Letters to the Editor

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TEBOW: Guess he wasn’t touched by an angel

Letter by Robert Randle, Tacoma on Jan. 16, 2012 at 12:10 pm with 95 Comments »
January 16, 2012 12:11 pm

The Denver Broncos’ convincing and lopsided 45-10 loss to New England’s rambunctious “Brady Bunch” should convince the religiously zealous and cult-like sports fans of Tim Tebow that he does not have supernatural aid or sprinkling of some magical fairy dust to account for the team’s last-minute gridiron victories.

Rather, it is more like having a hot streak at the casino tables in Reno; sooner or later the wild and fun ride ends, and the universe is in balance once more.

What makes this loss even more of a statement against divine complicity is that the Patriots are the NFL’s 31st ranked defense, but somehow they managed to sack Tebow five times.

As a suggestion, perhaps all prayers should be confined to the locker room, worship center or family dwelling instead of on the field. And any “Touched by an Angel” duties should be left to real players like actors Della Reese and Roma Downey.

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Leave a comment Comments → 95
  1. pantomancer says:

    Was that really necessary?

  2. NFL was probably happy to have a positive image of one of its players for a change. Substantial increased in new viewers!

  3. pantomancer says:

    I’m not a Tebow fan, but the letter doesn’t conform to the simple rules of Please keep them civil.”

    IMHO.

  4. SandHills says:

    I suppose the letter writer would be right if Tebow also played defense – or if Tebow ever once stated the Broncos as a team were divinely blessed as the ignorance of the letter’s writer would suggest.

    All Tebow ever stated is what he personally professes – he has been blessed to have the athletic ability to perform at the NFL,, even agains the odds and naysayers. He has never claimed any divine credit for a Broncos victory, only prays that he is allowed to do his best and to be kept safe ( not uncalled for given the violence done to QBs with a target on his back).

    fFrom what I have seen and heard of of this young man throughout his career at Florida, and the intense pressure and scrutinly he has recieved proclaiming his faith as a staring NFL QB ( is there a more select group on the planet) – he is very humble in seeing how he has been blessed.

    I guess the letter writer has more troubling issues behind his letter than simply gloating – and also makes me wonder it must have been a slow day in the editors office to print his letter.

  5. hansgruber says:

    What a dumb letter.

    Team prayers before and after the games are pretty standard. No one was forced to join. I suppose you’ll want to ban all athletes who point to the heavens or give the sign of the cross or kneel? How about crying out on the field like Vernon Davis of the 49er’s after he caught the winning TD?

    Frankly, I prefer athletes thanking a Devine being along with coaches, family and friends vs the all mighty dollar for their abilities. It would be truly sad to see an athlete score a touchdown and then pull a few $100 bills out and kissing that instead of point to the heavens.

    I have to admit, I was surprised by all the hoopla about Tebow’s “Tebowing” when at any giving sporting event, you see these types of gestures often.

  6. Along with “the religiously zealous and cult-like sports fans of Tim Tebow” the letter should have included the hype-prone media for making a mountain out of a molehill.
    If one wants to point out nonsense, then the letter was to the point.

  7. I like Tim Tebow. I think he has a hell of a great future in the NFL and am looking forward to seeing what he does next season.

    But, and this may rankle a few of you who have posted above, every time the cameras went to him when he was “Tebowing” on one knee, I cringed.

    Many of you who have read my comments before know that sometimes I quote The Bible. (New Testament, Matt, Mark, Luke & John mostly). Well, this one requires it

    “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6).

    Tim doesn’t need to make a public show of his praying. We all know he is a man of faith. Just like those guys who catch a pass or make a TD and then make the sign of the cross. And they are probably not even Catholics.

    I pray all the time. But, you would never know it to look at me, because I don’t drop to one or both knees to do it. If it looks like anything, it probably just looks like I’m daydreaming or something. Tim can pray that way too, if he wanted too, but you have to consider that he is purposely making a show if it.

    If he is, then he has to expect letters and comments like the one above, songs by Jimmy Fallon and skits like Saturday Night Live’s.

    I like Tim Tebow, and I wish him the best. If he wants to pray out in the open, that is his choice. But, it’s not really what Jesus recommended, is it?

  8. SandHills says:

    Oh, I forgot to mention I am a huge Brady fan – in regards to his football ability. There is even a part of me that can only dream of his exploits off the field as well in regards to his love life. I never doubted as to the outcome of the game, ias it was sort of amazing that the Broncos started at 1-4 before Tebow began as a starter – and ended up in the playooffs (the Seahawks could have used a Tebow themselves). But anyone with football knowledge probably believed the Steelers would have ended their season last week. “Tebowmania” has been entertaining, to say the least – so i have to restate that the letter writer has some deeper issues behind his letter than simply gloating about a football game that most would have predicted as a forgone conclusion.

  9. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Why write this letter other than to get a rise out of people?

    TNT, why would you post this? It is a not so subtle insult to people of a religious bent.

    I am a Jets fan and only go to church for weddings But I appreciate a positive force in sports. Tebow does a lot more than pray on the field. This letter is immature and ignorant.

  10. ManuelMartini says:

    I remember when Lew Alcindor changed his name. Bobby Moore also.

    No controversy. Remember? No one refused to call Muhammad Ali by his chosen name.

    No one brought up their conversion to Islam. No one made a fuss about a man’s right to religious freedom in the United States.

