Letters to the Editor

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WEALTH: Capitalism requires participation

Letter by Chris A. Talbert, Tacoma on Nov. 18, 2011 at 11:34 am with 261 Comments »
November 18, 2011 11:57 am

Don’t resent the rich, join them.

The beauty of capitalism, as practiced in the United States, is that it is open to all. The American experience is replete with hard-luck success stories, the downtrodden rising to great heights on little more than perseverance and hard work.

But there’s the rub. Those who are squatting in public places throughout the nation are not interested in hard work or its rewards. What they want is no less than state enforced wealth redistribution. They should look at the ruins of the Soviet Union, or the human-rights of those in Venezuela or Cuba.

What we have is a generation that has confused “rights” with “entitlement.” You may have the right to own a gun, but the state is not required to buy that gun for you. If your student loans are crippling, it’s your signature at the bottom of that loan. If you envy the wealth of the top one percent, then compete against them and be that wealthy altruist you so vociferously call for today.

The top 15 percent pay 85 percent of the taxes in this country, and I’m not sure how much more blood we can get from that stone. Before we dump on capitalism and wealth, take the ear-buds out and look at your i-phone: it is a prime example of profit-driven ingenuity and could not be produced under any other system than capitalism.

Leave a comment Comments → 261
  1. LarryFine says:

    Well stated Chris.

  2. “Those who are squatting in public places throughout the nation are not interested in hard work or its rewards. What they want is no less than state enforced wealth redistribution.”

    Yet another claim to be able to read minds.

  3. Keep telling yourself that the Speculator Economy we have is really Capitalism and that anyone who doesn’t stand up and salute the flag of Wall Street is a dirty, lazy, jealous Commie.

    Might make you feel better but it won’t help bring jobs back to America.

  4. That is one of the most ignorant letters I’ve read in a long time. Our ‘Capalist’ system is broken. The Corporations and their shareholders (the rich) have all the power and wealth. The middle class is quickly eroding and the now there are more poor than ever before.
    Americans in general do not have a basic understanding of our history, our Constitution, Bill of Rights etc. Chris’s letter is reflective of the people that blame others for thier economic plight and think that folks who are out of work, out of a house, on the street, hungry etc. – have only themselves to blame. Wrong!!
    The young people in this country have it right with OWS. They see the corruption in the system. The lack of leadership in our Congress and the corruption by the powerful. It may not be a coherent movement, but they are saying something important and that is why we are called a ‘Democracy’. If you don’t like it Chris- go live somewhere else!! These people love their country just as much as anyone else and to cheap shot them by calling them commies or anything else isn’t goint to stand up anymore!!1

  5. stumpy567 says:

    Let’s penalize those who prosper.
    It will, no doubt, inspire those who have less to have more.
    Make sense?
    It must to the 99% They’re simply frustrated with themselves.

  6. Chris – you are wrong.
    The majority of Americans (including the OWS people) want JOBS that allow them to earn what they want and need.

  7. tomwa007 says:

    Chris, have you ever read Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”? If you had, you failed to realize how 100 years later we are in the same situation.

    Spout you Tea Bag mantra but take time to get an education before you write such drivel.

    Yes, Democracy is broken and it was in 1900. NO corporation, domestic foreign, gives money to a candidate or government officials without expecting payback and they want taxpayer dollars and to keep them is servitude.

    It took the US citizens in the form of the Unions (who are now as guilty as the corporations for the same crap) to make a change.

    The same thing is happening again.

  8. Shouldn’t be about penalizing – its about optimizing for the benefit of the most. I’ve heard capitalism explained in terms of a circulatory system – for capitalism to work optimally, capital must flow freely throughout the system from buyer to seller to buyer to seller, etc. When we continue to outsource our labor to countries with low standards of living, or require suppressed wages of laborers so stock performance climbs at the demanded rate, the gain is enjoyed primarily by the stockholder. Repeat this scenario a million times over, you can see how capital becomes congested in the upper-most echelons of our society. Continue trade and tax policies that further diminish the middle class, and wealth will not circulate in a manner necessary for healthy economy across all income levels. It’s a sad day when communist China outperforms our economic growth – what does that say about the status quo? How’s ‘tickle down economics’ doing these days? The occupy movement may not possess the desired level of articulation in their arguments, but then again neither do most of the politicians vying for candidacy these days!

  9. sandblower says:

    norsey, your observations are far above the heads of many who try to push their agendas here. Thanks for writing.

  10. SadujTogracse says:

    Sorry but I’m not hearing any hard solutions on how to “fix” things. All I’m hearing is whining about the “1%” and how they are evil and bad because they have something the 99% don’t. Get rid of corruption, ok… HOW? Most everyone in the nation doesn’t want corruption, what I want to hear is how to rectify the situation. Too often all I’ve heard are calls to drastically change our capitalist system into something totally different.

    I mean seriously, it’s been 2 months now can someone please give me specific details instead of silly slogans and vague talking points????

  11. I’m with Cheetah, Norsey, TomWa and the rest.
    Saduj – you’re right that whining and blaming doesn’t solve the problem. The problem with republics (not democracies since we are a republic) is that we have representative government for better or for worse. If politicians continue to depend on corporations and lobbyists for funding of their campaigns, then the people’s voice is less likely to be persuasive after they get into office. I mean – the little people voted Barack into power.
    But as much as I like our president, he’s no radical thinker or leader like FDR.

    If we had an educated populace, who understand a little more of history and current affairs, how the so called “capitalist free market” is really rigged against the les than well connected individual – we would stop the infighting and unite to use the power of the ballot box to kick the bums out of office till they get that we’re sick and tired of trying to survive a rigged game.

    But there has been a concerted effort at dumbing down the little guy thru poor education generally so that this fairy tale that anyone can make it in America is like kids who can’t get an education because they are born into poverty believing that they will be the next Air Jordan or Slum Dog millionaire. Statistically all of hollywood isn’t enough to prop up an impoverished class. The real problem is that the downtrodden masses still believe the big bosses need to be propped up so they will open up employment – instead of seeing that the 1% are the reason there are no jobs here. They’ve shipped it overseas and make their millions on securities.

    Until people who are not making it in this society – and there’s more of us than there are 1 percenters, until we unite and use the power of the ballot box to oust every one of them – democrat, republican – throw em out, we don’t stand a chance because you have talking heads spinning ratings fairy tales and no real news media covering what’s really going on with this country. IT’s not much different than being in a news blackout in IRan except we think we have access to news.

  12. Chris, well thought out, and clear, thanks. A few will dump on you, but that would be the anti-American 1%.

  13. Great letter, Chris. Yes, anybody that is willing to get an education, learn a skill or take a risk and open a business can make it in the USA as long as they work hard. If you work hard at anything the chances are you will be successful.

    Too bad the uninformed young people at the OWS protest haven’t learned that. Did they expect a job to walk up and tap them on the shoulder? Is sitting around feeling sorry for yourself going to get you a job? Did Steve Jobs drop out of college then occupy a park? No, he went back home and created a computer in his garage. X-ring tells us “all they want is a job”. You have to “get” a job – that means doing something more than wasting time sitting in a park whining about your lot in life. “Life doesn’t owe you a living” – many sources.

  14. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I’ve heard capitalism explained in terms of a circulatory system – for capitalism to work optimally, capital must flow freely throughout the system from buyer to seller to buyer to seller, etc.

    Ahh the old Circular Flow of Income model… or should I say models. Brings back memories of business and economics classes. Trouble is, norsey, based on the above quote, I can only guess that you didn’t get much further than the intro.

    See, your utopian description fits only the basic Two Sector Model. The Two Sector Model consists only of buyers and sellers, and is based on conditions that would be considered untenable in today’s global market. These conditions include no government, overseas, or financial sectors, no imports or exports, and would require buyers to spend all income (no savings) while sellers would be required to sell all output to buyers (no surpluses). Not even close to realistic.

    Modern adherents to circular flow economics use a much more complicated Five Sector Model which includes the five previously mentioned sectors, and (briefly) allows for savings, investments, taxes, and excess output.

    But I find your example of China to be most laughable. How’s that Circular Flow workin’ in China for ya’?

    Look, on it’s face, there are inherent inequalities that come from capitalism. But free market capitalism is the only system in which such inequalities can be overcome through individual effort, and without revolution.

    The trouble with every OWS hippie wannabe I have seen is that none realize that capitalism isn’t about what you deserve, but what you earn.

  15. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Cheetos- it is not only the ‘rich’ that are shareholders. How about pension funds? School endowments? 401k holders? The average guy who lives below his means and actually saves for his retirement?

    Way to buy into the rhetoric while ignoring reality.

    Norsey- Companies outsource not because they like China, but because manufacturing in America is expensive and difficult. From over regulation, labor costs, environmental regs (not a bad thing, but within reason), lawsuits, etc….

    Even regionally in the US those difficulties are forcing companies to move. Look at the CA to TX migration.

  16. Pacman33 says:

    tomwa007 could barely muster ~~
    “take time to get an education before you write such drivel”

    As always, when a leftist starts out with the “everybody should know as much as I do” bit …… the embarrassing gaffe is soon to follow.

    Sure enough we’re supposed to read a work of …….Fiction, titled : “The Jungle” by Upton Sinclair. Sinclair was the Micheal Moore of 1906. Like old Mike, Upton was also a Socialist who ran for Congress twice on the Socialist ticket. Upton, who was considered by many to also be a Communist, admitted his fictional, Moore-like documentary novel was intended to be an attack upon capitalist enterprise.

    This mock-umentary deviously slandered American meat processing industry. “The Jungle”, in addition to becoming the model for what is today’s standard liberal media, crashed the meat market. Domestic and foreign purchases of American meat fell by half which in turn spurred the government regulation of the industry. The evil and despicable leftist tactics, that are still embraced today, would come to create the FDA. More importantly, it was one the more notable events that marked the awakening of a beast of indescribable treachery and destruction : The Progressive Movement.

  17. Chris sorry you have it completely wrong OWS is about corporate control of our Govt. and the fact that the people have no voice only money talks. When the corporations control the Govt. and give them special breaks no one else gets and enable monopolistic markets, that is not capitalism but crony capitalism.

  18. NWflyfisher says:

    Question: Which of the following endorse the Occupy Wall Street movement with their support?

    A. The Communist Party USA
    B. The American Nazi Party
    C. Socialist Party USA
    D. Congressional Progressive Caucus
    E. Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives
    F. All of the above
    G. None of the above

    Answer: F – All of the above

    The Communist Party USA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrV7VhxoWk)
    The American Nazi Party (http://anp14.com/news/archives.php?report_date=2011-10-16)
    Socialist Party USA (http://socialistparty-usa.org/occupywallstreet.html)
    Congressional Progressive Caucus (http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=61&sectiontree=5,61&itemid=429)
    Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65229.html)

    BONUS QUESTION: How did the Occupymovement get started?
    Answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9jOxERtkwN4

    Van Jones on launching of the October Offensive:(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/01/van-jones-occupy-wall-street-rebuild-the-dream_n_990463.html)

  19. NWflyfisher says:

    Sergeant First Class Billy Honey’s message to the Occupiers: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/sfc_billy_honeys_message_for_occupiers.html

  20. I mean seriously, it’s been 2 months now can someone please give me specific details instead of silly slogans and vague talking points????

