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POLITICIANS: Fire all of them

Letter by Dan J. Hammarsten, Eatonville on Dec. 27, 2011 at 2:20 pm with 300 Comments »
December 27, 2011 2:20 pm

Why do we keep electing the same people who have spent this state into the toilet? Why do we tolerate putting criminals back on the streets because the jails are overcrowded and insanely expensive? Why have we put up with turning traffic patrol officers into tax collectors? Why do we mindlessly accept tolls on roads we use to go down freely because the clowns in Olympia have spent road money on everything but roads? Why are we allowing bureaucrats and politicians to deny people in pain pills so they can soften the financial blow of up coming Obama care instead of fighting this nonsense? Why do allow them to drive the cost of a carton of cigarettes to $100 with taxes? Either outlaw cigarettes or tax them at a fair rate.
I do not want someone in Olympia or D.C. to tell me what kind of toilet, light bulb, car or fast food I can have. It is time to fire everyone. As well, it is time for them to live in the same liberal hell they have created for us.

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  1. hansgruber says:

    Because we elect them.

  2. Dan – are we starting with John Boeher and the Republican majority?

  3. old_benjamin says:

    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of governement. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. old_benjamin says:

    last time I looked, the Democrats controlled the senate and the presidency. That’s two-thirds of the elected federal guvment by my calculation – a majority by most folk’s definition. Reid and Obama would be a good start.

  5. Who controls the budget?

  6. “Why do allow them to drive the cost of a carton of cigarettes to $100 with taxes? Either outlaw cigarettes or tax them at a fair rate.”

    Being a non-smoker, my idea of a “fair rate” would be $500 a carton.

  7. old_benjamin says:

    What budget?

  8. “liberal hell”?

    I would say very Conservative driven hell brought on by, (Are you guys on the RIGHT ready for it?) eight years of bungled mismanagement of our country headed by GEORGE W. BUSH who got us involved in two UNFUNDED wars, with NO EXIT STRATEGY for either. Thanks to the GEORGE W. BUSH years the world’s economy went into the toilet and now the current administration has to find a way to fix it.

    CONSERVATIVE HELL my friend!

  9. old_benjamin says:

    muck, you forget a little problem called the collapse of the housing bubble. Bush tried to reform Fannie and Freddie but was stonewalled by Barney Frank, Chris Dodds and a coterie of Democrats who pushed home ownership for all. No job or assets required. Like all Democrat boondoggles, it blew up in Obama’s face. The current administration is clueless about how to fix it, as the last three years have shown. Hell is four more years of the community organizer form South Chicago.

  10. When some can’t see the problem for the party they support we will never find a solution.

    And we are about to extend the debt ceiling by another 1.2 trillion dollars so we can further erode our quality of life.

  11. old_ben I didn’t forget the housing bubble, which was caused as much by deregulation of the banks, promoted by REPUBLICANS, going as far back a Phil Gramm (R) (former Texas Senator, from another small town in Texas missing its village idiot) working as a lobbyist for United Bank Of Switzerland and many others who created Mortgage Backed Securities, which is what really brought the world economies crashing down all around us.

    President Obama is fixing those problems, slowly but surely, and will be able to do so much faster and better after he is re-elected.

  12. Soundlife says:

    I honestly can not see a clear difference from the politicians of either party.
    Also, when I hear people speaking of their support to one of these “elected crooks,” I always here a clarification: “he/she is not exactly what I want, but is better than the others.”
    That my friends is what got us into this mess.
    Choosing the “lessor of two evils still gets you plenty of evil.”

  13. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    I nominate Mr. Dan J. Hammarsten for the BEST LETTER TO THE EDITOR AWARD for 2011.

    Thanks for telling everyone out there how the silent majority feels. My prayer is that in 2012 we start taking back this country from the liberal elite socialist that are destroying the America I fought for.

    We will either take it back or they will run out of your money soon. Voters will make that call in November 2012.

  14. So the GOP Majority in the House of Representatives hasn’t gotten a budget done yet?

    Amazing, they had time for so many other things like “In God We Trust” and the likes, I can’t understand why a budget wouldn’t be priority number 1.

    taxedenough – You must have your glasses on backwards. The House of Representative, where legislation is supposed to begin, is a majority of Republicans, allegedly conservative.

  15. Except for that Bulltwaddle about Obamacare, and that Horsehocky about “liberal hell” I’d say it is a pretty good series of questions that somebody should seriously answer.

    It’s NOT the best letter of 2011, but it’s okay.

    And BTW, as an ex-smoker, they can tax cigarettes as much as they want to. It is, after all, a voluntary tax just like Lottery Tickets. If you don’t want to pay it, don’t buy ‘em. I just wish they would quit lying to us about how they are raising taxes on smokes because they are concerned about our health. What a load of HooHah!

  16. Bejamin – you must recall that the Wall Street Crash was in September of 2008.

    The Housing Bubble didn’t just start up in 2007 when the Democrats took the majority of the House. From 2001 through 2006 the GOP controlled the House, Senate and Administration.

    With that thought in mind, how would Frank and Dodd have so much alleged power?

    Someone has been reading the FOX ticker entirely too much.

  17. LibertyBell says:

    Actually,

    If we had Grant, he could shoot them all!

    During his campaign for re-election in 1872, Grant was attacked by Liberal Republican reformers. He called them “narrow-headed men,” their eyes so close together that “they can look out of the same gimlet hole without winking.” The General’s friends in the Republican Party came to be known proudly as “the Old Guard.”

  18. LibertyBell says:

    During his campaign for re-election in 1872, Grant was attacked by Liberal Republican reformers. He called them “narrow-headed men,” their eyes so close together that “they can look out of the same gimlet hole without winking.” The General’s friends in the Republican Party came to be known proudly as “the Old Guard.”

  19. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    RW and other libs, the house did pass a budget. It died at the senate and they refuse to vote on it. The people spoke and the kings in the senate said, “let them eat cake” and went home.

    do your homework!!!

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/paul-ryans-budget-proposal-passes-house-democrats-medicare/story?id=13384520

  20. Just to be fair, you may want to check your selective memories RW and muckibr. Democrats ran both houses for how long? And don’t forget who was in charge of both houses before, during, and after. Repubs have only controlled one branch for less than a year.

    We get the ‘Bush was an idiot’ mantra.

  21. Hmmmm? Republican Congressman and current nearly leading Presidential Candidate Ron Paul voted against that Paul Ryan budget proposal. What does that mean???

    “The people spoke”? No, the Republicans in congress spoke, all but 4 anyway, and none of the congressional Democrats voted for it. “The people” did NOT speak. Only The Republicans, most but not all, spoke. Seems like it must have been a real partisan budget, wity no Republican room for any compromise, as usual!

    That all goes to cause me to have even more respect for Ron Paul!

  22. amjim – is this one of those situations were you’ll drift back in history until it suits you? Sort of like “Bush isn’t President anymore/Clinton had an affair with Lewinsky”

    I’d say that a snapshot of the decade 2000-2009 is a fair assessment and during that time, the GOP controlled the house, senate and executive branches for 60% of the time.

    I don’t know where you get the “one branch less than one year”

    taxedenough – so what you’re saying is that Paul Ryan’s budget wouldn’t sell and they gave up? I’d say that the Senate didn’t want to take Ryan’s idea of wiping out Medicare to their constituents. Maybe someone was listening for a change.

  23. amjim, YOU REALLY NEED TO CHECK YOUR FACTS before you post stuff.

    George W. Bush was elected in November 2001, and began his first term in January 2001

    2001, the 107th Congress; The Senate was evenly split 50/50, and the house was controlled by Republicans with a 221 majority

    2003, the 108th Congress, both the Senate and House controlled by Republicans.

    2005, the 109th Congress, both the Senate and House controlled by Republicans.

    2007, the 110th Congress, both Senate and House controlled by Democrats, only because Independent Senator Sanders caucuses with Dems.

    Barack H. Obama was elected in November 2008 and began his first term in January 2009

    2009, the 111th Congress, both Senate and House controlled by Democrats, because Independent Senator Sanders caucuses with Dems., and there were two vacancies in the Senate due to disputed election results.

    2011, the 112th Congress, NOW/CURRENT, Senate controlled by Democrats, House controlled by Republicans.

    Summary: Bush had two full terms of congress when both houses were controlled by the Republican Party. Obama has only had one term of congress where both house were controlled by Democrats.

    http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm

  24. SCORPION says:

    As far as the budget is concerned as Harry Reid why he won’t let the budget come to floor for a debate.

  25. muckibr – and don’t forget when the Senate is a 50/50 split, the VP (in said case Cheney) has the deciding vote.

  26. ReadNLearn says:

    Well gee…

    Voting doesn’t work in Washington State…they just kept counting and adding votes for the governor until there was finally a count in her favor and she declared victory.

    Even Chicago doesn’t pull stuff like that and neither does Tehran.

  27. ctdrules says:

    You can’t argue with liberals ’cause its a mental disease. They love to see folks on the dole, more the merrier. Spend what you don’t have and always, always blame someone else for your problems. You find them in both parties and, of course, here in the comment section of the TNT. What a waste.

  28. ctdrules – We find YOU here in this TNT comment section too! What does that say about YOU?

  29. I’m just asking you apply the same standard RW and muckibr.
    We have had less than 1 year of republican control of one house. Prior to that, we had 4 years of democrat control of both houses and 2 of those years with a democrat president. Currently, the dems control one house and the presidency.

    When did this recession start ?

  30. Soundlife says:

    The best we can ever hope for seems to be divided government, ideally with the president from one party and both houses of Congress controlled by the opposition.
    We had this miracle in the 80’s under Reagan, and during the 90’s under Clinton. Amazingly our economy flourished as both parties kept each other in check.
    Our worst times have come under single party rule, regardless of the party as we saw during Bush II and Obama’s first two years.
    I do not trust the blabbering fools of either party to have the interest of our nation at heart. They are all about power and grabbing even more power for themselves, their party and their supporters.

  31. When did this recession start ?

    Easy answer: This recession started at the end of the second term of George W. Bush, as a direct result of actions that were taken during the two terms of George W. Bush. President Obama inherited this recession from George W. Bush.

    Next question!

  32. Looks like most of you commenters are either City,County,State,or Federal employees. Go Liberals!!

  33. bobcat1a says:

    Thanks for telling everyone out there how the silent majority feels.” -taxedenoughintacoma
    Please tell us who appointed you spokesman for the silent majority, and if they’re silent, how did you figure out what they think. Isn’t “silent majority” just a euphemism for what YOU believe?

    \

  34. Soundlife says:

    My point exactly.
    Bush had a Republican Congress and Republican Senate; he spend money like a drunken sailor (my appologies to my Navy brothers; however, you do make for a great analogy) and his misguided policies led to the recession.
    In steps Obama with Democrats controlling the House and Senate, again, insane spending with no results.
    We have spent $Trillions but have not repaired any major infrastructure. The money was wasted on efforts to temporarily fund many states with budget problems, simply growing the coming crisis.
    We must have divided government

  35. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Hey muck- funny that in an earlier thread you credited Bush for the exit date from Iraq, now he has no exit strategy. Which is it?

    Truth is dems are out of control and the public sees it, proof being 2010.

    1.2tril more to the debt, and BHO doesn’t care. More money for his little people.

    We need to look at what made us great, and progressive policies and following Europe are not the answer.

  36. Bush committed U.S. troops to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. He did not have an exit strategy of set a withdrawal date until November 17, 2008 when the Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari and U.S. ambassador Ryan Crocker signed the U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement that set the withdrawal of forces date as December 31, 2011.

    That’s over 5 years of war without knowing how he planned to end it.

    Apparently somebody is not up on his/her current events!

  37. “Voting doesn’t work in Washington State…they just kept counting and adding votes for the governor until there was finally a count in her favor and she declared victory.”

    The Conservative judge of Conservative Chelan County disagreed.

  38. klthompson says:

    It matters little as to who did what in the past when those in the present seem disinclined or incapable of fixing the problems.

  39. took14theteam says:

    RW_nos, I take back the complement I gave you last night. Oh wait, you flagged it so I don’t have to take it back….

  40. aislander says:

    old_benjamin: Mortgage-backed securities would not have been a problem if the mortgages in question had been sound. Government created the problem by strong-arming the banks into making substandard loans. For an excellent exposition on Fannie, Freddie, Frank, Dodd, Carter, Clinton, and, yes, Bush (although he, at least, tried to rein in the problem), and other governmental villains, and the private ones, too, I HIGHLY recommend Robert M. Hardaway’s book, The Great American Housing Bubble: The Road to Collapse.

    It lays to rest any assertion that government didn’t play a role–a big role–in the bubble and subsequent collapse…

  41. O-B
    No one controls the Senate unless they control 60 votes.

    Kooky how Dubu could get us into two unnecessary, ruinously expensive wars, but could not reform Fred & Fanny.

    The Rpots are clueless and insane for advocating a return to Bush’s slash taxes on the rich, spend the country into near bankruptcy, and borrow form foreign governments and organizations to keep the country afloat.

    Nook – if the Rpots would work for the good of the Country and not just to make the rich richer, we would not need a rise in the debt ceiling.

    Soundlife – ‘not exactly what I want” Ain’t that the truth. I have probably voted against a candidate more than I have voted for a candidate.

    Taxed –only a jack-booted, locked stepping,blimd-deaf-n-dumb Fascist thug would see the enemy who is destroying America as ‘liberal elite socialists’

    The only reason the Ryan Plan passed the house was because republicans always vote in a block for Rpot bills.

    The Ryan plan was not a budget but a plan to destroy the country under the guise of saving it.