    Oh, and Nixon didn’t resign. He served with honor and retired with dignity.

    I guess this stuff is only unfair when someone brings up the actions of a Christian.

  11. ManuelMartini says:

    I’m glad to see people celebrating freedom of thought, speech and the press.

  12. ManuelMartini says:

    Could you imagine Husain Abdullah, safety for the Minnesota Vikings, laying down a prayer rug after a sack of Tebow?

    He’d be shot by one of the fans carrying a Second Amendment solution.

    Especially with the name “Husain”.

  13. Ortingmom says:

    Tim Tebow does wonderful things for others and did not ask for all the attention. Robert Randle and the media like to put their own spin on things to try and make themselves look and feel better. Epic Fail

  14. ManuelMartini says:

    Bowing in prayer in front of 60,000 people and a TV audience isn’t asking for attention?

    Like I said, let a Muslim do the same and listen to the howls.

  15. bobcat1a says:

    All the “tebowing” hype, pro and con, reminds me of a Shakespeare play, “Much Ado about Nothing.”

  16. Had Tebow ever claimed any sort of assurance of game victory via his prayers, this letter might make a modicum of sense. As it is, it’s just a really sad reflection of an absurd and childish attitude.

    All the fuss made over Tebow shows just how screwy our culture is becoming. We pay entertainers and athelets absurd amounts of money, and casually turn a blind eye when they are adulterous or vulgar exhibitionists, but let one of them dare to praise God in public and…well just look at the stir.

    YOu all do realize, of course, that the real reason he is held in contempt goes back to the ad that ran during last year’s Super Bowl? Never mind that all he and his mom did was tell their story. They lit a fire under the pro-abortion crowd. This is just a reflectin of how much it pi$$ed them off.

    My prayer is that none of this will change Tim Tebow except to make him even more grateful for the gifts he’s been given.

  17. aislander says:

    The Christian commission is to spread the faith, therefore public expressions of that faith on the part of Tebow and others are not in the least gratuitous. Who doubts that Tebow expresses his faith in private, as well?

    Barely concealed hostility–if it’s concealed at all–toward Tim Tebow reveals much more about those displaying it than it sways others to feel it toward him…

  18. citizen65 says:

    The thing is, Mr. Tebow stood up for traditional American values. This does not guarentee football scores. Doesn’t mean those values should not be supported. I admire Mr. Tebow for his moralistic values. It’s a shame that the letter value doesn’t value the same.

  19. muckibr, I’m quite familiar with the passage of which you speak. It has little bearing here though. Tebow’s gesture is a gesture of praise, calling attention to himself, perhaps, but meant to point to God. And remember, the Bible also speaks of being unashamed of he Gospel!

    As for a Muslim player putting down a prayer rug, I wish it would happen and you’d see how quickly people would come to his defense. Christians are targeted now, and if you deny it, you are well…in denial!

    What’s funny about that is that many Christians are quite liberal, but many of them keep their Chrisian beliefs tucked under their hats.

  20. As for a Muslim player putting down a prayer rug, I wish it would happen and you’d see how quickly people would come to his defense. Christians are targeted now, and if you deny it, you are well…in denial!

    Really sozo? You state that Christians are the persecuted minority in America and then claim that anyone who disagrees with you are in denial! Wow!

    Examples of hate crimes against Arab Americans, Muslims, and Sikhs include:

    *

    In January 2009, Memphis store clerk Mohammed Al Hadi was murdered by an unknown assailant who calmly took aim and then fired, as if “he has some vendetta.” On the same day, at another grocery story nearby, another clerk of Middle Eastern descent was also murdered.

    “It’s terrible and I hate it because I knew the young man and he was nice,” said one community resident. But a community activist warned that the store owners will need “to have a lot of security because this is not the end. This is only the beginning.”45

    The two murders came on the heels of the killing on New Year’s Day 2009 of an African American during an angry confrontation with another Middle Eastern store clerk, who police charged with murder. Following the shooting, unknown perpetrators set fire to the store and an employee’s car, and activists called for a boycott of “all Arab-owned businesses in the neighborhood.”46

    This incident reveals a significant problem with likely underreporting of hate crimes by law enforcement authorities. As of the date of this report, Memphis Police had classified the deaths of the two Middle Eastern grocery clerks as robberies, not hate crimes.47 On March 6, 2009 George Williams was arrested and charged with first degree murder in perpetration of a robbery.48
    *

    In Berkeley, California in September 2004, eight female Muslim students at the University of California were accosted by three white males who sprayed water on them, pelted them with water bottles, screamed derogatory statements, and mocked the traditional hijabs worn by some Muslim women. One woman was called an “East Oakland nigger.” Two of the Muslim women reported that while this was the first time they have been physically confronted in Berkeley, verbal racial taunts are frequent.49
    *

    On a Lake Tahoe beach in July 2007, Vishal Wadhwa, 38, suffered fractures of several facial bones and an orbital fracture in one eye after being kicked and beaten by Joseph and Georgia Silva. Wadhwa approached the Silvas after they called him, his fiancée, and her cousin “terrorists,” “relatives of Osama Bin Laden,” and other slurs. The Silvas mistakenly believed the three victims “were Iraqi or Iranian or Middle Eastern” — in fact, they are all Indian American.

