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PROTESTS: Occupiers stand for what really matters

Letter by Roxie Gihl, Bremerton on Dec. 7, 2011 at 10:55 am with 105 Comments »
December 7, 2011 1:53 pm

I, for one, still strongly support the Occupy movement – who else is speaking for the 99 percent of Americans watching their futures and their children’s, too, being stolen by Wall Street malfeasance and voracious greed? All while so many in government, federal, state and local, look the other way and do nothing – or, worse yet, aid and abet the thieves with special deals, bailouts and tax breaks, and no prosecutions. A really pitiful state of affairs not becoming at all to a civilized society.

Jobs, the environment, education, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, libraries,
police and fire protection, healthcare, the shrinking Middle Class are the reasons occupiers are there – to bravely try to stand up for what really matters to the overwhelming majority of Americans!

Anyone paying even a little attention can easily figure out why they’re there. It’s painfully obvious. Camping out or even just protesting during the day isn’t warm, comfortable, easy to do or safe, but I believe the occupiers have found that no one will listen any other way.

They are still striving overall to be non-violent, I believe, and you can no more paint all occupiers with the same broad brush than you can any other group in our society. Support the First Amendment rights and the just cause of those many occupiers who are standing up legally and with action and conviction for themselves and the rest of us! They need us, too!

Leave a comment Comments → 105
  1. muckibr says:

    Roxie Rocks!!! She has it exactly right. Great letter Roxie!!! Thank you for adding clarity to this issue. Now, watch as the naysayers come to attack you. Forget them!!! You got it right.

  2. jjohnson67 says:

    I second muckibr agreeing with you. And he’s right again when you will get attacked.

    I can understand why the 1% want to keep status quo, but why in the world is the other 99% wanting to keep things are they are? Do they think they will survive when the middle class is totally wiped out?

  3. roxie — great letter

    jj — a recent fairleigh dickenson study shows that Fox News viewers knew less about current events than people who watched no news at all. people think they can vote once every four years, and everything will work itself out. then they watch fox and get lied to. they get scared and start writing ignorant letters. luckily we still have people like roxie, people who open their eyes and see whats really going on.

  4. took14theteam says:

    So what does Fox News have to do with the letter?

  5. “no one will listen any other way?” No one is actually listening now.

  6. muckibr says:

    sozo, You wish no one was listening. But, sorry to say my friend, THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING!

  7. hansgruber says:

    What is this 99% crap? 53% pay income tax and 47% don’t. It’s more like 47% are demanding the 53% pay for them.

    THere was a time when being on public assitance was an embarassment and people worked hard to get off of it.

    Now it seems these types are demanding their “social justice” free housing, free food, free cell phones, free daycare and expect the government and the 53% who pay income tax to support them. No wonder those in the middle class are hurting, no wonder the top 10% of earners paid 70% of federal income taxes the U.S. tax system is already highly progressive. The top 1 percent of income earners paid 38 percent of all federal income taxes in 2008, while the bottom 50 percent paid only 3 percent. Forty-nine percent of U.S. households paid no federal income tax at all in 2008

  8. concernedtacoma7 says:

    At this point the left have made Wall Street the boogie man, guilty of killing babies and grandma, the reason Roxie and muck do not have a newer Mercedes.

    Wall Street serves an essential service for most Americas. Retirement money, you can keep under your pillow or invest. You can pay for a house in cash or get a loan.

    Their mission is make money.

    I feel like the recent LTEs an comments from the left are right out of Atlas Shrugged.

    This is an old movement with a new name, some new blue tarps.

  9. SwordofPerseus says:


    Are you aware that 47% of Americans are too POOR to pay any income taxes, however, to say they pay no taxes is completely disingenuous at best. At worst it is a damned lie.
    Either way it seems you are mercifully free of the ravages of poverty, yet annoyed somehow with the poor.

  10. This stuff is a hoot. Yesterday, another commenter lamented the fact that someone had written a letter asking what the heck the “occupiers” stand for, stating that it was obvious, followed by nebulous rantings about the 1%, cronyism, etc. So here’s Roxie from Bremerton, telling us we’d be blind not to know… and then she rolls off a laundry list of stuff, with never a mention of corporate cronyism or anything else the guy yesterday was telling us was obvious.

    Anyway, don’t bother, people, we get it, and please keep it up through next November. I know that many of you think that you can disrupt the system enough to where Obama will have to, well, do something drastic. That’s old news, but it ain’t happening folks, there’s waaaaay more of us than there are of you. Sorry ’bout that. :)

  11. aislander says:

    Yeah! I’m bravely standing up for getting free stuff! Power to the parasites! Right on…

  12. aislander says:

    The threshold for paying income tax is a completely arbitrary level set by Congress. If the threshold was $250,000, the guy making $249,999 would be “too poor” to pay the tax. You really should be embarrassed for making that argument…

  13. Pacman33 says:

    Jobs, the environment, education, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, libraries, police and fire protection, healthcare, soap, the shrinking Middle Class, no prosecutions of evil and legal for profit business, oracious greed, special deals, bailouts and tax breaks and finally Wall Street malfeasance.

    LOL. Save The Whales, Free Tibet, End Global Climate Warming Change ……

    Is that all? So basically you are standing up just to stand up, protesting to protest and fighting for the purpose of fighting?

