Letters to the Editor

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MARRIAGE: God has already decided

Letter by Vince A. Wagner, University Place on Feb. 15, 2012 at 11:16 am with 48 Comments »
February 16, 2012 10:09 am

Scripture is explicit that if you elect ungodly leaders, then ungodliness is what you will get.

Given our state’s leadership history, why should anyone be shocked that our leaders could be so haughty that they feel they have some baseless pseudo constitutional right to redefine something that didn’t originate with man?

Didn’t God decide on marriage from the very beginning when he created Adam (male) and Eve (female) and commanded, “For this cause a man (male) shall leave his father (male) and his mother (female), and shall cleave to his wife (female); and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24)?

All scripture on marriage clearly emphasizes the unmistakable and the complete identification of the two personalities in and of marriage. All scripture clearly cites the purpose of God in creation that husband (male) and wife (female) only create the spiritual unity of marriage.

Our governor’s signature, abolishing all restrictions on marriage, does nothing more than undermine the truth and authority of scripture to further an agenda. Homosexual activists have run a remarkable campaign to take the focus off of what homosexuality is and what homosexuals do, putting the focus on who they are.

The truth about marriage doesn’t need a movement or an agenda to further its cause; redefining marriage by imposing homosexual “marriage” on society does

Leave a comment Comments → 48
  1. all of your scripture is old testament. do you still sacrifice animals for your sins? do you eat pig or shellfish? do you observe the sabbath?

  2. ManuelMartini says:

    Enjoy your superstitions.

  3. “Our governor’s signature, abolishing all restrictions on marriage”
    This maybe is the most obvious lie of all the lies in this letter.
    Otherwise, lots of tortured appeals to authority and rhetoric just to justify bigotry.

  4. Not bigotry, espousing morality!

  5. ManuelMartini says:

    espousing “morality”?????

    What is so moral about an obsession with the relationship of two consenting adults, especially the intimacies of said relationship?

    I find something quite immoral about people who continue to stick their nose into others personal affairs.

    Frankly, the most immoral people I know are somehow tied to religion.

  6. lynnhank says:

    Well, let’s see… If we take the myths of the bible seriously, and their implications:
    You should stone your neighbors who work on the Sabbath.
    You should rape the women and kill all males of a tribe you have defeated.
    You should burn on oxen in your backyard every weekend.
    Just for starters, of course…
    You’ll find everyone in that ‘book’ you so dearly seem to like.

  7. SandHills says:

    Pretty soon it’s going to get down to how far our society is willing to bend to accept any deviant behavior on the basis of “civil rights” (that argument itself based upon a singular point of “pursuit of happiness”).

    I suspect it will will be pushed so far that it will be very difficult for America to stand on any solid moral grounds against those fervently willing to go to paradise in order to wage jihad on us based upon their view of morality – and even the most fervent Southern Baptist is but a pale shadow to Muslims on the issue of homosexual behavior.

    We are already split between red state and blue state politically, once we split again on morality (whether based upon rigid religious doctrine, or those where anything is should be seen as a civil right if it makes you happy), we will find ourselves on much less common ground as a nation to face those who are zealous enough to die for their point of view

  8. I always wonder why there is so much energy used to attack gay marriage, which is a tiny, tiny number, when Jesus is clearer in his support of Moses’ statement about marriage in the Genesis passage that divorce is not allowed.

    It seems like good Bible followers would attack the major problems and largest targets of immorality in society first like people who are divorced. Why do good christians not attack the government for allowing divorce?

  9. Youre right Sand Hills. This country is in the sewer.

    As far as “common ground”, the last time this country even remotely pulled together in recent years, was during the days right after the 9-11 attacks. In those days people got all warm fuzzy, and patriotic. Even George W. Bush enjoyed a stellar public support. People even stuck little U.S flags on their cars.

    Then the flags fell off into the muddy ditches, the war everyone wanted got boring, and the fickle American public turned against each other.

    We’ve been falling deeper into the sewer ever since. Good grief, less than forty years ago, even rock stars included Jesus in some lyrics! But the “it’s my right” crowd found those nasty rules and guidelines too restrictive to their self indulgent choices, and now even the Bible is a bad thing.

    Political Correctness has done to the fabric of this country what the terrorists never could.

  10. …By the way, I’ll still hold to MY core beliefs.

    Homosexuality, and homosexual marriage is just wrong. Not spreading hate, or bigotry, or trying to make anyone feel bad, and if you have that kind of lifestyle it’s your business.

    I just don’t/won’t buy into the popular opinion hype.

    End of story, end of argument.

  11. SandHills, are you saying that we should have our own jihad in America on people who have a different view than you do so that Muslims will only meet a foe who all agree with your personal definition of morality?

    Are your saying that your view of religion is the equivalent of morality for everyone else? I personally feel that gay marriage and two people forming a family united in love and forsaking all others is a very moral thing for our society.