    In August 2008, the Silvas pleaded guilty to misdemeanors after a judge dismissed hate crime charges against Joseph Silva, finding that prosecutors had failed to prove that the attack was motivated by hate or prejudice or that sufficient force was used to make the crime a felony.50
    *

    In October 2008, Gagandeep Singh, a 10 year-old Sikh boy, was assaulted while walking home from school in Wayne, New Jersey by an unknown assailant who threw him to the ground and then cut his hair. To Sikhs, the cutting of hair is a particularly hateful crime, as they consider their hair a gift from God. “He came out of nowhere,” Singh said. “He just came up behind me, threw me on the floor, held me with his feet and cut my hair with the knife or scissor. Then I jumped a few fences and ran away because I was so scared.” Singh wonders of his assailant, “Why did you cut my hair? What do you want from Punjabis?”

    A few weeks later, a 67 year-old Sikh man was viciously beaten in the same community. “I said, ‘What do you want?’ And he hit me,” Ajit Singh Chima said. “A blow on the nose knocked me to the ground, [then] he kept punching and punching.”

    Authorities believe the same assailant committed both crimes and that the motive was hate.51
    http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/arab-americans.html

  21. ManuelMartini says:

    This is funny. How quickly the minions forget the catcalls and namecalling that followed Jabbar, Rashad, Ali and the others for their show of faith.

    Heck, I recall a Presidential candidate that said Muslims couldn’t be cabinet members.

    Of course, the Christians would come running to the rescue of a Muslim practicing his or her faith. How about Muslim prayer in school?

  22. there were 1,409 hate crimes motivated by religious bias. Of these anti-faith crimes, 65.4 percent were against Jews (or anti-Jewish), 13.2 percent were against Muslims (or anti-Islamic), 4.3 percent were anti-Catholic, 3.8 percent were anti-multiple faiths, 3.3 percent were anti-Protestant, 0.5 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. and 9.5% involved other religions, as reported by Religion Clause.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fbi-report-majority-of-anti-faith-hate-crimes-are-anti-jewish/

  23. ManuelMartini says:

    “What’s funny about that is that many Christians are quite liberal, but many of them keep their Chrisian beliefs tucked under their hats.”

    Maybe they celebrate their faith without making a spectacle of it. There is nothing wrong with “going to your prayer closet”.

  24. sozo, please reread my comment. I did NOT mention anything about Muslims or prayer rugs. Okay?

  25. ManuelMartini says:

    ““It was kind of surreal,” Abdullah said. “(We) got to snap a couple pictures, they cleared out a room, and we got to pray inside the White House, which is awesome.”

    Note that there weren’t 60,000 spectators. Just a couple of men celebrating their faith in private.

    Speaking of “anti-religious”……

  26. 51% of America are Protestants who suffered 3.3 % of the hate crimes
    24% of America are Catholic who suffered 4.3% of faith based hate crimes
    0.6% of America are Muslims who suffered 13.2% of hate crimes
    1.7% of America are Jews who suffered 65.4% of faith based crimes.

    http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

    Now just who is in denial sozo?

  27. And who can forget all the bigoted b.s. surrounding Keith Ellison’s swearing in ceremony…

  28. Of course, those of us who believe in God and Jesus, know for certain that God made us in hHis own image, right? Right!

    And therefore it follows that if God did NOT have a sense of humor, neither would we, But we do! And I’m sure Tim Tebow does as well.

    And I’m sure if he is half the good man that I think Tim Tebow is, he can laugh at this video and laugh at himself as well.

    Please take this in the spirit of good fun. Jimmy Fallon is a very very creative entertainer, and he’s really done a fine job with this tribute to Tim Tebow.

    Enjoy the video!

    http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2012/01/14/jimmy_fallon_channels_tim_tebow_david

  29. aislander says:

    beerBoy writes: “…there were 1,409 hate crimes motivated by religious bias…”

    One such crime is too many, but for a nation of over 300 million, that is a rather paltry figure. Sounds like we get along rather well regarding religion–better anyway than the Middle East where millions of believers have made it the policy of their theocratic regimes to drive into the sea the tiny population of a tiny nation…

  30. If you liked the Jimmy Fallon song video, then you might like this skit from Saturday Night Live as well. (It takes a while to load, official NBC site you know, and there is a short commercial, but be patient.)

    Again, I share these with you because I really believe that Tim Tebow has most likely seen these, and I am sure he probably thought they were entertaining too.

    Look, if he can’t laugh at himself and we can’t laugh at ourselves, every once in a while, then what’s the point of living. Live is too serious to be taken too seriously!

    Enjoy!

    http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tebow/1374394

  31. frankiethomas says:

    First off, I am a Patriots fan. Secondly, I am not particularly religious. But this letter is ridiculous. Tebow for a rookie had a great season. And four of the eight teams playing last weekend had the four worst defenses in the NFL, go figure. . .

  32. DARN TYPOS!

    LIFE is too serious, to be taken too seriously (all the time)!

    Words to live by.

  33. aislander says:

    sozo is right, beerBoy. For the media-benighted general public, the religion of Political Correctness has far more control of behavior( public behavior, anyway)than just about any other creed.

    Tebow’s complete lack of adherence to the PC dogma is what I like most about him, aside from his obvious decency. Well, that and his ability to crash through a defense…

  34. concernedtacoma7 says:

    If the author is the same blogger found with a simple google search, it is odd that he blasts Tebow for showing his faith on the field while he posts his all over the internet.

  35. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    The tribune must have only printed this to create churn among us.

