Letters to the Editor

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SHOOTING: I’ll give Zimmerman refuge

Letter by Constance V. Walden, University Place on March 28, 2012 at 1:33 pm with 354 Comments »
March 28, 2012 1:33 pm

The man who shot the black 17-year-old – he says in self defense – will not get justice at the hands of the unjust ones (Obama’s Justice Department and the new Black Panther Party). So, he can come to my house and I will give him refuge.

It turns out George Zimmerman is a Democrat, Hispanic man, so the left-leaning ones cannot scream white racism or that the Republicans did it.

The Black Panthers have placed an unlawful bounty on the head of this man. Really? In America? Shame!

Silence from Obama about the bounty. Silence from the Justice Department. And there stands Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, as always right on time.

Come to my house, Mr. Zimmerman. I will give you refuge.

Leave a comment Comments → 354
  1. sandique says:

    There is a dead child.

    Why are you opposed to Zimmerman facing the law?

  2. LornaDoone says:

    When a racial slur is directed your way, Ms. Walden, we’ll take note that it is not racism if it comes from a Democrat or Hispanic. Or did you say in could only be racism if it is from a white person or a Republican? If so, you’ve made a racist statement.

    I’ll also make a note that you are the one person in the United States that takes “The New Black Panther Party” seriously.

  3. How do you know Zimmerman is a Democrate?

  4. Dave98373 says:

    I didn’t know white people and Republicans are the only ones in life allowed to be racists? Just ask the Tukwila School District. Anyway, people that continue to fan the flames of hate and discourse (including Spike Lee and his wrong address tweet to the wrong Zimmerman asking people to inflict harm on the owners) should be ashamed of themselves.

  5. What weapon did Trayvon have that threatened Zimmerman’s life? Also of further note, why is it that when the “Black Panthers” get all vigilante its a shame in America, but the vigilante gunning down of a kid armed with an ice tea and skittles is self defense?

  6. old_benjamin says:

    But minorities can’t be racist because they don’t have power, or so we are told.

  7. Dave98373 says:

    “What weapon did Trayvon have that threatened Zimmerman’s life?”

    His hands. They were busy slamming another man’s head against the concrete multiple times. This “kid” with “skittles” who already has a criminal record at 17 and has been suspended three times already from school. And the mother? She is busy trying to trademark her son’s image from five years prior to profit from it. Nice comments from a grieving mother. In line for all the profits off this tragedy are the usual suspects…Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, attorneys, and the media.

  8. SandHills says:

    http://www.wistv.com/story/17279071/teen-charged-in-five-points-beating-to-be-charged-as-adult

    No national outrage here…..

    But there are those who would say that since Zimmerman hadn’t been arrested then it is also a miscarriage of racist justice that these thugs got arrested.

  9. sevenstrokeroll says:

    Oh my…where to begin? First off, what we have here is a case of one guy shooting to death another guy and no witnesses. Right there, on the spot, a thorough police investigation should have been conducted.

    Secondly, based on hard evidence in the form of a 911 call, we know the shooter was told to stop following and leave it to the police. He did not. (I’m betting Mr Zimmerman, given a choice, would much rather take back that poor decision after the fact, than come here and live under the protection of the Walden residence at this time)

    Thirdly, given the actual circumstances, an innocent kid was killed by a neighboor hood watch volunteer. I am allowing for rational reasoning here, but consider that being your child. Simply walking home from the store with candy and a drink and for that crime, he was executed. If that is acceptable to any of you, well boy howdy, do you ever live in the right country! What are you griping about? But please do us all a favor and rescind your offer to this guy. After all, he is an Hispanic Democrat and lawd knows we don’t need any more of that ’round these parts!

  10. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Another courageous letter from Ms. Walden.

    For the people who say they want justice, I ask, is it justice to be able to defend yourself against someone who hits you in the face, knocks you to the ground and then proceeds to pound your head into the concrete?

    The race baiters in America want to turn the death of Trayvon Martin into a race war, yet they fail understand or recognize the truth: Self defense is justice.

    Trayvon’s supporters seem unable to even consider the possibility that Trayvon may have been the aggressor and that the person most responsible for Trayvon’s death may have been Trayvon.

    Everyone has a right to stop someone else from trying to kill or seriously harm them.

    If this were not true, lynchings would be legal.

  11. igotdabombfool says:

    Why is he continued to be called a kid? He was almost 18! He had a criminal record and was currently on suspension from school.

    BTW, Zimmerman is half white as well. Only reason this made it so big. A white guy killed a black guy that was half a foot taller than he was.

    What happened? Don’t know. Not blaming either side, but at least don’t sugar coat what who was involved.

  12. concernedtacoma7 says:

    7- there is a witness. Backs up Zimmerman’s version of events.

  13. Scottc51 says:

    When people jump to conclusions based upon race, it is called racial prejudice. This event has been aggressively pre-judged because of the relative skin color of the participants.
    I will say that it is highly unusual for a killer to call police just before the killing.
    Any blanket dismissal of Zimmerman is wrong, just as any blanket conviction of him is wrong.
    And bounties are illegal in the NFL, they certainly should cause the arrest of anyone proposing a bounty on anyone in this case. The New Black Panther who made such a lynch-mob-bounty statement is guilty of inciting violence. That person or persons should be placed under arrest immediately.

  14. LornaDoone says:

    ““What weapon did Trayvon have that threatened Zimmerman’s life?”
    His hands. They were busy slamming another man’s head against the concrete multiple times.”

    “He had a criminal record and was currently on suspension from school.”

    Strictly allegation at this point. Keep carrying that right wing water.

    “there is a witness. Backs up Zimmerman’s version of events”

    There were witnesses that called 911 who were not allowed to provide testimony, but an “unidentified witness” later backed up Zimmerman’s story. Smells worse than last week’s fish. Remember, Zim’s daddy was a judge.

    It’s amazing how all of this trumped up information becomes fact overnight, but the same people can ignore the audio tape of the 911 operator.

  15. aislander says:

    I can’t count the number of times that I seen writers of letters that spouted lefty orthodoxy congratulated for their courage (most of those congratulations coming from FLamotte…).

    This letter took real courage to write…

  16. LornaDoone says:

    As to the “Black Panther” diversion – what does this have to do with the case? NOTHING. Some looneys getting their 15 minutes of fame.

    Neither party has control over a bunch of looneys (case in point, look at the right wing media and their false reports).

    “The Orlando Sentinel reports that Mikhail Muhammad announced the reward during a protest on Saturday, and when a Sentinel reporter asked if he was inciting violence, Muhammad said, “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.”

    Now since they know who put out the bounty and had media coverage, how tough would it be to arrest someone? Wouldn’t want to do that and put the issue to bed, would we? Heck, no. There is too much mileage to be made by people like Waldren sending letters to the editor about it.

    “When people jump to conclusions based upon race, it is called racial prejudice. This event has been aggressively pre-judged because of the relative skin color of the participants.”

    An open mind and an ear to the audio tape will solve that problem. Zimmerman definitely used a racial slur.

  17. LornaDoone says:

    “This letter took real courage to write… ”

    Or living with a dozen cats.

  18. sevenstrokeroll says:

    Yes courage! And reagrding courage, concernedtacoma7, it was very courageous of Hannity to neglect to provide a name to this call from the clear-it-all-up witness! This nameless hero deserves the protection of the Walden household too!

  19. LornaDoone says:

    SandHills – any chance we can still to the issue at hand?

    If you want to haul out crimes/race, there is a whole history in the southern states of the KKK and their antics and how they got off scott free for a century.

  20. LornaDoone says:

    make that “stick”

  21. concernedtacoma7 says:

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

    7- what is your point? The name should be released? So Spike Lee can tweet it?

  22. concernedtacoma7 says:

    K_nos, since I know you love AT, here is a nice article on race and crime

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/the_silent_tragedy_behind_trayvon_martin.html

  23. LornaDoone says:

    Regardless of who might “tweet” what (take a look at the posts on these threads from our local fascist right wing), if there is a TRUE witness, it should be part of the public domain. Why talk to a FOX affiliate and not the police? Stinks worse than a dead skunk in the middle of the road.

    We know that the right wing has done nothing to fan the flames, have they?

    Faked pictures on Twitchy.com? (owned by Michelle Malkin)

  24. LornaDoone says:

    Let’s see. I witness a shooting. What do I do?

    CALL THE LOCAL FOX AFFILIATE!

  25. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The guy did talk to the police, and helps explain why Zimmerman is not jail.

    Are you really this dense or just trying to fan the flames of racial tension? Your posts show the answer.

    And the real pictures of TM are now available. He does not look like the ones in the MSM. And she apologized for the photos.

  26. LornaDoone says:

    Guy did talk to police and it’s not a part of the public record?

    Where are the other witnesses that tried to testify?

    I haven’t mentioned anything about race, other than the obvious racists comments by Zimmerman, but you seem to want to constantly go back to race every post.

  27. LornaDoone says:

    You need to pay attention to your links, CT7.

    “What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about”

    Not one word about police talking to the witness.

    You are doing a nice job of demonizing the kid with nothing. You should be proud of yourself.

    Add to that the constant reference to “race” and you have the schtick down pat.

  28. LornaDoone says:

    “And the real pictures of TM are now available. He does not look like the ones in the MSM. And she apologized for the photos.”

    What makes them “real” this time? Because the picture looks like what you want it to?

    As to Malkin’s apology – she is savvy enough to know that you check your sources thoroughly before publishing. No one remembers the apology (I can’t even find it), but the picture sure went viral. Malkin has been playing this game for years. She made Brietbart look civil.

  29. alindasue says:

    Dave98373 said, “His hands. They were busy slamming another man’s head against the concrete multiple times.”

    BigSwingingRichard said, “…to defend yourself against someone who hits you in the face, knocks you to the ground and then proceeds to pound your head into the concrete?”

    I think that both of you might find the following ABC News article and accompanying video footage interesting:

    Trayvon Martin Video Shows No Blood or Bruises on George Zimmerman

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3PCxNWXuqy

    Blood from a bloody nose can be cleaned up, but if his head had been pounded by fists and slammed into the concrete multiple times, where are the bruises and abrasions?

  30. Keep cool everyone. It will all come out eventually, I hope. We already know the investigation was mishandled. I want to see what the grand jury says.
    One thing for sure is proved. More guns equals more gun deaths.

  31. took14theteam says:

    And more knives equal more knife deaths.

    And more poison equals more poisen deaths.

    And…

    We can’t legislate away the evil in humans.

    Maybe we should spend a little more time reintroducing the value of human life that seems to have been diminished as of late.

  32. “His hands. They were busy slamming another man’s head against the concrete multiple times”

    And yet as alindasue has already pointed out, the video of Zimmerman at the police station shows no blood, no contusions, no scrapes, no nothing. And the undertaker who prepared Trayvon Martin’s body said Martin’s hands were unmarked and showed no signs of having been in a fight.

  33. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Alinda, it has been reported that the police report identified Zimmerman having cuts, abrasions, and injuries to the back of his head.

  34. This letter is wrong on so many levels it just makes me sad to see how someone can think like this when a young man has died. To try a score political points off the death of someone are just plain wrong and in fact is it shameful. The same goes for some of comments here that seem to go to any length to justify the killing of a young man, and those that have should be ashamed of themselves.

    Again I’m sorry but this is beyond the pale, I can take the back and forth about a given political/philosophical topic of the day but some the comments here just make me sick to my stomach.

  35. Sonofwashington says:

    I can’t agree more that so many have diminished the value of human life lately. Many on this thread seem to think that the value of Trayvon Martin’s life is of little value because he got suspended from school and MAY HAVE punched a much larger guy carrying a gun and stalking him.

    It is also notable that so many on the right have devalued life so much that they would rather see many children and families suffer for lack of universal health care in our country, and that so many, particularly minorities, are sent into our prisons for years for minor drug charges, and the quality of our lives in general, to include environemental and consumer protections, must always be subordinated to the great profiteers of America. When the pursuit of profit trumps the people and their prosperity, then all our lives are devalued.

  36. alindasue says:

    BigSwingingRichard said, “Zimmerman having cuts, abrasions, and injuries to the back of his head.”

    So, if you followed the link to the ABC News report, you saw the video. If he has “cuts, abrasions, and injuries to the back of his head”, where are they? His very closely cropped hair isn’t long enough to be concealing them.

    The heart of this whole controversy is accuracy of the police reports themselves and the fact that very little evidence was gathered at the scene of the incident. People want a proper investigation because there’s clearly more to this story than Mr. Zimmerman’s telling of the events.

  37. alindasue says:

    Sonofwashington said, “I can’t agree more that so many have diminished the value of human life lately.”

    Amen. It’s a very sad turn of events.

  38. Dave,
    Had Zimmerman not attacked Trayvon, he would not have had his head bounced off the pavement.

    In other words, Trayvon stood his ground and defended himself from an unwarranted attack.

    BSR – to repeat –
    Had Zimmerman not attacked Trayvon, he would not have had his head bounced off the pavement.

    In other words, Trayvon stood his ground and defended himself from an unwarranted attack.

  39. Frankenchrist says:

    The right-wing continues to spew their vile lies and outright fabrications. They have learned much from their heros, Dr. Goebbels and Chancellor Hitler.

  40. SandHills says:

    Looneydoone – like al queda mentions the crusades, are you stating there is still a lot of “payback” coming.

    You and that Jet Blue pilot must come from the same gene pool.

  41. aislander says:

    Okay, that’s twice in this thread. Both fascism and Nazism were creatures of the left–just different brands of socialism, along with that other monstrous evil: communism…

  42. Constance V. Walden, University Place. Either you’re very young or you don’t get out much? Racism is everywhere, in every race, & in every country. Also their’s racism against those in their own race.I had black friend who hated other blacks I tried to remind him that he was black himself but he didn’t care he still hated them.

  43. tellnolies says:

    “proceeds to pound your head into the concrete?”

    From the video released yesterday, that appears highly doubtful.

    His pursuit, after being told to wait for police, makes it appear he was angry, not fearful. Charges need to be filed, this was not self defense.

    …aislander, keep repeating that often enough and some will believe you. I’m sure you know who perfected that tactic. “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it” Joeseph Goebbels

  44. tellnolies says:

    Here’s what the originator of Fascism had to say about it:

    “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”
    Benito Mussolini

  45. Racism is alive and well in the republican/conservative party.

  46. “Both fascism and Nazism were creatures of the left–just different brands of socialism”

    Not only is that the dumbest thing I ever heard it’s an outright lie.

  47. “This letter took real courage to write…”

    If it’s courageous to openly admit you are a racist, then yeah it took courage.

  48. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Sorry for the diversion from the topic, but someone else brought it up so…

    From the “father of Fascism”:

    “”The Socialist party reaffirms its eternal faith in the future of the Workers’ International, destined to bloom again, greater and stronger, from the blood and conflagration of peoples. It is in the name of the International and of Socialism that we invite you, proletarians of Italy, to uphold your unshakeable opposition to war”.

    From an article by Mussolini that was published in the Socialist Party newspaper “Avanti!” of September 22, 1914, during Mussolini’s Marxist period.

    Not goin’ down this rabbit hole again, just sayin’. People who make assumptions that fit their political view and are neither receptive to the truth, nor willing to “open their minds” to it by doing a bit of elementary research are not worth the distraction.

    Let them believe what they want to believe as long as they keep it to themselves.

  49. Spiderweb says:

    You’re take is a bit selective as well Vox. Got it that you, and Aislander, don’t like “The Left”. However, that doesn’t make everything you don’t like part of “the left”.

    “A major event that greatly influenced the development of fascism was the October Revolution of 1917 in which Bolshevik communists led by Vladimir Lenin seized power in Russia.[56] Since World War I fascists have commonly campaigned on anti-Marxist agendas.”

    (wiki)

    Benito Mussolini consolidated control over the Fascist movement in 1919 with the founding of the Fasci italiani di combattimento, whose opposition to socialism he declared:

    We declare war against socialism, not because it is socialism, but because it has opposed nationalism. Although we can discuss the question of what socialism is, what is its program, and what are its tactics, one thing is obvious: the official Italian Socialist Party has been reactionary and absolutely conservative. If its views had prevailed, our survival in the world of today would be impossible.”

