Letters to the Editor

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BUDGET: Family planning cuts would hurt low-income women

Letter by Liz Rankin, University Place on March 16, 2012 at 3:36 pm with 138 Comments »
March 16, 2012 3:36 pm

The $3 million proposed cut to family planning in the latest Senate Republican budget is unacceptable. With this cut, 12,500 low-income women in Washington state will lose access not only to birth control, but also to breast and cervical cancer screening and sexually transmitted infection testing.

Washington state cannot afford these cuts. With every $1 the state spends on family planning, the state saves $4.10 in maternity care. By cutting $3 million to family planning services, the state will end up spending way more in nine months as a result of unintended pregnancy care costs. Does this sound fiscally responsible?

The average out-of-pocket cost for birth control (pill, patch, shot and ring) is $45 to $90 a month. Add in $150 for one office visit and the total out of pocket cost per year for birth control is $690 to $1,230. Women who are living paycheck to paycheck with no insurance cannot afford to pay for birth control.

We need to stop making this a moral issue and do what is best for low-income women and children and for the state’s budget. Simply telling women to be abstinent is unrealistic and asking them to pay for their own birth control is ridiculous, because they are not able to afford it.

Leave a comment Comments → 138
  1. BigSwingingRichard says:

    “Washington state cannot afford these cuts.” Really?

    Some might say the State of Washington cannot afford these payments.

  2. Why am I financially responsible for someone else’s personal choices?
    Because they are poor?

    And note how the author lumps birth control and cancer in with sexually transmitted diseases. Apples, oranges and grapes.

    Liz, I won’t make it a moral issue. Don’t make me pay for it.

  3. IBMaxine says:

    Birth control is part of basic female health care. Birth control is a health issue. Not all females want to get pregnant. Not all females can get pregnant and do so safely. Giving birth is still a hazardous undertaking, many still die in childbirth. The bottom line here is you either pay the smaller amount upfront to prevent pregnancies, or you pay later in prenatal, neonatal and child raising/care costs. Also remember that not everyone who needs assistance for these things will need them forever. Most people manage to provide for themselves eventually. I for one, would rather stem the tide of unwanted pregnancies by having some of my tax dollars pay for birth control. What has happened to the ‘Christian’ thought of taking care of the disenfranchised?

  4. itwasntmethistime says:

    Gee, Maxine, there is another way. How about self control? If he wants it, she can say NO until he comes up with a condom. It worked for me when I was poor.

  5. LornaDoone says:

    Self control?

    Maybe you can tell us how a woman can invoke self control on uterine diseases, ovarian cysts and a host of other problems that contraceptive hormones solve. Can they wish it away?

    As to self control, ask Bristol Palin how well that works. Some women are trying to be intellectually honest and take preventative measures. Of course, they don’t have mommy and daddy’s new found money to bail them out. Plus, they probably won’t get a shot at DWTS.

  6. LornaDoone says:

    “What has happened to the ‘Christian’ thought of taking care of the disenfranchised?”

    Well, Maxine, you have to realize that if these needy women would just show up at the churches these people attend, and properly beg, they’ll reach in their pocket and throw an extra quarter in the collection plate, but if they have to pay an extra dime in taxes, well that is just plain WRONG!!!!

    ;)

  7. Great letter Liz, not only does family planning save the state money but the services are vital for many men, women and teens and build healthy communities. They provide a range of health services and are the only health care providers for many uninsured people. Increased cuts to family planning will lead to the closing of many clinics and have devastating effects on the men, women and teens who rely on them for healthcare services.

  8. cclngthr says:

    LornaDoone,

    Yes, self control. Self control means you make your own choice whether you want to have a kid by having sex or not. Self control also is making an intelligent decision NOT to have sex. Period.

    jizp,
    Why can’t the low income person go to the regular doctor to get healthcare they need? Most of them likely are on DSHS anyway, or should qualify for it.

    As far as teens are concerned; sex should be the last thing that should be on their mind.

  9. sandblower says:

    The right wingnuts do not care about poor or disadvantaged people. Look at the responses on these pages day after day. They contain more than a hint.
    Does anyone have trouble identifying the wingnuts?

  10. LornaDoone says:

    “LornaDoone,
    Yes, self control. Self control means you make your own choice whether you want to have a kid by having sex or not. Self control also is making an intelligent decision NOT to have sex. Period.”

    I’ll ask the question again, since you missed it the first time. How does self control help ovarian cysts and uterine diseases?

    How is life in your cave? Speaking of intelligent decisions, make one for yourself. Decide to educate yourself on the use of hormonal therapy for things other than birth control.

  11. “I’ll ask the question again, since you missed it the first time. How does self control help ovarian cysts and uterine diseases?” LornaDoone

    Those are medical issues, not contraceptive issues and not a matter of self control. Please do not cloud the issue.

  12. itwasntmethistime says:

    This letter was not about uterine diseases and ovarian cysts. It was about preventing unintended pregnancies. For every Bristol Palin there are multiple teen girls who choose to say no.

  13. I know that in this Liberal Backwater Sewer, I’ll get thoroughly beat up for such an insensitive thought…but what if those “disenfranchised, low income women” stepped up and bettered themselves so they weren’t disenfranchised or low income anymore?

  14. concernedtacoma7 says:

    How dare you!!! Individual responsibility?!! No, it is all the 1%’s fault and we are owed free stuff.

    Bush is bad! Palin is an idiot with terrible daughters. BM is a comic genius. BHO has a past we can ignore because he gives a good speech. $5 gas is great because Sec Chu says so, and it will make everyone drive a Prius.

    LD- I leave any dem talking points out?

  15. aislander says:

    Aspirin tablets are cheap, and, in this context, reusable…

    I heard that the Obama campaign is dispatching operatives to influence forums and blogs. Anyone remember LuckyCharm? IBjust sayin’…

  16. LornaDoone says:

    Well, to quote the letter writer, since we are going to suffer from tunnel vision:

    “We need to stop making this a moral issue and do what is best for low-income women and children and for the state’s budget. Simply telling women to be abstinent is unrealistic and asking them to pay for their own birth control is ridiculous, because they are not able to afford it.”

    Aside from that, the same pills can be used by the same women, at the same cost to the taxpayers for endometriosis.

    Oh hell, there I go, thinking outside the box again.

  17. aislander says:

    Too late, and I am educating a bunch of kids as to the true meaning of America: freedom and opportunity!

