Does Romney give enough to charity?
Those who are trying to portray Mitt Romney as unsympathetic to the poor should be reminded that he and his wife gave more than 15 percent of their income to charity in the last two years. He declined pay while governor of Massachusetts and will do the same if elected president. Has anyone else ever done that?
When I watched Romney’s speech after the Florida polls closed, I had flashbacks to when Andy Williams invited the Osmond family children to be on his show. When I looked at his wife and children, one word came to mind: wholesome.
While I don’t practice religion, I can say that I have never known a Mormon who wasn’t hard-working, honest and very family oriented. But just as some tried to use John Kennedy’s religion against him, some will try to do the same to Romney. However, I think most of us are far more concerned about getting Americans back to work and restoring our national image in the world than someone’s religion.
After all we have been through in the last three or four years, I think we deserve some R&R – as in Romney and Rubio!
Nobody has done a better job of portraying Romney as “unsympathetic to the poor” than Romney himself…
All 3 Kennady boys declined their pay while serving in elcected and appointed positions.
Glad you feel the need to protect Romney, Lyle.
I don’t care if Romney gives 100% of his earnings to charity, that still doesn’t mean he understands the needs of the poor in the United States.
Being born with a silver spoon in his mouth makes him say dumb things.
Is that 15% over and above his tithe?
To answer your question, he should be paying around 30% of his income in taxes. All of his income should count. There shouldn’t be any difference in percentage between income earned on a job and income earned through investment.
Lyle – 2/3 of that contribution is mandated tithing to his Church so his contributions to charity that aren’t mandated are 5% of his income.
xring,
I didn’t know that the Kennedy brothers declined pay for serving their country, but I salute them for doing so.
BeerBoy,
Are you saying that Romney’s church doesn’t help the poor? Would that make you a bigot?
“Those who are trying to portray Mitt Romney as unsympathetic to the poor…”
I’m sure there are some who are trying to portray Mitt Romney as unsympathetic to the poor, but they don’t really have a very hard job now do they.
After all, Mitt said it himself. He’s not concerned about “the very poor”, “they have a safety net” and they can stay in that “safety net’ forever as far as Mitt is concerned.
At least , that’s how it sounded when Mitt said it. Sure sounded pretty unsympathetic to me!
BHO loves the poor so much he wants to increase their numbers by millions. Mitt wants to make everyone’s life better.
Mitt is the best thing going for this country. Even mickey mouse would be better than obama. Don’t forget that Mitt built his empire with hard work, long hours and deserves every penny he has made, it was not handed to him. Leftie’s would vote for leftie’s no matter who they are. You can not change those with narrow minds.
“Mitt wants to make everyone’s life better.”
EXCEPT for “the very poor” who Mitt said he is “not concerned about”.
Darlin, “Leftie’s would vote for leftie’s no matter who they are. You can not change those with narrow minds.”
And just who do righties vote for? How many posts have we all seen here saying that they don’t care who the republican nominee is, they would vote for whoever it is?
BTW, are you at all familiar with the correct use of apostrophes in English composition?
Seems to me I read somewhere that George S. Patton also declined his Army pay as a General during World War Two.
Seems to me, the very rich often go about their business thinking of things greater than themselves.
I’ll bet I hear it for that unpopular sentiment!
Darlin, the same thing can be said for the far right. Doesn’t matter how lame a candidate their party puts up they still vote the party ticket.
Lyle – I wouldn’t say that Romney’s church doesn’t help the poor but they certainly do other things that I (and many others) would not consider charity. Giving to one’s church if you are a devote follower is not charity it is a duty. So I would consider what Romney has given to his church a charity. I believe in Romney’s eyes it is probably his duty and also a nice tax deduction, which we all know he loves to take the maximum advantage.
Lyle – No. I inferred nothing of the sort. I made no reference to whether or not I felt that the LDS Church does good works (which, as a matter of fact, is one of the very positive things about the Church)
Nice try at trying to demonize me for pointing to a fact.
Again: as a member of the Mormon Church, Romney is required to tithe 10% of his income.