    Oh, and Ronald Reagan was a Democrat at one point in time. I guess he’s just another lefty eh? ROFLMAO, Ronald Reagan, socialist extraodinaire!!! (

  50. With all the strongly worded posts, imagine what Trayvon’s parents were going through for almost a month before this hit national news when their son was dead and seemingly nothing being done about it. They deserve justice for their son.

  51. LornaDoone says:

    Well, well, well –

    “Police at the scene said the 28-year-old shooter was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, and Zimmerman’s lawyer said his client suffered a broken nose from Martin’s punch.

    But no blood or bruising is visible in the video taken by a police surveillance camera that shows uniformed officers leading a handcuffed Zimmerman into the police station, nor are there blood stains visible on his clothes.

    ABC obtained the video from Sanford authorities, who said it would be made available on the city’s website.

    Zimmerman appears much leaner in the video than in the image that has been in the media, a 2005 mug shot taken after his arrest for a confrontation with a police officer. His head is almost completely clean shaven in the video, offering a clear view of the back, which shows no discoloration.

    “This certainly doesn’t look like a man who police said had his nose broken and his head repeatedly smashed into the sidewalk,” said Benjamin Crump, a civil rights lawyer representing Martin’s family who has been calling for Zimmerman’s arrest for weeks.”

  52. “during Mussolini’s Marxist period.”

    The far right can’t help but tell lies to cover their other lies.

  53. LornaDoone says:

    Spider – get ready for the “wiki isn’t realiable” claim.

    Any of us that took world history know who was what, but we are not part of the rewrite history crew. Congrats to you that you found something on wiki that the Heritage Foundation likely hasn’t touched yet.

  54. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    alindasue,
    Zimmerman had been cleaned-up by paramedics prior to his arrival at the police station.

    From the ABC gasoline-on-the-fire piece:

    The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning.

    (His lawyer – and by some reports, the police report – has stated Zimmermann received numerous contusions and abrasions and was treated the following day for a broken nose.)

    In the video an officer is seen pausing to look at the back of Zimmerman’s head, but no abrasions or blood can be seen in the video and he did not check into the emergency room following the police questioning.

    Actually, if you’ve watched the video, ABC placed their logo over Zimmerman’s head for most of the time he’s standing in the garage (nice work ABC, I’m sure you weren’t trying to get anyone worked up over this… right?). But when he walks away, and out of the strategically-placed logo, you can see what appears to be a contusion on the crown of Zimmerman’s skull – but only for a fraction of a second. Once he enters the building the back of his head is never in view of the security camera, and the lighting is so bright and distorted that nothing can be gleaned from the inside footage.

    The heart of this whole controversy is accuracy of the police reports themselves and the fact that very little evidence was gathered at the scene of the incident.

    And those police reports as well as the witness’ statements are sealed pending a grand jury impanelment. How ’bout we cut the speculation crap and all of the aspersions flying both ways until the official account is revealed.

    People want a proper investigation because there’s clearly more to this story than Mr. Zimmerman’s telling of the events.

    What exactly is “clear” about it at this point? The only thing “clear” is that Zimmerman – who may or may not be guilty of a crime – has been tried and convicted by the usual trolls, poverty pimps, and race baiters, with the willing assistance of their lackeys in the media, and the lynch mob is chanting “hang the racist” outside of his door right now.

    Is it too much to ask that Zimmerman be given his due process? I mean, aren’t you lefties the least bit hesitant to go down this road…YET AGAIN?

  55. LornaDoone says:

    A right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with a totalitarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism.

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/fascism#ixzz1qW9vmKdi

    Source: Oxford Dictionary of Politics

  56. yabetchya says:

    kluwer says @6:29……“This letter took real courage to write…”
    If it’s courageous to openly admit you are a racist, then yeah it took courage

    Get a clue klew…Constance is an African American woman.

  57. aislander says:

    Sorry, for the diversion from the topic, but I didn’t create it. Two lefties accused conservatives of being fascists and I responded to that.

    Both Hitler and Mussolini declared their continued devotion to the principles of socialism (even though their real devotion was to solidifying their own power).

    Their main difference with soviet communism–with which they were in competition for the same demographic–was nationalism versus internationalism. They still proffered collective solutions to perceived problems.

    Ask yourself this question: What would be the most effective method for acquiring power in a nation: promoting solidarity with workers all over the world or utilizing existing nationalism to unite people within your own borders? THAT was the salient difference between communists and the fascists and Nazis.

    Neither of the latter were limited-government conservatives…

  58. LornaDoone says:

    Due process doesn’t include lies about what happened foistered by the right wing press.

    Arrest him, as was done in the “self defense” case in Pierce County in the past two days.

    “the usual trolls, poverty pimps, and race baiters”

    This coming from someone who claims to want “due process” for someone.

    “aren’t you lefties the least bit hesitant to go down this road…YET AGAIN?”

    Note the change in tone. Since most everything alleged about Zimmerman’s innocence is falling apart, they’ve now taken to condescending statements, as if conservatives have always been right about whose side they stood on. Remember Byron De La Beckwith?

    Maybe the Rightees should take a second look and stop defending someone when a child can tell his story stinks

  59. LornaDoone says:

    “Get a clue klew…Constance is an African American woman”

    And this excuses her from the ability to be a racist?

    Frankly, I’d like to meet her or see a picture. All I’ve seen is a lot of right wing rhetoric in a newspaper LTE that they make phone calls to qualify as honest.

  60. Constance takes her stand based on her political persuasion not on the facts in the case. Her reference to Obama, Jackson and Sharpton has nothing to do with Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.

  61. LornaDoone says:

    I’m sure glad that Leonard Pitts can no longer be a racist in the eyes of a conservative. He’s an African American man.

  62. aislander says:

    By the way, the whole fascism-and-Nazism-are-rightist trope was created by Stalin’s propaganda machine, which also accused Leon Trotsky and American Socialist Norman Thomas of being rightists.

    Perhaps if you read some history that isn’t filtered through lefty academics with axes to grind…

  63. LornaDoone says:

    But, Obama, Jackson and Sharpton can’t be racist because…oh nevermind.

  64. LornaDoone says:

    “A right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with a totalitarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism.”

    If we can move away from the history rewrite lesson for a moment, there was my intentional use of “facist”, as noted in the Oxford Dictionary of Politics.

  65. LornaDoone says:

    Hey, aislander, I have a great idea. Let’s argue about inane definitions of “facism” so that you don’t have to manufacture the latest “proof” that George Zimmerman is innocent.

    I’ve been waiting for “he can’t be guity, I just bought a suit from him”, but so far that hasn’t surfaced anywhere.

  66. LornaDoone says:

    “He can’t be guilty, I guarantee it” LOL

  67. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Said I wasn’t going down this rabbit hole again, spider. But I have to laugh at your lack of grasp of an obvious distinction between the founding of Fascism (by Mussolini) out of marxist/ socialist doctrine (albeit, fused with statism), and the matriculation of Reagan to neo-liberalism.

    Simply put, Musolini – a socialist – took socialism to a new level with the creation of fascism and the Fascist party – Reagan switched from one existing political party to another.

    And while you wouldn’t get much of an argument these days, the Democrat party in 1962 (year of Reagan’s official party switch) was anything but socialist. Given Reagan hadn’t voted for a Democrat for president (and hardly anything else) since Truman, your comparison seems doubly specious.

    ‘Nuff sed… back to the topic.

  68. aislander says:

    So…how can a political orientation that advocates reducing the size and power of government be the same as one that advocates increasing the size and power of government?

  69. aislander says:

    Hey, mucki, I have a great idea: stop accusing people of being fascists and we won’t have to deal with it…

  70. aislander says:

    “LornaDoone” writes: “(take a look at the posts on these threads from our local fascist right wing)”

  71. LornaDoone says:

    Islander and LornaDoone writes:

    “A right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with a totalitarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism.”

    But don’t let that get in the way of your history rewrite session.

    Just for your information, I’ve been accused of having my stalker removed from the comments, so calling me by his/her name is probably going to put you at odds with “Took14″

  72. LornaDoone says:

    That should read “Aislander – and LornaDoone writes”

    I wouldn’t want to credit where credit isn’t due.

  73. aislander says:

    My 8:22AM question still stands…

  74. LornaDoone says:

    diversion

    Since there is a video that demonstrates Zimmerman wasn’t beaten and audio of him using profanity directed at Martin, as well as racial slurs, I guess it’s time to avoid this topic and move along to something comfortable as as obsure as possible.

    I’m waiting for the next excuse.

  75. LornaDoone says:

    ““A right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with a totalitarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism.”

    Try as you might, you won’t find anything about “size of government” in that definition from the Oxford Dictionary of Politics.

    Now, I am intregued that a political sector alleged they want to reduce the size of goverment, but when in power, they increased government to its largest ever.

    Oh, now I’ve gone and done it. I left the back door open.

  76. aislander says:

    ====sticking his shortbread fingers into ears and repeating mantra to avoid dealing with facts====

  77. LornaDoone says:

    aislander – I guess you have the right to prove that the Oxford Dictionary of Politics is incorrect.

    We’ll watch you.

    As to “size of government”:

    - Abe Lincoln – 1527% increase in spending; this is obviously due to the huge expenditures for the Civil War.
    – FDR – 836% increase. Again, massive war spending skewed his numbers.
    – George W. Bush: 87% increase. (Though only 73% if you lop off the last year and don’t credit/blame him for the stimulus that passed in his last months.)
    – Ronald Reagan: 82% increase in federal spending during his tenure.

    Even if you want to attribute all the stimulus spending to Obama, that still only represents about a 20% increase in federal spending – somewhat less than any other President’s term in the past 45 years. Claims that he’s increased spending “more than any other President” are blatant exaggerations.

    Aren’t you guys always telling us that Abe Lincoln was a Republican?

  78. aislander says:

    Your source makes an assertion of opinion–not of fact–which YOU are obligated to support, if it does not. I have made a series of assertions of fact that I am perfectly prepared to back up.

    An argumentum ad verecundiam is no argument at all unless your authority is prepared to support its assertion.

    I am certain there is no possibility whatsoever that the author of the Oxford entry is a lefty academic with an axe to grind.

    Just for grins, you can take a look at what the American left was writing about fascism and Nazism before they (especially the latter) began committing embarrassingly bloody acts around Europe and Africa. It’ll give you some idea of why the left here ran away from its former support.

    Well, that and the fact the American left threw in with Soviet communism…

  79. Spiderweb says:

    lol, okay Vox & Aislander, I’ll leave you with a quote for you to ponder, from an actual lefty this time:

    “Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough” Karl Marx

    Enjoy the day….

  80. aislander says:

    Thanks, Spidey, for underlining the point of my last sentence…

  81. “Two lefties accused conservatives of being fascists and I responded to that.”

    With out right lies, that you repeated again.

  82. “Get a clue klew…Constance is an African American woman”

    So she can’t be racist then?

  83. alindasue says:

    Vox_clemantis_in_deserto said, “Zimmerman had been cleaned-up by paramedics prior to his arrival at the police station.”

    Paramedics can “clean-up” the blood, but abrasions, bruises, and the swelling that comes with a “broken nose” (particularly one that hasn’t been treated yet) don’t disappear that quickly. It would take a day or two before he would even begin to look that normal if he had been attacked in the manner that he claimed.

    The ABC “logo” is transparent and only covers the bottom of the screen and the back of Mr. Zimmerman’s head is clearly seen as soon as he is fully out of the car and continuing almost until he is led out of the room. His face isn’t clearly seen until the second segment in the other room because he was facing away from the camera during most of the first segment.

    I don’t know what you saw for “half a second” on the back of his head, but the rest of us are not seeing it. I don’t care how many times the story is repeated, that video does not show a man who was beat up and had his head repeatedly slammed into the cement only a short time before.

    I’m not looking at this as a racial issue (although I suspect the police might have been a little more vigilant about gathering evidence if the skin colors had been reversed). I firmly believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty – but that extents to Trayvon as well as to Mr. Zimmerman.

    Since Trayvon is no longer alive to give his side of the story, we have to rely on the evidence to tell it for us. Do to laziness, negligence, or whatever reason they didn’t collect the evidence from Mr. Zimmerman and others that would have told Trayvon’s side of the story – or even supported Mr. Zimmerman’s side, for that matter.

    So all the physical FACTS left for the news to report are that Trayvon was a teenager carrying Skittles and ice tea and that there is police video footage showing Mr. Zimmerman doesn’t seem to be as beat up as the police report and his statements claimed. If the police don’t have more evidence than that about the case, then some serious questions have to be asked about why.

  84. “how can a political orientation that advocates reducing the size and power of government be the same as one that advocates increasing the size and power of government?”

    Since when has the right ever decreased the size of Govt?

  85. One question for the righties, how can everything bad in the world come from and be born out of the the left?
    Have none of you ever taken a polysci course?

  86. aislander says:

    Easy question to answer: Individual freedom protected by laws that ensure a civil society (not laws that attempt to regulate almost every aspect of life, thus destroying freedom) is preferable to coercive government in every circumstance I can envision…

  87. aislander says:

    …oh, and where are the “outright lies?” Specifically?

  88. Aislander – the operative word is ‘were’. Today both ideologies are considered ultra right wing.

    The Republicans only talk about smaller, less intrusive governments when they don’t have the power to accomplish it. When they have the power (as they did for 6 years under Bush) that actively increase the size and power of the Federal government – except when it comes to deregulation of corporations and big businesses.

    Reading History does not seem to work for you. I suggest you try reading political science instead.

    For Vox, I suggest he have someone read the books to him.

    Vox –
    Any one bleeding from the back of the head will need more than a clean up. At the least, there should be a bandage if not stitches. Neither appears in the video.

    Have dealt with more than a few broken noses, I also did not see the swelling and discoloration that accomplishes said injury. Nor signs of abrasions or contusions.

    And (according to the coroner’s report) Trayvon’s hands did not display any marks that would support Zimmerman’s claims.

    Yabetcha – how do you know Constance’s race? Did a little fox tell you?

  89. “By the way, the whole fascism-and-Nazism-are-rightist trope was created by Stalin’s propaganda machine”

    There’s one out right lie, you want more?

  90. “Easy question to answer:”

    And yet you failed….

  91. aislander says:

    Get outta here, you knucklehead…

  92. When all else fails……?

  93. aislander says:

    Hey, if someone’s not willing to have a serious discussion…

  94. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Spider quotes Marx, how fitting. even more so considering it was his last word. But maybe spider and Marx should have heeded Shakespeare’s advice:

    “The fool thinks himself to be wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

  95. LornaDoone says:

    “Oxford Dictionary of Politics” is lefty?????

    http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780192802767

    Speaking of “serious discussions”

    Now I’ve seen it all.

    Take me Lord. ‘lizabeth, honey, I’m comin’….

  96. LornaDoone says:

    Between Vox and Aislander the thread is now gone. We’ll no longer discuss the FACTS of the case against Zimmerman.

  97. LornaDoone says:

    “Any one bleeding from the back of the head will need more than a clean up. At the least, there should be a bandage if not stitches. Neither appears in the video.
    Have dealt with more than a few broken noses, I also did not see the swelling and discoloration that accomplishes said injury. Nor signs of abrasions or contusions.”

    Here we go. The audio tape isn’t right, the police video isn’t right. The excuses just keep coming.

    I’m finding how “he had grass on his back” and “Martin pounded his head on the concrete” to be just slightly contradictory, but what the hey?

    Xring, you’ve dealt with these clowns enough to know that if you had video proof of John Boehner playing golf with Satan that they would deny Satan exists

    As to Constance’s race – she usually finds a way to say “I’m a black woman” in her letters. I’m not sure how she missed this opportunity.

  98. SandHills says:

    Yes looneydoone, lets stay on topic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BkC1OJVVA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    These incidents happen much to often, and if it is black on white violence it is not considered a hate crime – to some, especially over the top liberals like you, it is merely seen as “payback” for any and all mistreatment of blacks in the past.

    Again, not unlike Al Queda claims that the Crusades provide them excuses for their violence.

  99. LornaDoone says:

    Sandhills – why do you people keep bringing up the race issue? This is an “armed man shot an unarmed kid” issue. The ONLY thing that makes it a race issue is the racist slur by Zimmerman.

    The video you submit is two soccer players getting in a fight over one tripping the other. If this is something new to you, you have avoided soccer for a long time.

    I’ve seen quite a few fights since I like to watch high school football and I don’t usually keep track of black and white athletes that are part of the fights.