    Winning!!!!!

  36. Tebow’s heroics this season reminded me a bit of Fran Tarkenton – a less that stellar QB technically who still managed to win a lot of games – unfortunately for Tebow fans, if the comparison is apt, Tarkenton lost all three Super Bowls he was in.

  37. aislander – give me a break. “Tebowing”, far from being persecuted for being non-pc, was the media cause celebre.

  38. aislander says:

    I wasn’t addressing that, beerBoy; rather sozo’s contention that there would be little or no blow-back if a Muslim whipped out a prayer rug after a TD. I’ll even bet the NFL would backpedal on its post T.O. policy banning players’ use of props for celebrations!

  39. aislander says:

    Don’t tell me, beerBoy, that Tebow received universal approbation for his gestures. He generated a lot of animosity, too.

    P.C. would cause a lot of people who would privately be uncomfortable with the prayer-rug thing to bite their tongues…

  40. sandblower says:

    Great letter. The negatives here are stunningly inept

  41. sozo, I have been thinking of your comment on 1/16 @ 2:40 PM, and I have a couple responses for you.

    1. As I posted on 1/16 @ 2:55 PM, I did not mention anything about Muslims or prayer rugs in my 1/16 @ 1:16 PM comment. You must have me confused with someone else.

    2. Now getting to your comment on 1/16 @ 2:40 PM: “muckibr, I’m quite familiar with the passage of which you speak. It has little bearing here though. Tebow’s gesture is a gesture of praise, calling attention to himself, perhaps, but meant to point to God. And remember, the Bible also speaks of being unashamed of he Gospel!”

    Now, since you did not specify, I assume you refer to ““For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” —Romans 1:16  (Written by Paul, who was not one of The Twelve, and did not walk with Jesus, but believeth just the same.)

    Let me ask you this: Which “Gospel” do you think Paul was talking about in his letter to the Christians of Rome?

    Of course he was referring to the actual words of Jesus as the “gospel of Christ”, as recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark & John. (Many theologians believe the Gospel of Luke was written by Paul’s companion Luke the Evangelist, so it’s not likely Paul was referring to that Gospel quite yet, at the time he wrote to the Romans, although he might have.)

    So, Paul wrote to the Roman Christians, telling them he was unashamed of the Gospel, which contains the written word of Jesus (gospel of Christ), and among those written words in Matthew is the one I quoted from Matthew 6:5-6. But even though Paul essentially says the Gospel(s), or words of Jesus, have great “bearing,” you say it “has little bearing here.”

    Who am I to believe? You, sozo, or Saint Paul the Apostle? (Don’t answer that. It’s just rhetorical.)

    That’s a problem I have with a lot of people who claim to be Christians. They seem to believe they can select passages out of The Bible, like items off a restaurant menu, to use to make their case and then just ignore others that don’t fit their current argument. That is why I limit myself almost exclusively to just the actual words of Jesus for my personal guidance, and not much else in The Bible. I too am unashamed of the “gospel of Christ” as in “the words of Jesus.”

    And Jesus said, “do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them.”

    Do you, sozo, suppose that if Jesus were on Earth today, that he would amend that statement he made by adding the words: “but on NFL football fields, in front of thousands of people, and network cameras broadcasting to millions of people, it’s okay to make a display of your praying, because that’s different.” Do you think Jesus would make that change to The Gospel?

    I don’t think so.

    How is making a display of praying before, during and after games when you know it’s likely to be seen by thousands and televised to millions, any different than praying “while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see” you?

    Just please answer that last question for me, okay!

  42. For the slower learners here…

    The issue with Tim Tebow is not a matter of PC, or Political Correctness.

    It is a matter of CC, or Christian Correctness.

    Read Matthew 6:5-6.

  43. ManuelMartini says:

    “If the author is the same blogger found with a simple google search, it is odd that he blasts Tebow for showing his faith on the field while he posts his all over the internet.”

    And?

    Maybe he thinks that Tebow is a hypocrite and wants to discuss the subject. I think that is what these forums are all about. I don’t notice the Christian supporters ignoring the thread.

  44. ManuelMartini says:

    “P.C. would cause a lot of people who would privately be uncomfortable with the prayer-rug thing to bite their tongues…”

    We notice all the tongue biting that goes on in this website. No one ever says anything negative about the Muslim faith.

    NewsFlash! Moon is actually green cheese!

  45. pantomancer says:

    Interesting dialogue.

    I am rather intrigued by the direction the discussion has trended and how it swerved there.

  46. ManuelMartini says:

    I see no swerve. The thread is about Tebow, religion, hypocrisy of the religious – all areas that are covered in the letter.

    Same song, different title.

  47. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The topic is a man’s right to express his faith and the positive example this man sets in his private life.

    If he was praising Allah or fighting dogs he would have been invited to the WH. Instead, he drives the anti-religion left crazy.

    What is wrong for the religious Christians in this country having a positive figure in the public arena?

  48. Should Christians pray in public?

    YES
    Timothy 2:8 “Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath … I desire therefore that the men pray in every place,”

    NO
    Mathew 6:6 “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

  49. Should the good works of Christians be seen?

    YES
    Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works.”

    NO
    Matthew 6:1-4 “Take care not to do your good works before men, to be seen by them; or you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”

  50. I’ve had some of my comments deleted for less than this letter. Who approved this letter for publication???

  51. cirrus, “Should Christians pray in public?”