    Are you ready to fight the battle against divorce, which I find immoral and totally unjustified?

    Who should we make illegal and incarcerate or kill first, gays or divorced people?

  12. ManuelMartini says:

    Yeah…I remember the good old days of post-9/11. If you disagreed with the Republicans you were a traitor. Heck a decorated war veterans were called traitor. We need more of that.

    The Republicans talk of “morality” and then get caught with their hands in the cookie jar – lesbian bondage bars in Los Angeles, among others.

    We need more morality that says “what I do is right, but what you do is morally wrong”.

    Bring back that old time religion!

  13. ManuelMartini says:

    When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross. – Sinclair Lewis

  14. SandHills says:

    Tuddo, you are reading much more into what I stated – those rhetorical questions are of your own words not mine.

    But since you brought it up, I do believe we could be heading in that direction – and I have stated we (American society) are much more entrenched in our schism of views than we were since 1860 (where there was only one issue, not many as we have today).

    I pointed out how much weaker we are with all these divisions among us, vis-a-vis foreign threats. You brought out an even more ominous threat of where these entrenched divisive views may be leading us as a country no longer “indivisable”.

  15. Theefrinker says:

    It clearly states in my preferred version of The Three Little Pigs that the wolf is big and bad, and yet many still remain on the Endangered Species lists. Who are we to question the divine word of Pig?

  16. @Dcr628
    “Not spreading hate, or bigotry, or trying to make anyone feel bad, and if you have that kind of lifestyle it’s your business.
    I just don’t/won’t buy into the popular opinion hype. End of story, end of argument.”

    Bigotry. I don’t think this word means what you think it means.

    From M-Webster: “a bigot: a person who is *obstinately* or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices”. [emphasis mine]

    At least you did not follow “it’s your business” with the common “but keep it to yourself”, for the intolerance part.

  17. SandHills, I think you have too rosy a view of our nations history. In South Carolina, where my grandparents lived, Catholics were routinely burned out of their houses and even killed in the early 1900’s for being idolators and traitors to our country. They were held in the same kind of fear and derision as are Muslims today. In Texas, German Catholics and German Lutherans fought actual wars against each other until the 1930’s.

    Mormons both committed murder and mass killings in the name of their religion and were victims of extreme violence by those opposed to their religious views.

    I won’t go on with the history lessons, but people have been using actual violence to prove that their “morality” was greater and purer than other people’s “morality” ever since our nation was founded.

  18. wildcelticrose says:

    Sorry bud, but your mythology has no place in our government.

    If you think “freedom of religion” means denying rights to other people, perhaps you’re unclear on the concept.

  19. SandHills says:

    Tuddo, so what are you saying? If you think my view paints a rosy picture, then I certainly may have understated my point that many in our nation may already believe we have reached a threshold to tolerate everything under the sun in the name of tolerance. If you truly believe SC will tolerate or acknowledge a gay marriage then you are the one with the rosy outlook.

    I was only commenting that if the divisions expressed here on this forum – and remember this is a forum on the “left coast” ( with the 9th district court) – are this great, one would really like to see what those in the deep red states like the Palmetto State would express on such an issue as homosexual marriage.

    Many on this forum are truly zealots about promoting gay marriage – do you really think they could change those entrenched from the other side of the argument by spouting the civil rights?

    My issue is in a broader sense of how truly divided we are – and if those devoted to the cause that the homosexual lifestyle is the same as civil rights, or daresay slavery, are they going to be willing to go as far as John Brown did at Harpers Ferry to press their point.?

    Homosexual behavior is not a civil rights issue – and it may come down to a pre-1860 America where battlelines will be drawn between gay states and straight states.

  20. Tuddo says: Mormons both committed murder and mass killings in the name of their religion and were victims of extreme violence by those opposed to their religious views.

    Would like to share a link to this because you shouldn’t spout crap without backing it up? Mormons were the victim’s in mass killings and extreme violence.

  21. Roussir, you may be correct to a point.

    I am certainly, at least to those who know me best, not “intolerantly devoted” to my beliefs. I am actually quite bendable when I can be proven that another way is better. So according to your reference, I guess I beat the bigot card. In this case, I see nothing right about it. Just my opinion.

    Those who choose this way of life (where it is a choice or not is yet to be proven) are welcome to it and more power to them. I however wont bend to it, just because it is the new thing to do based on enlightened modern thought fueled by political correctness.

    In other news, just a simple “Hmm, with a shaking head” regarding other comments.

  22. ManuelMartini says:

    Homosexuality is not behavior, no more than heterosexuality is behavior.

    Now what IS behavior is when alleged heterosexuals attend lesbian bondage shows in LA.

  23. ManuelMartini says:

    Darlin – an education and google works wonders.

