Letters to the Editor

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PROTESTS: Methods not effective

Letter by Zoe V. Herron , Olympia on Dec. 13, 2011 at 9:59 am with 145 Comments »
December 13, 2011 1:08 pm

Re: “Occupiers stand for what really matters” (Letter, 12-12)

The writer of this letter still “strongly supports the Occupy movement” and also states that the future of America’s children is being stolen by the “voracious greed” of Wall Street. What she fails to recognize is that sitting around on the wet pavement outside corporate or government buildings is not going to change what she perceives as the practices of greedy, thieving economic figures.

Granted, this is America and the protestors should have full First Amendment rights to do what they wish. But they also believe that what they are doing is effective. What they don’t realize is that Wall Street, or the government, or those of the economic and corporate world aren’t going to budge. They are not going to change their ways or practices, corrupt or not. That little row of tents is not going to move the supposed giant of corporate America or Wall Street.

Nor should violent methods be brought into the situation. Instead of yelling, pointing fingers, and camping uninvited at the doors of those whom they believe are responsible for economic corruption, protestors should employ more effective methods of disagreement, methods that those concerned actually might listen to or consider.

If you want to make a change, write a letter, start a petition, or vote against practices that you believe against.

Leave a comment Comments → 145
  1. taxedenoughintacoma says:

    Hilarious!! The union wonks and the poltical left jumped at the opportunity to embrace OWS now they’re backing off as fast as they can as the longshoremen and drivers don’t make a penny unless they are on the job and working.

    Calling Wall Streeters and bankers “fat cats”, calling profits “outrageous”, this guy Obama has done nothing but encourage the weak minded, hate America OWS’ers. Now let’s see how, when and IF the Dems can defuse these facists and stay in office.

  2. write a letter, start a petition, or vote

    Oh….right….those have been so effective! [/sarcasm]

  3. and we have two of three that fail to understand the method of non-violent protest.

  4. sandblower says:

    “…weak minded, hate America OWS’ers. Now let’s see how, when and IF the Dems can defuse these facists….”
    Man, are you confused! You must write for sound alone.

  5. concernedtacoma7 says:

    BB- the Tea party has 60 member in congress, without the violence and arrest record of OWS. They were not appointed, but voted into office.

  6. How many people have openly carried weapons to an OWS protest?

    How many people openly carried weapons to a TEA Party rally?

    Note that police have taken physical action directed at protestors for not moving, but didn’t do a thing about people openly carrying weapons for the purpose of intimidation.

    As to the number of “TEA Party” members in Congress, watch how that changes in 2012 when no one is hiding from the term “Republican” as they were in 2010. Low information voters will fall for anything.

  7. “If you want to make a change, write a letter, start a petition, or vote against practices that you believe against.”

    I wonder if Zoe really believes that none that has already been done to no positive effect.

    I don’t suppose it occurred to Zoe that the Civil Rights Movement of the 60’s didn’t get anything done until they took it to the streets.

    And maybe Zoe wasn’t old enough to recall the effect the Anti-Vietnam public protests had in finally calling enough attention to that tragedy to help lead it to an end.

    And concerned… of those 60 or so Tea Baggers in congress, they are part of the problem and not part of the solution. They are a big part of the government constipation in making any changes that we can believe in. They have blocked more legislation than they have ever proposed or produced.

    The Occupiers have it right to take it to the streets, the parks, government buildings and even to the docks if that’s what it takes to wake up the complacent Silent Majority again to get them into action.

  8. Dave98373 says:

    The OWS originally seemed to be a movement of a caliber much like the successful Tea Party. However, it never gained political traction and is now nothing more than a gaggle of the homeless, protest-opportunists, the mentally ill, and misguided students whose message has been hijacked by unions and other political special interest groups.

  9. concernedtacoma7 says:

    If the gun carrying Tea party members were breaking the law, why weren’t they arrested. Oh, they were not breaking the law.

    The only comparision between OWS and the Tea party is that they both were protests. One for change in government, one for change in ? (climate, LGBT rights, anti-rich, etc).

    One group respected the public and police (cleaned up trash, did not intentionally disprupt commerce) while one made a mess at taxpayer expense while disrupting innocent people going about their day.

    OWS has never had the true support of the public. With the exception of NY, these are small numbered hard-core activists, not representative of the masses. More people came to a single Tea party rally in DC then all the OWS camps combined. And there were no arrests of Tea Party members.

    But I hope the left keeps up their support for OWS. It does nothing but turn off the average working man.

  10. concernedtacoma7 says:

    “The Occupiers have it right to take it to the streets, the parks, government buildings and even to the docks if that’s what it takes to wake up the complacent Silent Majority again to get them into action.”

    Sure, get a permit and protest. God bless the 1st Amendment. But when they set up homeless camps in city centers that is not exercising 1st Amend rights.

    And taking it to the docks? We are in a recession and they want to disprupt commerce, and you support that? They will not get one more vote by blocking a truck.

  11. The blocking of commerce at the ports has done nothing more than hurt the people they profess to help. Truck drivers were block from delivering their cargo. Those trucks don’t move, they don’t get paid.

    Why does the Occupy Movement want to hurt working people trying to make a living?

  12. RW – total strawman argument… for your information openly carrying a weapon is legal in many states. We are not criminals, carrying a gun is not a crime. Those individuals were not arrested nor even approach by officers… total strawman.

    Occupy Movement members have been arrested for vandalism, drug charges, sexual assualt, etc… Suicides have occured at these occupations…

    please stop trying to defend behavior, you can’t defend overt lawlessness.

  13. Soundlife says:

    I love how the Dims are moving to clean up the OWS prior to their convention.
    1968 all over again…

  14. For those of you cocooned in your comfortable little FoxNoise world of tightly managed media, here’s something from The Guardian (United Kingdom) that provides a third party report (not American Liberal or Fox Conservative):

    HEADLINE: Occupy aims to shut down west coast ports – as it happened

    1st Para: Occupy protesters attempted to shut down America’s west coast ports in support of an ongoing International Longshore Workers Union battle. Picket lines took place in Oakland, Los Angeles, Portland and more

    Did you read the part where it says, “in support of an ongoing International Longshore Workers Union battle”?

    IN SUPPORT of the dock workers. Get it?

  15. “The Occupiers have it right to take it to the streets, the parks, government buildings and even to the docks if that’s what it takes to wake up the complacent Silent Majority again to get them into action.’

    Then why is the City of Charlotte, NC with the blessing of the Democratic National Committee proposing an ordinace that will just that… ban the Occupy Movement, any movement free access in the streets… they have a right don’t they?

    Why do the Democrats, who professed a love for the Occupy Movement, now hate the Occupy Movement?

  16. “IN SUPPORT of the dock workers. Get it?”

    They hosed everybody else… get it?

    Truck drivers and other support personnel are not necessarily ILWU and in turn get hosed. The ILWU sent their workers home… with pay.

    Everyone one else… no soup for you!!!

  17. qq… DON’T ask ME why the Democrats in N.C. or anywhere else are doing anything. If I have told you once I have told you several times, I am NOT a Democrat. Okay? Why are the Republicans against the Occupiers? You answer me that!

    And as far as the truck drivers and everyone else getting screwed, well that’s what happens when the Longshoremen go on strike. You’ve never been in a union have you? Sometimes other unions like the Teamsters support your union action, sometimes they don’t. If they don’t and the strike happens to affect them to, then that’s just the way it goes pal!

  18. From the same TheGuardian paper, the same article title Mucky…

    “Action relates to union battle over Longview terminal – though union itself has disowned the planned shutdown’

    The subheading right under the heading. How could you miss this?

    ‘disowned” why would the union disown an action professing to support them?

    third paragraph….

    “However, a row has broken out in advance of the shutdown, with the ILWU asking Occupy protesters to call off the action.”

    whoops… didn’t see that huh?

    And finally…

    “Despite the apparently common interests, the ILWU has criticised Occupy protesters’ plans, with a senior figure accusing them of being “disrespectful, arrogant and misguided”.