As a comparison – Mitt’s father, George Romney, gave the Church 19% of his income while returning what he felt was overcompensation to American Motors during his stint as CEO. He also paid 35% income tax while donating an additional 4% to non-Church affiliated charities. And – unlike his son – he actually came from poverty.
“Silver spoon, in other words his parents were affluent. Why is that a bad thing again?
So getting ditched by your father and having a loose mother breeds a better, more understanding President? Nope.”
Who better represents the larger portion of Americans? A man raised by a single mother, or a child of a wealthy family?
I don’t begrudge the Romneys of their success. I’m just saying Mitt doesn’t have a clue as to how the middle class lives. He proves it by opening his mouth.
“Loose mother” – there’s a new one.
“Don’t forget that Mitt built his empire with hard work, long hours and deserves every penny he has made”
If you call bankrupting companies and pension programs and leaving the taxpayers with the bill “hard work”……
Sounds like a president from Texas…..”hard work”. He also came from a wealthy family and was handed his start in life – several times.
Maybe alindasue will weigh in on the LDS poverty assistance programs. I can’t say for sure, but I do know when my brother died 15 years ago, his family didn’t have much. The Church assisted with his funeral and it stopped there. They were members, blessed in The Temple.
Until participation in the Chuch of LDS is madatory, all tithing is voluntary.
“When I looked at his wife and children, one word came to mind: wholesome.”
Let’s discuss this comment, Lyle.
Would you also look at the Obama Family and say “wholesome”?
How about the Gingrich Family? The Cains? Santorums?
“But just as some tried to use John Kennedy’s religion against him, some will try to do the same to Romney. However, I think most of us are far more concerned about getting Americans back to work and restoring our national image in the world than someone’s religion.”
You might want to direct that statement at the Evangelical Christians.
“After all we have been through in the last three or four years”
I agree, Lyle. Let’s go back to January 2008 and then walk slowly through history with a long pause at September of 2008 – a time that your party wants to forget and blame on someone else.
Oh and Lyle….how about the “wholesomeness” of the Palins?
Maybe you could write an LTE on the “wholesomeness” of all of the Republicans.
There are companies that need to go bankrupt, and companies whose resources could be better used by others. Some need to be pared down. Others need a management change or an infusion of capital. That is called dealing with reality. We need elected officials who understand and employ that concept.
As I understand it, the companies that Romney and Bain Capital saved and created (THERE’S a phrase, huh? But in this case, it’s true…) are responsible for more jobs than were eliminated in any bankruptcies and liquidations…
bobcat1a: If I would have been of voting age when JFK ran for president I would have voted for him, a democrat, but I was not. All I am trying to stress is that obama is not right for the job, scares the stuff out of me and was elected on his “hope and change” lies. America has gone down hill since he took office. He takes credit for everything good that has happened in his presedency but all bad is blamed on Bush. He need to be voted out of office, period, the end!
ManuelMartini, AKA Kardnos, AKA ???, AKA???
Is there something wrong with saying that the Romney family looks wholesome?
Don’t you think they do?
Wholesome….like tying a dog to the roof of your car for a 12 hour drive?
Paganism is wholesome because it faces the facts of life.
Aleister Crowley
Lyle….are you embarrassed to give a straight answer?
Since you are the “wholesome” judge, I wanted to know your opinion of the Obama family.
“scares the stuff out of me and was elected on his “hope and change” lies.”
Now THERE is someone that cannot tell us precisely what alleged lies were told.
Since we are going to judge people on “lies” – which time was Mitt telling the truth about his stand on abortion?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jan/28/john-mccain/romney-has-changed-his-stand-on-abortion/
Let’s watch the spin begin.
Lets be clear about Romney’s job:
Romney and his team also maximized returns by firing workers, seeking government subsidies, and flipping companies quickly for large profits. Sometimes Bain investors gained even when companies slid into bankruptcy.
Bain managers said their mission was clear. “I never thought of what I do for a living as job creation,” said Marc B. Walpow, a former managing partner at Bain who worked closely with Romney for nine years before forming his own firm. “The primary goal of private equity is to create wealth for your investors.”
It seems that the taxpayers picked up the tab while Romney and his associates made money for themselves and those wealthy enough to invest.