  18. LornaDoone says:

    “but what if those “disenfranchised, low income women” stepped up and bettered themselves so they weren’t disenfranchised or low income anymore?”

    Maybe take one of those jobs that were outsourced to Vietnam? It would be like working and getting a vacation, too!

    “Why can’t the low income person go to the regular doctor to get healthcare they need? Most of them likely are on DSHS anyway, or should qualify for it.”

    Yeah. Instead of living paycheck to paycheck, trying to be responsible for herself, just quit and get welfare. That’s the ticket!

    While blogging I was watching an old episode of Frasier. Daphne’s mother was asking her about the canned food she was packing and Daphne told her she was donating to the poor. Her mother said “it must be nice being poor so that people will give you food”.

    I’m guessing her mother blogs on the TNT.

  19. LornaDoone says:

    Speaking of education, have you read the Georgetown insurance requirements and Fluke’s testimony or is your face still stinging?

  20. concernedtacoma7 says:

    She made a choice to attend Georgetown. If she had the grades/connections to get in there, she could have gone to many other institutions. So could her roommates and friends.

    If they can spend the tens of thousands on school, they can afford $10 a month on ‘health’.

    Individual responsibity. $10 a month.

    Non-issue. PR scam on the American people. Thankfully the polls show it is not working.

  21. LornaDoone says:

    Speaking of individual responsibility, why does the Catholic Church get to rip those kids off. The pay for insurance, trusting that their needs will be covered and much to their surprise, ovarian cyst?….nope, won’t provide the meds the doc rx’d because “we don’t wanna”.

    When the student is paying the bill, why does the church get to call the shots? What kind of “responsibility” is that? In certain situations it would be called “theft”

    Which contraceptive (by name, please) is only $10 per month? I’ll be cross checking you on this. How many times do you want to be embarrassed today?

  22. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Nope.

    How about you get a job while in school, like I did? $50 = 5 hours of work. Or, since your income is so low, you go to a FREE clinic.

    You are subsidizing lazy.

  23. elmerfudd says:

    What kind of loser begs the government for free contraception? Absolutely pathetic!

    Maybe we should provide them with free toilet paper as well, since without the gubmint helping out they probably won’t have the means to wipe themselves either.

  24. Why does the right think that the dark ages are so great that they want to drag the nation back to them?

  25. Love how the regular pubs post misogynistic remarks and then claim that it isn’t a war on women, it is just a war on the poor.

  26. Too funny….The comments from that nasty, responsible right pretty well nailed it, while the loonie liberals try so pathetically to correct them!

    This place is so entertaining.

    I am hopeful that the ridiculous ideology of the left that has taken this country deeper and deeper into a dark, dark toilet (morally if nothing else) is finally running its course, and conservatism (I did not say fanaticism) will resurface and put this nation back on the even keel where it belongs!

  27. Conservatism is whats wrong with this nation dcr.

  28. Dale – Santorum has promised that, if elected, he will make a war on obscenity a high priority. Yep….I really want my President to be focused on dirty magazines.

  29. “Thankfully the polls show it is not working.”

    You keep trying to get people to believe that yet, the polls show it’s the right that is losing this,and badly, and the best part…..it’s their own trumped up phony issue.

  30. LornaDoone says:

    “How about you get a job while in school, like I did? $50 = 5 hours of work. Or, since your income is so low, you go to a FREE clinic.
    You are subsidizing lazy.”

    Well a couple of things come to mind. You didn’t attend law school, obviously. The course requirement doesn’t necessarily lend itself to part time work. Then, of course, there is the unemployment rate in the US. We don’t have enough jobs for people seeking full time, much less a student that can only work certain hours. Maybe we can fly a plane to Vietnam and let them all work a shift in one of the outsource job centers and then bring them back to go to school. I mean, as long as you want to be ridiculous about this. I’ll add to the festivities

    I guess you didn’t get the memo about defunding “free clinics”. Besides this thread is actually about working women in low paying jobs.

    Finally, $10 per hour student jobs = $50? How about SSI, Medicare, witholding tax? And tell me where those jobs are since many $10 per hour jobs require a college degree. No, I won’t look those up for you, just check Craigslist for openers

  31. itwasntmethistime says:

    Lorna — The reason most young adults graduate from college with a staggering, instead of manageable, amount of student loans has everything to do with the lifestyle they choose as a student. My friend’s kid just graduated from UW with about $30,000 in loans, which I hear is less than many of her friends. This kid had a car, a cell phone, digital cable, her own bedroom in a pretty nice apartment, designer clothes, an exciting social life, and scores of fantastic memories from the spring break trips and long weekends in Vegas. Neither kid nor Mom considers any of these items luxuries.

    I, on the other hand, graduated from college with no student loans because I worked 80 hours a week over summer and during breaks, shared a 1-bedroom apartment, didn’t have a television, and ate at home. I drank plenty of beer, but it was with friends in someone’s apartment instead of out on the town. It’s obvious this girl had way more fun than I did, but she’ll be paying for it for a long time.

    Don’t EVEN whine about not being able to afford contraception if you own a cell phone. It’s nothing but priorities.

  32. the3rdpigshouse says:

    So the rationale here is that should I become poor, I should then become a forced burden placed upon other citizens??? Our nation is sinking into the socialist pit of dependency!!! Get rid of the socialist democrats and start creating work rather than dependency! The U.S. Senate under “OH-Bummer” refuses to establish a federal budget for three years and we think they know how to solve our nations problems??

  33. itwasntmethistime says:

    Lorna — Minimum wage is something like $9/hr. $10 jobs are hard to find, but $9 jobs are not. It’s not hard at all to find a job for 2 hours a few evenings per week bussing tables, and lots of business are looking for someone to cover the weekend shifts their full-time employess would rather not take. Retail jobs over Christmas and Thanksgiving break are easy to find. Anybody without a felony record can find a job babysitting over spring break when parents with school-age kids are desperate for child care. Will working part-time pay for college? No, but it’s that much less you have to borrow. The thing is, college kids don’t want to work part time. They don’t want to miss any fun, and they certainly don’t comprehend the concept of having to pay back their student loans.

  34. LornaDoone says:

    “$10 jobs are hard to find, but $9 jobs are not”

    That’s why unemployment is at 8% or more?