  100. LornaDoone says:

    SandHills – just out of curiousity, what happened up until that 54 seconds of tape? Was there an issue between the two girls prior that wasn’t addressed by the referees? Were there any racial slurs spewed about? (we know THAT never happens in South Carolina, right) Is there history between the two teams? I could go on for hours with logical questions about 54 seconds of video, but I don’t think you want logic.

  101. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    You know, I’d ask shortbread and spider how they view themselves vis-s-vis the Shakespeare quote I posted, but I’m afraid that would be a loaded question.

    On the topic:

    Why is it not in the narrative of the left, both here and nationally, that this should be allowed to play-out? A quick read of this thread alone leads one to conclude most far-left contributors have little doubt this was a hate crime.

    Setting aside the 600-pound gorilla – that talking points like the phony “war on women” and political moves like removing tax write-offs for oil producers (failed in the Democrat-controlled Senate today, 51 – 47), not to mention the debacle taking place in the SCOTUS with 0bamacare, as well as 0bama’s budget fiasco (lost in the House today 414 – 0 – not even a Democrat vote?) are all blowing up in their collective little red faces, what possible benefit to the them would another ginned-up supposed race-based incident be?

    For the benefit of our resident legal term expert, comment critic (only), and pseudo-intellectual prominence, that would be a rhetorical question.

  102. Where’s all of the outrage over the two British tourists who were gunned down by a black teenager? Oh, that’s right, it doesn’t fit the liberal’s agenda does it? Anyway they were just white Euopeans so they don’t count. I don’t see their parents over here trying to make a buck off of their tragedy. I also don’t see “brutha” Al Sharpton, (the funniest man on television), and “brutha” Jesse Jackson spreading their hate about that story.

  103. BlaineCGarver says:

    Business for Jackson and Sharpton has been slow of late, and they need the “usefull idiots” of the press and gullable Lefties to succeed….need I say more? I wonder when the movie will be out?

  104. Don’t be surprised if Spike Lee doesn’t make a movie about the life of Trayvon Martin. He likes to make a fast buck as quick as anyone else.

  105. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    He likes to make a fast buck as quick as anyone else.

    Well he may need a few “fast bucks” after these two get through with him:

    http://gothamist.com/2012/03/29/spike_lee_apologizes_for_retweeting.php

    What an idiot.

  106. LornaDoone says:

    OK. Here we go. Left turn.

    Let’s make this a Spike Lee issue since our last chance for Zimmerman’s innocence just fell on its keester.

    Can we reincarnate Martin Luther King, bring up about his infidelities and focus a new story to avoid dealing with the Zimmerman issue?

    How about bringing up the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair? We haven’t dusted that one off in awhile. Ted Kennedy, anyone? How about brother Jack’s dalliance with Marilyn?

    Oh, I know. Let’s bring up Al Gore’s claim he invented the internet! Then we’ll follow that with Obama’s birth certificate and a video from 1951 that proves Obama is a Muslim.

    There are lots of things to talk about to avoid taking about how Zimmerman’s innocence stories are running out of traction.

    The humor in this tragedy is Zim’s daddy doing an interview behind a blind (as if no one already knows him) and quoting Martin while Martin was attacking his baby boy. Only one problem. It seems the police video doesn’t support the alleged attack.

  107. LornaDoone says:

    Spike already made a movie about this – “Do The Right Thing”.

    The players might not be the same, but the story is an old and often repeated theme.

    We all know how much Spike is hurting for money.

  108. “Zimmerman had been cleaned-up by paramedics prior to his arrival at the police station.”

    And all those cuts and contusions were so severe that they didn’t even require a band-aid. I’m surprised he didn’t bleed out.

  109. “A quick read of this thread alone leads one to conclude most far-left contributors have little doubt this was a hate crime.”

    ROFLMAO – the first mention of the words “hate crime” was by a right-winger. The second mention of the words “hate crime” was by you. Keep on being funny, Voxie!

  110. LornaDoone says:

    It’s one thing to clean blood off someone, but if the attack was enough to make him fear for his life, wouldn’t the back of his head show abrasions and bruises?

    I don’t see the lefties saying “hate crime”. I do see the righties doing it. Frequently.

    Sort of like your mom calls you inside and you say “I didn’t take any cookies”. Her response? “I was calling you in to ask if you wanted to go to the movies.”

  111. LornaDoone says:

    “This “kid” with “skittles” who already has a criminal record at 17″

    A great example of the lies. Martin has no criminal record. There have been allegations from the school security force, but no arrests and no record. Yet, somehow Dave feels it’s OK to repeat he has a criminal record.

  112. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The humor in this tragedy is Zim’s daddy doing an interview behind a blind…

    Yeah, that’s just hilLarryous, isn’t it. The fact that, like the innocent folks who just happened to live at the address of a house owned by a completely different George Zimmerman, Zimmerman’s dad – hell, his whole family now must live in fear of their lives.

    Ha Ha Ha.

    What a pathetic tool.

  113. frosty, you ask: “Where’s all of the outrage over the two British tourists who were gunned down by a black teenager?”

    There was a lot of outrage over the killing of the two tourists in the black as well as white communities.

    The black community in Sarasota was outraged that a known gang member was let go and not taken to Juvenile detention when he shot his gun off in public. The police did not bother to send a detective to the hearing, so there was no evidence on which to hold him. He went out and immediately shot the tourists in an attempted robbery.

    The difference between that case and this one (besides the botched police actions) is that this killer was tried and convicted.

    The righteous outrage over cold-blooded killing in that case is tempered by the justice system giving appropriate punishment for the crime. Neither liberals nor conservatives think that the convicted killer in the tourist slaying should be let go even if he had given a statement to police saying that those two white people should not have been inside a notorious gang bar, and were threatening him by their presence there.

    However, I have seen many conservatives say that Trayvon brought the killing on himself because he was seen walking in a white gated community and happened to be wearing a hoodie so he looked “suspicious” and threatening.

  114. LornaDoone says:

    Twist it, turn it, tie it in a knot.

    “The fact that, like the innocent folks who just happened to live at the address of a house owned by a completely different George Zimmerman, Zimmerman’s dad – hell, his whole family now must live in fear of their lives.”

    Maybe we can blame Harry Truman for authorizing the first nuclear bombs on Japan and that people who live in fear of nuclear fall out should know that it was Harry’s fault.

    I’m wondering what “so and so”, who lives at “such and such” has to do with a 17 year old being gunned down by George Zimmerman. Let’s see how far off the subject of Zimmerman’s “innocence” we can get.

    By the way, if we can get a personal slur into our diversions, so much the better. After all, we ARE conservatives and that’s how we roll.

    George Zimmerman’s father is a retired judge and probably not hard to identify if one wanted to. So why the blind during the interview? I guess it does add to the hyperbole a bit. Meanwhile, how about measuring the content of what Dad said, which is the important part. I would appear that all of the alleged threats were rather impotent considering there are no signs of injury on Georgie.

    It would appear that certain members of this discussion have lost their cool and are on the verge of creating problems for themselves. Sticking to the subject might help.

  115. “What a pathetic tool. “

    Ahem. Message. Messenger. Ring any bells?

  116. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Well, Cookie, what is the subject?

    A man declared guilty by the media and those who make a living off of race?

    What level of evidence is required to make an immediate arrest? Is that evidence present in this case?

    What is life threatening? Who determines that?

    What right do you have to inquire into someone’s business when they are walking between houses (not on the street of sidewalk) and they are not know to the neighborhood?

    Do you have a right to ignore the police on the phone?

    Was the media biased by reporting Zimmerman as white, then a white-hispainic? Is BHO a white-black?

  117. Why haven’t charges been filed against the Black Panthers who openly put a bounty on the head of a presumed innocent person? Remember, in this country a person is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Or does that only apply in other instances? I can’t wait to see the results of a trial once ALL of the evidence is presentd, not just the “evidence” contrived by “brutha” Al Sharpton.

  118. At what point is a person supposed to feel that his life is in danger? After one, two or three punches? How many times is an assailant allowed to bang your head into the ground before you retaliate with deadly force? Can anyone come up with a number for that?

  119. Amazing how the far right gets away with breaking the rules around here isn’t it?

  120. sevenstrokeroll says:

    As long as “Ritghies” pursue the Faux News Network as a singular provider of information…then arguing you do not support Fascism is specious and shallow. Think about it and review a definition of “Fascism”

    The reality here is that by defending Zimmerman prior to investigation, you are denying yourself and every other American the right to due process and justice. If that is what you want…it is clear you need to move to Florida. And frankly, gives a heck of a lot of credence to suggestion that the the GOP should be renamed the American Fascist Party…are you guys for real? Fear is (apparently) a powerful drug?

  121. aislander says:

    That makes three. Fascism is left wing and always was. PLEASE read some history–original sources only, though.

    It’s not Vox and me who are dragging this thread off-topic. As long as lefties (er…fascists?) want to name-call, I’m ready to respond.

    To get back to the topic: this and the “war on women” is all about stirring up the base. If the sinister ones are worried about THAT, their internal polling must be dismal.

  122. sevenstrokeroll, I say again, in case it went over your head. “A person is presumed to be innocent until proven in guity in a court of law”. Even a liberal should be able to understand that, or do you believe that brutha Al Sharpton should be the decider in all cases involving racial incidents? Get a life.

  123. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Yeah, you’re right, I meant “tools”.

    “Fascist” alert.

    The reality here is that by defending Zimmerman prior to investigation, you are denying yourself and every other American the right to due process and justice.

    Okay… dumbest comment of the thread.

    First of all, you need to brush-up on the 14th Amendment, because “due Process” “doesn’t mean what you think it does”. Secondly, “yourself and every other American” are overwhelmingly not currently subject to the same legal proceedings as Zimmerman… I hope.

    No one is “defending Zimmerman”. But everyone should be defending his right to due process, lest the shoe end up on “yourself and every other American(s)” foot.

  124. alindasue says:

    concernedtacoma7 said, “…those who make a living off of race?”

    Those who make a living off of race (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al) attach themselves to nearly every issue that’s hot in the news whether the issue is race related or not, they feel the need to make it so. While their sideshow makes a lot of noise and attracts attention, it has no bearing on the actual events themselves.

    “What is life threatening?”

    If I were visiting a relative in another town and decided to go to the store nearby for some snacks, and then on the way back to my relative’s house some man with a gun started following me, I would consider that pretty life threatening.

    “Do you have a right to ignore the police on the phone?”

    I don’t know. Ask Mr. Zimmerman. While he was ignoring the instructions of the 911 operator, Trayvon Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend… or were you referring to some totally different (off topic) situation?

  125. LornaDoone says:

    Let’s demonize the Oxford Dictionary of Politics (as if “leftie” was really demonizing anyway).

    This is really getting funny. All of the tactics that were used in failure to attempt to demonize Trayvon Martin are now being rolled out for whichever attack is next.

    “No one is defending Zimmerman”, they are just smearing the crap out of a 17 year old dead kid so that Zimmerman gets “due process” (as if being out of jail isn’t enough already)

    “He wasn’t charged with a crime and you and your ilk are calling for his head” – just one more spew of hyperbole from you know who. I haven’t seen anyone call for his head, but I have seen someone ask that he be arrested and held while the investigation takes place. We have exactly that situation going on in Pierce County with a “self defense” case. We’ve already had the lead homicide investigator step up and say he wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but was not allowed (possibly Judge Daddy is on the case?)

    I can’t wait for the next round of baseless excuses followed by “I don’t care what the Oxford Dictionary of Politics says”

    I’m certain that Aislander’s opionions are published works that are used in Political Science courses nationwide.

  126. LornaDoone says:

    Thank you alindasue. I’m growing tired of repeating the facts of the case over and over and over. I feel like I’m talking to a child.

    I just must ask of you, why speak negatively about Jackson, Sharpton and so forth? Do they not have a right to address what they see wrong in America? I thought they enjoyed the First Amendment just like everyone else.

    If Andrew Brietbart were alive and at an OCCUPY rally screaming at people as he was known for, the conservatives would applaud him and say he was a patriotic American.

    Black leaders are no different. If there was no racism, could they “live off race”? They are playing the hand that is dealt.

  127. took14theteam says:

    Just for your information, I’ve been accused of having my stalker removed from the comments, so calling me by his/her name is probably going to put you at odds with “Took14″

    What are you talking about shortbread? I am not at odds with aislander.

    And who was your alleged stalker?

    And to use a phrase from BHO They acted stupidly (with regard to the media and the Democrats).

  128. LornaDoone says:

    “Why was he not charged? Some grand conspiracy?”

    I think it’s sinking in. Slowly.

  129. took14theteam says:

    If you are growing tired repeating the alleged facts, then why are you still taking up bandwidth here?

  130. aislander says:

    Nobody’s “demonizing” the Oxford Dictionary, but its conclusion is so removed from what the evidence shows that one has to believe that the author of the entry is invested in protecting the image of the left, OR he used a secondary source that had that motive. This whitewash of the left has been going on since WWII, after all.

    Those leaders could “live off race” by ginning up some racism–even if it really didn’t exist in that case. Corporations, for example don’t want to be associated with even a whiff of racism, and if one has Jesse Jackson picketing its headquarters, it pays off…

  131. LornaDoone says:

    “If you are growing tired repeating the alleged facts, then why are you still taking up bandwidth here?”

    I’m somewhat like Diogenes – seeking the one honest conservative. Had I found one I probably would have quit by now.

    Besides, who would you and your half dozen personalities obsess over if not me?

  132. LornaDoone says:

    Let’s see. All of the reference books available are not correct unless they coincide with Aislander’s definitions that were ginned up by…wait a minute…

    Has anyone else notice that for all of Aislander’s verbal gumbo on “fascism”, there is not one reference to a source?

    I guess we’ll have to just take his word for it, huh?

    ;)

  133. took14theteam says:

    Besides, who would you and your half dozen personalities obsess over if not me?

    Kay

    ::::::::Listens to the Twilight Zone music in my head…..::::::::

    If nothing else, at least I can take satisfaction in making you believe something that is not. :-)

  134. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I’m growing tired of repeating the facts of the case over and over and over.

    RONTLMFAOZ, now that is funny.

  135. concernedtacoma7 says:

    So, this thread shows the left (with Cookie/K_nos leading the charge) have no respect for the law, law enforcement, and the Constitution. They expect the law to follow their emotions, facts be damned.

    Just trying to get us back in topic, since one of the posters has attempted to take over the thread with childish whining.

  136. LornaDoone says:

    Zimmerman’s father: I don’t think he was on the phone with his girlfriend. The FBI should investigate this.

    Cell phone log – He was on the phone with his girlfriend.

    What is next?

  137. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The following are the “facts of the case” as reported by CNN – kindly show us where any of the malarkey you’ve been putting forth these last few days bears any resemblance:

    America will have to wait and see as State Attorney Angela Corey plunges deeper into a case charged with allegations of racism. Martin was African-American; Zimmerman is a Hispanic who, his family says, has been wrongly described as racist.

    What’s clear is that, as more is learned about this case, it becomes more complicated.

    The little information that has surfaced has been through 911 tapes, what Zimmerman told police and the accounts of witnesses who helped paint a picture of the night Martin died.

    Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket and blue jeans when he came across Martin on that night. He was a neighborhood watch member carrying a Kel-Tec 9 mm automatic pistol, according to a police report.

    He said he was on his way to a grocery store when he spotted Martin walking through the Retreat at Twin Lakes, according to the Orlando Sentinel, which pieced together an account of what happened based on leaked information from investigators.

    Sanford police said the newspaper account “is consistent with the information provided to the State Attorney’s office by the police department.”

    Martin was visiting his father’s fiancee, who lived in the gated community in Sanford, a racially mixed northern suburb of Orlando.

    Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person. He described Martin as black and said he was acting strangely and could have been on drugs.

    Zimmerman said he got out of his SUV and followed Martin on foot.

    “Something’s wrong with him,” he told a 911 dispatcher, according to the contents of a call released by authorities. “Yep. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands.”

    The teenager started to run, Zimmerman said. A 911 dispatcher asked Zimmerman whether he was following Martin, and Zimmerman said he was. The dispatcher said Zimmerman did not need to do that.

    Zimmerman said he lost sight of Martin and began walking back to his SUV; Martin approached him, according to the Sentinel account.

    Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem; Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

    Martin said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, Zimmerman said, according to the Sentinel.

