Letters to the Editor

Your views in 200 words or less

VOTING: The big lie about voter fraud

Letter by Michael L. Bowler, Buckley on Jan. 10, 2012 at 10:10 am with 199 Comments »
January 10, 2012 10:55 am

In 1980, Republican activist Paul Weyrith gave a speech to a group of conservatives in which he said, “I don’t want everybody to vote” and “Our leverage in the elections goes up as the voting populace goes down.”

Republicans have taken his words to heart, and with funding from the right-wing billionaire Koch brothers and their front group, ALEC, Republican- controlled legislatures across the nation have passed or are trying to enact voter-suppression laws.

Let’s be clear: Voter fraud is “The Big Lie” dreamed up by those who know full well that their ideas and policies are not popular with a majority of Americans. George W. Bush discovered this was a Big Lie when he fanned U.S. attorneys out across the U.S., spent years and millions of our tax dollars to bring a grand total of 95 people to trial for federal election fraud.

Statistically, you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than committing voter fraud.

These laws target the elderly, the young, students, minorities and the poor – groups that are more likely not to have government-issued ID and more likely to vote Democratic.

It is noteworthy that none of these laws are being pushed by Democratic-controlled state legislatures. This is because Democrats are confident that their ideas for good public policies will win wide support among a majority of Americans.

Voter-suppression laws are another loaded gun pointed directly at the beating heart of democracy and freedom.

Leave a comment Comments → 199
  1. Misunderestimated says:

    So you mean like the Black Panthers keeping white voters away from the polls in Philadelphia?
    Then the Justice Dept refusing to investigage?
    Or the thousands in Seattle who gave their home address as the democratic party headquarters?
    Or the 600 votes in the Seattle district that had only 275 registered voters?
    I guess your right, nothing to see here…

  2. concernedtacoma7 says:

    What racist thinks minorities cannot get a govt ID?

    Many states offer them for free, which I think is a good way to end the debate.

  3. LOL, this letter is one big lie. There is NOTHING unreasonable about requiring photo identification in order to evidence you are who you say you are and that you are a registered voter. Look at ACORN, and the others referenced above.

    Having ignorant people paid to vote or just voting for whomever they think is going to give the “free sh$#” is a sin. I don’t want uneducated masses sitting on welfare controlling who runs our nation. Do us all a favor; if you can’t educate yourself regarding the candidates and have a reason for your opinion please don’t vote. I have a very educated intelligent friend who is a liberal and I love talking to him about politics. He is just as passionate as I am, and we disagree on most everything. But he supports welfare reform and other things that any responsible American supports.

    Thank you for your amusing letter. You and Fred Lamotte…..

  4. BlaineCGarver says:

    Seattle and Chicago are prime examples. Seattle keeps finding votes until their Girl wins….It’s a fact that Nixon beat JFK, and did not persue it for the good of the country (something a ‘crat would not understand)

  5. Wow, four more……..

  6. ManuelMartini says:

    It’s unbelievable how many people buy into the “voter fraud” rumors, but then deny the obvious fraud in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004.

  7. ManuelMartini says:

    http://factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/

    Thank you for your amusing comment

  8. Fibonacci says:

    Oh Blainie
    You don’t have to go back to Nixon and Kennedy–just back to bush and Gore. And please, give up the vote recount thing on Rossi and our “girl” as you put it. Rossi lost!!!!!!!! Get over it. There were REPUBLIKANS

  9. Fibonacci says:

    involved in that recount.

  10. dallasow says:

    Good letter Michael. I think you struck a nerve. Based on some of the rants posted, it’s evident some people can’t handle the truth.

  11. Nixon did not beat Kennedy in either the popular or electoral vote. Although the rumors of fraud in Chicago are probably true.

    But, Al Gore did beat George Bush in the popular vote, though Bush won the electoral vote count thanks to some obvious fraud that went on in the state of Florida, and the vote of a conservative-leaning Supreme Court which handed down a most unusual “non-precedent setting” legal decision.

    http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

  12. Not sure why the link I post goes to the Obama/McCain election. Just click on the year 2000 on the left to see the Bush/Gore results I referenced.

  13. Soundlife says:

    Why yes voter fraud is quite rampant; here is a link to just a few of Acorn’s faubles where they were convicted (including washington state)

    http://rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html

    You can bury your head in the sand if you wish; the rest of us live and learn; then seek to bring real change

  14. truthbusterguy says:

    What short memories we have. Don’t you remember how the illeagals were working for Patty Murry. Don’t you think they also voted? Give me a break!!! Don’t have any ID, give me a break.

    http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/illegal-immigrants-openly-working-for-patty-murray

  15. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The left just did a good job of deflecting.

    ‘Bush was elected on what I perceive was a fraud, so it ok now.’???

    Why is asking for an ID preventing minorities from voting? How is assuming they cannot get IDs not racist?

  16. keepinitreal says:

    If voter fraud is a big lie, why are democrats soooo against helping prevent it?

    The answer is self evident.

  17. “yes voter fraud is quite rampant; here is a link to just a few of Acorn’s faubles where they were convicted”

    Ahh, yes. Another one who doesn’t understand:

    1. The difference between voter registration fraud and actual vote fraud.

    2. In every case listed, the existing system worked.

  18. “Don’t you remember how the illeagals were working for Patty Murry. Don’t you think they also voted?”

    Got any evidence that they DID vote? I didn’t think so.

  19. Soundlife says:

    Voter fraud is essential to democrats winning elections; always has been, always will be as they simply can not win the battle of ideas.
    Dim dems will always stand in the way of voter id, less they never win another election…

  20. Voter fraud is essential to Reps winning elections. They don’t do it one ID at a time, they do it wholesale, like they did with republican voting machines in Florida.
    Hanging chat was swinging in midair for Bush the Lesser. Is that how you win the battle of ideas?

  21. keepinitreal says:

    Those were democrat machines and ballot design slag. LOL.

  22. ManuelMartini says:

    When did Diebold become Democrat?

  23. ManuelMartini says:

    Credentials for writing for examiner.com?

    Just let them know what the subject is.

    Funny how they are so slanted to the conservative side, with that extensive criteria for their hiring practices of writers.

    http://apply.examiner.com/

  24. ========
    WARNING
    ========

    The comment posted above on JAN. 10, 2012 AT 3:14 PM bears no resemblance whatsoever to Fact or Truth.

    “Those were democrat machines and ballot design slag. LOL.”

    If it were actual FACT or TRUTH it would have included some attribution in the form of a researchable document(s) or web link(s) that one could use to verify the data.

    As it is simply the unfounded opinion of it’s remiss author, it may be completely ignored.

  25. 1/10 @ 2:33 PM The left just did a good job of deflecting.

    “DEFLECTING” so early in the thread?

    Someone has been very thoroughly Pavlovian trained by The Great Deflector!

  26. aislander says:

    So…every conservative I know wishes to take measures to prevent voter fraud, and every lefty seems to want to block those measures.

    Now HERE’S a poser: Why would anyone wish to facilitate voter fraud?

    Tough one, that!

  27. I agree with you Michael. It’s not in the Republican’s best interest to make voting easy.

  28. Now HERE’S a better poser: why would an alleged “fiscal conservative” want to spend taxpayer dollars to prevent something that hasn’t been shown to be a problem?

  29. Again, aislander, you have not been paying close enough attention.

    Conservatives wish to prevent eligible voters from voting if those potential voters fit a profile that would indicate they would be likely to vote against conservatives.

    That is “Why [Republicans] wish to facilitate voter fraud.”

    Republicans have been promoting restrictive voting laws, that constitute pre-vote voter fraud, in order to prohibit certain groups of people from being allowed to vote in the first place.

    Not a tough question at all. And I am more than HAPPY to answer YOUR questions. Too bad you don’t answer mine.

    In the future, will you try harder to keep up with the conversation aislander? It slows things down every time we have to explain something to you, again.

  30. aislander says:

    Easy! Anything that will prevent Dems from stealing elections will MORE than pay for itself in taxpayer money not spent on zany programs…

  31. aislander says:

    My preceding post was in reply to ehill…

  32. GOP-led states change voting rules before 2012

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — After years of expanding when and how people can vote, state legislatures now under new Republican control are moving to trim early voting days, beef up identification requirements and put new restrictions on how voters are notified about absentee ballots.

    http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110922/APC0101/109220509/GOP-led-states-change-voting-rules-before-2012

  33. Red States Move to Change Voting Laws Ahead of 2012 Election: Are They Doing it to Hurt Democrats?

    By ASHLEY PORTERO: Subscribe to Ashley’s RSS feed
    September 21, 2011 10:24 AM EDT
    The right to vote, one of the most defining rights of our democracy, is under attack.