    Craig Merrilees, communications director at the ILWU, told the Guardian that the union was “not supporting that at all”.

    “[Occupy organisers] have been very disrespectful of the democratic decision-making process in the union and deliberately went around that process to call their own action without consulting workers,” Merrilees said.

    “It’s the second time they’ve done it. The first time they had very little support from workers in their so-called general strike [the Occupy Oakland action on 2 November].

    “This is being promoted by a group of people who apparently think they can call general strikes and workplace shutdowns without talking to workers and without involving the unions.”

    double whoops… with an ouch… :(

  19. “If they don’t and the strike happens to affect them to, then that’s just the way it goes pal!”

    Then why do it if you don’t have the support… the support of the people you are professing to help.

  20. If that is the ONLY reason as you profess then they should have been arrested as it is a crime to brandish a weapon in an intimidating manner in most states.

    Carrying a legally carried holstered gun is not a crime. We are not criminals sir but the Occupy Movement is racking up the charges aren’t they.

  21. I didn’t miss a thing qq.. The question was “Why does the Occupy Movement want to hurt working people trying to make a living?”

    And the answer was, they don’t. They were there in SUPPORT of the union, even though the union seems to have had a problem with their involvement.

    I didn’t miss anything.

  22. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Muck- you just got blown in place with a selective cut and paste job. Guess that is why you left out the link in your initial post?

    Great job, PAL. Hope a union strikes and affects your bottom line.

  23. took14theteam says:

    Time to flag muckibr’s comments for dis’n the TNT rules, like he loves to do himself as the self-appointed policeman of said blog…

  24. Open carry is legal in Arizona, where it was done. Someone tell me which one of the “trespassing” arrests were not under the category of “right to assembly”. The implementation of laws has been misconstrued and mature adults know it.

    I guess, the next time my Republican Congresswoman does a town hall meeting, I’ll have to open carry, since it’s legal in Washington also. I wonder how long it will take the local police to arrest me.

    The application of said laws tells me a lot about the poor condition of our country today. Carrying a firearm to intimidate is supported and peaceful assembly is not.

    BTW – “Took14″ was, until recently, another moniker, before being kicked off the forum for using profanity. Glass houses, stones, and all that stuff. Physician, heal thyself.

  25. RW – I need to correct you, dont’ want you to get arrested.

    You can open carry. The property owner has the right to refuse you admittance at the facility. Please check with the rules prior to your action.

    Carrying a firearm is not illegal. That action – intent to intimidate – is illegal and codified in most states to one extent or another. Please check the statues and understand them prior to any action you take. You seem angry and confused about your rights and the rights of others.

  26. I am going to bring it back up a comment earlier by muckibr….
    Yes, I suppose I’m not old enough to recall the Anti-Vietnam protests. Considering I’m 16….

    That is beside the point. The point of my letter was that while protestors sit in their damp tents, the people whom they are protesting at are reclining in their warm offices, looking out the window and laughing.

  27. Occupiers have they full right to protest as they wish. So far, their means and methods have proved ineffective. The people they protest are not being moved or changed.

  28. rw: “Note that police have taken physical action directed at protestors for not moving, but didn’t do a thing about people openly carrying weapons for the purpose of intimidation.”

    A couple of things just jump out, big time. First, a tiny group of people showing up at an Arizona occupy event is meaningless, no matter who they were supporting. Second, they were not breaking the law, the occupiers refusing to move were. If you urinate involuntarily at the site of a firearm, you should get out more. Leftists do stuff all the time that they think shocks conservatives, usually involving nudity. (topless dykes, naked animal rights activists, just recently, a bunch of naked santas in San Francisco) Never really works, conservatives just think that they’re learning impaired, but it sure sounds like the gun toters got to you! :)

  29. took14theteam says:

    BTW – “Took14″ was, until recently, another moniker, before being kicked off the forum for using profanity.

    Got proof of that KARDNOS?

    BTW – “RW98512″ was, until recently, another moniker(s), before being kicked off the forum for being an obnoxious azz, and promoting his personal website: KARDNOS, JudasEscargot, NickDixon, et al/i>

    LPH, so who do you think I am?

    Enquiring minds want to know.

  30. took14theteam says:
  31. took14theteam says:

    ZoeH, as a 16 year old, you have more insight regarding the “OWS” “movement” then the Progs that spam this website do.

    Please don’t apply to Evergreen when you graduate.

  32. I pass the Tacoma OWS site twice a day and it is a lot cleaner than most base camps I visited in Nam.

    The reason areas where Tea Party events were held is because there were far fewer people there, and they stayed for a couple of hours at best.

    OWS events have very large groups staying for days and weeks.
    Concerned – 1st Amendment includes ‘the right of the people to peacefully assemble”.

    The vast majority of violence at OWS events and camps were instigated by the police not by the OWS people.

    Qq –
    You missed RW point: Why are unarmed, non-violent OWS people attacked by police while the T-Bags were not.

    “vandalism, drug charges, sexual assault” – It would be interesting to know how many of the crimes were committed by actual OWS people, and how many were committed by the homeless drunks and drug addicts dumped at OWS encampments by the Police.

    Zoe – the goal of OWS is not to Change Wall Street it is to change the Nation.

    Took – Zoe’s understanding of history and the OWS rates a F. Yours is even lower.

  33. xring – If you had read my entire letter, you might have noticed the line where I mention “Wall Street, or the government, or those of the economic and corporate world.” Seems like that pretty much covers it!

    Hm. I sorry if you feel my understanding of history deserves an “F”. Personally, as high school sophomore, I tried to stay as informed as I possibly can. I also pay attention in my social studies class. Actually, we haven’t gotten to the Vietnam era yet this year in history. I’m sorry if I fail to have a detailed understanding of every protest that has taken place in history. I supposed as I’m older I will gain more knowledge, but until then, I will study, study, study.

  34. ZoeH, don’t take any of these comments on this blog too seriously. You are on the right track, but you may be expecting results from the Occupy movement to come too quickly, as some of these much older commenters also make that mistake by claiming OWS has already failed, when in fact OWS is just getting started.

    The Civil Rights movement and marchers took years before getting results. The same was true of Vietnam protesters. You cannot measure the success of the OWS in days, weeks or even months. This movement may take years before real change comes. The powers that be will not budge at the first push, but as the OWS keeps pushing the stalwarts will move, they will lose their supporters as people switch sides from wrong to right.

    Simply writing letters, drafting petitions and voting is not going to do it, as much as we would like those things to work. Sometimes, like Civil Rights and Vietnam, you have to take it to the streets.

    Hang in there ZoeH!

  35. qq – maybe the Dems, unlike you apparently, believe OWS when they say that they don’t like either Party.

  36. Zoe,
    Study is good. So is experience. When I was you age I was a conservative.

    Since then I have lived thru at least 4 ‘movements’: Civil Rights, Viet Nam Anti War, Women’s Rights, Gay Rights, and now the mishmash of Conservative/Fundamental/Liberal/Progressive Politics.

    Which every course you follow, do your own research, and trust nothing that you have not verified with your own work. And VOTE!

    PS: Religion you sort have to take on faith, but that’s topic for another time.

    PPS: Many of the allegations made against OWS are the same allegations made against the Civil Rights, Anti-War, Women Rights, and the Gay Rights Movements

  37. bb – dems are on the record as supporting the Occupy Movement. Seems a little hypocritical don’t ys think. Don’t wana a couple of OWS demostrations while the convention is going on do we?

  38. Too bad qq… didn’t offer any proof of the supposed “on the record” claim. Show us the record!

  39. Thanks Muck/Kard….you have confirmed my question above. Yes, you are lacking the intelligence to understand the conversation around you. People do not necessarily carry in order to “intimidate”. Many choose to simply make a political statement that they value their right to bear arms, and that it is an important right in this nation. I am in no way intimidated by a holstered firearm in plain view. I take comfort in knowing that there are armed citizens(myself being one of them) that will not hesitate to protect the sheep when it is needed. An armed society is the single largest deterrent of crime. I won’t shop at the Tacoma Mall or SouthCenter, as they are private properties that do not allow the legal carrying of a concealed weapon. This of course creates a situation where only the gangbangers and criminals are armed.

