Letters to the Editor

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CHRISTMAS: Atheists go too far

Letter by Lyle Laws, Puyallup on Dec. 19, 2011 at 1:26 pm with 193 Comments »
December 19, 2011 1:26 pm

Let me begin by saying that I have never practiced any form of religion, organized or otherwise, and I honestly do not believe that anyone, including the pope, really knows if there is a higher power, or what, if anything, may occur after we pass away. And, yes I know that the Constitution calls for the separation of church and state.

Having said that, I think it is absolutely disgusting that so many atheists feel compelled to try to force their disdain of religion on the rest of us.

Are they trying to tell us that the beautiful carols most of us have sung since we were small children should be banned from all public places? Should those wonderful, traditional Christmas songs not be sung in public schools because they fear that children may be somehow infected by religion?

Do they really feel that the hope, joy and happiness religious traditions bring to millions of little children should be struck down by some court order? Good grief! What’s next for their truth squads? Are they going to petition the Supreme Court to rule whether the Tooth Fairy, Santa and the Easter Bunny should be officially denied?

As Frank Sinatra sang, “Some people get their kicks out of steppin’ on dreams.”

And finally, to any hard-core atheists who may be reading this, I have only one thing to say to you: “Merry Christmas.”

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  1. sandblower says:

    So now Mr. Laws is saying that the US Supreme Court Justices are athiests?
    Here is the rule of law Lyle: “The case was brought under the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause, which requires the government to be neutral toward religion, Muise said.”
    Believe it or not, we have a very diversely populated country and the founders were bright enough to realize that someday we would be more diverse than we were when they wrote the rules by which we live.

  2. surething says:

    “Having said that, I think it is absolutely disgusting that so many atheists feel compelled to try to force their disdain of religion on the rest of us.”

    Obviously you were not the kid in school that did not celebrate Christmas. It gets pretty damn lonely and humiliating when people don’t understand your customs, but shove theirs down your throat.

    Letting children feel left out is DISGUSTING, not to mention that it is not very Christian…….

  3. aislander says:

    The Constitution has no proscription against “feeling left out.” How ridiculous!

    When I went to Charles Wright, we went to chapel in the morning and sat through a short religious service–Episcopalian, I think. There were some Jewish kids who also attended chapel, and some chose to bow their heads at appropriate times and other didn’t–no big deal.

    The flip side of honoring “diversity,” is to allow the culture one is living in to follow its traditions without throwing tantrums…

  4. Here’s something for your holiday imagination: In your mind’s eye (and ear) eliminate all works of art that have anything to do with the Christian faith, lest they offend those of a different faith.

    Imagine what would be missing from the realm of classical music, painting and sculpture — and literature! Imagine the sounds at Christmas time.

    Imagine that Brave New World, that Utopia, and tell me honestly how you’d like it. Seriously. Perhaps you think it folly to imagine such a place, but the way things are moving in the world, is it really that hard to picture?

    The word, “inspiration” has it’s root in the spiritual. Art and religion are companions.

    Only the short-sighted are in favor of the cultural trends the a-religious, or a-theists, want to impose on the rest of us.

    Here’s something funny to ponder. Those who want to eliminate the word Christmas from the season’s greeting should stop to realize that even the word “holiday” is a reference to those things that are sacred, as in “holy-day?”

    Have a good one, and may you be infected by the Spirit this year in a brand new way.

  5. sandblower says:

    sozo, you are confused. Nobody is telling anyone to do away, completely, with any of that stuff. Nice try, though your examples are false. Read the establishment clause again.

  6. aislander says:

    We could replace all those pieces of art with equal numbers of even-MORE-inspiring socialist-realist works. Imagine Jesus as a heroic (if over-muscled) prole!

  7. aislander says:

    What does the establishment clause have to do with sozo’s comment? She didn’t say a thing in it about government…

  8. alindasue says:

    sandblower quoted, “The case was brought under the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause, which requires the government to be neutral toward religion…”

    Neutral means neutral; it is neither encouraging NOR DISCOURAGING any particular religion.

    People should be allowed to wear ha-jib, yarmulke, prayer shawls, a t-shirt proclaiming “there is no god” or whatever without fear of harassment. That also means that people should be able to say “Merry Christmas”, “Happy Chanukah”, “Happy Holidays”, or any other holiday or religious greeting without harassment or the “PC police” stepping in and telling them they can’t.

    aislander said, “The flip side of honoring “diversity,” is to allow the culture one is living in to follow its traditions without throwing tantrums…”

    The predominant culture is (or should be) just as much part of “diversity” as any other culture in the society. It is ALL the differences that make us diverse.

  9. sandblower says:

    “The Constitution has no proscription against “feeling left out.” How ridiculous!”
    Only to the closed minded for the following is a proscription with which you should be familiar:
    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…”

  10. sandblower says:

    “What does the establishment clause have to do with sozo’s comment? She didn’t say a thing in it about government…”
    That’s why I said she was confused. The clause is what this is all about and she dodged it putting her phony examples in instead.
    Personally, I like Santa’s clause best.

  11. aislander says:

    That is a description, (perhaps a prescription) not a proscription, sand. But never mind that.

    So…who created everyone equal, according to the Founders?

  12. igotdabombfool says:

    Actually sandblower….the first amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
    It does not say that the government must be neutral toward religion, it says that the government cannot make any laws concerning the establishment of religion. Seems to me that putting up Christmas displays isn’t making a law. Frankly, I don’t care what goes up or is set up. The only problem I have with the atheists is that all the stuff that they want to put up bashes everybody else, their religions and their beliefs, not to mention children’s fantasies. That I have a problem with. I’ve never seen a Nativity scene that said, “There is no Allah.”

  13. Lyle, You line up all of those atheists who try to force their disdain of religion on the rest of us, and I’ll line up all of the Christians who feel compelled to try to force their religion on the rest of us.

    Guess whose line would be the longest.

  14. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    They are winning the war on PC. Now members of congress can’t say Merry Christmas

    http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/political-correctness-gone-mad-congressman-cannot-say-merry-christmas-mail

    If someone says happy holidays in lieu of Merry Christmas, throw the BS flag on them and ask they say Merry Christmas. I do and they will say those magic words if you ask them to.

  15. aislander says:

    Bandito: If your line of Christians includes those who use the power of government to “force their religion” on an unwilling populace, you will have a very short line. The line of atheists and secularists who do that will reach all the way back to Madeline Murray and her 1960 lawsuit…

  16. sandblower says:

    It’s a proscription to being unequal.
    The free exercise of religion is not at risk as long as it does not take place in a facility with direct ties to the government. That is the first part of the clause and being first it prevails. Go to the church of your choice and have at it. Go home and have at it. That is how it is supposed to work.
    Why do I need to explain this simple concept?

  17. aislander says:

    Being “created equal” does not mean ending up equal. THAT is impossible…

  18. When the Christians start supporting Muslim rights to practicing their religion, we can then have a rational conversation on the issue.

    Meanwhile, I see the Christians playing a game of “I’m right, you’re wrong”.

    “So…who created everyone equal, according to the Founders?”

    “God” was the term used. Is “God” Christian? It seems to me that the Christian operating manual even recognizes that “God” predates Christianity (unless you use the escape valve of “Jesus is God”, to which the majority of the world would disagree)

    Lyle – a “hardcore” Atheist would not worry about who celebrates which Sky Fairy and how – why worry about that which doesn’t exist?

    On the other side, many Atheists are tired of religion trying to buy its way into the government for which Atheists are as financially responsible as religionists.

    To this non-theist, Christmas is about as much about religion as Republicans are about freedom. Wish me what you’d like, but don’t be offended by my response.

  19. sandblower says:

    The franked mail decision is a correct one. We draw lines all the time, some not soon enough.

  20. What atheists refuse to own is that they have a belief system of their own that is just as potent as any religous system. Like the environmentalists who make Christian evangelists look like babies.

    My little exercise, sandblower, was just that. I so wish that people could see beyond the end of their noeses…look long and hard at long-term outcomes.

    Go ahead, just for fun, use your imagination. Roll it all out over say 50 years and see what you get.

  21. “What atheists refuse to own is that they have a belief system of their own that is just as potent as any religous system.”

    A false equivilancy that is the myth of evangelical Christians.