  42. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Muck, Bush started it based on an intelligence machine he did not create and set an end date, which he achieved after defeating the challenging insurgency (by listening to his generals).

    What were you saying again? You were being hypocritical, and tried to deflect. Please try again.

    Either way it does nothing to make BHO’s policies it his 90 games of golfing/leadership any better.

    1.2 trillion paid for by taxpayers is OK to you as long as you are not one of them? We are over 16 trillion in debt (soon, under BHO’s excuse of a budget) with no end in sight. This is not Keynes, but a deliberate default. Why else would a man who cares for the nation push such spending?

    Well, given that BHO is 1% and he said it will not effect his kids, I guess it is ok to the followers.

  43. aislander says:

    xring writes: “only a jack-booted, locked stepping,blimd-deaf-n-dumb Fascist thug would see the enemy who is destroying America as ‘liberal elite socialists’”

    You’re apparently not one of the cadre of sensitive lefties who objects to “gratuitous insults,” are you? Never mind.

    The person you describe would see that image in his own mirror, since fascism is a socialist movement (as you should well know by now. Shouldn’t you?)…

  44. elmerfudpucker says:

    I keep laughing at all of you yelling Dems this, Reps that. When are you idiot’s going to realize that they are two sides of the same worthless coin! The only thing they worry about is staying in office and getting paid. THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU! If the lips are moving they are lying!

  45. menopaws says:

    What a whiner….it’s hard to work up any sympathy for someone with the perpetual whine. Hate to be his wife.

  46. gowenray says:

    Oh boy! All these comments again point out that Pogo was right!
    “We has met the enemy and they is us!”

  47. aislander says:

    menopaws: Your last post reminds me of some things that Lady Astor and Winston Churchill are supposed to have said to one another. Pretty funny stuff…

  48. harleyrider1 says:

    Americans have created and allowed what they have over a long period of time by allowing their Union, their friends, and other to tell them who to vote for. It changed from electing the best person, to electing the party’s candidate. Party – jut like Russia. Both parties have good and bad people; both parties are single minded and neither are perfect or have every solution right.

    We need to return to Country first, party second. Forget the party, don’t allow your union to tell you who to vote for or not vote for. Take a few minutes and decide for yourself who will do their best for the Country – not the party.

  49. Read N Learn says, “Well gee…Voting doesn’t work in Washington State…they just kept counting and adding votes for the governor until there was finally a count in her favor and she declared victory. Even Chicago doesn’t pull stuff like that and neither does Tehran”

    Boy! If THAT isnt the truth. I know people on the other side of the country who tell me what a joke this State is! We have allowed liars and crooks and liberal whackjobs to turn this State into a laughing stock on par with California!!

    As far as recounting and adding imaginary votes, I wouldnt be one bit surprised that our elected officials, when they were kids playing board games, would slide the whole thing off the table to a crashing end when the saw they were loosing!!

  50. SCORPION says:

    I do agree with you in principle harleyrider. All indications are that this will be the nastiest polictical campaign yet for the Presidency, Congress, 1/3 of the Senate and the numerous state and local elections.

    Groups are already vieing for your attention as they try to get their message across. They will come from many different perspectives all with one goal, to keep this ‘progressive’ agenda moving along.

    Unions specifically have learned to take advantage of the Citizens United case and have created SuperPacs that have been tested in WI and Ohio with some success.

    OWS is another movement that is one to watch as masses of people ‘occupy’ with little direction as to a specific, measurable goal of the movement.

    Country First… sadly that means vastly different things to many people and the demonstrated means to that end is the coming conflict that will play out in the run up to the 2012 election.

  51. WTraveler says:

    “Boy! If THAT isnt the truth. I know people on the other side of the country who tell me what a joke this State is!”

    Yeah, and I know people on this side of the country that say people on the east side of the country are the cause of the national election of 2000 bringing in Texas’s village idiot and Mr. Personality, Cheney, and “General” Rummy that started the fall of this great nation.

  52. Why? Well just look at the comments. I am pretty sure everyone will agree the system is pretty screwed up and there are absolute changes needed but, because any conversation about the criminal miss-management by the elected officials results in mud slinging from the general voting public defending their party, things will never change. The politicians have us right where they want us and will say anything that will rally party members to come to their defense and overt attention to other issues. The political ruling class is the true 1%, they are the ones who have passed legislation they do not have to follow and they have given big corporations their ability to be the evil monsters the occupy crowd claims they are by attaching the loopholes and pork to the laws they pass. A little campaign funding can go a long way, especially to a politician that has tenure.

  53. I’ll take Washington over Wisconsin as my choice of state anyday. We haven’t sold our state to the Koch Brothers.

  54. You can say what you want about Washington state (and if you really don’t like it here you can always leave, please) and say what you like about our current Democratic governor, but it is a fact that it is a REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR in WISCONSIN who is being recalled.

    Now, is that a fact or is it not?

  55. concernedtacoma7 says:

    And what does that have to do with WA?

  56. old_benjamin says:

    Aislander, I got a copy of Hardaway’s book just recently. It confirms what Thomas Sowell had to say in his book and even much of what the leftist Robert Scheer had to say in is book about the housing debacle. No doubt there will be more, and there can be no doubt the government supplied the gun the folks used to shoot themselves in the head.

  57. aislander says:

    old_benjamin: I wonder if the truth of the matter has begun to infiltrate the fever swamps. In past, any hint that the government pressured the banks to make bad loans elicited an immediate negative response from certain prominent lefties on this board…

  58. And what does that have to do with WA?

    Simply this: The topic of this thread is “POLITICIANS: Fire all of them”

    That is happening in Wisconsin, with a Republican Governor who is in the process of being fired via statewide recall.

    Someone above this comment said Washington state is a joke to the folks back east. But our Democratic Governor is not being fired, is she? A couple of others wrote that voting in Washington is a joke because they just kept recounting the votes until the Democrat won.

    (The courts stepped in on that situation, in a similar manner as the Supreme Court stepped in on the Gore-Bush vote recount in Florida, correct? So whats the difference?)

    Facts are facts. Our Democratic Governor is serving out her full term, without recall. Wisconsin may not be able to say that. Where does voting work? Which state is the real joke?

    It looks to me like things in Washington state are working just fine, al things considered. What is the joke? I don’t get it.

    Bottom line: If you really don’t like Washington state politics, no one is keeping you here against your will. You can leave anytime. Please leave if you wish. And say “Hi!” to my cousin in Madison, WI if you get up that way.

  59. headedsouth says:

    We need to start with the politicians that keep getting elected locally in Pierce County!! We are back to being the armpit of the Puget Sound thanks to those in local leadership on the Tacoma City Council and Pierce County Council!!!

  60. “you forget a little problem called the collapse of the housing bubble. Bush tried to reform Fannie and Freddie but was stonewalled by Barney Frank, Chris Dodds and a coterie of Democrats”

    The GOP had majorities in both Houses of Congress at the time, so please explain how the Democrats could stop a determined effort by the GOP to pass such a reform.

  61. SCORPION says:

    whining…

    demogauging…

    fillabuster…

    pretty much in that order.

  62. Oh Scorpion, come on! EVERYONE IN THE WORLD knows that the Republicans used the filibuster to block more legislation in the past two Senates than it has ever been used by any party in the entire history of the U.S. Senate.

    You really have to try to be honest about stuff like that. Please!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/01/analysis-republicans-sett_0_n_480801.html

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/02/12/84487/senate-republicans-filibuster.html

    http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/chart-day-republicans-and-filibuster

  63. fbergford says:

    After reading the majority of these comments all I have to say is that we have a bunch of freakin yahoos that are blind to their political party! If you can’t find fault within your own political party YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! We can’t move forward if you keep looking back! I see this on both sides…JRKIII said it best! I don’t see how trying to rip on someone’s political affiliation to be proactive…I guess I’m crazy for not blindly following our elected officials and “trusting” them…by the way it was Jefferson who said never trust the government…

  64. Who is JRKIII?

  65. SCORPION says:

    “The GOP had majorities in both Houses of Congress at the time, so please explain how the Democrats could stop a determined effort by the GOP to pass such a reform.”

    The was the question asked, my answer is posted above. I was not asked to do a comparison nor a contrast to the GOP. My response there would be not a whole lot of whining, not much demagouging but very effective at fillibusting.

    Looking at the legislation I would probably fillabuster quite a few of them too.

  66. Then you must agree that The Republican Party of the last few years has been the biggest users and abusers of the filibuster and cloture vote process than anyone in the entire history of The United States Senate.

    For the Democrats to occasionally use their same tactics against them seems only fair, wouldn’t you agree?

    But. it is still a plain and obvious fact that The Republicans used filibuster and cloture to block far more legislation than the Democrats.

    The true obstructionists in the U.S. Senate have been and still are The Republican members. True? True!

  67. Aislander,
    Let’s save some blame for Wall Street that sold the securities as primo investments when they knew that they were junk at best.
    The role played by government in this mess is the abdication of the duty to enforce regulations that would have prevented, or at least slowed the meltdown.
    You’re right I don’t turn the other cheek, and you’re still total uninformed of the about what Fascism is (as opposed to what it used to claim to be), along with a lot of other things you mistakenly consider your forte.
    Dcr –‘slide the whole thing off the table to a crashing end’ is exactly what the Rpots are willing to do when they don’t get their way.
    The Rpots also are quick to blame others for what they themselves do, such as election fraud.

    Scorpion,
    the Senate is part of Congress. So the 2012 election will be for the Presidency, the HOUSE, and 1/3 of the Senate.
    Unions/Super Pacs – again the Rpots are blaming others for stealing a page out of the neocons playbook. Also consider this- it is not illegal for unions to donate to political candidates and parties and therefore have no need for superpacs.

    Muckibr – have you heard how Snot Walker is complaining of Fox about all those high priced attack adds trying to influence the recall?
    The rest of the story is that the only ads being run are pro-Walker!

    Aislander and old-ben,
    The banks did not complain about the enforced loans because they knew they would make billions on them.

    Ehill – and isn’t it kooky how Bush could get congress to go along with his war plans but could not reform F&F?

  68. SCORPION says:

    wow xring, you really didn’t grasp what I wrote so you found the need to correct me. OK, thanks…

  69. fbergford says:

    @muck…JRKIII posted a comment at 829 this morning

  70. SCORPION says:

    Nice lead in verbage and very nice on the word usage, ‘occasionally’ very nice.

    If you are a Dem then the GOP blocked.

    If you are a GOPer, then the Dems proposed crappy legislation and you patriotically blocked bad legislation.

    We could provide all kinds of partisan rhetoric if you like… well you can. But take a look at the legislation blocked and you will probably find flaws in it, it was proposed solely to generate a talking point, or it was proposed with the intention to have the opposing party block the legislation and then you can call them baby haters or whatever.

  71. SCORPION says:

    By the way olde Nancy ‘I just stay in a 10k a night bungalow in Hawaii’ Pelosi pass a record amount of legislation and good olde Harry Reid said nyet, no, neign, nope… to most of it.

    Dem to Dem that must have been really, really crappy legislation if Harry wouldn’t put his name to it.

    Just a lowly TNT board opinion.

  72. Thank you fbergford!

  73. commoncents says:

    Had those securities been appropriately rated (near junk) there would not have been a demand for them in the investment community and thus muted the demand for more loans at the bottom…lower demand = higher scrutiny=fewer bad loans.

    There are so many people to blame in this debacle – the greed was rampant from top to bottom. Pointing the finger only at one segment as the cause is a bit much.

  74. fbergford, I do think I can go along with you and JRKIII. Very valid points that the problems are in both parties, not just the one or the other. Would you agree that all incumbents should be voted out of office this next election?

  75. SCORPION says:

    Best analogy to the mortgage debacle was provided by a poster a while back…

    The government provided the gun, Fannie/Freddie provided the bullets and the consumer shot themselves in the head.

    Lots of blame to go around here.

  76. And don’t forget that the big banks and trading houses collected up all those bad mortgage loans, and from them created the Financial WMDs (called Mortgage Backed Securities) that blew the crap out of the economies of countries around the world, including this one! BA BOOM!!!!

  77. Scorpion,
    Here’s another correction – all those bills based when Pelosi was Speaker of the House, were blocked in the Senate by Republican Filibusters.

    Both the gun and the ammo were provided by Wall Street with funding and encouragement from the Banks and Credit Lenders.

    ‘Lots of blame’ and just like with profit and risk, Wall Street, the Bankers, and the Credit Lenders want to take the money and let the public have the blame.

  78. WAIT! “The government provided the gun, Fannie/Freddie provided the bullets and the consumer shot themselves in the head.”

    That’s wrong isn’t it?

    Fannie & Freddie did not initiate loans, subprime or otherwise right? Those loans were initiated between the banks and mortgage loan companies. Fannie & Freddie simply purchased the loans AFTER they were made by the banks and mortgage companies.

    But the banks and MLCs then packaged those loans as WMDs (Mortgage Backed Securities) and sold them at hugely inflated prices. Some of which ended up at Lehman Brothers, others with Barclays, AIG or Fannie & Freddie and many more.

    You just cannot dump all the blame on Fannie & Freddie for that part of it. That would be completely DISHONEST to do so.

  79. SCORPION says:

    The government enabled this stuff. If they had not reduced the requirements, etc… then blah, blah, blah. Dont’ you get tired of rewriting history.

    You can blame the banks, sure they are a-holes. I got no problem with that. But what they did appears to have been legal. Doesn’t make it right but the consumer did not have their arm twisted to walk into a bank for a loan on a house.

    If Fannie and Freddie were dumb enough to buy the securities then they deserve to be defunded, disbanded and let the market work as it had in the past before the bubble. Get the government out of this stuff they are not needed.