    Zoe-I remember being 16 and idealistic too. Unfortunately, a lot of people are now 25 to 45, and still don’t recognize the value of education, discipline and hard work. They want the laptop, Iphone, new car, etc, etc, etc, but don’t want to earn the funds to pay for these things.

    Zoe-hopefully you consider going to a real college, staying away from Evergreen. You sound like a very thoughtful young person, and our state could certainly use a few more thinking citizens versus the liberal entitlement driven robots our public schools churn out in this state.

  40. “You missed RW point: Why are unarmed, non-violent OWS people attacked by police while the T-Bags were not.”

    xring – the answer to this is real simple, the Tea Party folk did not break any laws while demonstrating. It really is that simple.

    What RW is trying to do is to tie a perfectly legal act, put an illegal twist and pretend that’s what happened… it did not.

    Don’t know what else to tell ya…

  41. It is one thing to disagree with the views of your fellow citizens.
    It is quite another thing altogether to question the validity of protest in general.
    This whole stance of “protesters are smelly, so I can just ignore their message”?
    The supporters of the status quo show their ignorance of the world around them with the Arab spring; and to American history specifically with the civil rights and women rights movements.
    When these status-quo supporters start questioning the right to, or effectiveness of, protest in general?
    They are just showing that they aren’t interested in reality or facts or even having the conversation to share their opposing views. They would prefer to stay blissfully ignorant.

  42. LarryFine says:

    “How many people have openly carried weapons

  43. took14’s post of 7:58 was one of the few that I found nothing to disagree with.

  44. TMell, my screen name is muckibr, not kardnos. I don’t know who kardnos is or was, but whomever he/she was sure makes your type very paranoid.

    I did not initially write a thing about carrying guns in public until you linked me to that subject by basically saying RW and I were stupid because we have a problem with people carrying guns in public.

    You accuse me of “lacking the intelligence to understand the conversation around you.” You may have noticed that your original message was DELETED by the TNT monitor. Because your comment was not germane to the conversation TMell, so it was removed. (Here’s your “word of the day” lesson TMell, “not germane” = Off Topic.)

    TMell, so you openly admit that your FEAR shopping at the Tacoma Mall or SouthCenter. Well, may I cordially invite you to relocate to Arizona, ASAP, where you will be allowed to strap on your holster and walk around town brandishing your tiny little gun? Would you please consider getting the heck out of Washington where we prefer to have safe and sane people as neighbors! Oh, and if you do go to Arizona, you should probably stay away from political speeches near grocery stores.

    Washington state is great! Love it or leave it!

    ZoeH, when you read the words on this blog, please consider the source before you take any advice from the likes of TMell or anyone else.

  45. RW, QQ, et al,
    You missed the mark on the Tea Party/gun issue. The stated reason for the open carrying guns was in support of ‘2nd Amendment Solutiions’. Which is to say ‘if the vote does not go our way we are advocating taking armed action to achieve our goals’. (FYI – they were advocating treason).

  46. xring – that is more spin. Keep trying if you want.

    2nd – some of the highlighted demostrations happened well prior to that saying.

    3rd – keep trying to tie a crime to an action. If it were ‘treason’ arrest would have been made… and I would have supported the arrest.

    4th – I thought the Occupy Movement was trying to tie itself to the Tea Party movement? Good luck, it won’t work but why the demonization?

  47. I believe xring is referring to the famous oft stated quote of Nevada US Senate candidate Sharron Angle who talked a lot about “Second Amendment remedies” being an alternative if things don’t go your way through the normal electoral and representative process.

    This was also expressed by many in the Tea Party who oft mis-quoted Thomas Jefferson, saying “The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of [patriots and] tyrants.” A number of Tea-Partiers left out the bracketed portion of that quote.

    Many do believe that the shooting of Congresswomen Gabrielle Giffords, and killing of 6 people during that shooting, was at least partly as a result of the violent rhetoric expressed by the Tea-Partiers.

    And again qq…, can you provide a documented source that states the OWS movement is trying to tie itself to the Tea Party? And by the way,,, I’m still waiting to see your proof/source of your previous claim that “dems are on the record as supporting the Occupy Movement.”

    xring is right, and so far qq… you are wrong. Anyone advocating violent action against the government is advocating treason. It’s just that no one in the Tea Party has yet had the guts to follow that advice, so there have been no arrests as yet.

    Tea Party gutlessness does not abrogate the intent of their stated violent advocacy.

  48. took14theteam says:

    Thanks bB. I am glad we could find common ground. You should thank me for being able to save the thread from going italics after I messed up and didn’t close the italics properly in my prior comment.

  49. Zoe – the fact that you felt the need to write a letter addressing the Occupy Movement suggest that, at least on one level, the tactics have been successful – it is now part of the dialogue.

  50. beerBoy, Apparently took14… hasn’t looked back to see what he/she posted at 7:58 that you didn’t find any problem with. I see exactly what you mean, and I also can’t find a single thing in that DEC 13, 7:58 PM post to take issue with either.

    I hope ZoeH now has an understanding that this Occupy Movement is just getting started, and that like you said, it’s off to a good start having attracted the attention of the nation and the world.

    Hey, have you seen qq… anywhere? I’ve kind of been waiting for him/her to provide some much needed feedback on this and a couple other topics. I wonder what happened to qq…?

  51. concernedtacoma7 says:

    #OWS is fading into the trash bin of failed leftist movements. It has lost steam and popular support.

    The 1/99% rhetoric will fade, as it has no real economic effect, just a political talking point.

  52. A movement is not to be taken seriously when they put children on working train tracks in an attempt to stop a moving train.


    I am not so sure the rhetoric will fade, I believe the movement is feeding on itself. And sadly there are way too many who believe that these actions are what is going to change anything… they are just making it worst.

    My prediction is that this movement will not fade away but will come to a crashing end that will be ugly for us all. When they have no more mindless minions to feed off of they will get more aggressive than they are now in an attempt to survive.

  53. LarryFine says:

    “Many do believe that the shooting of Congresswomen Gabrielle Giffords…”

    “Many” still believe there were 2 shooters in Dallas… the 9/11 was an inside job… btdt.

  54. It was not but a month ago that the media, you guys were trying to tie the OWS movement to the Tea Party. That didn’t work so let’s try to make the Tea Party worst then the pathetic child abusers of the OWS movement.

    When you guys are talking anything but OWS you are attempting to change the subject from all the harm they are doing.

    Usually you make a patheitc attempt to justify bad behavior of the Occupy Movement but not one of you have attempted to justify the child abuser for a mom putting her child on the train tracks in Oregon. I’ll give you one star for that.

  55. Many failed ideas, events, or protests have attracted attention, despite their inevitable failure. As humans we are more likely to pay attention to that which we see as ridiculous or a failure. Why do you think so many trashy reality shows receive so many viewers?

  56. Pacman33 says:

    bB preposterously suggests ~
    “the tactics have been successful – it is now part of the dialogue.”

    LOL! Good analogy Zoe. #Occupy Jersey Shore Hahahahaha.

    That is how out of touch these vagrants are. If not so blinded by their hateful and anti-American leftist ideology, they might notice the majority of the dialog regarding OWS is questioning their rationale, purpose and lack of effectiveness.

    As leftist protests have always done, these misfits also claim some kind of series of self-awarded, imaginary victories. Exactly as they did when discrediting and insulting the respectable, rational and brave individuals who used hard work along with passion to impact Civil Rights and Vietnam War.

    The deplorable behavior of the radical leftist is endless.