  22. Sandblower correctly used the term “proscribe”.

  23. aislander says:

    Lefties are just trying to eliminate competitors to the worship of government…

  24. Congresspersons can say “Merry Christmas” all they’d like. They might want to consider to which constituent they are speaking.

    As to franked mail, it’s sad that someone had to remind Congress that not everyone in America celebrates Christmas and to mind their manners accordingly.

    Rules are often created when people aren’t mature enough to recognize things on their own. Take for instance, spitting in a public place….

  25. alindasue says:

    taxedenoughintacoma said, “If someone says happy holidays in lieu of Merry Christmas, throw the BS flag on them and ask they say Merry Christmas.”

    And RW98512 said, “Wish me what you’d like, but don’t be offended by my response.”

    Being “offended” is an internal response. If you don’t want to be offended, then choose not to take offense. That applies to all situations, not just holidays.

    Taxedenough, I have what I personally think is a better idea: Leave the “BS flag” at home and just respond with a sincere “Merry Christmas”. The person may respond again to you with “Merry Christmas” or may not, but without the “call BS” factor involved, the true Spirit of Christmas is more likely to shine through.

  26. It seems that sozo has a new conspiracy theory.

  27. fatecreatr says:

    An evangelical atheist is doing it wrong.

  28. Lyle – that was a classic strawman. You provide no specifics at all. Just some generalized rant about those nasty atheists who are forcing their will on everyone.

    If you miss Christmas Carols turn on the radio – there is an All Christmas channel in every market.

  29. aislander says:

    Madalyn Murray O’Hair ring a bell, beerBoy. That was the first shot and Christians didn’t fire it.

    So the questions become: Who’s on offense? Who’s trying to change things?

  30. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    Why do liberals that post here hate what is good in the world. Family values, marriage between a man and a woman, American exceptionalism, hard work, freedom, Easter, Christmas, God, and Jesus are all just a short list of their hates. Gay rights, union rights, socialism, communism, welfare for all, redistribution of wealth, hatred of God and tax the rich is their creed. I guess it’s not all their fault because liberals are bitter clingers hanging on to their false beliefs and class envy.

    To all my progressive liberal friends out there let me be the first to say I will pray for you and have a Merry Christmas.

  31. concernedtacoma7 says:

    This is just another example of an extreme left minority group (in this case athiests) disrupting and affecting the quality of life for the majority of Americans.

    Another special interest group leading policy.

    Class and honor are fading in America, lead by the far left.

    Like Lyle, I am not a practicing Christian, nor are my parents. But Christmas is a Christian holiday, nothing to do with athiests, Muslims, etc. It is a celebration and a positive event, centered on faith and giving. Why turn to into something negative?

    Merry Christmas.

  32. Atheists are a cult. A bunch of anti-religious killjoys who can’t stand to see people have a good time. That is the reason they pick other people’s holidays to make a stink.

    Their belief system is akin to the cult of Islam in their ferventness.

    Just the Atheists aren’t murdering people yet.

  33. old_benjamin says:

    U.S. Presidents up through Lincoln attended worship services in the U.S. Capitol. Perhaps the Supremes’ recent interpretation of the First Amendment is a wee bit skewed. Or should we assume moderns understand the Constitution better than those who wrote it? It’s most peculiar that the “Wall of Separation” assumed the dimensions of the Berlin Wall only in the last 50 years. As someone said, neutrality does not imply hostility. Nor does freedom of religion imply freedom from same.

  34. The kid who feels left out because his family doesn’t celebrate Christmas is a victim of his parents’ stupidity, nothing more. When I was a kid, I and most of the kids in the neighborhood never went to church, ever. Christ was not mentioned in my house unless someone was mad. We just weren’t religious, but the folks and extended family used a Christian holiday as a reason to give gifts and get together, everyone had a good time and ate too much. For those of another religion, you only need to look to the Jews. Hanukkah is not a particularly important holiday on the Jewish calendar, but who wants to be left out of a perfectly good party? People who can’t think of any reason to party with the Christians and Jews are most likely just trying to make a statement, anyway, and it’s a shame that many of them use their kids as tools.

  35. aislander says:

    test

  36. aislander says:

    So this is what sand was saying about the concept of all people’s being created equal? Get outta here you knucklehead!

    pro·scribe
    [proh-skrahyb] Show IPA
    verb (used with object), -scribed, -scrib·ing.
    1.
    to denounce or condemn (a thing) as dangerous or harmful; prohibit.
    2.
    to put outside the protection of the law; outlaw.
    3.
    to banish or exile.
    4.
    to announce the name of (a person) as condemned to death and subject to confiscation of property.

  37. took14theteam says:

    I read you AI.

  38. “So…who created everyone equal, according to the Founders?”
    aislander

    That would be… The creator?

  39. took14theteam says:

    And that is why the _nos was behind that word 1000%.

  40. surething says:

    “The kid who feels left out because his family doesn’t celebrate Christmas is a victim of his parents’ stupidity, nothing more.”

    Another example of good Christian thinking.

    I cannot even believe a human being thinks that.

  41. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Ok, Sure, whose responsibility is it?

    This country’s majority still practices Christianity.

  42. surething: “Another example of good Christian thinking. I cannot even believe a human being thinks that.”

    Man, that is hilarious! I tell you that I’m not a Christian, and get scolded for my “good Christian thinking”!

    Well, sure thing, you just scored the “Fail of the Week”. :)

  43. aislander says:

    Exactly my point, dejen2, which is why I found it so hilarious that a lefty Christophobe would cite that particular text…

  44. “The kid who feels left out because his family doesn’t celebrate Christmas is a victim of his parents’ stupidity, nothing more.” Another example of good Christian thinking. I cannot even believe a human being thinks that.
    surething says: Dec. 19, 2011 at 6:34 pm

    His parents’ probably think they are smart but the parents’ have failed.
    This child should never have felt left out. He should have been taught that people are different and they believe different things. Whether you agree with it or not they have a right to their beliefs and you yours.

    Instead the parents’ have forced their beliefs on the child (not uncommon)and have taught them to be excluded from people who believe different. Christmas is a national holiday in the US and celebrated the world over.

  45. aislander: Just trying to keep up. :)

  46. surething says:

    Lanq:

    I actually meant that in general, not directed towards you personally. I should have specified that.

    Buuuuuuut…….

    “but the folks and extended family used a Christian holiday as a reason to give gifts and get together”.

    So you and your family just USE another persons Sacred Holiday as a reason to get gifts and party?

    You just scored “CLASS ACT of the month”.

  47. bobcat1a says:

    According to Sozo, i suppose not believing in sasquatch or leprechauns is exactly equivalent to believing in sasquatch or leprechauns. That’s not remotely sensible.

  48. ReadNLearn says:

    Why do they lie and call themselves ‘atheists’?

    They never go after Moslems and their activities so it’s a lie. The ‘atheists’ are simply anti-Christians.

    Now one funny thing-Atheists are the best proof there is a God. They’re angry, furious about anything that celebrates and honors God yet they claim God doesn’t exist.

    Does anyone get upset about the Ancient Greek Gods? As a Christian, Bullfinch’s Mythology is merely about some silly, ancient stories and I’m not threatened by them.

  49. ReadNLearn says:

    BTW, the vast majority of male atheists are homosexual…could it be that somehow their hatred toward the Christian God has much to do with that?

  50. surething: “So you and your family just USE another persons Sacred Holiday as a reason to get gifts and party?”

    That’s right, you see, my folks weren’t bitter little chumps, and they saw no reason to deny their kids the same fun everyone else was having for the purpose of making some idiot personal statement.

    surething: “You just scored “CLASS ACT of the month”.”

    Thanks for noticing. If I’d have had bitter atheist parents, I may have turned out as an angry and jealous liberal twit. My folks were, however, class acts, and I enjoy the Christmas season. Being non-religious does not mean you can’t enjoy the mood. I’m neither Irish, nor Catholic, but I always seem to wear green and drink a green one on Saint Patrick’s day. You need to lighten up, homes.

  51. yabetchya says:

    In this day in age, I say let it all out. Let all religions and nonbelievers have there say or not, have banners, flags, signs. It really is a non issue, because in America you have the RIGHT to BELIEVE or NOT.
    It is the retail market that chooses to extort, abuse, the season. Do not blame all Christians for the extortion of the meaning of Christmas, Maybe it might be (OH NO) those union operated stores who are looking for the profit.
    Please don’t tell me that the non-believers are not taking advantage of the CHRISTMAS sales, they are.
    I want to wish you all a Merry Christmas
    from the bottem of my heart ~~~~~~~~~~~~~!

