Letters to the Editor

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ABORTION: It’s time to reaffirm women’s reproductive rights

Letter by Ariane Chenard, Tacoma on March 28, 2012 at 1:16 pm with 133 Comments »
March 28, 2012 1:16 pm

People who refuse to acknowledge the need for women to have access to safe abortions have their heads in the sand. Let’s be clear: No one likes abortions. But people like to have sex, and having sex leads to conceiving babies, not all of them desired.

The best way to prevent unintended pregnancies and abortions is to educate people about the consequences of having sex and to make sure they have access to affordable contraception – something, strangely, those who are most opposed to abortions don’t want to hear about, preferring to think people will magically give up on sex, which is unlikely to happen.

Even with that, there is little chance that all unintended pregnancies will ever be avoided, so the choice between carrying to term or interrupting a pregnancy must remain.

It is why the Washington Senate must approve the Reproductive Parity Act, an act that was introduced to make sure women will still have choices when it comes to their reproductive health when federal health care reform is implemented in 2014. It’s not for the insurance companies nor for the employers to decide if a woman has an abortion or not. It’s a private matter.

The short-sighted cuts in family planning funding that are presently being discussed in the Senate, and which will have to be paid four times over within the next nine months as a result of the inevitable unintended pregnancies they’ll cause, have no place in the next budget either.

Leave a comment Comments → 133
  1. old_benjamin says:

    Ariane, did you ever stop to consider the possibility that YOU might have been an unintended pregnancy? If you were, would you have preferred to have been aborted? Obama’s mom was an 18-year-old when he was born. Probably he wasn’t convenient for her at the time. Would she, or you, have preferred he be aborted? The principle of abortion for unintended and inconvenient pregnancies is no respecter of persons, especially the unborn.

  2. igotdabombfool says:

    You could close your legs. And I wasn’t aware that contraception was so danged expensive that nobody could afford it.

  3. aislander says:

    Goebbels would be SO proud of this campaign. Repeat a lie often enough…

  4. LornaDoone says:

    Well the usual suspects with their usual fear tactics.

    Old Ben, I guess you are saying you’re glad that Ted Bundy’s parents didn’t abort, huh?

    “Close your legs”? Contraception fails now and then. Of course, most men don’t know anything about that because they are long gone and denying everything by the time a woman has to deal with an abortion. “The (insert euphamism for female dog here) tricked me into sleeping with her”

    “Godwin Law” is self explanatory. Just not sure what part of the letter is a lie, but we’ll never know because aislander doesn’t deal in details, just baseless assertions.

  5. menopaws says:

    Every time one of these macho males posts on these blogs about women’s health, I look upward, smile and thank the Lord that I married an evolved man and courtesy of time don’t have to deal with these issues. But, make no mistake—we women regardless of our age support the freedom and LEGAL services available for women in this country. Some of us are old enough to remember what it was like before and hope women never have to revisit that. So, all you macho types who think we should keep our knees together—have no fear. I am positive most women lucky enough to cross your path think exactly the same thing!!!!!!

  6. alindasue says:

    My only objection to “birth control” is when abortions are lumped in as a birth control method. Yes, if birth control products or fertility treatments for men are covered by an insurance, then they should be covered equally for women – but please don’t lump abortions into that equation. That’s a whole different matter.

  7. old_benjamin says:

    LD, does a Bundy trump an Obama?

  8. Great letter. The first three responses are not surprising considering their history here. They are like rain in the Pacific Northwest. We live with it and still get around handily as long as most of it goes into the drain.

  9. Frankenchrist says:

    Republicans want the government out of health care….except for the invountary transvaginal probes on unwilling women. Republicans want the government to take the lead on invountary transvaginal probes on unwilling women. In fact, Republicans favor mandatory invountary transvaginal probes on unwilling women.

    Republican War on Women.

  10. Let me remind the conseracons, you all are suppose to be in favor of smaller, less intrusive government and in personal responsibility.

    Thus abortions should be a personal decision.

  11. aislander says:

    xring writes: “Thus abortions should be a personal decision.”

    But, the actual patient isn’t ever involved in making that decision…

  12. Frankenchrist says:

    aislander is the perfect example of the Republican War on Women.

    Women of America: the Taliban Teapartiers want total control over your bodies. Voting Republican might just give them that power.

  13. aislander says:

    Hysterical, much?

  14. Frankenchrist says:

    Nope, just doing my part to inform women and ensure President Obama’s re-election (not that he needs any help.)

  15. “Goebbels would be SO proud of this campaign. Repeat a lie often enough…”

    Hypocrisy defined.

  16. “But, the actual patient isn’t ever involved in making that decision…”

    Sure she is.
    Why do you want the Govt involved?