    “One stops being a child when one realizes that telling one’s trouble does not make it any better.”
    ~ Cesare Pavese

  14. aislander says:

    Love that quote, Pacman33, but the whole lefty project is about making children of us all–except for our handlers, of course. And every lefty sees HIMSELF in that role…

  15. concerned… you wrote, “Wall Street serves an essential service for most Americas. Retirement money, you can keep under your pillow or invest.”

    Try telling that to AIG after they lost 27% of the value of my retirement 403b!

  16. aislander loves that quote Pacman33 used from Cesare Pavese.

    By the by, did you know that Cesare Pavese was a member of the Italian Communist Party? That is, before he committed suicide.

    So, you like the communists do you? Veeeerrrryyy eeeenteresting!

  17. Pacman33 says:

    muck had a point …. but instead wrote :
    “Pavese was a member of the Italian Communist Party?”

    Yes, aren’t nearly all artist and poets?
    Pavese wrote the quote before going red and killed himself After he became a communist. He woke up one day sounding like you sons-a-burches and decided to commit suicide. I can only hope I could do the same.

  18. qq98411 says:

    “Anyone paying even a little attention can easily figure out why they’re there. It’s painfully obvious.”

    We know what they are against… we don’t know what they are for and how they propose to get there.

    Their actions are disruptive to the economy and a case can be made that they are contributing to making it worst. A planned west coast shutdown will cost the region millions of dollars. If the goal is to get attention, you already had it. That is painfully obvious.

    Now what are you supporters of the movement going to do moving forward now?

  19. qq98411 says:

    “Try telling that to AIG after they lost 27% of the value of my retirement 403b!”

    Any investment they made on your behalf had to be approved in one form or another by… you.

    I like that quote too Pacman, seems appropiate for this board.

  20. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    who else is speaking for the 99 percent of Americans…

    Thankfully, not you, Roxy. And contrary to the arrogance of thought you so laughably articulated, the OWS dirtbaggers no more speak for me or the vast majority of Americans than does Michael Moore.

  21. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Try telling that to AIG after they lost 27% of the value of my retirement 403b!

    First tell us how much they made for you before the bubble burst.

    And if they are so evil and you’re so smart, why didn’t you see it coming? Why didn’t you roll it over into an IRA and take control of the funds?

    Yeah, it was AIG’s fault – they lot 27% after growing the fund by 30%.

  22. qq — so wall street blew up in 2008 because too many people were screwing with their 401(k) and make bad investments? is this really your position?

  23. beerBoy says:

    “Pavese was a member of the Italian Communist Party?”

    Yes, aren’t nearly all artist and poets?

    As brother Marx once said, “I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.”

  24. took1 –well if you had read the letter…all two of the comments previous to mine; you would then understand the context. i agreed with the letter and with the sentiment of the both of the comments. i was offering some evidence as to our why our shared sentiment might be the case.

  25. qq98411 says:

    jelle – nope not my position at all, I am unsure how you interpreted it that way.

    Please explain your logic about how Wall St “blew up” Honestly what you are saying makes no sense and I am asking for assistance in your interpretation.

    You individual 401k is under your control. I am not sure how you don’t know that. They can only invest in an instrument if you approve of that investment. You want a high risk investment, you must acknowledge it and approve of it. If you want low risk, you must acknowledge it and approve of it.

    A checking/savings account insured by the FDIC is one of a few accounts insured against loss. Even then there is a limit to the amount. An investment account by definition involves an element of risk where the principle can be lost in the investment.

    Sucky investment houses tend to lose money, sucky investment vehicles tend to lose money, but that does not make them criminal.

    Also as Vox pointed out and I’ll add that history is no indication of future gains. Because a fund made money last year at a great rate does not mean that they will make money at any particular rate next year. If anything any, yes any gain out of the ordinary should provide a moment of caution moving forward.

    If Occupy is going to damn Wall street them please focus on the criminals first. There you have a case.

    Sucky investments, sucky people making investments… sorry there you don’t.

  26. beerBoy says:

    Even the IMF gets it once in awhile:

    Recent research by economists Michael Kumhof and Romain Rancière at the International Monetary Fund shows that investors were recycling their higher incomes into loans, a process that is inherently unstable in the face of stagnant incomes for low- and moderate-income households. As demand dries up because of stagnating incomes, those at the top have great incentives to expand credit to keep up purchasing power, but if incomes do not recover, this, as we have seen, is an unstable system.


    In other words folks, the rich aren’t creating jobs or manufacturing anything other than debt “products”. The “post-industrial” economy created in the past 30 years is nothing but pyramids of debt – the ultimate of all Ponzi schemes which all of us pay into but only those at the very top reap benefits.

    And, yes, this is once again pointing the the heaping pile of dung in the middle of the carpet without a solution….but, wait a minute….I have posted some steps towards solution on other threads. But, for qq I will put some suggestions forward:

    1) Re-regulate the financial industry
    2) Fund the SEC enforcement efforts more fully
    3) Recognize corporate entities (including Unions) as fictional entities that have very limited powers – not the rights of personhood.
    4) Audit the Fed
    5) Establish National and State banks
    6) Reclaim the power of coining currency from the International Banks
    7) Provide incentives to return a manufacturing economy to this nation.
    8) Develop regulations/laws that attack the cancer of Congressional insider trading, Lobbying, and other clear conflicts of interest.

  27. qq98411 says:

    Thank you for the scoop and shovel… finally ;)

    One issue is I would caution the premise that debt was created to the exclusion of manufacturing. Others can speak to this better than me but we still are king when it comes to manufacturing, the world is just catching up with up.