    Let’s see how well that super committee does with coming up with specific details with their 6 weeks of meeting…..after many months of trying to come to a solution as part of Congress.

    It took us 3 decades to create this mess of collapsing bubbles built ontop the debris of collapsing bubbles manufactured through deregulations and FED manipulations and you demand that OWS present a workable solution with details because it has been two months already.

  21. nwf – nice guilt by association.

    Don’t forget that “Jesus” with the Israel tattoo on his neck who shot at the White House might have been seen at the D.C. Occupy camp……

  22. “How about pension funds? School endowments? 401k holders? The average guy who lives below his means and actually saves for his retirement?”

    The average worker no longer has a defined benefit pension.

    The median worker has less then $25,000 is savings, and 27% have less then $1,000.

    So the average guy who lives below his means and actually saves for retirement is not average, but above average.

    Heck, the median salary is only $26,363.55; that’s not much to live on before or after social taxes. So the only way these individuals are going to be able to save is by bunking up with a bunch of other wage earners, and hope you don’t get sick.

  23. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The evil and despicable leftist tactics, that are still embraced today, would come to create the FDA. More importantly, it was one the more notable events that marked the awakening of a beast of indescribable treachery and destruction : The Progressive Movement.

    LOL, so in other words, “The Jungle” was not simply a hugely inspirational piece of fiction for ’ol tomwa007, but had the desired outcomes as well.

    But seriously, tom, equating dramtized labor conditions of the early 20th century with anything in the present day US economy would betray your implied superior education. The fact that you seem to be angry at all parties except the OWS suggests you too have no realistic solutions to put forth, just more bitter drivel, with a distinctly socialist twang.

    Another interesting fact about Sinclair and “The Jungle” is that he was originally commissioned, and the work published in serial form by the socialist newspaper Appeal to Reason. Only after the serialization had run did Sinclair decide to do the good old capitalist thing – get it published in book form… for which he was paid handsomely, I am sure. Meanwhile the poor immigrant kids in the pressroom…

  24. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Heck, the median salary is only $26,363.55…

    Not sure where you are getting your figure, but a more accurate illustration is individual per-capita income, which stood at $39,945 for the entire US in 2010, and $42,570 here in WA Statist.

    http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-pci.htm

  25. Vos, you need to go back to school and learn the difference between median and average.

  26. median: middle value mode: most often.

    If you are looking for an illustration of the average case, median is more accurate, especially there has been such a large disparity since the 1970s.

    Per capita income has several weaknesses as a measurement of prosperity:

    * As it is a mean value, it does not reflect income distribution. If the distribution of income within a country is skewed, a small wealthy class can increase per capita income far above that of the majority of the population. In this respect Median income is a more useful measure of prosperity than per capita income, because it is less influenced by the outliers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income

  27. Hey Bell:

    You stated that “the so called “capitalist free market” is really rigged against the less than well connected individual”.

    So how do individuals in this country become well connected anyway? How about through higher learning, hard work and networking?

    And you also stated that “until we unite and use the power of the ballot box to oust every one of them – democrat, republican – throw em out we don’t stand a chance”.

    Vote them out of office, fine. But just who would you suggest we replace them with?

  28. Forgot to include the link you asked for, here you go Vox.

    http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html

  29. The OWS movement and others who are concerned about the corporate takeover of our government have the future in mind, not the past. This letter extolls the America of the 1950’s, not the realities of today. Hard work does not get you anything but tired in our current system. More and more it is who your parents are and how much wealth they have instead of being able to make your own way. There are always exceptions, but opportunity has been lessened, not strengthened in the last three decades.

    If the trends hold true since we instigated supply-side, trickle-down economics that Republicans hold so dear, people graduating from high school and college today, at least 99% of them, can expect wages that are about the same or a little less than the generation before them yet the costs of basic needs will far outstrip their income.

    They can expect to own less property, have a much smaller share of our economy and pay a huge and growing amount of their income for health care to corporate entities that will make sure they receive fewer and fewer services for those payments.

    They will live in a society where children born into poor families and people with disabilities will not receive the assistance they need to allow them to even participate in education, employment and other activites of our society, but will instead be blamed and ostracized for their circumstances.

    College will be out of reach for much of society as state support is gretly reduced, loans for the middle class are branded as socialism and grants to the poor are branded as communism. So those who are born to the wealthy elite will be able to take even a bigger share of the wealth and have higher incomes.

    Churches and not-for-profits will be asked to increase their assistance and will come through with greatly expanded programs, much to their credit. Instead of the approximately 8%-10% of total government and private assistance that they provide today, they will more than double their assistance. Alas, government’s role will be so reduced that the majority of those who need assistance and would have been part of social programs today will not be able to participate in any assistance program.

    The clarion call is that our children’s future is jeopardized by a totally inept and dysfunctional Congress increasingly run by and for corporations at the expense of the middle class and the poor.

  30. Great letter. C’mon people. If you want a good paying job they ARE available. Why aren’t people choosing to put 10% of their pay in their 401k or IRA BEFORE they determine what kind of house they can afford or what kind of car they can afford? It is THEIR fault!!!!! People make stupid choices and feel they are “entitled” to more than their income can support. Remember those ridiculous teachers in Tacoma on strike that averaged 60k plus for a 9 to 10 month work year? And their TEA President said it would create a financial burden for these teachers if a few days pay was delayed for 2 weeks.

    This simply comes down to living within your means. If you desire to become wealthy and define success as having material wealth-the opportunities are abundant. Yes, they require massive sacrifices in family time(what many others consider success versus material), sacrifices in stuff(gotta wait to get that new car or that nice house until you can actually pay cash for it versus the “gotta have it now” crowd). Becoming wealthy in this country requires discipline, and a lot of people today simply are too lazy and too desiring of immediate satisfaction to ever achieve wealth. Just look at the average lottery winner. Those people couldn’t maintain wealth when it is given to them.

    Read the Richest Man in Babylon-its a 30 minute to an hour read(or if you are one of those OWS people, have somebody read it to you).

  31. LarryFine says:

    Does Obama still want to reduce the tax deductions for charitable contributions? I know he was pushing it a year or so ago.

  32. “C’mon people. If you want a good paying job they ARE available.”

    That’s clearly not happening for most Americans.

    Look at the ratio between the average wage and median wage. The ratio has been dropping over the last twenty years. That’s not good!!!

    I doubt that American’s are more lazy today then they where twenty years ago.

    http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html

  33. TMell, please point to the jobs so that readers will know where they are. The DOL estimates there are about 1 million unfilled jobs at any time. There are 13-14 million unemployed people on the official roles and an estimated 15 million people who are employed at jobs below their educational level or for part-time who apply for available promotions.

    If you can so blithely say that good paying jobs are available and you know where they are, you can make a great living assisting people to find them. Three hundred people took the dispatcher test two weeks ago for Pierce County’s three or four available jobs.

    I think you are blowing smoke, but prove me wrong. And please don’t mention Williston, SD, as all the righties like to do when they say jobs are available. The mayor there told people to stay away until the spring thaw. They are seeing people come who think they can live in tents or in their cars during the winter since no housing is available. They expect about three or four hundred people to apply for every job when the spring thaw hits, so good luck.

  34. NickDixon says:

    “All I’m hearing is whining about the “1%” and how they are evil and bad because they have something the 99% don’t.”

    Then there is this intelligent, well-thought statement:

    Chris, well thought out, and clear, thanks. A few will dump on you, but that would be the anti-American 1%.

    Just wait. Saduj will correct lanq within the next lifetime.

  35. NickDixon says:

    “C’mon people. If you want a good paying job they ARE available.”

    Guess who hasn’t applied for a job in the past two years or more.

  36. NickDixon says:

    “On his radio show, Rush Limbaugh revived the false claim that President Obama proposed to “eliminate all tax deductions for charitable contributions.” In fact, Obama proposed in his 2010 budget proposal to reduce the rate at which families earning over $250,000 could take itemized deductions from the current rates of 33 percent and 35 percent to 28 percent; he did not propose eliminating the deduction.”

    Moving on to the real conversation.

  37. NickDixon says:

    If people are donating to a charity only for a tax deduction, their heart is in the wrong place.

  38. NickDixon says:

    “Why aren’t people choosing to put 10% of their pay in their 401k or IRA BEFORE they determine what kind of house they can afford or what kind of car they can afford?”

    Any chance that might be that living in a solid home or a dependable car might be more important than a retirement account that you won’t use for 30 or 40 years, if Wall Street hasn’t screwed you out of it?

  39. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Well, I guess if the Social Security Administration considers “median“ to be a better gauge than “average“, it must be so. After all, they have done so well so far otherwise, right?

    Note: Median net compensation is estimated.

    But thanks for going back to school and learning the difference between “s“ and “x“.

    BTW, a 6% change in the ratio over the last 20 years? Of course you have no “hope“ that this trend might “change“ for the better once we have the personnel and policies in place to turn this stagnant economy around, right?

  40. LarryFine says:

    As expected kard misses the accuracy mark… again.

    One more time for kid on the short bus… “Does Obama still want to reduce the tax deductions for charitable contributions?”

    Thanks for confirming my question.

  41. LarryFine says:

    “If people are donating to a charity only for a tax deduction, their heart is in the wrong place”
    LMAO… no doubt the people receiving such charity would refuse to take it under such circumstatnces.

  42. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Kardnic says:

    If people are donating to a charity only for a tax deduction, their heart is in the wrong place.

    Yup’, another written example of a big-hearted, kind and compassionate lib.

    Tell that to the charities that would stand to lose more than 7 Billion dollars per year under 0bama’s plan. And where would all of that money go? Why to the federal government, of course, where history has shown a much better track record for disbursing such funds, LMAO.

  43. NickDixon says:

    Orly Taitz is caught in another attempt to mislead readers on the impact of a reduction.

    Since Factcheck notes that about 1 in 50 households in America earn $250K or more.

    And on the average, 70% of THOSE actually give to charity.

    The number keeps getting smaller and smaller

    Then, of course, there is this:

    http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/02/19/Poor-Give-More-to-Charity/

    How red is the herring now?

  44. NickDixon says:

    “Tell that to the charities that would stand to lose more than 7 Billion dollars per year under 0bama’s plan.”

    Obama doesn’t decide on charitable giving, other than his own.

    If people are giving only because of a reward – tax deduction, their heart is in the wrong place.

    Of course, you’ll note that the less fortunate give more on a percentage than the wealthy, so I’m probably being redundant on the “heart” statement

  45. NickDixon says:

    If a Republican was suggesting the limit of tax deductions, that would be called –

    “a wise business decision designed to eliminate the national debt and curtail those fake charities that bum money from people”

  46. NickDixon says:

    I find it humerous that charitable giving is proportionately responsive to tax deductions. When I give, I’ve never pulled out a calculator to determine what amount would be best for me come April.

  47. Well, I guess if the Social Security Administration considers “median“ to be a better gauge than “average“, it must be so. After all, they have done so well so far otherwise, right?