  52. bobcat: “According to Sozo, i suppose not believing in sasquatch or leprechauns is exactly equivalent to believing in sasquatch or leprechauns. That’s not remotely sensible.”

    People can believe or not believe in something all they want, but whey they insist that something that cannot be proven or dis-proven is false, as do atheists, that requires a belief based on faith alone. Thus, atheism is a religion.

  53. aislander says:

    And, lanq, people who don’t believe in Sasquatch or leprechauns do not pursue those who do in order to vent their spleen about their beliefs. Dare I say that atheists attack religion–especially Christianity–with religious fervor…

  54. aislander says:

    I shouldn’t generalize.

    Some flamboyant, prominent, obtrusive, atheists, who are ostentatious in their lack of belief, pursue believers to vent their spleen…

    Not all atheists…

    I’m sure…

  55. Just trying to figure out whether the general ire being vented in this discussion is philosophically generated, or whether it is an attempt to show off and be quoted in the the Trib’s front web page….

    Merry Christmas, y’all!

  56. sandblower says:

    And with all that has gone on since my last post……., yet I am blocked. Go figure.

  57. aislander says:

    So am I, dejen2, but it’s a constant struggle…

  58. ReadNLearn “BTW, the vast majority of male atheists are homosexual…could it be that somehow their hatred toward the Christian God has much to do with that?”

    Where is your PROOF on that statement? If you can prove it, let’s see it. Put up, or shut up!

  59. lanq: “I’m neither Irish, nor Catholic, but I always seem to wear green and drink a green one on Saint Patrick’s day.”

    As an Irish Catholic myself, I’d like to say for the clan, we would very much appreciate it if you, lanq, would NOT defile our Holiday. Thank you for staying away that day. Slainte!

  60. sandblower says:

    islander, I knew you wouldn’t get it. It’s created equal forever, not simply at the beginning as you and the rest of your cohorts profess. That all men are created equal is a proscription of the idea that all men are not created equal. See how easy that is. And wow is the only word I have for the pronunciation that most atheists are homosexual. The basis for that claim is…….?

  61. “The kid who feels left out because his family doesn’t celebrate Christmas is a victim of his parents’ stupidity, nothing more.”

    That’s the definition of Conservative Republican Family Values is it not?

  62. lanq: “A shame that evolution left you behind.”

    You’re a Conservative Republican, right? What do you know about evolution. You guys are Creationists aren’t you?

  63. mcuk: “That’s the definition of Conservative Republican Family Values is it not?”

    No, actually, it’s called “lanq’s opinion”. You seem to think that everything written here must be inspired by political philosophy. That’s very enlightening regarding the content of your own comments. You see, most people don’t need people to lead them by the hand through life.

  64. aislander says:

    So…sand…are you saying that some government entity should stalk all of us for our entire lives to make certain we all have exactly the same stuff? Sounds like a nightmare to me…

    But, if you are saying we have equality before the law, I have no quibble with that.

  65. aislander says:

    And lanq: you’re right. Some parents ARE better than others, so I suppose sand would have the government raise all children so that they get an equal start.

    B-b-but, what if ONE of the kids has an experience that is transformative (for better or worse)? OH NO! He’s not equal to the other Stepford kids! Perhaps we should perform a retroactive abortion–it IS the sacrament of feminism after all, and feminism IS one the main branches of our progressive religion. We’re all SO confused…

  66. Lyle’s letter is entitled “Atheists go to far”, and he says that “I think it is absolutely disgusting that so many atheists feel compelled to try to force their disdain of religion on the rest of us.”

    And, speaking of the disdain that Christians have for non-Christians, Pat Robertson says, “There will never be world peace until God’s house and God’s people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humnaists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?” {Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p.227}.

    And evidently, aislander is right on track, in his scoffing at feminism. Pat Robertson says that, “Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”

    So its no surprise that America is so politically and religiously polarized, with all the hyperbole, hostility and outright lies spewed by political and religious leaders, all of which are reflected in the postings of the peoples here.

    Meanwhile, ReadNLearn in his 7:51 post says: “BTW, the vast majority of male atheists are homosexual.”

    Sigh.

    And Merry Christmas.., I guess.

  67. aislander says:

    Sorry I expressed disdain for your religion, cirrus…

  68. Sandy,
    A few years ago SeaTac Airport put up a Holiday Display that included Jewish and Kwanza items.
    The wholes of protest could be heard in half way to Portland.
    Interesting how the sect that defends Yule Tide is the one that condemns All Hallows Eve.
    Aislander,
    The whole idea of honoring diversity is to allow all cultures to follow its traditions without throwing tantrums or causing harm. (Unless of course the tradition does harm others)
    Sozo, atheists trying to force their beliefs Christians is as wrong as Christians trying to force their
    beliefs on others.
    I do agree that much of Western Art came to be because of Man’s attempts to Glorify God and other religious beings.

    We could replace . . . Aislander remember D I V E R S I TY.
    Sozo – not all holy days are Christian Holy Days.
    Aislander – What say we set this one out and let Sandy and Igotda go at it.

  69. Taxed, here’s you bs flag back – use it to wipe the egg off your face.

    No one is trying to tell you that you can’t wish someone a Merry Christmas.

    Although. it might be a rather awkward thing to say to a non-Christian.

    Rest of the Story : Members of Congress may not use the term ‘Merry Christmas’ IN FRANKDED OR OFFICAL MAIL. They may still use ‘Happy Holidays’. See Sandblower’s comment above on the Establishment Clause.

    Happy Holiday = Merry Christmas + Happy New Year + Hadaka + Happy Kwanzaa + anything else I forgot to add

    Taxed – (at 4:49) the question in not why do liberals hate, it is WHY DO YOU HATE LIBERALS.

    Your short lists are not only wrong but are nonsensical.

    RW – Not even all Christians celebrate Christmas.

    Dejen, Concerned, Taxed and others; Why do Christians hate Halloween?

  70. Lanq – ever hear of sarcasm?

    R-N-L- (Bullfinch’s Mythology) -to Muslims the New Testament is the misguided work of man and not the Devine Word of God.

  71. HistoryFan says:

    Lyle says: “And, yes I know that the Constitution calls for the separation of church and state.

    I hate to break this very big MISCONCEPTION but (drum roll here), it is not there.

    Ever notice the Atheists are hate filled when it comes to talking about God. It is as if there is something about God that makes them act so repulsive. Maybe they internally know there is something to believe but won’t acknowledge it so they attack.

    God Bless Them (sincerely)

  72. harleyrider1 says:

    Wow people.

    Riding on the back roads of America, where bickering is not seen constantly in print, heard even less and more flags are flown, brings back a day when Americans could debate without malevolence.

    This is why some of us like to get on the Harley and ride. One hears only the wind, the occasional roar of the bike, and enjoys the smell of freedom.

  73. The thing about atheists that has always struck me funny is, if God doesn’t exist, which would then indicate that Jesus Christ doesn’t exist, therefore Christmas doesn’t exist, is….Why are they so constantly upset over something that isn’t! HAAA!!

    Simple fact is that MOST Americans do Christmas….End of Story, Deal with it.

    Merry Christmas, and enjoy the misery of your Bah Humbug

  74. ……and Harleyrider….I hope you have the decency to put a decent muffler on that thing….the rest of us dont necessarily want to hear your “roar” ;)

  75. ….oh, and before I go do something more productive than sit here with this stuff….As far as wishing a “non-Christian” a Merry Christmas….Well, I think MOST non-Christians take it as the simple well wish in the way that it is given.

    I truly do not believe that a Merry Christmas wish is ever intended to insult anyone….

    If you are offended by such a wish, then frankly, you are just far too full of yourself! (that of course, covers just about everyone these days it would seem!)

  76. Not sure why there is this annual frothing about atheists and how it has anything to do with celebrating a fat man in a red suit with flying reindeer and little elves by camping out all night after eating turkey to race into Wal*Mart and wrestle with other sleep-deprived consumers over the newest have to have gadgets and chopping drown trees to cover in twinkly lights so you can sing songs about a snowman coming to life and then go look at the houses decorated with blow-up dolls of Garfield the Cat in gay apparel, fa la la, fa la la, fa la la.

    Most of the ritual elements of Christmas have nothing to do with Christianity folks….