    Good question! Very good question!!!

    Not such a good selection from The Bible as regards your “YES” alternative though.

    Here’s one reason why, and I have stated this previously on these web pages, I almost exclusively follow the words of Jesus and only Jesus for my guidance. In your example, from 1 Timothy 2:8, you have selected a quote from Paul the Apostle, not the words of Jesus himself. Ask yourself: Whose words would take precedence in a dispute, Paul’s or Jesus’? Obviously Jesus’ words trump anything and everything that Paul might say.

    So, if there were a dispute between the words of Paul and the words of Jesus, then you must go by the words of Jesus. But, as you will see, there is not even a dispute here between Jesus’ and Paul’s words on prayer.

    As regards the specific quote from 1 Timothy 2:8, does it specifically state that one should pray openly in public places for all to see? I’ve checked a few versions of The Bible, and none of them specify to pray openly in public, or to be noticed by others as you are praying, or to pray and draw attention to yourself. None.

    One can pray in “all places” without making a public spectacle of doing so. As I myself have explained in these web pages, one can pray in such a way that no one would ever suspect the person is praying. They might think the person is daydreaming, but would never know he is praying. You can pray “in every place” as Paul suggests, but you can still follow the direction of Jesus to pray in secret from others, unseen, so as not to draw attention to yourself.

    What about “lifting up holy hands”? Does this mean lifting up your actual arms and hands in the air as you pray? No. Even in church, when you pray, most Christians never do that. The most Christians usually do is clasp their hands together in front of them, but they don’t actually lift them up from there, do they? It is a figure of speech, that you can do mentally, and feel spiritually, but is not necessary to do physically.

    Does that make sense?

  52. cirrus, “Should the good works of Christians be seen?”

    Again, a good question. It doesn’t deal directly with praying in public, but it’s a good question, and it is kinda along the same lines.

    Matthew 6:1-4 kind of speaks for itself, doesn’t it?

    “1 Take care! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired, for then you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. 2 When you give a gift to a beggar, don’t shout about it as the hypocrites do — blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I tell you in all earnestness, they have received all the reward they will ever get. 3 But when you do a kindness to someone, do it secretly — don’t tell your left hand what your right hand is doing. 4 And your Father who knows all secrets will reward you.”

    So that answer from Jesus is clearly, “NO” you should not do your good Christian works in order to be seen by others as a good person. Even when others don’t see, God does, and He will reward you. If you do those good works so that you will be seen doing them, then don’t expect any reward or credit from God for doing them, because you already got your reward baby!

    What about Matthew 5:16 then?

    “16 Don’t hide your light! Let it shine for all; let your good deeds glow for all to see, so they will praise your heavenly Father.”

    Now, let me ask you this: In verse 16 is there anything that says YOU should “take credit” for your good deeds, or does it just say let your good deeds be seen? To answer that question, answer this one: Who does it say to allow to take credit for your good deeds? Answer: “your heavenly Father.” So, you let God take the credit for your good deeds, when you shine your light, without taking the credit for yourself, because…

    if you can do that, then YOU will receive your reward from your heavenly Father in Heaven.

    How do you do that? How about contributing some money to The Salvation Army Red Kettle, but don’t tell anyone you did. Everyone knows The Salvation Army is a Christian charity organization and they do good works in the name of God. You and God will know you contributed, but nobody else needs to know, do they?

    So, the answer is still “NO.” As a Christian, you try never take credit for your good works or good deeds, and you try never to be seen doing them. Just as you should try never to be seen praying as Jesus instructed, even though you may pray all the time and in every place.

    And you know what! If you do good deeds in secret, and if you pray in secret, you will GLOW with the spirit of the lord, and some people will see that glow, though they may not know what it is or why its there, they will still see it in you without you having to make a spectacle of yourself.

    Make sense?

  53. harleyrider1 says:

    Gone are the days when professional football players just did what they were paid to and rules about how they “acted” during the game were paramount. Now, most of the players have to do a little dance ranging from simulated sex to overtly thanking a deity for receiving the ball.

    Bogus. Children and young adults are very impressionable. They watch these acts, wild dances, grabbing themselves between the legs, etc – and we, as fans, have just come to accept it.

    Our father’s generation and the one before it, expected decorum and adherence to how people acted in public. We fault the gang-bangers for pants being so low, their butts show and grabbing their crotches. It’s probably the last indignant action we can agree on. Yet, their relatives wants laws to protect that vision.

    I’d like to see America play football without the “I am the star” physical statements, the jumping into the fans, the simulated sex for every touchdown – and yes, even the kneeled prayer, rug or no rug. If someone wants to pray, can’t they just do it within themselves?

  54. sozo makes an unsupported assertion which, when challenged, is “supported” by aislander restating the same unsupported assertion, which is then re”supported” by ct7 chiming in.

    Your assertion is based in nothing – I, in countering it, put forward evidence of the much higher bias against Muslims and Jews in the country.

    harleyrider has it right. ALL of the displays, including the silly dances in the endzone and the Tebow genuflection, have nothing to do with the game and really should be disallowed.

  55. ManuelMartini says:

    “If he was praising Allah or fighting dogs he would have been invited to the WH. Instead, he drives the anti-religion left crazy.
    What is wrong for the religious Christians in this country having a positive figure in the public arena?”

    There we go. The martyrism that we’ve come to know from Christianity, not to mention that the statement is false.