  17. igotdabombfool says:

    LornaDoone – “Close your legs”? Contraception fails now and then. Of course, most men don’t know anything about that because they are long gone and denying everything by the time a woman has to deal with an abortion. “The (insert euphamism for female dog here) tricked me into sleeping with her”

    Of course it fails now and then. But…you also except that risk. The only fool proof contraception is…to close your legs and don’t open them until you’re ready to accept both the happiness and consequences. So when you go to the casino and lose, we should give you all your money back?

  18. You said it yourself Mizz Chenard!…”People like to have sex”.

    Yep, the age of instant gratification! Its what people WANT. Right now, and the heck with the consequences or responsibility!

    That’s all fine and good until a human infants life is involved. Get pregnant, and its just fine and dandy to vacuum that little bugger out of there because its just not convenient right now!!

    If all you people on the “its my right” parade stop and think, that is really what is happening. The pathetic thing is these days, so many think that is just fine!

  19. Frankenchrist says:

    Abortion is a convenient method of birth control when other methods fail.

    Like we said in the USAF:

    “Abort babies, not missions.”

  20. LornaDoone says:

    igotdabomb –

    I’m guessing that you’ll have no problem going without sex until women have that 100% perfect birth control device – like keeping their legs closed to you.

  21. LornaDoone says:

    We have a law that says if you CLAIM a teenager was attacking you that you have the right to kill him.

    They would love to eliminate the law that says if a fetus would kill the mother, they have no right to abort it.

    Only in America, folks.

  22. LornaDoone says:

    “That’s all fine and good until a human infants life is involved. Get pregnant, and its just fine and dandy to vacuum that little bugger out of there because its just not convenient right now!!”

    Talk to the Santorum family about their convenience and rights.

  23. Being responsible is recognizing that people do have sex and won’t stop even if you hope very hard that women (and women only) should “close their legs until they are ready to accept both happiness and consequences”. Such an hypocrisy. Why do you think married couples stopped having 15 children after birth control became available? People don’t even listen to the Pope anymore on that question. Because no one wants all the babies that come with having sex.

    Being responsible is teaching people about the consequences of having sex and how to prevent pregnancies, instead of keeping people ignorant and make them feel guilty afterwords.

  24. Freethought says:

    Christianity’s repressive sexual morality evolved as a cultural response to a legitimate human problem – unwanted children and/or single mothers unable to support them. The invention of the birth control pill changed all that forever. It is arguably one of the most profound paradigm shifts in all of human history (up there with fire and the wheel) and society has yet to catch up. Just as we as a species need to grow up and move beyond our primitive warlike ways now that we possess the technology to destroy humanity globally (nuclear weapons, fossil fuel burning, etc.), people also need to accept that absurd and unworkable ideas such as “abstinence only” need to go the way of the dinosaurs. Evolution has ensured that sex is the most pleasurable and desirable thing in our lives and therefore, for as long as people remain warm-blooded mammals, they are going to engage in it. If we have the power to harness that responsibly (i.e. contraception) then we should do so and stop letting primitive Bronze Age ideas rule our lives. Furthermore, the reactionaries on the right are constantly trying to impose their ideal world upon everyone else rather than first accepting reality as it is and then striving to work to change whatever they don’t like about it. This is a misguided and failed policy and will only continue to cause needless suffering. The beauty of reality is that it’s REAL! Open your eyes and deal with it.

  25. The Puritanical views put forth by people who claim to be conservative provide proof positive for how they are defined by Corey Robin and others. Every time they post something on one of these pages they offer support for those definitions and it is difficult to understand why they continue to embarrass themselves.

  26. Lorna, keeping politics and Santorum out of this (although he is the current target du jour to promote the liberal agenda–it’ll be someone or something else when he fades.)lets recognize the reality that in the name of “women’s rights” over the last forty years, MILLIONS of unborn American babies have been killed in this country simply because their existence was a hindrance to the selfish conveniences of the mother.

    No matter how much youu try to sugar coat it, that is true, simple reality.

  27. Frankenchrist mutters, “Like we said in the USAF: “Abort babies, not missions.”

    Cute…I’m wondering what Air Force you were a part of. Certainly not the same one I served in!

  28. This old argument will surely be attacked by the loons, but killing unborn babies is by nothing more than the act of birth getting in the way, not too far removed from the Holocaust isn’t it?

    Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, and Americans have murdered far more unborn children. All because either parties just couldn’t justify their existence.

    In today’s age of technology, all it takes is one simple ultrasound to prove that the unborn is definitely a human child. The difference the “pro-right” crowd wants to ignore while sweeping truth under the rug of convenience, is nothing more than the location and stage of the child.

  29. Hyperbole much?

  30. old_benjamin says:

    “Let me remind the conseracons, you all are suppose to be in favor of smaller, less intrusive government and in personal responsibility.
    Thus abortions should be a personal decision.”

    Not quite. Conservatives don’t think the deliberate taking of a life fall withing the domain of personal choice. It’s like, well, manslaughter, which, last time I looked, falls withing the domain of state law. Hope that helps.