    Zimmerman said Martin pinned him to the ground and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. The police report described Zimmerman’s back as wet and covered with grass, as though he had been lying on the ground.

    Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head, the police report said.

    “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me,” Zimmerman told police.

    By the time police arrived on the scene, Martin was dead from a gunshot wound in the chest, according to Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee. The unarmed teenager was lying face-down.

    Zimmerman told police that he shot Martin. And that he did it in self-defense.

    Residents of the gated community heard the gunshot.

    Seven 911 calls released by authorities document their fear.

    Someone screams, “help, help!” in the background.

    “There were gunshots right outside my house. There’s someone screaming. I just heard a guy shot,” a neighbor says. “Hurry up, they are right outside my house.”

    Another man cries for help. Then the gunshot.

    “Hurry, please. … There’s someone screaming outside,” a neighbor whispers. “There’s a gunshot. Hurry up. … There’s someone screaming. I just heard a gunshot.”

    In another call, a woman begs the dispatchers to send help, saying someone is “screaming and hollering” for help.

    Moments later, she describes a light at the scene of the shooting.

    “Oh, my God,” she says. “There’s still somebody out there walking with a flashlight.”

    Zimmerman’s call to police was among the 911 tapes released by police. Some people hear what sounds like a possible racial slur. CNN enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN’s editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus on whether Zimmerman used a slur.

    It’s as plain as the pimple on your nose, shortbread, your aim is to obfuscate, distort, and generally get your ya-yas off by stirring things up – as usual.

  138. LornaDoone says:

    CT7 – do you have an American flag for your computer wallpaper? Probably about four or five hanging from the windows of your Kia.

    Stand up when the local TV/radio station signs off late at night with the National Anthem?

    “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.” – Sinclair Lewis

  139. LornaDoone says:

    Well Vox, we’ll have to start with the point that your “quote” is not something that originated with CNN. Take a look at paragraph 4 of

    http://usspost.com/joe-oliver-trayvon-martin-case-72433/

    Word for word the opening graph of your “quote”.

    Until we can ascertain the autheticity of your source, I’ll not comment on any of it.

    Credibility is first on the list. Nice try, though.

  140. LornaDoone says:

    and before you start screaming, USSPOST published one day before CNN, both of which are before the release of the police video, which makes most of Zimmerman’s claims null and void, and definitely questions the integrity of a couple of police officers, a police chief and a prosecutor.

  141. took14theteam says:

    “I’ll not comment”

    ::::::::snicker::::::

    Not gonna hold my breath……..

  142. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    “When fascism comes to America, it will carry the flag and the cross” – Sinclair Lewis

    At least you could get the quote from your card-carrying socialist and atheist hero right.

  143. LornaDoone says:

    ‘When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.’ – Sinclair Lewis

    Oh wow!!! another wording.

    Of course, Vox’s has to be right, unless Aislander posts one and then everyone is trumped. Why? Because Aislander says so.

    Copy and paste never fails.

  144. LornaDoone says:

    “Not gonna hold my breath……”

    I’ll not comment and you hold your breath, let’s see who gives in first

  145. aislander says:

    So…dispute a specific assertion and I’ll provide the reference. In the meantime, I’ll go back up-thread and see if I can’t tie up any loose ends. So this is the topic now, right?

  146. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Well Vox, we’ll have to start with the point that your “quote” is not something that originated with CNN.

    Focusing on the facts, Larna, and once again you’re wide left.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

    Clearly, you have no grasp of the meaning of “right” – noun, verb, or adjective. The CNN piece came out the same day as the re-post of it on usspost (see the url, above, where it clearly shows 2012/03/27), and was updated yesterday – after the lame attempt by ABC to fan the flames with their chyron-obstructed video.

    Gee… you don’t suppose this…usspost site may have cut and pasted the CNN piece without attribution do ya’?

  147. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    When socialism comes to America it will be wrapped in a stuffed suit and carrying the cross of “hope and change”. – Dennis Miller

    This.

  148. took14theteam says:

    “The One”

    Gawd it is so much fun watching the lefties justify and prop this community organizer up.

  149. Since this thread has totally gone off course and into a competition of quotes here is one I like:

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

    John Kenneth Galbraith

  150. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Oh, by all means, let the quote fest continue:

    “Liberals have many tails, and chase them all.” – Henry Louis Mencken

    A fool can put on his coat better than a wise man can put it on for him. The implications of that undermine most of the agenda of the political left. – Thomas Sowell

  151. stradivari says:

    FACT: Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed teen. FACT: The teen he shot has no criminal record and was not engaged in criminal activity at the time. FACT: Zimmerman continued to pursue Trayvon against the instruction of the 911 dispatcher. FACT: Witness accounts favorable to Trayvon were ignored or not given proper consideration by police. FACT: Zimmerman’s story has been revised several times through intermediaries. FACT: Police video shows there were was no blood or bruises on Zimmerman consistent with the kind of attack he claimed to have sustained before shooting Trayvon. FACT: The police medical examiner had Trayvon’s body for 3 days before releasing his body for anyone else to see. FACT: The funeral director who prepared Trayvon’s body for burial was unable to tell for certain whether or not Trayvon was shot in the chest or back. FACT: The same funeral director said there were no cuts or bruises on Trayvon’s hands or knuckles that you would expect to see on someone who had been in a fight. FACT: Zimmerman has violent history which includes the assault of a police officer and domestic violence against 2 women, 1 of which still has a restraining order against him. FACT: Police have not brought Zimmerman back in for questioning. FACT: Police have not arrested Zimmerman despite the surfacing of obvious holes in his initial story.

  152. “Fascism is left wing and always was.”

    And another out right lie.
    It’s incredible how they do it time and time again.
    How does a person go through life with their so closed?

  153. “Nobody’s “demonizing” the Oxford Dictionary, but its conclusion is so removed from what the evidence shows that one has to believe that the author of the entry is invested in protecting the image of the left, OR he used a secondary source that had that motive. This whitewash of the left has been going on since WWII, after all.”

    Aaaaah yes, the great left wing dictionary conspiracy, how could we have forgotten??

  154. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    FACT: Witness accounts favorable to Trayvon were ignored or not given proper consideration by police

    Untrue, not factual.

    FACT: Zimmerman’s story has been revised several times through intermediaries.

    Untrue, not factual.

    FACT: Police video shows there were was no blood or bruises on Zimmerman consistent with the kind of attack he claimed to have sustained before shooting Trayvon.

    Untrue, police video proves no such thing. However, the police report from the scene clearly states Zimmerman was “bleeding from the nose and the back of the head” – THAT would be a fact.

    FACT: The funeral director who prepared Trayvon’s body for burial was unable to tell for certain whether or not Trayvon was shot in the chest or back.

    FACT: The “funeral director” is not a pathologist. (Geez, is it really necessary to point that out?)

    FACT: The same funeral director said there were no cuts or bruises on Trayvon’s hands or knuckles that you would expect to see on someone who had been in a fight.

    FACT: See above.

    FACT: Zimmerman has violent history which includes the assault of a police officer and domestic violence against 2 women, 1 of which still has a restraining order against him.

    FACT: Eight years ago, Zimmerman was charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer.” According to records, the charges were reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program.

    FACT: Zimmerman was never charged with “domestic violence against 2 women” – that would be complete BS. An ex-girlfriend has a restraining order against him, and he has one against her – no charges were ever filed, no arrests – of either Zimmerman or his ez GF – were made.

    FACT: Zimmerman’s other “arrest” was a speeding ticket. (I guess that would make me a “criminal too.) The ticket was subsequently dismissed when the officer failed to show.

    FACT: (fakt)

    Noun:
    1. A thing that is indisputably the case.
    2. Information used as evidence or as part of a report.

    FACT: You don’t know/ understand the facts.

  155. LornaDoone says:

    Didn’t Thomas Sowell claim Obama wasn’t an American?

    Oh, nevermind.

    I see that Took14 didn’t keep holding her breath. Doggone it!

    Meanwhile –

    2005-CF-009525-A-O
    ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
    10/05/1983

    07/18/2005
    Div 10
    OKane, Julie H

    Criminal Felony
    Closed

    CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
    BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER
    2005-MM-010436-A-O
    ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
    10/05/1983

    07/18/2005
    Orlando
    Miller, W Michael

    Misdemeanor
    Closed

    CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE
    2005-DR-012980-O

    ZUAZO, VERONICA vs. ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE M

    08/09/2005
    Div 44
    44, TBA

    Domestic Violence
    Closed – SRS

    2005-DR-013069-O

    ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE M vs. ZUAZO, VERONICA A

    08/10/2005
    Div 46
    White, Keith F

    Domestic Violence
    Closed – SRS

    I’ll be the first to admit that Zimmerman’s daddy has been a good lawyer in terms of getting him off the hook, but that doesn’t change what happened.

  156. scooter6139 says:

    Thank you stradivari, that is a very good fact write up.

    The sad thing is that as soon as a fight occurs under this Stand Your Ground law, each combatant has the right to kill the other due to the “feeling” or imminent danger to themselves. Sounds like the old west, not Florida.

  157. LornaDoone says:

    “The “funeral director” is not a pathologist”

    A doctor isn’t necessarily a pathologist either, but after you work with enough bodies, you kinda get a little knowledge. I don’t think we don’t want doctors to decide the direction of a bullet while we are on the operating table, without consulting a pathologist first.

    This is the kind of shallow excuse making that really makes the conservatives look silly on this issus. It would be funny if not for the dead 17 year old.

  158. LornaDoone says:

    “Untrue, police video proves no such thing”

    Close your eyes and plug your ears while saying “lalalalalalala”

    The police video gives a very clear picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head as well as the front of his shirt. There are no abrasions on the back of his head that would come along with the need to clean blood as “reported” and there is no blood stains on the front of his shirt.

    You might ask “why would there be blood stains on the FRONT of his shirt?” Anyone that has ever broken their nose or seen someone with a broken nose will tell you that it’s a fountain of blood, with all those very small vessels and vains in the nose.

    Zimmerman could provide hospital records (claimed he went to the hospital the next day), sort of like the Martin family provided cell phone records. Did he provide the records? Sadly, no.

  159. LornaDoone says:

    I was giving CNN the credit of being one day more updated:

    “updated 5:24 PM EDT, Wed March 28, 2012″

    In either case, both sites published BEFORE the police video was released.

  160. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Larna @ 8:52 AM,

    Thanks for providing the paperwork for the very same charges I listed. The first two are for the same “resisting” incident. The third is one retraining order, (probably his GF), and the fourth is for the second restraining order (probably Zimmerman’s). But don’t take my word for it, by all means go to your favorite source of dirty yellow… journalism – msnbc:

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer

    Like I said; give it up Larna. Your fan is on fire along with your pants. The flames will consume you along with the rest of the race baiters who insist on trying their fellow Democrat in the media.

    (I probably shouldn’t care – one less vote for 0bama. But something about that whole 14th Amendment thingy…)

  161. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    A doctor isn’t necessarily a pathologist either…

    But a Medical Examiner is. I know you’ve already found Zimmerman guilty of everything going back to the shooting of MLK, but why not wait for the actual report before you cite the word of, uh-hum, a funeral director as having any bearing on the actualfacts of this case?

    Oh yeah, that’s right… doesn’t fit the current distraction/ democrat narrative.

  162. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    There are no abrasions on the back of his head that would come along with the need to clean blood as “reported”

    Yup’ police cover-up… just like you suspected, ‘eh shortbread.

  163. LornaDoone says:

    So, are we now saying that Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin because the funeral director isn’t a pathologist?

    Maybe it’s because Spike Lee tweeted an address. Possibly it was self defense because Martin looked like a Black Panther (sorry NEW Black Panther)

    There are a multitude of reasons why Zimmerman’s innocent, none of which have anything to do with the shooting.

    Those restraining orders…..for DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, right? Do you get restraining orders for domestic violence if you are innocent of domestic violence or never been a part of domestic violence?

    We all know that Zimmerman is a choir boy with no history of violence.

    In your world, OJ Simpson was innocent, wasn’t he?

    Let’s see how convoluted we can make the issue.

  164. LornaDoone says:

    Why do the conservatives make this a racial issue and a political issue? Does that make it feel better to them?

    Who would look up a voter’s registration on a killer?

    More convoluted minutiae

  165. took14theteam says:

    I am honored that you think I am Vox_.

    But, sadly, no $200 for you…

  166. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I was giving CNN the credit of being one day more updated:

    Why do you lie so? Let’s go to the “tape':

    LornaDoone
    MARCH 29, 2012 AT 6:05 PM

    USSPOST published one day before CNN

    You are clearly saying that usspost (whoever the hell they are) “published” the story I linked one day before CNN did. Patently false. usspost cut and pasted the CNN story, just like I said.

    The url on the linked CNN piece also clearly shows a date of 3/ 27/ 12, and the dateline of the same linked piece clearly states “updated 5:24 PM EDT, Wed March 28, 2012″ – many hours after the ABC farce debuted.

    Really, Larna, for someone so famously adept at fabrication, this is truly not you best “work”.

  167. LornaDoone says:

    Although I broke my nose(twice), I can’t testify as to what happens with a broken nose since I’m not a pathologist, medical examiner or physician.

    You see, this is the trail that the conservatives would like us to go down to prove that George Zimmerman is innocent.

    My guess is that Zimmerman was carrying a back up shirt just in case of something like this happening. I know Foghorn Leghorn says that he numbers his feathers just in case the Little Chicken Dude blows him up with his chemistry set, so there is no reason to think that Zimmerman didn’t carry a back up shirt just in case of a severe nosebleed.

  168. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Larna, you need to learn when to “genuflect” instead of “deflect”.

    Like dumb raw eggs for my omelet, you don’t know when you’re beaten, and will never admit it.

  169. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    You see, this is the trail that the conservatives would like us to go down to prove that George Zimmerman is innocent.

    Last vestige of the licked – straw man!

    No one is saying he’s “innocent”. Lots of wackos willing to put away their 14 Amendment chants and scream that he’s guilty though.

    “Zimmerman don’t need no stink in’ due process!”

  170. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Only twice?

    And in the police video you can see marks on the back of his head. Once again the K_nos is wrong.

  171. LornaDoone says:

    Frosty, CT7 and Vox all want to make this a political issue. I thought it was an issue about a dead 17 year old.

    Now, I’ve watched the video complete with stop action and close up of the back of Zimmerman’s head and I don’t see any abrasions. Nor do any of the media that report it, but I guess we can all be wrong and CT7 is right just because CT7 says so. So….

    Maybe CT7 can explain why there is no blood on the front of a man who broke his nose, that had been wrestling around with someone. Is Zimmerman the only person in America that doesn’t bleed when his nose is broken or was he just lucky enough to by lying on his back (as he and defenders claim) and defied the laws of gravity?

    As to the difference of “innocent” and “due process”, can one of you tell me why there is no arrest in the case until such time the case is investigated? That is what they did two days ago with a “self-defense” case in Pierce County. Are the laws that different in Florida or is Zimmerman getting preferential treatment for being the son of a local retired judge?

    I can’t justify “due process” of a questionable self-defense allowing the gunman to be on the loose, whereabouts unknown and still in possession of the gun, as far as we know.

    I do believe that other murder suspects have been treated otherwise in the history of law in the United States of America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave (I had to add that before CT7 went into his patriotic theme again)

  172. “Has anyone else notice that for all of Aislander’s verbal gumbo on “fascism”, there is not one reference to a source?”

    Hard to do when you make it up out of whole cloth.

  173. “Frosty, CT7 and Vox all want to make this a political issue.”

    Only if they can make the President look bad, even if they have to lie to do it.

  174. Vox – police video + marks = only in your dreams.

  175. concernedtacoma7 says:

    K$rd, the proof that he was in a fight are

    A) Zimmerman is not in jail
    B) Police report lists the injuries
    C) Witness reports

    You are really upset his father was a judge. What does that prove? Nothing, it has zero effect on this incident.

    Your technical analysis of the video is worthless. There were COPS and medical personnel at the scene. I will take their word over yours. So will the LAW.

    You can’t justify the due process? Well, thankfully you did not write the Constitution.

    And you can hate my patriotism, but as an American I cannot see your motive.

    Keep focusing on the distractions, while BHO makes insane promises to Russia, the economy stays in a rut, gas prices hammer all of us, Obamacare is failing in the SCOTUS, and the dems haven’t passed a budget in years (BHO’s could not even get ONE dem vote!).