    I’m guessing you really didn’t pay much attention to your Statistics professor……

  48. NickDixon says:

    “In a document outlining his 2010 budget plans, President Obama proposed limiting the value of the tax break for itemized deductions, including donations to charity, to 28 percent for families making more than $250,000. In other words, taxpayers would save 28 cents on their federal income taxes for each dollar donated.”

    Someone do the math and show us how 28 cents on the dollar given can result in $7 billion less given.

    The original press (2009) said “several billion” and that morphed into “$7 billion”.

    Something tells me if you dig deep enough, you’ll find a right wing cause that could care less about charities that is manipulating the issue to attempt to make Obama look bad.

  49. “BTW, a 6% change in the ratio over the last 20 years? Of course you have no “hope“ that this trend might “change“ for the better once we have the personnel and policies in place to turn this stagnant economy around, right?”

    It’s been going on for twenty years!!

    My guess is that it will get worse. We will still have globalization and technology.

  50. NWF – A Sergeant First Class is nowhere near the 1%.

    PHoller – ‘How do individuals become connected?’ – May do it the old fashion way – they inherited it.

  51. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I’m guessing you really didn’t pay much attention to your Statistics professor……

    As I recall, basic statistics was part of the general education courses I took (math), but beyond that, not part of the core requirement for a BS in Building Technology and Administration – now called Construction Management. I went a bit further with business classes though, just because I thought they might be useful. So, no, I make no claim to statistical genius… do you?

  52. NickDixon says:

    a BS?

  53. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Kardnic, I am referring to the cost to charities of 0bama’s Sept. 8, 2011 laughingly-named “Jobs Bill”. You seem to be stuck in 2009/ 2010. C’mon man, get with it.

    While there is sizable disagreement over the exact cost to charities (I have seen a range of 2 – 7 Billion, per year – 7 bil being the first figure I saw), there is strong evidence that this latest “stimu-less” payback… er, bill, will get only slightly further than his laughable 2012 budget. (Because we are now in election year, he got his 51 votes in the Senate for the… jobs bill, as compared to zippo for his budget.)

    Here is a link to a POV from the Chronicle of Philanthropy:

    http://philanthropy.com/blogs/government-and-politics/pricetag-for-charity-tax-break-loss-at-least-2-9-billion/29350

  54. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    a BS?

    Beats a BTDT.

  55. the3rdpigshouse says:

    The lazy dependent class is knowingly or unknowingly following the playbook of the head marxist & anarchist “OH-Bummer” in deriding his own country in hopes that the chaos in the streets will hasten the demise of the U.S. capitalist system!! Wake up citizens and get this maggot out of office ASAP!!!

  56. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    My guess is that it will get worse. We will still have globalization and technology.

    Say hello to Paul Krugman for me.

  57. NickDixon says:

    how about a HBTHDT?

    I’m guessing that’s a better description of these online degrees I see.

  58. NickDixon says:

    Vox – and the issue first came up in 2009. Do some research.

  59. NickDixon says:

    President Obama’s plan to limit the value of charitable deductions for wealthy people would cost nonprofits at least $2.9-billion and perhaps as much as $5.6-billion, according to a study to be unveiled Friday.

    Now THERE is accuracy for ya!. That is the kind of accounting that made the Iraq War famous.

    Numbersfromsouthernanatomy.com

  60. Why don’t we honor and support our own nation instead of
    ‘redistributing’ the wealth of our own nation overseas?
    How many ‘free market’ capitalists would listen to that?

  61. Mr Talbert in his letter quotes the standard far-right propaganda, “What they want” (OWS) “is no less than state enforced wealth redistribution”.

    The only state enforced wealth redistribution that has been going on since Reagan has been the middle class sending its share through state enforced means to the very top and watching the policies of reaganomics deprive them of hope of even staying even in the economy reaganomics created.

    The CBO stated in its 2011 study of wealth rdistribution in America that: “the share of total after-tax income received by the 1 percent of the population in households with the highest income more than doubled between 1979 and 2007, whereas the share received by low- and middle-income households declined.”

    The study also points to many other statistics, especially about accumulated wealth, not just income, that shows the wealth redistribution in America toward the upper 10% has been as a result of national policies and political decisions.

    One of its most telling findings is that the “work experience of parents, inheritance, gender, and race had the strongest influences on personal income of current wage earners”.

    So much for hard work being the key to success.

  62. hansgruber says:

    Good letter!

  63. NickDixon says:

    Media Matters documented Limbaugh’s show, date, and dialog. Kinda tough to call them wrong when they prove they are right.

  64. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Didn’t say they were wrong – just confirming your… sources for you. Nevertheless, I find it hysterically ironic that you would use SorosMatters as a credible source to discredit a segment from Limbaugh.

    Oh well, anything to hijack a thread, eh Larry?

    Moving on (as in “.com“? LMAO – you’re so clever, aren’t you) to the real conversation.

  65. LarryFine says:

    Vox, his posts routinely lack a source… and the hijacking, it’s a routine.

  66. NickDixon says:

    Could it be because Media Matters has far less credibility than even Limbaugh?

    Vox….you didn’t question the credibility of Media Matters?

    Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich could use you on their staff. Regardless of what they said a week ago, they didn’t say it. You’d be perfect.

    Just following your hijacking -

  67. NickDixon says:

    What Media Matters does:

    Takes verifiable information from Right Wing Media (in film and script when possible) and reports it and corrects it.

    How can you not be credible when you are publishing everything your source published?

    Don’t let a few facts get in the way.

  68. ErnestTBass says:

    I have always believed in the 1st Amendment. Yes I believe that people should be allowed to assemble and speak their piece. That is our right. However I believe that the sick OWS crowd is completely out of order. Raping women, attacking the police, frightening little children who are on their way to school, destroying government and personal property is completely out of line and wrong. Defecating in the streets just tells me that, its just another leftist liberal being born.

  69. vox – My statistics prof talked in such a thick accent that he wrote his entire lecture on the board as he talked with his back turned to us…hardly entertaining.

    And I was much more interested in math as theory rather than applied math BUT I did remember a few things like the difference between median and mean.

  70. NickDixon says:

    Since you want to wade in, here is a great example of what Media Matters does:

    http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201111170025?frontpage

    They publish Sarah Palin making up a relationship between Obama and OWS. We all know that Sarah is in the know about a host of things.

  71. NickDixon says:

    ETBass – right out of the Right Wing playbook. You copied it well.

  72. NickDixon says:

    Ernest T – lol, you got me! I knew that name was familiar from somewhere. Good one!

    “Ernest T. was an ignorant and obstreperous mountain man with a penchant for troublemaking, particularly vandalous rock throwing, which wreaked havoc on the otherwise sedentary town of Mayberry. He lived in the mountains neighboring Mayberry, and his appearance in town almost invariably meant trouble for Sheriff Taylor and Deputy Barney Fife.”

  73. I am so glad that I got a good liberal arts education from a good conservative Christian college.

  74. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Wade in??? The water was not nearly as high before your attempted hijacking, Kardnic.

    And since you think it so cool to use (not cite) the SorrosMatters spin machine, then you should have no objection to my using Andrew Breitbart’s Big Journalism – speaking to SorrosMatters

    http://bigjournalism.com/ddaleiden/2011/07/02/media-matters-spin-machine-breaks/

    Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich could use you on their staff. Regardless of what they said a week ago, they didn’t say it. You’d be perfect.
    Just following your hijacking -

    My hijacking, LMAO! This after a complete non-sequitur of a paragraph. You must really make yourself laugh.

  75. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    bB… from what exactly did you draw your conclusion that I don’t know the dif between median and mean? I merely stated, factually, what the average per capita income is. If the Social Security Admin and… wikipedia feel that estimated net median is a more accurate measurement, then so be it.

  76. ErnestTBass says:

    @Nick Dixon: Yeah man you got me pegged. Dont p— me off because it you do Ill throw a rock thru your winder. Just remember the ole hillbilly saying: “Man cannot live on bread alone. He must have peanut butter.” God bless y’all and all y’all.

  77. LarryFine says:

    Since when do dance and drama majors have “statistics prof” ???

  78. LF – started as an Architecture major, then attempted a triple-major in Math, Psychology and Physical Education (Dance). Dropped the Math major when it became clear that the Calculus track for Architects and Engineers left me at a distinct disadvantage from the guys who had been doing more theoretical preparation. The statistics course was required for Psychology major.

    btw – I had to take several science courses for the P.E. major.

  79. from what exactly did you draw your conclusion that I don’t know the dif between median and mean?

    from your suggestion that “a more accurate illustration is individual per-capita income” followed by your attempt to denigrate more accurate methodology because the IRS uses it.

  80. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    So… help me out here, bB. As you know… I’m a bit thick; the “difference between mean and median” is… accuracy?

    Okey-dokey.

    IRS??? I said IRS? Now you’re taking thread-drift to a new level.

    And even with your… edge in statistics, you are apparently oblivious to the meaning of “so be it”.

  81. NickDixon says:

    Ernest – you are a breath of fresh air in a room full of hot air. Do these people ever tire of moaning about “thread drift”, “hijacking” et al?

  82. “the head marxist & anarchist “OH-Bummer””

    ROFL – not only that but he’s also and atheist & Muslim & Christian.

  83. TMell, I am still waiting for some of those good paying jobs that you say are just waiting for people to apply for. I am waiting for any information that shows we should blame the unemployed and underemployed for their own plight like you do.

    Do you really think that every one but you (and the wealthy) are lazy and undisciplined?

    As almost any real study shows, the wealthy in America with only a few exceptions, got that way primarily through luck or extreme and highly focused knowledge and skills, because of how rich and what kinds of jobs their parents had, and influenced a lot by race and gender issues.

    The primer you mentioned, the Richest Man in Babylon is a good start if you want financial security and keep you in the middle class if you are already there, but following its advice will not make you wealthy.

  84. me out here, bB. As you know… I’m a bit thick; the “difference between mean and median” is… accuracy?

    Nope, mean and median methodologies are equally accurate at measuring what they are designed to measure. In this case median would be the most appropriate for ascertaining what is the income level for the majority of Americans.

    But then, I followed up my Statistics course with a Research Methodology course so that information may have been covered in the upper division class.

  85. bB, you (as I) have been out of school for a while. Mean, median and mode and how they are calculated and how they are used are now 4th grade elementary math topics.

    See this home school curriculum site: http://www.time4learning.com/4th-grade-math.shtml

    For a fairly good explanation of the three, see:

    http://www.algebralab.org/lessons/lesson.aspx?file=algebra_statmeanmedianmode.xml

  86. tuddo – I remember (vaguely) that the differenn ways to figure out mode, median and mean was covered early in my education but don’t remember being taught in an effective way why these different ways of finding “average” were more or less useful for different applications until much later. It wouldn’t surprise me that they have gotten better at this.

  87. concernedtacoma7 says:

    It is not the poor themselves, as individuals that are blamed. It is society that can be blamed. The destruction of the family. The entitlement society. The terrible waste of money our eduction system has become.

    That said, there is no excuse for the un or underemployed not doing everything they can to provide for them and their families. It means hustling, learning a new skill, getting out there. Expecting the govt to step out of their Constitutionally directed duties and come riding to rescue is ignorant.