  80. aislander says:

    Again: There would have been no collapse if the mortgages underlying the securities were sound. That they were not sound is completely the fault of the Federal government.

    xring writes: “The role played by government in this mess is the abdication of the duty to enforce regulations that would have prevented, or at least slowed the meltdown.”

    If you really believe that, xring, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Read a book, for God’s sake!

  81. aislander says:

    There are those on this forum who allege that my mind is not open, xring. In the spirit of opening it, I thirst to learn what the formerly-socialistic “ideology” of fascism has become, and how that relates to limited-government American conservatism.

    (I put ideology in quotation marks because some political scientists aver that fascism has no set ideology; that it is government doing anything it wants to do.)

  82. old_benjamin says:

    Barney Frank, September 2003, in response to Republican legislation attempting to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie.

    “I want to begin by saying that I am glad to consider the legislation, but I do not think we are facing any kind of a crisis. That is, in my view, the two government sponsored enterprises we are talking about here, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not in a crisis. We have recently had an accounting problem with Freddie Mac that has led to people being dismissed, as appears to be appropriate. I do not think at this point there is a problem with a threat to the Treasury.

    The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disastrous scenarios. And even if there were a problem, the Federal Government doesn’t bail them out. But the more pressure there is there, then the less I think we see in terms of affordable housing.”

  83. Trouble is, we allow the passengers to steer the ship. People who pay little or no income tax vote for people who promise them a cut of someone else’s pie. This never actually happens, of course, 99% of the rich guy’s taxes simply grease the palms of of the bureaucracy, but it makes people feel warm and cozy if they think that some rich guy got shaken down. Of course, there’s reasons why people pay little or no taxes, and it’s not because they’re rocket scientists. The logical answer would be having a votes’ value tied to income tax’s sliding scale, but politicians would never pass a law threatening their re-election.

  84. aislander says:

    The government is an organization made up of people. Why lefties have such touching faith in THAT organization, I have no idea.

    The fact is that, if you put your trust in government, you are, like Blanche Du Bois, depending on the kindness of strangers. People in government have absolutely nothing beyond that to ensure they operate in the public’s best interests.

    I have said before that self interest (NOT selfishness) is a much more dependable mechanism for ensuring rectitude than is love of mankind or fear of punishment. Some on this forum seem not to believe that…

  85. Scoprion,
    Fred & Fanny bought some sub-prime loans.

    Mortgage lenders bundled the reaming loans and put them out as ‘Mortgage Back Securities’ which Wall Street were junk or worse, but picked them up anyway, rated them AAA (top rating), and sold them to investors.

    Aislander – at least I can read a book. In fact as of today, I’ve read 68 books during the past year. How many tea-stained comic books have been read to you this year?

    As I’ve told you many times, Modern Day Fascism is considered an extreme right wing, dictatorial, political system that believes the Central Government must control all of society down to and including what kind of health care is to be provided.

    The myth of small government is not, and never has been found in Fascism, just as it is not found in most of today’s neocons.

  86. aislander says:

    Well, thanks for making my point, xring. Fascism is not right wing in the American sense…

  87. aislander says:

    “Is considered,” xring? By whom, and with what substantiation? I have Mussolini’s own words declaring himself a socialist. What do you have? At most, fascism is the right wing of the left, and has nothing to do with American conservatism. I think you’ll have to come up with some new directions, since right and left don’t seem to mean anything to you…

    That fourth paragraph of your 5:56 PM post describes the Obama administration quite well, by the way.

  88. Muckibr,
    Bush never had an exit strategy because he did not plan to leave Iraq. Thank a Middle East version of South Korea.

    Everyone knows about republican use of the filibuster, except the zombie base.

    Aislander – American Conservatism is not small government, and has not been since Goldwater.

  89. aislander says:

    How dare YOU define American conservatism for ME! Damned cheek…

  90. aislander says:

    Conservatism is not defined by the Republican Party. Many people run as conservatives in order to get elected, including a good number of Dems–most Dems running for national office in fact (or they define themselves ambiguously as with Obama)–but then govern as statists.

    If a person doesn’t govern according to conservative principles, then he’s not a conservative, no matter what he or his enemies call him.

  91. xring, I think you are probably correct about Bush’s original intentions for Iraq. As far as the filibuster thing, there is a lot of denial out there in rightyland over that.

    Hang in there xring!!!

  92. xring, I found the following on the Wikipedia page about Fascism, and thought it might help to clarify the issue here. However, further description does also say it could be considered left or centrist in some views, but the core of the argument still seems to indicate that Fascism is primarily a Right-Wing Political Philosophy.

    Position in the political spectrum
    Fascism is commonly described as “extreme right”[40][41]

    Fascism is often considered right-wing due to its social conservatism and authoritarian means of opposing egalitarianism.[43] [44] Robert Stackleberg places fascism — including Nazism, which he says is “a radical variant of fascism” — on the right, explaining that “the more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be.”[45]

    The original Italian Fascists described fascism as a right-wing ideology in the political program The Doctrine of Fascism, stating: “We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the ‘right,’ a fascist century.”[20][21] Mussolini, however, also said that the objective of Fascism was to strike “against the backwardness of the right and the destructiveness of the left”[46][47] and stated that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

  93. here’s the Mussolini quote that comes after: “[47] and stated that:”

    Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center … These words in any case do not have a fixed and unchanged meaning: they do have a variable subject to location, time and spirit. We don’t give a damn about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words.[48]

  94. aislander says:

    God, I’m tired of this argument. Mussolini was an international socialist right up to the point that he became a national one. That does not make fascism anything but the right wing of the left, self-described as right only to differentiate itself from the communists, against whom the fascists were competing for the same constituency.

    Fascists were a revolutionary force in Italy. Does the phrase “revolutionary conservatives” make any sense whatsoever?

    The Founders described the ideological spectrum in these terms: The right extreme is anarchy; the left extreme is complete governmental control of all aspects of society. ALL statist regimes are, therefore, of the left.

    If you doubt that, please describe the stark differences between Stalin’s Russia and Hitler’s Germany–and rationales don’t count; methods do.

  95. xring, I did a search to find the Traditional Political Spectrum and found that most examples show the following:

    Left vs. Right
    Traditional Political Spectrum

    Anarchism—- Communism —- Socialism —- Liberalism—-
    Far left ——————LEFT———————Center

    —-Conservatism —- Monarchism —- Nazism —- Fascism
    Center ——————RIGHT——————Far Right

    (BTW, Liberalism is represented by the Democratic Donkey and Conservatism represented by Republican Elephant)

    However, in my search it looks as if there are a great many people and organizations out there trying very desperately to redefine the political spectrum to suit their own needs, like some here on this thread are attempting also.

    But, the representation above is the TRADITIONAL POLITICAL SPECTRUM most of us were taught in history and civics classes.

  96. SCORPION says:

    aislander – this is like the 3rd or 4th time this thingy has come up. All indications are that this is ‘a running dispute among scholars about where along the left/right spectrum that fascism resides’ and it is used by the progressives to distract and demonize the right. You position has been clearly laid out and has validity. This is nothing more than an attempt to demonize the right and they argue from that position.

    Heck I read and re-read the introductory section to the Wikipedia post and have no clue where on the spectrum of left or right it is. I can say definitively that Fascism is not a Conservative principle in any way shape or form. That is key point to me.

    ”Fascism opposes class-based identity and society, it is thus both anti-bourgeois and anti-proletarian; and individualist based identity and society.[12] It opposes liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being class-based movements.[13] Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that advocates resolving economic class conflict to secure national solidarity.[14] It is opposed to many ideologies, including conservatism, liberalism, and two major forms of socialism: communism and social democracy.[15] It opposes a variety of economic, political and social systems, it is opposed to democracy, parliamentary systems, is in most cases inherently anti-clerical, and holds a distinctive opposition to capitalism.[16] It rejects egalitarianism, materialism, and rationalism in favour of action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit and will.[17] “

    How the heck do you know what a fascist is when they, according to the papers I read, damn near OPPOSE everything. They sound like the Occupy movement to me.

    Face it guys you hate the conservatives and the right. What it takes further that agenda will be used. But then again who am I…?

  97. Someone back east told me once….”Washington State is like a box of cereal…You pick out the nuts and you still have a bunch of flakes!”

    Oft times, I tend to agree! :D

  98. “How dare YOU define American conservatism for ME!”

    You attempt to define liberalism all the time. Pardon me, but your double standard is showing.

  99. Scorpion: “The government enabled this stuff. If they had not reduced the requirements, etc” == That’s exactly right. Thanks to Phil Gramm.

    Old_ben: “Barney Frank, September 2003″. In September, 2003, the GOP had majorities in both houses of Congress.

    lanq: “we allow the passengers to steer the ship. People who pay little or no income tax vote”. How very elitist. So much for democracy.

  100. SCORPION says:

    ehill – when I said requirements I was talking about the demand by Barney and company that ‘poor’ people be able to afford houses. Sorry you create a systemic risk when you do that.

    Since you bring up Graham did you know (probably did but hope I didn’t), that Act you refer to (I know you didn’t but who cares, great opportunity to dump one here) 90 people voted ‘Yea’ in the Senate with 38 of them Dems, 362 in the House with 155 of them Dems.

    Please tell me you are not attempting to blame one party over another.

    Washington is the problem here. Parties who create this partisan stuff are the problem here. Voters who fall for this partisan stuff here are the problem here.

  101. “Fascists were a revolutionary force in Italy. Does the phrase “revolutionary conservatives” make any sense whatsoever?” (28/9:52 PM)

    YES!

    Revolutionary Conservatives makes perfect sense!

    When you look at the political spectrum you see that Socialism is on the Left side and Nazism is on the Right. However, we all know, well most of us do, that NAZI stood for the National Socialist Party of Germany and yet they were Fascists

    Tea Party Republicans are Conservatives, but they are also Revolutionaries within the Republican Party, thus The Tea Party is a “Revolutionary Conservative” Movement within The Republican Party.

    Revolutionary Conservatives = The Tea Party Republicans

    You can try and spin that all you want, but its still a fact.

  102. “Face it guys you hate the conservatives and the right.” (29/6:07 AM)

    I will say it again, and will continue to say it as many times as it takes to get certain people to understand this…

    I am a Christian. I do not HATE anyone. If there is hate, it is expressed over and over by those who accuse others of hate. You need to look into the mirrors when you use the word hate. I do not hate you. I do not hate conservatives. I do not hate!

  103. SCORPION says:

    The problem with terms like ‘revolutionary’ whatever is that after a time they mean nothing. They get so convoluted by those that originated the term, attempt to hijack the term for their own usage and then the opposing side that attempts to use if for their own means.

    I read your post above and see how that makes perfect sense to you. Only to you and your ilk.

    Read your own source for fascism as well as the other related issues, especially the ‘Left-Right’ politics in the US one. And then come here and tell me any of this is a “FACT”

    If there is anything I got out of aislanders post, rebuttles and my own research is that:

    -the political spectrum in Europe is far different than the political spectrum in the United States.

    -Left encompasses a different political meaning in Europe vs the US

    -Right encompasses a different political meaning in Europe vs the US

    -What was Left/Right 200 years ago is different than 100 years ago than 50 years ago… heck than even 25 years ago. You guys brought that up with Reagan and the current Republican party.

    “…still a fact.” no sir, this is all – yours, mine, everybodies – nothing more than opinion.

  104. aislander says:

    SCORPION: So far, none of the libs has told us what the operative differences were between Stalin and Hitler.

    As for the political spectrum, I’ll take the one that remains after employing Occam’s Razor–the simple one: anarchy on the right; oppression on the left. That’s the continuum that fits with America.

    So…xring…a “revolutionary conservative” seems to you to be one who acts on his principles. Seriously, dude, you can’t be protecting and rebelling at the same time…

  105. SCORPION says:

    Ok, you don’t hate… I’m confused then because everytime I talk with you my feelings get hurt. I feel you mad at me. It hurts my feelings.

    Like today I feel like you are trying to call me a ‘fascist’ or at least in very slick ways equate me with one. That hurts.

    I did like Michael Jackson and thought his outfits were kool. The one glove thing was a little much. Maybe that’s the vibe your getting from me.

    or… I probably just need grow a set and man-up.

    Ok, I am better now.

  106. aislander says:

    There is no doubt that the American left cheered on the fascist movement right up to the time that Italy invaded Ethiopia, when disenchantment began. Wars of conquest had become unpopular even then. There IS an historical record, after all, that defies revisionist historians protecting the reputation of their own ideology.

    The genocide conducted by the Nazis, followed by the Axis loss of WWII cemented the disgrace of fascism, and the left ran away from it as fast as they could (even to the extent of obfuscating their own history along with that of European fascism)…

  107. Scorpion… “Since you bring up Graham” (29/8:30 AM) and “great opportunity to dump one here” (and you did dump one.)

    just to clarify for you Scorp,

    ehill brought up Gramm, not Graham, as in: Phil Gramm (former Senator from Texas and lobbyist for UBS, also co-sponser of the Enron Loophole), not Martha Graham (American modern dancer and choreographer).

    (ehill, I felt I owed you that assist due to the smear you took on another thread that was associated with me. I know you didn’t need it, but I wanted to help.)

  108. SCORPION says:

    exactly – I just keep seeing mud slinging. If BB was around he’d give you a run for your money… he’d still be wrong but at least the conversation would be enlightning….

    the xring response – I didn’t see that, that IS hilarious LMAO on that one.

  109. SCORPION says:

    OK – I spelt his name wrong – Gramm (Senator type) – my bad.

    Question though – but you couldn’t figure out that I meant him when I wrote the word ‘Act’, made reference to ‘Dems’ and provided vote tallys?