  31. Page 22 of Obama’s autobiography “Dreams from My Father:”
    Barack Obama Jr. wrote of his parents’ wedding: “In fact, how and when the marriage occurred remains a bit murky, a bill of particulars that I’ve never quite had the courage to explore. There’s no record of a real wedding, a cake, a ring, a giving away of the bride. No families were in attendance; it’s not even clear that people back in Kansas were fully informed. Just a small civil ceremony, a justice of the peace. The whole thing seems so fragile in retrospect, so haphazard.”

    Obama’s mama was pregnant with him well before the “marriage” occurred, if there was a marriage. It is doubtful that his mama and papa ever actually lived together. Here we have a situation ripe for abortion. Aren’t you pro-choice types glad he wasn’t?

  32. If Obama had not been born, no one would have noticed.

  33. Hey ben, abortion is not the “deliberate taking of a life.” Until birth, it is a fetus and is not a person. A life is more than simply being alive as in “get a life.”

    Velmak takes wide lattitude assuming that the President’s parents would even consider an abortion. It’s called a preconceived notion and it is nonsense.

  34. Hey Publico, if the fetus is not a person untill the birth why do we consider it murder if someone other than the mother snuffs out it’s life out?

  35. Is it a coincidence that the letter writer has a French name?

  36. Publico, you take wide latitute in assuming Obama’s mother wouldn’t have considered an abortion. But the personage of Obama is not critical. The point is…well, if you didn’t get it, you are beyond understanding.

  37. BlaineCGarver says:

    The position on this issue is this: The women expect it for free. That’s all. The rest is all blovaiting.

  38. BlaineCGarver says:

    (hit enter too early)
    For Pete’s sake…go buy a box of rubbers and keep them in your purse….

  39. [contraception] “those who are most opposed to abortions don’t want to hear about…” Of whom are you speaking. This is an absurd generalization.

    How about women take responsibility for their choices? If they want to prevent pregnancies, there is one sure way and regardless of the implications in this thread, self-restraint is actually quite possible…and somewhat gratifying actually. Unless of course you enjoy being at the mercy of all of your appetites.

    If self-restraint is beyond you, buy contraceptives, but please don’t ask me to provide them for you.

  40. publico, I don’t know your sex, but did you ever have a child born to you or your spouse? If so, before birth did you refer to it as a “fetus”? If so, you are the only one I ever heard of that did. “Fetus” is a convenient and contemptible ruse for dehumanizing the unborn. It in no way alters the fact that the baby is a human being. It reminds me of the way the Nazis referred to Jews as subhumans to make it easier to exterminate them. It still works.

  41. LornaDoone says:

    “How about women take responsibility for their choices? If they want to prevent pregnancies, there is one sure way and regardless of the implications in this thread, self-restraint is actually quite possible…and somewhat gratifying actually. Unless of course you enjoy being at the mercy of all of your appetites.

    Not so amazingly, sozo forgets it takes two to tango, but puts 100% of the responsibility for “self-restraint” on women.

    “The position on this issue is this: The women expect it for free. That’s all. The rest is all blovaiting.”

    What is bloviating, Blaine is your comment that is inaccurate. No one said it must be free.

    Aren’t you pro-choice types glad he wasn’t? Join the ranks of those who are glad that Ted Bundy wasn’t aborted.

    Americans have murdered far more unborn children Killing the unborn…. having money you haven’t spent yet…. the list goes on.

    Lorna, keeping politics and Santorum out of this (although he is the current target du jour to promote the liberal agenda–it’ll be someone or something else when he fades.)lets recognize the reality that in the name of “women’s rights” over the last forty years, MILLIONS of unborn American babies have been killed in this country simply because their existence was a hindrance to the selfish conveniences of the mother.

    As was the case with the Santorums. It was their choice to abort, based on what worked best for them. It wasn’t mandatory.

    I’ll just laugh at your insistance that I keep politics out of the number 1 political issue of the Republicans for the past 30 years.

  42. LornaDoone says:

    “It reminds me of the way the Nazis referred to Jews as subhumans to make it easier to exterminate them. It still works.”

    Yeah, we’ve watched the demonization of a 17 year old dead black kid and how well that works for those that can’t admit he was killed in cold blood.

    The difference being that the Nazi’s and todays fascists have lied about Jews and black kids. A fetus is still a fetus, regardless of the emotional names given for other reasons.

  43. B-G-C,
    The issure is that the pill should be covered by a woman’s health insurance plan in the same way you viagra is covered.

  44. LD, take a breath. We’ll know what happened with the 17 year old in time. Meantime, you don’t know, so cool it with the rhetoric. In case you hadn’t noticed, the shooter is being what you call “demonized” just as were the college Lacrosse players at Duke back in 2006. Remember what happened? Charges were dropped and prosecutor was fired and disbarred. Too bad the same can’t happen to rabid bloggers.