    “they certainly don’t comprehend the concept of having to pay back their student loans”

    How much more can you demonize a student? Grad students, especially 30 year olds, have plenty of understanding of the debt they’ve incurred. It will haunt them for the rest of their lives, until paid. The system provides that they don’t have to pay, as long as they are in school. What better way to delay payment, but to add to the debt. I know crack dealers that are less sharks.

    Since you are worried about “your money” – how much does each federally funded contraceptive dispense cost you personally, after you share the cost with millions of other taxpayers?

  35. LornaDoone says:

    “Don’t EVEN whine about not being able to afford contraception if you own a cell phone.”

    Ever try to get a job without a phone?

  36. LornaDoone says:

    “My friend’s kid just graduated from UW with about $30,000 in loans, which I hear is less than many of her friends. This kid had a car, a cell phone, digital cable, her own bedroom in a pretty nice apartment, designer clothes, an exciting social life, and scores of fantastic memories from the spring break trips and long weekends in Vegas. Neither kid nor Mom considers any of these items luxuries.”

    Probably had mom and dad’s insurance for contraception.

    How about the 30 year old woman putting herself through law school?

    I don’t see Bristol Palin spawning any more. I wonder why? Maybe the created job in a radio station because she was on DWTS, because of who her mother is took care of her needs. Or, since she is under 26, she can just ride the coattails of mom and dad’s policy that is a retirement perk of mom being a state employee for 2 years.

    If you need to castigate, lets broaden the spectrum.

  37. LornaDoone says:

    “So the rationale here is that should I become poor, I should then become a forced burden placed upon other citizens???”

    Well that didn’t take long. LOL

    While blogging I was watching an old episode of Frasier. Daphne’s mother was asking her about the canned food she was packing and Daphne told her she was donating to the poor. Her mother said “it must be nice being poor so that people will give you food”.

    I’m guessing her mother blogs on the TNT.

  38. LornaDoone says:
    You confuse medical issues with contraception. Ovarian cysts have nothing to do with contraceptives, and are treated without birth control. If you don’t want kids, refuse to have sex. It is that simple.

    What you propose is use laziness as a excuse for several issues that people should take responsibility for. You have a kid, take ownership of that responsibility and take care of it yourself without requiring everyone else to pay for it.

    itwasntmethistime,
    When I went to college, I was working full time as well; and my employer (at the time) had a program if you stayed with the district, and wanted to move up, the district agreed to pay tuition and books as long as you had decent grades and stayed employed. Technically, I didn’t have student loans, but I worked for a district which allowed people to advance their education as long as they stayed employed and planned on moving up in the ranks within the district. I started off as a para, but in a short period of time, I had a teaching position.

  39. Lorna,
    No sex is actually free, at zero cost, and does not need any contraceptive.

    If a person is unwilling to accept that $9.00 job (and there are plenty of them out there), they really don’t need to be working and should fend for themselves without having any other person pay for it. Let them be homeless and live on the street.

  40. itwasntmethistime says:

    Lorna doesn’t feel it’s realistic for women to have the self control to say no to unprotected sex. Doesn’t think much of women, does she? I think it’s just the women she keeps company with. Of course, now that I think about it, she’s probably right because 2/3 of the country doesn’t have the self control to stop eating when they should. She’ll blame that on poverty as well even though it’s way cheaper to eat healthy whole foods than the processed crap that makes you fat.

    Can I demonize students more? Sure I can. If you’re a full-time student you’re probably not paying a penny in income tax so who the heck are you to dictate how much of OTHER people’s income tax goes toward your sex life?

  41. “Don’t make me pay for it.”

    Yeah, you’re right. I opposed the Iraq War from day one, so you can pay my share – it’s about $3,000. Tell you what – when you hand the cash, I’ll give you back $1 to pay for your taxes for women’s health care. Does that sound like a deal?

  42. Spending money we don’t have, going deeper into debt, and having no responsible plan hurts low-income women now and in the future.

  43. “find a boyfriend who can afford condoms.”

    Wow, you’re really taking the high road, aren’t you? Nice job of keeping the tone of these fora so civilized.

  44. aislander says:

    ManuelDoone: It is not currently possible to post on the Limbaugh thread. I think the Trib shut it down or something, but I do want to respond to your post saying that the students are paying for their insurance, therefore the Church has no obligation in the matter.

    Obligations can be–and in this case, are–other than monetary.

    The Church is obliged, if Fluke, et al are successful, to arrange for group insurance that covers things the Church considers immoral. We’ll see where the courts are on this, but it is hardly the settled matter you insist it to be.

    Your assertion that the school get out of the business of providing group insurance for students if it is not willing to include contraception, abortifacients, and sterilization coverage is fatuous and doesn’t merit further consideration or reply…

  45. Pure economics—spend the money to help with Birth control now, at a lower cost……or spend the money on assistance later, at a higher cost. And, I am sick of these males who think birth control is some luxury……..the failure rate on condoms isn’t great and we don’t see you brave men lining up to get yourselves fixed, do we?? As long as women are the ones who get pregnant, this society has a responsibility to help them make responsible, smart choices. You don’t want more abortions, do you???? Birth control is a very good health care measure to avoid THAT argument. Quit victimizing women—support their health care needs and recognize it is not every woman’s fantasy to be pregnant……..Some of them CANNOT AFFORD this and need help………Why should they have to justify their poverty??? Sometimes , we behave very much like the Taliban does with women and it’s not okay………

  46. What is it about the words “family” and “planning” and helping poor people that sets the Talibangelists into a fit of rage? It’s irrational!

  47. LornaDoone says:

    “If a person is unwilling to accept that $9.00 job (and there are plenty of them out there)”

    Oh, the old line about people are unemployed because they want to be.

    “Lorna doesn’t feel it’s realistic for women to have the self control to say no to unprotected sex. Doesn’t think much of women, does she?”

    If you can demonstrate to me that there are no unwanted children being born and abortion is non-existent, then I’ll apologize for the remark I didn’t make (you created that strawman).

    “You confuse medical issues with contraception. Ovarian cysts have nothing to do with contraceptives, and are treated without birth control. If you don’t want kids, refuse to have sex. It is that simple.”