  24. ManuelMartini says:

    It’s facinating how the same mindset that says homosexuality is behavior would have said “negroes have diseases and have to use a different bathroom” about 50 years ago.

    Lack of knowledge is a wonderful thing.

  25. By the way, I’ve been divorced TWICE. And I’ve been just about everywhere at one point or time in my life. Where I haven’t been I know those who have. Some of it good, some of it not.

    My life has been very well seasoned. That being the case I am probably more qualified to form and voice an opinion than some.

  26. Hey Manuel!! I swear I saw some of that lesbian bondage stuff at Home Depot! They had it in five gallon pails over near the duct tape!! :D

  27. Darlin, since others have answered, I will just add this. Some of the worst kinds of mass killings have been one faction of a particular sect in a particular religion trying to bump off another faction of that same sect to make sure only their version of religious views would survive.

    Certain sects of Mormons killed other Mormon sects members to try to become the most powerful.

    It has happened in the name of God many, many times in the world’s history with almost every religion you could name, and in the history of the USA.

  28. SandHills, I know that deeply held religious beliefs are hard to change, and intolerance is a way of life for many people. I think South Carolina will change when the Supreme Court rules that states must provide equal protection for gays under the Constitution just like they did for blacks and for interracial marriages.

    South Carolina has many churches who still will not marry interracial couples, many churches who will not even allow a black person to join, and that is their right. However, the government must give equal benefits and treat everyone equally no matter how strong certain people hold their religious beliefs about the sin of racial intermarrige and it being abhorrent to God’s will.

    I still have theological arguments with relatives in South Carolina who truly believe the word of God does not allow for interracial marriage. I won’t ever convince them otherwise, and that is OK, because American values of equal protection under the law will always triumph in secular matters like marriage licenses.

  29. Holy cow! Not only is Dale back to old form (I remember him annoying me severely many years ago on this very same topic until he went biking with wcr and decided that this internet silliness was just…well…silly) but wildcelticrose has commented as well.

  30. And it looks like Jimm’s back too.

  31. vingrotto says:

    Division of church and state people. You can’t fight that. The church has NO say in what the state does. Get over it.

  32. Tuddo says: Certain sects of Mormons killed other Mormon sects members to try to become the most powerful.
    There is only ONE Mormon church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – Other sect’s that call themselves Mormons may or may not have not been a member at one time but they are not true Mormons. When the Mormon church first started it was them that were victimized.

  33. wildcelticrose says:

    hasn’t been much worthy of dealing with the troll fest on these boards over(some present company excepted of course ;) until this latest batch of political hoopla reared it’s ugly head…

  34. SandHills: Thank you for the link, here’s the truth: Mormon public relations have evolved with respect to the Mountain Meadows massacre since it occurred on September 11, 1857. After a period of official public silence concerning the massacre, and denials of any Mormon involvement, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) took action in 1872 to excommunicate some of the participants for their role in the massacre. Since then, the LDS Church has consistently condemned the massacre, though acknowledging involvement by some local Mormon leaders.

  35. “Didn’t God decide on marriage from the very beginning…”

    Well, God may have decided on how the human race would procreate by creating Eve for Adam, and knowing before-hand that they were going to screw-up and He’d have to kick them out of The Garden, but there was no marriage ceremony involved in Genesis was their? If there was, please tell me the chapter and verse, so I can find it.

    If God made all things, which it also states in The Bible, then why did God make homosexually oriented people as well as heterosexually oriented people? He must have had a purpose in mind. Mustn’t he? Can we know what is in the mind of God, or the details of God’s Master Plan?

    I’m a New Testament Christian anyway, so whatever it says in The Old Testament is interesting, but I don’t feel it’s all the relevant to Christianity today, or even in the days when Christ created Christianity.

    What did Jesus say about marriage? That’s what should really be important to Christians. After all, Jesus is The Christ! Right?

  36. whitecap says:

    MM provides this quote: “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross” and attributes it to American author Sinclair Lewis.
    First, the source of this quote is much in dispute, some say it’s from Lewis, many others say it’s not. (Accuracy is not one of MM’s strong suits).
    Second, Sinclair Lewis, avowed atheist, active socialist (for much of his life), twice divorced incurable alcoholic.
    So MM, this is the person you look to for ideas and guidance?
    Your accusations of fascism would better be directed at someone who would force the entire populace to obtain health insurance or risk being penalized or perhaps at someone who would trample of the free exercise clause of the 1st Amendment or require insurance companies to provide free benefits. Not that that could ever happen here.

  37. Darlin, The largest group of followers of Joseph Smith killed, executed, assassinated and used other means, including more legal and humane ways, primarily excommunication, to consolidate their power in their church so now they can claim to be the “one true Mormon” church. And, yes, as I have previously stated, Mormons were persecuted. However, often their own violent actions created a sinister quality to their movement.