    Oh, and you have piercing anywhere visible besides your ears, blue hair, or smell, do not blame society for your employment woes. If you are not willing to move out of state for employment, especially during a recession, you have no one to blame.

    And tuddo- their is more to luck than throwing dice. Those that have gotten lucky, in most cases, took individual actions to set conditions in their favor.

  88. LarryFine says:

    You’re really asking alot concernedtacoma7. It’s a bit much to expect people to try to improve their own living conditions… isn’t that what government is for ?

    >sarcasm<

  89. concerrnedtacoma7, you have already lost the constitutional argument that it does not allow Congress to involve itself in assisting the unemployed. Alexander Hamilton maintained that the clause granted Congress the power to spend without limitation for the general welfare of the nation.

    In United States v. Butler, 56 S. Ct. 312, 297 U.S. 1, 80 L. Ed. 477 (1936), the U.S. Supreme Court adopted Hamilton’s interpretation of the General Welfare Clause, which gave Congress broad powers to spend federal money if the actions promote society’s goals.

    Helping people help themselves is a big role of government. Capital investment is not the end-all be-all of a capitalistic economy or democracy. If we allow one of the pillars of our economy – our workforce, to die away, become uneducated, lose necessary skills, be sick without treatment, etc., our nation’s general welfare will decline, for sure.

    Yes, people have to take advantage of such government activities as job retraining, assistance with job placement, education, etc. However, if we continue reducing and curtailing government’s role in this important aspect of our economy, and corporate employers continue refusing to pay the costs of a well-educated and well-trained workforce, we are in trouble, indeed.

  90. The elephant in the room, of course, is the number of 1 percenters who got wealthy(er) by taking advantage of taxpayer supported corporate welfare.

  91. TMell – To paraphrase Miyamoto Musashi – one cannot learn just by reading a book, you must study and meditate to perceive the truth of what is written, and correctly practice each techniques 10,000 times until they become a natural as breathing.

  92. NickDixon says:

    Is it just me, or does anyone else notice that Right Wingers want the US to fund Israel, but don’t want our own citizens to get financial help?

  93. Good letter. Also, as we now learn that some of the “leaders” of the leaderless occupy movement were staying in swanky mid-town hotels, we see the same old thing we always see when people demand socialism or marxism, the power hungry running things while the suckers gain nothing. Jon Stewart did a hilarious piece on OWS, where it was noted that the NYC park where they were “camping” had self segregated into the upper class and the lower class. Note that there was no middle class. There never is under the type of system they push.

  94. Tuddo-no the Richest Man In Babylon is not about becoming wealthy at all. It is about living within your means, not borrowing to an excess, not believing you are entitled to what others have, setting priorities of saving and charity before you have your spending money. If people would choose to live within their means, they would be much better off. Change your living standards AFTER you change your means. There is nothing wrong with roommates, and I grew up 10 children in a 4 bedroom house with one bathroom. My parents didn’t feel that the government owed them anything. My children share rooms today.

    Tuddo-Boeing is hiring, Verizon is hiring, Costco is hiring, and for the lesser skilled there are manual jobs at FedEx, UPS, Sportco, etc. etc. But you have to be willing to hustle. LOL, you know how many construction guys I know that have miraculously found employment now that they have sat on their arses (or worked under the table) for their 99 weeks. Yeah, maybe they have to carpool to Seattle to find the work, but man up!!!

  95. And Tuddo-Luck is most often defined as preparation meeting opportunity. Yeah, tatted up and pierced up smelly vegans aren’t going to get as “lucky” as the kid that is respectful, hard-working, attentive, educated and polite.

  96. LarryFine says:

    The “elephant in the room” is how many people are getting poorer and being forclosed and loosing their jobs after 3 years under democrat control… kooky

  97. NickDixon says:

    The elephant in the room is the control that has not been Democrat since 2010.

    Some people are not in tune with the reality of the Republican House of Representatives.

  98. NickDixon says:

    “Verizon is hiring”

    NEW YORK (AP) — Verizon Communications Inc. on Tuesday posted an unusual loss for the fourth quarter, as a charge for layoffs in its shrinking landline business overshadowed the growing, and profitable, wireless business. The communications giant said it expects to lay off as many as 10,000 more workers this year.

    It appears delcotimes.com didn’t get the memo

  99. NickDixon says:

    Boeing website – “careers”

    ran search “assembly”

    Results – No jobs matching the specified criteria were found.
    Please try again.

  100. NickDixon says:

    “Yeah, tatted up and pierced up smelly vegans”

    Funny, but most of the people that I see with excessive tattoos seem to be more of the redneck persuation. Love partners, tribal designs to look “tough”, etc

    The “vegans” and likewise that I know, are opposed to injection of ink into their bodies. They don’t find it healthy. The other interesting part is that they usually don’t have body odors, frequently connected to the consuming of meat products

  101. NickDixon says:

    Which right wing website is contending that OWS people are staying in swanky hotels?

    HotAir, who else? “Now we know”

  102. Which right wing website is contending that OWS people are staying in swanky hotels?

    HotAir, who else? “Now we know”
    NickDixon

    No. Once again you only report as you see it. Now we know…

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/wall_street_cra_pad_s31YWPjPTt0TYuxLGnu7IK

  103. The myth that hard work will allow you to become wealthy is just that, a myth. It is mainly perpetuated by those on the right who make attacks on people who are working hard to get ahead but see that the way is blocked because the policies of the United States government are controlled by and for corporations. Those policies disregard and even punish those in the middle class who struggle to get ahead, some working two or three jobs to stay even.

    Those policies were put in place by the almost cult-like fervor of Reganomics. Every statistic in the world shows the decline of the middle class since we put those policies into place. Jobs, GDP, and every measure of growth of our economy shows stagnation and decline because of reaganomics even while we have the lowest taxes in the last century as a percentage of GDP and the lowest taxes on individual income in six decades, and the highest corporate profits and lowest corporate taxes since the 1950’s.

    Those who worship at the throne of reaganomics are just like the hippies who took acid seeking enlightenment, saw their world coming crashing down on them when reality set in and said, “I think I’ll take another hit, that is some good stuff”!

    I say enough of this terrible experiment that is causing our demise.

  104. LarryFine says:

    LOL djen… get ready to be called a name.

  105. LarryFine says:

    … or labeled.

  106. I want the OWS’ers to continue to spread their desease around as they have been doing for the past two months. There’s no better example of liberalism than what we see taking place on the streets. Are these really the people who we want to empower? Their motive is simply the redistribution of wealth. They want their college loans forgiven, like the college girl I know who takes her college loan and goes on vacation and visits friends in other states, thinking that she’ll never have to pay it back. They want to destroy the very system that made it possible for them to have the I-phones, laptops, the internet (Iknow, it was really Al Gore who invented it). They will show up at their parents doorstep for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner and whine about how tough it is to be an anarchist and wait for warmer weather to resume their street protests. But that’s fine, I just hope they continue until next election day.

  107. Tuddo, don’t forget the role of the unions in forcing jobs out of the country. Where is it written that everyone should be rich? You can have a very satisfactory life just being “comfortable”. You can become “comfortable” working as a plumber, mechanic, roofer, truck driver, heavy equipment operator or train engineer, none of which requires a college education. But wait… Most of these jobs have been destroyed by overly greedy union bosses haven’t they?

  108. NickDixon says:

    “Tuddo, don’t forget the role of the unions in forcing jobs out of the country.”

    False assertion. If the Republicans had not created advantageous tax positions for business to outsource, it would not have happened. If there is any greed it is by management of corporations that have improved their earnings over 200% in the past couple decades, while outsourcing labor and blaming American workers.

  109. NickDixon says:

    “The New York Post is the 13th-oldest newspaper published in the United States. Since 1993, it has been owned by media mogul Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation”

    Hot Air – NY Post – take your pick. Right wing propaganda sheets.

    Neither credited the origin of the story, but that would take journalistic standards, severely lacking in both organizations.

    My guess – the Post originated the story and Hot Air picked it up.

    Last minute booking with limited occupancy available? I wonder if the Post did a sidebar on the cost of hotels in Midtown to demonstrate the value of $700 per night? Probably not. Not salacious enough for the low level reader. My stepson just paid $300 a night in DC with advance scheduling. Much adu about nothing – as usual.

    Someone quote the National Enquirer next. There’s some real juice on Demi and Ashton!

  110. NickDixon says:

    The same people that bash the New York Times, who have won countless awards for journalistic excellence, will believe the Post who:

    “Murdoch imported the sensationalist “tabloid journalism” style of many of his Australian and British newspapers, such as The Sun (the highest selling daily newspaper in the UK). This style was typified by Post’s famous headlines such as “Headless body in topless bar” (shown on the right). In its 35th-anniversary edition, New York Magazine listed this as one of the greatest headlines ever. It also has five other Post headlines in its “Greatest Tabloid Headlines” list.”

    Sorry, my bad. Citing Hot Air gave too much credibility to the story.

  111. frosty, the lack of union jobs because of tactics by corporations getting their way in states run by their surrogates is what is helping to cause the demise of the middle class. Union bosses have not destroyed these jobs, it is the greed of the corporate CEO’s who view their bonuses and salaries at the highest levels in history even as the rest of their workforce suffers.

    The US workforce is the most productive and efficient in its history and costs for labor as a percentage of profit is at its lowest ever. It is not labor that is causing jobs to be lost.

  112. @LarryFine, He’s powerless and has no self control. In other words, he can’t help himself.

    Typical Leftist, no boundaries.

  113. frosty, every occupation you named is still laying people off and numbers and wages are in decline at this time, except in some very specific localized situations. Plumber, mechanic, roofer, truck driver, heavy equipment operator or train engineer are all in the ‘declining”, “rapidly declining” or “most rapidly declining” list according to the DOL.

    Here are some of the areas with growth in job availability and wage increases forecast for the next five years:

    -Management, scientific, and technical consulting services;
    -Specialized design services;
    -Data processing, hosting, related services, and other information services;
    -Medical professions;
    -Offices of health practitioners;
    -Lessors of nonfinancial intangible assets (except copyrighted works);
    -Independent artists, writers, and performers;
    -Scientific research and development services;
    -Software publishers

    Its a new US economy out there.

  114. Forsty – why not report the girl – Oh you don’t know her name or the school she doesn’t attend.

    Why am I not surprised?

    Unions forcing jobs overseas! With less than 1 in 8 workers belonging to unions (including public workers), I thank you need to get a new set of rants.

  115. Thanks to OWS, the electorate has become more aware of corporate control of the political process, and of U.S. tax codes skewed to benefit corporations and the wealthy, and of the increasing income disparity between the wealthy and the middle-class, and of the lack of employment opportunities in this country. OWS has reminded us of the dishonesty and greed of Wall Street bankers who, once they purchased deregulation through the political process, were able to run rampnat, resulting in a near world financial collapse.

    With the conservative Supreme Courts blessing, Corportations can spend their millions to buy the next election, and the conservative spin-machine can continue their denegration of the protestors, but their money will be no match for the ignition of voter awareness which OWS has helped to spark.

    Here are some words conservatives of the 60’s used to describe the Viet Nam war protestors? “No goals”, “no plan”, “unorganized”, “dirty”, “rude”, “troublemakers”, “socialist”, “unnecessary”, “bums”, “scumbags”, “un-American”. I remember those words being used against the civil-rights marchers also.