    I’m not sure if this person is being purposefully ignorant or is just living in a cave. The testimony of Sandra Fluke spoke of a friend that suffered from ovarian cysts whose doctor rx’d a contraceptive, but the college insurance wouldn’t pay for it and questioned the honesty of the patient and the doctor –

    “These denials of contraceptive coverage impact real people. In the worst cases, women who need this medication for other medical reasons suffer dire consequences. A friend of mine, for example, has polycystic ovarian syndrome and has to take prescription birth control to stop cysts from growing on her ovaries. Her prescription is technically covered by Georgetown insurance because it’s not intended to prevent pregnancy…….In sixty-five percent of cases, our female students were interrogated by insurance representatives and university medical staff about why they needed these prescriptions and whether they were lying about their symptoms. For my friend, and 20% of women in her situation, she never got the insurance company to cover her prescription, despite verification of her illness from her doctor.”

    I’m amazed at how people purposefully avoid information about this issue.

  48. itwasntmethistime,

    Women having no self control? probably under Lorna’s definition since Lorna wants the government to provide, for free services which assume everyone is a retard and cannot think for themselves.

    I was taught self control, and would have my testicles blown off by my parents if I lacked self control.

    menopaws,
    It takes a male to provide the sperm to impregnate a woman. When women succumb to male desires, they make the automatic choice to get pregnant. The easy choice is to refuse to have sex, or be sterilized.

  49. Lorna,
    Ovarian cysts are not cured with contraceptives. There are other means to prevent them. My mother had them and she chose surgery to remove the affected cyst and ovary. Smoking is known to increase the chances of such conditions.

    Bet those who have the cysts also smoke, or have been around such chemical; including second hand smoke.

  50. “$10 jobs are hard to find, but $9 jobs are not.”

    How can you be that out of touch?

  51. LornaDoone says:

    ccIngthr – when did you get your medical degree? It sounds like Georgetown needs your kind of medicine to deny contraceptives to students whose doctor prescribed them.

    Anyone that would post this – “It takes a male to provide the sperm to impregnate a woman. When women succumb to male desires, they make the automatic choice to get pregnant. The easy choice is to refuse to have sex, or be sterilized.” – is the problem. How about MEN CONTROLLING THEIR DESIRES?????

  52. “I, on the other hand, graduated from college with no student loans”

    You couldn’t do it again, not today.

  53. aislander, whats with you and the name calling?
    Are you that juvenile?

  54. LornaDoone says:

    Kluwer, yes, they are that out of touch.

    “since Lorna wants the government to provide, for free services”

    Actually, I’d like to start with insurance companies and patients making decisions, not religious groups.

    Truth be known, this is the best case for nationalized medicine I’ve ever seen, but with regard to your neaderthal-like comments, I’ll not expect that we could ever come close to a rational coversation on that subject.

  55. LornaDoone says:

    Anyone that repeats “why” over and over and over, would qualify as at least “juvenile”, possibly “infantile”.

  56. aiSlander:“The Church is obliged, if Fluke, et al are successful, to arrange for group insurance that covers things the Church considers immoral.”

    FLIP:The Catholic Church objected to being put in the position of paying for those things”

    FLOP:“Doesn’t matter who pays, it’s about who participates.”

  57. LornaDoone says:

    Lets use the mythical $9 per hour job as our base:

    x 40 hours per week (as if a student could actually to that) – $360

    less 20% (generously) for taxes etc – $288 per week

    x 52 weeks……………..$14,976 a year, just about pays tuition, books and living expenses

    Now, who was saying you don’t need student loans in this day and age?

  58. LornaDoone says:

    ehill, I got tired of mopping up all the water aislander was spilling while carrying for the Church.

  59. LornaDoone says:

    “which assume everyone is a retard and cannot think for themselves”

    Where is Sarah Palin’s faux outrage when we need it?

  60. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Wow, the left is really reaching this morning.

    LD_nos, she is a college grad, or how else could she be in law school? And walk around any mall in America, a clean cut college kid can get a job. We have 8+% unemployment because people are lazy and liberals subsidize it. There are jobs out there, but 99 weeks UI and people are not motivated. The progressives have made everyone feel like an entitled victim, vs someone with pride who turns away a handout.

    Ehill- want to go to school and have no debt? Go to a state school and WORK while in school, get support from family, live within your means.

    Or, join the service. Zero debt!

    College kids went from sharing small rooms and eating noodles to iPhone toting, BMW driving know-it-all hippies. Poor them!! This women, Fluke, can afford a trip to Spain. BC is not an issue. If her friend was so poor, Ms Fluke could have given her the $10!!!!

  61. “We have 8+% unemployment because people are lazy and liberals subsidize it.”

    Dumbest thing I’ve read in months.

  62. LornaDoone says:

    “Or, join the service. Zero debt!”

    And a free, all expenses paid trip (or two, or three or four) to the war of your choice.

    So many of the Congressional representatives encourage their kids to enlist in the military, if we just get a few more, we might have something other than poor kids getting blown up and enjoying college from a wheel chair.

    The rest of CT7’s example that he didn’t read a damned thing about the 40 hour a week/$9 per hour job isn’t worth commenting on. I’m not going to spoon feed these conservatives that refuse to digest the facts of life.

    As to the “99 weeks of UI”, CT7 forgets that you must actively seek work during an unemployment claim. Now watch for the anecdote about “a friend that did so and so and collected unemployment”

    Conservatives are not so good at story problems. They claim that there are jobs sitting there waiting for all the unemployed people in the United States until you point out a blood red state with high unemployment, then they’ll tell you that there are no jobs unless you are a minority, who have the highest unemployment rate. Their solution always ends up with a baseless assertion and no fact.

  63. LornaDoone says:

    “Fluke, can afford a trip to Spain”

    I’d love to see a reliable media source on this. Next they’ll have her taking a trip to Uranus with Newt Gingrich.

    Of course as usual, the issue with Fluke was not one of money, as much as the question of why her insurance THAT WAS MANDATORY THAT SHE PAID FOR, didn’t cover her meds.

  64. LornaDoone says:

    I find a site “Liberty News” that somehow got a hold of a bunch of pictures taken in Europe. (hacked a picture account?)

    They don’t say what year, they don’t say who paid, they don’t say why anyone was there. (one wonders of a student of her prowess was scholarshipped for study in Europe, something that conservatives never do….right?)

    Guilt by association. Saul Alinsky would be proud, right?

  65. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Google before you respond next time.

    UW Tacoma. $3400 a semester. Live at home and GET A JOB. While difficult, it can be paid for in $9/hour job.

