I’m not sure if I need to re-post the entirety of their creepy, empty claims of imagined trickery? Am I ‘leaving something out’ not pasting in all their foolish retorts on this particular thread? Or maybe every feeble minded, mostly irrelevant, if not completely erroneous blurt deposited on this site?

    That’s downright pathetic when false accusations is the extent of what some are able to muster. Instead of introducing or disproving something, they instead stoop to fabricating ill intent of someone who lists quotes accompanied with notes regarding speech of origin and reference links to speech in full. Merely halfwits, essentially suggesting providing a quote is deceitful unless you paste the whole speech. Determining a link and reference is not only insufficient but dishonest?

  114. BeerBoy says, ‘this nation bloomed like a springtime flower as soon as Jimmy Carter moved out of the White House.’

    “The fertilizer spread since that time (by both Republicans and Democrats) has yielded the current crop of noxious Derivatives and other economic frauds.”

    Love it! :D

  115. “Amazing what this paper allows to be posted on this forum contrary to it’s posted ‘rules’.”

    Sure is huh?

  116. Frosty is wrong….as always.

  117. Speaking of lemon faced, sour liberals. When was the last time anyone saw a smile on a sign waving protester, or on the face of a commuter in a subaru plastered with faded Obama-2008, or “Save Tibet” bumperstickers! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

  118. Unfortunately Dale, judging by the intensity of the angry drivers who seem to want to drive everyone else off the road on the I-5 near Lewis/McChord, I’m thinking our service men and women aren’t too happy….

  119. beerboy, are you sure that those “angry drivers” sre military? They could be liberals trying as hard as they can to get away from enemy territory.

  120. kluwer, “frosty is wrong… as always” Wrong about what kluwer? You may be commenting on my post about how you liberals like to delete comments that you don’t agree with, which by the way has been deleted. Nuff said!

  121. beerboy, or it could be that they haven’t heard yet that the draft has been discontinued and they fear being caught up with when driving past the JBLM?

  122. frosty – so what is your theory as to why the traffic suddenly gets aggressively hostile near the military base?

  123. My post about frosty being wrong as always….still relevant and accurate.

  124. As far as traffic, its not just at the bases. I drive the I-5 stretch everyday. I see it anywhere there is congestion, whether it be coming up the southbound hill at the dome, the hwy 16 interchange, the slowdown for the exits at hwy 512, or the bases.

    And to be perfectly honest, its NOT mostly the military! Of all the traffic I encounter it seems the most careful and courteous drivers have out of state plates!

    I don’t care how much it offends the local traffic “experts”, the Puget Sound region takes the cake and the blue ribbon when it comes to selfish, rude, dangerous and careless “drivers”. ( and I use THAT term very, very lightly!!)

  125. By the way, we might notice that “kluwer” character is always saying someone is wrong, but it never specifies WHAT is wrong! The goofball cant carry on a simple debate without judging someone wrong simply because the idea goes against its opinion….how typically liberal of you kluwer! Haa!

  126. The hypocrisy of the right…..always amusing.

  127. kluwer, youre losing your touch, or youve reached the point where you cant make one. ;)

  128. Dale – There are several regulars here who post putdowns of liberals/left/etc. C’mon….I’m counting on you to inject some humor into the proceedings.

  129. “We all know, at least those of us who THINK”

    I assume you are not including yourself in that.

  130. BB says, “there are several regulars here who post putdowns of liberals/left/etc. C’mon….I’m counting on you to inject some humor into the proceedings”

    Oh Beerboy, those other “regulars” do such a fine job…but you have to remember, Kluwer IS humor! :D

    By the way Kluwer, yes I DO think, quite often and regularly. Shoot there are times I wake up in the middle of the night with thoughts!

    But in all honesty Kluwer, let me challenge you. Now I am being serious now, I truly am. Without injecting the usual and tired Liberal/Conservative buzz phrases, my honest belief is that Liberalism is a soul-sucking drain on any civilization, and not just in economics.