    Feel free to wear a hoodie at your next concert. The Constitution gives you that right.

    Kluwless, BHO needs no help to look bad. One check of his record is all it takes. Look at how divided the country is today. A vote for him is a vote against your neighbor.

  176. LornaDoone says:

    “Usually he was just a cool guy. He liked to drink and hang with the women like the rest of us,” he said. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped.”

    The source said Zimmerman, who made between $50 and $100 a night, was let go in 2005.

    “He had a temper and he became a liability,” the man said. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-lost-job-party-security-guard-aggressive-ex-co-worker-article-1.1053223#ixzz1qeNu5lGU

  177. LornaDoone says:

    Strange. The still of the video that I saw was more clear and showed nothing.

    I do see this: The Daily Caller is a news website based in Washington, D.C., United States, with a focus on politics, original reporting and breaking news, founded by journalist and political pundit Tucker Carlson and Neil Patel, former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney. The Daily Caller launched on January 11, 2010.

    Would Tucker’s crew doctor up a picture? I hope not. I’d like to think that no one would resort to that.

    So, let’s say there was an abrasion. Where is the blood from the broken nose?

    A) Zimmerman is not in jail neither was OJ Simpson
    B) Police report lists the injuries police have never gotten involved in fixing cases when there are influential people involved?Why did the police chief step down?????
    C) Witness reports witnesses that are hiding. The two primary “witnesses” have been Joe Oliver and Daddy, both of whom are nothing but shills for Zimmerman. Please name ONE actual witness

    Due process? See Pierce County, Washington. “Self defense” killer arrested and jailed.

    And you can hate my patriotism, but as an American I cannot see your motive.

    Hate? You’ve got to be kidding me. I’m laughing my guts out everytime you pull out your faux patriotism that always includes anyone to the left of extreme right has no right to anything. You remind me of a caricature of yourself. Your “patriotism” is the most sad thing about you because it’s false patriotism.

    As to your baseless assertions about Russia, the economy, yadda yadda, blah blah – more of the same old talking points crap that has no substance at all.

    There was a time when I thought you were just Vox in another ID, but Vox is even smarter than what you portray, unless Vox is putting on a real good stupid act.

  178. LornaDoone says:

    “Obamacare is failing in the SCOTUS”

    And as long as we are going to speak of expertice, Barack Obama is a constitutional law lawyer and professor that graduated from Harvard. I’ll take his leads on constitutional law versus yours.

    75% of people polled have already said the Supreme Court will vote partisan on the health care reform, in other words, citizens have no confidence in the court to act in a non-partisan fashion. They understand that five of them are but puppets for the Republican Party who is doing nothing for Americans.

    Take insurance away from people that couldn’t get it due to pre-existing conditions, young adults that need their parents insurance, and then stick it to women with higher rates (as if the GOP needed to do something more to anger women) and you’ll have the definition of “winning the battle and losing the war”.

    The Supreme Court overturning the Affordable Health Care Act will be just exactly the final straw that will bury Mitt Romney in November. Remember, Mitt crafted the law that was the blueprint.

    Personally, I’m embarrassed when I hear the childish talking point arguments (broccoli) that the right wing justices have been throwing at counsel. They are not supposed to be there to argue, but to hear the case. Their arrogance won’t allow them to shut up and Americans are not stupid enough to not see the forest for the trees.

  179. aislander says:

    “…more of the same old talking points crap that has no substance at all.”

    None of the lefty coreligionists are ever guilty of that. You know: like calling people “fascist” when there is no history shared by that movement and the American right…

  180. LornaDoone says:

    Finally –

    “Democrats said Republicans had forced a vote on a version of Obama’s budget that contained only its numbers, not the policies he would use to achieve them.”

    Their vote against the budget was token to voice their opposition to the Republicans trying to railroad them. A rather nuanced approach that probably slips by citizens that don’t understand the political system and follow FOX a lot.

    The Democrats would not allow the Republicans to create vote fodder by holding the information behind their back.

    I don’t expect you to understand this part, but frankly I doubt that any Democrats were expecting your vote anyway.

  181. aislander says:

    You should be embarrassed when you hear the associate justice who helped “craft” Obamacare trying to help the pathetic Solicitor-General make his arguments so he didn’t embarrass himself.

    First, she should have recused herself. She has no business hearing this case.

    Second, it didn’t work. The Columbia Law School graduate and Law Review staffer proved himself to be just another lefty hack. Sorta like a certain Harvard Law and Law Review alumnus…

  182. “None of the lefty coreligionists are ever guilty of that. You know: like calling people “fascist” when there is no history shared by that movement and the American right…”

    Something that you made up and can’t even begin to substantiate.

  183. “First, she should have recused herself. She has no business hearing this case.”

    How do you feel about Clarence Thomas and his wife making a ton of money from the idiot teabaggers trying to kill the health care reform?
    You think he should recuse himself?
    How about the scum Scalia who dines, regularly, with the folks running another group lobbying to kill it as well?
    You think he should recuse himself?

    The hypocrisy on the right is as amazing as their refusal to see their own fascism.

  184. aislander says:

    So, you apparently wish to discuss fascism, huh? I’ll start by saying that I have no idea how to define it, but that puts me in the company of at least half the books I have read on the subject–which is several.

    The fact that scholars on the subject have such difficulty makes me distrust anyone who claims to have a definitive characterization–as the Oxford Dictionary of Politics does.

    What I do know is that the predicates to fascism cited by Mussolini are common to those embraced by the progressives in America.

    As for whether fascism is a creature of the right or left (and to address the role of Stalin in the sleight of hand of moving it from left to right), I can quote Tom Wolfe (no righty, he):

    “In the greatest hoax of modern history, Russia’s ruling ‘socialist workers party,’ the Communists, established themselves as the polar opposites of their two socialist clones, the National Socialist Workers Party (quicknamed ‘the Nazis,’ and Italy’s Marxist-inspired Fascisti, by branding both as ‘the fascists.'”

    If I had to name one defining characteristic of fascism, it would be opportunism cleaned up as “pragmatism.”

  185. concernedtacoma7 says:

    K_nos, you are 100% out of control today, and as usual ignorant and wrong.

    Russia? Have you not seen BHO’s latest ‘I forgot the mic was on’ moment?

    BHO and I have written the same amount of scholarly work on the law.

    ABC already published the name of a 13 year old witness, another was interviewed on TV behind his door. Surely you have seen these since you are the self proclaimed lead investigator…

    Due process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

    The video in the police station was 2+ hours after the incident. How do I (or you!) know where the blood went? But POLICE do, and he was released.

    You avoid the economic threads, and when you do post there you are factually incorrect, every time. Stick to your social issues and judge a case from behind your computer. Continue to show your bitterness and your contempt for patriotism and America.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/01/july-4-republicans-harvard_n_888659.html

  186. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The Miami Gardens teen who has become a national symbol of racial injustice was suspended three times, and had a spotty school record…

    In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f—.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

    Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana…

    Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

    Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

    “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

  187. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I do see this: The Daily Caller is a news website based in Washington, D.C., United States, with a focus on politics, original reporting and breaking news, founded by journalist and political pundit Tucker Carlson and Neil Patel, former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney. The Daily Caller launched on January 11, 2010.

    Would Tucker’s crew doctor up a picture? I hope not. I’d like to think that no one would resort to that.

    Messenger assassination cop, ehill, conveniently asleep on the job… AGAIN

    Where is the blood from the broken nose?

    Oh, I dunno’… on the pavement at Miami Gardens? Paramedics tissues? Oh, I know… on the police report!

    Due process? See Pierce County, Washington. “Self defense” killer arrested and jailed.

    GENuflect, shortbread, don’t DEflect. You’re spinning your way to China.

  188. took14theteam says:

    His house in Olympia is under a bridge, with the other trolls.

    Klewles is his best neighbor.

    ehill?

  189. aislander says:

    Did someone turn on a light?

  190. LornaDoone says:

    Oh it’s Friday night and the personal insults come out thinking that there is no moderation on the weekend.

    “Where is the blood from the broken nose?
    Oh, I dunno’… on the pavement at Miami Gardens? Paramedics tissues? Oh, I know… on the police report!”

    So in Florida, when a man has a broken nose the blood doesn’t end up on his shirt, but it is on the police report? Interesting. A man who claims he was lying on his back being attacked defied the law of gravity and no blood ended up on his shirt. It went up, took a hard right hand turn and went down on the pavement, where the grass grows that was allegedly on his back. What’s sad about all of this is that Vox, CT7 and others are so easily manipulated by a story that is so full of wholes that Swiss Cheese is envious.

    I just saw more indepth video closeup footage of Zimmerman’s head. THE ONLY IMAGE that shows anything that might be a mark is the picture on Tucker’s website. Now usually when only one source disagrees with all the other sources, process of elimination says there is something wrong with the one. I guess if the source is a Right Wing hack from way back, we throw that out the window and use new rules.

    CT7 – thanks for your new and improved comments. You’ve never questioned Obama’s education and knowledge before. This is something new, along with calling me ignorant and out of control (clue: You’ll NEVER control me). I’m really impressed that you came up with new material. Oh and by the way, that was sarcasm that went so far over your head that you really though I was congratulating you.

    I’ll end the night with this, from the Bill Maher Show – “If the Black Panthers are going to really scare us, find more members. The same three guys aren’t going to convince us that you are threatening.”

    Well gang, I just can’t wait for the new set of “facts” that will come up overnight, sprinkled in between childish insults because no one is babysitting the brats.

  191. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    And as long as we are going to speak of expertice, Barack Obama is a constitutional law lawyer and professor…

    Well that would be fraudulent experience then. 0bama was a civil rights lawyer – not a “constitutional law lawyer”, and he never officially held the title of “professor”.

    http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/03/sweet_obama_did_hold_the_title.html

    75% of people polled have already said the Supreme Court will vote partisan on the health care reform

    “As the Supreme Court begins to hear arguments about the 2010 health care overhaul, just one in four say the high court should keep President Obama’s signature legislative achievement intact, according to a new CBS News/ New York Times poll.”

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57404793-503544/poll-1-in-4-want-supreme-court-to-uphold-health-care-law/

    Usual butchering of facts by the shortbread snail.

    Personally, I’m embarrassed…

    You should be.

    Grow up.

  192. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Big sack from a guy wrong 100% of the time and known by name.

    Prove me wrong with facts, not rhetoric or speculation. Be careful with the name calling…

  193. “I’ll start by saying that I have no idea how to define it”

    But you go to no end to make stuff up about it.

  194. “Oh it’s Friday night and the personal insults come out thinking that there is no moderation on the weekend.”

    I’ve noticed the rightists get worse and worse as the week goes by and they lose argument after argument and by the time the weekend gets here they are just babbling insult after insult and calling everyone one name or another.
    The moderation of this site leaves a lot to desire during the week but it’s shameful on the weekends, the right seems to have free reign 95% of the time but on Sat and Sun (the Lords day) it’s no holds barred.

  195. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I’ve noticed the rightists get worse and worse as the week goes…

    ROTFLMFAOLZ!!! Obvious parallels utterly lost on the writer here.

    Of course things look “worse” and only get “worse” from your perspective. But then starting from an interminably wrong and annoying position, and then moving “progressively” to gallingly wrong and pestering would be the hallmark of the last two self-proclaimed liberal posters to comment in this thread.

    Does the commenter in question – the one who is not a shortbread cookie (for now) – ever have anything to offer besides critiques and thinly veiled insults of other comments/ commenters? Doubt it.

    Nothing but sand in that egg.

  196. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    What’s sad about all of this is that Vox, CT7 and others are so easily manipulated by a story that is so full of wholes that Swiss Cheese is envious.

    No, what’s sad is that you cannot/ will not argue anything on its merits. You have to deflect, obfuscate, and speculate in order to take the story in the direction of your “race-based-incident” narrative, or whatever narrative du jour. You are the manipulator here, and the fabricator, and the purveyor of spin/ talking points/ political BS. But thinking people see right through you, and reasonable people don’t buy the garbage you so incessantly peddle.

    The facts, as presented here ad-nauseuem, be damned. Only shortbread knows what took place… what Martin did or didn’t do and what was in Zimmerman’s heart. After all Larna is the all-seeing – the judge, jury, and executioner.

  197. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    BTW, I looked at the Daily Caller enhanced frame two days ago. My impression is that it shows/ proves exactly as much as the rest of the police station video; NOTHING.

  198. LornaDoone says:

    In case anyone is wondering, CT7 STILL isn’t in control of me.

    That being said, this is the humor of the month:

    concernedtacoma7 says:
    March 31, 2012 at 2:07 am Big sack from a guy wrong 100% of the time and known by name.
    Prove me wrong with facts, not rhetoric or speculation. Be careful with the name calling…

    OK…moving on.

    “your “race-based-incident” narrative”

    Funny, but I don’t find the Zimmerman/Martin killing a race issue, aside from a racial slur thown by Zimmerman, which I think is just an indicator of his loss of control at the time.

    Vox, CT7 and others keep trying to make this race based, and keep saying that I and others like me are endorsing this, but we’ve all stipulated the contrary so many times it would have been cheaper to record it and produce an LP like Ronnie Reagan did to speak against Social Security.

    I don’t think Zimmerman killed Martin because he was black. I think Zimmerman would have killed anyone that night. I think Zimmerman was a loose cannon just waiting to kill someone because he thought he had the right.

    I hope that clears up the race based conspiracy for the last time.

  199. LornaDoone says:

    “Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:
    March 31, 2012 at 8:28 am BTW, I looked at the Daily Caller enhanced frame two days ago. My impression is that it shows/ proves exactly as much as the rest of the police station video; NOTHING.”

    I couldn’t agree more. NOTHING. No blood on the shirt from a broken nose. No abrasions to the head.

    The video showed NOTHING. The injuries claimed would have made the video show SOMETHING.

    Unless the video is getting the same treatment as the audio – that being certain people denying anything.

  200. LornaDoone says:

    And not to further the distraction that CT7 loves to create and Vox loves to support –

    “a Bloomberg poll that calculated “75% of people think that the Supreme Court will decide based on their political beliefs, not on the law”

    It’s all over the internet, pick your source.

  201. concernedtacoma7 says:

    So Cookie, across the country and month later, sees no injuries on a grainy video. Those cops that wrote the police report must be real suckers to have just made up the injuries.

    Oh, in your version of events his father, Batman and the tooth fairy got together and made up a story, then changed the police report.

  202. LornaDoone says:

    sunCOUGHtimesCOUGHtabliodCOUGHpagethreesensationism

    I’m betting Lynn is part of the liberal press that voted for Obama. I mean to write a column discecting the differences in terminology used by colleges, that’s top notch stuff.

  203. aislander says:

    kluwso will never let a cheap “point” go unmade, thereby underlining its unfailing ability to miss the real point…

    “Such is the welter of divergent opinion surrounding the term, that it is almost de rigeur to open contributions to the debate on fascism with some such observation.”
    Roger Griffin, The Nature of Fascism

    The POINT is that anyone who presents a hard and fast definition of fascism has no idea what he is talking about, and that is why tracing its origins, philosophical and sociological, is the only real way of understanding it.

  204. All of this speculation on the part of the lefties is simply that, speculation. Wait until the case goes to court before you claim to know everything about this case. You are just going to prove once again how wrong you are on practically all issues. “How can you tell when a liberal is lying”? When their lips are moving. Lesson #1. never, ever trust anything that a liberal says. Lesson#2. Liberals are genetically prone to be liars and untrustworthy.

  205. aislander says:

    Oh, and, when you trace those origins, you will find that many of them are the same as those of various lefty movements, including the American progressive one.

    Start with William James and work back to Nietzsche and Rousseau. Take a detour through the early years of The New Republic, too. That should keep you busy for a while, but don’t forget New York Times coverage of post-WWI Italy and Germany. It’s yummy!

  206. LornaDoone sure does bear a striking resemblance to “LuckyCharm”, How can two people who seem to be joined at the hip not be the same person with a new tag? hmmmmmm?

  207. LornaDoone says:

    I see Aislander is still milking the fascist cow to avoid the subject at hand.

    Frosty is chirping the “waiting until the case goes to court” mantra that didn’t apply when OJ Simpson was charged.

    Since “lying” is what has been brought up – isn’t “intellectual dishonesty” just “lying” in a pretty dress?