As I understand the companies that Romney and associates bankrupted were middle class wage earner jobs. Romeny’s retail operations pay minimum wage.
Maybe, with Romney at the helm we can have twice as many jobs paying half the market rate.
Lyle Laws wrote, “Those who are trying to portray Mitt Romney as unsympathetic to the poor should be reminded…”
What should they be reminded of?
They should be reminded that it was Mitt Romney himself who said these words to Soledad O’Brien on a televised interview,
“I’m in this race because I care about Americans,” Romney said. “I’m not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there. If it needs a repair, I’ll fix it.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mitt-romney-i-m-concerned-poor-article-1.1015303
Mitt Romney, in his own words, said he was “not concerned about the very poor” You can’t get a much clearer statement than that from any politician of any party. Then, he pretty much confirmed what he said in his failed effort to blame it on a misspoken gaffe. As described below:
“On Thursday night’s Hannity, Gov. Romney abandoned the context argument, and chalked his gaffe up to that political silver bullet, “I misspoke.”
“The problem with that, as Soledad O’Brien pointed out on CNN this morning, is that he didn’t simply “slip up on a word,” or “misspeak.” Misspeaking is when you say “incinerate” instead of “insinuate.” When Romney made his statement on Wednesday’s Starting Point, O’Brien immediately asked him to clarify. “We will hear from the Democrat party, the plight of the poor,” Romney said. “And there’s no question: it’s not good being poor, and we have a safety net to help those who are very poor. But my campaign is focused on middle income Americans.”
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/soledad-obrien-challenges-mitt-romney-claim-that-he-misspoke-about-the-poor/
And why is Romney so “focused on middle income Americans.”? Because he needs their votes, but he can write-off those of the very poor.
Romney’s original statement is one of the most honest statements any politician has yet made this election cycle. Even if it was an accident that he said it, it’s still honest.
Lyle – it was a tax decision – had they accepted their pay it would have ended up paying more in taxes that they received in pay.
CT7 – the two groups increasing the number of poor in the US are the big corporations and businesses that send our jobs overseas and the Rpot party that no longer serve the American People but work for the corporations and the rich elite.
CT & Darlin,
Mitt only wants to make the rich richer by cutting their taxes and by sending more US jobs overseas.
Mitt started rich and got richer by destroying American Companies and (one of his favorite pastimes) firing workers.
At least we lefties have a mind unlike the brain dead zombies who support Romney or any other of the current crop of clowns trying to buy the GOP nomination.
Dcr – Patton’s wealth came from his wife.
Some rich use their power and positions to help others, but most just use their wealth to acquire more wealth and expensive play things.
Aslander – prove that Bane created more jobs IN THIS COUNTY.
It’s hard to consider the Mormon Church a true charity even though that donation ‘tithing’ is treated as a charitable donation by the IRS.
Mm_nos, he bought companies that were already bankrupt. He tried to fix them (saving or creating) or sold off assets. This is the real world, run by adults. He did not send jobs overseas, you know it and so does any self respecting adult.
Looking for someone who sends jobs overseas? Look at BHO’s economic advisors.
concernedtacoma7_nos – I think you need to do some homework. Bain used a law, created by GOP lawmakers, to bankrupt the pension funds and the taxpayers end up picking up the tab.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/newsroom/fsbankruptcy.html
Because of these laws, it is better for the carpetbagger capital company to bankrupt the pension fund than to save it.
Then there is this:
”Bain Capital is the model of how to leverage brain power to make money,” said Howard Anderson, a professor at MIT’s Sloan School of Management. ”They are real first-rate financial engineers.”
But, he says, ”They will do everything they can to increase the value. The promise to [investors] is to make as much money as possible. You don’t say we’re going to make as much money as possible without going offshore and laying off people.”
Not that Anderson has a problem with this approach. In addition to being a business school professor, he has also been a Bain Capital investor.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/17/w-mitt-romney-and-the-loose-definition-of-transferable-skills/
Your bluffs won’t work on this discussion. There is too much documented evidence to the contrary of your BS.
“Look at BHO’s economic advisors.”