    Used books, and sorry, no iphone or BMW.

    Or, you can go through an ROTC program and go to most states schools for free!

  66. aislander says:

    No flip-flop whatsoever. Since it appears that the Church’s institution doesn’t handle the money, but still handles the arrangements, that equals participation. Really, this should be simple enough for even a reflexive lefty to grasp…

  67. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    beerBoy says:
    Love how the regular pubs post misogynistic remarks…

    Except… there is not a single misogynistic remark posted by a “regular pub” up thread of your comment at 5:37 AM, bB. In fact, there are no “misogynistic remarks” up-thread of you post, , by any other person holding a view on the topic that happens to be at odds with yours.

    I guess you just couldn’t wait to use the word “misogynistic” in this thread, and since no one had played along, you just invented an application.

    bB – in full campaign mode. Been through a few with you bB – I recognize the symptoms.

  68. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Actually, AI, this one from hilly had the milk spurting from my nostrils:

    Wow, you’re really taking the high road, aren’t you? Nice job of keeping the tone of these (forums) so civilized.

    That loud wrenching sound you hear is the sound of staining credulity tipping the hypocrisy scale heavy to the left. Don’t think it’s bottomed-out yet, though.

  69. vox – I’m not surprised you didn’t see the misogynistic remarks.

  70. “We have 8+% unemployment because people are lazy”

    Here’s a challenge for you. Why don’t you go to your closest local unemployment office and tell every person there that they’re lazy.

    Unless, of course, you’re too lazy to do it.

  71. “No flip-flop whatsoever. Since it appears that the Church’s institution doesn’t handle the money, but still handles the arrangements, that equals participation.”

    But you didn’t object to participation, Mr. Slander. You objected to “paying for those things”, remember?

    Fail – try again.

  72. When was the Republicans in control of anything in Olympia? Look to the lib’s and their massive spending increases, if it weren’t for them there may be enough money available but I think not. For a lib there is never enough money…What nonsense…

  73. concerned? WHY are you so concerned about everyone else’s affairs when it comes to money and birth control? You are a frequent poster on this issue. For someone whose married and working, this seems to be a huge issue for you. That being said, Ah-Hem… when I pay for my insurance, my prescriptions are covered. I pay that every month, and if BC pills are prescribed from my physician then MY insurance covers it. My medical history and current status is confidential. Its none of your or my employers business. Period. Maybe I don’t want to cover your Ritalin (collective you) or your diabetes 2 supplies and I’d rather you take responsibility for your kid and get off the couch and lose weight. Or if you (collective again) get cancer, maybe I’d rather you quit smoking or quit eating hormonal laced red meat- OR maybe you don’t need viagra because last I heard, lack of sexual performance has never killed anyone. I pay insurance and taxes just like everyone else. I think we can all agree that this slippery slope will get more and more slippery if we allow any employer or government legislation limit our access to prescribed medicine. Bottom line? Get over your pious selves and mind your own affairs.

  74. aislander says:

    No Vox, I’m sure it hasn’t. What I’ve noticed is that pretending not to comprehend makes them look as stupid as actually being unable to comprehend. Wouldn’t think they’d want that, but there’s a reason their lefties, I guess…

  75. aislander says:

    Frida: It’s not about birth control; it’s about forcing religious institutions to go against their moral precepts.

    Now, I’m going to try to erase the mental picture conjured up by your post…

  76. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Frida, I am concerned for th Constitution, government over-reach, and the entitlement society. I am for choice and responsibility. If you enter into a contract (in this case attending a school that does not cover BC), you own that decision. It was a conscience choice.

    As someone who is firmly in the right on most issues, I take personal offense to fake war on women. You personnaly wanted BC, and found a way to get it. If any woman in America wants it, it is there for free or near free. 2 lattes equals the cost at Walmart or Target.

    This is a debate over principles, not BC. Every woman in America minus some kid Fluke knows can get BC. Pelosi puts on an act and both sides get fired up. Good PR, poor taste, and a deflection from the real issue. Church vs State and individual responsibility.

  77. cclngthr says:

    concernedtacoma7,

    When I went to college, I bought used books whenever I could. Saved money that way.

    Frida,
    What ConcernedTacoma is not wanting is everyone wanting a handout and expecting the government to provide this or that; or demanding such entitlement when it should be the responsibility of the individual to provide for oneself.

    I do think it is the responsibility of the employer or insurance company to know medical status to determine whether the individual has behaviors that warrant a higher cost; and such treatment may not warrant treatment due to the behaviors the person has. If the person eats unhealthy foods, and does not take care of themselves, why ahould the company pay for such treatment when the behaviors the person has does more harm than good.

    Lorna,

    What you don’t think about is such conditions are actually preventable without contraceptives. Those who I know with the condition are not taking care of themselves; usually are overweight, smoke, drink and don’t want to do things that prevent such conditions.

  78. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    vox – I’m not surprised you didn’t see the misogynistic remarks.

    Nor am I surprised at your furthering baseless insinuations.

    Callin’ your bluff, bB – show ‘em. Show us what inspired you to make that comment earlier. And if you insist on lumping me in, you’d better find proof to back that up as well. I’ll accept any misogynistic remark I’ve supposedly ever made on any thread as proof you’re right.

    I’m all-in beerBs.

    As I said, full-on panicky campaign mode. Your stretches would make Gumby run from a twister game with you.

  79. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:
  80. lylelaws says:

    itwasntmethistime,

    I have been part of these back-and-forth comments for some time now, and I think your 8:36 A.M comments which spoke volumes,were about the most reasonable, honest,and truthful statements that have ever been posted on the subject.

    Great letter

  81. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Which contraceptive (by name, please) is only $10 per month?

    What is this, your idea of a trick question?

    It’s been widely reported that generic BC pills are available for roughly $9.00 per month at places like Costco or WalMart.

    If you need specifics, you’ll have to ask your OB Gyn… Lorna.

  82. “Kluwer” offers a simple one-liner stating that ‘conservatism is what is wrong with America”…Nice, typical liberal baseless rant.

    Kluwer..Now then expand on that, exactly what is it that makes Conservatism the blame for all this nations ills?

    We wont hold our breath, you cant answer that without a litany of liberalisms and buzz phrases.

  83. Frankly, I’m not so sure Kluwer, or any of the other local liberals can even accurately explain what a Conservative is!