    Michigan letters complaining about Pagan Christmas decorations
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/12/mich-residents-receive-letter-calling-christmas-lights-pagan/

    I guess, if feeling victimized by nasty atheists is part of your holiday ritual that makes you feel more Christian and righteous when you are skipping Church services on Sunday so you can unwrap presents without interruption – go for it – what is a “Christian” holiday without pointing fingers at the other guys?

    http://theydontfoolme.com/477/christmas-services-cancelled/

  77. “chopping drown trees”

    Sounds like some sort of grudge band…..”Nirvana, Pearl Jam, The Smashing Pumpkins, Chopping Drown Trees”

  78. I like how ‘blower starts this whole thread with a correction to Lyle’s statement, then proceeds to “educate him”. Lyle was telling you how he felt, he didn’t ask for your opinion, or and education. Wonder why all the “Experts” here who post all the time, have so much time on their hands? It’s an opinion, get it?

  79. an education

  80. denismenis says:

    ::::sigh::::: I was hoping we’d get through Christmas without someone declaring an imaginary war. It resides in the heart, and no one can take it or issue it to you.

  81. igotdabombfool says:

    And why is Christmas offensive at all? It’s a Christian “Holiday” that was taken from Roman Paganists to attempt to lure them to the Christian faith. It’s been proven that Jesus wasn’t even born on December 25th by the Christian churches. They guess that his birthday is somewhere between September and November and not even in 1 A.D.. (Not sure about that second period)

    I even adore that fact that most atheists have no problem with Santa Claus, the fat jolly man who comes down the chimney and gives out presents to kids. I wonder how they would feel if they found out he was actually a Bishop and a Saint.

    For me, a Roman Catholic, people can believe what they want to believe. Pick your God, your religion and your holidays (holy or not) and good luck when the world ends someday. Somebody picked right.

  82. Under the category of “where is this in the census report?” –

    “BTW, the vast majority of male atheists are homosexual…could it be that somehow their hatred toward the Christian God has much to do with that?”

    I’ll never cease to be surprised at the next thing a loving Christian Family Values Conservative will say.

    “The Christian God”???????

  83. Lyle, Happy Hanukkah!

  84. Igot – this non-theist places Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, and all of the mythological deities in the same category –

    “Fun things for children”

    “Wonder why all the “Experts” here who post all the time, have so much time on their hands?”

    Maybe aislander can give us his professional “Yoda of the Blog” opinion.

  85. I’ve always chuckled at the thought of a conifer in the Middle East, beerBoy. Maybe it was just another “miracle of Christmas”

  86. pro·scribe [ prō skrb ]
    ban something: to prohibit something that is considered undesirable by those in authority
    condemn something: to denounce or condemn something
    banish somebody: to banish or exile somebody

    Yoda is schooled

  87. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The atheists are not expressing a religious belief but attempting to make a mockery out of other’s beliefs.

    The far left, supported by the ACLU, pick an annual fight, not the other way around (and it is not imagined, but is a very obvious sign of our times).

    Those making a mockery of a faith practiced by the majority of Americans have no class. Neither do those supporting them.

  88. concernedtacoma7 says:

    RW- what are the values of the anti-religion, anti-family, anti-social structure progressives?

  89. concerned7 – what are the values of strawman arguments?

    Anti-religion – see what it is like to practice Islam in the Bible Belt States.

    Anti-family – let the family fall apart if they are poor and don’t subscribe to your religion, but don’t provide government help.

    Anti-social structure – This is an interesting phrase. I’m wondering what ‘social structure’ is, if not ‘class warfare’.

    I know many non-theists. The conservatives are far more pushy against religion than the liberals. I’m wondering how you’ve pigeon-holed atheism to liberal philosophy.

    “Those making a mockery of a faith practiced by the majority of Americans have no class.”

    But the abuse of non-Christians in America is classy, eh?

    Personally, I think Christians make a mockery of Christianity, starting with the silly “war on Christmas” rhetoric that starts up every year at this time.

    If they really had faith, it would be no issue.

  90. rw: “I’ve always chuckled at the thought of a conifer in the Middle East”

    Really. I take it you’ve never heard of Lebanese Cedar. In fact, there’s a Cedar tree on their flag.

    Keep chuckling, homes. :)

  91. “Having said that, I think it is absolutely disgusting that so many atheists feel compelled to try to force their disdain of religion on the rest of us.”

    I find equally disgusting that the religious are compelled to force their believes on us.

    I’m non-religious, and yes I like Christmas music, plays and movies.

    If folks want their kids to sing Christmas music, then they can do it after school. If they want to use school facilities after school to practice and to perform, I don’t have a problem with it. I don’t even mind using taxpayer money to pay for after school activities such as Christmas choir practice.

    Heck, I would probably like to hear the performance, just after school please.

  92. No lanq, please don’t assume you know what I think. You don’t. You are incapable of doing so.

    What I seem to think is that lanq’s comment on a kid’s parents was off topic and stupid, so I made a sarcastic comment that sailed right over lanq’s shaven head.

    xring, I believe as you do that lanq probably has no concept of sarcasm, but also any other semi-complex or even fairly simple literary device.

    beerBoy, you may be thinking of Screaming Trees, an American rock band formed in Ellensburg, Washington in 1985

    igotdabombfool, I like your style! I was just going to say, anyone who is secure in his/her faith is not bothered by what the atheist say about Christmas. They can do what they like, the rest of us can celebrate our holiday whether it be Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, whatever.

    December 21, 2012 is on it’s way! Mayan doom is coming to town!

    P.S. On a somewhat related tangent, I read somewhere that most people who choose the screen name ReadNLearn are homosexual anyway. Just saying!

  93. The far left, supported by the ACLU, pick an annual fight

    Please post articles that reference specific incidents from this year.

    Lyle’s letter gives no specifics, you give no specifics….it’s like certain individuals feel the need to annual pick fights with straw men.

  94. The next thing you know, the “ACLU atheists” are going to try to ban the annual Christmas ritual of the Nutcracker!

    What I miss are those Norelco commercials with Santa going down the snow-covered mountain on an electric shaver…..damn atheists!….they ruin the true spirit of Christmas!

  95. lanq – just how many people think of cedars as Christmas trees?

  96. aislander says:

    I KNEW I should have copied that fine bottle of vintage hypocrisy! Someone, obviously, is too sensitive to be confronted with his own contradictions–wah…

    Oh, well it served its purpose…

  97. LarryFine says:

    RW98512 says:
    Dec. 19, 2011 at 3:12 pm When the Christians start supporting Muslim rights to practicing their religion…
    .
    We do, just not the jihad part… ;)

  98. LarryFine says:

    Indeed aislander… it seems to be pretty rampant from the trio lately…

  99. LarryFine says:

    RW98512 says:
    Dec. 19, 2011 at 3:12 pm When the Christians start supporting Muslim rights to practicing their religion…
    .
    We do, just not the jihad parts… ;)

  100. SandHills says:

    I may have skipped over anyone else’s post who had also stated the obvious. That atheism is a belief, a ” leap.-of-faith”, religion in and of Itself. Why do atheists want to force their beliefs on others?

  101. LarryFine says:

    More projection from Muckibr… “P.S. On a somewhat related tangent, I read somewhere that most people who choose the screen name ReadNLearn are homosexual anyway. Just saying!”

    There is a pattern… just sayin’.

  102. redfishred says:

    Let me ask you this. Do you hear more about religion or athiesism? Most athiest believe in the pure constituion that allows for anyone to believe in anything they want, not just Christianity. If anyone is pushing their thoughts and beliefs on other people, it is the religious fanatics. I am an athiest and say Merry Christmas as it is traditional, and I have heard it all of my life, just like OMG. They are just words to me however. I could care less if there is a manger scene on the court house grounds, but I want to see other religions and athiest slogans to be allowed there too. I believe in the separation of church and state and believe that there is no place in politics for religion. That is why so many immigrants came to America so that they could practice their beliefs. They were being religiously persecuted in their mother countries. This is why we have the concept of separation of church and state. If Christ was such a gentle and loving person, then why are so many Christians so hateful to other religions and athiest? Remember, Christ was supposed to be a Jew, yet so many Christians hate the Jews (like the Nazis). We need to stop the hate.

  103. “According to Sozo, i suppose not believing in sasquatch or leprechauns is exactly equivalent to believing in sasquatch or leprechauns. That’s not remotely sensible.”