Why don’t you tell us who that is. Let’s see if you know more than what FOX tells you to say.
con7: “He did not send jobs overseas, you know it and so does any self respecting adult.”
“MITT ROMNEY’S AMERICA”
“American Jobs Relocated”
“As Governor of Massachusetts, Romney vetoed and attacked a bill that would have prevented state vendors from sending work overseas.”
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2004/07/04/romney_on_disclosure_job_growth/
“Romney’s top economic advisor is an economist who endorses the practice of outsourcing jobs overseas as “probably a plus for the economy in the long run.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/09/06/romneys-economists-brains-but-also-controversy/
“In his private sector career, Romney’s actions show his only concern was profit for himself and other multi-millionaire investors – the impact on American jobs was not even considered. A President with that mindset would be dangerous for American workers.”
http://www.prioritiesusaaction.org/mitt-romneys-america
“More than two decades ago, Mitt Romney’s business venture came to town with a bounty of highly anticipated manufacturing jobs. The new plant, just past the gas station off Interstate 85, needed skilled workers to churn out thousands of photo albums.
Four years later, the Holson Burns Group Inc. — the company controlled by Romney’s Bain Capital LLC — closed the factory and laid off about 150 workers. Some jobs were sent north, where months later many of those were also eliminated. Other operations went overseas.
But Bain walked away with millions in profits.”
Any ideas why Romney didn’t fare well in South Carolina?
You should really stop bluffing, concerned_nos. I’ll call you everytime.
First off Kard, you provide nothing to the debate. He makes money for his stakehders, as was his job.
Bain bought companies already failing.
Once again you prove the left’s ignorance in all thing financial and economic.
Weren’t you kicked off this site for spewing hate and lies?
con7: “He did not send jobs overseas,”
You have been proven WRONG con7. Be a man and just admit it. Or, be a baby and don’t. Your choice. Your rep.
Skilled workers to make photo albums? Sure that was center of business in SC. Grow up Kard.
He did not do it. Economic conditions set by libs sent those jobs overseas.
He did his job, which was to make money.
How many jobs were made by a community organizer? What wealth did he create?
Are we better off today now that BHO has had 3 years at the helm? Would you prefer a businessman, a charitable family man, to take over? The answers are obvious unless you are an anti-Mormon bigot like some on these boards
Ho hum….
“More than two decades ago, Mitt Romney’s business venture came to town with a bounty of highly anticipated manufacturing jobs. The new plant, just past the gas station off Interstate 85, needed skilled workers to churn out thousands of photo albums.
Four years later, the Holson Burns Group Inc. — the company controlled by Romney’s Bain Capital LLC — closed the factory and laid off about 150 workers. Some jobs were sent north, where months later many of those were also eliminated. Other operations went overseas.
But Bain walked away with millions in profits.”
Yeah…I make up these news stories from The Kansas City Star.
Woops…wrong paste
Bain, with Romney at the helm, bought the former Armco Worldwide Grinding System business in 1993, including part of the massive steel plant near the Blue River in northeast Kansas City. A steelworks had operated on the site since the 1880s. At its peak, when it was known as Armco Steel, the plant employed 4,500 people.
That workforce had dwindled dramatically by the time GST Steel took over operations, making steel rods and grinding apparatus.
By 2001, facing increased competition from cheaper imported steel — and several years after a bitter labor dispute at the plant — GST Industries filed for bankruptcy and closed the subsidiary Kansas City operation, dismissing the remaining employees. A spokesman for the company said GST Steel lost $25 million in 2000.
The company also said it could not meet full pension and health care commitments to retirees, the Reuters story said. In August 2002 the federal government, through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., said the company had underfunded its pension obligations by $44 million.
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/01/06/3356924/bain-capital-tied-to-bankruptcy.html#storylink=cpy
I wonder how many times we have to copy and paste news stories, muckibr
So we are getting into a competition overt who gives the most to charity?
The churches will love to hear about that.
Bandito said, “It’s hard to consider the Mormon Church a true charity even though that donation ‘tithing’ is treated as a charitable donation by the IRS.”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is no more or no less a “charity” than any other church.
pantomancer said, “Until participation in the Chuch of LDS is madatory, all tithing is voluntary.”