    With their eyes set keenly on the upcoming 2012 presidential elections, several Republican-led states have either passed or initiated legislation this year that severely hampers certain citizens’ ability to vote, a move that some critics have said is a blatant example of voter suppression.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/217638/20110921/republicans-rewrite-state-election-laws-florida-wisconsin-voting-rules.htm

  34. Republicans rewriting state election laws in ways that could hurt Democrats

    By Krissah Thompson and Aaron Blake, Published: September 15
    Looking to capitalize on their historic gains last year, Republican lawmakers in several states are rewriting their election laws in ways that could make it more difficult for Democrats to win.

    They have curbed early voting, rolled back voting rights for ex-felons and passed stricter voter ID laws. Taken together, the measures could have a significant and negative effect on President Obama’s reelection efforts if they keep young people and minorities away from the polls.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/republicans-rewriting-state-election-laws-in-ways-that-could-hurt-democrat/2011/09/15/gIQApcuhVK_story.html

  35. keepinitreal says:

    It’s a sight to behold really… Aislander so thoroughly stepping on the bugs.

    The wallpapering goes on, and on and on, yet we can still see what’s under it.

  36. concernedtacoma7 says:

    So ex felons are black? And minorities cannot get IDs? Anymore racism from the left?

  37. “Anything that will prevent Dems from stealing elections will MORE than pay for itself in taxpayer money not spent on zany programs…”

    You have no evidence that anyone stole elections.

  38. ehill, you should know by now that aislander never provides evidence for anything he writes. Why would he start now?

  39. Anyone who is only concerned with purported attempts at voter fraud that benefits one side is just a partisan hack who is doing whatever they think is necessary to try to win.

  40. truthbusterguy says:

    ehill,
    Court filing are able to cross-reference juror disqualifications in counties with voter registration databases.

    Recent public records requests from two counties in this state show that residents kicked off county jury pools, where you have to prove your are a resident of the USA, shows that 50% disqualified from serving on the jury had in fact have been voting for years.

    The bigger problem is in WA state you don’t have to prove you are a citizen to get a drivers lic. Why is the deck so stacked in favor of the democrats?

    At least people are starting to see one pary rule in WA State is why we are so broken and ready to vote for an (R).

    The fact that people are voting, that can’t prove they are citizens so they can serve on a jury, is proof enough we need to check ID.

  41. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    truthbuster is right,

    http://citizenreviewonline.org/2011/Apr/non_citizen_voters.html

    chill, you and your libs chew on this. If the truth is ever exposed in the large counties in this state the media will be force to tell the public THE TRUTH.

  42. menopaws says:

    If you can’t win an election on your ideas—then suppress the vote………Let’s be CLEAR……Each and every state that has passed these laws is REPUBLICAN. They either count on suppressing or scaring voters or the courts to win……….Look at the crowd running now—would you invite any of them to your home for a BBQ? The only saving grace is that two of these states have strong civil rights violations from their glorious past, where it was PROVEN they turned away voters because of the color of their skin……….one is South Carolina and the other is Texas—they can pass whatever laws they want–the Justice Department can and will nullify them…….Having a history of voter discrimination does not give you a free pass to continue it…….
    One thing you can count on with the Republican party—they will steal an election any way they can!!!!! My husband and I are already checking out where to move in our retirement—gvt. under Gingrich or Santorium not the way we want to spend our “golden years”…….when Bush was re-elected the request for visas in Canada soared to its highest point……..That’s the game–suppress votes or make your population flee like refugees–real Republican mantra!!!!

  43. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    And please, give up the vote recount thing on Rossi and our “girl”… Get over it. There were REPUBLIKANS

    So… there were no “DUMBOCRAPS” witnessing the recount in Florida? And I wonder how much it cost Bush to buy-off the SCOTUS.

  44. alindasue says:

    ManuelMartini provided this link:
    “http://factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/”
    Soundlife provided this link:
    “http://rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html”

    Of the two, I’m more inclined to check the more neutral Fact Check site than a site whose very address says that all information provided by the site is geared toward proving how “rotten” ACORN is. Neutral sites are more inclined to provide a more complete set of facts.

    concernedtacoma7,

    I’d like to learn which states you know about that offer government issued picture ID for free. Here it costs $20.

    Last year, I helped two people I know who didn’t have valid ID because they were both running into the ‘you need ID to get ID’ scenario.

    One of them was gentleman in his 50s who had recently been laid off from a job he’d been at for many years. His paychecks were all direct deposit. He did all his dealings with cash which he obtained at the bank’s ATM machine. He rides the bus or walks everywhere, so he doesn’t have a drivers license.

    When he went to apply for unemployment benefits, he discovered that his ID expired six years ago. Since they no longer allow an old ID to be used as an “A-List Document” for renewal after it’s been expired for five years, I had to get online (he doesn’t have internet – or a cell phone for that matter) to help him find four “B-List Documents”, some of which he had to send for (like his DD 214), so that he could present them to finally obtain a valid ID a few months later.

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/idproof.html

    Now, he does fit some of the stereo-types for a person without ID: low income, minimum education – however, I do find his situation ironic in the context of this discussion here. He’s a very conservative Republican.

  45. “The fact that people are voting, that can’t prove they are citizens so they can serve on a jury, is proof enough we need to check ID.”

    I hate to interrupt a perfectly fine rant with the facts, but the actual fact is that juror disqualifications happen for a lot of reasons, not solely because the potential juror isn’t a legal citizen.

    RCW 2.36.070 Qualification of juror.
    “A person shall be competent to serve as a juror in the state of Washington unless that person:
    (1) Is less than eighteen years of age;
    (2) Is not a citizen of the United States;
    (3) Is not a resident of the county in which he or she has been summoned to serve;
    (4) Is not able to communicate in the English language; or
    (5) Has been convicted of a felony and has not had his or her civil rights restored.”

    I was disqualified from a jury several years because I was called to serve in King County about a week after I had moved to Kitsap County.

  46. Human beings can be counted on to cheat. Dems and Republicans. Measures must be taken to keep elections free from fraud and corruption.

  47. rooster_02 says:

    The letter to the editor is spot on. The repubs want as few people at the polls as possible. It is the only way they can win. The Acorn issue was revealed by….get ready for this…..ACORN! The people that were paid to register voters committed the crime and the acorn supervisors reported it. The repubs tried to turn the story around and it worked for the intellectually lazy including some that post regular comments in the TNT(no need to point out the obvious). If the repubs are so concerned about voter fraud why aren’t they out registering voters? Guess? Because the more citizens that are registered to vote adds up to one thing…more progressive candidates will be elected and the republickin party will be marginalized.

  48. alindasue says:

    truthbusterguy said, “Recent public records requests from two counties in this state show that residents kicked off county jury pools, where you have to prove your are a resident of the USA, shows that 50% disqualified from serving on the jury had in fact have been voting for years.”

    Please cite the source of your information because I have my doubts about its validity.

    One, a person can be a resident of the USA without being a citizen and vice-versa.

    Two, the jury pools are now gleaned from ID/driver’s license rolls, meaning that the people involved had valid ID.

    Three, there are many reasons a person may be disqualified from a jury pool – many of them having more to do with the cases to be tried than the potential juror himself.

    In other words, comparing qualifying for jury pools to validity of voter registrations is akin to comparing apples to bananas.

  49. alindasue says:

    ehill said, “I was disqualified from a jury several years because I was called to serve in King County about a week after I had moved to Kitsap County.”

    In a similar case, my oldest daughter disqualified from serving in Pierce County because she’s currently living and attending school in Pullman.

  50. Pacman33 says:

    I’m guilty of Voter Discrimination.
    I will go on the record and admit; I do, in fact, discriminate against voters who would vote in an United States election that do not possess legal United States Citizenship.

    I know, I know, I’m just a draconian SOB.

    Even worse …… I don’t dismiss Voter Registration Fraud.
    If a vote is cast with a fraudulent registration, it then becomes Voter Fraud.

    Voter Registration Fraud = Mass Voter Fraud

  51. Pacman33 says:

    During the 2008 election season, ACORN gathered over 1.3 million voter registration forms in 21 states. Some of these registration forms were flagged by ACORN’s internal auditors for review by election officials. It was estimated by Project Vote that 400,000 registrations collected by ACORN were ultimately rejected. In 2006, 26,513 registrations submitted by ACORN over a nine-month period in San Diego County, California, 4,655 were flagged.