    I would add the following:

    1) Effective regulate the financial industry, we do not want to choke them now do we. Their are regulations… lots of ‘em. Delete those that don’t make sense. Alter those that are effective without choking the industry and keeps us competative. We cannot play by rules that handcuff us while the rest of the world plays at will.

    2) Stop them from watching porn first

    4) OK

    5) Why? Are you talking government sponsored? Heck frickin’ no, they can’t even control an annual budget, Freddie and Fannie, now GM, sucky investments in solar… just stop and slap yourself here man.

    7) What incentives? Lower capital gains, competetive wages, right to work? That sounds good to me.

    :) Are we sure there is nothing on the books now that can’t be tweaked first before we go creating all kind of new rules?

  28. redneckbuck says:

    Occupy = socialism!

  29. SafewayOrangeSoda says:

    I stopped paying attention to the “OWS” freaks when they started beating up hot dog vendors and pooping on police cars.
    Quickest way to damn your cause, people- turn it into the smelly fringe.

  30. Well there is one thing about these characters. At least they arent adding to the choked up highway system around here driving to JOBS!

    As far as taking them seriously? I guess every culture needs a court jester or two. It IS after all, cheap entertainment.

    Sorry occupiers…Wall Street aint going away, and The Wizard of Ozbama aint gonna save you.

    Have fun with that.

  31. beerBoy says:

    According to the CBO
    The manufacturing sector of the U.S. economy has experienced substantial job losses over the past several years. In January 2004, the number of such jobs stood at 14.3 million, down by 3.0 million jobs, or 17.5 percent, since July 2000 and about 5.2 million since the historical peak in 1979. Employment in manufacturing was its lowest since July 1950

    However, there are sources that suggest that all is not lost:

    The Boston Consulting Group (BCG) is forecasting a major uptick in U.S. manufacturing. Key quote from their most recent study:
    “Over the next five years, a U.S. manufacturing renaissance in home appliances, car parts, and other sectors could accelerate—boosting output by $100 billion and adding 2 million to 3 million jobs.”


  32. beerBoy says:

    qq – I don’t expect Occupy to create solutions.

    The ONLY good that is ever going to come from the Movement is that it is making us take notice at the dung pile on the carpet. And maybe, just maybe, some politicians (Dem/Repub/whatever) are going to realize that it would be a winning proposition for them to start addressing that stinking, fly infested same ol’ sh…t that passes as Beltway business as usual.

  33. “sozo, You wish no one was listening. But, sorry to say my friend, THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING! ”

    I said “listening.” It’s virtually impossible not to watch, but whatever validity was given to these occupations originally is essentially gone.

    As for the controversial quote, can everyone just be honest about this?

    The vocal “left” led by the likes of multi-millionaire landowner Michael Moore who apparently has no shame in making some of his $$$ in a movie bashing capitalism, loves to portray itself as being kinder and gentler, more compassionate than those on the right. The public has no idea how insulting this is…the presumption that they need big brother to look after them. They just swallow the kinder-gentler pill and head to the park to protest.Why not, it feels so good to stroke one’s ego with this belief.

    Please understand, I think that corrupt business practices should be identified, and measures take to insure social justice, but the general tone of the occupation is actually a stab at those who don’t go along with this Plantation Ideology.

    I personally believe that the “slaves” on the plantation are capable of being free and making it on their own. I believe they don’t need a master and an overseer because they are too stupid to figure life out for themselves. I believe they while they may never be rich, they will discover that working for a wage in a free society feels a lot better than being taken care of by Big Daddy. Heck, some of them might figure out that there was no shame in going to technical school to master a trade rather than attend a liberal arts college where all they learned to do was articulate the evils of capitalism.

    And the real beauty of it is this, some of them will prove to be industrious and clever enough to actually get rich…and hire lots and lots of others who want to experience the reward of living free and independent of the dole.

    But that’s just me.

  34. beerBoy says:

    sozo – there has been a false dichotomy put forward that demands that one either fully supports the Speculative Debt Product economy (falsely labeled as Capitalism) or one is a “Socialist”.

    I have to wonder if you actually saw Moore’s “Capitalism, A Love Story”. If you had you would have seen that he is (as he has since his first “Roger and Me”) lamenting the destruction of the type of Capitalism based upon manufacturing that built a strong and vibrant Middle Class in America – not “bashing Capitalism”.

    The jobless recoveries since the Reagan Era have ignored what Henry Ford knew – you need to have a prosperous working class in order to buy the products and have a strong economy – it made up for the lost in real wages with credit. The bubble has burst.

    Those of us who criticize a society that only values people who can manipulate perceptions to raise stock prices or manipulate numbers to create virtual debt derivatives aren’t anti-capitalist. We just want a type of Capitalism that actually works.

    Paradoxically, the “conservatives” embrace a neo-liberal economic philosophy that is based in image while the “liberals” are nostalgically pining for a classical model of Capitalism.

  35. RW98512 says:

    ““no one will listen any other way?” No one is actually listening now.”

    Everytime there is a forum about this subject –

    you can count on one commenter to say he “doesn’t understand OWS” and comments several times over about everything he doesn’t understand.

    another will tell you about his latest trip to OWS Tacoma and how they are just dirty hippies.

    a bevy more will voice their opinions about dirty hippies.

    BUT –

    no one is listening to OWS.

  36. RW98512 says:

    of course, I could be wrong.

    It wouldn’t be the first time that Conservatives weren’t listening.