I think that sums up the issue of Mitt Romney being “mandated” to pay tithing quite nicely. Like all activities in the church, tithing is offered voluntarily.
ManuelMartini,
My reply to you turns out to be a bit of an essay, so I’ll post it separately.
Manuel, I’m not planning to start a counter on con7. If he doesn’t admit he was wrong now, he never will. You know what I mean?
What was the point of that story? He bought the company. Kept it open for years, but competion from overseas made it run at a loss. What could he have done about that? He did not vote to include china in the WTO.
Notice the unions helped destroy the company.
ManuelMartini said, “Maybe alindasue will weigh in on the LDS poverty assistance programs. I can’t say for sure, but I do know when my brother died 15 years ago, his family didn’t have much. The Church assisted with his funeral and it stopped there. They were members, blessed in The Temple.”
Sorry, it took me a while to get here.
It is generally the custom at church for members of a ward (local congregation) to assist families with food and such at funerals and to bring meals to families that have faced a death, hospitalization, new baby, etc – but that is separate from the church’s welfare program.
To fully outline the church’s welfare and humanity services programs would take more space than we have here. It would be better for me to just give you guys a couple links that you can explore at your leisure.
http://providentliving.org
http://mormon.org/humanitarian-aid/
http://mormon.org/service/
Regarding the specific case of your brother’s family, this from the WELFARE SERVICES FACT SHEET—2010 at http://www.providentliving.org/pdf/2010_WELFactSheet_English.pdf:
“The responsibility for each person’s spiritual and temporal well-being rests first upon himself, second upon his family, and third upon the Church.
When members and their families are doing all they can to provide for themselves and still cannot meet their basic needs, they may turn to their bishop for temporary assistance.”
Back about 10 years ago, my husband was laid off from another job and we just had my part time income to support us. I talked to Visiting Teachers, women who regularly visit and check on the other women in the ward, about my concerns and it worked its way up the line to the Bishop. Two days later, the head of our local women’s auxiliary (Relief Society) was over at my house working with me to put in an order for a month’s food, soaps, toilet paper, etc. from the Bishop’s Storehouse up in Kent. It turned out to be enough food for the eight of us that that we were still using part of that “month’s” supply three months later. We only needed the assistance that once, so we only got assistance that once.
If your brother’s family truly needed assistance and let someone at church know about that need, they would have be taken care of. The fact that the family members had been sealed together (different from a blessing) in the temple is irrelevant. They would not even have to be fully active in church activities to obtain aid. Assistance is based on need.
Of course, this is only one facet of the church’s welfare program. The cannery up at the Bishop’s storehouse in Kent is also used for canning foods for Northwest Harvest – but that’s another essay for another day.
nwcolorist, in bringing this thread back on topic, said, “So we are getting into a competition overt who gives the most to charity?”
How much a person gives to charity and to which charities he chooses to give are (or should be) a private issue between that person and his conscience.
Some people give to charity for the sake of giving. Some people give to charity as a tax shelter. Some people give to charity for the sake of giving to charity, but claim some (or all) of the donations anyhow. Only each person and his conscience know for sure. The rest of us are in no place to judge.
That goes for Mitt Romney, President Obama, Vice President Biden, Newt Gingrich, you, or me.
Mr. Laws premise is that Romney’s giving helps the poor. Does his tithing to his church help the poor?
alindasue: Thank you for a great post and the good information. Mormons are generally clean, wholesome, good neighbors, giving, family orientated and so much more. One thing most don’t know, because the church doesn’t advertise or “brag” about it is that they are first responders in natural disasters. For instance when hurrican Katrina hit, the Mormons were there to help even before the Red Cross. Mitt gives to the church what his heart/conceince tells him to give. The only problem I have with him is that he is a little too liberal but I would vote for him against oboma in a fast second.
“For instance when hurrican Katrina hit, the Mormons were there to help even before the Red Cross.”
Nothing against the Mormon Church but I’d like to see proof of this allegation. Since there is a Red Cross office in SE Louisiana and there have been more emergencies than Katrina, it would seem strange for a single church (there is only one LDS Church in NOLA) to be providing relief before the Red Cross.