  57. Oh Muck…you continue to show your basic lack of knowledge. Guess what-Washington State is an open carry state as well. You can legally strap on your firearm and walk around….as long as it is clearly exposed, and you have the legal right to own/possess a firearm. Otherwise, you need to have a concealed weapons permit if you are going to conceal carry(my personal preference, as some people are fearful for whatever reason of seeing guns in public). Always amusing to watch you show how little you know about anything. Better get back to your tent, it’s getting dark….

  58. Why do you think so many trashy reality shows receive so many viewers?

    Probably the same reason why Lyle, Fred and your letters receive so many responses….

  59. And Zoe – your post demonstrates the disingenuousness of your original statement – you have no interest nor concern for how the protesters could better affect change, you are only interested in denigrating their attempts by repackaging the derisive dismissals of the paid spokespersons for the elite defenders of the status quo.

  60. beerBoy, I have another take on ZoeH, based on this from her last post: “As humans we are more likely to pay attention to that which we see as ridiculous or a failure.”

    I really feel she is simply displaying the naivete of youth. She doesn’t seem to want to wait to see where the Occupy movement will go. She automatically assumes it has failed or will fail,which was the original premise of her letter.

    Kind of disappointing that she hasn’t become at least a little more open-minded.

  61. Pacman33 says:

    bB surmises ~
    “you have no interest nor concern for how the protesters could better affect change”

    …. Or maybe Zoe doesn’t share #OWS consensus of perceived change?

    These panhandling protesters who have hidden behind the skirts of ‘fairness’ and ‘equality that are occupying Wall Street and other cities, when they are intelligible, demand only wealth redistribution and something for nothing schemes. History proven failed notions where, that if adopted, everyone would equally live in poverty and slavery and the elite will rule over us. That is what Occupy Wall Street accomplishes. It doesn’t address the burdens this nation is struggling under, it advances our demise at warp speed.

    Occupiers want less of what made America great and more of what is damaging to America: a bigger, more powerful government to come in and take care of them so they don’t have to work like the rest of us who pay our bills. …… and theirs. #OWS’s goal isn’t to end corruption, their goal is to get their slice of the corrupt pie and get rewarded simply for their taking of sides.

    Everything the #OWS has said and every action taken by the #OWS will mean absolutely nothing, the second 99% of the #OWS casts their vote for Obama. The #1 culprit in the grievances #OWS speaks of ; 0bama accepted more contributions from the Wall Street than any other candidate ever in the history of the U.S. 0bama made Enron look like kids play with Goldman Sachs. Only to double-down on his unrivaled cronyism with GE. Nov 6, 2012 OWS be exposed as nothing but a hypocritical and transparent wing of the DNC.

  62. Pacman – your posts on this subject have become more and more hyperbolic and hysterical……as though you feel desperate in your attempts to fend off a rising tide with your little bucket. I am finding it harder to make any sense out of the words you type.

    Take a breath. Write a rational, non-emotional statement.

  63. How about this for rational… until the Occupy Movement makes a concerted effort to define who they are, define their vision, articulate there mission statement, define and articulate objectives and clearly align those objectives to actions, they will continued to be defined by their current behavior… and that aint so good…

    Using little children on train tracks aint the greatest visual for a movement. They are also doing it in New York, using children to thwart police. The post above about the ports, ILWU and the Occupy Movement should be clear that this disorganization, lack of clear mission and lack of coordination is hurting them. How can you profess to help people or a group when they clearly don’t want your help.

    For every one you claim they turn, there are others who are turned off. That number of undecided will turn and turn soon…

  64. Zoe, you will have to excuse the attempts to psychoanalyze you. I’m embarrassed for the fellows who’ve engaged in this.

    You strike me as a bright, inquisitive person, and I appreciate your intentionality with regard to current events and their significance.

    Personally, comparing OWS to the civil rights protests diminishes the latter. Sure, shining a light on the corruption in business and government (and their links to each other) had merit. All well and good. Many people, including this conservative, watched and waited to hear just what they were proposing in terms of making significant changes to this mess. The sad fact is, they never got past the spectacle, and thus that’s how they are going down in history — a group of people who made a spectacle of themselves–one that was hard NOT to watch (yes, like a realilty show, Zoe…excellent analogy!).

    For the record, I do not find muckibr’s tone to be like that of Kardnos. There are similiarites, and I get why some might suspect duplicity, but there’ve been enough posts that I think it’s fair to say muckibr is hardly the obnoxious troll Kardnos was. If they ARE the same, then Kard learned something about impulse control!

  65. beerBoy, good advice you offered, but you know what has been said about “throwing pearls before swine.” Now, before anyone gets in a huff about that, I am not calling anyone here on this blog a swine. Just referring to a lesson from The Good Book. That’s all.

    sozo, thanks for the qualification regarding me not being kardnos. I appreciate the candor.

    As regards the topic of discussion, I wasn’t really trying to psychoanalyze ZoeH. Just saying that she, and maybe you too, haven’t really given the Occupy Movement enough time before you call it a failure. Even if you don’t agree with its purpose, I do believe it’s much like the Civil Rights movement, and I betcha that in their first demonstrations the Civil Rights activists were written off too by many as being failures. As a matter of fact…

    “In 1962, Martin Luther King, Jr., and the SCLC entered the Albany struggle, which failed to gain significant results and branded King with a humiliating defeat.”

    and much later in the movement…

    “… events in Selma, Ala., where King and the SCLC went in February 1965, hoping to boost a languishing voting-rights drive that had been organized by the SNCC and local blacks. After two failed attempts, King led an 87-km (54-mi) march from Selma to Montgomery. Three activists lost their lives during the Selma demonstrations, but in August 1965, President Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act.”

    Taken from: http://www.scholastic.com/teachers/article/civil-rights-movement-0

    The Occupy Movement has just gotten started. Give it a chance before you just write it off as a failure. That’s all I was trying to say to ZoeH.

  66. “Personally, comparing OWS to the civil rights protests diminishes the latter.”

    Sozo – you might find this interesting. I tend to stay away from blogs and such but for a former NYC urbanite I found his perspective… Not sure of the word yet.


  67. With the Civil Rights Movement you knew what they wanted as the end result… with Occupy Movement it is clear what they are against but it is still unclear what they are for and how they believe we, as a nation should get there.

  68. 50 years later it is easy to look back at the Civil Rights Movement and say that you are supportive of all of the tactics they used (including Malcolm X and the Black Panthers?).

    It is interesting to note that MLKjr. and RFK were actively working towards a Poor People’s Movement prior to their assassinations. Gotta wonder just how supportive people would have been to their tactics of civil disobedience if that movement would have gotten off the ground.

  69. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Their tactics were supported because their mission was clear, with defined, popular, and moral goals. They were protesting for American ideals, not against them.

  70. You presume that there is animosity towards the poor, bBoy, and in some fringe groups that may be true. But it’s not true for the majority of conservatives. Just because we don’t think the dole is a good solution to the problems of the poor does not mean we do not care about them, and in fact many of us work tirelessly to offer them support and encouragement.

  71. “Jesus was an Occupier, born under a death warrant, a Jew by religion, born in poverty under Roman occupation,” the two-time candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination told a crowd near Saint Paul’s Cathedral. “Gandhi was an Occupier, Martin Luther King was an Occupier, (Nelson) Mandela was an Occupier.”

    Veteran activist the Rev. Jesse Jackson compared the global anti-capitalist movement to the U.S. civil rights struggle, the battle against apartheid in South Africa and the fight for Indian independence during a visit to an Occupy camp in London on Thursday.


    I can’t be sure, but I think Jesse Jackson, one of the men who was with Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. when he was shot, might know a little more about the Civil Rights Movement than any of us here on this blog. But that’s just my opinion.

  72. from the link you provided qq: written by an urban African American man from NYC

    “The OWS movement will do anything to survive, including marketing a civil disorder funkfest as a civil rights movement.

    In the dedication of the Martin Luther King statue, Obama had the nerve to invoke of Dr. King’s idea of the “creative tension of nonviolent protests.” Nonviolent protests? Does Obama watch the news, or does he just think he is the news?