  37. beerBoy says:

    RW – sozo is one of the more honest conservative commentators here as she owns her lingering feelings of resentment from the 60s of perceiving that she was badly treated for not being part of the hip(pie) crowd.

  38. qq98411 says:

    bb – I was talking about our manufacturing compared to the planet. Though we are low, we still out manufacture countries. They are indeed catching up. That was my point. We have to make ourselves competitive.

    No solutions… fine then at least stop pooping, figuratively speaking of course. They are about to cost families associated with the shipping industry millions in wages, business millions in cost (which they will pass on to consumers)… do they really have to keep pooping on the carpet… stop and help to find solutions.

  39. qq98411 says:

    Then stop pooping on the carpet and tell us what Occupy is all about, what they want to accomplish, how they want to build a better America, how they want to include all Americans in their vision for America… by the way what is there vision for America?

    Anything or just more conservative bashing? Be better than me, according to you it shouldn’t be too hard.

    Show us the way… comrade…

  40. tellnolies says:

    “Plantation Ideology.” “Occupy = socialism!” “whole lefty project is about making children of us all”


    “there has been a false dichotomy put forward that demands that one either fully supports the Speculative Debt Product economy (falsely labeled as Capitalism) or one is a “Socialist”.

    …most here aren’t actually listening Beerboy… This is really more a place to vent than have meaningful conversation. The nature of anonymous internet forums (there are better ones than this, actually) makes meaningful conversation difficult, though it will break out from time to time…

  41. qq98411 says:

    you too tellnolies, what you got to offer about the Occupy movement…

    Help this forum to the internet promise land of discourse…

  42. tellnolies says:

    I’ve pretty much given up on internet forums as a place for real discourse, though I still frequent some of them to get an idea of what others are thinking…

    It’s too easy to let the emotions go when one is anonymous…I’ve done it myself, and I’m not proud of that.

    I support the general OWS message that a more balanced system is needed. I personally don’t believe it’s purely an economic matter, there is a lot of cultural, religious, and political baggage, worldwide, that needs to go….

  43. LarryFine says:

    beerBoy says:
    Dec. 8, 2011 at 7:42 am According to the CBO…

    bB – are you suggesting that the CBO is somehow pure and not subject to manipulating statistics for political gain?

  44. LarryFine says:

    I, too, support OWS… I just wish more democrats would endorse them publicly.

  45. muckibr says:

    Here’s a suggested chant for the OWSers, (with apologies to the late great Beatle – John Lennon…)

    “All we are saying is … give wealth redistribution from the ultra-rich back to the middle-class from whom they stole it … a chance!”

  46. beerBoy says:

    I was talking about our manufacturing compared to the planet. Though we are low, we still out manufacture countries. They are indeed catching up. That was my point. We have to make ourselves competitive.

    The whole “at least we are better than other countries are” doesn’t really play when the reality is – we are less well off than we were.

    Unfortunately it seems that there are more than a few braintrusts who believe that the only way we can make ourselves more competitive is to lower living standards (by lowering compensations for workers) for the majority of Americans. That is a non-starter in my book.

  47. beerBoy says:

    LF – Be careful what you wish for: while the majority of Americans don’t consider themselves Occupy activists, the majority of Americans are sympathetic with the message(s) that have been associated with the Movement.

    I, for one, don’t want the Dems to try to own it. But I would be more than happy if the politicos would change their policies due to it.

  48. bb – why do you interpret stuff… frig, never mind just the way it is.

    OK, standard, that is not what I said nor what I meant… sorry you interpreted it that way, blah, blah, blah… that’s it in the disclaimer column, movin’ on…

    We are better than other countries though other countries have improved, some tremendously over (insert period of time here since WWII).

    That is an important piece of information to solve the problem. Focus on the issue – more competition, they are cheaper, they cost less, measure product quality compared to us, etc…

    Then and only then can a solution be found. Most of the brain trust I hear is an attempt to raise the cost of doing business here when that is one of the issues contributing to the problem.

    Whether you like it or not what is easier, raise the standard of living for the rest of the world or lower our standard. Not trying to make a false choice between these two but that is one of the ying/yang’s tugging at the purse strings.

    What is a starter in your book?

  49. I’ll bite telli…

    What do yo mean by “more balanced system” – I am asking so that I know what you mean as oppose to assume what you mean.

    Second – baggage needs to go? Are we talking Occupy needs to focus on a limited specific message? Not sure what you mean here either.

    From what I know corporate excess and government corruption can be a broad topic and the Occupy powers that be can expand that to mean anything really.

    Today – housing is a right – is being played out in NYC. I don’t see that as part of the ‘corporate excess’ catagory. It is just something they are doing to garner attention, ???

  50. qq — mucki had made a comment about AIG and his retirement. you responded by saying that the banks have nothing to do with your retirement, that all responsibility is on the investor to make wise choices. you are then insinuating that the reason wall street blew up (remember 2008?) was that too many people were fiddling with their retirement funds.
    you then denied that anything happened at all on wall street, while at the same time blaming individual investors for what you admit happened on wall street.

  51. jelle – Wall street does serve a purpose, if you have a pension, Wall Street serves a purpose. I agree with concerns words.

    I said you are responsible for the funds in your 401k, you entrust your funds to a company to assist with managing those funds. Unless they did something criminal, they are not responsible if your fund loses money. That is what I said.