Baseless assertions sound good in emotional statements.
Now going back to the real subject matter of the letter (however convoluted it might have been) – Lyle Laws attempted to mix Romney’s charity giving with his foot in mouth statement about the poor.
As I said earlier – “I don’t care if Romney gives 100% of his earnings to charity, that still doesn’t mean he understands the needs of the poor in the United States.
Being born with a silver spoon in his mouth makes him say dumb things.”
It has been said – BY GOP OPERATIVES – that Romney doesn’t do well when he gets away from the teleprompter talking points. His cavalier attitude and statement towards impoverished people is a great example. Mitt tried to intimate that 5-10% of people in the US live in poverty. He was wrong. It’s over 16%.
Aside from Mitt’s upbringing in a wealthy family, he did his LDS mission in France – a country with very little poverty, especially in comparison to the United States. It’s very safe to say that Mitt has lived a rather insulated life. (That doggone France is too socialistic for poverty).
Since Mitt lived in France during his mission, should we say that he was influenced by European socialism?
Since emotional statements are vogue on this thread….
Since Mitt lied about his stand on abortion and other issues, I’d vote for Obama in a second, versus someone who lies.
Thanks alindasue. I knew you’d be more up to date on the issues. It’s nice to have facts like you presented versus baseless assertions that appear just plain silly.
It’s income and we have a graduated income tax. Somebody decided a while back to take capital gains out of the ordinary category and put them into a special category. If they can be taken out, they can be put back in since they are income and that is the thing about which we are talking. Nobody can prove with repeatable scientific evidence that capital gains do anything but make rich people richer. Job creation from investments that generate capital gains is a myth. “Why do we care? The economic case for lower capital-gains taxes is that they foster increased saving and faster economic growth. Unfortunately, neither of these theories is borne out by the data.”
Darlin said, “For instance when hurrican Katrina hit, the Mormons were there to help even before the Red Cross.”
I have heard that said, but I haven’t been able to find an independent source to back up that claim other than some references to “churches” (plural) being the first aid arriving on the scene. I also found accusations on some sites that the Red Cross was “slow” in responding to certain areas – but again, not independent sources that could confirm it. There was a lot of chaos going on in the wake of Katrina, so it’s hard to get a full picture of the early timeline of aid arrival.
I do know that the church’s humanitarian aid program is ready to respond to communities (regardless of religion) in the case of emergencies. They were among the first responders bringing in supplies when Katrina hit, as they were when disaster struck in both Haiti and Japan – but, of course, not the only aid to arrive.
ManuelMartini, according to the church’s meetinghouse locator, there are 11 meetinghouses just in the greater New Orleans area (I had to look up “NOLA”) and about the same number of meetinghouses and a temple in nearby Baton Rouge.
Bandito asked, “Mr. Laws premise is that Romney’s giving helps the poor. Does his tithing to his church help the poor?”
According to mormon.org, tithing funds specifically are used for:
- Construct temples, chapels, and other buildings
- Provide operating funds for the Church (no paid clergy though)
- Assist in funding the missionary program
- Prepare materials used in Church classes and organizations
- Perform temple and family history work
So, no. Tithing itself keeps the church running, but aside from some of the missionary works, it does not specifically “help the poor”.
One Sunday a month is “Fast Sunday”. The value of the meals skipped is given as Fast Offering. ALL Fast Offering funds go into the church’s welfare system to help those in need, both within the church and in the general community.
Members are also encouraged to contribute money, time, and supplies to the humanitarian fund, which covers everything from disaster response to hospital supplies in third world countries.
So, it is quite likely that of Mitt Romney’s “15% charitable contributions” listed on his taxes, 5% of it went directly to “help the poor”. The rest of it is charitable, but not necessarily “help the poor” charitable. It should be noted though that the church’s welfare and humanitarian aid administration costs are covered by tithing as “operating funds for the church” and not by those other funds.
alindasue – is this incorrect?
Mormons are required to attend a Tithing Settlement with the Bishop each year. A member is questioned in a one-on-one interview with the Bishop to ensure the member is paying a full 10%. Those members who are not paying a full 10% loose their temple recommends and are prevented from entering the Temple.