    Strange bit of logic this…lanq’s response was enough said on the subject.

    Here’s a question…who lobbed the first grenades in this “war?”

    Here’s another. When you visit another country, let’s say you’re an expat living in China, and the locals celebrate a cultural holiday that includes maybe paper dragons. Do you protest because there are no such things as dragons…and no equivalent representations of your beliefs? No. You enjoy the celebration and ask a lot of quetions about the significance of this or that symbol.

    Whatever your beliefs about the founding fathers’ relgious practices, the U.S. has always embraced the rituals of Christmas as part of our culture. People of other religions might celebrate their “holy days” privately or in smaller communities and few people object, but Christmas represented (and still represents) the majority of Americans.

    Christians did not start “reacting” to the grenades thrown by anti-Christians until the invasion reached the schools and the marketplace where, in a ludicrous attempt at establishing equality, political correctness was instituted as law and we all began walking on eggshells to avoid saying the “wrong” thing lest we offend another.

    I’m with those who think that in Christ there is something atheists hate, or fear…or maybe those are the same thing. Otherwise, we would see them lobbing grenades and other religions.

    For the record, Pat Robertson does not speak for the majority of Christians so quoting him is essentially meaningless.

  104. aislander says:

    So…who’s been working at changing things: believers or secularists?

  105. aislander says:

    sozo: You beat me to the tack I was about to take! Carry on. I would say the first shot I know of was taken by atheists and their lefty allies back in 1960, with Madalyn’s lawsuit…

  106. bb: “lanq – just how many people think of cedars as Christmas trees?”

    You’re wandering off topic for the sake of justifying RW’s ignorance. Also, I don’t know why an out-of-stater feels compelled to spend an exorbitant amount of time commenting on a demo he’s not a part of.

  107. “So…who’s been working at changing things: believers or secularists?”

    The honest answer is: Both, to varying degrees.

    To say otherwise is a lie.

  108. lanq – you were the one who brought up Lebanon Cedars

    I posted a link to a story about a Mayor in the Nazareth area of Israel banning Christmas trees because he didn’t feel that Christians should be able to express their Christian (derived from Pagan) holiday rituals.

    That was in response to the letter’s claim that atheists were warring on Christmas and the lack of any specific incidents to back up that claim (but since then aislander has cited something from 50 years ago)

    And…..where in this thread is there anything that is specific to WA?

  109. The only story I have seen this season that is remotely connected to Lyle’s claim that traditional carols have been banned in public schools is the Michigan music teacher who changed the line to “don we now our merry apparel” because the second graders kept giggling when they sang “gay”.
    http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/gay_apparel_back_in_christmas.html

    And “Deck the Halls with boughs of holly” is about pagan rituals that have not biblical sources.

  110. aislander says:

    I just noted when the first shot was fired, beerBoy. Anyway, fifty years ago is not that long ago, well within the lifetimes of many current citizens.

    I would be interested in knowing what adherents of traditional American culture have been trying to change over that period of time. It seems to me we have been resisting the onslaught from those who wish to impose a different culture on the nation.

    I personally feel this is just part of the campaign to hollow out American culture so that it will be easier to impose on an individualistic country the collective vision the left so adores…

  111. And then there is T-Mobile’s Holiday musing with all those Pepto-Bismol colored elves singing about “walking in an orgy wonderland”…….OH….they are singing 4G not orgy….that makes sense. And since it is for advertising I guess it is alright they are bastardizing the lyrics cuz…they ain’t atheists, they be true believers in the Meaning of Christmas.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcYWGwQu2WI

  112. aislander, you asked the question, :“So…who’s been working at changing things: believers or secularists?”

    Now answer it. Inquiring minds want to know (if you have the courage to answer your own question.)

  113. bb: “lanq – you were the one who brought up Lebanon Cedars”

    That’s right, it was in response to RW’s ignorant statement that there are no conifers in the middle east. His comment made no reference to Israeli mayors, and I wouldn’t have cared anyway. My reply was to simply illustrate that RW had no clue of that which drew his condescension. When RW makes snarky comments, it’s usually out of ignorance.

  114. old_benjamin says:

    It’s fairly clear that the Founders intended the Supreme Court to be the least powerful branch of government. It is, of course, the branch whose members are not popularly elected. Furthermore, it has no power to compel obedience to its rulings. It is dependent upon the executive for enforcement. Andrew Jackson is credited with saying in response to one of the Marshall Court’s decisions, “Let him enforce it.” That’s the ultimate check on judicial activism run amuck.

  115. old_benjamin says:

    mea culpa–wrong thread

  116. igotdabombfool says:

    BB – And what is the meaning of Christmas?

  117. stradivari says:

    Have your Christmas celebrations. Enjoy the annual choral tradituiions like Handel’s Messiah,. Let private schools do whatever they want in regard to religion. Let public schools acknowledge religion, but do NOT buy Lyle Law’s inferred notion that government should practice religion in schools and courthouses. Christmas is inescapable. I should hope to never ever hear Silver Bells. or I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus ever again.

  118. spotted1 says:

    The problem with this whole thing is that aetheists do not want us to talk about Christmas. Yet, it is protected under the 1st amendment as free speech. So, you want me to not talk about Christmas, but others can talk about their religious holidays…if you want it fair for one side it has to be fair for all…

  119. Spiderweb says:

    “the U.S. has always embraced the rituals of Christmas as part of our culture”

    Uh, no, we haven’t:

    “In Colonial America, the Puritans of New England shared radical Protestant disapproval of Christmas. Celebration was outlawed in Boston from 1659 to 1681″

    At least one of the founding fathers didn’t seem to find it all that:

    “George Washington attacked Hessian (German) mercenaries on Christmas during the Battle of Trenton in 1777, Christmas being much more popular in Germany than in America at this time.

    And AFTER the revolution:
    “Christmas fell out of favor in the United States after the American Revolution, when it was considered an English custom.[109]”

    …good gawd people, why manufacture this “controversy” every year when there are REAL problems we face?

  120. Spiderweb says:

    quotes are from wiki, here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

  121. klthompson says:

    Incredible! It amazing how many folks will enter a battle where it is plain there will be no winner.

  122. rainwolf says:

    Excuse me, please. I am an Atheist. I do not hate Christians or believers of other faiths. I love Christmas Carols and art and music inspired by the faithful. I always answer a cheery Merry Christmas and wish others a happy holiday of their choice. I am not a hater with an agenda, I am just an atheist.
    Thank you.

  123. And what is the meaning of Christmas?

    Really depends upon who you are talking to. For the economy it is the major shopping season, for ballet companies it is paying for the rest of the season with the annual Nutcracker, for television it is Christmas specials, for some it is Norman Rockwell versions of family get togethers (which rarely are so Norman Rockwell in reality). And, for a few, it is a religious holiday.

  124. rainwolf, I would guess that your attitude represents the vast, mostly silent majority of atheists, and I appreciate you sharing that with us. The vocal minority are the ones making an issue over Christmas, as it always seems to be.

    I wish you a very Happy Holiday and Happy New Year rainwolf!

  125. igotdabombfool says:

    And, for a few, it is a religious holiday.

    2 to 3 billion people. About a third of the world’s population. Just a few.

  126. Again bBoy, you presume things based on your own cynical view of the world. Trust me, for far more than “a few” see Christmas is a religious and spiritual experience, every single year. Easter too.

    As for freedom of speech, the atheists are free to say whatever they like. That’s not what they do. They attempt to prevent believers from their right to believe!

    aislander, yes I was thinking of M.Murray as I wrote this morning. She was a piece of work; lovely old gal.

  127. 2 to 3 billion people.

    How many of them make Christmas primarily about Jesus’ birth and not the trees, wreaths, gifts and other pagan trappings?

  128. sozo wrote: “As for freedom of speech, the atheists are free to say whatever they like. That’s not what they do. They attempt to prevent believers from their right to believe!”

    Not even the worst totalitarian despots on this planet can “prevent believers” from believing what they want to believe. This is not The Matrix. Nobody can get inside your head and turn off your belief receptors.

    Some activist atheists are trying to prevent government entities from using taxpayer monies to advance a religious message by way of supporting religious holidays. They have a right to argue that, because some of that tax money came from them. And you have a right to argue against it. And the government entity is going to make a decision. And if you don’t like that decision you can take it to the courts. (That is unless President Gingrich hasn’t already fired the judges.)