    So history goes on to repeat itself, with conservatives critics voicing the same objections and making the same miscalculations.

    I agree with Frosty when, after his abusive diatribe of the OWS protestors, he says “But that’s fine, I just hope they (OWS) continue until next election day.”

  116. NWF,
    The Answer is: None of the Above.

    The Question is: Which of these organizations were asked to join OWS?

  117. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Dick- dems have the senate and the white house. Repubs have the house, that’s it.

    Using your logic repubs are responsible for nothing since 2006.

    Your (and BHOs) ecxuse that everything is the fault of congress makes you a raging hypocrite.

  118. Funny how those who are posting stories about individual cases of bad behavior at OWS protests never post anything about the cops’ behavior – ferinstance at UC Davis.

  119. nd: “Hot Air – NY Post – take your pick. Right wing propaganda sheets.”

    So you deny that those “occupiers” stayed there? Wonder why The Post would set themselves up for such an obvious lawsuit, then, by naming names.

  120. The title of the letter is what got my click. What I read was a sad example of a hard-working American, proud with a nose-to-the-grindstone mentality, whom with dedication and love has provided for his family; a man whose pride will not allow that he is being had.

  121. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Kardnic, conjure a vision of me rolling on the floor, milk streaming from my nostrils, uncontrolled hysterical laughter causing a cascade of tears as I marvel at what must either be your incredible gall or unmitigated ignorance.

    You do realize you are dissing Hot Air, The New York Post, and Rupert Murdoch, and assailing the validity of sourcing and linking them, while - in the very same thread - quoting and defending George Sorros and his personal little pet- Media Matters.

    The bus to Irony has left – next stop Hypocrisy 9and a new handle).

  122. LarryFine says:

    LMAO Vox… so true.

  123. Concerned7 – Another fine set of false rants.

    Once again you forget that to control the Senate one needs 60 reliable votes (which has not occurred since 1977), and that since 2009 Senate Republicans have invoked more filibusters than had occurred prior to 2009.

    Vox & Larry – the truth sure has a funny affect on you two.

  124. jelee: “What I read was a sad example of a hard-working American, proud with a nose-to-the-grindstone mentality, whom with dedication and love has provided for his family ..”

    Yes, it’s much more helpful to sit in a park with a bunch of unbathed hippie wannabees and complain, that will surely put food on your family’s table.

    What’s really sad is that hard work is somehow seen as bending over for the man. Trouble is, there’s always going to be “the man”; there will forever be those who crave power. Some people crave power by dominating an industry, others crave power by entering government and dominating people. The first type gain power by providing goods and services, and get rich doing so. The second type gain power by suckering people into thinking that they’ll take stuff from other people and give it to them if they’re in power. Note that this takes no real skill outside of salesman.

  125. I just want to say one thing to Chris about this quote from the letter…

    “Before we dump on capitalism and wealth, take the ear-buds out and look at your i-phone: it is a prime example of profit-driven ingenuity and could not be produced under any other system than capitalism.”

    Those iPhones are made in China! The jobs created to make the iPhones are jobs for Chinese workers, not Americans.

    Yes, it is a “prime example” of how American workers are being cast aside by the greed of American corporations.

  126. fiftytwopickup says:

    lawsuit for saying someone stayed at a hotel?

  127. what is sad is when people think that their hard work has more merit than someone elses. it is sad then people assume that everyone who hasnt accomplished what they have, must be be less worthy, less hard working, less of an American. We should be proud of our hard work, but that pride shouldnt include putting on blinders to the realities of our nation and economy. “Stay in your lane and don’t complain” is far from a noble cause.

  128. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Those iPhones are made in China! The jobs created to make the iPhones are jobs for Chinese workers, not Americans.

    Uhhm… once again admitting my thickness, but isn’t that precisely the letter-writer’s point?

    Hey, I just found a word that fits; hypocrisy</B. – look it up!

  129. LarryFine says:

    What are you proposing jellee ? Everyone get paid the same regardless of how they earn income ?

  130. Vox, no, it doesn’t prove the letter’s point at all. The letter is about exhorting people to stop complaining, just start working hard and getting rich by working hard. The letter writer obviously thinks that the situation in America is that anyone can go out and get a good paying job and make it to the top without any assistance from our society or from its controllers – the corporations – if they just work hard.

    That is a great myth and makes a wonderful fairy tale to tell the kids at night to keep their hopes up. It doesn’t have anything to do with the reality of today’s job market, the reality of the corporate takeover of our government or the diminishing chances of people even making it to the middle class, much less the ranks of the wealthy because of the changes in the rules of the game.

    It certainly is not true for those just entering the college and job markets who see the things that helped the people who did get ahead in the last generation being taken away so that the rich CEOs can get richer and so that corporations can pay less taxes. Things like affordable tuition at state colleges and universities, guaranteed student loans, education grants, vocational training assistance, vocational rehabilitation for people with disabilities, etc. etc.

    The policies of the far right drain all hope from the struggling middle class and poor and we are seeing that frustration boil up in anger and a cry for our leaders to listen.

  131. lf: “What are you proposing jellee ? Everyone get paid the same regardless of how they earn income ?”

    Wouldn’t be much incentive for hard work.

    This experiment was already tried in The Soviet Union. Workers on large state farms in the Ukraine were allowed plots to work for themselves, which were _far_ more productive per acre than the state farm they worked on.

  132. tuddo, you got it right! Excellent post of your’s to further explain the foolishness of the original letter writer’s (Chris Talbert’s) nonsense claims. Thank you for your good work!!!

    Vox_clamantis_in_des, unfortunately you should really seriously consider taking a course in “comprehensive reading skills.” You have totally missed the point of most of the posts you have commented on, and I fear the original letter writer’s intentions to start with.

    BTW, your nom de plume “Vox clamantis in deserto” doesn’t fit you at all! As it is the motto of Dartmouth College and means, when translated, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness.” Your’s is not the voice of “one” crying in the wilderness. Your’s is the voice of the programmed masses who continue to support the rich masters to justify their greed and scheming. But seriously, take a comprehensive reading course or two, okay?

  133. muckibr, thanks. My father sounded a lot like this letter writer and Vox and others. He embraced the tea party ideals long before there was a tea party and ranted against any government assistance to anybody for any reason.

    The irony was that everything he had and did was a direct result of his experience in two of the most socialistic activities our country engaged in – the CCC’s and the US Navy. In both we have wage flattening, communal living, meals, shelter, training, and every necessity provided by the government.

    Sure he worked hard – most people do. I don’t buy the rant that current students or job seekers are lazy. I work almost every day with people with disabilities who work harder every single day of their life than most of these apologists for Grover Norquist and the corporations will in their lifetime.

  134. stradivari says:

    One problem with the bastardized American version of capitalism is that the 1% are greedy hoarders.

  135. Vox_, I’m seriously concerned about you and your intellectual abilities to understand and comprehend what you read. That is why I sincerely suggest you take a comprehensive reading course, so that you may at some point in the future really begin to “understand” what you are reading, rather than merely parroting back what Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and Dorry Monson tell you to say.

    At present, you obviously are as you have described yourself at least twice… “thick.” And, I think we all know what that means. As I am sure we all know what your BS really stands for in terms of your alleged education.

    I only mention these things because you are so vociferous in your many many postings on this blog. Others might assume you actually know what you are writing about. Hopefully this will disabuse them of that notion. You really don’t, do you? Come on. You can admit it. Try being honest, rather than just belligerent for a change. Thanks!

  136. tuddo, I applaud you for your work and your words. Your contribution to this site and to society are a benefit to us all. Thank you!

    Like your dad, I served in the military (US Army) and like you I recognized the inherent socialist aspects of that organization. Unlike your dad I never could understand the Tea Party “ideals” (if you want to call them that).

    Even if they are not saying it clearly enough, I believe all that the OWSers are saying is that they would like America to reinstitute an even playing field where people really do have an even chance to make it big. Right now, in this America, there is very little opportunity for ordinary people to succeed no matter how hard they work. The OWSers see that. I see that. You see that, How can Vox and others be so blind?

    The OWSers are not lazy or looking for free handouts, or socialization. They are on the front lines of a class war initiated by the ultra rich, and more power to them!!!

  137. tuddo: “.. the reality of the corporate takeover of our government ..”

    You can’t take over what’s not for sale. Try protesting the pushers over at the capitol.

  138. lang, on what planet have you been for the last 30 years?

    Almost every single politician in our government has been for sale. The Republicans especially going for the higher prices that corporate greed afford to pay. How else do you explain the record low approval ratings for Congress these days? The ONLY people who like Congress are the 1%ers who have bought and paid for them!

    Wake up lang, and face reality!!!

  139. aislander says:

    One need only look at the economic success of Asian-Americans (native born and immigrants) to see the effects of culture and focused hard work on outcomes…

    A toxic culture results in poisoned outcomes…

  140. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    The letter writer obviously thinks that the situation in America is that anyone can go out and get a good paying job and make it to the top without any assistance from our society or from its controllers – the corporations – if they just work hard.

    That is a great myth and makes a wonderful fairy tale to tell the kids at night to keep their hopes up.

    Great, on top of everything else I stand accused of in this thread, I have also been living a lie.

    Another dose of positive outlook delivered by the modern left.

    Sorry, but I cannot ignore the irony in the vision of these OWS’rs getting their marching orders from smart phones and laptops, while they protest the very system – if not the specific corporations – that made these wonderfully indispensable (for them, apparently) gadgets possible.

    Hey, at least I admit I’m thick, but I do at least know the meaning of hypocrisy. You?

  141. muck: “Almost every single politician in our government has been for sale.”

    Then go change things. I don’t mean hanging out in the park with a bong and an old copy of The Freak Brothers, go support and campaign for someone who shares your values. The tea party people have been doing this, and have been wildly successful so far. The problem is, this is not about corporate cronyism, it’s about fundamentally changing the way the government works. If the occupy protesters were so opposed to Wall Street influence on government, the first place they’d march on would be The White House, as Obama has been the largest recipient of Wall Street “donations”, by far. But then, that wouldn’t fit the narrative, would it? The dishonesty is why the leftists can’t sell this, plain and simple.

  142. aislander, myths abound among the far right. I have chosen this Fox site, since you probably wouldn’t accept a more scientific study that shows the same thing:

    “Many Americans think of Asians here as a model community with money. Some are but many Asian Americans are truly the working poor”.

    This study found the poverty rate among Asian Americans was higher than African Americans.

    The Asian American Federation also did a similar study . The federation found that many of the Asian poor worked — and on average worked longer hours.”

    (Again the myth that hard work gets you ahead in our society).

    “The poorest of the poor, are Asian-American senior citizens who live alone, the federation found”.

    http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/090225_Asian_Americans_and_Poverty

  143. lang, I am changing things. I have just educated YOU to finally realize that our government has been for sale for some time. Apparently you did not know that before. Now you do, thanks to me.

  144. aislander, I suggest you volunteer at the Korean Womens Association to see the foolishness of your statement.

    The toxic culture that is creating our demise is the myth that we need government to pay billions to assist corporations and the wealthiest, but provide no assistance to individuals, especially the poor and middle class.