    A baby is still a baby regardless of the self-serving names applied to protect the guilty.

  45. I have to agree, “Goebbels would be SO proud of this campaign. Repeat a lie often enough…”

    The far right has taken Goebbels tactics to a new level.

  46. Don’t forget the Brawley(?) case that “brutha” Al Sharpton tried in the media and as always, failed. If I were a betting person, based on brutha Al’s track record, I’d make a fortune from these liberals.

  47. LornaDoone says:

    “the shooter is being what you call “demonized”

    I’d say “oh my god”, but I don’t have one of those.

    People are crying for the facts of the case to be presented and the coverup goes on and on. Meanwhile the new rhetoric is to tell people to stop the rhetoric and the shooter is demonized.

    You don’t need much demonization when you kill someone.

  48. aislander says:

    Does the name “Richard Jewell” ring a bell?

    Not quite a parallel, but there are some commonalities…Poor guy is dead now and it is quite possible his public pillorying contributed to his early demise.

    Take a breath and let’s find out what really happened.

  49. LornaDoone says:

    “A baby is still a baby regardless of the self-serving names applied to protect the guilty.”

    Since rhetoric is your issue, do the Santorums say “we murdered our baby” when referring to the choice they made to abort?

    Is their rhetoric self-serving?

  50. LD, there is such a thing as self defense. Even most looney leftists admit that. If you’ll cool your jets, in time we’ll know who did what to whom.

    It’s striking that blacks kill blacks every day and there is no hue and cry as in the current situation. ASSUMING there was racist motivation, is that worse than the motive to rob or commit mayhem on another person? How come Obama doesn’t come to the defense of every kid that’s killed, black or white? The answer is quite obvious. He’s a political animal and there is political advantage to be gained in the current circumstance.

    BTW, your motivation is the same as his.

  51. “Since rhetoric is your issue, do the Santorums say “we murdered our baby” when referring to the choice they made to abort?”

    Do you have a source for that assertion, or did you just make it up like the rest of your crap?

  52. Velmak’s point about language is a valid one. And I appreciate his thoughts regarding how we refer to the unborn when in utero….that is when we are happy about it. I guess those of you who insist that the baby is not a baby until it slides into this ugly world, think it’s pretty darn silly when you see Mama and Daddy talking and singing to the fetus in the weeks before it’s actually a human being.

    As for Martin case, several here have pointed out other race-baiting cases that went south when the truth came out. In this particlar case, if Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, I hope he is prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but until then, all of you armchair experts should find something else to blather on about.

  53. Ortingmom says:

    It is funny that I and all of my friends have done just fine for many years without Nanny State/Govt holding our hands. Women need to take care of their responsibilities, this is no war on women

  54. The Zimmerman controversy is a convenient peg for the liberals to hang their diversions on. They don’t want to talk about the real problems facing this country. They don’t want the focus to be on Obama and his total failure as President. If they were truly concerned about young people being killed in the streets, they’d be heading to Chicago by the bus load to picket city hall, but wait, isn’t Chicago owned lock,stock and barrel by liberals?

  55. “If self-restraint is beyond you, buy contraceptives, but please don’t ask me to provide them for you.”

    No one has.

  56. “I guess those of you who insist that the baby is not a baby until it slides into this ugly world”

    Two points,
    This comes down to a legal term, in this country, like it or not a ‘baby’ isn’t a being until it takes it’s first breath.
    Doesn’t matter what you call it or sing to it.

    Second,
    If this world is so “ugly” why are you insisting that more and more unwanted children are brought into it?

  57. Kluwer,

    In the Dred Scott case, the Court ruled that slaves were chattels i.e., private property, Are you OK with that too?

    If not, why are you OK with he “legal term” “fetus” that deprives human beings of their humanity?

  58. btw, I’m a girl, as in Velma Kelly of “Chicago.”

  59. Kluwer writes, “This comes down to a legal term, in this country, like it or not a ‘baby’ isn’t a being until it takes it’s first breath. Doesn’t matter what you call it or sing to it.”

    Yeah, sure, dont accept that a “fetus” as you label it in your cold, sterile, safe method, is a human child. Dehumanizing a baby does make it easier to kill doesnt it. Combat veterans for generations have labelled the enemy with certain “labels” to make him easier to kill. This doesnt seem to different.

    Regardless of what phase of birth it is in, to illustrate your ridiculously insane view, a child is out of the womb, born seconds ago, and you are going to stand there and claim that child is not a human life until doc slaps it on the butt to make it cry its first breath?

    Im not sure of your reasoning is the result of typical liberal “its all bout my rights”, brainwashing, or if you are just sick.

    (Of course, as we see everyday in dealing with the insanity of the typical liberal, just BEING a liberal makes one rather sick anyway!)