    I just don’t see what the big deal is in all this.

    Truly a tempest is a teapot! (Oops! A Tea Bag comment!)

  129. rainwolf said: “Excuse me, please. I am an Atheist. I do not hate Christians or believers of other faiths. I love Christmas Carols and art and music inspired by the faithful. I always answer a cheery Merry Christmas and wish others a happy holiday of their choice. I am not a hater with an agenda, I am just an atheist.
    Thank you.”

    now, now…..don’t you know you have to be a homosexual liberal Democrat to be an Atheist? You also must kill people at will.

    What the Christians don’t understand is that an Atheist can be just like them, with only one difference – Christians have a God.

  130. LF Said – RW98512 says:
    Dec. 19, 2011 at 3:12 pm When the Christians start supporting Muslim rights to practicing their religion…
    .
    We do, just not the jihad parts…”

    Yeah…I remember the jihad they were wanting to build in NYC…or was that a community center?

    At least try to be honest….

  131. Oh…and the “ACLU Atheists”????

    ACLU Supports Students’ Right of Religious Freedom

    COLORADO SPRINGS –The Colorado Springs Gazette has reported that a local middle school has announced a policy forbidding students from wearing certain Christian symbols to school, unless they are worn underneath clothing.

    The ACLU strongly opposes the decision of Colorado Springs School District 11 on the basis of religious liberty.

    Mark Silverstein, Legal Director of the ACLU said, “The First Amendment protects the right of students to express their faith by wearing crosses, rosaries, or other religious symbols without interference from school officials. Our Constitution protects the right to individual religious liberty and the ACLU is here to support everyone who chooses to exercise that right.”

    One of these days the CONS will quit lying.

  132. “Atheists are a cult.”

    cult   /kʌlt/ Show Spelled[kuhlt] Show IPA
    noun
    1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
    2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers

    Now what does THAT DEFINITION sound like?

    More intellectual dishonesty.

  133. igotdabombfool says:

    BB – Probably more than “a few.” Religion in other countries is more prodominate than it is in the U.S. Since there are roughly 224 million people in the U.S. that claim Christianity as a faith and 78% of those belong to a congregation, I’d have to say quite more than “a few” make Christmas about Jesus.

    I do not deny that Christmas was taken from pagans and most of the objects at Christmas time are paganistic. But for you to claim that out of 2 to 3 billion people in the world that believe in Christianity as a faith don’t believe in Christmas as a Christian day of worship is absurd. That’s like saying only “a few” Jewish people believe in Hanukkah, a few Pagan’s believe in the Solistice, and a few Muslims believe in Ramadah.

    The argument that atheists make is that your religion can’t be show here but we can put up a big banner that says nothing else exists in the world. No nativity scene or wreath or menorah says piss off, you don’t exist to any other religion out there. If you don’t like it, ignore it. If you can’t ignore it, stay in your house and worship your TV.

    I find it interesting that the atheists only come out during Christmas. What you don’t object to Menorah’s in the windows? You don’t object to Easter, Halloween or Thanksgiving? Good Friday?

    Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy “Holy Days” or just good night!!!

  134. We can cure the atheist “problem” in this country really quick.

    Reinstate the Draft.

    Draft all atheists into the Army.

    Send them all to Afghanistan.

    There are no atheist in foxholes!

    (Now, before you get all upset, please look up the word sarcasm.)

  135. “The argument that atheists make is that your religion can’t be show here but we can put up a big banner that says nothing else exists in the world.”

    No. The only complaint is when government gets involved. How difficult is that to comprehend?

  136. “I may have skipped over anyone else’s post who had also stated the obvious. That atheism is a belief, a ” leap.-of-faith”, religion in and of Itself. Why do atheists want to force their beliefs on others?”

    Is bald a hair color? Is off a TV channel?

  137. tburki – Thank you for that rational comparison. As we all know, you must have faith to not believe in something for which there is no proof.

    The moon IS made of green cheese – just not the side that NASA landed on.

  138. Beerboy….Good post at 6:34AM ;) Now then, about this Santa Claus guy…..Ive had fun with this idea before and I;ll do it again….

    Am I the only one with warped thinking, that finds it kind of weird that there is this guy who lives in a snow bank, who’s wife lets him out of the house one night a year, and straight away, he carouses around town with a crowd of rummy reindeer (the leader of that pack even has the red nose!!)…then they spend the night jumping on peoples roofs!…..

    Now then who knows what kind of shenanigans MRS Claus is up to with all those devious little elves while all this is going on!!

    Now can you imagine what would happen to any of US if WE tried to pull off such a carrying on!!

    (Disclaimer: Parents, dont let your kids read any of this stuff!!!!) :D

  139. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The question still remains- the left are attacking Christian/Conservative values; what is theirs in regards to Christmas, family, and celebration?

    With the right attacking the athiests and the left defending them, do the left here all agree with the athiests? BB, RW, and Muck have shown support for those mocking Christmas while dancing around direct support of athiest propoganda (not their freedom of speech, but the displays themselves vs a positive Christain theme).

    Do you agree that the vulgar displays should be permitted during the majority’s holiday?

    And why have we all agreed atheism is a religion? Not having faith is different than proactive anti-faith.

  140. concernedtacoma7, there is no war on Christian/Conservative values going on in this country, Christianity has over a 70% majority in the United States. There is no war on Christmas, schoolchildren can celebrate Christmas in schools all they want, there simply cannot be a lone religion endorsed by a public school. There cannot exist the promotion of a lone religion by any entity receiving public funds, on public land, or expressed by a member of the government in their official capacity. This is following the US Constitution and Federal Law, not an “attack” on Christianity. Someone saying “happy holidays” is not attacking your Christian values, they are simply being inclusive of all faiths and belief systems or lack thereof, because believe it or not, there are people that don’t believe in the same invisible man in the sky as you do.

  141. spotted1 says:

    tburki, it is simply not true that children can “celebrate Christmas in schools all they want”. Name one school district that still has “Christmas break” or one district that has a “Christmas Party”. Yes, schools can support a “holiday” party but no specific holiday celebration for “Christmas” unless it includes a celebration of every other “Holiday” as well, read that “Holy Day” celebration.

    Including the fact that the celebration of a Christmas holiday can not be recognized by the school unless part of their curriculum…

  142. You’re confusing individual children celebrating a specific holiday with an entire school district promoting one over another. Do you really not see the violation of the Constitution in that? This isn’t a value judgement, it’s blatantly stated in the laws of this country.

  143. But for you to claim that out of 2 to 3 billion people in the world that believe in Christianity as a faith don’t believe in Christmas as a Christian day of worship is absurd.

    Believing and Practicing are two different things. One can believe that the holiday is a Christian celebration without putting that belief into personal practice.

    At least, when I was a practicing Catholic I had to interrupt all of the other gift-giving/feasting activities go to Mass on Christmas as a holy day of obligation. As a kid I hated the fact that we had to go to church on Sunday, Christmas, Sunday and New Years Day [feast of the Epiphany] – 4 Masses in less than two weeks!

    There are too many incidences of megachurches canceling services on years like this – either reducing regularly scheduled Sunday services from two to one or getting rid of them altogether – for me to buy the assertion that for the majority of Christians the primary focus is upon celebrating Christ’s birth. Oh sure, they may bow their head and say thank the Lord but what they are really excited about is the bounty left to them by the fat dwarf in a red suit.

  144. spotted 1 – Christmas is an official federal holiday. The only religious holiday that is included in the 9 federal holidays.
    http://www.lawfficespace.com/2010/12/is-christmas-federal-holiday.html

    btw – there is evidence that many of the “traditions” of Christmas were invented by Washington Irving
    http://www.thehistoryofchristmas.com/ch/in_america.htm

  145. “And why have we all agreed atheism is a religion? Not having faith is different than proactive anti-faith.”

    This is getting plain silly. First of all, I don’t consider myself an Atheist. Just the OVER THE TOP Conservative So-called Christians consider me an Atheist.

    Concerned7 bleets over and over about Atheism lacking – here, let me quote – “The question still remains- the left are attacking Christian/Conservative values; what is theirs in regards to Christmas, family, and celebration?”

    Now the answer. An Atheist regards Christmas as a secular celebration – proof evident by the ads on TV. An Atheist has a family and does family things. An Atheist celebrates life on a daily basis and special occasions as they see fit.