  145. aislander says:

    Median household income of Asian-Americans, native born and immigrants, is 30% higher than for white Americans and more than that for the general population.

    Culture matters…

  146. aislander, a few exceptions skew median incomes, especially when the numbers are so small, less than 5% of our population. Almost all studies show the poverty rate higher for Asian-Americans than most other “cultures”. How does that fit into your little myth-making?

    Your statistics on income (I have seen those, too), include all of the Chinese-owned corporations who bring in their CEOs and top executives to the USA. Their pay is in the high millions. It also includes Hawaii, where the largest percentage of Asians reside. Hawaiian’s average incomes are fairly high and the poverty rate there is low.

    When you take a number of fairly small amounts and add in hugely anomylous amounts, then averages and other statistics can appear very misleading.

  147. fiftytwopickup says:

    Archie Bunker lives

  148. vox, you wrote “Hey, at least I admit I’m thick, but I do at least know the meaning of hypocrisy. You?”

    You say you know the meaning of hypocrisy, but I don’t think you do, because you also say you admit that your are thick (Thick may refer to: A “thick” person, someone lacking in intelligence (see stupidity );) and yet you continue to assail us with your words of “wisdom.” You either are dumb (thick) or you are not. But, if you say you are (thick), and pretend you aren’t (thick) then you have proven you are thick (dumb) and that you are also a hypocrite for saying you are one thing but actually being another.

  149. fiftytwopickup… and his new name is aislander!

  150. aislander says:

    I have the many, many, local anecdotal examples of immigrant-owned small businesses that are fostered by a culture that values entrepreneurism and hard work.

    I have the many, many anecdotal examples of able-bodied people dependent on handouts from government and creating a blight in the middle of American cities with the Occupy movement.

    Socialism doesn’t work. If you try to divide nothing equally, you have nothing…

  151. fiftytwopickup says:

    “One of the funniest antidotes of all time….you sit there like you’re in a comma.”

  152. LarryFine says:

    Agreed aislander.

    Hey, if the same party that controls the senate also controls the executive branch… would it be an accurate statement to say that party is in control?

    (of course I know the answer, but apparently Kard doesn’t)

  153. Sorry muck, but I think I’ve educated YOU to the principle of supply and demand. The demand for influence will always be there. Always. The supply (the government) is the only thing that can be changed.

  154. fiftytwopickup says:

    is Fine gonna start that kard crap on this blog now?

    get a life

  155. LarryFine says:

    BTW… apparently the tingle up Chris Matthews’ leg is gone…

  156. LarryFine says:

    Love the new moniker “fifty”…

  157. LarryFine says:

    LOL… so transparent.

  158. fiftytwopickup says:

    shove it

  159. LarryFine says:

    :)

  160. LarryFine says:

    The tingle is gone .

  161. fiftytwopickup says:

    oloo

  162. aislander says:

    This thread really seems to rile the left. Good.

    Did you notice that it took them about a millisecond after my first post to pull out the race card? The last refuge of a…

  163. LarryFine says:

    Onyango Oloo … LMAO !

    Such a Kard.

  164. LarryFine says:

    What’s really telling, aislander, is you’re post was complimentary to the Asian community… the baiters are just sooooo blinded (or stupid) that they missed that.

    kooky

  165. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    You either are dumb (thick) or you are not. But, if you say you are (thick), and pretend you aren’t (thick) then you have proven you are thick (dumb) and that you are also a hypocrite for saying you are one thing but actually being another.

    DubyaTeeEff???

    I think we have a new rising star on the left here. I have not seen such genius and insight since…Tman… or x, maybe.

    Well, muck, now that we have all learned a new word, shall we move on to a new phrase? How about self deprecating? I know, I know, tough to grasp for the dogmatic left here, but give it the old college try.

  166. aislander says:

    It is considered un-PC to notice any sort of racial differences unless one is using those differences to argue for more government benefits.

    The irony is that I was not pointing to racial differences, but to cultural ones.

    Since culture affects behavior, my point is that behavior affects economic status…

  167. Vox, you really really need to take that comprehensive reading course. You have my sincere sympathies!

  168. ReaganRevival says:

    If Reagan were president, he would get us out of the recession.

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-recession1982.htm

  169. ReaganRevival says:

    The phrase I like is refudiate

  170. aislander says:

    “Refudiate” isn’t a phrase; it’s a neologism. Many new words have been created by politicians in America, including “normalcy,” “bloviate,” and “corpseman…”

  171. Come on! Can’t you be honest about anything?

    corpseman is NOT a new word coined by politics. It was a gaffe that occurred in a speech when President Obama meant to honor Navy Corpsmen, but mis-pronounced the word as one would pronounce the two separate words “corpse” and “man”.

    refudiate is NOT a new word coined by politics. It was a gaffe by half-term Alaska Governor Sarah Palin when she confusedly mashed-up the words refute and repudiate together. She subsequently tried to justify her obvious gaffe as almost something she meant to do on purpose by claiming she had the same authority to create new words as did William Shakespeare. The fact is, she gaffed, but would not admit it. She never admits she makes any mistakes.

    normalcy was first used in 1857, originally as a mathematical term NOT a political one..

    bloviate first known use was non-political in 1857, as a Midwestern word for “to talk aimlessly and boastingly; to indulge in ‘high falutin’,”

    Both normalcy and bloviate were made famous in politics due to frequent usage by President Warren Harding, around the 1920s. However, refudiate and corpseman are nothing more than gaffes made by Palin and Obama respectively, and any other explanation for them is plainly dishonest.

  172. aislander says:

    Try cutting down on the caffeine…

  173. According to Mark J. Perry, professor in economics – http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/08/tax-facts-of-day.html

    The top 1% of taxpayers paid 39.9% of all income taxes paid in 2006.

    According to the letter author, the top 1% now pay 85% of all income taxes paid.

    Is this an illustration of how far apart the wealthy and the working class have become in the past five years, or is this just a hyperbolic random number?

  174. Here’s a real neologism for you…

    santorum

    Look that one up on Google and see what you find!

    (I’ll be back in a bit to see how you respond. Right now I have to go make a fresh pot of coffee.)

  175. DrDemo, neither. It’s just an another example of the fact that the writer doesn’t know what he/she (Chris) is talking about. No fact checking. No supporting references. Just throwing stuff out there, like monkeys flinging whatever at the zoo.

  176. aislander says:

    Seriously, dude: seek help…

  177. muckibr, sadly it appears that an overwhelming number of the participants on this dialog don’t take the time to fact check the claims of these writers. More sad that the media just publishes without consideration of accuracy.

  178. DrDemo, I agree with you. And even more sadly, when you challenge them on the facts they tend to get hyper aggressive by responding with personal attacks.

    Case in point, Vox_whatsitsname. (See comments above.)

    Another case in point, aislander, who really needs help a lot more than he/she would admit, but would prefer to reply with an abusive ad hominem instead of defending his/her original statement.

    But then again, I enjoy calling them out, to watch them wither away for lack of anything intelligent to say.

  179. aislander says:

    Look, muck, my “original statement” was a throwaway–a joke–that I believe it is a little pathological to get so worked up about. Sheesh!

  180. muckibr, while you are probably more aggressive than I would be, I must admit that the lack of factual comments on these forums is what has taken me from a reader to a participant. I guess I had to admit that if I wasn’t part of the solution, I was part of the problem.

  181. seriously dudes, ustedes necesitan ayuda

  182. “…neologism…”

    Wow, you were just kidding around he actually looked it up to “correct” you…

    too funny…

  183. aislander says:

    I’m just wondering if the call has rung out from the fever swamps to up the amperage on the rhetoric. The natives seem particularly restless…

  184. “ The 400 highest-earning taxpayers in the U.S. reported a record $105 billion in total adjusted gross income in 2006, but they paid just $18 billion in tax, new Internal Revenue Service figures show. That works out to an average federal income tax bite of 17%–the lowest rate paid by the richest 400 during the 15-year period covered by the IRS statistics.” Forbes.com

    The top 400 held as much wealth as the combined wealth of 155 million of the rest of us, on the average. 85% of all the wealth accumulated in the last 10 years in the USA went to the top 400.

    In the 1970’s CEO’s made $25 for every $1.00 of the workers. Now, they make $90 for every $1 a worker gets. (please tell me again how it is the greed of labor that is causing our problems?)

    In 2010, Wells Fargo had a big jump in profits. The CEO asked for his salary to be cut 6% from $18.6 million to $17.6 million and rejected a $20 million bonus and took $11 million instead. That action paid for all employees to get a 4% pay increase, plus bonuses for many positions.

    One thing all these statistics point out is how far removed from the average income that a few Americans at the top are.

    The causes of the wealth imbalance are not that they work harder than others. It is directly due to policies put in place by our government and by corporations who run our government.

  185. aislander says:

    I never would have used the word, xx, if that lefty, whose current screen name isn’t important, hadn’t taken a cheap, gratuitous, and completely unoriginal shot at Sarah Palin and her “new word.”

    I was able to shoot back at said lefty AND Obama with very little effort…

  186. ya know, I am gonna go bb conspiracy here and state that it is marching orders from the “OWS” type puppet masters, part of a larger, longer term strategy.

    No doubt in my mind that this is organized. I see the pieces, the truth will come out later but it’s there. I reread some Alinsky and what is happening appears to be classic.

    Sorry to say, it’s beginning.

    Stay strong brother

  187. oh its easy to shoot back but there is no shame, none what so ever

  188. Thanks to tuddo for getting this back on track! Facts! Cold hard facts!

    But first, I would just like to end my back’n forth with aislander by reminding everyone that when Herman Cain got caught with his comment about electrifying the fence between the U.S. and Mexico, and thus killing border crossers, he too said “It was just a joke!” Ha! Ha! Just a joke aislander. I think not. I think you got caught trying to pass off garbage as fact, and now you’re trying to cover by saying it was just a joke. Here’s a neologism I would like to offer. You got “cained!” You were trying to do what Herman Cain could not! That is, passing off a stupid comment as a joke, after the fact.

    Now back on topic.. In short, tuddos facts show that this country has been in the throws of Reverse Robinhoodism for at least the past forty years! Taking from the middle-class and the poor to give to the rich! The wealth of America has already been redistributed to to rich. The OWSers simply would like the regulations put back in place, to stop the ultra-rich from being able to steal more, and perhaps find some way that they, the ultra-rich, can return the wealth they stole from the middle-class and poor back to the people they stole it from. Fair is fair!

  189. aislander says:

    I think so, too. The best defense…

  190. aislander says:

    Beyond belief…

  191. mucky – you talk about facts but then use rhetoric to state the ultra-rich stole from the middle class and poor. How do you steal wealth when I (and you) are getting a wage?

  192. Yes, executive salaries have increased at a greater rate than the average worker but that is a result of boardromm idiocy not criminal behavior.

  193. Also what does Cain have to do with neologism? He made a bad joke.

    I thought aislanders was pretty funny. Oh well to each his own.

  194. aislander, I have to comment on your words when you wrote “I never would have used the word, xx, if that lefty, whose current screen name isn’t important, hadn’t taken a cheap, gratuitous, and completely unoriginal shot at Sarah Palin and her “new word.””