    OK – I’ll try to be more careful. Thanks man. ;)

  110. 29/8:55 AM -the political spectrum in Europe is far different than the political spectrum in the United States. -Left encompasses a different political meaning in Europe vs the US -Right encompasses a different political meaning in Europe vs the US”

    The Political Spectrum Chart I referenced and recreated in my post was U.S. based, as you will notice I specifically stated that Liberalism was represented by the Democrat Donkey icon, and Conservatism by the Republican Elephant icon.

    You argument here is nonsense attempted obfuscation.

  111. aislander says:

    Even before WWII, there was a competition between fascism and communism for the same political turf, and since, as Lincoln Steffens and that guy from the NY Times illustrated the lodestar of the American left was Moscow, our lefties threw in with the communists.

    EVERYBODY was a rightist according to Stalin and Trotsky, including the American Socialist Party leader Norman Thomas, as well as FDR. Makes perfect sense that the Russian communists would accuse fascists of being rightists and that the American left would take up that accusation.

    Which it did…

  112. 29/9:02 AM “I’m confused then because everytime I talk with you my feelings get hurt. I feel you mad at me. It hurts my feelings.”

    Then that is completely within your own mind, because absolutely nothing I wrote was meant to be hurtful to you or anyone else. You must be reading things into the comments that are not there. I can’t stop you from doing that. That is your problem. That is your psyche.

    I never called you or anyone else on these threads a Fascist. Prove me wrong if you can.

    I like Michael Jackson too. I thought he was a great entertainer!

  113. 29/9:05 AM “There is no doubt that the American left cheered on the fascist”

    So did Charles A.Lindbergh and Henry Ford. People can be wrong. Once they admit that, then they can learn and move on. Can you?

  114. aislander says:

    The BIG differences between Stalin and Hitler, again?

  115. 29/8:56 AM “anarchy on the right; oppression on the left.”

    I was going to ask you to go back and look at the spectrum, but decided to just repost it here to make it easier for you:

    Left vs. Right
    Traditional Political Spectrum

    Anarchism—- Communism —- Socialism —- Liberalism—-
    Far left ——————LEFT———————Center

    —-Conservatism —- Monarchism —- Nazism —- Fascism
    Center ——————RIGHT——————Far Right

    (BTW, Liberalism is represented by the Democratic Donkey and Conservatism represented by Republican Elephant)

    DO YOU SEE that Anarchism is on the Far LEFT (NOT the Right) and Oppression in the form of Fascism is on the Far RIGHT (NOT the Left).

    I’m trying to help you understand, but you are being very resistant to the facts.

  116. Stalin had a full mustache and Hitler didn’t.

  117. aislander says:

    SCORPION: So…if a lefty repeats an opinion often enough, it becomes a fact? Life sure is simple over there!

    …and apparently none of them has a serious answer as to the functional differences between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia–even though one of them is supposed to be waaaaay over on the right and the other so far on the left that they can’t even see each other.

    On the political spectrum that the Founders and I use–you know: the elegantly simple one–those guys are neighbors…

  118. SCORPION says:

    We… not you are falling into the premise that the chart you presented is ‘correct’ is a ‘fact’. Sorry it is not, it is an opinion of the author attempting to simplify a complex, dynamic subject.

    I found a chart that provide a spectrum on two axis. Authorian – Libertarian is one, Left – Right is another.

    I am trying to help you understand that their are other opinions here, but you sir believe your ‘fact’ to be the only premise… it is not. Sorry

  119. SCORPION says:

    all is not lost, the mousetach… he did present a “fact”

    it’s a start… ;)

    and yes I like my ‘neighbors’ Ben on one side, George on the other, Thomas is partying it up across the street…

  120. aislander says:

    That’s certainly a better neighborhood than the one Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Pol Pot, Mao, Robespierre, and other statist mass murderers occupy, SCORP…

    So…if a regime doesn’t actually kill people, but only imprisons them as the Wilson and FDR admins did: does that make it center-left?

  121. Scorpion,
    ‘this thing’ is used by both sides to demononize the other side.

    I see no running dispute among scholars, just an inability to use the term properly.

    “Fascism promotes political violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality. It views violence as a fact of life that is a necessary means to achieve human progress. It exalts militarism as providing positive transformation in society and providing spiritual renovation, education, instilling of a will to dominate in people’s character and creating national comradeship through military service. Fascists commonly utilize paramilitary organizations for violent attacks on opponents or to overthrow a political system.”

    ‘not conservatism’ You are suffering from the same problem of ‘what is conservatism’ that we are having with ‘what is facism’ – try looking up how conservatism is defined by our friends the scholars.

    ‘makes since only to you and your ilk’
    One who understands their opponent will never lose.
    One who does not understand their opponent will never win.

  122. Aislander, open your eyes, I have answered you question but you have not. So to make this official:

    What is the major difference between Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia?

    IMO: One difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Hitler hated Jews and Commies, Stalin hated Fascists and all religions.

    So sorry – I am not the one that responded to you ‘revolutionary conservative’ question.

    All revolutionaries act on their principals or they would not be revolutionaries.

    All revolutionaries are about protecting something/someone from the government in power.

    ‘Left cheered fascism . .. up to . . Ethiopia’

    Ever hear of the Abe Lincoln Brigade of the Spanish Civil War?

    On 6 December 1941, the third largest palatal party in the US was the German American Bund and American Nazi Party.

  123. 29/9:35 AM “if a lefty repeats an opinion often enough, it becomes a fact?”

    Oh come on now! It is YOU who have been repeating the same old song over, and over and over and OVER again and again and AGAIN attempting by repetition to make it right. I repeated one thing once. Give me a break!

    29/9:38 AM “I found a chart that provide a spectrum on two axis.”

    A. I did not find -A- chart that displayed the Traditional Political Spectrum. I found -MANY- charts that consistently present the longstanding historical and traditional view of the political spectrum, and recreated that common chart here for your benefit.

    B. You say you found A chart, but you have NEVER presented it here, or linked to it. Where’s the proof.

    29/9:35 AM “On the political spectrum that the Founders and I use”

    C. We haven’t seen this chart, or a link to it either. And it sounds like a completely different chart than your pal “uses”.

    I know there are “other opinions” here, but opinions are just opinions. Facts are FACTS! I wish you could learn that much.

    As far as political spectrum charts go, as I related to xring…

    28/11:37 PM “However, in my search it looks as if there are a great many people and organizations out there trying very desperately to redefine the political spectrum to suit their own needs, like some here on this thread are attempting also.”

    You can find any variation of a political spectrum chart you want, but I’ll stick with the old traditional historically accurate one as the baseline if you don’t mind.

  124. aislander says:

    Sorry if I misidentified you, xring. I guess the post just had the essence of one of yours.

    I asked for the functional differences between the two regimes, NOT how they felt about things. That should be easy to expound on if they were so far removed from one another…

    So…revolutionaries are about “protecting?” Huh–all this time I thought they were about overthrowing. Live and learn, I guess…

    As for the Spanish Civil War, which began AFTER Italy invaded Ethiopia, by the way, the large majority of Republicans were communists following Moscow’s lead. As I said, fascists and communists were fighting for the same turf…

  125. As long as I am being accused of something, then maybe I shoul djust go ahead and repeat:

    Revolutionary Conservatives = The Tea Party Republicans

    Revolutionary Conservatives = The Tea Party Republicans

    Revolutionary Conservatives = The Tea Party Republicans

    Revolutionary Conservatives = The Tea Party Republicans

    Revolutionary Conservatives = The Tea Party Republicans

    But, that’s not even an “opinion” it’s simply a FACT, and thus when you say:

    29/9:35 AM “if a lefty repeats an opinion often enough, it becomes a fact?”

    I am still NOT GUILTY of your charge,because I am repeating FACT, NOT OPINION.

  126. SCORPION says:

    I am not going to present a chart that I haven’t validated. My point was that you presented a single axis chart which is inherently less accurate than a dual axis chart (triple is more accurate, get where I am going).

    No offense but you claimed no source for your chart either. No biggie as I don’t see it as valid for this conversation. The concepts, history, definitions, premise, etc… are all way to complex and controversial to be placed on a singular axis chart.

    What “Fact” have you (or I… or anyone) provided. There are no facts here. Your chart is not a fact, it is a visual representation of some data from some source put together by some person based on his understanding of the material. See the second paragraph above for the difficulty in calling that ‘fact’

    Stick with your chart. God bless you if it works for you but I tend to believe it to be too simplistic for a conversation such as this.

  127. aislander says:

    xring: Here is a link to a rather simplified exposition of the Founders’ political spectrum. Hey, wait! It doesn’t have to be simplified, because it IS elegantly simple!

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_the_founding_fathers_political_spectrum_look_like

    Occam’s Razor: entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.

    By having authoritarian regimes at BOTH ends of your spectra, you are multiplying entities unnecessarily.

  128. SCORPION says:

    Their is no such thing as a Tea Party Republican.

    To be a Repulican you must be a member of or registered as a “Republican”

    The Tea Party is a movement, not a party. They subscribe to a specific set of beliefs along the fiscal spectrum primarily.

    If someone say ‘Tea Party Republican” they are speaking off the cuff.

    As an example, if I identified Hillary Clinton as a ‘progressive Democrat’. She is a member of the Democratic Party and has identified herself as a progressive. I would caution that one needs to ask her what her definition of ‘progrssive’ means as their has been an evolution of the term since used over 100 years ago.

  129. aislander says:

    The REALLY misleading thing about modern representations of political spectra (I just realized) is that they have a natural center, and, with a little manipulation, one can place his OWN ideology at that center point. Very useful for propaganda.

    The Founders’ spectrum doesn’t really HAVE a center. You must make a choice about how much government is enough…

  130. SCORPION says:

    I love these discussions. That link is a great start to what the Founding Fathers thought of the political.

    Thanks

  131. SCORPION says:

    People have asked me if I am liberal or conservative.

    My response has become if in the course of conversation you find yourself looking to your right to converse with me than I am probably a conservative… relative to you and your perception of yourself.

    I add the left side also… Some are really not sure what to do with that.

    Too much government right now and has been for awhile…

  132. aislander says:

    The point that REALLY discredits the newer spectra is that the center is arbitrary. There is absolutely nothing arbitrary about a continuum from chaos to shackles…

  133. 29/10:13 AM “Their (sic) is no such thing as a Tea Party Republican.”

    If you are correct, then somebody needs to inform the following people, because they think they are Tea Party Republicans, and two of them are running for President!

    “The Tea Party’s most noted national figures include Republican politicians such as Ron Paul and his son Rand Paul, Sarah Palin, Dick Armey, Eric Cantor, and Michele Bachmann, with the elder Paul described by some as the “intellectual godfather” of the movement.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement

  134. aislander says:

    I apologize for the word repetition and caps in my last two posts, but I think I stumbled on something important about WHY the newer spectra were created in the first place: they are being used as political tools rather than as tools of understanding.

    The older spectrum, devised by the Founders or their guiding philosophers is perfectly serviceable (more serviceable, in fact) relative to the newer imaginings. So why replace it?

    You replace it if you want to influence rather than enlighten…

  135. Yah, I read your Answers.com explanation of your alleged “founders political spectrum” but did not see a single attribution that would take us back to anything any of The Founders actually wrote about said political spectrum. No proof there, sorry.

  136. I suppose there’s no such thing as a “Log Cabin Republican” either!

  137. 29/10:06 AM “I am not going to present a chart that I haven’t validated.”

    Translated, I don’t really have a chart that I can show you right now. I actually never did, but I’ll keep looking, and when I find one I will say I was taking my time “validating” it before I posted it here.

  138. 29/10:312 AM “The older spectrum, devised by the Founders or their guiding philosophers is perfectly serviceable”

    Okay, so show us the spectrum already! But, was it devised by the Founders or their guiding philosophers? Who were those guiding philosophers anyway. Can you name names? For that matter, who were the named Founders who used the alleged spectrum?

  139. 29/ 10:17 AM “I love these discussions. That link is a great start to what the Founding Fathers thought of the political.”

    I love these discussion too, but seriously that link to Answers.com, was kind of lame!

  140. SCORPION says:

    Per your own source muckibr…

    It is title correctly – Tea Party Movement. Wikipedia did not call it a ‘Party”

    They refer to national “figure” as oppose to member, implying a party requiring membership

    They refer to those figure by political party which leaves editorial room for ‘Democratic politicians’

    There is no black and white here. It is just my opinion based on the data provided to me. Tea Party Republicans is a term used as I see. You can also have Tea Party Democrats…. Tea Party Independent.

    I am seeing shades of grey here. How about you?

    On a separate note – why were you looking for ‘proof’ I am sure there are other sources for information but that one does provide a basis for further exploration, does it not?

    He also stated it was a ‘rather simplified exposition’ which in my gray shaded spectrum signals to me that it is not all inclusive, may provide some information but not definitive information to the complicated subject at hand.

    From my vantage point in order to have the knowledge set that aislander has related to this in depth subject I tend to believe that it would require more than a single source in more than a single sitting… but that’s just me.

  141. SCORPION says:

    Oh boy I guess we are running out of steam here, the insults begin. By the way do you get to add points to your NN / NR chart there? Just asking, you are starting to rack up a few here.

    Yahoo search – ‘Traditional Political Spectrum’ changed it to ‘Political Spectrum’ and used an image search and web search for both. A lot of blogs, hence the need for validation. Quite a few cartoonish ones, hence the need for validation.

    Personally I am not sure there is a ‘valid’ one considering the complexity and depth of the subject matter.

    I also think Wikipedia has its issues also but it can be used as a simple reference and he previse the offering with a statement.