    Frosty also forgot that the Founding Fathers were the liberals of their time.

    There you go, Aislander. A new diversion.

  208. aislander says:

    Just responding to being called a “fascist,” when the term truly applies to the one slinging the slur. And kluwseau seems to want to keep it going…

    And you, smart liberal that you are, should know that classical liberals such as the Founders bear NO resemblance to those who call themselves liberal nowadays…

  209. LornaDoone says:

    “NO resemblance”

    LOL

  210. aislander says:

    I gave my opinion of the “subject at hand”: It’s all about energizing the base and there is much more heat than light being brought to bear…

  211. aislander says:

    LOL? You sure showed ME!

  212. Since the right seems to run from this, I’ll ask again,
    How do you feel about Clarence Thomas and his wife making a ton of money from the idiot teabaggers trying to kill the health care reform?
    You think he should recuse himself?
    How about the scum Scalia who dines, regularly, with the folks running another group lobbying to kill it as well?
    You think he should recuse himself?

    Any answers righties?

  213. “And kluwseau seems to want to keep it going…”

    Nice name calling, what grade you going to be in next year?

    As to ‘keeping it going’ not the case, I do however feel it’s my duty to correct out right lies when I seem them in the public domain.
    I know thats how you rightists pass information, then when corrected, you go on the attack, as you have done here along with your fellows.
    It’s just a matter of accuracy.

  214. aislander says:

    I have a dog who will eventually let go of a bone when there’s no meat left on it. And he’s not even a particularly smart dog…

  215. We are still waiting for aislander to come up with ANYTHING that backs up her claim. But that of course means everyone else is wrong.

  216. “LOL? You sure showed ME!”

    Not hard to do really.

  217. LornaDoone says:

    “I have a dog who will eventually let go of a bone when there’s no meat left on it. And he’s not even a particularly smart dog…”

    I’ll bet he never lets go of the fascist dialog

  218. “And he’s not even a particularly smart dog…”

    So, prove you are smarter than that dog and back your wild claims up with some facts.
    Ones that you don’t just make up on the spot preferably.

  219. aislander says:

    Can a circle be composed of two? Wear gloves, guys…

  220. Aren’t you clever, running away with your insults when you KNOW your beaten.

  221. LornaDoone says:

    “Resemblance”

    Physical? LOL

    To consider that the Founding Fathers were: (for the most part)

    favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

    favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

    Of course, I went and used one of those reference guides as opposed to pulling definitions from my southern anatomy.

  222. aislander says:

    crafty? It IS you! I remember this technique of declaring victory when it doesn’t exist, while ignoring every argument. Ah, sweet nostalgia…

    Why don’t you point to one specific “lie” that you have, in any way, “corrected.” I look forward to discussing that in detail…

  223. aislander says:

    How about favoring individualism over collectivism?

  224. How about backing your claims with facts and not childish insults?

  225. aislander says:

    Still dodging, huh? That’s what I expected.

    Now get outta here, ya knucklehead, and let the adults talk…

  226. aislander says:

    I must be AFK for a while, but don’t be too distraught; I look forward to taking up this, er…stimulating…discussion when I return…

  227. “Still dodging, huh? That’s what I expected.”

    Yes, you sure are, but it’s what we all expect from the right.

  228. aislander, apparently you are AWOL for a while, but I wanted to make an observation and ask a question. You say, “How about favoring individualism over collectivism?”

    I thought it was both amusing and a little puzzling that the lawyers presenting to the Supreme Court for the side that wants to do away with the mandatory insurance answered several questions that seemed to say that there was a right to health care in the USA, and the government must make sure all people are able to have health care.

    They said that people have a right to use emergency rooms, and people can go on welfare if their finances are wiped out by health care costs, and they can use Medicare and other programs to obtain health care, so we don’t need mandatory insurance.

    Doesn’t that seem like an unusual argument for conservatives to be presenting? Making individuals responsible for their own care through purchase of insurance is wrong, but making government provide care for people who choose not to have insurance is fine?

  229. LornaDoone says:

    Since this is a thread about Zimmerman killing Martin, a thought occurred to me.

    There is all sorts of talk about “due process”. What “due process” was provided to Trayvon Martin by his executioner?

  230. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Executioner? Keep up your rhetoric and lies.

    Baseless and ignorant

  231. alindasue says:

    frosty said, “Wait until the case goes to court…”

    The big issue is that this case won’t go to court unless Mr. Zimmerman is charged with something. The problem is that there may not be any charges because the police at the scene took Mr. Zimmerman at his word without doing a proper investigation or collecting evidence that would have been needed to make a case one way or another.

  232. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    allindasue,
    Just my speculation, but I would be shocked if Zimmerman were not charged with manslaughter – regardless of whether the prosecutor has enough evidence to prove that. Remember, the case is now in the hands of a Florida State Prosecutor, and (maybe) a grand jury. They will decide whether the case merits prosecution, not the local police.

    I think the level of publicity will force the prosecutor to prosecute against her better judgement. I see a change of venue and an acquittal on the grounds that Zimmerman was in compliance with Florida Law – specifically “Stand Your Ground”. Worse case scenario for Zimmerman is a conviction subsequently overturned on appeal.

    And after the state has insured their will be no doubly jeopardy, the feds will step in with a “violation of civil rights” case (regardless of whether or not the hapless Holder is still the AGUS), and the Martins will pursue Zimmerman in civil court. Neither of these two scenarios look good for Zimmerman.

  233. George Zimmerman’s Long, Lonely War Against Black Youths Doing Things

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/23/george_zimmerman_s_long_lonely_war_against_black_youths_doing_things.html

    On April 22, 2011, Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.

  234. Still can’t understand how “stand your ground” includes following a suspect after being told by an officer of the law not to….

  235. Zimmerman made 46 911 calls in the 15 months leading up to his killing of Martin. Maybe he wasn’t a racist but he was clearly paranoid and delusional. AND, his actions led to the death of a 17 year old whose only crime was walking with Skittles and Iced Tea in a gated community.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201203/george-zimmerman-the-mind-the-shooter

  236. LornaDoone says:

    “Executioner? Keep up your rhetoric and lies.
    Baseless and ignorant”

    Did Zimmerman not execute Martin? Did he not decide Martin’s fate?

    As to “wait until the case goes to court” – it would have been nice if Zimmerman had taken that advice.

    Instead he took the law into his hands, becoming police, judge, jury and executioner.

    Not such a comfy thought, huh CT7?

    Look up “baseless” and “ignorant” before using big words like that.

    Otherwise, you look ignorant (lacking of knowledge)

  237. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The proper conservative strategy, if that’s not too crude a term, is the one employed by Rep. Allen West — focus on the facts of the case, and how a law meant for self-defense may have be incorrectly applied to defend a first-degree murderer.

    Oh… I get it, that would obviously only apply to “conservatives”, according to that well known bastion of journalistic impartiality, slate.com.

    In the mean time they are free to continue their guilt by association meme vis-a-vis the “neighborhood watch captain” performing his duties. In other words, focusing on anythingbut the facts.

    46 911 calls? And the known racist only made 3 concerning blacks? In a neighborhood that boasts a 25% black population he only managed to racially profile less than 5%?

    Sounds like Zimmerman isn’t living up to your expectations, bB.

  238. LornaDoone says:

    “And the known racist”

    Who said racist?

    Why does race keep getting brought up by Vox in every thread, even the one about health care insurance?

  239. took14theteam says:

    Hey cookie, every murder can be considered an execution.

    16 shot, one dead in Chicago.

    http://news.morningstar.com/all/acquire-news/ff80808136199bf9013621020d017dc9/16-shot-1-dead-in-overnight-shootings-chicago-tribune.aspx

    Could this be considered an execution?

    Why didn’t the race baiters spool up on this incident?

    Isn’t race is my business Jackson a resident of Chicago?

  240. aislander says:

    xring: I was responding to LD’s (always a mistake, I know) implied assertion that classical liberals, such as the Founders, are EXACTLY the same as today’s “liberal fascists” (socialist H.G. Wells’s term–not mine or Jonah Goldberg’s), by positing that the Founders were individualists rather than collectivists…

  241. aislander says:

    You know what is worse than a liar? The detestable creep who accuses others of lying without providing a shred of evidence.

    Either put up or do everyone the favor of shutting up.

  242. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Even more deststable, AI is the fact that that post is still up. I guarantee if we were to name the detestable creep you reference, as he did us, our post wouldn’t last 5 seconds.

    The detestable creep is screaming for validation – trying desperately to be relevant. Ignore him.

  243. aislander says:

    Would it be racist of me to ask–and this is something I’d really like to know, since the subject is what it is–are more blacks murdered by whites or whites murdered by blacks, proportionally to population?

    If it were strictly proportional, out of every group of 100, thirteen would be black, and perhaps 70 would be white, depending on whether all Hispanics are classified as non-white (which makes no sense to me, but “non-white Hispanic” has been used by the NY Times to describe George Zimmerman. I think that IS a valid classification). So 70 to 80 whites out of the 100.

    So, one could look at the murder rates of white to black and black to white, compare those to representation in the population and make a judgment as to whether whites disproportionally murder blacks or vice versa.

    If it were found to be the latter, what would that say about the furor surrounding this case?

  244. LornaDoone says:

    Let’s see – murder in Chicago, whining about not winning an argument and preferential treatment on the blogs.

    Nothing about the thread subject which is the killing of Martin by Zimmerman.

    Make no mistake about it, folks. Zimmerman would have killed someone regardless of if they were black. This wasn’t race motivated.

    So since we are not worried today about thread topics (where is CT, when we need it?) Here is a riddle:

    What is favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs, or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

    Answer – a Founding Father!!!

  245. LornaDoone says:

    Identifying someone by race isn’t racist.

    Making a mockery of racism is racist.

    I’d think that The Answer Man should know such things, but I’m always willing to provide information for someone to try to make an argument from.

    Regardless of census numbers of murder and other minutiae that can be dragged up for a shield, Zimmerman killed Martin and regardless of who was from what heritage, Martin is still dead.

    Meanwhile, it is my contention and the contention of those not trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue that George Zimmerman would have killed anyone in that neighborhood that night. Zimmerman was much worse than a racist. He was a gun owner that thinks it’s his job to police the area, even when told by a 911 operator that they didn’t need his help. According to an attorney on the media, concealed permits in Florida require that the gun remain concealed, unless you are shooting it. Therefore, Zimmerman’s statement that Martin “went for the gun” would indicate that he had pulled the gun for intimidation, which would be in violation of the laws of Florida.

    Interestingly, I’ve seen many defend Zimmerman’s action of ignoring the 911 operator saying he has a right to be wherever he wants. Sadly, Trayvon didn’t seem to have the same right, at least in Zimmerman’s mind.

  246. concernedtacoma7 says:

    You asking for me? I will show up at one of your ‘performances’. Hold your breath.

    Until then, stay on topic…..

    Vox and AI, thank you for showing the facts and truth time and again. I let the volume of crap affect my responses too often. The casual reader sees the posts and knows what side looks juvenile.

    Cheers, k&ard.

  247. “So, one could look at the murder rates of white to black and black to white, compare those to representation in the population and make a judgment as to whether whites disproportionally murder blacks or vice versa.”

    And that would prove that this zimmerman didn’t hunt this kid down and kill him in cold blood?
    Are you seriously trying to justify this murder because ‘they do it more’?
    Do you not see now why people like you are called, correctly, racist?

  248. The truth must be getting out, all 3 of them are ganging up to deflect, insult and other wise confuse.
    Too bad it never quite works for them.

  249. vox – I’ll repost with emphasis as you seem to have missed this:
    Zimmerman made 46 911 calls in the 15 months leading up to his killing of Martin. Maybe he wasn’t a racist but he was clearly paranoid and delusional. AND, his actions led to the death of a 17 year old whose only crime was walking with Skittles and Iced Tea in a gated community.

    where do you get that only 3 of the 46 calls were about blacks?

    I do see that 4 of 6 recently released calls were about “suspicious blacks” while the other two were about children playing in the street and an open garage door.
    http://www.thegrio.com/news/past-zimmerman-911-calls-war.php

    Here is a 48 page document if you want to wade through it
    http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/trayvon-shooters-911-calls-potholes-piles-trash-black-men

  250. And….as troubling as Zimmerman’s actions were, what is most disconcerting is the apparent lack of action by the cops and prosecuter after the homicide.

  251. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Identifying someone by race isn’t racist.

    Oh? Then why are criminals no longer identified by race unless the crime is considered “racial”?

    Making a mockery of racism is racist.

    Straw man.

    B… BW… BWAH… BWAHH-ROTFLMFAO! You can’t be serious. What, are you asking us to go back a few days – drag up a post that is sure to get whomever posts it deleted?

    Oops, for a moment I thought you were insinuating that you weren’t “trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue”. But a second reading shows that your use of a conjunction clearly creates a distinction between “those trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue” and yourself. Sorry if my previous paragraph created the illusion in anyone’s mind, that you have not been trying to make this (and just about every other thread) into a “racial issue”.

    Therefore, Zimmerman’s statement that Martin “went for the gun” would indicate that he had pulled the gun for intimidation…

    I know Perry Mason, you’re no Perry Mason. Pure unadulterated 100% speculation. What’s new? But since third-party accounts are acceptable in your book, please note that Zimmerman’s father has already related the obvious; George told him – and the police – that his gun became exposed in the scuffle. And the police report states they removed a gun and shoulder holster from Zimmerman at the scene.

    which would be in violation of the laws of Florida.

    Wrong again. Even if you’re stopped-watch approach get’s lucky this time, Zimmerman would have been within the law (under under “Stand Your Ground”) to pull the gun had he felt threatened.

    Interestingly, I’ve seen many defend Zimmerman’s action of ignoring the 911 operator saying he has a right to be wherever he wants.

    Yet another straw man – this one used to set up your profound final sentence.

    Grade: D- (Missed a “fail” by the inclusion of one actual fact in the portion of one sentence stating “Zimmerman killed Martin and regardless of who was from what heritage, Martin is still dead.” Congratulations.)

  252. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    where do you get that only 3 of the 46 calls were about blacks?

    Just using what you posted beerBs. If you say it was 4, so be it. But your post sure read like a “races” indictment.

    Besides, if it comes out in trial that Zimmerman was “paranoid and delusional” it makes it both more tragic and still less likely he’ll be convicted.

    And turning the focus back on the “cops and prosecutor” will not change the content of this thread. The vast majority of your contemporaries are on a Zimmerman/ racist witch hunt. As for the cops, they arrested Zimmerman the night of the incident. The lead detective on the case, Chris Serino, filed a Feb. 26 affadavit stating he was “unconvinced by Zimmerman’s version of events” and asked the state prosecutor to file manslaughter charges, but the prosecutor declined to do so citing “lack of evidence”.

    So can we allow this thing to play-out in the courts and remove the tiresome insinuations of racism now?

    Meanwhile, National Action Network founder and president the Rev. Al Sharpton has this message for officials and residents of Sanford: “You are risking going down as the Birmingham and Selma of the 21st century.”

    Apparently not.

  253. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Somehow I lost a quote in my 7:02 post. This makes more sense:

    Meanwhile, it is my contention and the contention of those not trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue…

    B… BW… BWAH… BWAHH-ROTFLMFAO! You can’t be serious. What, are you asking us to go back a few days – drag up a post that is sure to get whomever posts it deleted?

    Oops, for a moment I thought you were insinuating that you weren’t “trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue”. But a second reading shows that your use of a conjunction clearly creates a distinction between “those trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue” and yourself. Sorry if my previous paragraph created the illusion in anyone’s mind, that you have not been trying to make this (and just about every other thread) into a “racial issue”.

    HTH

  254. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Okay, that’s it, just turned of auto-correct. That is the most annoying feature of OSX Lion! Taking typos and automatically changing them into what the OS thinks you mean just results in correctly spelled words placed completely out of context – e.g “races” instead of “racist”.

    I’ll take my chances with the typos.

  255. LornaDoone says:

    Worth repeating:

    “Meanwhile, it is my contention and the contention of those not trying to make the Trayvon Marting murder a racial issue that George Zimmerman would have killed anyone in that neighborhood that night.”