  84. aislander says:

    Dcr628: That’s for sure. During the time I’ve been on this forum, a number of liberals have averred that the Founders were liberals, just like those who post here, with not the slightest idea how different a classical liberal is from a progressive (or whatever cover they are operating under).

    The other side of the coin is the assertion that the mullahs in Iran are conservatives, obviously believing that we will draw the inference that American conservatives are just like the mullahs.

    In truth, the Founders, classical liberals that they were, are the lodestar for contemporary American conservatives.

    It matters WHAT one is trying to liberalize or conserve…

  85. itwasntmethistime says:

    Lorna — Go back and re-read my post about the $9 jobs. I didn’t write that you should be able to pay your way through college working full time for $9. I wrote that if you picked up a few short shifts each week at $9 you could make a serious dent in your student loan debt. Try this: $9/hr x 10 hr/wk x 52 wk/yr x 85% (you’d pay social security and medicare and probably some L&I but not one penny of income tax at this income level) = $3978 per year. Do that for 4 years and you’ve shaved $16,000 off your student loans. If you don’t think $16,000 is a heck of a lot of money it’s because so far you’ve been spending other people’s money. When it’s your $16,000 that you earned yourself you’ll think it’s a lot of money.

  86. aislander says:

    …wrote “their” when I meant “they’re.” It’d be nice to be able to edit.

    The only way to “correct” a mistake is to point to it, circle it, highlight it, and wear it like an albatross…

  87. Pay for birth control, pay for health care but simply stop paying for women to have more babies; Pay for them to get their tubes tied as it is a procedure that can be reversed should they ever be able to afford another baby. Even pay them a financial reward for getting it done.

  88. menopaws says:

    Wpw!!!!! I was right–The american Taliban is alive and thriving,,,,,,,,,Mean-spirited and stupid……..Good luck with that at the polls. Women outvote men and you guys are hardly shining examples of real manhood. Go take some lessons at the Base, or follow around a Minister in a poor neighborhood for a few days………Good letter, great points and the clueless continue following the Yellow Brick Road into political obscurity!

  89. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Meno- emotion vs reason. Period vs enter key.

    Your bitter, angry, emotional posts only show how the left rely on ‘feelings’ and rhetoric vs reason and the Constitution.

    While you are whiling to throw away centuries of greatness in search of an european dream, patriotic Americans are not.

  90. Meno- emotion vs reason. Period vs enter key.

    Condescension is the last refuge of the testerone-challenged protector of patriarchal privilege.

  91. aislander it is a bit aggrandizing to turn your misspellings into the Rime of the Ancient Mariner….

  92. Frankly, I’m not so sure Kluwer, or any of the other local liberals can even accurately explain what a Conservative is!

    I have only seen one person give an accurate definition of what he believes a conservative is and, it was pretty much exactly how he thought he was.

    If you look through history, the definition of either liberal or conservative is pretty time-specific and changes from generation to generation.

  93. vox – the other thread has more examples but ct7’s little jab towards menopaws was certainly a dishonorable mention.

  94. Now….with Santorum claiming that his job as President will be to be the morals police…..could someone explain again how this recent turn into reproductive/gay/porno issues is just a way for Obama to deflect?

  95. Must be the weekend, aislander vox and the other rightwing extremists are doing their usual attacks and juvenile name calling, knowing it will stay posted until mid day Monday at the earliest.
    I wonder why they aren’t banned out right since they do this every weekend and most days during the week.
    This forum does have rules doesn’t it?

  96. “I am concerned for th Constitution, government over-reach, and the entitlement society. I am for choice and responsibility.”

    No you’re not, if you were you won’t be blindly voting the R.
    Your party has done more damage to those things then any other at any time in history.

  97. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    … ct7′s little jab towards menopaws was certainly a dishonorable mention.

    First you’ll have to be more specific. I didn’t see the misogynist meter move on that one. But even if true, have you read any of meno’s posts? Misandrous content would be an understatement. But then, in the tradition of the liberal double standard, in this case what is okay for the goose truly is misogyny for the gander.

  98. LornaDoone says:

    “Do that for 4 years and you’ve shaved $16,000 off your student loans. If you don’t think $16,000 is a heck of a lot of money it’s because so far you’ve been spending other people’s money. When it’s your $16,000 that you earned yourself you’ll think it’s a lot of money.”

    Student loans are not “other people’s money”. It’s a loan. You owe it for a lifetime, until paid.

  99. sandblower says:

    Someone asked: Conservatism = a reactionary defense of elite privileges against challenges from below. It is always, at its core, about subjugating society’s lower orders. Its populist appeal speaks to and for people who have lost something, marrying this sense of loss to authoritarian models of restoration through variously, the state, the work place, gender roles or race. It is power over, rather than power to, that links conservative practice. It has a serious contradictory allure to non-elites.

  100. Why not avoid all this quibbling and just have contraceptives issued free to those who have endometriosis or some similar disease that is helped by taking them. I got the disease because of a badly done caesarean. I believe the dosage required to help the pain is lower than birth control pills normally are as my doctor said it would not be very effective BC. Only one way to avoid pregnancy then. Didn’t make my husband very happy but then he wouldn’t agree to getting snipped!

  101. LornaDoone says:

    moiraz – you’ve contributed a very logical step in the right direction. Please cease this sort of activity. Don’t you realize that such logic would removed the First Amendment rights of the Catholic Church and the Constitution was written for them to manipulate?

    It’s funny how men think that being responsible for birth control will somehow decrease their manhood. I find it to be just the opposite.

  102. aislander says:

    I was told the Church-provided insurance covers birth-control pills if they are prescribed to treat a disease, although it seems we are on the verge of defining pregnancy as a “disease…”

  103. LornaDoone says:

    “I was told the Church-provided insurance covers birth-control pills if they are prescribed to treat a disease, although it seems we are on the verge of defining pregnancy as a “disease…”

    “I was told”. I think that is called heresay. Since we are going to use heresay, how about a first person account?

    In sixty-five percent of cases, our female students were interrogated by insurance representatives and university medical staff about why they needed these prescriptions and whether they were lying about their symptoms. For my friend, and 20% of women in her situation, she never got the insurance company to cover her prescription, despite verification of her illness from her doctor. Her claim was denied repeatedly on the assumption that she really wanted the birth control to prevent pregnancy. She’s gay, so clearly polycystic ovarian syndrome was a much more urgent concern than accidental pregnancy.