    Let’s say, for the sake of argument that (1)Obama is a Muslim, which he’s not and (2) that he did, indeed invite players to the White House strictly BECAUSE they are Muslim. Would that not be religious freedom?

    I stand with Harley on this one. I remember football when a tackle was expected, not celebrated and you acted like you’d been there before if you scored a touchdown.

  56. ManuelMartini says:

    muckibr – I think if you’d follow the history of “raising hands”, it became part of the evangelical, non-denominational movement, which grew up on television.

    Can you imagine how dull a TV church service would be if people prayed solemnly with their hands folded or kneeling in prayer? It doesn’t have quite the viewing power as the Holy Rollers, does it?

  57. muckibr, I do not think that what Tim Tebow does in acknowledging God publicly–and act of praise, is comparable to the kind of public display of piety Jesus was referring to. Apples and oranges IMO.

    And please, everyone, note that Tebow’s “prayer” is a brief missile of praise to God, not some kind of exaggerated act of piety. If the media had ignored it, most people wouldn’t have given it a second thought

    Clarification… BTW I wasn’t attributing the prayer rug remark to you. Sorry if it read that way.

    bBoy, when I spoke of the prayer rug, I was in no way suggesting that there have been no hate crimes against Muslims. Another apples and oranges moment. I was referring to the media hooplah, and yes, all of the comedians leaping to ridicule Tebow. Do you seriously think that the same level of ridicule and attention would be given to a Muslim who offered praise to Allah?

    bBoy, you are in denial if you don’t acknowledge a generalized dislike of Christians among many folks today. There are at least three levels of persecution, and the first of these is social. From TV drama to movies to comedy, Christians are depicted as vile, mean and hypocritical. I always find that interesting given that Martin Luther King’s entire life was rooted in Christian teachings.

  58. “muckibr – I think if you’d follow the history of “raising hands”, it became part of the evangelical, non-denominational movement, which grew up on television.”

    Oh, I know there are some churches, but very few , where church services are very animated and the throwing up of the hands high in the air is part of the ceremony. But as I said, “most Christians never do that.” Keyword, “most”.

    Just as there are some Christian churches where they handle and even kiss poisonous snakes. Again, very rare, and most Christians don’t do that either.

  59. “acknowledge a generalized dislike of Christians among many folks today. There are at least three levels of persecution, and the first of these is social. From TV drama to movies to comedy, Christians are depicted as vile, mean and hypocritical”

    Christianity has ALWAYS been a religion of persecution in degrees since the days of Jesus, just as have almost all religions in one way or the other.

    But to say there is a “generalized dislike of Christians” is not quite accurate. Isn’t there really a generalized dislike of Christian hypocrites. That is Christians who claim they believe in Jesus and the gospel of Christ, but then selectively ignore the parts that don’t fit their current situation?

    For instance, Jesus specifically said to pray in “secret.” It’s not much of a “secret” if you’re doing it in front of thousands and broadcast to millions.

    People don’t have a problem with Tim Tebow being a Christian. It’s not a generalized dislike of all Christians. They don’t even have a specific dislike for Tim Tebow himself. They just have a specific problem with Tim Tebow being an “In your face” hypocritical Christian.

    Each time Tim Tebow genuflects and prays in front of an audience, he gets his reward from people. Those instances, according to Jesus, will not earn him any reward from God. Tim should know that.

  60. Oh, and whoever wrote, “he drives the anti-religion left crazy.”

    That is probably one of the most stupidly bigoted things written on this topic so far.

    There is probably an equal percentage of liberals who are Christians in this country as there are conservatives. Conservatives are not the only Christians in America. Conservatives don’t have a lock on Christianity. Get real!

  61. sozo, “muckibr, I do not think that what Tim Tebow does in acknowledging God publicly”

    I should have also added…

    Between what you think sozo, and what Saint Paul has written and what Jesus has taught, my order of preference is: Jesus first, then Paul, because, between the two of them, you are still wrong.

  62. To lighten up the tone of this discussion a bit, I recalled seeing someone make the comment…

    “What is wrong for the religious Christians in this country having a positive figure in the public arena?”

    Which really struck me as kind of an odd comment to make, regarding Christian in an Arena.

    Then I looked up their season schedule and noted that in Week 8, Tim Tebow and his team LOST to the Detroit LIONS by 45 to 10!

    Coincidentally, the Broncos lost the Division Playoff Game to the Patriots, by 45 to 10.

    Do you think the Christian vs. Lions game was some kind of omen or maybe symbolism?

    (Okay, it’s not that funny, but it is kind of a curious coincidence.)

  63. menopaws says:

    Nobody in this crowd has a sense of humor………the letter is “tongue in cheek” humor…….It’s football and no one denies Mr. Tebow his faith—but, let’s not be reality challenged here……..It’s a game—period. Not war, or world hunger or anyone of a dozen serious issues…….the writer was playing with you and it’s a FUNNY letter………I bet the Lord gets impatient with how dense all of you are!!!!!!

  64. ManuelMartini says:

    ” Do you seriously think that the same level of ridicule and attention would be given to a Muslim who offered praise to Allah?”

    No, it would be more, because of the bigotry concerning Islam.

    I cite, again, the attacks on Muslim athletes who simply changed their name, much less performing a prayer ritual during the game.

    Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar were both chided for moving during the national anthem, but non-Muslim athletes are “staying loose right before the game”.