  256. LornaDoone says:

    ::::trying my best to ignore Zimmerman’s racial slur to 911:::::

  257. vox – I have posted evidence of 3 to 7 (don’t know if they are referencing the same calls) Zimmerman 911 calls that were about blacks and 2 that were unspecified. The other 37 calls I don’t know about and have made no claims about them. For you to deduce that only the ones that I specifically mentioned were about blacks doesn’t put you in the running for the Sherlock Holmes contest.

    And, yes, it is highly possible that race was a motivation. I don’t discount it as a possibility – unlike Constance and several others who seem to forget that an innocent minor was killed by their “victim”, George Zimmerman.

  258. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Speaking of “trying to make this into a racial issue”.

    bB?

    And Larna, the distinction you drew between yourself and the rest of us on the subject of making this a “racial issue” is still noted and appreciated.

    Thanks for your confirmation.

  259. aislander says:

    concernedtacoma7 writes: “I let the volume of crap affect my responses too often.”

    I think that is the strategy. Noli illegitimi carborundum!

    Your posts have picked me up when I have felt exactly the same way.

  260. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I’d say ignore all trolls, but I am repeatedly guilty of getting sucked in by the single most prolific example here.

    The others are mere fruit flies who haven’t perfected their “craft” to the “prominence” of a stale cookie.

  261. “I’d say ignore all trolls”

    Then who would talk to you and your fellow nutbags?

  262. SandyQue says:

    Wouldn’t the troll be a person that constantly makes personal insults and voids the topic of the blog?

  263. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Kluw- why do you post here? Attempt to respond honestly. Do you feel that you contribute?

  264. Meanwhile, from GOP’s second favorite presidential candidate, Rick Santorum:

    “We know the candidate Barack Obama, what he was like – the anti-war government nig …” he seems to say, then suddenly stopping, and changing tack to add: “America was a source for division around the world, that what we were doing was wrong.”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/mar/30/rick-santorum-slip-n-word

  265. But….we all are supposed to believe that race baiting is what liberals do and the only racists in America are blacks who call whites racist

    There is a long list of minor Republicans and conservative figures who get caught out for staggeringly crass racial comments around Obama. To name a few:

    The head of the college Republicans at University of Texas who tweeted: “My president is black, he snorts a lot of crack. Holla.”

    Or the blogger for the conservative John Locke Foundation who posted a picture of Obama in drag with a bucket of fried chicken on the group’s website.

    Or the Orange County Republican official who circulated an email that featured Obama as the child of chimpanzees.

    Or the Republican city mayor in California who circulated an email with a picture of the White House lawn turned in to a watermelon patch.

    There is simply a lot of this stuff about.
    ibid.

  266. Could someone explain how Mrs. Walden’s letter isn’t race baiting?

  267. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Nice try. Listen to it (the longer sound bite) and it makes no sense, in context or tone.

    You want to find yourself some good, old fashioned racism and hate, look to Al Sharpton, Rev Wright, and their ilk.

    Most race crimes in America are commited against what ethnic group?

  268. concernedtacoma7 says:

    I thought BHO was supposed to bring us all together…

    But lets pull out the race card and raise racial tensions, since his actual record is impossible to run on. Failed stimuless, and Obamacare about to get tossed.

    A college kid, a ‘blogger’, etc, 4 people with racially charged humor. Wow BB, that is definately proof all republicans are racist. Not one of them was speaking on behalf of the RNC or conservative organizations.

    You forgot Rick Perry’s rock…

    Now, lets look at who really is against Blacks- democrats who say they cannot get an ID? Policies that have nothing to raise class mobility of urban Blacks? Dem policies are about votes, not helping people.

  269. ct7 – you really are selective in your reading – you seem to have missed these words:

    “There is a long list”
    “To name a few”
    “The head of the college Republicans”
    “John Locke Foundation”
    “Orange County Republican official”
    “Republican city mayor”

  270. btw – ct7, I never claimed that ALL Republicans are racist.

  271. “Wouldn’t the troll be a person that constantly makes personal insults and voids the topic of the blog?”

    Just call them conservatives, everyone else does.

  272. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The head of a group of college republicans at one school. He does not speak for or represent all republicans at even his school, never mind all colleges. Cute selective editting on your part.

    And K$ard, Rev Al, the Black Panthers, etc represents all progressives, liberals, and democrats.

    They (excluding the first idiot) profit off of race. Dem policies have done nothing for minorities, except get them votes.

  273. The head of a group of college republicans at one school. He does not speak for or represent all republicans at even his school, never mind all colleges. Cute selective editting on your part.

    And K$ard, Rev Al, the Black Panthers, etc represents all progressives, liberals, and democrats.

    You are pretty funny. Sad thing is, you seem to miss your own joke.

  274. You selectively edited these out from your response again:

    “John Locke Foundation”
    “Orange County Republican official”
    “Republican city mayor”

    And this:
    “I never claimed that ALL Republicans are racist.”

  275. The Huey P. Newton Foundation issued a news release denouncing the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Their release reads in part:

    “ As guardian of the true history of the Black Panther Party, the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation, which includes former leading members of the Party, denounces this group’s exploitation of the Party’s name and history. Failing to find its own legitimacy in the black community, this band would graft the Party’s name upon itself, which we condemn… [T]hey denigrate the Party’s name by promoting concepts absolutely counter to the revolutionary principles on which the Party was founded… The Black Panthers were never a group of angry young militants full of fury toward the “white establishment.” The Party operated on love for black people, not hatred of white people.[39] ”

    Bobby Seale, one of the co-founding members of the original Black Panther Party, spoke out against the New Black Panther Party. Calling the rhetoric of the New Black Panther Party “xenophobic”, he spoke of their remarks as, “absurd, racial, [and] categorical”.

    “ Just to hate another person because [of] the color of their skin or their ethnicity — we don’t do that. That’s not what the goal objective is. The goal objective is human liberation. The goal objective is the greater community cooperation and humanism. The goal objective is to get rid of institutionalized racism….[40] ”

    Reacting to a video of two representatives of the NBPP positioned outside of a polling place on Election Day in 2008 in Philadelphia, who called themselves “security”,[13] he referred to their actions as voter intimidation. He also noted the major differences between the original Black Panthers and the New Black Panthers, particularly the differences in their 10 Point Plans.[10] Before the close of the interview, Seale re-iterated that there is no connection between the original Black Panther Party for Self-Defense and the New Black Panther Party.[41]

  276. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Okay, bB’s back… and so is thread drift.

    Let’s see… didn’t you recently scold me for the same infraction? (Last time I posted your scold it was deleted, so we’ll skip that this time.)

    Really bB, we’ve managed to keep this thread on topic for over 250 posts – on a weekend. Kindly save your specious and tenuous implications of conservatives vis-a-vis racism, for a thread where that’s the topic (again). Given the new “gem” about Santorum’s “nik” slip, on which you couldn’t wait to comment, something tells me you’ll have your opportunity soon enough.

  277. vox – since the letter mentions the Black Panthers (without mentioning the difference between the original and the “New” group) and bases her whole letter on racial issues, I really don’t see how any of my posts (especially the most recent one citing original Panthers and their disgust with the “New” hoodlums) are drift.

    But….your ad hominem comments are right on target….right?

  278. LornaDoone says:

    Under the category of “let’s wait for the court case” –

    “WASHINGTON — A major donor to President Barack Obama has been accused of defrauding a businessman and impersonating a bank official”

    Wanna bet the conservatives have them guilty by noon?

  279. LornaDoone says:

    beerBoy – “off topic” is the catch all claim when they’ve run out of intelligent things to say. That’s why CT says it so often.

  280. LornaDoone says:

    “Policies that have nothing to raise class mobility of urban Blacks”

    Now this poses a question or two.

    Do all “blacks” need to raise their class mobility? What about “whites”?

    Are there not some “whites” who are in the same class position as “blacks”, if not possibly lessor class? What policies will raise their class mobility?

    It is said that racism is nothing more than ignorance. I believe that more than ever.

  281. averageJoseph says:

    Well well, the plot thickens.

    When NBC News played the audio of the 911 call George Zimmerman made prior to the confrontation that resulted in the death of Travyon Martin, this is what they played:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

    Without NBC’s editing this is what actually was said:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
    Dispatcher: OK, and this guy–is he black, white or Hispanic?
    Zimmerman: He looks black.

    Now why would they do that?
    .
    And then there’s this…

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/george-zimmerman-enhanced-video-shows-injury-trayvon-martin-16053206

  282. LornaDoone says:

    Oh gosh. They missed the part that said “f-ing _oons”

    It’s called “editing”

  283. averageJoseph says:

    Could someone explain how Constance’s letter is race baiting? (rather than asking someone to prove a negative)

  284. averageJoseph says:

    You’re so predictable Larry.

  285. aislander says:

    Altering the tape so that it sounds as though Zimmerman volunteered the description of Martin’s race is more than “editing.” Sheesh!

    You guys must be dizzy from spinning so hard…

  286. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    But the more juicy tidbit is the fact that abc is now admitting their enhanced video shows why they had that strategically-placed chyron:

    Reporter Matt Gutman said the clearer video shows “what appear to be a pair of gashes or welts on George Zimmerman’s head.”

    Neighborhood Watch volunteer Zimmerman has said he shot 17-year-old Trayvon in self-defense. The video shows Zimmerman arriving at the Sanford Police Department within an hour after the shooting.

    Gutman said the video had been “clarified” by Forensic Protection Inc. Former FBI Special Agent Brad Garrett told ABC that the clearer video shows “marks on the back of Mr. Zimmerman’s head.”

    No need to hang by your screens in anticipation of an apology from an associative disorder afflicted, race bating troll though – nor any clones or wannabes for that matter.

  287. “And K$ard, Rev Al, the Black Panthers, etc represents all progressives, liberals, and democrats.”

    Out right lies from the right.

  288. “Altering the tape so that it sounds as though Zimmerman volunteered the description of Martin’s race is more than “editing.” Sheesh!”

    You mean like breitbart always did/does?
    You defended and swallowed that, why the problem now?

  289. aislander says:

    So…they’re now admitting (on this forum) that NBC altered the tape and ABC the video.

    Thanks, lefties!

  290. aislander says:

    I guess we now know where to find faux news…and that’s not even in the well-identified opinion areas of ABC and NBC.

    You know why?

    Because those organizations express their opinions in their “news” segment and they don’t HAVE well-identified opinion segments.

    But Fox News DOES identify its opinion segments…

  291. Talk about spinning……

  292. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Talk about avoiding or acknowledging a serious issue. The left just got busted in a massive lie.

  293. ct7 – “the left”, for you, appears to be anyone who you can point your finger at.

    You will note that, while members of “the left” oftentimes rail on FoxNews, they rarely ever refer to FoxNews as “the right”. It seems that being a “conservative” means having a very liberal and fluid definition of what “the left” is.

  294. aislander says:

    The left is anyone who wants a less defined, more pervasive Federal government than the Founders did. THAT was easy!

  295. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Or, in this case, anyone that wants to see mob rule supercede the law.

    But, nice tactic in avoiding the topic at hand (at this point it is media spin on the FACTS)

  296. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The left prefers the non-gender specific “The Founders”, AI. It’s off to “interpretive history” and “political correctness” indoctrination classes with you!

  297. aislander says:

    Just saving myself some keystrokes, Vox. WE don’t have a politically-correct preference, do we? Besides, David Barton has shown that there were some Founding Mothers (I know that, like the word “mankind,” “Founding Fathers” includes both sexes)…

    As for beer’s avoidance tactic, concerned, well that was a couple of revelations too late to be effectual. I don’t see how the left can win this one on the facts now. They may be able to bury them to some degree, though…

  298. aislander says:

    …and when I say, “I don’t see how the left can win…on the facts,” I guess I have to define “winning” (thank you, Charlie Sheen…).

    Winning to us means waiting for the facts to be fully vetted and keeping a lid on emotions so that we don’t have another Rodney King outcome.

    I think for the left to win (by their lights), they need to obfuscate any exculpatory facts and for the outcome to be chaotic. Do they WANT mass violence–to stir up the mob?

    I think they do.

  299. The left is anyone who wants a less defined, more pervasive Federal government than the Founders did.

    Your “left” is a whole lot bigger than my left.

  300. Tilting at strawmen again are we vox?

  301. aislander says:

    “Left” is a direction, not a destination, beerBoy. We’ve already passed far too many stations along our way for my taste, if a point of arrival is what you’re looking for…

  302. LornaDoone says:

    (CBS) SANFORD, Fla. – The voice heard calling for help on a 911 call just before Trayvon Martin was fatally shot was not that of George Zimmerman, two forensic voice identification experts told MSNBC on Sunday.

    “The tests concluded that it’s not the voice of Mr. Zimmerman,” Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence said.

    When asked if he thought such tests would be admissible in court, Owen said “yes” and noted he had recently used similar testing at a murder trial that involved a 911 call.

    The conclusions of Owen and another audio expert were first reported by The Orlando Sentinel on Saturday.

    The 911 call he examined came in on the night of Feb. 26 from a woman who reported someone crying out for help in a gated community in Sanford, Fla. In the recording of her 911 call, panicked cries and a gunshot are heard.

    You’re so average, Larry. I see Vox and Aislander are still trying to keep the topic swayed away from facts about the Zimmerman/Martin killing

  303. LornaDoone says:

    “NBC announced on Saturday that it would launch an internal investigation into a misleadingly edited 911 call that aired on the network which featuring George Zimmerman on the night that Trayvon Martin was shot.

    The edited call which aired on NBC’s Today on March 27 featured Zimmerman talking to a 911 dispatcher. “This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black,” Zimmerman said in the edited segment.”

    Gee, I don’t know about anyone else, but I never heard this version of the audio tape. From the very beginning, I’ve heard and referred to the entire tape, inclusive of the “f-ing _oons” line, which is edited from the Mediate report. MSNBC – in particular Ed Schultz, has played the entire tape for well over a week, almost two weeks.

    So, can someone tell me what the big “scoop” is about an edited version on NBC? Maybe this is why it’s suggested to get your news from more than one source.

    As to the “back of the head”, there are conflicting reports, but the one thing that hasn’t been answered is how Zimmerman alleges a broken nose that didn’t bleed all over the front of this shirt.

    And then was REALLY mystifies me is the insistance on the part of conservatives to turn this into a race issue. Aside from the “fing_oons” slur by Zimmerman, it appears to me that Zimmerman would have killed anyone, as he was armed and ready for the worst.

    Instead he got a teenager with Skittles and an iced tea.

  304. LornaDoone says:

    Even Joe Oliver, Zimmermans spokesperson acknowledged the line about “f-ing _oons”, claiming that Zimmerman said “goons” as an endearing term.

    We haven’t heard from Joe since.

  305. aislander says:

    THERE’S the spin: change the subject and, besides that, it’s really no big deal anyway (since the MSM are such consistent liars, I suppose)…

  306. averageJoseph says:

    It’s kinda fun watching shortbread and adultbeverage boy in the quicksand.

  307. “The left just got busted in a massive lie.”

    Not hardly, but you grasp anything you can.

  308. “The left is anyone who wants a less defined, more pervasive Federal government than the Founders did. THAT was easy!”

    Well, you make up definitions a lot don’t you?
    Is there anything you don’t just make up as you go?

  309. took14theteam says:

    Waiting to hear from ehill and emoo on this.

    Tick Tick Tick, and there it is (later, when I check back)….

  310. Not a justification of the edited video but to put it in perspective:

    1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]

    2. The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

    3. On Fox News, Geraldo said that Martin was dressed “like a wannabe gangster.” Bill O’Reilly agreed with him. The sole evidence is that Martin was wearing a hoodie. Geraldo added that “everyone that ever stuck up a convenience store” was wearing a hoodie. [ThinkProgress; The Blaze]

    4. Without any evidence, prominent right-wing bloggers suggested that Martin was a drug dealer. Right-wing blogger Dan Riehl advances the theory, also advanced in a widely linked peice on a site called Wagist. There does not appear to be any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. [Riehl World View]

    5. Without any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. This allegation continues to be advanced by a blogger on the Examiner even after the real reason was leaked to the police and confirmed by the family. [Miami Herald; Examiner]

    6. Zimmerman’s friend says Martin was to blame because he was disrespectful to Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said “I’m staying with my parents.” Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going. [NBC News]
    http://www.eggdonor.com/blog/2012/03/26/understanding-smear-campaign-trayvon-martin/

    The Right wing media reps are hardly innocent in this affair fellows so I think your celebration is a little bizarre.