    1. You used “the word” BEFORE I made any mention of Sarah Palin.
    2. I never made any cheap shot at Palin. I only reported The Facts!
    3. I also reported The Facts about President Obama’s gaffe.
    4. I still have not seen any comment you made about President Obama.
    5. I am NOT a liberal (really meaning Democrat). (I am proudly a non-partisan Independent!)

    Question: Was that all a joke too? Ha! Ha! Ha! Thanks Herman aislander!

    xx… Do YOU need help? (Para Espanol oprima numero dos!)

  195. I’ve seen this before… I don’t think this is caffine… I think it is coke…

  196. anything on the stealing that not really stealing but idiots in the boardroom comment or…

  197. It is a sad day for Americans when board room idiocy can be the defense for possible criminal behavior. It makes stupid mistakes quite profitable for a limited group of individuals

  198. there no defense it is either criminal or its not. Do you have any sort of proof or reference to a criminal investigation as it relates to CEO compensation?

    I never said it was a mistake.

  199. xx… You ask “How do you steal wealth when I (and you) are getting a wage?”

    I will give you two (2) simple examples.

    1. If you have a 401k or 403b retirement program at work, and it has been invested for you by your plan administrator, what has happened to its value in the past few years? Okay, don’t scratch your head until it bleeds. I will tell you. It has lost value! Where has that money gone? Stop scratching! Because there are always winners and losers in the stock market, and we know who the losers have been, the logical answer is that the winners have been the rich getting richer. And that, xx, is a proven fact. While middle-class Americans have lost huge sums of money in the stock market, the rich have profited immensely from their investments. How do you explain that?

    2. You say we are both “getting a wage?” What happens when you get laid off? Do you still get your wage? No! Really! But the rich owners of your former company get a cost reduction don’t they? Why yes they do. They make it a permanent cost cut by shipping your former job to China! They are so smart!!!

    Make sense? (Par Espanol oprima numero dos!)

  200. aislander says:

    That comment wasn’t even ABOUT you, muck. ReaganRevival made the original reference to “refudiate.” Unless you’re RR…

  201. That’s what happens when you invest in a stock it can lose value. It is clear as day to any investor. It is written on many documents that you sign. How could yo not know that those funds are at risk?

    When you lose your job you lose you wage, that is what happens.

    When you own the company you typically don’t lose your “wage” that also is what happens.

    yes, other countries are catching up to America. China is one of them.

  202. Yes, the Chinese are smart… I would also add schrewd…

  203. aislander says:

    xx98411 writes: “I’ve seen this before… I don’t think this is caffine… I think it is coke…”

    So…mucky was literally snorting in derision…

  204. Does everyone else see what I was saying about those who cannot argue the facts resorting to personal ad hominem attacks? Look at the comments by aislander and xx…

    aislander especially, referring to me as “mucky” rather than my actual screen name. I have been respectful of both of these people, and all others on this blog in my comments. I would hope to have the simple adult respect reciprocated.

    Instead, these two resort to childish name-calling. That is something a child does, not a grown-up adult. That’s also when I stop exchanging words with these kinds of people. Because I don’t have the time to waste on children when discussing adult topics.

  205. aislander says:

    I wrote (in response to xx98411): “I never would have used the word, xx, if that lefty, whose current screen name isn’t important, hadn’t taken a cheap, gratuitous, and completely unoriginal shot at Sarah Palin and her “new word.”

    I was referring to ReaganRevival. Now go away…

  206. mucky – you get to choose how your retirement fund is managed from treasury bonds to high risk… YOU get to make the call and must acknoledge those choices.

    As to the second part I have no clue what you are describing… How do “rich investors” swoop into a fund… that doesn’t happen dude. Are you describing John Corzine appears to have done something like that. He appears to be in big trouble if that maek yo feel better.

    Yes it is a layoff. That’s what happens in the real world.

    I don’t give rats buttocks about the 1% nor any other percent except my percentages. I am doing what I need to do to provide for my family and not waste my time blaming unseen people for anything that happens to me. I control my life and my future.

    How about you….?

  207. Getting back on topic, the original letter writer (Chris Talbert) wrote, “Don’t resent the rich, join them.”

    I ask: How?

    The facts are, if you are not already a member of the 1% Club the rich DO NOT want you to join them. They don’t want to divide the pie up anymore than it’s already been divided. They want to keep getting richer, which they have proven over the past 40 years. They DO NOT want others coming into their level and competing against them to possibly take some of their wealth away or even to make their wealth less wealthy by comparison to others.

    The process of systematically eliminating the middle-class, and the increasing of the ever widening gap between the Rich and the Poor, is all specifically designed by the rich to make sure fewer and fewer people in America who are not already rich will ever have the opportunity to become rich. They don’t want the competition.

    So, I ask Chris Taylor to respond to the comment “Don’t resent the rich, join them.”

    How do we do that Chris?? How!

  208. mukibr, as per my earlier comment, this is why I’ve been reluctant to participate, other than as a reader, on this forum. It seems to always erode to some level of verbal playground jostling.

    Your fortitude is far more stout than mine, although I will say daily content here has provided some interesting classroom discussions on control issues and other dynamics of psychology.

  209. I am sorry you feel so helpless mucky (I mean it as an affectionate term ;) )

  210. DrDemo, I would like to read your assessment of some of the psych dynamics you have observed here. I think that would be very interesting and educational for us all. Please feel free to share whatever you wish, and know that at least I will not attack you for any criticism that may come my way. Thanks!

  211. muckibr, it is all standard stuff. The class has determined that we haven’t unearthed any potential serial killers. We did have a great discussion on condescending verbage and its use as a tool for leverage when a party is lacking on data to support their position. I emphasize that there were no earth shattering conclusions, but plenty of text book examples. Passive/aggressive was frequently noted.

  212. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Tuddo- “In the 1970′s CEO’s made $25 for every $1.00 of the workers. Now, they make $90 for every $1 a worker gets. (please tell me again how it is the greed of labor that is causing our problems?)

    In 2010, Wells Fargo had a big jump in profits. The CEO asked for his salary to be cut 6% from $18.6 million to $17.6 million and rejected a $20 million bonus and took $11 million instead. That action paid for all employees to get a 4% pay increase, plus bonuses for many positions.”

    CEO average pay- $11.5mil according to AFLCIO, not exactly a conservative org (WSJ reports $9.3mil). We are talking about companies with billions in revenue and, on good years, billions of profits. The CEO pay makes a nice talking point, but effects little.

    And do you really think $10mil paid for a 4% wage increase? They have 263,800 employees. $38 per employee.

  213. mucky and ad hominem – in order for there to be an ad hominem attack there first have to be fact… there is little to none. You, sir have been providing a very passionate plea for the working man and I do so appreciate it.

    personal attacks…. sorry we don’t know you. I am sure you are a nice guy and all. As a medic I have seen this behavior before and the person had actually snorted more cocaine then he really should have. I thought his heart rate was a little fast at 120 sitting down until I realized I missed a few beat when we put the machine on him… it was actually 226… we drove real fast to Harborview… anyway off topic but that is what I was referring to…

    mucky – you kinda remind me of a guy and I had a pet name for him too.

    anyway – I am trying to finish up a company bio for my new company so that I can make my best efforts to raise my percentage in life. Kinda in the lower digits right now but… I think I can kick Chan’s, Indiri, Song, Nakimichi, et al collective buttocks… or I am gonna die trying… Go Team America…

    wish me luck mucky… ;)

  214. xx… Your 1st paragraph doesn’t make any sense at all. Pure unadulterated nonsense. Gibberish.

    2nd paragraph, proves you are a terrible judge of character or even human behavior. I have never used cocaine or any other illegal drugs in my entire life. (p.s. I hope I am never in your ambulance or under your pseudo-medical care in any way.)

    3rd paragraph, stupid comment. Childish.

    4th paragraph, I’d have to say, given your comments on this blog, your new company will most likely fail because you have a very poor grasp of people skills. Anyway, I hope it fails.

    No, I won’t wish you luck. I honestly hope you fail. You will learn more that way, and you my friend are in great need of learning.

  215. LarryFine says:

    aislander says “The natives seem particularly restless” … I say native… and yes, all “14” of ‘em.

    Good grief. I think since Cris Matthews and few other diehard Obama supporters have recommended the “messiah” not seek a second term, that the snail has kicked it up a notch.

  216. Very good assessment Dr, passive aggresive it is…

  217. DrDemo, as regards “discussion on condescending verbage” I imagine some of my posts may have been cited. I get that way from time to time, not intentionally meaning to, however.

    Thanks for the feedback. Please feel free to share more if you can.

  218. LarryFine says:

    5:05 … see what I mean.

    Such a sad escargot.

  219. you caught that too… LF

    They are more aggressive too. I think they are seeing what TNT will let them get away with and push the envelope from there.

    Ususally it is pretty passive aggressive in tone but lately it has become overtly aggresive. All indications are that this is the new norm moving forward.

  220. it is pitiful bordering on mental issues… seriously…

  221. muckibr, I’m not an analyst, I’m an instructor. Class resumes next week. I’m certain that we’ll have lots to discuss.

  222. LarryFine says:

    … 3rd person again… kooky.

    … since I’m looking out for you, don’t forget the Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT)I cautioned you about…

    DVT is the formation of a blood clot in a deep vein, usually in a calf or thigh muscle. DVT can partly or completely block blood flow, causing chronic pain and swelling. It may damage valves in blood vessels, making it difficult for you to get around. A blood clot can also break free and travel through your blood to major organs, such as your lungs or heart. There, it can cause damage and even death within hours.
    .
    Common “at risk” factor includes …

    – sitting on ones @$$ for extended periods, while attempting to create the illusion more people actually share the same opinion as you. Scientists have found the largest risk consists of leftists that drank the “hope and change” hogwash and are no in full back pedal mode.

    Signs and symptoms include (but not limited to)

    – Swelling in one or both legs
    – Pain or tenderness in one or both legs, which may occur only while standing or walking
    – Warmth in the skin of the affected leg
    – Red or discolored skin in the affected leg
    – Visible surface veins
    – Leg fatigue
    – creating multiple monikers
    – rampant hypocrisy

    If a blood clot breaks free and travels to your lungs it’s called a pulmonary embolism, and it can be fatal. Pulmonary embolism may not cause symptoms, but if you ever suffer sudden coughing, which may bring up blood; sharp chest pain; rapid breathing or shortness of breath; or severe lightheadedness, call 911 or go to an emergency room immediately.

    Dr.L. Fine

  223. LarryFine says:

    “I’m an instructor”

    BTDT

  224. LarryFine says:

    … anybody, what’s the weather like in Hawaii ?

    Has their internet be restored yet ?

  225. concerned, I am sure it had to do something with payout over time, ability to make investments, etc. I do not know the details, just reporting what Wells Fargo and Forbes had to say about it.

  226. LarryFine says:

    Hawaii ??? Elona quimperiana….

  227. aislander says:

    The DVT is probably the result of sitting in front of a PC in his mom’s basement without getting up and walking around every so often…

  228. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    DrDemo, I agree with you. And even more sadly, when you challenge them on the facts they tend to get hyper aggressive by responding with personal attacks.
    Case in point, Vox_whatsitsname. (See comments above.)