    In a case in Washington state where seven temporary employees of ACORN
    were charged with submitting fraudulent voter registrations, ACORN agreed to pay King County $25,000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again. In August 2008, ACORN caught, fired and reported employees Maria Miles and Kevin Clancy, who later pled guilty to repeatedly registering the names of the same registered voters. In May 2009, six ACORN employees in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania pled guilty to charges of a combined total of 51 counts of forgery and other violations while registering voters during the 2008 election cycle.

    In plea deals in a 2009 Las Vegas case, former ACORN field director Amy Busefink and ACORN official Christopher Edwards pled guilty to “conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters” in connection with a quota system for paid registration staff. Edwards was sentenced to a year’s probation and agreed to testify for prosecutors in charges against ACORN and against Busefink.

  52. keepinitreal says:

    Anyone who is NOT concerned with purported attempts at voter fraud that benefits one side is just a partisan hack who is doing whatever they think is necessary to try to win.

  53. alindasue says:

    Pacman33 said, “Some of these registration forms were flagged by ACORN’s internal auditors for review by election officials.”

    In your own words, you are admitting that ACORN themselves turned in the temporary workers who fraudulently submitted voter registrations. Invalid voter registrations or signatures don’t benefit them any more than they benefit the rest of us.

    I’d say that the problem is less organizations like ACORN or whether the person registering had valid ID, but rather more a system that allows temporary paid signature gatherers gather signatures on multiple issues and to submit voter registrations on a per submission basis. That’s a problem that pretty much crosses the political spectrum.

    The difference is that ACORN actually turned in its temporary workers who abused the system.

  54. ManuelMartini says:

    I’m concerned about voter fraud. When the CEO of the company making the machines guarantees a win for a candidate in a certain state, you can pretty well calculate there is fraud coming. I guess I’m not a partisan hack.

  55. keepinitreal says:

    In response to the Jan. 10, 2012 at 4:14pm wallpaper.

    Just keeping it real.

    Theresa LePore is a former Supervisor of Elections for Palm Beach County, Florida. She is most notable as the person who designed the infamous “butterfly ballot”, used in the 2000 presidential election. LePore was a registered Democrat. After the 2000 election, she switched her party registration to No Party Affiliation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_LePore

  56. keepinitreal says:

    ============
    WARNING
    ============
    The comment posted above on Jan. 11, 2012 at 8:57 bears no resemblance whatsoever to Fact or Truth.
    If it were actual FACT or TRUTH it would have some attribution in the form of a researchable document or web link that one could use to verify the data.
    As it is simply the unfounded opinion of it’s remiss author, it may be completely ignored.

  57. redneckbuck says:

    buying votes….increase those on government aid, it’s as simple as that.

  58. “Voter Registration Fraud = Mass Voter Fraud”

    LOL sure, and since some stolen motor vehicles have fraudulent regitration, “motor vehicle registration = massive auto theft”.

  59. aislander says:

    It is certainly true that human beings of all ideological stripes are inclined to cheat, as sozo says, but the question must be posed: which side is asking that ANYTHING be done about it?

  60. Pacman, nice job of plagiarism.

  61. “the question must be posed: which side is asking that ANYTHING be done about it?”

    The same side that has presented no evidence that vote fraud is of sufficient import as to require the expenditure of additional taxpayer dollars while simultaneously claiming to be “fiscal conservatives”, that’s who.

  62. aislander says:

    Your analogy is dishonest, ehill. That should be: motor vehicle registration FRAUD=auto theft…

    However, just as registration fraud doesn’t equate linearly to auto theft (some cars are stolen for parts and some for joyrides or to commit some other crime), one doesn’t necessarily need commit registration fraud to commit voter fraud. However, it is logical to infer that registration fraud translates linearly to voter fraud.

    The takeaway? Voter fraud is probably greater than registration fraud…

  63. AS USUAL >>> keepinitreal <<>>> “Those were democrat machines and ballot design slag. LOL.”

    Now, he pretends to provide documentation, BUT ITS NOT CORRECT!

    First of all “Therese LePore” is NOT a voting machine. She is a person.

    Therese LePore is credited with designing the controversial “butterfly” punch-out ballot that confused many voters in Florida, but it seems it was more an error of incompetence than intent.

    AS USUAL keepinitreal did NOT read the entire article at the link he provided, which is…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_LePore

    IF keepinitreal had read the entire article, which he apparently never does, he would have read this…

    “In 2000, to accommodate the large number of Presidential candidates eligible in Florida, LePore designed a staggered two-page format with candidate names on alternating sides of a central punch button column. Under her predecessor Jackie Winchester, in the 1996 election the butterfly ballot caused an estimated 14,000 votes for the second candidate on the left (Bob Dole) to be miscast,[6] but this did not affect the election outcome and went unnoticed at the time.”

    So LePore simply followed the precedent of ballot design created by her “predecessor Jackie Winchester,” There was not INTENTIONAL voter fraud whatsoever. It was simply an error that went unnoticed until it was too late. Some might call that incompetence, but no one can call it VOTER FRAUD. The article goes on to say…

    “In the 2000 election, the miscast votes would have been a decisive reversal and consequently achieved notoriety. A study by the “The Palm Beach Post” speculated that voters confused by Palm Beach County’s butterfly ballot cost Al Gore the presidency.[7]”

    This was determined after a vote recount was prevented by The United States Supreme Court issuing their ruling awarding the election to George W. Bush. This error, even though it was created by a Democrat but was NOT intentional, benefitted the Republican candidate immensely! Why should a Republican like keepinitreal have a problem with that anyway?

    But the article continues…

    “Responding to public anger at the punch card systems, LePore bought paperless DRE voting machines from Sequoia Voting Systems in 2002.”

    SO ARE THESE THE “democrat machines” that keepinitreal claimed were the cause of voter fraud in Florida 2000? NO! Because these machines were NOT purchased by LePore until 2002!

    And, furthermore, if you do a quick google search for Sequoia Voting Systems, and click on the link below, you find that THOSE MACHINES WERE NOT DEMOCRAT, they were not even American at that time, because they were BRITISH!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoia_Voting_Systems

    Sequoia Voting Systems was a California-based company that was owned by De La Rue, a British currency paper printing and security company when it was a supplier of paper ballots to Florida in the 2000 election and DRE voting machines two years LATER.

    … and this from the same wiki page …

    “A 2007 investigative report by Dan Rather charged Sequoia with deliberately supplying poor quality punch-card ballots to Palm Beach County, Florida for the 2000 election.”

    WHICH AGAIN PROVES that paper punch-card ballots were used in that part of Florida for the 2000 election, not “democratic machines” as charged by keepinitreal and it was not just the design of the paper ballots, but also the quality of the BRITISH-supplied paper ballots.

    THEREFORE…

    the original 1/10 @ 3:14 PM comment posted by

    keepinitreal IS STILL WRONG

    and should be ignored, as

    ALL COMMENTS MADE BY >>> keepinitreal <<< SHOULD BE IGNORED.

    Including his obviously PLAGIARIZED fake WARNING comment.

    Perhaps keepinitreal might want to consider changing his latest alt to "keepini-UNreal"

  64. ManuelMartini says:

    Published on Thursday, August 28, 2003 by the Cleveland Plain Dealer
    Voting Machine Controversy
    by Julie Carr Smyth

    COLUMBUS – The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.”

    The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O’Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. – who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush – prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O’Dell’s company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

    O’Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors – known as Rangers and Pioneers – at the president’s Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party’s federal campaign fund – partially benefiting Bush – at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

    The letter went out the day before Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, also a Republican, was set to qualify Diebold as one of three firms eligible to sell upgraded electronic voting machines to Ohio counties in time for the 2004 election.

    ============
    WARNING
    ============
    The comment posted above bears proof to the on Jan. 11, 2012 at 8:57 comment. If it weren’t actual FACT or TRUTH there would be no ability to find this news story published in an Ohio daily newspaper. Any claims to the contrary should be ignored.

  65. ManuelMartini says:

    Why would a “registered Democrat” have the access to create ballots in a Republican Secretary of State’s office?

    Has someone been playing with the wiki records again?

    Very reminiscent of Condi Rice claiming that “we were using the previous administration’s policy on terrorism” a few days after 9/11/2001.