    The only difference between an Atheist and a religionist is that the Atheist has one less God.

    Then, finally, there is this – “Do you agree that the vulgar displays should be permitted during the majority’s holiday?”

    It’s comical to watch the use of “majority” by Conservatives. They forgot how much they got away with not being in the majority from 2007 to the present date, but want to envoke the “majority” theme when it comes to religious issues being force on others that don’t subscribe.

    What is a ‘vulgar’ display? Is it the anti-abortion people lining the streets with pictures of medical waste attempting to depict an aborted fetus?

    Just to quiet the Conservative masses and their sound machine-like campaign, I’m not an Atheist, but I know what an Atheist is and I don’t act stupid for my cause.

  146. aislander says:

    It makes no sense to subordinate our historic majority culture to the tyranny of disparate agenda-driven fifth columnists, based on a willful misinterpretation of the 1st Amendment in a tendentious Supreme Court decision…

    Revolution is tearing down the old bridge before replacing it with a new one. Subversion is replacing the components of the old bridge one bolt at a time…

  147. Muckibr says that “Some activist atheists are trying to prevent government entities from using taxpayer monies to advance a religious message by way of supporting religious holidays. They have a right to argue that, because some of that tax money came from them. And you have a right to argue against it.”

    You seem quite ready to use biblical mandates to support government-sponsored welfare, etc. muckibr. As I mentioned on another thread, apparently it is okay to be theocratic about government when it suits your pre-established political views and agenda? You want us to attend to Jesus’ words in one instance and ignore them in others.

    bBoy, your snarky, cynical attitude towards Christians at Christmastime no doubts has its roots in your upbringing in a strict RC household. Whatever the source, your depiction of folks —

    “Oh sure, they may bow their head and say thank the Lord but what they are really excited about is the bounty left to them by the fat dwarf in a red suit”

    is not only flawed, it reveals a serious weakness in your reasoning. For someone who always demands sources, until you enter the homes and hearts of all these shallow Christians you are describing, you have no idea what you are actually talking about.

  148. Well people can just believe whatever they want…..it still remains a FACT….that for the MAJORITY of Americans….this holiday is CHRISTMAS. Enjoy it in what ever way rolls your socks.

    It just amazes me that EVERY year we suffer the same pathetic, squeeky little whining groups who play the “what about ME”, the “it’s not fair we arent included” game ….. Sheesh

  149. muckibr you seem to enjoy citing biblical mandates when they suit you, cherry picking the sayings of Jesus that line up with your political view and agenda. Selective theocracy anyone?

    As for you bBoy, your shallow and disdainful perception of Christians at Christmas is nothing more than a product of your warped understanding. For someone who always demands sources, you certainly make some loaded presumptions about others:

    “Oh sure, they may bow their head and say thank the Lord but what they are really excited about is the bounty left to them by the fat dwarf in a red suit.”

    You have no idea what’s in the hearts and minds of others on Christmas morning and your presumptions give you away.

  150. It would appear I have been blocked from commenting. Oh my, whom have I offended?

  151. I’ll try one more time.

    muck, it appears you like to use biblical mandates when it suits you.
    A sort of liberal theocracy is apparently agreeable to you it seems.

    bboy, your presumptions about Christians and what they are thinking and caring about on Christmas morning are just that, presumptions, perhaps born out of a strict RC upbringing?

    You have no idea what folks are thinking or feeling on Christmas morning and your comments here give you away as an intellectual fraud.

  152. denismenis says:

    I will try one more time. It resides in the heart, and no one can take it away or issue it to you.

    Blessings to all of you.

  153. aislander says:

    I found a De Tocqueville quote that applies to this thread and lots of others:

    “Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.”

  154. sozo, I really just use Bible quotes when they seem to fit into the conversation. I try to make them appropriate and meaningful to the conversation. I hope others don’t mind if I do that, and don’t think that I’m trying to convert them or something like that. It’s really just the same as when I use quotes from an online new article or definition out of the dictionary. That’s all.

  155. Dale “whatever rolls your socks”….shouldn’t that be “whatever hangs your stockings by the chimney with care”?

  156. “sozo says:
    Dec. 21, 2011 at 9:42 am It would appear I have been blocked from commenting. Oh my, whom have I offended?”

    Obviously, to the contrary. Of course if martyrism is needed….

  157. “willful misinterpretation of the 1st Amendment”

    Sayeth one that would ignore “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” in the Second Amendment

  158. For some reason, my posts were not published this a.m. but whatever the issue was is now resolved. I was not feeling martyred in any way, just wondered if I’d offended the editors, that’s all.

    muckibr, okay, now I get it. The Bible is no more significant for you than a website or a dictionary…in other words, it holds no authority for you?

    For most Christians, the question of authority of scripture is huge. See, if it’s just another book, well, frankly, if it’s just another book, I’ll choose to follow something much much easier and more fun, much as many folks who have abandoned it as holy writ.

  159. “The Bible is no more significant for you than a website or a dictionary…in other words, it holds no authority for you?”

    If The Bible holds “authority” to Christians, why is there any talk about prayer in schools?

    Matthew 6:5 says – “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.”

    We now have the latest martyrism in the form of an NFL quarterback praying in front of 60,000 people and the “people of faith” defending his action as opposed to the teachings of their Savior.

    This, among many other hypocrisies is why I cannot take Evangelical Christians seriously when they moan about their woes in society.

    Christianity’s worst spokespeople are those claiming to be the most righteous.

  160. sozo writes: “muckibr, okay, now I get it. The Bible is no more significant for you than a website or a dictionary…in other words, it holds no authority for you?”

    You have completely misinterpreted me sozo, as it serves your purpose to do so.

    The Bible has great meaning to me. I wrote, “I really just use Bible quotes when they seem to fit into the conversation. I try to make them appropriate and meaningful to the conversation.”

    appropriateness

    meaningfulness

    These are important concepts to understand when quoting from any source. You can’t just take something out of context because it seems good at the time. It has to “fit into the conversation.”

    Please, do not pretend to speak for me. Do not assign your thoughts and your prejudices to my words. If you have a question, or do not understand something I have written, just ask. I will be happy to explain it to you.

  161. aislander says:

    re: 2nd Amendment: militia members were expected to provide their own firearms, and anyone might serve in a militia, so the right to bear arms is protected for ALL Americans…AS an individual right!

  162. aislander says:

    RW98whatever writes:

    “‘Wonder why all the “Experts” here who post all the time, have so much time on their hands?’ Maybe aislander can give us his professional ‘Yoda of the Blog’ opinion.”

    Many of them are victims of the Obama economy?

  163. What does the 2nd Amendment have to do with Christmas and or atheists?

    Maybe some of us are retired?

  164. aislander says:

    RW98etc brought the 2nd Amendment into the conversation…

  165. Okay, as a counterpoint to those who misinterpret the 1st Amendment, but still it’s taking us down the garden path on a different tangent. We don’t really want to go there do we?

    Christmas, atheists, but the 2nd Amendment doesn’t fit in with that.

  166. aislander says:

    Sure it does–if the atheists become really annoying…

  167. beerBoy, except for the Star and the manger, are not most Christmas decorations pagan in origin, along with the date Christmas is celebrated.

    In fact Christmas is just a sanitized version of the pagan Yule Tide celebration of the Winter Solstice.

    Concerned, to be anti-religion does not make one anti-family, anti-social, or a progressive.

    Aislander, the reason you did not copy the fine bottle of vintage hypocrisy is that you drank all of it.

    Sozo, by always you mean since the 1830’s. Prior to that time most Protestants (except Lutherans) did not observe or practice Christmas.

    General question” If atheism is a religion do they worship the god-of-no-god?

    Aislander, one of the rights biggest mythconceptions is the left is unarmed and unable to use firearms.

  168. Again….no one has cite a specific incident from this year of atheists attempting to prevent the celebration of Christmas.

    The “war on Christmas” was a media stunt created by O’Reilly. Now it is the annual bashing on the most hated and distrusted group in the US – atheists. Odd way to celebrate the birth of Jesus….
    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/09/19/research-finds-that-atheists-are-most-hated-and-distrusted-minority/

  169. When I was a kid we celebrated the season with the saying of Advent prayers and the lighting of candles on the Advent Wreath. Other families had Advent calendars that hid little chocolates for each day. Now it is the public (metaphorical) flogging of the atheist straw man.