  60. Funny listening to the average liberal. The make the appearance of being the saviors of society, all that warm fuzzy peace and love stuff…

    But when it comes down to the “its my rights and it’s my body” stuff, they seem to forget about giving a hoot in Hades about the right of their child to have the life they were part of creating in their lust for gratification. I wonder if they are glad their own mothers made the choice for life.

    The liberal mind has got to be the most jumbled and confused mass of hypocritical cells gathered in one head!

  61. took14theteam says:

    kluwer401/402 says:

    Nothing…..

    Just like the old days.

  62. aislander says:

    It seems to me that smart liberals are dishonest and sincere liberals are…naive.

  63. aislander says:

    It IS customary to dehumanize before committing atrocities…

  64. aislander writes,

    1. “It seems to me that smart liberals are dishonest and sincere liberals are…naive.”

    2. “It IS customary to dehumanize before committing atrocities…”

    Right on both counts!

  65. aislander says:

    Thanks Dcr. I tend to wax epigrammatic after a couple of glasses. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

  66. “you are going to stand there and claim that child is not a human life until doc slaps it on the butt to make it cry its first breath?”

    Yes.
    Simple fact.
    It’s not hard to understand, it’s been the law of the land in this country since day one.
    Why is that so hard for you?

  67. “It IS customary to dehumanize before committing atrocities…”

    Yet another thing the right has in common with the 3rd reich, aislander, you seem very comfortable their teachings.

  68. “If not, why are you OK with he “legal term” “fetus” that deprives human beings of their humanity?”

    You, me, we have to draw the line some place, right now and since time began, ‘humanity’ as you put it (cleaver that but it won’t work) begins at birth.

    Think back to your objection to the President and his birth cert. remember how you denied the ‘Certificate of live birth’?
    Now ask yourself, why wasn’t that good enough?

    Cake and eat it too.
    You conservatives never quite get that one do you?

  69. Aislander writes,
    “It seems to me that smart liberals are dishonest and sincere liberals are…naive.”

    “It IS customary to dehumanize before committing atrocities…”

    Anyone find the hypocrisy?

  70. KLUWER, Isn’t it time for you to go back to bed? Why have people been convicted of murder when a “fetus” is killed in a crime? Can’t have it both ways. I realize that simple logic is something that is missimg in the DNA of a liberal but this is not rocket science. It’s either a live human being or it’s not.

  71. My apologies velmak; I guess I always default to the masculine gender when I don’t know for sure. It comes from growing up in the dark ages when, heaven forfend, we actually used terms like mankind rather than “correcting” it to make sure women didn’t feel slighted. People here once presumed I was a guy too. Again my apologies.

    I am inclined to concur with aislander on both counts which is not surprising of course. Among my own circle of acquaintances, I would have to say that a lot of baby boomers who ended up on the liberal side of the fence are both naive and cynical. This is why I believe it’s a byproduct of indoctrination at the college level as this is where we all first encountered pseudo-intellectual professors who were inflated by their own ego pumps and decidely anti-American in their views. The movement to eurofy America has been underway for quite some time.

  72. aislander says:

    sozo: “Smart” to me means both intelligent and possessed of true knowledge. No one who fits that description could believe lefty claptrap, and is, therefore, pursuing the main chance.

    I don’t doubt that there are sincere liberals who score highly on IQ tests, though…

  73. “It IS customary to dehumanize before committing atrocities…”

    “Smart” to me means both intelligent and possessed of true knowledge. No one who fits that description could believe lefty claptrap, and is, therefore, pursuing the main chance.

    I don’t doubt that there are sincere liberals who score highly on IQ tests, though…

    I would have to say that a lot of baby boomers who ended up on the liberal side of the fence are both naive and cynical.

    first encountered pseudo-intellectual professors who were inflated by their own ego pumps and decidely anti-American in their views. The movement to eurofy America has been underway for quite some time.

    I realize that simple logic is something that is missimg in the DNA of a liberal but this is not rocket science.

    Amazing isn’t it?

  74. It’s either a live human being or it’s not.

    Until it draws a breath, it’s not.
    Like it or not.

  75. When beaten the right sure does go to the personal attack!

  76. aislander says:

    If you say so, crafty…

  77. Whatever that means, but you dodge and run so often……

  78. does a Bundy trump an Obama?

    Hard to say…Obama has been responsible for more deaths than Bundy was.

    And then, if you want to do the what ifs, there is the conclusion by the freakonomics folks that the lowered crime rates after Roe v. Wade aren’t just correlation but causation – unwanted children become criminals at a higher rate that wanted children.

  79. The near instantaneous Godwin infraction by aislander, et al suggests that they know they have already lost this argument.

  80. aislander says:

    If I had merely said “big or repeated lie,” would that have passed muster, beerBoy?

    Because that is exactly what this “war on women” is.