  66. “one doesn’t necessarily need commit registration fraud to commit voter fraud” == Unless you can back that claim up with actual, independent, reputable evidence, this is nothing more than bovine byproduct. Got facts, or is overblown hyperbole really the best you can do?

    “Voter fraud is probably greater than registration fraud” == See previous comment.

    =====

    And I can’t help but notice that not one person has presented ANY evidence that vote fraud is sufficiently widespread to justify tightening the requirements for casting a vote.

  67. aislander says:

    ehill writes: “‘one doesn’t necessarily need commit registration fraud to commit voter fraud’ == Unless you can back that claim up with actual, independent, reputable evidence, this is nothing more than bovine byproduct. Got facts, or is overblown hyperbole really the best you can do?

    So…are you disputing the 10:55 AM post by your co-religionist, ManuelMartini? HE cited vote fraud without registration fraud.

    I’D be in favor of investigating the case he cited, as well as requiring IDs to vote. We ALL want clean elections, after all. Or, don’t we?

  68. aislander says:

    BTW: How widespread must vote fraud BE in order to be “sufficiently” so?

  69. So far, not a single claim made by Michael L. Bowler, in his letter, has been successfully disputed.

    Interesting?

    Good letter!

  70. keepinitreal says:

    Exactly aislander. If the fraud benefited republicans the democrats would be screaming bloody murder.

  71. keepinitreal says:

    If wally has a problem with wiki’s article about Theresa LePore, the former Supervisor of Elections for Palm Beach County, Florida, who is most notable as the person who designed the infamous “butterfly ballot”, used in the 2000 presidential election, and who was a registered Democrat, then he should take it up with wiki. ;)

  72. “are you disputing the 10:55 AM post by your co-religionist, ManuelMartini? HE cited vote fraud without registration fraud.”

    He cited nothing about illegal aliens casting illegal votes. Try again.

  73. “How widespread must vote fraud BE in order to be “sufficiently” so?”

    Nice try. Failed, but nice. You’re the one who wants to implement more restrictive voting laws, so it’s up to you to make the case that the problem (if it exists at all) is sufficient to justify the expense of implementing new laws and enforcing them.

  74. “If the fraud benefited republicans the democrats would be screaming bloody murder”

    What fraud?

  75. keepinitreal says:

    It’s called accountability.

    If poor people can manage to get their free, government issued cell phone and minutes, surley they could aquire valid ID.

  76. BlaineCGarver says:

    Amazing…SCOTUS is picture perfect while supporting baby killing, and affirmative action, but when they rule that ‘Crat voting is crooked, they suck?? LMAO, you two-faced clowns.

  77. BlaineCGarver says:

    People are forgetting that Gore ONLY wanted to count the heavily ‘Cratic county, not the conservative one….and look at all the military absentee votes they axed…..Shamefull, to say the least.

  78. keepinitreal says:

    True Blaine… so true.

  79. BlaineCGarver says:

    SNIP: “George W. Bush discovered this was a Big Lie when he fanned U.S. attorneys out across the U.S., spent years and millions of our tax dollars to bring a grand total of 95 people to trial for federal election fraud.”

    Flawed logic, if those 95 cases affected the electorial college votes in enough states. Let’s see the breakdown of those cases and what they did, and WHO did the looking. And IIRC, they did find problems in Washington, but could not hang them on any one person. Tracks covered VERY well, indeed. To say ‘Crats don’t rig elections is denying the sun comes up in the east.

  80. Pacman33 says:

    ” … surely they could acquire valid ID.”

    NOOO! Not that. Anything else but that.

    What is next, keepin? Are you going to put an obstacle coarse in front of the polling locations? Like a door?

  81. A WHOLE LOT OF HYSTERICAL RHETORIC FROM THE RIGHT, but still not a single claim made by Michael L. Bowler, in his letter, has been successfully disputed.

  82. ManuelMartini says:

    “People are forgetting that Gore ONLY wanted to count the heavily ‘Cratic county, not the conservative one”

    Because they GOP didn’t cheat heavily Republican favored counties.

  83. ManuelMartini says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theresa_LePore&action=history

    Could the “LePore” registered Democrat be a right wing information manipulation?

  84. SandHills says:

    There is something very strange about any argument against proof of identity in order to vote. Given all the other things you need proof of identity – for one, go to a bank to cash a check – and if you had money in an account would you like to have the bank hand out your money just because someone says they are you without a photo ID? Given the importance of the vote, I don’t understand why ALL states don’t require a photo ID in order to register to vote and every time you cast a vote.

  85. menopaws says:

    This country is supposed to be a Democracy–not some banana republic where people are afraid of exercising their vote……..Being poor and/or elderly without the usual drivers license should NOT be a deterrent……….All the Republican Party needs to do is prove that by sponsoring voter registration drives and HELPING people get their voter registration cards……..But, that requires some incentive and the basic belief in our system of government. It should NOT be about power. Why is it sooo hard to just do the right thing and support and nuture our Democracy? We used to stand as a beacon to the rest of the world for allowing everyone, rich or poor, black or white—the right to participate in their government……..Now, it is about creating obstacles to frighten people or intimidate people. Much like Putin or some of the elections in Haiti or Yemen or the Sudan……..think about that—long and hard. This is just NOT the way to handle illegal votes—our system can do a better job of this than using intimidation at the ballot box. If we can’t build a better database to do this—then maybe we are in trouble…..

  86. keepinitreal says:

    Looks pretty darn easy NW.

  87. NWflyfisher, EXCELLENT!!!!

    You have just proven with that video link that a Conservative has actually committed VOTER FRAUD in the 2012 New Hampshire Primary Election!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-uVhhIlPk0&feature=player_embedded

    James O’Keefe’s Group Appears To Commit Voter Fraud In Order To Gin Up Hysteria Over Non-Existent Fraud Problem

    By Scott Keyes on Jan 11, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    James O’Keefe’s latest video features surrogates appearing to commit voter fraud in yesterday’s New Hampshire primary election, all in an attempt to highlight voter fraud, a problem which is by-and-large nonexistent in the Granite State.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/01/11/402756/james-o-keefe-voter-fraud/

    Who is James O’Keefe?

    James E. O’Keefe III (born June 28, 1984) is a conservative American activist who has produced audio and video recordings of staged encounters with public figures and workers in a variety of organizations, purportedly showing abusive or illegal behavior by representatives of those organizations. He gained national attention for his release of video recordings of workers at ACORN offices in 2009

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe

    Now I think the headline of the Scott Keyes article is wrong, because there IS Voter Fraud, as was committed by O’Keefe, so it is NOT non-existent. But as O’Keefe is a Conservative (Republican) then it clearly shows that Michael Bowler is correct that Republicans are committing Voter Fraud because O’Keefe did and he is.

    Are there problems with the way New Hampshire validates voters before they vote? Sure. It’s obvious from the video.

    Something needs to be done. And, maybe it needs to involve a picture ID of some kind. So, you have swayed me your way. But, let’s make sure that whatever is done is fair to everyone, even those folks who would tend to vote Democratic, okay?

    P.S. And to be fair, O’Keefe should be arrested and prosecuted for committing Voter Fraud in New Hampshire. The law, is the law! You know?

  88. Pacman33 says:

    Community Organized Crime

    http://capitalresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/7-23-09-ogr-acorn-report.pdf

    Not much Justice to be found within ‘Social Justice’

    A nother
    C ommunist
    O rganization
    R uining the
    N ation

  89. NWflyfisher says:

    He never claimed to BE the individual and only asked if they have the individual on the register.

    He never asked for a ballot, he was handed one after the pollworker verified the name he asked about was in fact on the register.

    He never voted returning the ballot instead to the poll worker saying he would rather present his ID and then left the polling place.

    What voting laws did he break?

    Having read your post carefully, I now recognize the style as one of the many personas I’ve vowed to ignore. Consider this my final response to you.

  90. aislander says:

    sum_nos seems pleased that he thinks a conservative may have been caught committing voter fraud. I don’t really care who it was. If there is fraud by ANYONE, the system needs to be cleaned up. What are you guys really afraid of?

    BCG: It isn’t just “flawed logic,” it is sophistry–deliberately and underhandedly flawed logic…

  91. took14theteam says:

    Are you going to put an obstacle coarse in front of the polling locations? Like a door?

    LMAO!!!! Thanks for that!!!!