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_tithing_section1.html
Living in “might as well be Utah”, I am now a Gentile (the Mormon term for all who aren’t LDS) in the midst of a Mormon-dominant culture. What I see is that the beehive is a well chosen symbol: they are hard-working, industrious, community-oriented, and will go after outsiders with a vengeance.
I am an outsider. I resent the sense of morality that treats “Gentiles” as less worthy of ethical treatment; the “Mormon Mafia” and their overt cronyism that, if I was able to produce the “smoking gun” would entitle me to a fat settlement for their illegal and unethical attempts to prevent me from competing equally for meaningful and gainful employment within a state institution.
BUT – I acknowledge that Mormons are friendly folks and Deseret Industries and other efforts of the Church do support those who are struggling to make it.
And, speaking with friends (Mormons who have moved here from other parts of the nation) it seems clear that much of the Entitlement evidenced by this dominant culture is directly in relation to physical proximity to Salt Lake City – the closer they are to the center of the hive, the more hubristic the expression of Entitlement.
One more quote from The Mormon Curtain (I’m thinking former-LDS folks have even more issues about leaving the Church than “recovering Catholics” do):
The transcripts of General Conference talks are now available. This is the title of a talk from Saturday afternoon by Lynn Robbins who says:
Among those who do not sacrifice there are two extremes: one is the rich, gluttonous man who won’t and the other is the poor, destitute man who believes he can’t. But how can you ask someone who is starving to eat less? Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required?
One reason the Lord illustrates doctrines with the most extreme circumstances is to eliminate excuses. If the Lord expects even the poorest widow to pay her mite, where does that leave all others who find that it is not convenient or easy to sacrifice?
No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of “They can’t afford to” needs to be replaced with “They can’t afford not to.”
One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.
alindasue – I search “LDS New Orleans” to find one listed. Maybe the others don’t have independent addresses. I really can’t say as I didn’t look that far.
No one thinks anyone responds fast enough – proof positive the comments about the power crews working last week. There were a host of first responders and I doubt seriously that there was a contest over who was there first. Darlin’s comment is of the same calibre as many of her emotional based statements.
Back to the subject – Romney’s giving to any charity, regardless of which one, doesn’t equate to him demonstrating he has a handle on poverty in America, which a presidential candidate should.
Thanks again, though, for being our resident LDS information source. There is a lot of misinformation about the church and it’s nice to have someone to clarify.
Kardy is back to his old tactics of totally taking over the thread with off topic comments and straw man arguments. The rest of the usual socialists are spouting vitriol and making their own stupid comments. It is gonna be fun to listen to all the whining and crying after Nov when the socialist in chief is blown out of office and the US can start becoming the great nation it once was AGAIN!!!
There are many churches, and church sponsored organizations that helped in the Katrina disaster. Most of them do it quietly, without fanfare. As I’ve seen, church assistance is narrowly targeted to specific areas, like one of their own churches or members.
The media likes to focus on the big givers, i.e.federal the government. But when you get many small groups donating their time and money, it really makes a difference.
During a disaster, the media likes to focus on what is happening. If the majority of that includes the federal government, so be it. A disaster is no time to start comparing.
I don’t find the federal government to be a “giver”. We pay for the services rendered, although people usually forget come tax time.
The statement from Lynn Robbins of the LDS church is Biblically right on. Even the poorest in society can give something to the church – if not with money, with the volunteering of time or goods.
People who tithe regularly are blessed. Their material needs are taken care of (Notice I didn’t say ‘wants’). Read the third chapter of Malachi in the Bible.
“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.”
I’ve personally seen experienced promise, and regularly hear other church members say the same.
If the attitude towards tithing and giving is right, the action will naturally follow.
Kinda like a cover charge for Heaven.
Kard is always searching for a reason to bash religion. In the case of Mitt, he gets a Mormon and a republican.
With the exception of some fringe groups like westbourough baptist, churches do some great work for their community. Positive, charitable, welcoming.
If you would like to know more about Mitt’s character, go to snopes.com, type in “Romney helps finds Robert Gay’s daughter”. It speaks for itself.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/romney/search.asp
Thanks darlin, this shows true leadership and compassion.