    The Obamunists have to rev up the base, which doesn’t speak well for what the internals of their polling are showing…

  81. “The near instantaneous Godwin infraction by aislander, et al suggests that they know they have already lost this argument.”

    They lose every argument.

  82. Dcr628 has more than proven that with her latest wild eyed screed.

  83. The Obamunists

    You really have reduced yourself to 3rdpig’s “socialist/marxist” level now?

  84. By the way Kluwer…if anyone is “losing” any argument, its YOU.

    The rest of us just hang around watching you come up with more groveling as you try to keep your failed argument afloat.

  85. And the wild eyed hits just keep coming.
    Amazing how the far right thinks the more they rant and rave, declaring victory and calling names, the more they ‘win’.

  86. There is no “ranting or raving” Kluwer…

    Simple fact is the few Conservatives floating around in this Liberal cesspool are for LIFE, and some sort of civil decency with the understanding that “rights of the individual” are not supreme when it denigrates society on the whole. Which if you look honestly, is exactly what has happened to this American culture in the last forty odd years since the “liberal agenda” has gone on its brainwashing spree. Just about every aspect of American life has gone into the toilet because of it.

    The degenerate Liberals on the other hand, are for THEIR RIGHTS BY GOD, EVEN IF IT MEANS KILLING CHILDREN. (No wild eyed “yelling” just caps for simple emphasis.)

  87. Those people support death to maintain their selfish rights. No sane person could believe that OR think it.

    Yet many of us think nothing about sending drones, bombs or troops to bring death to other countries (that just coincidentally have large deposits of natural resources that our industries make use of). 9 out of 10 deaths from US drones are to innocent civilians, not the targeted suspected terrorists.

    All life involves the death of other creatures/plants. And us USans, who enjoy a higher standard of living than any other country, try to ignore the amount of death that our “defenders of our way of life” bring across the globe.

    If you are going to start claiming a higher moral ground Dale, you better consider the full picture.

  88. I am not disagreeing with you on that Beerboy, but this is an argument regarding ABORTION, not the governments actions in foreign countries. Which by the way, the Liberal Savior Obama who so many thought was going to end the wars has in fact, ESCALATED.

    Try to stay on topic and not distract the issue. Which we all know of course, is a favorite Liberal tactic.

    By the way, that “war for oil” hooey you seem to suggest is ridiculous. Do a bit of research and find out just how little of our petroleum is from the Middle East and you will see how ludicrous that old saw is.

    Once again, lets stay on topic. This is about the killing of children to exercise “rights”. Simple, self indulgence at the cost of a human life. Fact is, the pro-abortion, “its my right” crowd, according to your argument, are no different that our nation invading, civilian killing government are they.

  89. Just sayin’, either side of the abortion issue can claim moral superiority by semantics (“anti-choice” or “anti-life”). There is a legitimate moral argument that can be made by both sides – so morality is not a winning argument (besides….we are talking about legalities here, morality really isn’t the point)

    btw – we aren’t talking about “killing of children”. The “pre-born” or “un-born” “babies” are potential children. I understand and appreciate your view but using semantic dishonesty in order to claim the higher moral ground is a bit…paradoxical…don’t ya think?

  90. tiny American babies

    Kinda reminds me of those sad eyed abused dog and African Children mission commercials with the plaintive music – just another emotional plea pretending to be irrefutable logic. Nice touch with the “American” insertion…got the image of sad-eyed infants wrapped in the flag.

  91. Beerboy! Please!! I know you are far more intelligent than this!

    “Potential children”? Are you serious?

    Any half functioning brain knows that the “potential child” you are trying to sell WILL be a baby IF it is left alone to develop and come to birth. And the insane garbage fed by some people that it is anything less until it breathes is …..

    My God, words fail me at the stupidity of this argument and the lengths the liberal left will take to convince anyone that it is sane!

    Abortion is the killing of small children. Nothing less. And anyone who supports it obviously has never HAD children or watched one born. If they have they are indeed, sick beyond cure!

  92. Ooooh, ouch, bBoy. “potential child?” You worry me. I hope you never refer to Mom and Dad as a parental unit or I’ll know you’ve been assimiliated completely.

    Legally, at the moment, the termination of a life in the womb is permissible. That doesn’t make it right, of course, as we all remember that slavery was once permissible by law.

    The point here is this…abortion is the termination of life, thus “pro-life” is a right and reasonable desriptor of those who fight to make it illegal.

  93. “(besides….we are talking about legalities here, morality really isn’t the point)”

    Which is what the big govt solution right wingers don’t seem to understand.
    For some reason their emotions rule them and they lose the ability to think rationally.

  94. “Legally, at the moment, the termination of a life in the womb is permissible.”

    And will stay that way for a very long time.
    Even if it were somehow outlawed it wouldn’t stop abortion, as we all know because it was made legal to save the lives of many adult women, American women, that were dying having back ally abortions.

    Bottom line, if you don’t like abortion, don’t have one.