    In Missouri, for example, mysterious deaths of dissenters in the Mormon church and threats of assassination of top Mormon leaders from the pulpit by Sidney Rigdon (who claimed to be Joseph Smith’s “true spokesperson”) of people he had himself excommunicated helped fuel the fire of Missouri residents fear and hatred and bolstered the opinion that Mormons were violent and dangerous.

    Rigdon declared in his sermon and written pamphlets endoresed by Joseph Smith about excommunicated dissenters: “it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.”

    There are still several sects who call themselves Mormons and claim direct heritage from Joseph Smith, and they, too have LDS in their name, including the Fundamental Church of LDS. Their beliefs are actually much closer to Joseph Smith’s and Brigham Young’s, so the LDS in Salt Lake could rightly be called the “reformed” LDS or the “LDS of the later, added-on prophecies”.

    It is only through the power of money and the great PR machine in Salt Lake that makes the same claim you do about “one true Mormon church”. The large LDS church is certainly the most powerful, but their claim is only as valid as their PR and power make them to be.

    The Roman Catholic Church still says today that they are the one true Christian church and stayed that way for a long time through centuries of murdering, killing, inprisoning and otherwise intimidating other Christians.

    Many evangelical Christian churches preach that Roman Catholicism (along with LDS) isn’t even a Christian Church, so there is a continuing battle on who even gets to be called Christian.

    Most of the wars in the Middle East are, at their most basic, religious wars for control of Islam among various Islamic sects. Each one claims to be the “one true” Islam.

    I don’t know if you are LDS or not, but you sure don’t know Mormon history very well.

  38. Tuddo: And you do? I think not

  39. Booger02 says:

    I am just wondering which version of Christianity that the letter writer would like to have in control of the government? I would think that if you are afraid that gay marriage will destroy traditional marriage then why not outlaw divorce? I think that if same sex people want to marry then let them, I am not seeing the problem.

  40. Darlin, your statement that there is only one Mormon church told me all I needed to know, that you are either uneducated about Mormon history, or you are purposely making misstatements of facts. The first I can help you with, the latter is between you and your conscience.

  41. Tuddo, in my opinion the is only one Mormon church and not the fundemental Mormons or any other offspring of the LDS church. You are the one who is uninformed so put a sock in it.

  42. And the church should be protected from state inteference, right?

  43. Darlin, you have a right to your opinion that goes against all known facts. That what most religion is all about, believing things even though they are not factual.

    I have a right to state facts and not have someone tell me to “put a sock in it”. Stating facts is not being uninformed. Actually, it is the opposite.

  44. put a sock in it.

    Quite an elegant theological/historical argument…..

  45. No Beerboy, I’m not “back”. As you know, over the past six or seven years I have been in and out of these comment threads. Put my one or two cents in, usually to find my opinion “annoys” ;) or otherwise angers someone somewhere.

    One lesson quickly learned, and one that most of us know. The liberal, while it preaching open-mindedness and tolerance out of one side of their face, in reality it is extremely closed-minded and intolerant of any view other than its own. We’ve all watched the often ugly exchanges right here in these threads of what happens when one offers an opposing opinion.

    I have flirted with the ideas of walking away from this stuff for quite sometime. There is no real free exchange of ideas, and freedom of speech is really not free here. As I said, the liberal mind is not open, and opposing views are never welcomed.

    When I read a couple of days ago, a comment from a “freind” which was quite frankly a public character assassination that went beyond catty because my opinin was apart from the accepted view (thank you editors for removing that), it was at that point that I decided I’d had enough. As I’ve said, there is no real free exchange of ideas here.

    So at this point I will let the few remaining conservatives carry on the battle in these threads. I just haven’t got interest or time for it anymore. Its been fun Beerboy. Take care.

  46. Dcr628, “One lesson quickly learned, and one that most of us know. The liberal, while it preaching open-mindedness and tolerance out of one side of their face, in reality it is extremely closed-minded and intolerant of any view other than its own.”

    Just to be fair, the conservative can be just as close-minded.

    The further right you go, just as the further left they go, the mind closes tighter and tighter along the spectrum heading outward. Move inward, toward the center, and you can open it up bit by bit as you make your way to the center.

    Like the old saying goes: “Like a parachute, the mind works best when it’s open.”

    Keep it closed, on either end of the philosophical spectrum, and you’re in for a hard landing.

  47. One difference Muckibr, and by the way your point is well taken, Conservatives, at least in the way many people take them, aren’t generally known for preaching about keeping open minds or tolerance, even though MOST true conservatives do both quietly.

    On the other hand, liberals shout it as a badge of honor, when in fact they are not. Frankly, the average liberal is little more than a hypocrite.

    That being said, this seems to be a good place to step out. I’m done.

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