    Obama goes on:

    “If he [King] were alive today, I believe he would remind us that the unemployed worker can rightly challenge the excesses of Wall Street without demonizing all who work there…”

    Every time Obama invokes the legacy of Dr. King he should be slapped so hard, he’d starve to death before he quits sliding.

    America finds itself in a Bizarro World episode of the Civil Rights movement, where OWS who has no valid reason to march, [and]blames the wrong antagonist.

  73. Well, I think at least Rev. Jesse Jackson would disagree with sozo about President Obama’s invoking of the memory of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. in relation to the Occupy Movement. And, Rev. Jackson knew Rev. King personally.

    sozo, did YOU know Rev, King personally?

  74. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Muck- did you?

    The Rev is now a partisan hack, concerned with his own job security (racial tension hack) over the good of the people he claims to represent.

    BHO, half white, growing up sheltered in a very liberal/wealthy society, knows as much about racial issues and history as I do. He took a proud moment for our nation, the dedication of a civil right’s hero, a symbol of our victory over hate, and made it into a partisan, hate filled symbol of a different struggle; the left’s war on the wealthy and individual responsibility.

    Instead of feeling proud that day, I felt sorry for America as our President gave a partisan hate speech in front of a Chinese made, angry looking statue.

  75. sozo – that guy has a way with words and reminded me of many a conversation in NYC. For me, I am still feeling him out and assessing his positions behind his words.

    When I found his blog I was looking for other perspectives of OWS, especially a minority one. It is timely his remarks about MLK in light of this discussion thread.

    This line I thought summarized his post nicely:

    Without making OWS a civil rights issue, the movement would have to stand on its own. That would make it Seinfeld: A show about nothing.

    PS – read his November 15th post about the Occupy Movement, it actually has some really good observations about liberalism…. some really laugh out loud ‘snaps’ for me

  76. Jesse Jackson is trying to hijack the Occupy Movement and use it for his own means. That is who Jackson is. You don’t need to ‘know’ him to know this, just look at his history.

    Bingo concerned, Bingo

  77. So, muckibr, you feel that you must justify your disagreement of me by saying that I simply display the “naivete of youth”. I sorry that you feel my opinion on this subject is any less justified or valuable because I am of a younger age than you. My opinion is not due to naivete or apathy. Rather, it is my own perception of the event, just like your own opinion is your own perception.

    Also, beerboy, it seems that you think your use of a large variety of words going to throw me off or make me believe in your cause. It will not. I am not a defender of the “status quo” of the elite. You assume that just because I don’t agree with the ways of the Occupiers means that I do not care about them or their cause. Americans (particularly that of the corporate world) are often greedy and use money for their own devices. So, I partially agree with their cause. However, I do not support their current tactics.

  78. Also, to anyone who brought of the Civil Rights Movement into this discussion, the civil rights defenders marched in the streets and refused to ride buses. Those tactics were successful. They did not camp out and lay around in order to make a change. If the Occupiers just marched around, I would be more likely to support them.

  79. They did not camp out and lay around in order to make a change

    You are right, they sat at lunch counters….


  80. BHO, half white, growing up sheltered in a very liberal/wealthy society, knows as much about racial issues and history as I do

    So you are half white, growing up sheltered in very liberal/wealthy society?

    Let me get this straight – because he isn’t ghetto he isn’t black enough for you?

  81. Difference bb is that they sat at the counters because they were told they could not because of the color of their skin.

    The Occupy Movement has no similar prejudice against them. Yeah they smell but their money is good at my store…

  82. Yeah they sat at lunch counters, but they went home at night.

  83. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Zoe, the argument can be made that because of your youth, you have a more objective view of the current events.

    ‘Corporate greed’ is not a bad thing. Do not believe the propaganda.

  84. You’re still missing the point of my comments ZoeH. I said you were young, and maybe naive, because you were too quick to judge and say the Occupy Movement is already a failure. I said you need to step back and wait to see if they will fail or not, because these things take time and you haven’t given them enough time.

    You’re not just young ZoeH. You’re young and dumb, because you don’t see/read what’s in front of you. You only see what you have already decided you will see. Open your eyes and your mind and don’t be dumb.

  85. Last time I checked, muckibr, this is a open feed to discuss the ins and outs of politics, not to insult other’s intelligence. You may say what you wish of me; it will not affect me.

  86. concernedtacoma7 says:

    No, BB, he grew up in Hawaii/Asia, far from the civil rights struggle, raised by a white mother, also far from the civil rights struggle.

    It is not about ‘being black enough’, but how he uses race and class warfare when he grew up basically neutral to color and well off.

  87. It’s not an insult ZoeH. It’s just an observation.

  88. You are correct mucky, the Occupy Movement has succeeded…

    they have succeeded in pissing off the Longshoreman, truck drivers, subway riders, bridge walkers, street walkers and any other walker that got too close, they have pissed off neighborhoods that they set up shop in, store owners, street vendors…

    they have succeeded in costing ports millions in fees and delays in shipments and commerce, cost cities millions in cost to police, ems, containment, cleanup… that cost will be passed on to the 99%…

    They have succeeded in the badge of protesting honor trespassing arrest but also resisting arrest, thief, the trifecta of public urination, defecation and masturbation, public health hazards, rape allegations, drug use, weapons, assault, suicides, memorial desecration, anti-Semitism, vandalism…

    they sure have ‘succeeded’

  89. “It’s not an insult ZoeH.”

    aahhh, nope, it is an insult…

    ps – you write a letter you will get critiqued… you write a letter that is considered ‘conservative’ you will get hammered…

    you will never know everything, just be clear about what you do know. All of us are ignorant to one degree or another. The power to think and analyze and come to supported assessments of what you research is a valuable tool for life.

    you got a pass as this appears to be your ‘first’ letter and you say you are a teenager… next time, the newbie card can’t be played.

    Just have a position, be able to defend it and more importantly, be able to promote it…

    good luck…

  90. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Funny that youth is a source of pride to the left when speaking of protests in Egypt or on a college campus. When the youth is not a progressive, they become too young/immature to contribute, according to our friends here on the left.

  91. Pacman33 says:


    1. First contentiously declare “Name-calling, the last refuge of one who has no valid arguments to offer.”
    Then call a 16 year old girl ‘Dumb’ 3 times in only 6 sentences for nothing more than disagreeing with an opinion.

  92. qq, I appreciate your comment…I think. While I thank you for supporting (?) my position, the last part seemed to be a sort of back-handed insult. I could be wrong, though. No, this is not my first letter. Some of the people on here may recall my pro-life letter in October, in which I had a lot of insults thrown at me, of course.

    I am puzzled as to why you believe I have not fully defended my position on OWS. Since there is nearly 90 comments on this letter, it is nearly impossible for me to personally respond to every attack, allegation, or question. Therefore I pick that which I see as the most poignant arguments and defend them as I see fit.

  93. ZoeH – yes, please appreciate them, they were meant as a form of support.

    Do I support your position? The short answer – yes. You have some of the same observations, questions and critiques of the Occupy Movement that I do. So it appears, we have a similar position on this issue.

    Anything I wrote was general observation or advice and not meant in any way to be an insult. I got no reason to insult you. I typically critique the position, I tend to avoid insults, though I do have some back and forth with some regulars. You are not in that category.

    I am unaware of your previous letter as I did not participate in that thread. My observation in this discussion thread, is that some of the more frequent posters appeared to be… bluntly less insulting than normal to a letter writer they disagree with.

    It is just my observation that you have added some information to. That being said, I suspect that the more you write, the more ‘conservative’ your positions appear to be, the more you will be attacked… just my observation in general, I could be wrong.

    I just gave general advice. It appears that you have been more active than some letter writers defending their letter so I am not sure I ever had that position much less why you think so. It appears you have responded to most, if not all post directed at you. So I think picking, choosing and defending as you see fit is the most effective strategy. Bluntly some posters are not worth responding to.