    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sandra_Fluke_testimony_to_US_Congress_%282012_February_23%29

    A little bit more than “I’ve been told”

  104. aislander says:

    Geez, MMLD, you’re really invested in this, aren’t you?

    So, your source is the “contraception activist,” Sandra Fluke: what’s hers? Seems that’s “heresay,” too…

  105. aislander says:

    By the way, that’s NOT a “first-person account,” since St. Sandra, Maid of Fluke, is quoting her “friend…”

  106. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Since we are going to use heresay, how about a first person account?

    ‘Scuse me, Larna, but did you mean to say “heresy”? Because unless Ms. Fluke is prepared to reveal her straw man, I’d have to call her statement “hearsay.

  107. “Isn’t it accepted liberal law that one cannot comment on another subject unless said subject is the same race, religion, sex, etc, etc?”

    No. Try again.

  108. “Seems that’s “heresay,” too… “

    Nice use of the “but all the other kids are doing it” excuse.

  109. aislander says:

    Damn. I just noticed my gratuitous apostrophe…

  110. aislander says:

    I think the tree must have been misidentified. Perhaps it’s the one that produces the poison fruit liberal jurists are always getting the vapors about…

  111. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    It’s that ‘ol double standard (actually triple standard in this case) thing at play: Misandry is always tolerated by the left, as long as it’s not directed at 0bama – any comment about a liberal woman is automatic misogyny – any misogynistic comment about a conservative is simply not understanding the humor.

    BTW, before I suffer any more deletions today, I’d like to apologize in advance to all peanut butter sandwiches for mocking their lack of originality.

    Ahhh, March Madness – LOVE IT!!!!

  112. aislander says:

    Perhaps you can redeem yourself in the eyes of the p-b-j sandwich lobby, not by comparing originality but rather intelligence. The lunchtime staple is certain to shine…

  113. Oh and Vox? Doesn’t it make fiscal sense to get a vasectomy rather than issue 20+ years of the too low dose pill that is USELESS for BC, and also invest in another form of BC on top of that, running the risk of life threatening ectopic pregnancy that would require an abortion and more trauma to the woman? I hope you don’t run a business because it looks like your profit margin would be nonexistent. And yes, no matter what a woman’s political or religious affiliation, she does have a uterus and ovaries to contend with which men do not have. How can they POSSIBLY KNOW what such conditions as pregnancy, c-sections, ectopic pregnancy, ovarian cysts, uterine fibroids, feel like or appreciate the risks without ever consulting a doctor or hearing from women? This is an issue between women and their doctors, NOT for the US Congress or the church to make.

  114. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Her husband is selfish and it is now society’s problem?

    She is getting her meds, just not what she ‘wants’, versus what she ‘needs’.

    Her personal problems are solved by A) finding a decent guy, B) not having sex, C) spending $10 a month for BC.

    And as pointed out here many times, even the Church covers BC if it is for a medical condition vs recreation. Ms Fluke and her ‘friend’ are one, un-proven, example out of the millions of American women doing just fine.

  115. menopaws says:

    Just for future reference—I give as good as I get……….I don’t believe that women should have to tiptoe around to prove they fit this society. ….And, if you plan on treating me or mine like second class citizens, or “sluts’ whose sex videos you need to watch…….I will slam back at anyone who thinks it is okay to treat women as second class citizens of this country. I don’t apologize for being strong willed and in defense of women. With some of the cave man postings—trust me–it isn’t hard for any of us to get riled up, particularly those of us who had to listen to this junk in the 60’s and 70’s…….And, I stand by the “American Taliban”…….I am not the first woman to say it and I won’t be the last. …….You want to name call–get used to the favor being returned………I don’t have to justify it any more than the so-called gentleman of this blog have to justify their crap…………Like I said—the women of this country don’t like being jerked around—get used to a lot of anger and name calling………

  116. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    PBJ’s and Lorna Doones – makin’ me huuungry… if not smarter.

    But I was remiss in not apologizing in advance to all metronomes for the insensitive comparison of them as well.

    Back to the topic:

    Oh and Vox? Doesn’t it make fiscal sense to get a vasectomy rather than issue 20+ years of the too low dose pill that is USELESS for BC…

    Long question, short answer; yes. And in this case I would certainly agree that insurance could pay for it.

    I hope you don’t run a business because it looks like your profit margin would be nonexistent.

    Well… at the moment it sure seems it is. Pretty sure that will begin to correct with the”change” in administration next year.

    How can they POSSIBLY KNOW what such conditions as pregnancy, c-sections, ectopic pregnancy, ovarian cysts, uterine fibroids, feel like or appreciate the risks without ever consulting a doctor or hearing from women?

    See my 10:33 AM comment.

    This is an issue between women and their doctors, NOT for the US Congress or the church to make.

    Again, I don’t necessarily disagree – in the instances you describe. But the fact is they are not the “issue”. The “issue” is whether the government can mandate against religious conscience. Birth control just happens to be (conveniently, for 0bama’s re-election campaign staff) the subject… this time. And it is not “the US Congress or the church” who are trying to make this an “issue”. Clearly, the reason and timing for this manufactured flap would be the fault and objective of 0bama administration, and his re-election effort.

    Frida, I personally don’t give a rat’s pitute whether or not an employer wishes to provide BC coverage to their employees. As a matter of fact, the coverage package we offer to our employees does. Where I draw the line is when government steps in to mandate it, or anything else.

    I should think that would be abundantly clear to the bleeding-heart, broken records types by now.

  117. aislander says:

    To close the loop: submissions from certain members ought to be suppressed as being fruit of the poison tree. (That’s what I was setting up when my wife, who has a sprained ankle, sent me to Freddies). Threw off the timing, doncha know?

  118. itwasntmethistime says:

    Lorna, I see now. You don’t want a simple solution to any one of your problems because then you would have less to complain about. Life is so much more enjoyable when you take charge and stop being a victim. By take charge, I don’t mean being aggressive or pushy, I mean looking at a difficulty or obstacle and wondering how you’re going to overcome it rather than letting it frustrate you.

    For example, if you consider right now the $ amount of loans you will be facing when you graduate from law school you can either choose to be dismayed or even angry, or you can think about what you can do to lower that $ figure.