    I don’t insinuate nothing, if I thought Wall St did something I would say it. I have absolutely no clue how you come to that conclusion. Fiddling… wtf is that?

    Again where did I deny anything? Dude can’t help you if you go off the deep end with interpretations.

    Government, Wall St and John Q. Public all bear responsibility for what happened.

    Any questions, please ask. Interpretation, insinuations, etc… keep em’.

  52. jellee, qq… allow me to clarify my remarks on AIG, 403b and the loss.

    I had been screwed over before on a 401k retirement account at a previous employer (a big bank as a matter of fact). I trusted the plan managers to perform their fiduciary duties and responsibilities, but their incompetent investing strategy caused our 401k plans to stagnate, rather than grow.

    So, after I was laid off from the bank when it went out of business, I went to work for another employer (a medical organization this time) and I specifically asked that my retirement funds be placed in a simple savings account with guaranteed interest. I was told that was NOT an option under the plan, but that I could request my funds be placed in a “conservative” investment groups that was “just like a savings account.”

    As it turned out, the conservative investment group was nothing at all like a savings account, and I lost 27% of the value of my account during the 2008 crash long before I had a chance to withdraw my funds. That means, all my employers matching contributions, plus some portion of my own payroll deduction contributions to my retirement account were lost out of my account and ended up in someone else’s account, because… as we all know, money in Wall Street just does not evaporate, it is redistributed to “more knowledgeable investors.” Otherwise known as, the ultra-rich who just keep getting richer and richer and richer for some reason, while everyone else loses.

    It is, my friends, a Zero Sum Game, and some people will not be satisfied until we the poor have a Zero Sum. I reject that, and that is why I hope and pray the Occupy Movement is wildly successful and there is an ultimate redistribution or wealth back to the people from whom that wealth was stolen from.

    Thus endeth the lesson.

  53. muck: “Here’s a suggested chant for the OWSers, (with apologies to the late great Beatle – John Lennon…)

    One of the huge differences between progs and conservatives. Watch any leftist protest, and you’ll find chanting. And most progs don’t even realize that when they chant their little chants, they seem ridiculously immature to average folks. Most people stopped following the bouncing ball when they switched from Brakeman Bill to Gilligan’s island.

    muck: “All we are saying is … give wealth redistribution from the ultra-rich back to the middle-class from whom they stole it … a chance!”

    Did someone come and rob you? Did some guy jump out of his limo, stick a gun in your face, and take your wallet? Maybe you should figure out a way to better your lot in life. That, or admit you don’t have the drive, and quit with the jealousy thing.

  54. BTW qq.., you wrote about Wall Street fund managers saying, “Unless they did something criminal, they are not responsible if your fund loses money.”

    I still do not understand how anyone who knows anything about the Mortgage Backed Securities scam can continue to deny that it was CRIMINAL FRAUD. Refusing to admit that fraudulent action on the part of greedy hedge fund managers, and others in the financial scamming industry i.e. Wall Street, is definitely “ostrich burying its head in the sand thinking!”

    Denial is NOT a river in Egypt, it is a fools’ way out of admitting the TRUTH!

  55. lanq, just read my comments above and below your latest message. It is self explanatory, even for you.

  56. tellnolies says:

    QQ – by balanced I mean both a more equitable distribution of goods and services, for all people, everywhere. I also extend that to the environment, whatever we do, if we want our species to survive and thrive, it has to be sustainable environmentally. Can’t have infinite growth in a finite system.

    “Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.” Edward Abbey

    The baggage I refer to would be the current world “system”. Advances in technology, primarily communications and transportation technologies, have made nationalism irrelevent or worse. We just haven’t caught up culturally with our technology, IMO.

    AS for corporate excess, what is sufficient for an individuals needs has been far overshot by the consumer culture…but I’m not going to tell you, or anyone else, what is sufficient…somehow we all need to reach some sort of agreement on that. How? Not sure…it may not even be possible…

    The issue of “rights” is always under development…”rights” are a social agreement…they do not exist without an agreement by most of society as to what they should be, and what “rights” are has changed over time…and should.

    As for the capitalism/socialism debate…that’s not even worth having, neither “works” in a pure form…they both end up promoting a tiny number to the top while leaving most in a precarious situation.

    It will be interesting to see what happens over the next several decades…

  57. jellee, thanks for your understanding of what I was attempting to get explain to some of the denser members of this forum. Maybe they’ll get it now, or maybe we need to get the crayons out and draw them a picture.

  58. Pacman33 says:

    bB –
    “As brother Marx once said, ‘I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member’.”

    LOL. I bet he was quite the character.

    “All I know is I’m not a Marxist.”
    ~ Karl Marx

    “If Karl, instead of writing a lot about capital, had made a lot of it … it would have been much better.”
    ~ Henrietta Marx – On her son

  59. qq — i really have to go go slow with you for some reason. you are absolving the banks. you are claiming that masses of individuals are SOOO actively involved with their retirement, that they screwed them up.
    you are supposing that these same studious and vigilant people are the ones who blew up wall street, in spite of the banks, who were only trying to help…
    and as for the criminality? ask the SEC. ask the delaware attorney general. ask the united states attorney general.

  60. “Did someone come and rob you? Did some guy jump out of his limo, stick a gun in your face, and take your wallet?”

    Stick up men make a little money, white collar criminals make a lot.

  61. tellnolies — i was watching discussion on the tv the other day, and while there was much debate…all agreed that profit is inherently good in and of itself. i looked at my buddy and we both just laughed.