  94. Zoe – some went home at night, many spent the night(s) in jail after being arrested for sitting at a lunch counter.

    Actually, a more direct correlation for the tactics being employed by Occupy can be seen by looking to the Egyptian uprising – large masses of people gathered in public squares and refused to disperse. Perhaps that correlation is why you, and others who post here, are so disparaging of the Occupy Movement – not because they have chosen a tactic that is ineffective but because the effectiveness of the tactic in Egypt scares the hell out of you.

  95. RE: Age

    One’s age (whether old or young) is neither a reason to support nor dispute one’s contentions. Zoe introduced her age in her writing. It seems that she was attempting to use it as a way to sway folks to her way of thinking. As such, it is understandable that others would turn it back on her. Her age is moot to the point she is trying to make – it neither supports nor negates her arguments.

  96. good grief you want this to be an arab spring thingy so bad. They got a Time cover, isnt that enough?

    The fear is that because these people don’t know what their goal looks like, they won’t know when they get there and what is frighting… they won’t know when to stop. Stop the destruction, this is destroying Americas soul.

    This is not the Civil Rights movement and there is a better way to do this.

  97. ZoeH, I sincerely apologize if YOU think I was calling you a “name” when I wrote that I think you are young and dumb. Not at all! I was commenting on your present educational condition, as you yourself admitted when you told us you are ONLY “16” and “haven’t gotten to the Vietnam era yet this year in history.”

    As I compared the Vietnam protest movement and the Civil Rights movement to the current Occupy Movement, my meaning was that you lack sufficient knowledge at this point to seriously compare them to each other.

    Upon reflection my choice of the word “dumb” was a bad choice, and I apologize for that. I do not ever intentionally engage in personal name calling of people I am conversing with. (I most certainly have not done so in any of my post in the past few days, that is guaranteed.) I might refer to some groups of people by certain names, or be misinterpreted as calling people names when I am really only commenting on their present condition, but I never ever directly call people names. If you think I did that to you, I am sorry. I am sure I did not.

    By saying “young and dumb” I was only commenting on your present condition as being youthful and not quite fully educated. Being “young and dumb” is an old saying we used to use when we talked about new recruits when I was in the army many years ago during the Vietnam Era. Newbies, as we called them, were “young and dumb.” But they learned quick. Most of them, anyway.

    Nonetheless, “dumb” was a bad choice of words. I should have referred to you more correctly as being ignorant about Vietnam and Civil Rights protests. Because, you admit you ignorance on Vietnam in your own words.

    Again, referring to you as “ignorant” is NOT name calling. Ignorant is simply a state of your present educational condition on the Vietnam Era, which I am sure you will change as you study, study, study like you said you will.

    By the way, for those who tell you the Civil Rights Movement is nothing at all like the Occupy Movement, they are being disingenuous. The Reverend Jesse Jackson was there with the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., and he says they are alike. I think he knows more about that than anyone here on this blog.

  98. Now that was a backhand…

  99. bb – short version, why keep telling us ‘ignorant’ folk how we disparage, critique, etc… and worst, tell us what we must be feeling (ahhh, no)… instead, defend the movement, tell us why it is so wonderful… provide some anecdotal evidence (notice I am not asking for real evidence).

    Lunch counters – yes the Civil Rights group went home and some went to jail (trespassing, and other laws) but they didn’t vandalize, they didn’t use the washroom as a replacement for a shower stall (OWS folk were notorious for using a few shops restroom as if they were home bathrooms).

    The Occupy folk have the similar opportunities my kids do. There is no prejudice against them, they are not being lynched or bombed because they look different… Everything is perceived, manufactured.

    What are they seeing that many Americans are not. One of their issues is the income inequality. Gallup just completed a poll that shows less of a divide… even from 3 years ago. And we are in a tough economy, Occupy is going on, and a White House mouthpiece that will tell you the world is coming to an end… I guess we don’t believe them.

    I wrote earlier and it didn’t post that I am scared… these Occupy folk don’t know what they want looks like, so when after all the chanting, occupying, millions in cost, destruction… my fear is they won’t know when to stop.

    PS – nice post on age. Very well said.

    Like my pom-poms ;)

  100. You know, I keep reading things about the Occupy folks that they are violent, destructive, law breakers, etc. But, the situations I have read about when violence has broken out, that violence was almost always initiated by the police, not the occupiers.

    The instances of destruction have been mostly exaggerated. There have been no reports similar to what occurred a few years ago during the WTO riots in Seattle as far as I have read. No occupiers that I have heard of have broken the big storefront windows in Downtown Seattle yet, have they?

    Regarding the law-breaking aspect… much of this was as a result of college administrators or city councils changing the rules and the laws AFTER the occupiers were already established on a campus or in a park.

    BUT, you know what I remember from the initial days of the Tea Party events. I remember seeing a video of a burley he-man redneck type guy stomping on the head of a young girl after he had ripped her sign out of her hands and thrown her to the ground. That was the TEA PARTY people! Can somebody find that video on YouTube?

    I also remember videos of the cops swinging batons against black people at the peaceful protests during the Civil Rights movement, and seems like those videos were just like the baton swinging that went on in Oakland not long ago. How long will it be before the cops bring out the hire pressure fire hoses to keep the unruly occupiers in line, like they did the blacks.

    How long will it be before there is another Kent State incident like during the Vietnam protests?

    Keep ratcheting up the hate talk on these peaceful protestors and there will be blood!

  101. Income inequality:
    The Hill Poll: Fears about inequality in income grow: two-thirds of likely voters say the American middle class shrinking and 55% believe income inequality is a big problem for the country.


    RE the Gallup poll, I find it interesting that here was a radical shift sometime in 2008 (just about the time the Bush Recession kicked in). IMO Gallup rephrased the question or changed who was polled.

  102. “You don’t bring bricks and paint and things like that to a demonstration with the intent of peacefully protesting or picketing,” said Assistant Police Chief Mike Sanford.

    Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/komo/article/SPD-Video-shows-Occupy-Seattle-protesters-acted-2406525.php#ixzz1gjttlUf3

    I don’t think Martin Luther and the Rev Jackson brought bricks and paint to one of there non-violent demostrations.

    bb – am I ‘disparaging’?

  103. LarryFine says:

    Pretty obvious you called her a name… “dumb”… nice backpedal tho, you do you often.
    “…changing the rules and the laws AFTER…” Kooky, reminds me of the democrat election commisiion in Fla.
    We’re not your research monkey(s)… find your own video (as if).
    Since you seem to be proactive correcting other’s punctuation, and such, I have to ask… what is a “hire pressure fire hose”?

  104. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Ok Xring, here is a good article just for you. No idea why it is on this odd site, but very telling


    “Data that tracks real people show that Sowell is correct. For example, as reported in The Wall Street Journal, IRS tax-return data shows that individuals in the bottom one-fifth back in 1996 experienced income growth of 91 percent by 2005. In contrast, individuals in the highest one-fifth saw their incomes increase just 10 percent over the same period. Incomes of households in the top 5 percent and 1 percent actually declined, by 7 percent and 24 percent, respectively.

  105. In my 2:00 PM post, paragraph 5…

    hire pressure fire hoses

    should have been

    high pressure fire hoses

    Sometimes the auto spell-corrector plugs in a correctly spelled word, but doesn’t quite get the right word, so the spellcheck doesn’t flag it. And, I have admitted to making typos on other blogs. I’m not perfect. And I don’t pretend to be, like some folks on these blogs. Most people I think could have figured out “hire” was meant to be “high”, but there probably are some who need to have it pointed out to them. I am more than happy to help out those who need the extra help.