  142. 29/11:10 AM “I am seeing shades of grey here. How about you?”

    I always see shades of gray as well as the full spectrum and palette of colors, but you originally wrote:

    29/10:13 AM “Their [sic] is no such thing as a Tea Party Republican.”

    and that’s about as Black & White a statement as one can write.

    I am glad you are starting to open up to new points of view. That is my purpose for bringing these things to your attention.

  143. aislander says:

    SCORP: The Founders were guided by Burke, Locke, Montesquieu, Cicero, Moses, and others. Really, it’s an easy search if you want to make it, but I just pulled those few off the top of my head.

    The Founders described their idea of governments and the relationships of types of governments in the Federalist papers, in which they spoke of “people’s law” and “ruler’s law” as being on opposite poles. This is where the idea of their political spectrum came from.

    More important, though, is the reality that there is no arbitrary center point, the existence of which discredits every other attempt at defining the political spectrum…

  144. Scorpion, show me one “insult” that I have posted on THIS thread. Just one out and out “insult”.

    insult

    verb |inˈsəlt| [ trans. ]
    speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse : you’re insulting the woman I love | [as adj. ] ( insulting) their language is crude and insulting to women.

    noun |ˈinˌsəlt|
    • a disrespectful or scornfully abusive remark or action : he hurled insults at us | he saw the book as a deliberate insult to the Church.
    • a thing so worthless or contemptible as to be offensive : the present offer is an absolute insult.

    When you can’t, then I shall expect your sincere apology.

  145. aislander, no matter how many times you repeat this

    29/11:43 AM “More important, though, is the reality that there is no arbitrary center point, the existence of which discredits every other attempt at defining the political spectrum…”

    … without ever providing any actual proof in the form of documentation it does not make it true. (And you have been repeating this many. many times now.)

    May I remind you what you wrote previously about repetition?

    29/9:35 AM “So…if a lefty repeats an opinion often enough, it becomes a fact? Life sure is simple over there!”

    You are trying to make life simple for yourself by never ever providing any proof of your oft repeated conjecture. It would seem that it’s not a “lefty” doing this, but you. Unless, you really are a secret “lefty”.

  146. SCORPION says:

    Well there is no such thing as a Tea Party Republican. You are either a member of the Republican party of you are not. Sorry that is black and white. They have no subdivisions in the Republican Party.

    These terms are used by the media, partisans, and the members themselves in an attempt to describe themselves and further define themselves to an audience. For partisans as weapons in an attempt to demonize.

    Blue Dog Democrat – there is no sub division in the Democrat Party sadly they are becoming extinct.

    You wanna call Ron Paul a Tea Party Republican he might not correct you as I believe he self describes at times as a Libertarian… go figure.

  147. SCORPION says:

    Thanks for the info aislander. I have cut and pasted it for further review and research.

    You are right muckibr this open-minded concpet (sic) stuff is really kool… kinda groovy too ;)

  148. Scorpion, didn’t you forget to write something? Like an apology?

  149. I think Dcr628 may have been talking to Forrest Gump, or his momma.

    I don’t get it. What was that supposed to mean ?

  150. 29/7:27 AM DCR… wrote: “Someone back east told me once….”Washington State is like a box of cereal…You pick out the nuts and you still have a bunch of flakes!” Oft times, I tend to agree!”

    Since Dcr… didn’t say who said it, I was simply speculating. Its not an insult, no matter how you spin it. It says nothing about Dcr… in any derogatory sense. Just saying that the quote Dcr… used, unattributed, sounded like it could have come right out of the movie Forrest Gump. Now tell me you don’t believe that too!

    Try again amjim. No joy this time!

  151. Aislander,
    ‘fascists and communists were fighting each other for the same turf” is only partially true. They were fighting EACH OTHER for the working class.

    Well it is a simplified statement. So simplified that the author would not event sign it. Maybe because it is also wrong.

    The Founding Fathers put anarchy on the side of ‘no government’ and put ‘Monarchy/ no representation’ on the side of too much government, with ‘representative democracy somewhere in the middle.

    Scorpion,

    Within each party, individual members are ranked on a ‘left to right’ scale.

    Republicans are ranked from Moderate to Ultra Conservative.’

    Democrats are ranked from extreme liberal to ‘conservative’.

    A ‘conservative dem’ is to the left of a ‘moderate rep’ but both share some common views and policies.

    Aislander & Scorpion, Golden Mean.

  152. SCORPION says:

    xring – not sure what you are reading… or maybe not… but we are well beyond simple little single axis, left vs right spectrums here…

    well beyond…

  153. yabetchya says:

    Scorpion, show me one “insult” that I have posted on THIS thread. Just one out and out “insult”.

    Don’t bother Scorpion, he will never admit to one. He will just say it was an “opinion” as he has stated before.
    He did leave him self some wiggle room, by saying in “THIS” thread. All the other insults do not count, because well, they are on all the other threads.

  154. SCORPION says:

    I saw that – THIS – and decided to head back to the topic. The snipe and insults are lower key, more subtle but actually tolerable.

    Don’t mind a little elbow here and there… ;)

  155. yabetcha, FACT IS I have admitted to posting insults in the past, but not in this thread, and not for quite some time. I truly did learn my lesson about that, and am really trying to set an example here. Seriously, I am really trying to elevate the dialogue on these threads so we can debate issues instead of devolve into something not really worthy of any of us.

    Sometimes I slip-up even now, with comments that are not insults, but have gotten closer to the line that I should have allowed them to get. And I honestly apologize for that, and I have apologized in writing, in comments on other threads, when I have done that. But, I say again, I have not insulted anyone here on this thread, yet.

    Now as regards the Topic at hand…

    I have also mentioned on other threads that I believe we should vote against all incumbents in the upcoming elections. Throw them all out and start with a fresh new set of legislators state and federal.

    Now some people will say, “Throw them all out.” But really mean, “Throw them all out, except mine, because he or she is a nice guy.”

    My current Congressman is a nice guy too, and I’d be happy to buy him a beer or a coffee or whatever and just shoot the breeze with him. He seems like an okay guy, and I think maybe he’s doing an okay job. I don’t have any real complaints about him. But, it’s really a matter of principle, and I have said repeatedly “Vote out all incumbents!” and that’s what I fully intend to do in the next election. Good guy or not.

  156. “I was talking about the demand by Barney and company that ‘poor’ people be able to afford houses.” == Congressman Frank was in the minority when he made that “demand.”

    “90 people voted ‘Yea’ in the Senate with 38 of them Dems, 362 in the House with 155 of them Dems” == Which means that more Republicans than Democrats voted ‘aye’.

    Please tell me you are not attempting to blame one party over another.

  157. “the functional differences between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia”

    Unlike Stalin, Hitler cooperated with many of the private industry leaders.

  158. SCORPION says:

    no ehill – what I am telling you is don’t act all innocent and helpless.

    That was one truely bi-partisan bill and barney frank is not as helpless as one can be lead to believe.

  159. All this jabbering about whether the last 2 years, the last 4 years or the last 10 years were responsible for the Great Recession is about seeing the trees and not the forest.

    You have to look at the policies put into place over the last 30 years while keeping a very sharp eye on what Alan Greenspan was doing to see the actual causes.

    Both Dems and Repubs are guilty – NEITHER Party has the solution.

  160. aislander says:

    SCORP: It appears that THE difference between Hitler and Stalin is said to be how they went about co-opting business. Even if this is true–and it is to some degree–is that a substantive difference that would require their being placed at opposite ends of the arbitrary political spectra?

    The question about whether the anarchy/tyranny spectrum was credited by the Founders (it was, of course) is irrelevant. The question is: which spectrum best illustrates reality, and which is best at describing where particular actions by a government place it on that spectrum.

    There is no question that the anarchy/tyranny spectrum is the most useful, if only because it encompasses anarchy–which the others do not–AND leaves room to place various types of representative governments at different points on the scale. The newer spectra, for example, would place, say, Norway and Singapore in the same place, while they obviously have rather different degrees of governmental control of individuals and the business of individuals…

  161. aislander says:

    Hey, beerBoy! You have to add about 70 or 80 years to your estimation of where the problem began. There have always been fluctuations in the business cycle.

    I am convinced that governmental actions to defeat that cycle are responsible for the depth and length of the current recession (I am not at all persuaded we ever emerged from the recession).

    Those actions and the huge amount of capital that government has siphoned and continues to siphon from the economy have created and exacerbated the mess…

  162. 29/4:21 PM “There is no question that the anarchy/tyranny spectrum is the most useful,”

    Only to you, but I and others do question it. Can we move beyond your apparent obsession with the political spectrum? I really think that ship has sailed.

    This topic is about firing politicians.

    There is NOTHING in the letter above about the “political spectrum” !

    The letter asks basic stuff like why we allow our current government employees to put “criminals back on the streets because the jails are overcrowded” or “turning traffic patrol officers into tax collectors” or “accept tolls on roads we use to go down freely” or “allowing bureaucrats and politicians to deny people in pain pills” and also why they can “drive the cost of a carton of cigarettes to $100 with taxes” or tell us “what kind of toilet, light bulb, car or fast food I can have.”

    None of that has anything to do with the “political spectrum.”

    So, given what this topic is really all about, would you agree that we should fire all the legislators in Olympia and congresspersons in D.C., and start with a fresh new crew?

  163. aislander says:

    amjim: On rereading the thread, it seems that it was xring who brought up fascism and steered the thread in the direction it took…

    Sum-one should lose his obsession with having the last word…

  164. Okay, aislander, since I am sure you are referring to me then I will give-in on this thread and let amjim have the LAST WORD. Go ahead amjim, the floor is yours. I am done here. amjim, you have the last word. Go for it.

  165. muckibr writes….”Since Dcr… didn’t say who said it, I was simply speculating. Its not an insult, no matter how you spin it. It says nothing about Dcr… in any derogatory sense. Just saying that the quote Dcr… used, unattributed, sounded like it could have come right out of the movie Forrest Gump. Now tell me you don’t believe that too!”

    Nope…Forrest didnt say it….it wasnt anyone famous…just some old coot I know. And it DOES sound a but Gumpish doesnt it….regardless of it all however, I still tend to think its true more often than not. :D

  166. ……and “amjim”? if you dont get it, it would probably take the rest of the day to ‘splain it to you. :D

  167. Well Dcr… I hope you didn’t take any offense at my comment. It certainly was not meant that way.

  168. Ah… muckibr, are you the amijim imposter ?

    No… it’s your buddy that leaves a snailtrail that you pretended to be ignorant of… yea, kooky.

    Oh, and muckibr, while the last bit of credibility you have is hanging in the balance, maybe you should speak to your brother, Larry P. Hill, (kardnos/RW) about his imposter screen name. Cute… He’s BTDT.

    >waiting for ehill(erik) to chime in.

  169. aislander says:

    So…amjim…if you want that last word (that WAS really funny, by the way, until sum-one stepped on the punchline)…

  170. Like father, like son… wonder if Erik has a goatee .

  171. SCORPION says:

    aislander – one of the problems I had with the left vs right is that it was too simplistic and difficult to come up with a definition of what is considered left and what is considered right. And trying to do that in a non-political context. Wikipedia actually has a decent overview of left-right politics in the US and the origination of the terms left/right (French). Not at all close to the dribble that occurs on this board and others.

    When doing earlier research I noticed different pairings of terms – anarchy/tranny, anarchy/authoritarianism, libertarian/authoritarian.

    From the wikianswers
    By the founders political spectrum, communism, socialism & fascism would be considered 100% government, where as anarchy ( no government ) would be considered 0% government. In my opinion, they would consider the current form of the political spectrum to be pointless and useless because it shows no place for anarchy.

    I am now seeing that I should, as a citizen, decide how much I want government in my life, what I want them to do for me. That determines where on the founding fathers scale government should be, at least for me.

    This left/right stuff is nothing more than two sides of the same coin. It appears they both can get you to big government, just take different paths to get there.

    To stay on topic for muckibr, we don’t need to fire ALL the incumbents, just the ones who advocate for big government in one form or another.

  172. Who’s Eric? It isn’t me.

  173. Scorpion is right – multipoint point graphs are much better than two point line charts.

    for example.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

    also

    America Political Spectrum at
    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=American+Political+SPECTRUM&qpvt=American+Political+SPECTRUM&FORM=IGRE#x0y0

    Islander:
    Our Founding Fathers viewed life under anarchy as being solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, short and to be avoided at all cost.

    They viewed utopia as a perfect place of communal living, where people have evolved beyond the needs of laws, worked only 6 hours a day, after which they were they were on their own but were expected to spend their time wisely.

    Note: Women were regarded as weaker than men, and were responsible for cooking meals, while dirty and unpleasant jobs were performed by slaves.

    Ehill – ‘functional differences” – EXCELLENT!. Might add that cooperation was two way and included leaders from all areas (art, media, science, etc).

    Aislander, I brought it up in a post and forget response to Taxedenough. YOU jumped on and took the blog of thread.

  174. Two functional differences between Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia.

    Most Germans were grateful for the success of the Nazi party and fell in step with the polices created, whereas Stalin had to use force to bring/keep most Russians (especially the peasantry) into line and under control.

    Both countries pushed hard form new national identities. The new Germany identiy was based on racial principles (Master Race vs. undesirables and enemies of the state), whereas the Soviets worked for a total cultural transformation based on the ideology of the communist party.

  175. Pacman33 says:

    SCORPION said –
    “This left/right stuff is nothing more than two sides of the same coin. It appears they both can get you to big government.”

    If the size and scope of government isn’t the biggest differentiating factor between Progressive/Left and Conservative/Right, I would sure be curious to know what is instead?