    Can you educate us please on how you see Liberalism as a long term solution, and sustaining program for any culture? And please support your thoughts with facts. We are standing by waiting for your essay.

  131. my honest belief is that Liberalism is a soul-sucking drain on any civilization, and not just in economics.

    So…are we to conclude that you are a monarchist?

  132. “By the way Kluwer, yes I DO think, quite often and regularly.”

    Do you have any evidence of that?
    I’ve seen nothing from you that would indicate you think at a level higher than your average 5th grader,
    Case in point,
    “my honest belief is that Liberalism is a soul-sucking drain on any civilization”

    Clearly you did not ‘think’ that up yourself, you have been conditioned to think that and you follow that conditioning because you simply can’t think for yourself.
    You, like all conservative take the easy way out, you refuse to put any real thought into issues, you instead look to a media source that servers your childish baser instincts and you stop there.
    Your ‘writings here are more than proof of that, you can’t manage to get past a child like rant for the life of you.

    So my challenge to you is at act like an adult and think about, really think about your so called stand on issues and come up with one, just one, conservative tenant that has worked as promised.
    Just one.
    Your pick.

  133. Well I guess that settles that. And its can’t be too “clear” because I DID think that up all by my lil ‘ol self kluwer. Haa!

    I’m not “conditioned ” at all Kluwer. I think for myself as I always have done. I just happen to think Conservatism is a far better way. For starts, I believe Conservatism builds and Liberalism tears down the fabric of a culture. You however, I believe, ARE conditioned and that is why you posted a response along the vein that I expected. Childish insults and the avoidance to my challenge.

    I believe in your case, you live the accusations you just listed. You sir, are the classic example of the old adage that, when you point a finger at someone, you have three more pointing at yourself.

    I expected Kluwer that you would do EXACTLY what you did, (as would most of the LiberalLoonTrolls we find here) and that is, respond to my challenge with a challenge, simply because I do not think you have the ability to seriously explain your views on liberalism.

    I’ll take you up on your challenge, but not until I see you give YOUR views on why liberalism is in your view, is the answer, and why such a system isn’t a drain on any society. And don’t copy paste someone elses Wikipedia opinions either.

  134. “So…are we to conclude that you are a monarchist?” Now BB, how did you get that out of my views, which I believe are very accurate, on Liberalism? :)

    Although I occasionally DO wonder sometimes, since the people of this country have become so mindless, and follow their leaders like lost little braying sheep, accomplishing nothing other than bipartisan bickering, that maybe we SHOULD just give the whole mess back to the Queen……at least SHE has some class! Far more than the “leadership” of this once great nation.

    But no sir Beerboy, I’ll just stick to the time tested, past proven successes of Conservatism ;)

  135. …….and while I’m sticking to that view, I’ll sit back, enjoy my coffee, and wait for the entertaining Pavlovian drool of the LocalLiberalTroll attacks! :D

  136. Dale – I would hope that you believe that your views are accurate – otherwise you would seem a bit schizophrenic (or at least very insecure).

  137. As I expected, nothing but the same tired old insults, and childish name calling. Nothing new, nothing original, just a whole lot of nothing.
    At least I tried.
    Amazing that he can’t even name one thing that conservatives have done that works…..not one.
    But he isn’t brain washed, no sir he ‘thinks’.
    LOL!!!

  138. BB….ME? Insecure! You gotta be kidding! With an ego like mine! HAAAAA!!

    And poor poor Kluwer….You might (should I emphasize “might”?), MIGHT recall that I challenged you to explain how Liberalism was the philosophy to save the world as we know it. I made it quite clear that I would answer your challenge as soon as you met mine first. You cant do it can you? You cant even support what you spout off about.

    Once again Kluwer, you prove with your pathetic attempts at debate, that you can only manage to point fingers at others while doing exactly what you accuse!