    Now, on the other hand, when a person posts false information, like saying if you are registered as a Democrat or Independent in Washington state, then you won’t have a chance to vote for Gingrich, well, that’s just plain wrong, not a typo, just bad info.

    see: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/12/14/what-has-happened-to-political-compromise/#comment-189949

  106. LarryFine says:

    Ok… now tell me, what is a “high pressure fire hose” ? My pressure washer at home is 3000psi.
    We know your not perfect… you’re a hypocrite. You name call and then get agitated when someone else does it. You constantly correct people for spelling errors and typos, and then backpedal when someone replies in-kind.
    p.s. if you vote Gingrich in the primary you won’t be voting for any democrat candidates in other races. (of course, you’re assuming he even gets the nomination. It would be cool to see him stomp the crap out of Barry in a debate tho. )

  107. qq – The Civil Rights Movement wasn’t just MLK and MLK didn’t just sit around the campfire singing Kumbayah while holding hands with the cops.

    “It doesn’t mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time, I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don’t call it violence when it’s self-defense, I call it intelligence.”
    Malcolm X

    Any unarmed people are slaves, or are subject to slavery at any given moment.
    Huey Newton

  108. That being said – Occupy isn’t the Civil Rights Movement, the Anti-Vietnam Movement or Arab Spring. It is its own animal. We shall see what becomes of it.

  109. LarryFine says:

    Animal… good one… judging by the living conditions they’ve created.

  110. And beerBoy, the ONLY reason I ever brought up the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War Protest in the first place was to say that those two movements were not immediately successful. They both had their initial failures and took years to develop, and eventually became the agents of change in America that were needed to make America a better place to live for us all. They were successful.

    The Occupy Movement has the same potential to be equally as successful, given a similar sufficient amount of time that the other two movements had.

    For people to say now that the Occupy Movement has already failed is simply to put the blinders on and delude themselves. These things take time to develop!

    The Occupy Movement has not failed. It has just gotten started.!

  111. Girl With Move On (MoveOn) Wrestled to Ground and Stomped by Rand Paul Tea Party Thugs


  112. Tea Party Violence: Teabagger Tries To Kill Man With Obama Bumper Sticker


  113. muckibr, you made quite an a$$ of yourself with regard to Zoe, who, IMO has shown more maturity and even more wisdom than many of the others posting here. And yes, I called you a name. Your attempt to make it right was amusing.

    Zoe, a poet, James Wright, once said

    “It’s possible for a man to live forever in a split second. It’s possible for someone to live eight five years and not get a prayer what it’s about.”

    You have a bright future, but don’t be surprised when your critical thinking skills surpass your elders at times.

  114. LarryFine says:

    Interesting youtube links.
    Didn’t see where there was any actual implication of the TEA Party people but you should get credit for coming up with 2 that, very loosely, could be perceived as being associated with the TEA Party.
    Gotta love the name calling too. Who ever posted the vidoe and choose the “childish and immature”, homophobic “teabagger” heading must be in “the last refuge of one who has no valid arguments to offer.”

    Kooky huh ?

  115. sozo, Your childish name-calling doesn’t phase me one bit.

    I stand by what I wrote to Zoeh, and if she takes it to heart it will help her grow and mature, far beyond the maturity level where you apparently are currently stuck.

    By the way, your comment about Reagan vs, Obama in the other topic is foolish, and I have corrected you on it.

  116. QQ
    I must need new glasses because while I see a lot of pushing and shoving I don’t see any flying rebar, paint, or bricks.

    I also don’t see any tape of what lead up to the physical conformation.

    The Assistant Chief claims the protestors brought these items to the protest, but the reporter says they were obtained from a construction site during the protest began.

    I’ll have to go with ‘Not Proven’ on this one.

    I would say it’s proof that liars figure, figures can be made to lie, and you have jumped another shark.

    L-F – ‘high pressure fire hoses’ are the big cavvas ones, as opposed to the small rubber ones.

    And the big canvas ones where used against the Civil Rights Marchers in the South.

  117. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Xring, you failed to comment on the data because they contradict, factually, with your progressive, DNC, OWS talking points.

    They show how childish and uneducated the rhetoric coming out of the left is.

  118. ReadNLearn says:

    Why would you use a word like ‘rhetoric’ when trying to discuss something with someone who is on the left? That’s like using medical terms in pre school.

  119. LarryFine says:

    Gotta laugh at Muck_nos whinemaking about someone namecalling when, over just one week, he has called people “teabagger, dumb, heartless goons, gutless, Republican/conservative automatons, naive fool, elitist snob, bigot…

    Par for the course tho…

  120. LarryFine says:

    What is “big cavvas” ?

    Care to answer muckster? I’m really curious how high of pressure we are talking about.

  121. A fire hose is a high-pressure hose used to carry water or other fire retardant (such as foam) to a fire to extinguish it

    The usual working pressure of a firehose can vary between 8 and 20 bar (800 and 2,000 kPa; 116 and 290 psi), while its bursting pressure can be up to 83 bar (8,300 kPa; 1,204 psi).

    On occasion, fire hoses are used for crowd control (see also water cannon), including most notably by Bull Connor in Alabama against civil rights protestors in 1964.[citation needed] While still a common practice in many countries,[citation needed] it is no longer used in the U.S.


    I guess I still need to work on training you how to use google.

  122. from the wiki entry on “water cannon”

    The first truck-mounted water cannon were used for riot control in Germany in the beginning of the 1930s.[1]

    Truck-based water cannon were used widely in the United States during the 1960s for riot control. Although they were safer than a combination of firearms, tear gas, and batons, their use as a non-lethal riot control mechanism has fallen out of favor in the United States.

    Water cannons in use during the 1960s, which were generally adapted fire trucks, would knock protesters down and on occasion, tear their clothes.

    Anecdotal reports indicate that people can walk away from an encounter with a water cannon with serious internal injuries such as a ruptured spleen.[citation needed] If such injuries are ignored, death could occur later. A high pressure modern water cannon can achieve pressure of up to 30 bars (3,000 kPa) which can result in broken bones.

  123. bb – with friends like these…


    This Occupy is a classic example of how not to run a movement. Between supporters like this, the hundreds of separate incidents, the stories, the lack of focus and articulated mission…

    ‘disparage’… just open your eyes to what is happening before you…

  124. beerBoy, please take a moment to read my comment on the CLASS WARFARE topic. I really think you are wasting your time trying to educate Larry.

  125. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Muck- why don’t you try just once to educate the group, and tone down the rhetoric.

  126. “Muck- why don’t you try just once to educate the group, and tone down the rhetoric.”

    I’ve tried to educate the group many many many times here, with marginal success at times. But, there just seems to be no way to get through to Larry, and I am afraid he is dumbing-down the rest of the gang on his/your side of the issues. I hate to see that happen, because I would really like to read some carefully thought out counter-arguments, instead of having to waste my time reading cutesy little comments that are neither informative or intelligent.

    concerned.. you have made some good points on topics in the past, but recently you and some of the others seem to be emulating Larry, and that’s a real shame. I mean, look at your 11:52 PM comment from yesterday. You make a charge, followed by an invective, and leave it at that. If you really feel there was a contradiction, then spell it out. That’s debate. Dropping an unspecified bomb on someone without defining it is lame.

    We’re supposed to be discussing the effectiveness of the OWS protest methods in this thread, that’s the topic right, but right now we can’t even get an effective debate going back and forth. Why, because Larry wants to make everything a funny joke. Let me ask you: When was the last time Larry added anything of real substance to any of these topics? Not for a long time. He drops in. makes a cutesy little comment, usually belittling, then runs away. You guys see it, and I guess you think he’s some kind of genius wit, and then instead of going back to the debate, you do what he does. That’s lame man!

    Now, you concerned… haven’t done the Larry-thing quite as much as aislander has. But seriously, go back and look at aislander’s most recent comments in any of these topics, and you will see a lot of silly little pithy drop-ins, instead of real thought-out debate level arguments.

    All I’m saying is, this is a forum for debate, right? You want to debate, then let’s debate. You want to instead just make cutesy little nothing comments that make no sense, then go do some twitter tweeting or join a chat room. Let’s use this area as an opportunity to learn from each other.

    That’s all I’m saying!

  127. took14theteam says:

    when your comment takes up my entire screen, I don’t bother to read it.