  119. LornaDoone says:

    It’s certainy funny to get away from the thread for several hours and come back to see how wound up the right wingers have gotten and how personal they try to make their comments.

    I knew that aislander would go sideways over the definition of “first person” in a justification of his “a little bird told me”, versus Fluke’s testimony, which he has avoided reading.

    I’m surprised there was no “Saul Alinsky” moments. But there is the comedy of the same person saying this – “Frida, I personally don’t give a rat’s pitute whether or not an employer wishes to provide BC coverage to their employees.” – and telling someone else that they are bitter. Don’t pull out your magnets. They will stick to the irony.

  120. LornaDoone says:

    itwasn’t – I guess you didn’t like me pointing out that a loan isn’t “other people’s money”. Sorry, but facts are facts. Once someone has borrowed money it is their’s in terms of the responsibility to pay it back, thus not “other people’s money”.

    Funny how you call me “angry and dismayed” because I want to clarify that issue.

    Deflect much?

  121. Where in modern conservatism do we find the right of the state to impose economic martial law such as we now have in Michigan, and how does it fit in with smaller less intrusive government?

    What would the 1st Amendment have to say about suppressing submissions of certain people.

    Oh, sorry, a certain well know conservacon and Constitutional scholar, who frequently posts here, says the 1st Amendment only applies to the Federal Government.

  122. itwasntmethistime says:

    Lorna, I skipped over the “other people’s money” because, again, you misread, but I didn’t want to nitpick. Go back and read my post again. I didn’t write that borrowed money was “other people’s money.” I wrote that if $16,000 isn’t a lot of money to you, then you have been spending other people’s money.

    You’re absolutley right the loan is your responsibility for life. That’s why it’s such a shame that many college students don’t do everything they can to keep their cumulative balance as low as possible. I’ve met more than a few young adults who have been paying on their student loans for 3 or 4 years and wish they could go back in time and take on a minimum wage job for 10 hours a week, or take the bus to campus instead of paying to own a car, or cancel the cable TV.

    A lot of people really don’t get what they are doing to their future when they borrow more than they need, but they sure feel it later.

  123. Threw off the timing, doncha know?

    The wise man, in a comic vein, knows that without timing all his efforts are worth nothing. He starts anew, patiently waiting for the next time his timing will be more apt.

  124. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I have never felt any bitterness and disdain from menopause…

    beerBoy
    MARCH 17, 2012 AT 5:01 PM
    “I’m not surprised you didn’t see the” misandrous “remarks.”

    Fixed.

  125. Concerned? Millions of American women are doing fine because they are able to get Birth Control Pills through their insurance that they pay for. THAT is how BC Pills are $10 a month. Wasn’t this issue settled years ago when Viagra was immediately covered? Is anyone noticing that many of the same people who are “against government intrusion on their religious beliefs” are also the same ones who want to do away with Planned Parenthood? So therefore, the COST of birth control pills WITHOUT insurance or planned parenthood will be up to $80 a month. Being pro women’s health doesn’t make us angry women, think of it this way… its less child support payments and poverty.

  126. Emotion=Liberal….Reason=Conservative…..That pretty well accurately says it. As it has for the last 50 years. (at least)

  127. hansgruber says:

    If it is really true then it has become a very sad day in America if you are in a Graduate Program (means she already has a 4 yr college degree) at a private university and want the Federal Government (aka taxpayers) to pay for your $10 per month birth control pills program that Georgetown Univ offers.

    If it is really true…..

  128. LornaDoone says:

    “in a Graduate Program (means she already has a 4 yr college degree) at a private university and want the Federal Government (aka taxpayers) to pay for your $10 per month birth control pills program that Georgetown Univ offers.”

    Well now, hansgruber has won the prize for the most misrepresented statement on Sandra Fluke and Georgetown University.

  129. LornaDoone says:

    http://reason.com/archives/2004/10/20/pathologizing-conservatism

    Here, Dcr – something for your game of off topic ping pong.

    Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’ on the river

  130. itwasntmethistime says:

    Frida, birth control pills are just one means of birth control. If $80 per month is too steep for an uninsured woman to afford there are cheaper methods. Condoms are only a couple bucks each and can be found at just about any corner store on the planet. When used CORRECTLY they are effective.

  131. LornaDoone says:

    Church owned college: “Purchase our mandatory insurance.”

    Church owned college: “How dare you want to make contraceptives mandatory?”

    “When used CORRECTLY they are effective.”

    Yeah, unless your talking about my grandson The “prolife” folks have something to say about condoms:

    http://www.prolife.com/CONDOMS.html

    Girls Still Get Pregnant!

    Did you know that you can use a condom and still get pregnant? A variety of studies have found that condoms have an “annual failure rate” of 10% to 36% when it comes to preventing pregnancy.

    Can you imagine the consequences for a couple when their condom fails? It happens all the time! One of the studies found that among teenagers, the condom failure rate regarding pregnancy was 36%! On average, that means that one out of every three teenage couples using condoms will become pregnant each year.

  132. LornaDoone says:

    “you’re”

  133. Ortingmom says:

    I have my own struggles! I work very hard everyday, do the same. You pay your way and I will pay my way. All of this “attack on Women” is a bunch of Liberal/Socialist garbage.

  134. Amazing how the right wingers get away with violating the TOS with nearly every post.

  135. LornaDoone says:

    Ortingmom – tell you what, you can avoid your share of contraceptives, if I can avoid my share of the defense budget. Fair?

  136. aislander says:

    Er…defense is mandated by the Constitution. Contraception mandates? Not so much…

  137. Ortingmom says:

    The Defense Budget has nothing to do with this discussion. Love your cookies :)

  138. Thanks for the link LornaD….However it turned me off when it got to “Right Wing Authoritarians”, since MOST Conservatives are not “authoritarian”. At least not me, nor those I know. I think the authoritarian label crops up when the FEELINGS of Liberals need a scapegoat. I’ll look into that link later to see if it says anything different.

    And in my honest opinion, I sincerely do believe that the average Liberal runs on feelings, emotion, and ideology where the average Conservative follows fact, reason, results, and reality. I think that is one reason why the two cant seem to work together. The Conservative knows that most Liberal ideas, while they may sound warm and fuzzy, just arent part of the real world. Just look at the results on society based on liberal ideology. Our culture has completely lost its moral compass for one thing.

    Of course I’ll be beaten up and “corrected” for that comment, but oh well.

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