    BTW soso, I went to that evil, evil art show ‘hide and seek’ that you fear so much over the weekend. It was really good, not at all shocking or even explicit at all.
    You should open your eyes and go, I think you will not only learn something about others but you will learn something about yourself as well.
    Enlightenment is a very good thing.

  95. Abortion is the killing of small children.

    I use “small children” to refer to Kindergarteners – average height around 3’6″.

    At 4 weeks that “small child” is an embryo consisting of two layers of cells. At two months it is the size of a small kidney bean. At 3 months it is 3 inches long. At 4 months about 5 inches long.

    And, I differentiate between baby, toddler, child….

  96. sozo and dcr – the facts are that state legislatures aren’t attempting to outlaw abortion, rather they are trying to make it as unpleasant as possible.

    If the conservative politicos REALLY wanted to make abortion illegal they would but it serves their interests in fundraising and getting out the vote more to make token efforts rather than deal with it directly.

  97. If they wanted to outlaw it they would have done it when they controlled all 3 house of Govt.
    They didn’t because the fact is, it’s a huge cash cow for the right and it is a political weapon they use to stir up the mindless ‘base’.

  98. “I differentiate between baby, toddler, child….”

    As does everyone that is being honest.

  99. aislander says:

    So…beerBoy…it’s unpleasant to view an ultrasound image of the child one is about to kill?

    I’d say it becomes “unpleasant” (what a weak descriptive!) if one goes on and obliterates that life…

  100. It is unpleasant to have an invasive, unnecessary medical procedure mandated by the government in order to have a perfectly legal procedure performed.

    And…I would think that a conservative like you would understand why those kind of regulations are repressive in nature.

  101. “mandated by the government”

    Hey, isn’t it the most unconstitutional thing ever devised, having the big evil Government forcing us to buy a product??

    The hypocrisy of the right shows itself again and again.

  102. “if one goes on and obliterates that life…”

    As we have more than established, legally, it’s not a ‘life’.

  103. aislander says:

    There was another prominent government that hid behind legalities.

    Its actions may have been deemed “legal” (we are fallible human beings, after all), but were assuredly not moral.

    Those actions were later found to be illegal as well…

  104. Some of these comments remind me of things we’ve read about the horrors of slavery and how black people were viewed BY LAW for quite some time.

  105. Great letter Ariane, the Reproductive Parity Act should be passed as it ensures fairness and equity in insurance plans for women’s reproductive health!

  106. aislander says:

    Great point, sozo. To dehumanize by law is a predicate to many horrors, some fatal to the body; others to the spirit.

    It’s also fatal to the souls of the perpetrators…

  107. aislander says:

    beerBoy writes: “…they are trying to make [abortion] as unpleasant as possible.”

    Yeah. Otherwise it’s one of life’s greatest enjoyments…

  108. “There was another prominent government that hid behind legalities.”

    Really?
    Do tell….

  109. “To dehumanize by law is a predicate to many horrors, some fatal to the body; others to the spirit.”

    You got your behind handed to you on that once before, when you were honest about what you were trying to say, why are you hiding it now?
    What are you afraid of?

  110. There was another prominent government that hid behind legalities.

    Pray tell, which Founder was against government restricted by law?

  111. aislander says:

    I should have written that there was an infamous government that justified its atrocities by saying they were all perfectly legal. You can’t directly compare the 40,000,000 or so aborted babies with the holocaust only because our government hasn’t participated directly in the slaughter. But it has slid some monetary support into it. It would have been more but for the efforts of the Republicans, for which I thank them.

    But it is not a proud time in our nation’s history.

  112. Beerboy shares, “Abortion is the killing of small children.
    I use “small children” to refer to Kindergarteners – average height around 3’6″.
    At 4 weeks that “small child” is an embryo consisting of two layers of cells. At two months it is the size of a small kidney bean. At 3 months it is 3 inches long. At 4 months about 5 inches long.
    And, I differentiate between baby, toddler, child….

    You left out one detail Beerboy (and your sidekick Kluwer when it chimed in in your support, that embryo, fetus, slab of insignificant meat, or whatever else you care to label it, WILL BECOME that ‘small child in Kindergarten’ if the self centered “parent” leaves it alone to reach birth instead of killing their own flesh and blood in the name of their freedoms and rights.

    As much as you characters put your liberal spin, and excuses on this it still remains that the unborn fetus, or embryo, or slab of meat WILL be a CHILD. You cant deny that, and killing it, especially for convenience is insanity.

    By the way, I have known three women over the years who have had abortions,(my guess is Beerboy, that neither you nor Kluwer have had one!)and I can tell you that all three have dealt with the guilt and pain of that youthful choice and mistake ever since.

  113. Dale – your guess is very incorrect. I have held women’s hands as they underwent the procedure. I fully understand the emotional impact.