  92. NWflyfisher, how Un-American can you be?

    Isn’t it customary in America to give people three chances before you strike them out. Yes, it is! It’s based on the great American game Baseball.

    As far as I know this is the very FIRST time you have ever communicated anything specifically to me by name on these threads. And then, all you did was supply a link with no explanation.

    Then, when I reply back to you and say “you swayed me” to your view, you put me on your ignore list.

    That is positively a North Korean Communist-like thing to do!

    Well, if that’s the way you want to be, like a COMMIE DICTATOR, NWflyfisher-Jong-Un, then fine! DON’T ever post a comment to me again.

    You do see the irony in this don’t you? I am the one who has the OPEN MIND who was willing to change his view based on evidence you supplied, but you were’t happy with that so you had to slam the door shut EVEN THOUGH I AGREED WITH YOU!

  93. aislander says:

    An obstacle course? Is that like Black Panthers with clubs? That’s the only REAL obstacle to voting I’ve seen lately…

  94. aislander says:

    Gee–I thought exercising freedom of association was a very American thing to do…

  95. ManuelMartini says:

    “sum_nos seems pleased that he thinks a conservative may have been caught committing voter fraud. I don’t really care who it was. If there is fraud by ANYONE, the system needs to be cleaned up. What are you guys really afraid of?”

    OK, so let’s start with the system that provided more votes in a precinct for Bush than there were voters in said precinct in Ohio. That sounds like the real problem, not a handful of bad registrations.

    Who is “sum_nos”? Is aislander also part of the “keepinit/took14″ alts?

  96. ManuelMartini says:

    How many “Black Panthers” were seen at how many polling places in 2008?

    Oh, it was two black men in one polling place? Maybe they were protecting the rights of black voters in Philadelphia.

    This brings me to a question on the 2nd Amendment. What would you say if you saw a black man carrying a gun in a protest?

  97. Pacman – all those voter registrations flagged by ACORN’s internal auditors…..that seems to demonstrate that ACORN was working to prevent fraud.

  98. “when they rule that ‘Crat voting is crooked, they suck??”

    When exactly did they issue such a ruling? Or did you just make that up?

  99. Still waiting for someone – ANYONE – to show ANY evidence that vote fraud exists at a level sufficient to justify spending additional taxpayer dollars.

    Anyone got facts?

  100. “An obstacle course? Is that like Black Panthers with clubs? That’s the only REAL obstacle to voting I’ve seen lately…”

    If those two guys were white, the wrong-wingers in here would be defending their right to bear arms, but since they’re black, they’re “obstacles to voting”. Racism rears its ugly head again.

  101. keepinitreal says:

    Obstacle course… Black Panthers with clubs… a Justice dept. that reportedly stated, ‘the law should not be used against black wrongdoers because of the long history of slavery and segregation. Less charitable individuals called it payback time.’

  102. aislander says:

    Who can read on this forum? I’ve repeatedly stated that voting irregularities committed by the left OR the right need to be addressed by cleaning up the whole system…

  103. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Isn’t it customary in America to give people three chances before you strike them out.

    LMAO! So sayeth the genius who has self-banned replying to many conservatives here – including me.

    You do see the irony in this don’t you? I am the one who has the OPEN MIND who was willing to change his view based on evidence you supplied…

    ROTFLMFAO, stop, muck, please stop!

  104. Now come on Vox_, you know I gave YOU and the others in the TBI way way wwwwaaaayyyyy more than 3 chances before I exiled you. Let’s be honest shall we?

    You are funny too! But not that funny.

  105. “I’ve repeatedly stated that voting irregularities committed by the left OR the right need to be addressed by cleaning up the whole system…”

    ROFL – that’s hysterically funny coming from the author of “Anything that will prevent Dems from stealing elections will MORE than pay for itself in taxpayer money not spent on zany programs…”

    Pardon me, but your hypocirsy is showing.

  106. “Who can read on this forum?”

    Hey, the ONLY one reading your stuff is your cheerleader keepinitreal. No one else gives a rip what you write aislander.

    Pardon me, but your arrogance is showing.

  107. I guess that was a little unfair. Of course people do READ your comments, but obviously few think there’s anything worthwhile in them, as you have clearly pointed out:

    “I’ve repeatedly stated …” and people have repeatedly ignored what you have “repeatedly stated.” Maybe that’s because you >>> repeat <<< the same dang things from thread to thread. So, whatever you've posted here, we've already read it before on other threads. Well, at least you have your very own cheerleader.

    More importantly, getting back to the big lie about Voter Fraud!

    If some of you have NOT yet read this story…

    James O’Keefe’s Group Appears To Commit Voter Fraud In Order To Gin Up Hysteria Over Non-Existent Fraud Problem

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/01/11/402756/james-o-keefe-voter-fraud/

    … you really should, Because it really looks like at least one of O'Keefe's fake voters did break New Hampshire law. Probably more of his people did as well as him included. I have to thank NYflyfisher for alerting me to this example of real voter fraud. Thanks!

  108. keepinitreal says:

    If you’re going to post links to left of center thinkprogress, try not to be dismissive the next time someone posts from a right of center web site. But you knew that.

    In every single instance in the video the ballot was returned. Aislander hit the nail on the head. We all want clean elections. No?

  109. ManuelMartini says:

    I note that the whole “Black Panthers” crap cooled off after my post disclosed two black males at one voting precinct.

    This is the conservative way of manipulating the issue to make it sound worse than it really is. I agree with ehill about the racial implications.

  110. ManuelMartini says:

    “Trent Deckard, Democratic co-director of the state Election Division, in an e-mail Thursday told The Tribune Obama’s 2008 petition for primary ballot placement in the state contained just 534 certified signatures in the 2nd Congressional District. Clinton’s petition contained 704 certified signatures, he said.

    U.S. Attorney will not investigate Obama, Clinton petitions
    Presidential candidates must collect at least 500 signatures in each of the state’s nine congressional districts to appear on the statewide primary ballot in Indiana.

    As reported Sunday, The Tribune, in conjunction with Howey Politics Indiana, has uncovered scores of fake signatures on both the Obama and Clinton petitions in the 2nd Congressional District and specifically St. Joseph County.”
    ———-

    Funny how “certified signatures” become “faked” in a paragraph.

  111. SCORPION says:

    Black Panthers – it is irrelevant the number of individuals nor where they were (urban, suburban, rural). Two men were standing in front of a polling place with a club. It was wrong of them no matter their stated intetions to do that.

    As a test of race it would be also wrong for any member of a particular race to stand in front of a polling place with any sort of weapon or perceived weapon… that does includes ehill’s white guys with guns, Hispanics with machetes and Asians with numchucks…

    Racism charge… we have the classic attempt but ehill how is that racism to state a descriptive fact?

  112. ManuelMartini says:

    “Two men were standing in front of a polling place with a club.”

    “Clubs” aren’t “arms”?

    arm 2 (ärm)
    n.
    1. A weapon

    Clubs were a method of self defense long before guns were invented. The right to bear arms is all inclusive, unless discriminatory.

    As to “Black Panthers”, if two “Tea Party” members stand in a polling place with rifles – well, you get the drift.

  113. SCORPION says:

    Martini what are you talking about in your above post?

    To clarify if necessary, clubs can be considered weapons dependent on the holder and the environment.

    The right to bear arms is all inclusive except to those prohibited by current law.

    If I remember correctly it is agains the law to brandish a firearm at a polling place, so it’s against the law to begin with. So I gotta ask whats you point? Didn’t I say this in my “As a test…” paragraph.

    You remind me of somebody, can’t quite put my finger on it. I am sure it will come.

  114. aislander says:

    It’s not a question of “if” the two men were standing in front of a polling place with clubs and surly expressions, and it’s not a question of “if” they were Black Panthers.

    It all was what it was…

    So…let’s clean up the system and eliminate the possibility of cheating by either side.

    Unless there’s some reason ONE side would like to be able to cheat…

  115. “Two men were standing in front of a polling place with a club.”

    Reads like the beginning of a bad joke. So, what’s the PUNCH line?

    Wait a sec, what kind of club was it?

    A Chess Club!

    Checkmate!

    Lighten-up Francis!

  116. SCORPION says:

    grow up muckibr you are reverting… statement of fact. Don’t you like facts presented in a post?

  117. Lighten-up Francis, er SCORPION!

    We don’t have to get so damn serious all the time that all you ever do is criticize people who don’t believe as you do. My gawd, you’re starting to read just like aislander! Which you will probably take as a compliment, but it really isn’t meant that way.