    It is simple truth apparently, that you arent up to a sensible debate. Perhaps you should go lie down with the rest of the pack and wallow in the puppy drool! ;)

    I’ll wait for a short time without expecting you to actually prove your case, and then I’ll just have to accept that it is beyond your capabilities. ;)

  139. And it just keeps deflecting. But then all conservatives are empty of facts and any real conviction. They only have what was fed to them in the last few days and the standard ‘always works’ insults and talking points.
    Sad really.

  140. Kluwer, you prove my point with every word you post! Talk about “deflecting”!! You cant do it! You haven’t got the simple ability to stand up for or explain your beliefs! One would think that one as vociferous as yourself would at least be able to defend their position!

    Once again, read back through my posts. I made the first challenge. Man up and defend your position and I will gladly do the same. However, you have already proven that you havent got the ability.

    You’re simply one more local, Tacoma liberal loon who waves the liberal banner because its the cool thing people do here!

    What I think is “sad really”, is someone who can not, or will not defend their own position!

  141. Then defend yours.

  142. Just one conservative tenant that has worked as promised.
    Should be easy, yet you have failed for 2 days now to come up with anything other than the predictable juvenile insults.
    Time to put your big boy pants on and act like an adult.
    Give it a try.

  143. Kluwer….I told you I would…As soon as you stood up to YOUR challenge. I DID ask first. You go then I will.

    But again, with every single comment you post, you make it clear you are nothing more than a bag of liberal wind with no ability to stand on your points. Carrying on an intelligent, thought sharing conversation with you, as nearly all Liberals, is a pure waste of time and energy.

  144. I’ll give you a starter Kluwer ( Gawd, its tough having to hold peoples hands through this stuff!!)

    REAL Conservatives….NOT the fanatical zealot minority that Liberals love to focus on…Have always believed in personal responsibility, personal gain and achievement, and a small limited government to protect the freedoms to pursue those goals. Those simple ideals are the very thing that FORMED THIS NATION!! I guess to a mindless drone of the Liberal community, taking a country from a weak, freedom seeking gaggle of colonies to the worlds greatesst superpower based on those simple ideals is not a qualifying “tenent” to the Liberal mind.

    Do you have an issue with that? Apparently as a Liberal you do.

  145. REAL Conservatives….NOT the fanatical zealot minority that Liberals love to focus on…

    I love how you complain about being lumped into a caricaturization based upon extremists by people you caricature based upon extremists….

    Those “simple ideals” that “are the very thing that FORMED THIS NATION were, and are liberal ideals. But along the way (or more accurately – in the past 20 or so years) the colloquial usage of the terms “conservative” and “liberal” got pretty messed up.

    ”We’re the new liberals of the Republican Party,” Goldwater told Dole, who was then facing criticisms from hard-line conservatives in the presidential campaign.

    ”Can you imagine that?”
    http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special25/articles/0531goldwater2.html

    As my cousin – the PhD in Political Science – told me, the fact that Unions somehow got connected with Liberalism is completely bizarre as Liberalism has always been pro-business. Almost as bizarre as the marriage of convenience between social conservatives and Libertarians.

  146. dcr just loves to prove my point that he doesn’t think.
    How do I know this? Easy, he has assigned a ‘belief’ to me, a belief that he was spoon fed by his media. I do not hold the belief that he demands I ‘defend’ then attacks me with even more spoon fed talking points.
    Now we all know that is all he is capable of doing, and yes I baited him into it, knowing that is all he can do.
    As Bb has pointed out, dcr has no real concept of what ‘liberal’ even means.
    All he can do is parrot what he hears, never even thinking about what it might mean or how wrong it may be.

    Now I wonder if he can figure out how wrong he is and ho foolish he looks with his continued childish rants?

    I’ll ask one more time, name me one conservative tenant that has worked, just one.

  147. aislander says:

    Dcr628: I seldom use the word “liberal” to describe the statists who compose the Democrat Party and more leftward still (although I believe many self-proclaimed Dems are merely stealth revolutionaries–Fabian socialists, if you will), because of the manifold meanings that can be assigned to that word.

    I prefer to refer to them as “lefties.”