    When have you ever encountered a ‘Small Government Progressive’?

    The phrase it self defies the implication of their self-promulgated label. The left’s destination of ‘progress’ requires a substantial, centralized government as the vehicle in their road-trip to socialism. The Constitution, which is considered a bulwark against tyranny to Conservatives, along with it’s original intent of limited government is merely an obstacle in the left’s path to progress.

    “Fascism finds it necessary, at the outset, to take away from the ordinary human being what he has been taught and has grown to cherish the most: personal liberty. And it can be affirmed, without falling into exaggeration, that a curtailment of personal liberty not only has proved to be, but necessarily must be, a fundamental condition of the triumph of Fascism.”
    — Mario Palmieri (1936)

  176. SCORPION says:

    pacman – progressives are big government, they are who they are. No question from me about that.

    I am going to refer to party instead of ideology… I find that the GOP, though a definitive ‘obstacle in the left’s path to progress’, appear to me also to have their own version of the size and scope of government.

    I am encourage by the work to stop the EPA and Obamacare… I am a little concerned about the security and defense side of the coin. Something is not right there.

    I am not a Progressive. I am trying to define what a ‘Conservative’ is, what the basis for a strong, effective, preferably small government is based on the principles of the founding fathers and then look for and support candidates who best meet those ideals.

    To be clear the Progressives must not win 2012. Irrepairable damage will occur (we could make a case it already has). I just don’t want to shoot myself in the foot moving forward. This is a work in progress on my part.

  177. These conversations keep repeating themselves, only the names change.

    SCORPION…..are you someone who likes to quaff Olde English? Just want to know if I know who the players are these days.

  178. Pac33,
    Progressives do not support socialism; we want a level playing field where workers and the middle class coexist with business owners rather than be treated as interchangeable wage slaves. While most of us realize this will require the federal government to have more power than some conservatives are comfortable with, we still support the Constitution.

    Thank of government, business, and workers as the three legs on a stool. When one is not in balance with the other two the stool is unstable.

    Scorpion,
    As I said above, larger than some are comfortable with, but not a bloated, inefficient all powerful monster. And in some areas Progressives favor a less intrusive government than some conservatives.
    And not all conservatives believe in small government but want to use the power of government to enforce their agenda.

  179. I see the usual folks on the (very far) right are still attempting to tell themselves what liberalism is:

    Pacman: “The left’s destination of ‘progress’ requires a substantial, centralized government as the vehicle in their road-trip to socialism. The Constitution, which is considered a bulwark against tyranny to Conservatives, along with it’s original intent of limited government is merely an obstacle in the left’s path to progress.”

    Scorpion: “progressives are big government, they are who they are.”

    aislander: “anarchy on the right; oppression on the left. That’s the continuum that fits with America.”

  180. took14theteam says:

    beerBoy, RW says we don’t need to know who anyone is here, remember….

    Hope you had a pleasant time away from here the past week or so. Did you have to visit the outlaws?

  181. aislander says:

    Pacman33: SCORP was talking about the now-conventionally-accepted view of left and right as expressed by the newer representations of the political spectrum, but, I think, disagreeing with that view.

    In that view, the far right is represented by nazism and and the far left by soviet-style communism. That view depends on an arbitrary center point, which makes it a propaganda tool for whoever is creating the representation.

    The Founders’ view of the political spectrum is completely unbiased because there is no arbitrary center point. “Right” and “left” have no meaning other than where they are placed on the spectrum. They could be reversed, and there would be no change in the utility of the spectrum.

    The now-conventional view depends on those terms having some meaning apart from where they appear on the spectrum being used, but they really don’t possess that meaning. If they did, someone, I’m certain, would have produced a SUBSTANTIVE difference in operating method between Hitler and Stalin, for example…

  182. The most interesting thing on this whole thread IMO is aislander’s observation that each person considers himself/herself at the center and judges everyone else based on that.

    And muckibr, while I don’t think you are being intentionally obtuse, I really don’t think you fully appreciate the distinction between fact and opinion. You also seem to trust internet sources far too readily.

  183. “If they did, someone, I’m certain, would have produced a SUBSTANTIVE difference in operating method between Hitler and Stalin, for example…”

    Apparently, the difference between the retention of private property and the abolition of private property isn’t ‘substantive’.”

  184. SCORPION says:

    bb – Olde English… a fine choice of beverage especially with Mom’s freshly made oatmeal cookies.

    A long, rather entertaining story… but behavior has changed, a sacrifice required but post are done in full view of the keepers of the pixels…

    Movin’ on… enjoy the conversations… yes admittedly repetitious at times.

  185. SCORPION says:

    ehill – I get my information from the Progressives approved talking points manual. There are countless quotes, videos, recordings where they tell us this.

  186. SCORPION says:

    aislander / Pacman – The current left/right doesn’t make sense to me anymore. I can’t tell you what being on the right side of the sandbox means anymore and hence, I find it hard to defend. (the left side of the sandbox is foggy also. I am not sure if they even know who they are anymore)

    I can defend Conservatism. As long as I stick to a specific set of principles and values I can do that. As is my practice, I try to go to the source. The Founding Fathers appear to have some foundations I seek. Like I said a work in progress at this point. You guys and others are helping by the way.

    ” That view depends on an arbitrary center point, which makes it a propaganda tool for whoever is creating the representation.

    Bingo, that is what I am experiencing with those sort of conversations.

  187. Thanks RW, got it, 50/50.

  188. BTW, I will no longer be posting under the screen name amjim. A troll has decided it would be cute to create a look-a-like screen name amijim , and the staff apparently believes that behavior is acceptable.

  189. Pacman33 says:

    aislander
    “The Founders’ view of the political spectrum is completely unbiased because there is no arbitrary center point.”
    SCORPION
    “That determines where on the founding fathers scale government should be, at least for me.”

    The Framers of the Constitution simplify a vast amount of subjects and questions that we tend to over complicate these days. The ‘political spectrum’ / ‘Founding Fathers scale of government’ is an excellent example of this point. I like to call it ‘Our Founder Compass’. There were no ‘isms, Stalins or Hitlers only one word that describes all; Tyranny.

    aislander describes the opposite end of the two-dimensional scale / spectrum as well as anyone, but I’ll give it a shot. The Founder’s basic task was to devise a government that would be strong enough to secure our rights against domestic and foreign oppression yet not so powerful or extensive as to be oppressive itself, so limited in scope to the threshold of caution.(ais can likely phrase it better)

    The only middle or center on this spectrum is halfway between the founding’s intent and tyranny.

  190. aislander says:

    Sum-one up-thread is helping me make my point. Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany had different degrees of government control of property. They may have called these by different names, but it was really a matter of degree rather than of kind.

    Jewish residents of Hitler’s Germany knew quite well that they had no property rights, and industrialists likewise had to dance to the nazi tune. Government control and government ownership really describe the same thing.

    These differences make the two regimes neighbors rather than polar opposites on the ideological continuum…

  191. aislander says:

    Pacman33 writes: “The only middle or center on this spectrum is halfway between the founding’s intent and tyranny.”

    The only cavil I would have with that is the strong sense that we should tend toward the side of less government. The middle of that spectrum is too much government for my taste…

  192. amiJames says:

    Thanks RW, got it, 50/50

  193. Pacman33 says:

    Son of a gun …. I’ve been Donkey Duped by a ‘Progressive SCORPION’ haven’t I? Good grief, I need to not be in such a hurry. I believe I bit hook, line and sinker on that waste of time. Are Scorpions related to Cockroaches?

    “A troll has decided it would be cute to create a look-a-like screen name am’i’jim , and the staff apparently believes that behavior is acceptable.”

    Speaking of tyrannical oppression ….. Let us know if there is anything myself or others could do to help? E-mails and Telephone calls is all I can conjure up. Say the word.

  194. “They may have called these by different names, but it was really a matter of degree rather than of kind.”

    Right. The difference between retention of private property and confiscation of private property are only “a matter of degree”. Same as the difference between life and death, black and white, etc.

  195. aislander says:

    amjames: I’m certain that your identity has been usurped by one of those tools who constantly whines about thread-drift and sanctimoniously offers suggestions about what we really should be discussing…

  196. aislander says:

    …and amjames: who would have thought lefties would given ANY consideration to property rights?

  197. Pacman33 says:

    “The middle of that spectrum is too much government for my taste…”
    Every American should consider that too much.

    Would you surmise the the Founders thought of the subject in the same sense as I described, back in that point in time?

    Strictly Limited & Tyranny
    Enumerated Govt ———- Oppressive
    Liberty & Freedom Despotism
    I———————————————I

  198. Pacman33 says:

    Strictly Limited & I—————————I Tyranny,Oppressive Despotism
    Enumerated Govt
    Liberty & Freedom

  199. Pacman33 says:

    You know what I’m unsuccessfully attempting ……

  200. SCORPION says:

    Pacman / aislander – I think we have just illustrated how difficult these conversations are despite our best attempts. It appears the extremes are easy to define and agree upon. I haven’t seen any disagreement there.

    But I have obviously failed at my attempt, to be called a Progressive… ouch. Definitely a work in progress.

    Maybe if we shared a bottle of ice cold Olde English with some of mom’s delicious cookies we could agree that freedom, liberty and the role of government may be articulated differently by the each of us, we are all at least headed in the same direction…

    ‘Founder’s Compass’ your 3:50 post added some perspective for me. Reading your critique and our attempt with a scale, the principles are more important to focus upon then try to define the ‘center’ portion of an arbitrary scale.

    Though I think it difficult to define a ‘center’, you two are probably looking to your ‘left’ talking to me. With Pacman to my ‘right’ and aislander to the ‘right’ of him. Again all relative with a hard to define ‘center’ But I am convinced we are all facing the same direction using a few documents created in the late 1700’s as an instruction manual for a ‘Compass’

    Like I said, work in progress…

  201. muckiibr says:

    No problem amiJames….

  202. took14theteam says:

    I just experienced the double standard on this web forum. Pathetic…

  203. Thanks RW, got it, 50/50.

    HUH?

    I haven’t been on this thread since….let’s look….oh yeah…here:

    RW98512 says:
    Dec. 28, 2011 at 8:43 am

    Someone’s paranoia is really got a hold on them.

  204. I checked on to this thread to see over 200 comments. When last I posted it was something like 30 comments.

    What I’ve learned is that during 170 comments, none of which were mine, I’m the topic of quite a bit of conversation and all sorts of false assumptions.

    I think I’ll go back to bed and make sure I kick this flu before tomorrow night.

    Let me know if you need to talk about me and I’ll provide some true facts for you.

  205. took14 – no inlaws or outlaws, went south to try out the new tent at Zion National Park. Surprisingly full of tourists – many folks with ancestry based in Japan or India there……perhaps they were enjoying winter break without having the Christmas traditions to keep them home(?)

    sozo – I don’t consider myself center in my views.

    Regarding multiple personality disorders – it appears that Sybil has come back with a vengeance….and Liberty Bell is back too! Who needs to go to a Minnesota lake….you can see the loons right here.

  206. Don’t be calling me names beerBoy.

  207. Loons are beautiful birds. I love to hear their song.

  208. tweet tweet tweet

  209. That is not the sound a loon makes. You must think you are a Rockin’ Robin or maybe you are on twitter.

    Loons are beautiful birds, and why I love Canadians so much for putting them on their coins. You really should not mock them.

    Hello Sybil!

  210. aislander says:

    Turns out that “Sybil” was a fraud–as with many current screen names…

  211. Aislander –‘ How dare I define American conservatism to you’?
    Because I read books and form my own conclusion rather that parroting right wing talking points.

    Scorpion,
    I support and defend the Constitutions from all enemies, foreign or domestic, left, right, or center.

    ‘Liner – graphs’ are over simplified and I referenced them in an attempt to enlighten Aislander, but they proved to be to complex.

    Aislander – did I tell you the conservatives love the past and want to return American to some past Golden Age – usually the 1880’s and 1890’s when Big Business believed in Robber Baron Capitalism and wanted to change our national motto to Caveat emptor.

    ‘don’t fully appreciate the distinction between fact and opinion”
    So Sozo who do you trust for you fact based opinions?

    Ehill – notice that Aislander has failed to accept my indentation to enlightened we poor ignorant progressives as to what he thinks those substantive differences are.

    Scoprion ‘arbitrary center point” – Have you ever read a world history book that was not Eurocentric?

    By asiging their own position to the center one is trying to justify that position.

    Pacman33 – 12-30-11, 3:50pm – some excellent points, and well said.
    Part of the Founders beliefs was that one was judged by how they treated others.

    Another was that too little government was a harmful as too much.
    Yes I do, a link would help.

    Aislander – ‘who would thought that lefties would give ANY consideration to property rights?’ Such a pity that you continue to be uninformed on the subtleties of the American political spectrum.

  212. xring,

    “Have you ever read a world history book that was not Eurocentric?”

    Yep. It’s called “Guns, Germs, and Steel” by Jared Diamond. PBS aired a miniseries about it. http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/

  213. aislander says:

    Anybody who even uses words such as “Eurocentric” immediately forfeits ALL credibility,,,

  214. aislander says:

    xring writes: “By asiging their own position to the center one is trying to justify that position.”

    Exactly the point I was making, x. Thanks for reiterating it for me!

  215. “Anybody who even uses words such as “Eurocentric” immediately forfeits ALL credibility”

    Anyone who says “Anybody who even uses words such as “Eurocentric” immediately forfeits ALL credibility” immediately forfeits all credibility.

  216. aislander says:

    Yes, xring: I should have written: Who would have thought lefties give any consideration to private property rights. Good catch, x!

  217. “Wow Jr. (ehill) that was such a clever comeback.”