  311. LornaDoone says:

    “1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]“

    Yeah, that got swept under the carpet. When I brought that up a week or so ago, CT7 said “so what, she made a mistake”. Amazing how the attitude changes when it’s not a right wing blog. I guess they are expected to manipulate the truth, but when it appears that a major network is doing the same thing, it’s a big deal.

  312. took14theteam says:

    ehill?
    emoo?

  313. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Mistake was made and she apologized. Grow up.

    And bloggers are not main stream media. One is responsible to a person, one is responsible to an organization.

    End of the day he looks way more ‘thuggish’ then in the younger photos.

  314. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Tilting at strawmen again are we vox?

    Pray tell, bB.

  315. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    LornaDoone
    MARCH 30, 2012 AT 12:52 PM
    Frosty, CT7 and Vox all want to make this a political issue. I thought it was an issue about a dead 17 year old.

    Now, I’ve watched the video complete with stop action and close up of the back of Zimmerman’s head and I don’t see any abrasions. Nor do any of the media that report it, but I guess we can all be wrong and CT7 is right just because CT7 says so. So….

    LornaDoone
    MARCH 30, 2012 AT 6:00 PM
    Strange. The still of the video that I saw was more clear and showed nothing.

    I do see this: The Daily Caller is a news website based in Washington, D.C., United States, with a focus on politics, original reporting and breaking news, founded by journalist and political pundit Tucker Carlson and Neil Patel, former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney. The Daily Caller launched on January 11, 2010.

    Would Tucker’s crew doctor up a picture? I hope not. I’d like to think that no one would resort to that.

    LornaDoone
    MARCH 30, 2012 AT 8:27 PM
    I just saw more indepth video closeup footage of Zimmerman’s head. THE ONLY IMAGE that shows anything that might be a mark is the picture on Tucker’s website. Now usually when only one source disagrees with all the other sources, process of elimination says there is something wrong with the one. I guess if the source is a Right Wing hack from way back, we throw that out the window and use new rules.

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/george-zimmerman-enhanced-video-shows-injury-trayvon-martin-16053206

    Yup’, with your track record we should all just ignore what you have said, and the nbc/ abc walk-backs, because NOW you have a NEW scoop, LMAO!.

    Keep your eye on Lardna’s shiny object folks!

  316. averageJoseph says:

    LOL, but so beerBoy admits NBC is a leftist news outlet.

    Oh, and beer, did you just give up on explaining how Constance’s letter is racebaiting?

  317. aislander says:

    I still thinks it’s crafty, but could be the others, too.

    Kinda reminds me of whackamole–if the mole lacked the ability to be embarrassed and kept popping up anyway…

  318. aJ – nope, stop trying to read things that aren’t written. I never “admitted” anything about the ongoing and persistent claims youse guys make about the “lame stream media”. Your claims are based upon perceptions and arguing perceptions is a waste of time.

    A: because the entire letter is based upon Constance’s perceptions about racial relations.

  319. The thing that is getting lost in all of this hyperbolic venting is that the Stand Your Ground law (and the way the police and prosecutor have interpreted it) is the reason why this situation exists.

    Without SYG laws it is legal to defend yourself with a legally carried gun. The SYG laws are not necessary and muddy the situation by requiring prosecutors to prove a shooter’s thoughts – if the shooter feels threatened (whether or not he actually was) the law claims that that makes it OK to kill.

    The 46 calls to 911 may, or may not, demonstrate Zimmerman’s racial feelings but – more pertinent to SYG – they demonstrate his paranoia. How can SYG laws make any sense when they are based upon the fear level of someone who is paranoid?

  320. “The Right wing media reps are hardly innocent in this affair fellows so I think your celebration is a little bizarre.”

    Thanks for the facts and perspective BB, the right most often goes a bit nuts when they think they have something.

  321. averageJoseph says:

    Nope, what’s lost is the rush to judgement about an incident that the msm initially claimed was a hate crime until they realized Zimmerman is hispanic, a “white hispanic”. That they altered audio AND video to bolster their assumption. That the “new” black panthers issued a bounty and Spike Lee tweeted the wrong address so the bounty hunters could go get the ‘whitey’ hispanic, and Obama (the one who appeared in front of teleprompters and all to urge people to tone down the rhetoric after Gabby got shot) has been vitually silent while the race baiters are stirring up the masses to the point where we may well be on the verge of riots AGAIN. Meanwhile, “youse guys” are making excuses for the eventuallity of rioting.
    If you really want to make a difference, get out there and do something to curb the incidence of black on black crime rather than fomenting more racial tension.

    You need to try to understand the difference between speculative statements that are unprovable and facts, beerBoy. You claim to know what the prosecutor and police think. You have VERY loosley and inaccurately defined SYG, and then you psycho analyze a person you never met and have no idea what the actual situation at that time was.

    If Zimmerman acted outside the law he should be prosecuted and tried. Fomenting racial unrest and division makes that more and more difficult. Zimmerman was detained and questioned for 5 hours. Witnesses and photo evidence (likely EMS documentation as well) support Zimmerman’s account. No doubt there is other evidence that influenced law enforcement’s and the prosecutors decision in this case that we are not privy to.

    It serves as a great distraction and also serve to arrouse the sleeping masses that realized “hope and change” was no more than a cheap bumper sticker slogan.

  322. averageJoseph says:

    Oh, again, how is Constance’s letter race baiting?

  323. averageJoseph, your criticism of Obama is just another example of trying to blame him for all things. Obama hate is a terrible disease, and is just as bad or worse as premature blame in this case, since all the facts are known about what Obama did or did not do in this situation.

    Obama did not blame Zimmerman, or racism or the police or anyone for the killing.

    He did not try to connect the killing to any stigmatization or comment that a young Black man walking down the street in a hoodie seemed to be “fair game”.

    He did not try to connect the way in which Trayvon was gunned down to the ways in which our justice system targets Black youths and funnels them into the prison system at a much higher rate and for longer sentences than other races receive for the same crimes.

    He did not talk about the way in which Trayvon’s killer seems to have assumed, in his 911 call, that this youth was a criminal threat just by virtue of walking around.

    He did not say that Trayvon had no right to be walking in a gated community, like a lot of right-wing commenters have stated.

    If you want to see what Obama said, it is here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/03/23/us/ap-us-obama-trayvon-martin-text.html?_r=1&ref=us

    Please note that he said he needs to be careful because there is an ongoing investigation, that all levels of government must participate in a complete investigation and encouraged all to find out the facts and “get to the bottom of exactly what happened.”

    That is a very measured and appropriate statement by the president.
    Here’s the similar statement he made about the Giffords shooting when all the facts were not in:

    “We do not yet have all the answers. What we do know is that such a senseless and terrible act of violence has no place in a free society. I ask all Americans to join me and Michelle in keeping Representative Giffords, the victims of this tragedy, and their families in our prayers.”

    I can see that what Obama said in your reference to the Tucson speech at the memorial went right over your head:

    “But at a time when our discourse has become so sharply polarized – at a time when we are far too eager to lay the blame for all that ails the world at the feet of those who think differently than we do – it’s important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we are talking with each other in a way that heals, not a way that wounds”.

    btw, SOME witnesses support Zimmerman, and some don’t. Unfortunately, the police ignored those who did not support Zimmerman and didn’t even interview them, even though the witnesses repeatedly tried to contact the police to give their statements.

  324. Nice average cut and paste.

  325. LornaDoone says:

    “Would Tucker’s crew doctor up a picture? I hope not. I’d like to think that no one would resort to that.”

    Since we are quoting me, pay careful attention to “I’d like to think that no one could resort to that”.

    Now, THAT being said, take a look at the picture that Tucker’s site shows and the alleged “right” picture from ABC or whoever. They’re not the same.

    Then take a look at the crap that Tucker and friends conjured up to cover Rick Santorum’s latest stupidity and you’ll realize why I question Daily Caller.

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/21/santorum-more-right-than-wrong-about-dutch-euthanasia/

    I’m really amused at how the cons were repeating the “let the court decide” mantra, and then suddenly switched gears when someone said ABC was wrong about their picture…yadda yadda….

    My real question is “why are there many other sources other than ABC where you don’t see any damage to his head?” I’m guessing the cons are too busy beating their chests to want to look at that issue.

  326. LornaDoone says:

    “That the “new” black panthers issued a bounty and Spike Lee tweeted the wrong address so the bounty hunters could go get the ‘whitey’ hispanic”

    No race baiting. LOL

  327. aJ – you keep making unsubstantiated claims about my (lack) of knowledge. But here – perhaps you could learn something:

    A stand-your-ground law states that a person may use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first. In some cases, a person may use deadly force in public areas without a duty to retreat. Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations and the “stand your ground” law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit. The difference between immunity and a defense is that an immunity bars suit, charges, detention and arrest. A defense permits a plaintiff or the state to seek civil damages or a criminal conviction. More than half of the states in the United States have adopted the Castle doctrine, stating that a person has no duty to retreat when their home is attacked. Some states go a step further, removing the duty of retreat from any location. “Stand Your Ground”, “Line In The Sand” or “No Duty To Retreat” laws thus state that a person has no duty or other requirement to abandon a place in which he has a right to be, or to give up ground to an assailant. Under such laws, there is no duty to retreat from anywhere the defender may legally be.[1] Other restrictions may still exist; when in public, a person must be carrying the firearm in a legal manner, whether concealed or openly.

  328. aJ – perhaps you can explain why the Police performed drug and alcohol tests on the victim’s body but didn’t bother to check the perp.

  329. Oh – and again

    A: because the entire letter is based upon Constance’s perceptions about racial relations.

    You complain about a poster who cannot be named here and his tactics yet you are a rather constant practioneer of those very same tactics.

  330. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Nice average cut and paste.

    If AJ posted the lyrics to “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star” you’d accuse him of “cut and paste”.

    Why? Probably because AJ has demonstrated a capacity for original thought – something sorely lacking in the monotonous left-wing-think-tank-talking-points found in your consistently denigratory judgements of comments by others.

    In five paragraphs, AJ has added more to a conversation in this thread – hell, in any thread – than you have in the five weeks you’ve been lurking.

    Anyone can make smart-a$$ critiques of other comments. How ’bout you impress us all and come up with an original thought. Be the first to comment on a hot button issue thread – do something that short little, long-haired, long bearded, nordic-dressed under bridge dwellers don’t normally do.

    Impress us.

  331. averageJoseph says:

    No Tuddo, just pointing out how there are 2 seperate standards at play here. Obama, like many of the other haters was very quick to blame talk radio for inciting Laughner to shoot Gabby Giffords. To the point he actuall came on the airwaves pleading Americans to be civil. Of course then we find out Laughner was more a disciple of the left.

    Now, there are people actually trying to incite violence and what does Obama do? nooothing.

  332. averageJoseph says:

    Hey kluwer_br, if you can find where I supposedly “cut and paste” my 9:23 post, I’ll give you my e-mail address.
    Have fun and get comfortable, you’ll be googling for a looong time, and remember, just because you do something does not mean everyone else does it.

  333. averageJoseph, I would ask hyou to substabntiate your claim that Obama blamed talk radio for the Gabby Giffords shooting. However, since I have already posted what Obama did say, I know that what you are saying cannot be substantiated and you are making stuff up to try to suppport a totally unsupportable world view.

    Who is trying to inc ite vilence in this case? I see a lot of protesters. And if you are talking about the three or four guys who call themselves the New Black Panthers, then you really do need to get a life.

    I have it on the good authority that Fox News actually set up the New Black Panthers and pays for their expenses so they could blame black racists for every evil in the world.

  334. aislander says:

    What “good authority,” tuddo? Or are you trying to make some reductio ad absurdum point?

    In any case Obama DID request that everyone “tone down the rhetoric” after the Giffords shooting, which is the next thing to accusing talk radio. But, I have to ask “WHAT rhetoric?” I didn’t hear anyone advocating violence toward Giffords..

  335. aislander, another absurd barb thrower at Obama.

    Making up stuff is fun, isn’t it?

  336. aislander says:

    Knock knock, tuddo…anyone IN there?

  337. aislander says:

    Obama, in Arizona, calls for more civility – The Daily Voice …
    In an emotional speech on Wednesday, President Barack Obama consoled a … to encourage Americans to tone down the rhetoric … row were First Lady Michelle Obama, Giffords …
    thedailyvoice.com/voice/2011/01/obama-in-arizona… – Cached

  338. aislander, yes, I hear you. You’re the one who thinks “everyone” is on talk radio. Maybe its those voices in your head.

    The only national commenter who had anything negative to say about the president’s Tucson speech where he asked people to tone down the rhetoric – everyone- not just hose on talk radio, was Bill O’Reilly. He said it was a great speech, but it came too late for Giffords.

  339. Oops, he didn’t just single out the “hose” on talk radio either, although there are many of them.

  340. Knock knock, tuddo…anyone IN there?

    I guess I’m not “adult” enough to understand the maturity of that response…

  341. aislander says:

    tuddo’s response–alleging, apparently, that I was attacking President Obama, made absolutely no sense. I merely paraphrased His words and pointed to the hypocrisy.

    THAT’S why I was uncertain if anyone was at home in tuddoville…

  342. Oh…I get it! It is mature to act condescendingly to someone who disagrees with you!

  343. Oh, for goodness sake! Let’s just let “brutha” Al “Shopton” get to the bottom of this whole mess. I can’t wait to hear him state what is so obvious to everyone, “uh uh uh uh uh uh, “dey knows what dey are doin”, “dem republicans is always tryn to uh uh uh uh uh , cause trouble, just axe dem, dey knows dey is uh uh uh uh wrong.

  344. So, aislander, perhaps you can clarify what you did mean when I took aJ to task for this statement:

    “Obama, like many of the other haters was very quick to blame talk radio for inciting Laughner to shoot Gabby Giffords.”

    I asked him to support it with some evidence. Nothing was forthcoming. Then you jumped in and said that what Obama stated “is the next thing to accusing talk radio.”

    Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by “the next thing”. I took it to mean that it was pretty much the same thing, or close enough that any difference was negligible.

    That is what I was dismissing as absurd and unfounded.

    If you meant something else by your comment, please elucidate. Either that or provide some sort of evidence that Obama actually blamed talk radio for Giffords’ shooting. Or we shall consider aJ and your comments as equally true as my Fox/Panthers financial link.

  345. averageJoseph says:

    Oh…I get it! It is mature to act condescendingly to someone who disagrees with you!

    LOL coming from the king of condescension. Really dude.

  346. averageJoseph says:

    LOL, sorry Tuddo. So what HAS Obama done or said to quell the rhetoric coming from the likes of the “new” black panthers? Has he pffered tp give back the campaign contribution from Spike?

    Can you imagine whast the story line would be had say, Hannity tweated the address (wrong address to boot) of someone he thought should have a bounty on their head? And what if the new white panthers offered a bounty for someone they felt should be punished?

  347. aJ – and where is the conservative uproar about the anti-abortion sites with the addresses of abortion doctors who are pictured in cross-hairs?

    The problem with “moral outrage” about the lack of moral outrage on the other side is there is ALWAYS an example from your side.

  348. averageJoseph says:

    I don’t know bB. I’ve never ever seen one. It’s wrong.
    I think Obama should make a public statement just like he did after Gabby was shot. I think he should publicly scold Spike and the little posse like he is the SCOTUS. He should immediately renounce Jesse and Al, as well as all the others fomenting racial tension. (it’s really a sad displayand it undermines legitimate attempts to combat actual racism.)
    I think there’s a few folks here that should be apologizing for their rush to judgement toward Zimmerman. Have ya heard… it’s “f@3&i*& cold“!

    Nice try at deflection tho.

  349. averageJoseph says:

    Brrrrr…

  350. aJ, you can want anything. Obama asked everyone to hold off until all facts are known. That is a reasonable and good way to deal with this.

    Only you and Fox News brings up The New Black Pangthers because no one but you and Fox News listens to them. They have no impact on blacks for anyone else but you. Obama doesn’t have to single out all the people talking trash, or he certainly would have to call you out by name.

  351. averageJoseph says:

    I know, we shouldn’t expect this president to be consistent. We shouldn’t expect him to apply the same standard when he doesn’t feel like it.
    As far as the panthers… the other networks were complicit in fraudulantly trying to paint Zimmerman as a “white hispanic” racist. Why would they report on the panthers and Spike Lee, or anyone else that would interfere with their agenda?

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