    Certainly the classical liberals who formed this nation to be ruled by a government of limited and defined powers share nothing with the statist “liberals” of today.

  148. aislander says:

    I can’t resist.

    k****r writes: “…name me one conservative tenant that has worked, just one.”

    I’m certain there have been millions, but conservatives DO tend to own our homes…

  149. conservatives DO tend to own our homes…

    Made possible largely through intervention by the “Liberal” Hoover government that felt that workers saddled by the huge debt of a mortgage would be less likely to strike.

  150. The 1930s:

    1932 Home Loan Bank Act
    1933 Homeowner Refinancing Act
    1934 National Housing Act
    National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933
    1933 Homeowners Loan Corporation (HOLC) Formed
    1932 Home Loan Bank Board and Bank System Created
    1934 FHA Created
    1934 FHA 203 and Title I
    1934 Multifamily Insurance Section 207
    1934 Public housing, low rent
    U.S. Housing Act of 1937
    1937 Public Housing Administration
    FNMA (provides secondary market for FHA)
    1938 FNMA Chartered
    Public Housing Construction
    (60-year loans)
    http://www.huduser.org/hud_timeline/index.html

  151. The 1940s

    1942 National Housing Agency formed
    1942 Residential construction halted except for war housing. FHA prioritized for war housing: Section 607 and 608
    1942 Federal Rent Control
    FNMA expanded to cover VA loans
    1947 Housing and Finance Agency Formed
    1947 FHA insurance for manufactured housing
    U.S. Housing Act of 1949
    1949 Urban Renewal Administration
    1949 VA Home Loans, Farmers Home Administration Section 502

    ibid

  152. You get my point – I won’t clog the bandwidth with the ensuing 6 decades of government assistance to promote home-ownership…..which has worked gloriously – an increase from 45.6% in the 1920s to 66.2% in 2000.

  153. Lest you attribute the 30s and 40s to FDR’s “socialism”, here is a list from Reagan’s 80s:

    Section 203(K)
    1981 Brooke Amendment = 30% of Income
    1983 Housing and Urban Recovery Act
    FHA: ARMs; SAMs (Shared Appreciation); Indexed Mortgage Insurance
    1982 State CDBG Program
    1983 HODAG Rehab Development Grants
    Section 8 NC/SR terminated Section 8 Voucher Demonstration Program Voucher Program authorized
    1983 RESPA Amendments
    LIHTC
    Emergency Shelter Grants Supporting Housing Section 8 SRO
    1987 McKinney Act
    1987 Interagency Council on Homelessness
    1987 Nehmiah
    1986 Multifamily Coinsurance
    1987 ELIHPA Preservation
    1989 Fair Housing Amendments Act
    1989 HUD Reform Act
    1988 FHIP

  154. aislander says:

    All that in response to a throwaway line riffing on the moppet’s confusion of tenet and tenant?

    Bicycle in the shop?

  155. aislander says:

    …and with all that, you omitted the gloriously successful–along with its descendants–at destroying the economy, Community Reinvestment Act…

  156. Sorry Beerboy, just got home, have to do a few chores and errands then I’ll be back. I have to say though, after reading through todays posts ( I KNEW my morning comment would get something stirred up!) that you are doing what I hoped you wouldnt–you’re better than that) bring up the “classic” Liberalism which in no way shape or form is relevant to TODAYS screwed up idea of Liberalism.

    And Kluwer once again, proves that he cant carry on a conversation! He STILL hasnt been able to explain HIS ideas of Liberalism. He’s hopeless.

    aislander…..good point about Conservatives and home ownership, and all the other NORMALLY accepted forms of success. That might be the beginning of another Liberal curse idea floating around in my head! ;)

  157. and aislander, good job on catching that “tenet/tenant” thing! When I copied Kluwers comment into my post this morning I ALMOST fixed it for him, but just couldnt bring myself to sucha level of generosity! HAA!!