    No, not really. It was about on a par with the original comment itself.

  218. aislander says:

    I am surprised, amJames, that one leftist…er…utensil, would make such a dismissive comment about another implement of the left. xring posted the “original comment iself…”

  219. aislander says:

    But, of course, the utensil is correct in that regard. “Eurocentric” is replete with the aroma of the left, from the smug nod toward “diversity” to the implied slam at Western civilization itself. The word carries so much freight that it is useless as a descriptive…er…tool–if I may use that word apart from its proper meaning. I’m sure they won’t mind…

    The ironic part is that, as a slam against America, Eurocentric is by no means precise. I would proudly assert that OUR culture is Anglogenic, if I may coin yet another word, yet strongly Amerocentric, taking in as it does influences from all those who have immigrated here…

  220. slanderer says:

    aislander says: Dec. 30, 2011 at 4:22 pm   The only cavil I would have with that is

    “Anybody who MISuses words such as “cavil” immediately forfeits ALL credibility and pretense of basic intelligence”

    aislander says: Jan. 1, 2012 at 6:21 pm   “I would proudly assert that OUR culture is Anglogenic, if I may coin yet another word, yet strongly Amerocentric, taking in as it does influences from all those who have immigrated here…”

    That is about the most OPENLY RACIST COMMENT I have ever read on these threads!

    ANGLOGENIC? Only WHITE PEOPLE are AMEROCENTRIC?

    If you really believe that then you are clearly promoting a RACIST AGENDA.

  221. Ehill –‘ G,G,S’ is an excellent book, and a great read. Have you read JD’s ‘Collapse’?

    Pacmsn33 – I believe Aislander meant Caveat – noun – a warning, caution, or admonition.

  222. aislander says:

    I MEANT “cavil,” xring, as I explained above. You have a real problem about telling other people what they “really” mean, don’t you?

  223. Bandito says:

    “Beam me up Scotty. There’s no intelligent life down here.”

  224. aislander says:

    You pulled MY RESPONSE to slanderer’s unfounded accusation of racism? It accused me of promoting a racist agenda, while I merely observed that it was promoting an idiot’s agenda. Which is worse?

  225. aislander says:

    I think slanderer flagged my response because it was embarrassed at the way its attack was disassembled. I would be, too, if I had made such a botched argument…

  226. aislander says:

    Here is the original response (I had a feeling you would flag it out of embarrassment):

    “Well, I’m not sure who you REALLY are, but the screen name you used for that post is appropriate. Thanks for the fodder, though… I’m not aware of any racism in my comment, since I spoke only of culture. Race and culture ARE different, right?

    There is no doubt that the origin of our culture is largely British, but it has benefited from the contributions of all who have come here, as I indicated. The knee-jerk accusation of racism is SO liberal, it is a howling cliche’.

    As for the word “cavil,” I had only a small disagreement with SCORP’s (I think it was his) post, and cavil MEANS a small, frivolous disagreement, meaning I thought he was mostly correct, but was pointing out a minor dispute in a self-deprecating way.

    So, I would conclude by saying you are promoting a–well, you know, don’t you–and are well-suited to the task… “

  227. aislander says:

    I just figured out that slanderer has no idea that “Anglo” refers to England.

    Tsk–our public education system today. Sad…

  228. SCORPION says:

    Nineteen hours into the new year and already the ‘racism’ charge. wowzers… and not even close to take that racism dump.

    I suspect you are correct aislander, either the offending poster truly didn’t know the meaning/context of the word or it is one of many to come hijacking of words and terms that will be redefined to mean whatever the utterer wants it to mean.

    This is going to be one rhetorically violent year.

  229. beerBoy says:

    At first it may seem paradoxical that someone who has demonstrated his delight in the usage of arcane and multi-syllabic words as an effort to bolster his partisan rhetoric but, upon closer examination it is unsurprising that aislander would dismiss anyone who made use of a specific word.

    This is symptomatic of the kind of anti-intellectualism that is part and parcel of the regressive movement. Typical of this ideologically confined individual, he is an intellect with no curiosity as he already knows the “truth” and thus is only utilizing his intelligence to ferret out factoids – taken out of context – that support his sophistic, soporific, sophomoric attempts to baffle with bullshi.

  230. SCORPION says:

    Cavil – dictionary time… I got what you meant and I fully expect differences as we are individuals who have different experiences. I say this not because I know you are aware of this but because others appear not to be.

  231. SCORPION says:

    wow, and so it begins…

    or did it ever end…?

  232. Bandito says:

    Is that all you people ever do is bicker? You’re worse than the politicians this letter writer wants to fire. The moderator should delete most of these comments. How about some adult supervision TNT!?

  233. Aislander –
    ‘problem’ this from the sun-source of what progressives mean?

    If you could read properly you may have noticed that my use of ‘Eurocentric’ was a slam against Europe NOT America.

    ‘culture and race’ The fact is that America is a blend of many races and many cultures. That is one on the things that make America America.

    Yes Bandito, this blog is a microcosm of the Nation.

  234. amJames says:

    Amazing, my comment to Jr. (ehill) about his “clever comeback” to aislander was deleted.

    .

    Goota chuckle at the 5:54 am post… the hypocrisy continues, and the persoanl attack too. Talk about “overuse of Big College Words “… LMAO kettle.

  235. amJames says:

    Mr. 5:54, remember this ???

    December 16, 2010 at 8:41 am
    People who employ pop psychology to put down “the other side” seem to be unaware of their own projection.
    Who does that?

    The beat goes on.

  236. SilliCavilli says:

    A.I. Slander, your vociferous protestations to the observation that your Anglogenic comment may have been a racist declaration seems to be an untenable caviler of truth and decency.

    caviler noun
    ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from French caviller, from Latin cavillari, from cavilla ‘mockery.’

    If you truly meant nothing racial by your Anglogenic remarks, then answer this A.I. Slander(er):

    How would YOU define the most significant differences between Anglogenic and Afrogenic? The “most significant and observable” differences only please. We don’t need a book. (Or a series of numerous comments akin to a book.)

    This should be easy for one who was so persistent in demanding others define the differences between Hitler and Stalin.

    And in deference to your – tsk – level of education, I will tell you that “Afro” refers to Africa.

  237. snail trail alert

  238. aislander says:

    -genic: producing or produced by. The most significant differences? Er…one refers to England and the other to Africa? Or am I missing some deeper–more racist–meaning?

    I think you’re going down(e)hill fast…

    Oh, and xring, while you may have been the source of the use of “Eurocentric”–a word freighted with subtext–it was filtered through Jr…

  239. Wrong again, Larry

    Why don’t you stick to managing your half dozen names and leave the rest of us alone?

    he who acuses is guilty.

  240. What is clearly funny is how one person can upset the apple cart by poking the right monkey in the zoo.

    My hat is off to you, whoever you are, except when you parody me.

    You definitely chose the most paranoid of the paranoid

  241. Then aislander chirps in – knowing that “ehill” is me and I am “silli”…

    That must make “aislander”, “larryfine”

    No wait….”ehill” is my son (who has no interest in politics) and I am the father, therefore I am ehill’s Dath Vader, or something of the sort.

  242. another monkey alert!

  243. aislander says:

    Thanks for reminding me, SC! Now that you bring it up, no one ever provided a satisfactory exposition of the differences between the regimes of Hitler and Stalin.

    And I KNOW they were vastly different–opposites, in fact. Everyone says so…

  244. “no one ever provided a satisfactory exposition of the differences between the regimes of Hitler and Stalin.”

    I guess the retention of private property as opposed to its confiscation doesn’t count.

  245. aislander says:

    Would anyone like to provide a rationale that hasn’t been addressed up-thread and debunked?

  246. (ai)SLANDER, why are you trying so desperately to change the subject? (Back to one that has already been discussed and exhausted of all issues and further discussion.)

    Could it be because you have not answered the question of SilliCavilli, and you don’t want to! Or are afraid to?

    Remember when YOU wrote:

    (ai)SLANDER says: Jan. 1, 2012 at 1:16 pm  – Anybody who even uses words such as “Eurocentric” immediately forfeits ALL credibility,,,

    As does anyone who creates a word like “Anglogenic” and misuses and misspells the word “Amerocentric.” Twice as much, since you use it to make a White America Only reference.

    Anglo = Engliand/English

    genic = of genes

    Thus meaning people whose genes are of English origin, hence Whitest of White people making-up the Anglogenic Culture you claim is Amerocentric.

    Americentrism (when spelled correctly) is a term referring to the ethnocentric and xenophobic practice of viewing the world from an explicitly American perspective, with an implied belief, either consciously or subconsciously, in the preeminence of American (and, more generally, of Western) culture.

    And specifically also in your qualifying Anglogenic case, the preeminence of White people who YOU claim make up the Culture of America.

    Remember what YOU wrote:

    (ai)SLANDER says: Jan. 1, 2012 at 6:21 pm –  I would proudly assert that OUR culture is Anglogenic, if I may coin yet another word, yet strongly Amerocentric, taking in as it does influences from all those who have immigrated here…

    We are still waiting for YOU to…

    Please tell us the difference between Anglogenic and Afrogenic and how they each relate to your view of Americentrism.

    And then, how about expounding upon Asiagenic, Hispanagenic, Latinogenic… and how they and others fit with your Americentric view.

  247. Aslinder,
    Why don’t YOU attempt to edify we poor under educated petit-bourgeoisie with your vast knowledge of Anglogenic, anti-Eurocentric college buzzwords?

    PS: Translation services will be provided.

  248. X6. “monkey alert”? Really!

  249. aislander says:

    Latest alt: look the suffix -genic on, oh I don’t know, dictionary.com. Never mind: I’ll do it for you.

    -genic

    a combining form often corresponding to nouns ending in -gen or -geny, with the following senses: “producing or causing” ( hallucinogenic ); “produced or caused by” ( cosmogenic ); “pertaining to a gene or genes” ( polygenic ); “pertaining to suitability for reproduction by a medium” ( telegenic ).

  250. aislander says:

    Now: about Hitler and Stalin (a subject that was never “exhausted” because no one showed how communism and fascism are different in operation–or at least different enough to justify being viewed as polar opposites). Speaking of desperate to avoid something…

    I feel rather flattered that I have become the subject of this much attention by so many lefties and their alts…

    But, to address ONE of your many cavils, since -genic means (in this usage) “producing or causing,” Anglogenic refers to the source of our American culture, while Afrogenic would be incorrect since Africa is a contributor to our culture, but hardly the source. If you really wanted to know…

    And you’re criticizing my spelling? Really?

  251. aislander says:

    By the way, I didn’t get any dictionary results when I entered “Americentric,” either. I guess, since we’re BOTH coining words, we can spell them any way we want…

  252. SCORPION says:

    note to self – before I challenge any poster on their use of language…

    1-read for comprehension
    2-attempt to understand the post from the posters point of view and…
    3-know what I am talking about if I am foolish enough to go all in and challenge…

    That’s a good start ;)

  253. aislander says:

    SCORPION: I DID find “Americentric” on Google, but it is a libel of America, so I’ll continue to use “Amerocentric” (if necessary) because I feel that I gave the word a positive connotation.

    That all reinforces my longstanding opinion that lefties don’t really like America. Don’t get me wrong: they profess to love the country, but wish only to change everything about it, including its basic nature.

    Try that with your significant other. Tell that person how much you love him or her, but how much better it would be if only everything about him were different…

  254. SCORPIOS says:

    SCORPION says: Jan. 2, 2012 at 2:13 pm  -> note to self – before I challenge any poster on their use of language…

    1-read for comprehension

    2-attempt to understand the post from the posters point of view and…

    3-know what I am talking about if I am foolish enough to go all in and challenge…

    —>>> GOOD advice SCORPI-BRO!

    (ai)slander says: Jan. 2, 2012 at 2:03 pm ->  By the way, I didn’t get any dictionary results when I entered “Americentric,”

    (ai)slander says: Jan. 2, 2012 at 2:25 pm ->  SCORPION: I DID find “Americentric” on Google,

    —>>> TOO BAD (ai)slander didn’t (and doesn’t) follow your advice.

    As to the subject of the Aglogenic/Afrogenic question. Are you, the minions of (ai)slander going to let him get away with that. After all his harping upon supposedly not getting a clear answer on his silly Hitler/Stalin issue, you are going to let your LEADER (ai)slander get away with this kind of obvious DOUBLE-STANDARD.

    Do as (ai)slander says, but not as (ai)slander does? That is your group standard?

    So be it, in your little Soviet Republic of the Thread, with Chairman (ai)slander calling the shots for you. Come to (ai)slander’s aid. Justify (ai)slander’s duplicity. Show yourself for who you are, (ai)slander’s little lap-dogs.

    Many of the rest of us, who are not your little followers, would like to know how your Anglogenic = Amerocentric statement does not mean Whites of English Origin who, as you say, control the Culture of American as xenophobes?

    Splain it to us bro!

  255. aislander says:

    Twenty-two minutes not enough time for YOU to do a Google search, alt? It obviously was for me. Google IS different from a dictionary, no?

    Getting a little hysterical, by the way?

  256. “a rationale that hasn’t been addressed up-thread and debunked”

    It wasn’t debunked.

  257. aislander says:

    SCORP: I might add to your advice to my many admirers not only to read read for comprehension, but to write for comprehensibility. Their prose is terrible!

  258. “lefties don’t really like America”

    After being outraged at how the left attempts to define conservatives, you try to define “the left”?? Mr Pot, may I introduce you to Mr Kettle?

    Seems to me that you profess to love your country, but you hate your fellow Americans.