  62. Pacman33 says:

    tellnolies barely musters –
    “As for the capitalism/socialism debate…that’s not even worth having, neither “works” in a pure form… ”

    When was the last time you witnessed pure capitalism or anything close to resembling capitalism in its pure form? Spare us the lazy leftist cop-out; national defense/vital services = socialism bit if possible, please.

  63. BlaineCGarver says:

    Who was it that made this 1% and 99% Kook Aid? What a load of BS. There is not one person in America that knows what “tough” is. Talk to some of the WWII generation to find out what the Real Depression was all about.

  64. tellnolies says:

    “you witnessed” personally? I’m not that old, but the history of the Robber Baron era is there for anyone to see, as is the history of the last century, and the abuses of socialism. Blended economies weren’t created for grins…they came about as reaction to excess. There’s that word again…

    One could say, about either, that it wasn’t “pure”. Perhaps, but they were close enough. Why put your hand in the flame when you already know it’s hot?

    “profit is inherently good in and of itself”
    That IS funny…it’s neither good nor bad inherently, but it isn’t really usefull either, it becomes a distraction at best, at worst it becomes a goal in itself. We don’t need profits, we need goods and services….

  65. yeah…income inequality is “tough”. just shut up and take it!

    oh yeah, the WWII generation were the benefit of healthy taxation of the rich…

  66. tellnolies, you gotta consider the source on some of these comments when Pacman33 apparently doesn’t know the difference between Groucho and Karl Marx.

  67. c’mon pacman….I gave you a big hint by writing “brother” Marx – as in the Marx Brothers.

    “A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.”
    Groucho Marx

  68. tellnolies says:

    As I said earlier, muckibr, I really think most come here to vent, not engage in conversation…and that can be useful too. Better to blow off some steam anonymously on the internet than explode in real life…

    Have a good day everyone…

  69. muckibr says:

    beerBoy, I thought your “brother Marx” comment was really funny when I first read it, but it turned so sad when it became obvious that Pacman33 didn’t get it. Time to get out the crayons I guess.

  70. qq98411 says:

    Tell – appreciate the response we’ll give it a shot. Thanks for your perspective, it becomes a lens I can see your point from. Picking one… Corporate excess.

    I cannot nor will not quibble over how a much a person demands and receives for his labor. How much is enough, I have no clue, whatever the market can command. I don’t believe that CEO’s are evil because they are compensated a large amount, especially when compared to the past scales for CEO’s. I think they become a scapegoat for what has occurred over the past few years. Government as well as the consumer help the fiasco as far as I am concerned. One cannot blame one without taking at least a look at the other two also.

    Rights – I might be unsure where the ‘social agreement’ line is here but there are natural ‘right’ that all human beings have, period. The right to life, worship, self-defense, along those lines.

    We as a society have made a social contract over how we exercise those rights but we need to ensure that the right of any human being is not infringed upon.

    These don’t change, the right to life is universal, has never nor will ever change. The right to self-defense is universal, has never nor will ever change. I may be speaking of the concept here. How we exercise those rights appears to get a little tricky.

  71. qq98411 says:

    jelle – see my response to you, I made no such claim. See my response to mucky, my response there was based on an individual claim not the ‘masses’. You are responsible for your 401k how this eludes you sir is a mystery.

    If you have a specific case against a specific Wall St company then make it instead of this ‘they suck eggs, they are criminal, they hurt my mommy stuff’

    I also said the responsibility is SHARED between government, Wall St and John Q Public (that would be you and me) for what happened. Again how this little ditty eludes you is a mystery.

  72. qq98411 says:

    mucky – once again we must do the disclaimer thingy… nope never said there was no criminal activity. If there is criminal activity then prove it, if guilty then punish until various cavities bleed for all I care.

    Greed is not a crime, a personality flaw but nope not a crime. If you are claiming criminal fraud then please make the case and I will be second in line with the whipping stick. This, can’t you see it stuff doesn’t fly. Remember you keep telling us we conservatives are idiots. Fine, pretend we are two year olds, get the crayons out and spell it out.

    Cool mucky..

  73. muckibr says:

    qq… I don’t have to prove that some of you act like children, when you prove it in your own posting by devolving to name calling (i.e. mucky) as a child would do. You expose and condemn yourself. I don’t need to.

    As regards CRIME:

    The Criminal Division of the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of New York is responsible for the enforcement of federal criminal laws within the district.

    The office has played a leading role in prosecutions of cases arising out of the 2008 market collapse, including its prosecution of two Credit Suisse brokers who defrauded their clients of nearly $1 billion by selling them mortgage-backed securities disguised as safer securities backed by government-guaranteed student loans.


  74. qq98411 says:

    Fine, a few cases. They did not cause the meltdown, nor is Wall St soley responsible. Again government policies, lack fo enforcement, inconsistent enforcement and consumer behavior all contributed to the meltdown.

    No where in my various postings am I saying Wall St might not have acted in a criminal manner.

  75. beerBoy says:

    I’ll give qq this:

    Prior to the meltdown there was an absurd expectation that publicly traded companies would increase profits by 20% each and every year and that your house was a magic money machine that you could borrow against and it would pay back the loans by huge gains in value.

    I thought it was absurd then but my perception was that I was definitely in the minority. A lot of the American public were very happily riding the bubbles while they lasted.

  76. qq98411 says:

    We know what they are against… we don’t know what they are for and how they propose to get there.