ManuelMartini,
My search for “LDS New Orleans” turned up three of the meetinghouses, but the best resource for finding meetinghouses anywhere in the world is lds.com (click tools, then maps and enter the location into the search parameters.)
lds.org is one of my favorite sites. It’s a valuable resource for both church members and those curious about the church. I can spend days just going through the many many resources, publications, videos, and so forth that can be accessed on the site – including that General Conference address that you referenced. Most of it (except private sections like the ward phone directories) are available for viewing by the general public.
On the subject of tithing, I find the advantages of paying to be temporal as well as spiritual. I choose to pay tithing and find that when I put the Lord’s portion first, it helps me to focus and balance my budget easier. (I know. I doesn’t make sense – but it works.) Never-the-less, if a person truly has to choose between tithing or food, he will be provided food regardless once his need is known by the church.
You said, “A disaster is no time to start comparing.”
Agreed.
“Back to the subject – Romney’s giving to any charity, regardless of which one, doesn’t equate to him demonstrating he has a handle on poverty in America, which a presidential candidate should.”
Agreed there too – although at this point I’m not so sure that any of the current crop of candidates actually has a handle on the subject.
Darlin – That is an interesting story about Mitt Romney diverting resources to help his partner find his missing daughter, but given its source on snopes.com, a site that specializes in rumors, I’m not inclined to take it too seriously.
And… just out of curiosity, nwcolorist – You wrote, “I’ve personally seen experienced promise, and regularly hear other church members say the same.”
Are you LDS?
Oops, sorry, ManuelMartini. I just realized it was beerBoy, not you, who referenced that General Conference address.
By the way, beerBoy, here’s the entire April 2005 General Conference talk that was referenced in your post:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/tithing-a-commandment-even-for-the-destitute?lang=eng
beerBoy,
I posted the link before having read the talk fully. Now I’ve read the talk.
One of the things we are running into in this current election cycle is a lot of words that are quoted out of context – things like “I like to fire people…” or “I’m not concerned about the poor…”, for example.
Looking at the actual conference address in context, the last paragraph that was quoted by The Mormon Curtain was incomplete. The entire paragraph reads:
“One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing. The bishop can help them with their food and other basic needs until they become self-reliant.”
As you can see, the missing last sentence changes the entire tone of the quote.
During this election season, we are constantly subjected to jingo-isms, lies, half truths, and hyperbole. The important thing is that we base our opinions on what was actually said and not cherry picked excerpts pulled out of context.
Going back to the “I’m not concerned about the poor…” reference, someone in another thread actually quoted the entire paragraph in context. He went on to say that he thought Mitt Romney was “out of touch” because he placed the poverty rate at only 5% instead of the actual 16% – but that’s fine. It was, at least, an informed opinion.
The point is not what opinions people have of Mitt Romney, but that the opinions should be based on what the candidate actually said and not half-truth misquotes.
Sounds like alindasue is spinning for the church that makes you “pay” to belong.
Kind of like the religion of “peace” that makes you pay with infidels heads….
See, I can play the MM Larry game….
took14theteam said, “Sounds like alindasue is spinning for the church that makes you “pay” to belong.”
I am not “spinning” anything. I am merely relaying how things are.
No, you do not have to “pay to belong”. Tithing is a Biblical concept. It has its spiritual blessings, but no one is kicked out of the church for failure to pay.
I forgive your ignorance of the church as you seem to have a general ignorance of religions in general, as your comment using negative stereo-types about Muslims demonstrates.
I worked with a guy who complained that he couldn’t pay his bills, yet he gave 10% of his gross income to the church.
I call that an idiot.
As far as the religion of peace, just playing the game that kardnos (LH) et al play……
Peace, and have a nice evening.
alt
ManualMartini, what does “alt” mean?
took14theteam, I think I can safely say that I am not alone here when I state that I am tired of yet more debate threads being highjacked by the who-is-who-really nonsense. You may be “playing the game”, but it is not a fun game for the rest of us.
I’ll gladly discuss the issues with you, but I will be grateful if you guys take the “game” somewhere else. Thank you.