  259. SCORPION says:

    “Try that with your significant other. Tell that person how much you love him or her, but how much better it would be if only everything about him were different…”

    Uhh, no… my couch ain’t that comfortable. ;)

  260. aislander says:

    So, SCORP, I take it you mean that wanting to change everything about someone or something means you really don’t like that person or thing–at least as they currently exist. Yeah, that’s what I think, too…

  261. SCORPION says:

    My obnoxious astrological step-bro….

    The 2:03 post referred to specifically a DICTIONARY, the 2:25 post referred to google (a wider, more broad-based search where you can enter the equivalent of a butt-keyboard-input and get a result from some far reaches of the internet nether world).

    I believe you clearly missed Step-1, which lead to a collapse of Step-2 and only blind faith lead you to engage Step-3.

    As for the rest of the post, I can’t stop laughing. I can’t pass Step-1… it is incomprehensible.

    LMAO

  262. “wanting to change everything about someone or something means you really don’t like that person or thing–at least as they currently exist.”

    Since nobody has said they want to change everything about this country, that’s nothing but a strawman argument.

  263. aislander says:

    One can judge only by actions, huh, SCORP?

  264. SCORPION says:

    Actually aislander I have a little cavil with your position.

    I like, even love my wife but if I were to hold the position that if she just looked like ohhh, Kim Kardashian, JLo, Selma Hayek… you get where I am going, that I would love her just the same.

    She on the other hand would not think that way. As in the case of Kim Kardashian, no honey your butt is not firm nor ample enough. Couch… ahh no, motel.

    I think these people do believe they like, even love America (current wife). Their actions and desires for something different than what they have (Selma Hayek… Europe… same difference) tell us otherwise.

  265. SCORPION says:

    Words, as has been clearly demostrated can mean anything the utterer wants it to mean.

    Actions on the other hand leave no doubt as to intent.

  266. aislander says:

    Fair enough, but, as I say, one can judge only by actions. Whatever rationalizations they might use with themselves are irrelevant to me.

    The difference is that I can TELL that Kim Kardashian has a fantastic, gravity-defying ass, but, given the failure of progressive policies everywhere they’ve been tried (especially in Europe), I would liken it to wanting to replace my wife with, say, Roseanne Barr, and telling myself it’s Kim Kardashian I’m lusting after…

  267. “One can judge only by actions”

    Nice try at moving the goalposts. Think anyone noticed?

  268. aislander says:

    SCORP: I posted my 4:34 before I saw your 4:29…

  269. SCORPION says:

    We’re moving along the same path… I just wanted to use the word ‘cavil’ since it caused so much of a dust up on this board. I got a raise xring and spending $3.00 on my words.

  270. (ai)slander says: Jan. 2, 2012 at 3:24 pm  = Twenty-two minutes not enough time for YOU to do a Google search, alt? It obviously was for me. Google IS different from a dictionary, no?

    Are you daft (ai)slander? Even I could see that SCORPIOS didn’t need to do a Google search for the definition of Americenticism.

    At 1:32 PM Thade had already posted the Googled Wiki definition of:

    “Americentrism (when spelled correctly) is a term referring to the ethnocentric and xenophobic practice of viewing the world from an explicitly American perspective, with an implied belief, either consciously or subconsciously, in the preeminence of American (and, more generally, of Western) culture.”

    Thade did change/add a couple words, but its clear it is the Wiki definition that you couldn’t find until 2:25 PM. But, you still didn’t connect the dots did you? You and your little pal SCORPION might have figured it out if you had done any “comprehensive reading” of Thade’s post. But you didn’t, did you?

    Both you and your little pal skipped SCORPION’s own Step 1 didn’t you? YES you did and I am LMAO!!! You guys are so genuinely comical!!! I find myself LAUGHING at everything the two of you write, but this was the topper so far. Funny boys!

    Still, you (ai)slander, have not in the least, posted anything here in any of your multitude of “hysterical” comments that disproves the fact that your Anglogenic comment is a xenophobic comment of a fairly typical white supremacist mentality, and therefor, without proof to the countrary, you may be a racist along with your little pal SCORPION.

    KKKooky!

  271. aislander says:

    So…got any more typical lefty boilerplate?

    Racism! Xenophobia!

    There’s that wolf again…

    Heard it ALL before, but that still doesn’t make it mean anything…

    Refute that American culture springs from British culture or go pound sand.

  272. JamesKirk says:

    This is Admiral Kirk. We tried it once your way, A.I Slander, are you game for a rematch?

    A.I. Slander, I’m laughing at the “inferior intellect.”

    Try answering the question about your Anglogenic comment rather that deflecting and ducking it like a Klingon Targ!

  273. SCORPION says:

    Ok, from the post is racist to the person is racist… you really do have nothing.

    Since we like steps, how about some rules… you know for radicals.

    5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.”

    Very good use of ridicule with your posts… not very effective as we are on an anonymous board and ridiculing another anonymous person… really?

    6. “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.”

    You do sound like you are having fun in that little mind of yours (a little application of Rule #5.

    7. “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time….”

    A couple of different tactics used on this thread. Since TNT did not post any new letters we might have to stretch this one out.

    8. “Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose.”

    I am game if you are game…. But you gotta come up with something new, the boredom is already setting in.

    9. “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.”

    Since I know you have nothing, the threat really aint a whole lot either.

    13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’…

    I feel honored to have been chosen as a target… Bring it on butches!!! ;)

  274. aislander says:

    alt: You have anything else? Asked and answered…but here it is, and, for me, the last time:

    Anglo-: of England or the English.

    -genic: produced by or from

    Amerocentric: From the point of view of what’s good for America, and that America is more important to Americans than any other place and American culture is superior to and more important than any other culture.

    Now, go ahead and ignore this answer, but thanks for giving me the opportunity to reiterate it.

  275. aislander says:

    Thanks for the refresher on Alinsky, SCORP! Although I’ve enjoyed the opportunity to state and restate my case, I think I’ll speak to the online editor and the webmaster tomorrow about the proliferation of alts…

  276. SCORPION says:

    The alts are coming out of the pixel works, they universally focused on you and I even voice a cavil with one of your positions but the wrath of Saul was thrusted upon me also.

    I was actually thinking of having a blog for my business and allowing comments to be posted. But this experience has forced me to take a second look. The classic 10% of the people cause 90% of your headaches apply here.

    The alts – This is actually a tactic used to destroy a discussion board. A group creates so many monikers, they flood the board with nonsense, continue until the ‘regulars’ disappear and then they disappear. What I am unsure of, since I am genetically incapable of thinking like a progressive, is why the TNT is a target? It’s either organized or it’s really is a very, very sick person. I’m talking Western State (not kidding either).

    The online editor – delete post is the one way to send a message. The response is for the progressives is to double-down, extend the assault or simply move on (.org) to another target. The drawback is obvious. The thread loses its flow and posters have to work too hard to have a discussion. A simple example is the payroll tax thread that I know two of your post were removed and it threw the thread off… way off.

    The webmaster – they can prevent a person from posting without shutting down the account. Basically block the post from display until approved by a human… if at all. That takes care of people one at a time as they offend.

    If they can identify a ‘single person’ as the problem with multiple alts and it appears to come from a single IP address they can block that address at the firewall. Preventing the person from creating multiple accounts. Drawbacks are many

    If they don’t know they have a problem, they do now…?

  277. aislander says:

    I guess muck was offended by all the alts and their guerrilla tactics, since his monicker seemed to stop posting about the same time they appeared.

    Only so much time in a day, I guess…

  278. Ah….Scorpion…..

    You are talking about a forum where a Conservative commenter used an email address that was faked with another person’s real name.

    Ethics is the issue at hand, and some people have none.

    False accusations come under that category also.

  279. aislander says:

    Times six. Huh…

  280. muckibr says:

    Actually aislander, I have been out of town, out of country, for a few days, welcoming in the New Year in a different time zone. When I got back online and saw all the, um, activity(?) I decided to lay low for a bit to try to figure things out. Looks like it’s been an interesting few days, eh?

  281. amJames says:

    This really has become quite the spectacle.
    I don’t mind a slug or two in my yard. They are useful, in that, they remind us there are critters that will devour as much of your produce as you allow them.

    Thanks to Scorpion and aislander for attempting to keep the thread on topic.

    Alt_nos, on the other hand… so sad.

  282. aislander says:

    It’s actually been kind of fun to have my positions willfully misinterpreted and then to have to restate them five ways from Sunday (or however that goes).

    But I would agree with SCORP about the clinically insane part…

  283. SCORPION says:

    When they ask you to compare ‘Anglo’ to ‘Afro’ thingy, it was a variation of…

    “3. “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)”

    This one is used quite a bit. They know you rule in one area, begin a subtle shift away from that subject.

    “4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

    Atta used this in an attempt to apply the ‘Steps’ I used earlier on us.

    This episode has caused me to revisit the Allinsky rules. Expect them or variations of them to be used over the next 10 months.

  284. beerBoy says:

    aislander – explain how this is “libel on America”

    Americentrism is a term referring to the ethnocentric and xenophobic practice of viewing the world from an explicitly American perspective, with an implied belief, either consciously or subconsciously, in the preeminence of American (and, more generally, of Western) culture.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americentrism

    And then explain how your version of word policing for political correctness is in anyway enhancing freedom of expression.

  285. Why did I, the alleged hardcore liberal, not know who “Alinsky” was until a conservative brought him up during Obama’s run to the White House?

    If “Alinsky” was the liberal god claimed, you’d think I’d know.

    Probably just another boogeyman.

    Ask amJames about boogeymen. He has them living in his head.

  286. muckibr – taking a vacation isn’t allowed. You are supposed to be online 24/7 and if you are not, you are someone else that is.

    Hope you had a nice time, even though you were someone else that you don’t know.

  287. Bandito says:

    @xring

    I disagree. This blog is not a microcosm of the Nation. This blog is out of control. The ‘regulars’ bicker uncontrollably over the most insignificant minutia. Every letter turns into the same sophomoric argument. The topic is hijacked after the third posted comment. Look around. This nonsense is not tolerated on other news sites. The TNT moderator (if indeed there is one) is asleep at the switch. He should have deleted 80% of the posted comments to this letter alone and put several users ‘regulars’ on notice for their behavior. The News Tribune should be embarrassed by what they’ve allowed to go on here. They need to impose strict limits as to access, content and number of posts per legitimate user per letter. This is nothing more than a glorified chat room that is monopolized by a few self centered users.

    Read more here: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/12/27/fire-all-of-them/#comments#storylink=cpy

  288. Bandito says:

    I disagree. This blog is not a microcosm of the Nation. This blog is out of control. The ‘regulars’ bicker uncontrollably over the most insignificant minutia. Every letter turns into the same sophomoric argument. The topic is hijacked after the third posted comment. Look around. This nonsense is not tolerated on other news sites. The TNT moderator (if indeed there is one) is asleep at the switch. He should have deleted 80% of the posted comments to this letter alone and put several users ‘regulars’ on notice for their behavior. The News Tribune should be embarrassed by what they’ve allowed to go on here. They need to impose strict limits as to access, content and number of posts per legitimate user per letter. This is nothing more than a glorified chat room that is monopolized by a few self centered users.

  289. aislander says:

    Yep. attar (et al?) are the virtuous ones! Speech and thought control for everyone else…

  290. aislander says:

    My primary…er…objection, beerBoy is the use of the word “xenophobic.” One may revere his own country without fearing and hating foreigners.

  291. beerBoy says:

    ….that definition of Americentric did not imply that reverence for country was the only determining variable. There are other terms – “patriotic” is one – that don’t require xenophobia.

    Perhaps what is bothering you is that any of these -centric words can tend to be seen as describing folks with a rather blinkered perception and – patriot that you are – any word with the root “Ameri” you believe should be exceptionally positive.

  292. X6, after reviewing the threads again this morning, I may just decide to take a permanent vacation from these topics.

    I saw this above:

    X6 2/2 11:12 am “Wrong again, Larry Why don’t you stick to managing your half dozen names and leave the rest of us alone?”

    And, I recall reading on another thread in which amJames welcomed you as a newcomer.

    But, I thought I read on yet another where beerBoy wrote that amJim who changed names to amJames is Larry.

    And, there was also a mention on a thread by Vox_ that “Larry” was or could be the creator of several of the usernames.

    Who is Larry? (I mean, besides the Larry P. Hill name that has been mentioned by amJim above? I thought I might have known before, but now I’m not so sure.)

  293. X6, after re-reveiwing the threads this morning, I may just take a permanent vacation from these forums.

  294. aislander says:

    The first descriptive words in the definition I saw were “ethnocentric” and “xenophobic.” Not too much room for misinterpretation, which is why I prefer my neologism…

  295. aislander says:

    One may be a “hardcore liberal,” X6, without being a revolutionary. I don’t know your age, but if you have been in the educational system in the last thirty-five years or so, you have beyond a doubt, been exposed to Alinsky practices without being told that’s what they were.

    There ARE plenty of revolutionaries in academia, so Alinsky is passed on first, second, or third hand to their innocent victims.

    His book, if you haven’t heard of it, is called Rules for Radicals, and, if you have watched any Sunday news shows in the last few decades, you have seen his methods employed by various guests on those programs….

  296. aislander says:

    Sorry. The italics wouldn’t close.

  297. aislander says:

    Got ‘em…

  298. Gladiator says:

    Are you not entertained?

    Are you not entertained!

    Is this not why you come here?

  299. beerBoy says:

    aislander – your 3rd generation Alinsky argument is classic conspiracy theory claptrap.

    There ARE plenty of revolutionaries in academia
    Wow, that is a page right out of the Maoist McCarthy David Horowitz’s handbook: “I have a list of names right here….”

    Define “plenty”. And after that, give me that list.

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