    Lighten-up! Francis!

  118. SCORPION says:

    Black Panthers – it is irrelevant the number of individuals nor where they were (urban, suburban, rural). Two men were standing in front of a polling place with what appeared to be a pipe shape object approx. 18-24 inches in length, what is commonly referred to as a ‘club’.

    It was wrong of them no matter their stated intentions to engage in that behavior.

    Presenting an ID to vote is a practice for the common good to ensure the integrity of the voting process. Provisions are made for those that do not have nor are able to obtain an ID. Many are free of charge.

    The only thing it asks is that the citizen put some effort into obtaining the ID and thereby becoming an active member in this Democracy of ours.

  119. SCORPION says:

    “Lighten-up Francis, er SCORPION!”

    Don’t you dare ever lecture me (or anyone for that matter) about name calling. Enough with your hypocrisy.

  120. Like I posted yesterday at 1:22 PM

    “A WHOLE LOT OF HYSTERICAL RHETORIC FROM THE RIGHT, but still not a single claim made by Michael L. Bowler, in his letter, has been successfully disputed.”

    Instead here you guys are arguing if “clubs” should be considered weapons or not.

    TALK ABOUT DEFLECTION!!! GEEZ LOU-EEZE!!!

    For once, God help me, I find myself actually agreeing with aislander, who wrote…

    “It’s not a question of “if” the two men were standing in front of a polling place with clubs and surly expressions, and it’s not a question of “if” they were Black Panthers.”

    “It all was what it was…”

    How about everyone “grow-up,” including and especially you SCORP, and discuss the topic.

    And get a sense of humor while you are at it. Or, are righties the only ones allowed to post attempts at humor on these threads to lighten things up? Because I did not see that rule posted anywhere.

    We should all be working together to come up with ideas to clean-up the system on BOTH SIDES. (That’s not just me saying that. Go back and read aislander’s post at 11:10 AM)

    Just pointing fingers at the other side and arguing about “clubs” gets us absolutely nowhere!

    (Could it be that aislander and SCORPION have somehow swapped identities? Because I would have never guessed I could have found agreement with aislander on this, or any other topic for that matter.)

  121. SCORP, in case you hadn’t noticed, I gave up on lecturing anyone about name-calling a long time back. I mention it now and then, but I NEVER lecture. My supposed lecturing hasn’t stopped you or any of your pals from calling me names, so like Mitt Romney said the other day, “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”

    That okay with you?

    My previous post at 12:24 is all about growing-up and discussing the topic. No name-calling. So, let’s get back to the topic okay?

    Have you (or anyone else) got any ideas on how we can stop Vote Fraud without incurring Voter Suppression?

  122. SCORPION says:

    Clubs and the brandishing of them is a component of the discussion if it was used to intimidate in any way any voter attempting to vote. We actually don’t know if that actually occurred or not at that particular precinct.

    As a matter it was wrong of them to stand there with a club in their hand period. Yes, “it all was what it was…”

    To use you terms – Voter Suppression, Voter Registration Fraud and Voter Fraud are just symptoms of a poorly designed and/or manipulated system.

    And yes, the board is full of ideas for a clean voting process but the deflection, name calling, etc.. continues.

    ID – this has been attacked but no case has been made that it is a bad idea. A solution already exist or can exist for every issue raised. Too poor… free ID, Can’t get away for the house… Voter drive organizations provide the assistance needed to get the components needed to apply for an ID…

    And how pitiful are you if in other countries people walk literally through a gauntlet of bombs, bullets and actual corruption to engage in the voting process. And we here are whining about a friggin’ ID… puleaze

  123. SCORPION says:

    Again, for the TNT discussion board record, please don’t pretend that your long hypocritical post have any meaning to me….

    Two choices before you… respond to the 1:00 post or this one…

    (or neither for that matter)

  124. If you were directing your 1:02 post at me SCORP, I choose the secondary alternative you offered.

    I don’t believe I am being in the least bit hypocritical. As I post comments to these blogs I learn things, both regarding the subject matter and the protocols of posting as demonstrated by other posters, like you.

    I incorporate that new information into my body of knowledge (I learn) and then move on. Some people don’t seem to be able to learn new ideas, and get stuck.

    I suggest we get unstuck from the “club” tangent and move back on to the VOTING issue.

  125. SCORPION says:

    Responding to the 1:02 post…. that is truely your nature…

    Voter ID – there is a solution raised for every possible legitimate issue.

    Question – where does government respondsibility end (or ideally crossover) to provide a fair voter registration and voting process?

    And where does the citizen respondsibility begins to participate in the voter registration and voting process?

    ID for voter registration is not an unresonable request nor respondsibilty required of the citizen.

  126. And STILL no evidence that vote fraud rises to the level of seriousness sufficient to justify spending taxpayer dollars on additional restrictions on voting.

  127. SCORPION says:

    At what point does it rise to some arbitrary level ehill. You and your ilk have claimed multiple episodes of voter fraud when ‘your’ candidiate loses. Is that sufficient?

    There are no restriction asked for any citizen to lawfully engage in the voting process. None…

  128. keepnitreal says:

    Excellent point SCORPION. aislander was making that point too.

    Why does it escape our progressive friends ability to comprehend ?

  129. alindasue says:

    SCORPION said, “A solution already exist or can exist for every issue raised. Too poor… free ID, Can’t get away for the house… Voter drive organizations provide the assistance needed to get the components needed to apply for an ID…”

    You are the second person to mention “free ID” without providing a source directing us to where the supposed “free” IDs exist. Here in Washington state, they cost $20.

    I also know of no “voter drive” organizations that help people obtain IDs. It’s a good idea, but I’ve seen no evidence of such programs existing. Usually, voter drives just hand out and collect voter registration forms. That’s not the same as helping people obtain IDs.

  130. SCORPION says:

    ‘real – Reading the thread I see some potential solutions provided and instead of exploring it as a potential solution… NO! Racist, Cost, or some other excuse…

    I am not saying anything different that what you guys have been saying all thread long…

  131. SCORPION says:

    Alindasue – this might be an example of where government responsibility ends – providing a means to get an ID for $20.00, and citizen responsibility begins – making the effort to apply and then pay for an ID.

    Organizations – voter drive organizations typically do not provide a means to get an ID as a component to vote, you are most likely correct. “it’s a good idea…” yes, it is and I know I am not the only one to have thought of it.

    From your post, no you don’t know a source for ‘free ID’s”, neither do I (in Washington State), would not the line of citizen responsibility begin there by asking what sources or services are available to me for a low cost to no cost ID… just sayin’

    I am just shocked that we have people around the world who overcome bullets and bombs to vote but won’t give up an afternoon to get an ID.

    Citizen – it used to mean something.

  132. “At what point does it rise to some arbitrary level ehill.”

    Nobody’s shown ANY appreciable level of vote fraud level yet. Why do you insist on fixing something that you can’t show to be broken?

  133. SCORPION says:

    ehill – they have referred to multiple incidents of voter registration fraud which then leads to voter fraud.

    You can play the ‘only voter fraud’ game all you want but we are not transfixed on the shining object over there… it has happened, it is happening.

    Why do you want to allow a fallable system to continue? It can rob your candidate of choice of votes? Don’t you want an as perfect a system as possible? You don’t want to harm little puppies do you? ;)

  134. Does anyone think that our 100% Vote By Mail system we have here in Washington state is the solution to preventing vote fraud?

  135. aislander says:

    SCORPION: I apologize if I inadvertently contradicted you, although I think that may have been in the eye of the beholder.

    All I’m saying is that the voting process should be cleaned up to the greatest extent possible, regardless of which “side” may be cheating.

    It just seems that one of them seems to wish to preserve the ability to cheat.

    Perhaps the cards that are used in lieu of food stamps could serve double duty as ID for the poor. I have my picture on my credit and debit cards, after all…

  136. keepnitreal says:

    If the government can give out free cell phones and minutes and poor people are able to pick them up, SURELY we could find a way to help usher them into the mainstream with free photo ID.

  137. keepnitreal says:

    “Perhaps the cards that are used in lieu of food stamps could serve double duty as ID for the poor.”

    BINGO !

  138. SCORPION says:

    aislander – we contradicted each other??? I am late to this thread, reading what you guys posted and am in agreement with you guys. I was responding to ‘real who thought I made an ‘excellent point’… appreciate that but just following you guys lead.

    Double Bingo! – if no picture then add that to the process for limited cost, reduce fraud adn abuse… execellent idea.