  65. menopaws… Nobody in this crowd has a sense of humor………

    I BEG TO DIFFER menopaws!

    Please take a look at MY comments from:

    1/16 @ 3:19 PM
    1/16 @ 3:32 PM
    1/16 @ 3:39 PM
    1/17 @ 9:10 AM

  66. BTW, I want to amend what I originally wrote in my first comment on this topic, which was:

    “I like Tim Tebow, and I wish him the best. If he wants to pray out in the open, that is his choice. But, it’s not really what Jesus recommended, is it?”

    I still like Tim Tebow. He can still pray out in the open in front of the fans and cameras if he wants to. This is America and he’s free to do what he wants in that regard.

    BUT, Jesus did not just “recommend” people not pray that way. Jesus TAUGHT us to pray in secret, not out in public.

  67. BlaineCGarver says:

    Muck, I disagree….the public part would be the command to witness, would it not? A very central idea in the Christian faith.

  68. Blaine, I’m not sure what you mean by “the command to witness” unless you can provide a reference for it from The Bible.

    Various Christian denominations use the word “witness” in their own ways, to mean different things. We might still disagree, or we might actually agree, but I need something else to go on as a reference for what you mean by “to witness.”

    Fair enough?

  69. ManuelMartini says:

    “Command to witness”

    Having spent a little time in an Assemblies of God Church, I would say that witnessing was the dialog between two people for the purpose of sharing the religious experience.

    If it was intended to be a public event, why don’t more Christians put on a sandwich board while walking in the mall or on Ruston Way?

    Now if Tebow was exercising “to bear witness to; testify to; give or afford evidence of”, does God only take part in his successes and not when he is sacked for a 10 yard loss? I’ve never seen him “praise the Lord” after a sack, or just a plain old complete 5 yard pass.

  70. To be FAIR to the Tim Tebow fans, of which I am one too – even though some of you might not think so, here is a link you might enjoy! (I did.)

    80s Singer John Parr Rewrites Hit ‘St. Elmo’s Fire’ Theme Song For Tim Tebow

    “I was inspired by Tim Tebow so I wanted to modify the lyrics… in his honor of the way that he lives his life as being a great example,” he says. (After clicking on the elink below, scroll down to see two video/songs you can play.)

    http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2012/01/13/80s_singer_john_parr_rewrites_hit_st_e

  71. ManuelMartini says:

    ugh!

    I didn’t like that song the first time around.

  72. I think Tebow never credited his success to his prayers – but his minister did.

  73. sozo 1/16 @ 2:32 PM “YOu all do realize, of course, that the real reason he is held in contempt goes back to the ad that ran during last year’s Super Bowl?”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/07/tim-tebow-super-bowl-ad-v_n_436383.html

  74. If you cannot dinstinguish between hate crimes and media-induced hysteria, it’s not my problem, bBoy.

    I’ll say it again, if attention hadn’t been drawn to it by commentators, it would have gone unnoticed. Or barely noticed.

  75. aislander says:

    I don’t believe “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations” would be possible without public demonstrations of faith.

    And those ARE the words of Jesus. It’s called The Great Commission. Matthew 28:16-20

  76. sozo, I watched the Mom & Tim Tebow ad a couple times, and I didn’t see any big deal about it. It was really kind of tame for that matter. The message was so subtle that I almost missed it.

    I read many of the very many comments at that bottom of same linked webpage, and, for the most part, people didn’t seem to have any major problem with the ad.

    I honestly did not remember any huge controversy caused by the ad when it originally played during the SuperBowl. Fact is, I didn’t remember the commercial at all, even as I watched the video now. There were ads that were a lot more entertaining, and that’s generally what we look for in SuperBowl ads anyway. Ribbit! WASSUP!

    So, whats the big deal. What does that ad have to do with the controversy over Tebowing today?

    I really don’t think people have a problem with Tim’s “Tebowing” because of anything in that commercial. I really think that if anyone has a problem with it, then they have a problem with Tebowing simply because it is IN YOUR FACE proselytizing during an event that really has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

    Like I have said before. Tebow can keep doing it, but if he really understood what Jesus was saying in Matthew 6:5-6 then he would realize that he really should not be Tebowing in public view.

  77. aislander says:

    sozo: Do you believe it is reasonable that Tebow is grateful that his mother didn’t follow the doctors’ recommendation that he be aborted and that he make a PSA expressing that gratitude?

    Who could be petty enough to resent that expression?

  78. aislander says:

    So…what, sozo, do you think Jesus was saying in Matthew 28:16-20?

  79. sozo – your problem is that you are locked into a closed loop – you assert that Christians are the most persecuted group in America and, faced with evidence that clearly demonstrates that Jews, followed by Muslims, are far more persecuted than Christians (who as the largest religious group in America have to endure a very minimal amount of physicalizations of persecution via hate crimes).

    I know the “hated minority” schtick is very appealing because, when someone complains that they feel that self-righteousness in the name of the Lord is obnoxious, the jerks who use religion as a cover for their bad behavior can claim that they are being persecuted.

    Snide intentions are not disguised by religious words, that is why statements like “God bless you” or “I will pray for you” are so vile when they are delivered with venom.

    Just because someone claims to be a true believer doesn’t mean that you need to stand up for them when they disgrace your faith with self-righteous maliciousness.

    Yes….this is far afield from Tebow – the media phenom made famous even to non-football fans more for the media hype around “Tebowing” than his last quarter “heroics”.