    Poor guy, but then again, he’s still probably struggling with his earlier spouts about child birth and whether a child is a child afters its BORN or after it takes its first breath! HAAA!!! Ahhhh another Liberal confusion run amuck! :D

  158. Kluwer assumes again, “he assigned a ‘belief’ to me, a belief that he was spoon fed by his media.”

    I hate to break this to you Kluwer ol pal, but these columns, comments and threads, are honest to God, the closest I ever get to “media”. My TV is very rarely turned on and that’s usually for the Weather Channel, the radio is usually on KIXI..not too much controversial politics there! HAAA!

    Maybe its the BOOKS I read! Jeeeeze some don’t even have pitchurs!!

    Keep up the tired old assumptions my friend, as someone else said awhile back….Its “cheap entertainment”.

  159. Okay, lets take a look at Conservative values and MODERN DAY Liberalism, since we have hopefully determined that we are NOT referring to Liberalism of centuries past.

    I have already said that most Conservatives hold to the philosophy of individual responsibility, and success, and expect a limited government to protect the freedoms that enable the opportunity for that success. This includes the success of corporations, who exist for the express purpose of profit, and as a by product of that success, provide jobs as opposed to the Liberally Loved Welfare System.

    Lets move on to the topic of abortion. Most Conservatives believe that life begins at conception. Its a simple, common sense belief that was quite the norm until today’s Liberalism began to creep out roughly 50 years ago. Based on that common sense belief (which isn’t very common anymore!) We all know, Liberals included if they have a brain, that fetus, or “thing” is a life in development, and if left alone WILL become a human child. Unfortunately for that child, in today’s Liberal mind its developing and future life my be snuffed out based on little more than the selfish demands for the rights of the mother!

    Lets take a look at the economy. The modern day liberal is crying their hearts out, blaming this “worst economic disaster since the great depression: (another liberal lie) on the fact that so many thousands have foreclosed on their mortgages. While they are blaming greedy banks and lending institutions, they conveniently fail to recognize that the REAL blame should go to the CONSUMER! No one held a gun to anyone’s head when they signed a mortgage for 300,000 on a house that was really worth 150,000. The market eventually would settle and IF they had done their homework they would have realized they would be upside down on a house they could not afford. Blame the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY of the consumer for signing the note!

    Those are just a couple topics. I could go on and on with Defense, Same sex marriage, Immigration, etc etc etc. But this should at least get the conversation going. The simple facts are that the fabric of this once great nation has crumbled under the 50 year onslaught of Liberal notions and lies force fed to our kids through the Liberal Public School System (there’s another topic!) and the blinded public looking for warm and fuzzy feel good solutions at the expense of reality.

    I of course am STILL waiting for Kluwer to chime in and actually defend the insane visions of the Modern Day Liberal Leftist Loon…..Yes I went and called names again! Haaaaaa!

  160. Aislander writes, “I can’t resist..k****r writes: “…name me one conservative tenant that has worked, just one.”

    I cant resist either! “name me”? Kluwer, forget political and social studies….You need remedial ENG 101! Haaa!!!!!

  161. “I’m certain there have been millions, but conservatives DO tend to own our homes…”

    So do a lot of liberals and even the evil ‘lefties’, so what?
    Now look up the word ‘tenant’ and get back to me.

    Still waiting for one conservative to answer my question without the childish, infantile insults.
    In other words, act like adults, if you can.

  162. Gosh, spelling smack, got me there but it is the last refuge of the beaten.
    Good luck fella’s trying to answer a simple challenge that should be so very easy for your belief system, one that you think is the answer to all ill’s and the cause of none.
    Just one tenant that works boys just one.

  163. Dale – if you are willing to concede that TODAY’S modern day “Conservatism” is completely screwed up than I will concede the same thing about what is called “liberalism” now. There be some real whack jobs out there who claim the mantel of Conservatism who are anything but.