    That’s all I’m saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  128. took14theteam says:

    But, at least you know where the return key is, unlike menopaws.

  129. took… When your comment(s) looks like Larry’s I ignore it(them), like I ignore his. Pithy off topic quips are valueless and unworthy of debate.

  130. Concerned,
    Ok here’s my comment ‘Anecdotal nonsensical opinion masquerading as facts suitable for consumption by brain dead zombies and others who believe in right wing propaganda and lies.

    Smarter people usually make better choices, and smarter people are less likely to be conservative. So how are we to conclude anything but the obvious? Conservatism is stupid, right?


    Larry – cawes is canves with a typo. I would expect even Bo Raddley would have know what a high pressure fire hose was.

  131. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Lies? Facts and figure showing the rhetoric behind OWS is just that, rhetoric.

    The rich get poor and the poor get rich. There is still, has been, and will be income mobility in America. That is why the article shows (through data), and you are ignoring.

    The factors effecting the top one % are stock market wealth (IPOs) and dual professional incomes. The stock wealth goes up then down, historically. Two highly educated professionals married, sticking together, and working long careers are also effecting the numbers. Either way, who cares? Neither hurt the middle class or the poor. Just the opposite. Two pro’s are going to pay a ton of regular income taxes (and have earned it with hard work), and the stock guy is creating jobs (insert leftist anger here, but a company must produce a product or service) and paying income and cap gains, on top of Corp taxes.

    Back to subject #1, OWS and protests. These kids and professional protesters are either being used or ignorant to the truth. Identify, by individual, the ‘enemy’ in their struggle. The data proves it changes with every tax return. The ‘innocent’ become the ‘enemy’ and the reverse.

    The desire to be rich is good for society. The desire for unearned power and wealth is the great danger. Channel anger at the politicians, those that create nothing. Spreading taxpayer money is not economic creation.

  132. ReadNLearn says:


    Let’s see, individuals who screwed up something as simple as their own personal finances feel they have valid statements regarding things as complex as economic theories, international trade, and high finance!

    That in itself is funny.

    Ever been around them? Ever been downwind of these people? It gets even better…people who not only can’t manage their personal finances also can’t manage their personal hygiene!

    These folks have valid opinions?

  133. Okay concerned… who wrote “(insert leftist anger here, but a company must produce a product or service)”

    What “product” did the banks produce when they sold and re-sold and overvalued Mortgage Backed Securities which they knew were not worth anywhere near the amounts they were selling for?

    What “product” did current Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney produce when he was in the
    private sector working for Bain & Company and Bain Capital, buying up businesses for the purpose of destroying them to sell off assets and throw thousands of people out of their jobs?

    I could provide more examples if you like, but let’s first come up with answers for these two just as a start.


  134. Concerned, the facts say you are totally wrong.

    Income inequality continues staggering 25-year growth trend due to surging wage growth for topmost sliver (top 1%).

    Inequality in the United States continues to worsen. Huge gains at the top of the income scale have been fueled by, among other things, a surging inequality in wages (illustrated in the chart below). The ratio of the wage income of the top 1% of earners to that of the bottom 90% more than doubled between 1979 and 2006, increasing from a ratio of 9.4-to-1 to 19.9-to-1. In contrast there was relatively little change in the earnings disparity from 1947 to 1979, when wages at all levels of the economy grew apace.

    Middle class income (adjusted for inflation) peaked in 2000 at about $53,000, and then fell to $49,500 in 2010.


    From 2002 to 2007,
    Top 1 Percent of Americans Reaped Two-Thirds of Income Gains in Last Economic Expansion, and Income Concentration in 2007 Was at Highest Level Since 1928.

    Average incomes increased for:
    Top 0.1% by 94.1%
    Top 1 % by 61.8%
    Top 91% to 99% by 13%, and
    Bottom 90% by 3.9%


    ReadNLern – I do believe you name is an oxymoron

  135. took14theteam says:

    xring, when you try and post a zinger, you should at least proofread the comment and correct the spelling before hitting submit.

    Just saying…..

  136. concernedtacoma7 says:

    As a little analysis shows, if you look at the individuals, not a block percentage, the story reads different.

    Yes, the top one percent makes a ton of paper money. So what? Looking at those who hit the top 1%, their incomes fell in the past 10 years.

    And as you point out, they are doing better than the bottom bracket. But the bottom bracket still went up! So who cares?

    Muck- all those companies provide a service. Hence why in my earlier post I said “product or service”.

    Hate banks and Wall Street all you want, but they are essential to our economy. Buy a house, 99% of us are getting a loan from a bank. Store money in a floorboard or a checking account.

    Buy a new car, all those cars are purchased by the dealer on a loan.

    Back to ‘inequality’- xring, what do all those numbers mean to economy and what changes do you propose.

    How is the rich guy getting richer affecting the little guy? Very curious.

  137. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Muck- those mortgage backed securities facilitate a spreading of the risk, allowing mortgages for the highest risk (lower earners) to buy a house at an affordable rate.

    The problem with the mortgage market is fannie and freddie shifting the risk from investors to the govt.

    As to Bain Capital, I would have to do so research since I know very little about the company. But why should I care? Breaking up companies is part of the business cycle. Did you just watch Pretty Woman?

  138. Took1, if you are referring to my zinger to R-N-L,

    Brilliant, Absolutely Brilliant, advice from someone who can’t spell.

    I simple words that even you may be able to understand.

    The rich guy is getting richer by making the poor guy poorer.

    My solution: Put American and American Workers first, and stop
    subsiding the rich and big businesses.

    The problem with the mortgage market is that the banks and other lenders bundled their subprime mortgages and Wall Street lied and said they were sound investments and then sold MBS to investors.

    PS: My solution: Lending Institutions should be requied to hold on to 90% of the loans.

  139. concernedtacoma7 says:

    I actually agree with your last line. Stop the re-selling of mortgages. Make someone responsible for the risk close to the source.

    OK, “The rich guy is getting richer by making the poor guy poorer.

    My solution: Put American and American Workers first, and stop
    subsiding the rich and big businesses.”

    No, the rich do not get rich by making the poor poorer. How did Mark Zuckerberg make the poor poorer? Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? The only one who gets rich by making the poor poorer are politicians.

    End subsidies. OK, end ALL subsidies. Green energy. Auto bailouts. Big oil. But how do put “American and American Workers first”? This is a free world. American workers have to prove a compettitive advantage for the business hiring them. American workers do work hard and efficiently, but costs outweight that advantage. And regulations in America nickel and dime business to the point where they cannot produce in America.

    Look at the recent attacks on Boeing, Gibson Guitar, and the energy sector. Why would you want to produce in America aside for patriotic reasons (and sorry, shareholders do not care).

  140. If the sub-prime mortgages were the problem, why didn’t the TARP and the FED spend less money and just buy off all of the mortgages?

  141. Hint: the banks define the projected interest collected over the life of the loan as an asset that they somehow, magically have access to right now. If the loans were paid off they would lose their assets.

    The problem isn’t the little people’s debts on overpriced houses, it is the financial system that treats projected income as though it exists now in order to “guarantee” the creation of even bigger debts which are in turn used as assets to “guarantee” more debts into infinity.

    It is the ultimate pyramid scheme – except this one is inverted – the base is the smallest part.

  142. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Or, the govt loaned money at 5% leaving the risk and work of unworking these securities with the private sector.

    It is Mr BHO who pushed through the stimulus, shifting auto companies failed policies of huge union benies on the taxpayer. It is Barney Frank and Bill Clinton that were pushing fannie and freddie to take on more risk.

  143. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Also, when the mortgages defaulted, the fed govt would own a large amount of homes. They are not exactly known for being good landlords.

    Yes, I know this happening indirectly today, but not as direct as if the Treasury bought failing mortgages.

  144. And what do the mortgage loans and government bailouts have to do with PROTEST: Methods not effective?

    Let’s get back on track people!


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