    Their actions are disruptive to the economy and a case can be made that they are contributing to making it worst. A planned west coast shutdown will cost the region millions of dollars. If the goal is to get attention, you already had it. That is painfully obvious.

    Now what are you supporters of the movement going to do moving forward now?

  77. “RW – sozo is one of the more honest conservative commentators here as she owns her lingering feelings of resentment from the 60s of perceiving that she was badly treated for not being part of the hip(pie) crowd”

    Not sure where you got this notion, bB. I was very hip and very much accepted by the hip in college. Occasionally a growing suspicion that I was being indoctrinated would move me to ask questions that rattled the accepted ideology, and the older I got, the more often this happened. One day, when I was a fully grown adult, I came to understand some of what I wrote about above.

    I am honest though, so will confess I did not see Moore’s movie. I don’t trust him and I don’t want to add to his earnings, but if what you say is true, I can’t argue. As I have said, I am fully aware that there is extreme disease in the system at this point and there’s plenty of room for a shake up and a house cleaning. That said, I don’t trust Barrack Obama and his cohorts one bit. The more I hear the less I like.

  78. beerBoy says:

    You know, of course, that the banks that got into trouble due to risky derivative speculation and received TARP and Fed bailouts (in the trillions) because they were too big to fail took that money and bought out the “not big enough to save” banks and then increased their derivative risk exponentially in European markets – all made possible because the Congress and the Fed tied no strings to the money and refused to make any meaningful reforms to the lax regulations……an even bigger crisis is primed.

  79. qq98411 says:

    This is not the first time, it has heppened before…. tech bubble. I remember as a firefighter guys coming in talking about all the money they were making via tech stocks. A Ford 150 became a 250. A Chevy SUV became a Hummer… all was great until…

    The bubble burst and of course capital gains taxes. The Ford 250 and Hummer was replaced by a Geo.

    When I was investing, I read a book on the pyschology of investing and it simply broke it down to three powerful emotions – greed, fear and indecision. Greed appears to be the most powerful of the three. There is not a regulation you could create to control that emotion and associated action.

  80. qq98411 says:

    Like I am trying to tell these people, cool with the Wall street focus but you gotta add DC to the mix too.

  81. muckibr says:

    So I prove to qq… that there was criminal activity involved in the sale and resale of Mortgage Backed Securities, which led to the world-wide financial meltdown, and he said if I did prove the case he would “be second in line with the whipping stick.” but instead he chooses to pooh-pooh it all and change the subject.

    Well, qq… also wrote, “Greed is not a crime, a personality flaw but nope not a crime.”

    To that foolish statement I seek a higher authority that The Criminal Division of the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of New York to disprove what qq… has mis-stated as fact,

    What is Greed?

    Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth, goods, or abstract things of value with the intention to keep it for one’s self.

    In short: GREED is THE LOVE OF MONEY!

    “The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil” 1 Timothy 6:10

    And Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 18:23-24

    Why would Jesus single out the “rich man” in this case? Simply because of GREED, which is a crime in God’s eyes!


  82. qq98411 says:

    Mucky, I am whipping the guy right now, told you I would.

    and greed, you are going to pull the God card. Now who is changing the subject, puleaze…

    hey those families affected by the port shutdown, why don’t you say one of those prayers for them.

    you can ignore me again if you like…

  83. I don’t think Jesus cares if you’re rich unless your riches are more important to you than God.

  84. muckibr says:

    Exactly the point sozo!

  85. qq98411 says:

    mucky one more time, I never made any claims about the lack of criminal behavior on Wall St. I am whipping the boyz right now as I said I would and liking it…

    The Jesus card… dude I don’t care, being greddy is not a crime. Stealing money is, convict the b-tard and move on…

    you can put me on ignore, if you like… mucky ;)

  86. qq98411 says:

    by the way, changing the subject??? no, dude, Occupy is the subject!

    How about the families of those affected by the port shutdown, what do we tell the little kids when daddy is unable to afford a Christmas gift because they stopped him from going to work… ;)

    Jesus’ birthday man, that is cold and Occupy is to blame…

    Working for the 99% those Occupy dudes they are…

  87. muckibr says:

    qq… You keep writing one thing then later when you are called on it you say you were misinterpreted, didn’t say that, were misquoted, whatever.

    I’d really like to help you out here, so I have drafted a disclaimer you might want to use for ALL of your future posts. Try adding this to the bottom of everything you post from here on out, okay?

    qq98411 -> Standard Disclaimer Statement: I am sure you understood what it is you read that I wrote, but I am NOT sure that you realize what I wrote is NOT what I meant.

  88. qq98411 says:

    mucky – between you and jelle accusing me…

    dude show me where I said Wall St was not responsible… never said it period…

    so you hate kids and want them to starve because Occupy is shutting down the ports. (I know you never said it but its fun to accuse right mucky)

    Trying to get back on subject but just keep ignoring it… no biggie

  89. Waitasec here! Brakeman Bill had a bouncing ball? All I remember was “Crazy Donkey”!!!

    Hmmmm…..Anti Everything Occupiers….and Crazy Donkey? I think we might be on to something here!! HAAA!

  90. aislander says:

    So…if “greed is a crime in God’s eyes,” why is it not mentioned in the Decalogue, while envy is?

  91. LarryFine says:

    Bingo…. aislander.

  92. The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
    1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
    2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
    3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
    4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
    5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
    6 “You shall not murder.
    7 “You shall not commit adultery.
    8 “You shall not steal.
    9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    10 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

    Where is the word “envy” in any of the above?