    Personally – I find “Tebowing” to be just another obnoxious bit of showboating that the media glorified. Just as the media made a pact not to show idiots who would interrupt play by running on the field – they should not show ANY showboating, including over-the-top religious expressions.

  80. ManuelMartini says:

    “sozo: Do you believe it is reasonable that Tebow is grateful that his mother didn’t follow the doctors’ recommendation that he be aborted and that he make a PSA expressing that gratitude?
    Who could be petty enough to resent that expression?”

    No resentment at all. I question the reality of the situation and that it could be nothing more than a shill for the “right to life” organizations.

    I wonder if, using the Tebow theory, Charles Manson’s mother should make a PSA saying she should have aborted?

  81. Whatever anyone wants to say about Tebow… he is a tough young man! Reports this morning say he played much of the game against the Patriots in a good deal of pain, due to torn cartilage from his rib cage. He told his coaches NOT to take him out of the game. You gotta give Tim credit for that. He is a team player!

  82. aislander says:

    Any proof–at all–that there is reason to “question” the Tebow family’s testimony of the events surrounding Tim’s birth?

  83. First things first. I do not “assert that Christians are the most persecuted group in America.” I simply note that Christians are persecuted, socially. They are persecuted in much more serious ways elsewhere too, but in the US it’s mostly ridicule.

    Regarding this statement, “Just because someone claims to be a true believer doesn’t mean that you need to stand up for them when they disgrace your faith with self-righteous maliciousness.” You will not find me standing up for a misguided, self-righteous Christian. What has this to do with Tim Tebow?

    Aislander, as for The Great Commission, I believe that we are to point to Christ whenever possible…as the giver, redeemer and provider of life. In one sense, Tebow’s gesture is the perfect example of obeying that mandate.

    And remember HE did not make a show of it. The media did.

  84. “And remember HE did not make a show of it. The media did.”

    That’s you opinion sozo, and you are entitled to it, but…

    if he didn’t DO IT, then they couldn’t SHOW it, so HE DID IT. FACT!

  85. And remember HE did not make a show of it.

    Yah sure, ya betcha! Next time I’m in front of a sold-out crowd with cameras pointed at me and I make a very big gesture – I will make sure to blame the media.

  86. “And remember HE did not make a show of it.”

    beerBoy, you know what flashed in my mind the very first time I read that statement? The scene in the Disney comedy movie Rocket Man where these two astronauts have their space suits connected to each other by a kind of umbilical hose, and one of the guys passes gas, but quickly says, “It wasn’t me!”

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1600734/rocket_man_farting_in_space/

  87. aislander says:

    I have seen other athletes make gestures of gratitude to their God after big plays or at the ends of games, and no one has said a word. sozo is right: it’s a media creation.

    Oh, and sozo, thanks for not busting me on my ungrammatical sentence above. I’m sure that Tebow’s mother’s doctors did not recommend that the family do a PSA…

  88. “I have seen other athletes make gestures of gratitude to their God after big plays or at the ends of games, and no one has said a word.”

    aislander, you are so full of crap!

    beerBoy –
    JAN. 18, 2012 AT 6:00 AM  

    Personally – I find “Tebowing” to be just another obnoxious bit of showboating that the media glorified. Just as the media made a pact not to show idiots who would interrupt play by running on the field – they should not show ANY showboating, including over-the-top religious expressions.

    muckibr –
    JAN. 16, 2012 AT 1:16 PM  

    Tim doesn’t need to make a public show of his praying. We all know he is a man of faith. Just like those guys who catch a pass or make a TD and then make the sign of the cross. And they are probably not even Catholics.

    And there have been more.

    aislander, maybe you should do more READING and less commenting before you continually display you ignorance of the facts.

  89. Missed the grammar flub, aislander. It was clear what you meant. For the record, I see nothing unreasonable about Tim Tebow’s actions, period. This is all a bunch of nonsense.

  90. aislander says:

    sozo: I have no idea what it is spewing about! I simply agreed with your statement, “And remember HE did not make a show of it. The media did.”

    …which, by the way, I read.

    Since other athletes have made–and continue to make–similar gestures, but don’t draw the media attention REGARDING the gestures that Tebow does, I will reiterate that I agree with you: the media are hyping this.

  91. aislander, you do know exactly what I was commenting about, because I quoted YOUR exact words at the top of my comment.

    I resent how you describe me as “spewing about” which is quite derogatory, and uncalled for. I don’t spew, and you know that too.

    But, I don’t want to get personal with you, so I am putting you back on the TBI list permanently.

    God Bless you aislander, but I am through with you.

  92. aislander says:

    I think He just did…

  93. aislander says:

    …and I thought we were discussing the media–unless people who post on this forum are having delusions of grandeur…

  94. Are you SURE you want God to bless aislander, muckibr? Tell the truth now.

  95. Yes sozo, I am sure. If I didn’t feel that way then I would be letting people get under my skin, and I don’t do that. Remember that Jesus taught us, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” I don’t hold grudges, and I don’t hate people. I do get angry and even infuriated with people sometimes, mostly because they are just being too pig-headed to open their minds and consider any other opinions but their own. But, that’s a temporary situation, that passes quickly. When it’s clear to me that some people are beyond reaching with reason, then I am done with them. I ask God to Bless them and pray that somehow, some way, He will help them to open their minds so that at some point they may be able to learn again.

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