  170. Beerboy says, “Now it is the annual bashing on the most hated and distrusted group in the US – atheists.” Beerboy….I dont hate atheists….I just dont care! :) Sometimes I wonder which way its taken worse! :D

    Frankly I think the whole thing is just stupid. The atheists bash the christians because they think the christians shove their beliefs down everyone’s throat, yet the atheists always seem to be among the loudest groups to make sure everyone knows THEIR view! HAAAA! Its such a hypocritical load of hooey! :D

    I just think people need to shut up and not worry so much about what everyone else is doing.

    Oh by the way…….I WOULD hang my stockings over the fire place, but I haven’t got one! I’ll just be content with ‘rolling my socks’…AND I trust you and yours have a wonderful whatever the heck season you do! ;)

  171. …….and I still will maintain that I think its just weird that a group that believes there is no God, spends so much time fussing over that which apparently does not exist!

    Sheesh do they spend their days running around the house arguing with imaginary beings as well?

  172. “…….and I still will maintain that I think its just weird that a group that believes there is no God, spends so much time fussing over that which apparently does not exist!”

    Funny how this rationale always is present, but I don’t see the Atheists being the ones to bring up the annual War on Christmas Event.

    Keep religion out of government and watch the Atheist’s complaint go away.

  173. Just as I said, aislander can manipulate the Second Amendment from its original meaning, but contends that the First Amendment must be verbatim.

    Thanks, Yoda

  174. aislander says:

    Just clearing the lefty mud from the waters, RW. 2nd Amendment means what it means. You just tried to give it another meaning, that’s all.

    I’m not sure who the Yoda is you keep referring to; I always use standard syntax, though. I’ll be on the lookout for someone committing, say, the following, V+DO+pp+ObP+S+ depV and report it to you so you can take the necessary measures…

  175. “Now it is the annual bashing on the most hated and distrusted group in the US – atheists.”

    And here I thought the “most hated and distrusted group in the US” was The United States Congress.

    Hey RW…, aislander, it seems like it’s getting kind of “personal” between you two, so lets step away from the off topic 2nd Amendment guff and back to the subject. Okay?

    If atheists, or anyone else for that matter, sees a government entity using tax payer money to promote a particular religion, then they do have a right to complain. Because, some of those tax dollars came from people who may not agree with that religion. Fair enough?

    What if Jews complain about a Christmas manger scene in front of City Hall. Anyone have a problem with that?

  176. muckibr – you missed my point. Aislander and others like Aislander are all for verbatim interpretation of the First Amendment when religion comes to the forefront, but take plenty of liberties with the language of the Second Amendment.

    I’m just seeking consistancy. Nothing personal.

    “What if Jews complain about a Christmas manger scene in front of City Hall. Anyone have a problem with that?”

    What if Islamic families challenge kids wearing Christian tshirts to school (defended by the ACLU) when their daughters are being told that their traditional headwear is “unsafe”.

  177. But, I really don’t think they do take the 1st Amendment verbatim, because a lot of them seem to forget the right to keep and bear arms is tied to in order to maintain a WELL REGULATED militia. A lot of them forget the WELL REGULATED militia part, and just go with personal ownership of weapons, and even justifying loonie-toon survivalist militias in Idaho and Montana to name two places.

    Be that as it may…

    This topic is about Christmas and atheists, right? And, I’ll say it right here and now..

    As a Christian, I agree with any atheist who has an issue with any taxpayer money being spent to actively promote Christmas or any other religious holiday or observance.

    Can’t say it any plainer than that!

  178. Oops! Got my amendments mixed up. Looks like your are correct RW. Sorry aislander, he’s got ya!

  179. “Please, do not pretend to speak for me. Do not assign your thoughts and your prejudices to my words. If you have a question, or do not understand something I have written, just ask. I will be happy to explain it to you.” – muckibr

    Hey muckibr, did you miss the question mark? I was attempting to understand how you view the Bible. I asked…”The Bible is no more significant for you than a website or a dictionary…in other words, it holds no authority for you?”

  180. Yah, I kind of did miss the question mark, and took your comment as a statement not a question.

    Here’s my view of The Bible:

    The Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people and the prophecy of the coming of a messiah. It’s laws and rules, including The Ten Commandments have been replaced and superseded by The New Testament. Old Testament laws do NOT apply to Christians.

    The New Testament is the Christian portion of The Bible, that contains the teachings of Jesus Christ and The New Covenant. The most important Books are Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. The New Covenant includes The Two Commandments, which are the most important laws of Christianity. The remaining books (after the first four) are helpful to understand how Christianity was spread throughout the known world, but the real essence of Christianity is contained in the first four.

    The Bible is far more significant to me than a website or the dictionary, but like those it can also be used as a reference at times when appropriate.

    sozo, does that help to answer your question?

  181. aislander says:

    The Supreme Court (of which lefties are usually fond) recently found the right to bear arms to be a personal one, and really the language of the amendment is not ambiguous: “…the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Anything coming before that is mere justification or even an example.

    The use of the word “shall” is telling because, although I don’t believe it is still taught in our schools, when used with the second person pronoun (the implied “you” in the wording of the amendment) the sentence becomes a command. Had the word “will” replaced “shall,” the necessity to observe the amendment would have been less stringent.

    That reverses, of course, for the first person pronouns…

  182. I find your dismissal of the Old Testament convenient and, honestly, absurd. Sorry if that sounds mean; it is not said in anger. But Christ himself quoted from the OT and in fulfilling the law, he did not negate the spirit of that law. The Ten Commandments, when followed, demonstrate a love and respect for the God who instituted them. While Christ’s death and resurrection “justified” the sins of the world and took from us the burden of paying for our sins, there is no reason to simply ignore the things God said. Again, one must understand the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, which I fear many do not.

  183. sozo, you should read your Bible. In particular Jeremiah 31:29-31, which tells us of the prophecy in which God foretold the people that a new covenant would be coming, and it would be like no other covenant before it. Most importantly, it would replace The Ten Commandments by some means of fulfilling them and all the Laws of Moses, but how those laws were to be fulfilled was not made totally clear.

  184. sozo, also worth checking out is Hebrews 8:8-12 The Bible explains that there was a previous covenant between God and his chosen people, but that covenant had flaws and had to be replaced. When that covenant was replaced, when all sins were forever forgiven and forgotten, there would be no need for the old rules because they would be replaced by the new rules and laws of The New Covenant. That is to say, all the laws of Moses would be fulfilled.

  185. “Religion out of government”?? Haaa! As big a SNAFU as our government is….Maybe they SHOULD have some religion! :D

  186. aislander says:

    Dcr628: I have no doubt that for some posters on this very thread, government IS religion. No keeping religion out of government for them–unless it’s Christianity that’s being kept out…

  187. aislander – your constant unleashing of demonizing stereotypes about “the Left” make me think that you live in a very small, ideologically confining world. I feel sorry for you. You seem a rather righteous Pharisee convinced that he is interpreting the rules correctly which makes him superior to others…..at least that is what he is trying so hard to convince himself and the rest of the world.

  188. Humans can, and will, turn virtually anything into a religion, and then practice it with fervor. Take environmentalism for instance.

    There is a significant difference between following a religion and following a living God. This of course, sounds ludicrous to those who do not believe in the resurrection, and I understand that. It DOES sound outrageous. Still, it’s what Christians believe. But please do not confuse religion and faith. Those of us familiar with scripture know how Jesus felt about religious leaders who had lost their way. It wasn’t pretty.

  189. aislander says:

    beerBoy: Every step down a wrong path is a wrong step. It would be interesting to backtrack and determine exactly when that errant left turn occurred, but I think it is a path that has always existed, that we found our way from, but to which many of us have returned. It is the path of coercion…

  190. Perhaps the wisest thing ever said was by Socrates:
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”

    I have strong beliefs and opinions but unlike I fear, many of my colleagues here, I recognize the difference between my opinions and “truth”.

  191. Sure you do bBoy. Sure you do.

  192. As regards the Christian religions, as there are many variations, I have found that most Christians have been indoctrinated into the beliefs they hold for their particular brand of Christianity. Not many have really studied The Bible, but have simply accepted what others have told them that The Bible says for their particular sect.

    There is a big difference between “following” a religion, versus “leading” a religiously inspired life. I never liked being a “follower.”

    Merry Christmas everyone!!!

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