  164. Well, I’ll just sit back and watch now. Kluwer, the rest of us have watched and waited patiently for you to come up with SOMETHING resembling an intelligent thought and post from you. You just havent got the ability. You cant explain your position, or how Liberalism is such a wonderful, society saving philosophy instead of the social/cultural drain that it is. It’s becoming apparent that carrying out a sensible debate is beyond your capabilities,

    And then typically, and lately humorously, you still barf out the usual, “Still waiting for one conservative to answer my question without the childish, infantile insults. In other words, act like adults, if you can.”..Kluwer I made the INITIAL challenge to YOU to explain your support for Liberalism, and several days later you have STILL not been able to pull that off. Maybe you could get those “200 Teamsters” to help you out since they are bought and paid for by the Liberal/Democratic party anyway! One of them MUST have a Liberal Explanation Manual lying around somewhere!! :D Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

    By the way Kluwer, regarding your “spelling smack”….It wasn’t the SPELLING we are laughing at. There IS a difference between “tenant” and “tenet”. From reading your earlier post regarding that, it seems clear which one you intended. Its surely NOT the “last refuge of the beaten” as there is no defeat at this end. Its simple payback, all in fun of course, since throwing out childishness is what you do best. Just seemed a bit entertaining to toss some of yours back to you.

  165. Beerboy wonders, “if you are willing to concede that TODAY’S modern day “Conservatism” is completely screwed up than I will concede the same thing about what is called “liberalism” now. There be some real whack jobs out there who claim the mantel of Conservatism who are anything but.”

    Of course I will Beerboy. I agree with that completely! I’ve already made that distinction. That is why if you read back on my earlier posts, you will see that I used the term “REAL Conservatives” to refer to my way of thinking and the way MOST Conservatives think, which is NOT the same as “the fanatical zealot minority that Liberals love to focus on…”

    The REAL Conservative philosophy is NOT part of what you refer to as “TODAY’S modern day “Conservatism”. The gaggle of today that you refer to is just another whacked out fringe as that of the Left. I side with the old Nixon/Reagan Conservatism, for lack of a better phrase, not the Santorum issue of SOME of todays “Conservatives”.

  166. Still with the juvenile attacks?
    Really?
    You can get out of the litter box long enough to have a real adult conversation?
    Not surprising really considering.

  167. Kluwer, you’re really getting rather sad now. Pathetic really. You are the classic example of that pointing finger with three pointing back at yourself! There is no hope towards actually seeing you offer any real, thoughtful support for what you believe in.

    In your defense however, it could be that modern day liberalism can NOT be defended. Its a social drain based on insanity for the most part. However, if anyone is going to defend it, it cant possibly be you. We have waited around for several days now, and your posts are just ‘ad nauseum’ repeats of the same old schoolyard babble.

    I gave it a little bit of a boost to hopefully spur you into a sensible debate, sharing ideas. You just haven’t got the ability and you prove it all by yourself with every post.

    I’ll stay on the upper limbs in this tree with Beerboy, he may have differing ideas but at least he can converse with maturity. Well…MOST of the time ;)

  168. So you’ve run out of childish insults you have to repeat them.
    How pathetic.

    Just one thing about conservatism that works…..just one.

  169. Repeating? Kluwer is on about repeating!? Sheeesh Kluwer, youre a tired old broken record!

    Actually I DID list more than one instance where Conservatism supports ideas that work while waiting for you to come clean on a challenge, which by the way you still fail at accomplishing.

    Kluwer I swear you must have a mental problem! I seriously think you must! You go on and on and on posting the same comment on a daily basis. I really do think reality escapes you! Of course that is normal for the LiberalLeftistLoons, so I wouldnt worry too much.

  170. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwzHooPjZdk

    Just thought I’d post this link, for the America hating Liberals.

    And for the heck of it, while local Tacoma liberals my age were smoking dope in the McDonalds parking lot in 1972, I was modestly involved in the Managua Nicaragua Relief Effort under a Conservative Administration…..about the time garbage bags were thrown at me on a local street while on leave when I had the nerve to go out in public in a military uniform!

    What have YOU done..LocalLiberalLoonsOfTacoma?

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