    See alindasue, just a little brainstorming and we have solved the limited income for an ID problem.

    Now, if we could just solve the casino and strip club problem, hmmm…

  139. aislander says:

    No, SCORP, I don’t think we did, but sum_nos maintains he agrees with me and not with you, and, since I usually don’t read his posts except when the “find” function discerns my moniker in one of them, I’m not sure what the disagreement may have been. Thus, my 4:15 post.

    As for the strip-club problem: I believe that, under the Americans With Disabilities Act, strippers should be compelled to make house calls to the housebound and lazy. Some of those food-stamp IDs could end up stuck in garters and g-strings, though. So, never mind…

  140. “they have referred to multiple incidents of voter registration fraud which then leads to voter fraud.”

    Since the fraudulent registrations were discovered, the existing system works.

    Oh, and one more time, voter registration fraud is not the same thing as vote fraud. Try again.

  141. “the voting process should be cleaned up to the greatest extent possible, regardless of which “side” may be cheating.”

    STILL no evidence that vote fraud exists at sufficient levels to justify spending additional taxpayer dollars.

  142. “All I’m saying is that the voting process should be cleaned up to the greatest extent possible, regardless of which “side” may be cheating.”

    ROFL – that’s hysterically funny coming from the author of “Anything that will prevent Dems from stealing elections will MORE than pay for itself in taxpayer money not spent on zany programs…”

    Pardon me, but your hypocrisy is showing. Again.

  143. aislander says:

    I believe that ehill’s reluctance to spend funds to ensure that those who vote are entitled to do so may well be the first instance in recorded history in which a liberal has expressed a desire to save taxpayers’ money.

    Next must come the Rapture…

  144. aislander says:

    No hypocrisy. I’m opposed to zany conservative programs, too…

  145. SCORPION says:

    ehill – read for comprehension, I already said that voter registration and voter fraud are two different things.

    ”Since the fraudulent registrations were discovered, the existing system works.”

    So ehill, every single fraudulent registration was discovered, can you bet your ^insert whatever here^ that to be true… you can’t… Preventing fraudulent registration is one key to preventing voter fraud.

    There is little need to spend excessive amounts of money to (1) provide an opportunity for all to have some form of government issued ID and (2) use that ID to vote. The cost is minimal if any at all. In some cases a change of process might be all that is needed minimizing cost.

    It is indeed ironic that you are the protector of the taxpayer purse, humorous even…

  146. SCORPION says:

    oh yeah aislander – the ‘nos or one of the clones attempted a divide and conquer strategy…

    You too, I make an attempt but if off subject or ranting I ignore also.

  147. “oh yeah aislander – the ‘nos or one of the clones attempted a divide and conquer strategy…”

    Lighten up Francis!!!

    You guys are way too paranoid! Seek help.

  148. “Preventing fraudulent registration is one key to preventing voter fraud.”

    Looks like we already do a pretty good job of preventing fraudulent registration.

  149. “the ‘nos or one of the clones attempted a divide and conquer strategy…”

    Is sophomoric crap like this REALLY the way you want to go?

  150. SCORPION says:

    We do joke around mucky… but just not with you… Oh yeah, Candy, you know from Deja Vue, she says hello and can’t wait for you to tickle her keyboard.

    Broken record ehill with your post… Jasmin says hello to you

  151. Unless there’s some reason ONE side would like to be able to cheat…

    Historically Republicans do better when there is lower voter turn-out…..

  152. SCORPION says:

    “Two choices before you… respond to the 1:00 post or this one…”

    I presented this choice earlier and you chose to respond to the garbage with your own garbage…

    I, and others presented more ideas or solutions and the response was door number 2, the one with the brown stuff on it. Don’t act all rightous.

    Damn, I should have put on my pink latex outfit, got a nasty stain from all the slinging on me.

    ID’s work, we are not asking for anything that a good citizen should and could do.

  153. SCORPION says:

    “Historically Republicans do better when there is lower voter turn-out…”

    Maybe the Republicans care more about this country and/or the Democratic candidate didn’t promise enough goodies for the masses.

    Classic beerBoy

  154. “Maybe the Republicans care more about this country”

    OR

    Maybe the Republicans are just better at lying and cheating and deceiving the public than the other guys are!

    Classic Francis!

  155. aislander says:

    One of ‘em says we’re “too” paranoid. How paranoid is just right, Goldilocks?

    The other says to discuss things “like” an adult. So, that means you’re passing, right?

  156. ManuelMartini says:

    Why do all these people demanding ID for voting, use a “nom de plume” for commenting on these threads?

  157. Perhaps you really mean a nom de guerre, as I suspect, based on their writing style or lack of style, many of these “commenters” would never actually be considered “authors.”

    Using a fictitious name is the protocol of this forum.

    Using one’s real identity is the protocol for voting in an American election.

    I agree that some proof of identity should be required to vote, but when you consider the 100% Vote By Mail situation we have here in Washington, apparently proving who you are when voting is not a high priority to some.

  158. SCORPION – Occam’s Razor demands the simplest answer – in this case, there are less Republicans in the country is the simplest answer.

  159. A simpler answer, as per Occam’s Razor is: Republicans just like to cheat.

    They do it all the time. They are really good at it.

  160. ManuelMartini says:

    No, muckibr, I meant “no de plume”, aka “pen name”, but possibly your assertion would be even more appropriate. Everyone has a choice to use their real name or not.

    As to protocol for voting, it’s been working quite well without all these restrictions that REPUBLICANS are trying to enact.

    “Proof of ID” – one time, at registration seems fair, but that is not what is happening with the legislation. This is nothing short of creating chaos to eliminate voters.

    I again point out that when you have a district in Ohio that counted 2000 more voters for Bush than there were voters, the problem has nothing to do with ID.

    We championed the Iraqis that voted with a purple thumbprint and then are going to require our own citizens to get ID by providing ID that they don’t already have? Rather ironic, no?

  161. SCORPION says:

    one person = one vote is the goal. As far as I know it is hard to commit voter fraud if the standard on election day is to have the right index finger inked when one votes…

    Fast forward to the 21st century and the concept is still the same, one person, one vote. What is the accptable form of ‘purple finger’ a voter registration card… a single voter registration card.

    Can we combine the state id, drivers license and voter registration all in one card. Some issues to tackle but possible.

    The goal should be one person = one vote for all eligible voters. Why we are making it more difficult and finding more excuses than we need to is curious.

    You wanna do purple fingers… a little impractical but fine. It is simple yet relatively foolproof.

  162. Each state determines its’ own method of voting. In Washington state we have had Vote-By-Mail imposed on us. Is that the safe and secure solution to prevent voter fraud?

    What about all the renters who move to new location between election years and fail to file change of address cards. Who gets to use their ballots when the come in the mail?

    Sorry but a purple finger solution ain’t gonna fix that. Try again!

  163. “The other says to discuss things “like” an adult. So, that means you’re passing, right?”

    I haven’t called anyone “goldilocks”.

  164. aislander says:

    …only because sum_nos seems fixated on “Francis…”

  165. ManuelMartini says:

    Of course, “aislander” is “whosonfirst”.

  166. Well, then aislander must be LF, amJm, kpntrl and all those variations, and hey! Now that you mention it, and his obsession with who is who, I’ll bet, seriously, he’s probably responsible for some or a lot of those others. Plus, I’m surprised he doesn’t get the reference to “Francis”.

    Thinking about it though, there seem to be a lot or parallels between Voter Fraud and Screen Name Fraud here on this TNT blog. There’s a lot of frauds on these blogs, that’s for sure!

  167. “…only because sum_nos seems fixated on “Francis…””

    What a snappy comeback. You are TRULY an intellectual giant. LOL

  168. aislander says:

    Gee, MM, you REALLY must have done your research! For someone who hasn’t been on the forum all that long, you seem to know a lot about me. I’m impressed! Good thing there are no alts, huh?

    As for sum_nos, you apparently didn’t catch the discussion in which certain characteristics were cited as being typical of the worthies “sumner” and “KARDNOS,” and whenever those were encountered, the member would be referred to in that way–but only for the purpose of saving keystrokes, doncha know, not disparagement. Never!

    Can’t think of ANY reason I would have used the shorthand in this context, though…

  169. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Careful aislander, that is three examples of sharp ditchwater you are going up against… or is that two… or…

  170. alindasue says:

    And yet another thread is highjacked by the who’s-really-who crowd. Does it matter? We are here to debate issues, not pen names.