  93. aislander says:

    WHAT is your deal, mucky? Covet: Main Entry:
    covet  [kuhv-it] Show IPA
    Part of Speech: verb
    Definition: desire strongly
    Synonyms: aspire to, begrudge, choose, crave, desiderate, envy, fancy, hanker for, have eye on, have hots for, itch for, long for, lust after, spoil for, thirst for, want, wish for, yearn for, yen for
    Antonyms: abjure, be generous, give, not want

  94. Dictionary

    covet |ˈkəvət|
    verb ( coveted , coveting ) [ trans. ]
    yearn to possess or have (something) : the president-elect covets time for exercise and fishing | [as adj. ] ( coveted) he won the coveted Booker Prize for fiction.
    covetable adjective
    ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French cuveitier, based on Latin cupiditas (see cupidity ).

    even with all they have, they covet the wealth of others: desire, yearn for, crave, have one’s heart set on, want, wish for, long for, hanker after/for, hunger after/for, thirst for.

    The above is from my online dictionary. Where in any of that is the word “envy”?

  95. Now, I was going to save this and wait for aislander’s next comment, but since aislander may be blocked due to his/her uncivil and profane comment to me at 11:16 PM, I decided to go ahead and share this.

    First of all, The Ten Commandments are not Christian laws. They are, in fact, Jewish Laws, given to Moses by God to instruct the Jews who had escaped from Egypt.

    And besides that, I have already proven that “envy” is not included within the body of The Ten Commandments, but that’s neither here nor there, because the original claim by aislander was an assertion that “greed” was/is NOT a sin, and “envy” is.

    Well, has anyone ever heard of the list of The Seven Deadly Sins?

    (From Wikipedia) The 7 Deadly Sins, also known as the Capital Vices or Cardinal Sins, is a classification of objectionable vices that have been used since early Christian times to educate and instruct followers concerning fallen humanity’s tendency to sin. The currently recognized version of the sins are usually given as:

    1. wrath
    2. GREED <<<< LOOK! What is that? Is that a SIN ?!?!?!
    3. sloth
    4. pride
    5. lust
    6. envy
    7. gluttony.

    By the way, The Ten Commandments are Jewish. Jesus gave Christians The Two Commandments that supersede the 10.

  96. qq… wrote, “Greed is not a crime, a personality flaw but nope not a crime.”

    and aislander followed-up with “if “greed is a crime in God’s eyes,” why is it not mentioned in the Decalogue, while envy is?” (Note: ais… is wrong, because neither envy or greed is mentioned in The Ten Commandments.)

    I have proven that GREED in much, much, more than simply a “personality flaw.” Greed is one of The Seven Deadly Sins according to longstanding Christian teaching, and a SIN is a CRIME in God’s eyes.

    At least one of the goals of the Occupy Movement that really matters would naturally be to get the rich to stop committing the sin/crime of GREED!

  97. qq98411 says:

    why do you hate children by allowing occupiers to shutdown ports on the west coast?

    Their parents will not be able to work, they will not be able to buy food, there will be no money to buy food, their will be no food on the shelf it will rot on the boats.

    greed is not a crime, the state says it is not.

  98. qq98411 says:

    Why do occupiers hate children in New York?

    They flooded a workplace where people were working, where union people were working, where people were providing labor in exchange for money, where that money money goes to buy shelter and food for their children.

    Why do occupiers hate children?

  99. beerBoy says:

    Our politcos are making sure that subsidies/tax credits for oil are not going to be cut in any attempt to balance the budget

  100. qq98411 says:

    bb – in all this muck I realized I didnt agree with your post about consumer GREED.

    During the 90’s literally every day would be talk of the stocks they own, price appreciation, etc… Ford F-150’s became F-250’s, Cars became SUV’s, a few boats showed up on trailers.

    Then… poof the bubble popped. The F-250s were back to Ford Rangers, SUVs became Geo Prizms and the boats were distance memories. Between piss poor money management and captial gains taxes, the wealth created was gone.

    The consumer was not inicent in all this.

  101. LarryFine says:

    Darn, I missed aislander’s 11:16 post. :(

    It must have been a good one since apparently muck flagged it…and his 11:15 one thoroughly ate muck’s lunch… again.

  102. aislander says:

    See…the deal is that muck–on another thread–accused me of unethical conduct in using someone else’s material without attribution, actually using the word, “plagiarism.”. He provided no proof to support that accusation, nor will he be able to, since the material is original to me.

    Making such an accusation without proof is unethical, and I DO have muck’s accusation to support my contention that muck acted unethically.

    Since I now know for certain that muck is unethical–I know who is for certain–I intend to stay out of the muck…

  103. aislander says:

    muckibr wrote: “He/she (aislander) didn’t say it. He/she (aislander) simply copied what somebody else wrote and pasted it here in this blog. Whether or not it is “plausible” is besides the point. It is, I believe, plagiarism, and thus does not deserve a challenge.”

    So, which was worse: my 11:16 PM comment or THAT?

  104. beerBoy says:

    muck–on another thread–accused

    Is that your new name for someone accused as being a Kard?

  105. aislander says:

    LarryFine: The quote was “a CRIME in God’s eyes,” which became a “sin” in a later post. IF we are talking “crime,” the Ten Commandments pertains, but if we are now talking about a “sin,” attempting to slime out of an untenable position does–just more questionable ethics, which is now expected…

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