    As I wrote above, I understand and appreciate your emotional stance on this issue. And I understand why you feel that your conclusions are conclusive. But, clearly, they are not. Your emotional reaction and your sense of morality are good enough for you – but not a sound basis for the creation of law.

    aislander – your Holocaust invocation is an even more emotional appeal than Dale’s.

  114. Meanwhile, in Georgia they have passed a law requiring women to carry unviable fetuses to full term if they have passed the 20th week:

    Rep. Terry England (R-Auburn) compared pregnant women carrying stillborn fetuses to the cows and pigs on his farm. According to Rep. England and his warped thought process, if farmers have to “deliver calves, dead or alive,” then a woman carrying a dead fetus, or one not expected to survive, should have to carry it to term.
    http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2012/03/31/at-11th-hour-georgia-passes-women-as-livestock-bill/

    Expect a Constitutional challenge to the Georgia bill (called the “fetal pain” bill by Repubs) as science provides no evidence of fetal pain before the 24th week which, not coincidentally, is how long Federal rulings guarantee the availability of legal abortions.

  115. btw Dale – I have delivered a stillborn calf that was carried full term. It was a extremely difficult. We had to reach into the birth canal, wrap the dead calf’s legs with a chain and three of us had to pull with all of our might while pushing off against the cow that was obviously in extreme pain (and at significant risk of death).

  116. “You can’t directly compare the 40,000,000 or so aborted babies with the holocaust”

    No you can’t, for a great number of reasons, but that won’t stop you, it never has.

  117. As much as you characters put your conservative spin, and excuses on this it still remains an unborn fetus which has no rights in this country until it is born.

  118. I’ll bet there are a lot of black people who are sure glad that MLK and others kept fighting to see laws change in the name of righteousness.

    I’ll bet there are a lot of women who are glad that a fight was staged to change the laws that kept them out of the voting booth.

    Yeah, abortion is legal. So was the sale of human beings at one time. Your “it’s the law” mantra is growing tiresome.

  119. aislander says:

    The idea that changing a law changes reality is such a typical lefty notion, sozo, and well illustrates that liberals are limited by their psychological makeup, and why they are immune to logic…

  120. LornaDoone says:

    So a fetus/embryo is the equivilant to a human being?

    I want to see sozo go on a seed diet, as opposed to eating fully developed fruits and vegetables. Try embryos as opposed to beef.

    They are all the same, right?

  121. LornaDoone says:

    immune to logic? Watch this:

    FASCIST

  122. aislander says:

    Get the help you so desperately need…

  123. Kluwer says, “As much as you characters put your conservative spin, and excuses on this it still remains an unborn fetus which has no rights in this country until it is born.”

    Now wait a second Kluwer. Just the other day you were spouting off claiming that a fetus did not become a child until it BREATHED….Now there is a short difference in time between birth and breathing. So which is it? If you are going to be carrying on like this youre just going to have to keep your stories/excuses on the same page.

    And Beerboy, I hate to break this to you, but you have a tendency to sidetrack the issue with distraction on several counts. And we are talking children not cows.

  124. Just think…..Even Kluwer was a fetus at one point! …..I think! HAAAAAAAAAA!

  125. LornaDoone says:

    “Get the help you so desperately need…”

    Right on cue, Aislander. Like a fiddle.

    I love the logic.

  126. And we are talking children not cows.

    Tell that to the Georgia Republicans.

  127. Just to be clear here – sozo and aislander are arguing against laws.

    I never took either of you for anarchists – do you have those nifty t-shirts with the a in a circle?

    As I have stated before, if you believe a law is inherently unjust then work to repeal it. But, the tactics utilized by the Right have been either to harass (either by passing government regulations that are intervene between the physician and the patient, demonstrations that force the patient to pass through a mob yelling at her and, in the extreme, terrorist activities including murder and arson) those who are opting to make use of a legal operation.

  128. Dale – seriously! You are lecturing me on sidetracking issues with silly posts?

  129. Of course I am Beerboy! Sheesh! ;)

  130. LornaDoone challenges, “So a fetus/embryo is the equivilant to a human being? I want to see sozo go on a seed diet, as opposed to eating fully developed fruits and vegetables. Try embryos as opposed to beef.
    They are all the same, right?”

    Well now, I can tell you that I have sat down with a bag of sunflower seeds, and felt just as full as I have after a cheeseburger. Food is food, regardless.

    One more pathetic, liberal analogy bites the dust. No matter what spin you people put on this, a fetus will become a human child, and deliberately ending its development and thus, its life, for the selfish convenience of the mother, more worried about her rights than the life of her future child, is wrong. There is no other possibility to this.

  131. …by the way Lorna, do you prefer a three egg omelet, or a slice of boloney?

  132. Of course with your Liberal leanings, I would have to think you prefer BALONEY….but that still wouldnt take away from the fact that the EGGS are still EQUALLY food.

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