    Proving identity is one of the problems with by-mail voting, but there’s not much we can do about it except maybe switch to a system where everyone has to walk into a polling place to vote. Even if by-mail voting hadn’t been mandated state-wide, there’d still be the issue of all those absentee votes.

    I think that we just have to accept the fact that in order to allow all eligible voters a vote, we have to accept that a few “fraud” voters might slip in through the cracks. I suspect that the “fraud” isn’t limited to just one party or another and that it all pretty much balances out in the end.

  171. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    allindasue, speaking as someone who was forced to change his name here (once) I would still argue that it does matter that certain screen names, herein, are obvious aliases, and that a certain hijacker (especially) is such a troll that he is banned by the editors on a regular basis, thus hastening his constant drum beat of new aliases.

    But even more annoying and juvenile is the banter between, and validation and affirmation of a certain group of contributors, amongst themselves – many, if not all, of whom are likely the same individual.

    Yeah, I think most would agree that debating the issues with wallpaper hangers, aliases, phonies, hijackers, and trolls is pointless. After all, debate is not why they are here. Might as well expose them and save others – who might not be regulars – a few key strokes.

  172. A. Who is sum-nos?

    B. aislander, don’t you and Vox_clamato “banter” amongst yourselves and your buddy alts. all the time. Just want to make sure that what Vox_clamato accuses one side of doing he has to admit he also commits on his side.

    C. alindasue, I would guess that your view “we have to accept that a few “fraud” voters might slip in through the cracks. I suspect that the “fraud” isn’t limited to just one party or another and that it all pretty much balances out in the end.” is probably closer to REALITY than anything discussed on this topic so far. Good point!

  173. “As for sum_nos, you apparently didn’t catch the discussion in which certain characteristics were cited as being typical of the worthies “sumner” and “KARDNOS,” and whenever those were encountered, the member would be referred to in that way–but only for the purpose of saving keystrokes, doncha know, not disparagement. Never!”

    I missed it too I guess. Was that some of the “banter” that you, Vox_clamato and your other buddies on your side “bantered” about? Was that like the banter between you and Vox_clamato up-thread on this topic. Okay, never mind any of that.

    Would you mind sharing some of the explanation for myself and alindasue and others to bring us up-to-speed? Or is it secret stuff that you can’t share? Or maybe you’re just afraid to share it?

    Looking forward to reading your explanation.

    Thanks aislander!

    P.S. What do you mean by “the worthies”?

  174. aislander says:

    Perhaps the leftist worthies on this forum could find the answers to all their questions by looking up the noun “worthy” in the World English Dictionary. There’s a group picture of them next to the definition…

  175. aislander, too scared to explain it to us, huh?

    Okay, let’s get back to the issue of VOTING FRAUD, and leave this issue of posting frauds.

    Anyone have a problem with Washington state’s IMPOSED MANDATORY Vote By Mail process?

  176. took14theteam says:

    Yes

  177. Well, took14theteam, if your “Yes” is in reference to some issue you have with the Washington state Vote By Mail System, would you like to expound on that. (If you “Yes” is in reference to something else, would you care to elucidate on that?)

  178. aislander says:

    t14t: I understand completely. Good point!

  179. Good! With the two of you leaving this thread, then others may feel like discussing the topic. Buh bye took… and aisl…

    (took.. and aisl… kind of reminds me of Rizzoli & Isles, or even Cagney and Lacey)

  180. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Me too… or is that me two.

  181. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    “Vox_clamato”?

    Is that your hypocrisy showing again muck, or were you just the first one to ask “who cut the cheese”… again.

  182. Anyone have a problem with Washington state’s IMPOSED MANDATORY Vote By Mail process?

  183. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Asked and answered, muck – x 3. Please try to keep up.

  184. Does anyone, whose opinion matters, have a problem with Washington state’s IMPOSED MANDATORY “Vote By Mail” process?

    That is, besides alindasue who is the only person to comment on this issue so far.

    Thanks alindasue, but I kind of doubt that Washington state will ever go back to walk-in polling places now that Vote-By-Mail has been successfully forced upon us. Insuring the validity of mail-in absentee ballots is a touchy issue also, as regards voter fraud.

  185. “Vox_clamato”?

    …some people actually like Clamato.

    Could be worse. Here is one: vox chlamydia……

    Just riffing here – please don’t get mad.

  186. That’s OFF TOPIC beerBoy.

    But, since you mention it; I extend my sincere apologies to the Dr Pepper Snapple Group, the makers of Mott’s Clamato Juice Cocktail for any disservice I may have done their brand by marrying it up with vox_whatever. (We’ll just have to go with your variation on vox’s name from now on beerBoy.)

    Now, everybody, back ON TOPIC!!! Macht Schnell!

    What is “THE BIGGEST LIE” in VOTING anyway?

  187. davehill90 says:

    How do you think Al Frankin was elected? Just like with Queen Christine they count until they get a count in their favor – after stuffing yet more each time into the ballot box. Democrats during Gore and Kerry vs. Bush were only knowing what they were capable themselves – as they had their hissy fit about those elections. They like to count until it’s theirs. Panthers in PA are another example, along with Eric Holder and his corrupt non response – selective justice
    Oh yes, the good Democrats are just out to help us all… put them into absolute control of every aspect of our lives – as they point the finger of blame to that for which they are guilty of same

  188. Dave, recounts, as you have pointed out, can go either way.

    With Bush – Gore, the recount ended up in favor of the Republicans. Fact.

    With Franken, and with Gregoire, the recounts favored the Democrats. Fact.

    Some of the issues that may have led to those recounts were that charges were made of vote fraud, including people who were not allowed to vote or were somehow discouraged by possible coercion to not vote, and votes that came from people who may not have been eligible to vote.

    You cannot, in good conscience just point the finger at Democrats. Let’s be honest here. You and I both know that there are Republicans who are no angels in this regard as well.

    That’s what we are talking about here. By the time it gets to a recount the voter fraud has already occurred. How can we prevent that in the first place? If we can prevent voter fraud, then maybe there will be no need for recounts, you follow?

  189. ManuelMartini says:

    “Just like with Queen Christine they count until they get a count in their favor”

    Why do the conservatives ignore that they got a trial in a conservative county (Chelan) and lost their case?

  190. ManuelMartini says:

    “Panthers in PA are another example”

    Two black men standing at a polliing place is not voter fraud.

  191. ManuelMartini says:

    “speaking as someone who was forced to change his name here”

    Would that mean you were banned?

  192. Manuel, I don’t think you will get an answer to your last question. It looks to me like voxy_ and his associates took14theteam and aislander have left this thread to “banter” with each other on some other topic.

    As to his claim that there is at least one person who has been frequently banned and has had to change his screen name quite often, I was just wondering if he was referring to: LF, amJm, kpntrl, who may have also been some or possibly most of those other alts that popped-up and went away a while back. If so, I thought that guy (kpntrl) was one of their “bantering” buddies or maybe just their cheerleader. Why do you suppose voxy_ would throw him/her under the bus?

    Be that as it may, this is off topic, and I apologize to others for that.

    But, I still would like one of those guys to explain what the heck they mean by the name sum_nos? I get the nos part, as that refers to their former nemesis kardnos, who apparently hurt them very badly at some point. But, what is the sum_ part? Where is that from?

    I know aislander thinks I am sum_nos, but aislander has been so wrong on so many things, I just don’t see how aislander has any credibility left with anyone on these blogs on any side of the issues or even on the off topic rants.

    This thread discussion may be totally exhausted by now, so maybe it’s just time to move on and see what voxy_, aislander, took14theteam and the rest of their gang is bantering about now.

    Movin’ on!

  193. took14theteam says:

    Just sitting back and watching the spectacle that has become this site….

  194. took14theteam, would you mind explaining the stuff about the sum_ in sum_nos, and what Vox_ (I think it was him or aislander) meant by the shortcuts or fewer keystrokes of whatever to refer to some people here. Because I read it, and see it, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    I know LF, amjm, kpntrl has changed his screen name numerous times, and I can guess why, but what of the other?

  195. fanciladi says:

    Looks like Michael L. Bowler, the writer has his head in the clouds (want to be PC) on this subject.

    What about those who have already pleaded guilty to voter fraud…and the others who are being prosecuted!

    Voter fraud is a fact…not ‘A Big Lie’…it happens and I feel strongly about it and we all should…it lessens the value of each of our votes!!!

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