    I hate to interrupt your little cute little romance, but here is a challenge on facts, mucky; kindly show the peanut gallery where I was “hyper aggressive by responding with personal attacks“ against you. You’re flat making this crap up. Anyway, victimization won’t cut it here, friend – this is a tough crowd.

    However, if you like it rough…

    It is rather ironic how I can be accused of having a comprehension disability, by case studies of the condition. And please, mucky, lighten up. Shed your pseudo-intellectual lib inability to recognize humor and sarcasm and start laughing with us, ’cuz the alternative is your status quo – and that ain’t good.

  229. “I hate to interrupt your little cute little romance, but here is a challenge on facts, mucky; kindly show the peanut gallery where I was “hyper aggressive by responding with personal attacks“ against you. You’re flat making this crap up. Anyway, victimization won’t cut it here, friend – this is a tough crowd.

    However, if you like it rough…

    It is rather ironic how I can be accused of having a comprehension disability, by case studies of the condition. And please, mucky, lighten up. Shed your pseudo-intellectual lib inability to recognize humor and sarcasm and start laughing with us, ’cuz the alternative is your status quo – and that ain’t good.”

    Let’s remove the personal insults from this post and see what’s left”

    (crickets chirping)

  230. “Let’s remove the personal insults from this post and see what’s left”

    wowzers you guys are right… I look forward to the discussion moving forward and especially to your contributions ehill. They are indeed fascinating.

  231. LarryFine says:

    Kard like in fact.

  232. yabetchya says:

    Is Eric taking over where his dad left off?

  233. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    BTDT

  234. ehill, here is is, the Vox message with the personal insults removed…

    “I hate to interrupt – this is a tough crowd.
    However, – and that ain’t good.”

    Back on topic, I would still like to know from Chris Talbert, or anyone else who would care to offer a serious answer, how one can “join the rich” when the rich are purposely widening the gap between the rich versus not rich to prevent new rich from emerging. Anyone have a serious comment on this?

  235. aislander says:

    LarryFine: I’m not an analyst…or an instructor…or a doctor. But I play ALL of those roles on this forum. So, like, you HAVE to believe me or I will feign profound insult if you don’t…

  236. Is it any wonder that big monied people didn’t suffer in the market crash in 2008? They just happened to be insulted against loss. The wealthy have no plan on sharing the top.

  237. mucky – you are proposing it is a conspiracy that a relativley unrelated gorup of people are working against you to become rich.

    Ask the Facebook guy how he became “rich”… check out other stories of people that became “rich”… they typically found a problem that needed to be solved, found a solution to that problem, created a solution, commercialized that solution and… so it goes.

    do you have even anecdotal evidence that “the rich are purposely widening the gap between the rich versus not rich to prevent new rich from emerging.

    You find out how the rich are purposely widening the gap, if it exists, and you will have one key to becoming rich.

  238. actually RX they did they just were, in general, able to absorb the hit, make adjustments and recover.

    For you how did 2008 affect you. Did you lose any money out of your pocket or was it on paper?

    There are no secrets here guys.

  239. meant for RW98512, sorry…

  240. aislander says:

    Okay. Seriously now. If you view yourself as a powerless victim, you ARE a powerless victim.

    The “rich” are under no obligation to share anything with anyone. They will act in their own self interest first–as will ANY adult.

    So BE an adult. Quit acting like a two-year-old, totally dependent on mommy and daddy, and help YOURSELF, for God’s sake.

    This whole mindset disgusts me beyond words…

  241. Larry Fine—
    i dont think its okay for the CEOs to make 250-500 times what the average worker makes. my point is that they are not that much more deserving or meritorious than the rest of us. also i dont think its okay for my country to be ranked 64th (or even 39th) in income equality. it’s one thing to disagree about solutions, it is quite another to claim that there is no problem.

  242. xx, so glad you brought up “the Facebook guy”! How did he get rich. Same as most other rich people get rich. He stole another person’s value (the original idea for Facebook) and made money from it as if it was his own idea.

    The truth about facebook and Zuckerberg is that the Winklevoss twins, Cameron and Tyler, and their friend Divya Narendra came up with the idea for Facebook. They hired Mark Zuckerberg to do the computer programming for them. (Zuckerberg was only a nerd coder at the time!) Instead of doing as he was hired, Zuckerberg stole the entire idea for Facebook, claimed it as his own, and refused to share any credit or money with the real people who created the idea.

    That is not just an anecdote, it is a legal fact because the Winklevoss’ sued Zuckerberg and received a multimillion dollar settlement which for any sensible person means that Zuckerberg admitted he was/is a thief.

    As to the second issue you mention; it is a confirmed fact that as middle-class Americans were losing huge amounts of their retirement accounts that were invested in the stock market, the ultra rich were making correspondingly huge profits during the same period of time. It was a plain as day redistribution of wealth from the middle-class to the rich, making the middle class a poorer class and the rich a much richer class, thus widening the gap between the two.

    One would have assumed that if the stock market crashed, as it did, then all investors should lose value. A crash is a crash, right? But that did not happen. The market only crashed for the middle-class and that was what was reported immediately in the news. No mention was made of the market boom experienced at the same time by the rich investors. Read the news! It has been reported by several sources in the past few months. The rich prospered in the stock market when everyone else lost their retirement funds.

    Your response to RW98512 about the rich simply being able to “absorb the hit” in 2008 is dead wrong. It is an ignorant and uniformed comment that bears no resemblance to the facts. The rich made money during that hit, because it did not hit them! That is a fact.

    In this country, more than anytime it it’s history, the old saying is now the Gold Saying, “It takes money to make money!” And if you don’t have money, you are screwed. That’s the real secret guys!

  243. aislander – they have set the terms that are to out advantage…. Facts and no personal insults…. Perfect.

    In my response to mucky I have not accepted his premise and believe it to be conspiracy, I offered a recent well known example of a person becoming rich, I requested evidence for his premise of “purposely widening”

    To RW I proposed a factual response based on wealth management principles.

    It is now up to them, within the proposed rules set by ehill, to response

    Enjoy the response as yet another layer falls…

  244. aislander says:

    I didn’t mean to imply criticism of you, xx. You’re doing yeoman work, but I refuse to follow these…people…down any more rabbit holes…

  245. Predicted response, rejected premise – as most other rich people get rich…

    The twins got rich on the settlement any comment on them, especially with your comment below… it takes money to make money.. they got $100mil to build on. You are not really crying for them are you.

    What were the middle class people invested in… seems like a stupid investment portfolio don’t ya think?

    Stocks crash = all loss, not true as the Dow only measures a segment of the market not the market as a whole. The market can crash around you if you are invested in the correct stocks. Also you could have made a few dollars, as I have, on a stock falling in price… risky but possible.

    ”And if you don’t have money…”

    Then stop acting so helpless and worrying about other people and do what Zucky did, steal an idea…

    Do you invest?

  246. I didn’t take it that… I am the conservative thug and I relish the role. Besides I got a brand spanking new black latex easily hosed off outfit for the coming battles.

    I got another one on order, it’s going to be a busy year…

  247. aislander says:

    The major barrier to becoming rich in America is not people who already have money, it is government–specifically the progressive income tax and micro-meddling regulation…

  248. Right now he is figuring out how to answer me so that he can continue down the hole… I rejected his premise because of the term ‘all’

    Think about it accept the premise that zucky stole FaceBook, fine he’s a dolt and the Twins made out $100m worth of good to go kayack alot… They now have money to make money as is mucky’s premise.

    A loss of 200, 300, 400 points on the Dow is a measure of 30 stocks. Doesn’t mean ALL stocks are affected. If a person invest that should be basic fundamental knowledge or they should not be investing… period.

  249. “The major barrier to becoming rich in America is not people who already have money, it is government–specifically the progressive income tax and micro-meddling regulation…”

    BINGO… rememeber mucky per your statement – “it takes money to make money” – if the government is taking an ever increasing share how is little olde me and you suppose to invest in this the greatest nation ever on the face of this wonderful planet?

    takes money to make money… from what I can tell I can do alot better with the dollars at my disposal as oppose to the boys on the hill… they are pretty bad with a dollar man, you gots to admit that.

  250. 3
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  251. aislander says:

    If rich people are rigging the system, they are rigging it with the collaboration of government. So, why not eliminate that collusion by eliminating government’s power to rig the system?

    As I said before, it makes a lot more sense to stop swatting at flies and rather to remove the enormous pile of crap that’s attracting them.

    Make government a referee again and not a player…

  252. You really are very extremely ignorant aren’t you xx? The Winklevoss twins did not get rich from the Zuckerberg/Facebook settlement. They were already rich from old family money that got them in to Harvard. The settlement only made them richer. (Read a book or at least a newspaper once in a while will you?)

    What are middle-income people invested in? Whatever their assigned plan administrator usually recommends for them, because unlike the rich they cannot afford to pay the top market managers to manage their portfolios. The middle-class does not have access to inside information like the rich do to help them make their strategic financial moves. (Martha Stewart went to prison for insider trading, stealing, and now she’s back in business. Probably one of your biggest heroes eh xx?)

    As for stealing ideas of others to become rich. In my view, anyone who does that or even thinks its okay to do that, like you apparently do, is nothing more than the scum of the Earth. (“Thou shalt not steal.” Have you ever heard of that xx?)

    This is absolutely the last time I respond to any post by xx98411, simply because this person is totally incapable of learning anything new, does not have the least bit of an open mind, and by his/her own admission is likely to be entirely unethical. I predict xx…’s new business venture will fail as soon as people see how unethical and shallow this person really is. xx… does not have the smarts of a Zuckerberg to pull off a big steal. xx… is a loser.

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  254. aislander says:

    xx: Time to light up the cigar, I think. Mes compliments aux chef…

  255. Fine they were rich to begin with and they got RICHER as a result of a settlement… so…

    Middle class – if you invest you have control over where your 401k is invested. I have no clue as to why “recommeded” lacks control.

    I don’t advocate stealing, it is bad, zucky was a bad boy.

    I am appropiately insulted. ehill will be very disappointed in you. I also expect ehill to express appropriate outrage at the tone and tenor of your post.

    Either way, mommy is coming, you hurt my feelings… :(

  256. The best part is he won’t respond to anymore of my posts… score!!!

  257. aislander says:

    Thus the cigar…

  258. After the extra cookies mommy brought I am enjoying the cigar…

    But as you know that won’t stop another one of his many personalities from responding.

    I wonder what other TNT approved name he will call me as mucky has used ‘loser’ hmmm…

  259. LarryFine says:

    … and he started off with a personal attack… Kooky.
    .
    btw, I am as middle class income as they come, I have a portfolio, and I manage it.

  260. commoncents says:

    Please don’t use the 401k as an example of equity…it’s far from equal investing and equity ownership. You can’t vote 401k Proxy shares and your earnings are taxed at a higher rate. There is absolutely no reason that earnings on 401k plans should not be taxed at the same reason inside a plan as outside. Whether that tax rate is current capital gains rates or current income rates, I don’t care…but they should be equal. Without that you don’t have real participating of the masses in the equity markets.

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