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GOP: Now that was a feisty debate

Letter by Bambi Lin Litchman, Tacoma on Oct. 19, 2011 at 9:29 am with 89 Comments »
October 19, 2011 9:29 am

Wow, that’s entertainment! The Republican debate in Vegas was like a showdown at the O.K. Corral. An initial concerted group attack on Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 economic plan soon led to attacks amongst all, but mostly on Mitt Romney, who briefly lost his characteristically Ken Doll composure. At one point Romney placed his hand on Rick Perry’s shoulder, and one expected a brawl might ensue.

Cain was unable to adequately defend his plan. Rick Santorum pointed out that lower- and middle-income individuals would carry a disproportionate burden of the 9-9-9 plan. Romney lucidly observed that people will end up paying not only their own state sales tax, but an additional federal 9 percent tax. Cain disagreed, responding with a vague analogy of apples and oranges. He will need to elaborate if he intends to get that dog to hunt.

Perry and Romney faced off regarding recent attacks on Romney’s faith as a Mormon. Romney pointed out that the founding fathers firmly believed in freedom of religion.

While all candidates railed against big government and big spending, only Ron Paul would support large cuts to the bloated defense budget. The others squirmed nervously at the thought.

Perry rallied. Newt Gingrich promised Lincoln/Douglas-style debates.

Bring on the popcorn.

Leave a comment Comments → 89
  1. Cain, as flavor of the month, will be gone in a few weeks. I wonder if the GOP will just settle for Romney or bring someone new to the forefront. Maybe Newt will be the new flavor and we can have salacious Peyton Place-esque attacks and stories about marital infidelity that have nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

  2. Sadly, the GOPers are making it clear that Obama is the least bad choice – arrgh!

  3. There’s been some talk that the GOP nomimee was not on the stage last night and will not be know till the GOP convention.

  4. alindasue says:

    xring said, “There’s been some talk that the GOP nomimee was not on the stage last night and will not be know till the GOP convention.”

    I hope it’s Jon Huntsman.

  5. SadujTogracse says:

    Even with all their faults any one of the Republicans would be an improvement over what we have now. Maybe Giuliani will still get in, he and Rubio would be a formidable ticket!

  6. Looks like the libs are paying attention to the GOP debates. That’s a good thing, maybe they’ll learn something other than “Hope and Change”. LOL. Yep, we’ve seen some of that “hope and change’ haven’t we?

  7. old_benjamin says:

    Whatever Newt did, he didn’t do it in the Oval Office. If Clinton had conducted his affairs elsewhere, he probably would have avoided the Lewinsky scandal. Had it not been for term limits, he quite likely could have been re-elected. If voters don’t hold Obama’s abysmal incompetence against him, yet disdain Newt for his affairs, there is no hope for this country.

  8. ” Obama…least bad choice – arrgh!”

    Nope. Not so. Not IMHO

  9. Frosty we all seen a lot of ‘my way or no way’ from the Republicorp Party.

    Old_ben – there are not and never have been term limits for Congress.
    Newt lost because the voters in his district voted him out of office.

  10. PS: While Newt was ranting and raving about Monica he was cheating on his wife. Such a great man to run a moral chrisitian nation.

  11. CrazyJim says:

    It is though they want Obama to win the way they acted!

  12. Rollo_Tomassi says:

    xring –

    “Newt lost because the voters in his district voted him out of office.”

    Newt Gingrich was not beaten in his district. In fact he resigned his Speakership and his House seat in 1998 after Republicans suffered serious losses. even though he won. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt_Gingrich

    If you’re going to use the web, use it correctly. Not everything you think is true, so spend some time researching and documenting your “facts”.

    “Such a great man to run a moral chrisitian nation.”

    We’re a “christian nation”? That’s news to me. Perhaps you can find some documentation to prove that point – would be a great start to using the web correctly.

  13. “Looks like the libs are paying attention to the GOP debates.”

    How can you avoid them? Every TV channel is playing back the bickering between Perry and Mitt….which is an absolute hoot! Reminds me of a playground slap fight. I also enjoy Bachmann’s separation of Libya and Africa. Nothing changes. Oh and then Bachmann singing to the choir talking about Obama’s “illegal” aunt….like someone in that crowd would defend the poor old lady…

  14. Rollo…you are not real good at detecting sarcasm, are you?

    OB….yeah….Newt didn’t boink his aide in the White House because…he was never elected president. He did plenty of doodling in other hallowed halls….

  15. Zeituni Onyango was granted a waiver of deportation on May 17, 2010 by the United States and is currently a legal resident.

    As usual….Bachmann is way behind on the news

  16. old_benjamin says:

    xring, read more carefully. The “he” I referred to was Clinton, who was the last proper noun before the pronoun.

  17. Rollo –
    First you are right that Newt resigned. (My mistake)

    However a loss of 5 seats which did not cost the GOP control of the House is hardly serious.

    “Christian nation” – You don’t understand sarcasm do you?

    Nor are you familiar with conservacon rhetoric and talking points.

  18. old_benjamin says:

    Actually, Kardnos had no problem with Clinton’s behavior, hence the scarcasm, only with Republican hypocrites.

  19. old_ben – what I had problem with is the Starr investigation that wasted millions on a fishing expedition that resulted in yet more wasted government money on a politically motivated impeachment hearing.

    That has nothing to do with my sense of morality. It was his and his wife’s business.

  20. “Whatever Newt did, he didn’t do it in the Oval Office.”

    …………….then………..

    “The “he” I referred to was Clinton, who was the last proper noun before the pronoun”

    They don’t even deny well

  21. Clinton’s “behavior” is only as much my business as Newt’s “behavior”

  22. old_benjamin says:

    BB, I agree the hearing was politically motivated and ill conceived. At the same time, many people in the public eye have “morals” clauses in their private contracts that give the employer the right to dismiss the employee for cause. Presumably there is adequate agreement as to what “cause” means. If there is a need to insure some standards of behavior for those in private life, it is at least as important to do the same for those in high public office. Surely adultery is sufficiently serious, regardless of one’s religion (or lack therof) to warrant sanctions, regardless of what the meaning of “is” is. That said, there is no need to impose the political death penalty on someone who has been unfaithful in the past but has made appropriate amends. That principle I would apply to both Clinton and Gingrich at this juncture.

  23. old_benjamin says:

    Kardnos, I’m sure you meant well, but I’m damned if I know what it was.

  24. Old_ben,
    “Republican hypocrite” fits Newt to a tee. While impeaching Clinton, Newt was having a full blown affair which he now attributes to the stress he was under as speaker of the house.

  25. old_benjamin says:

    Indeed it does fit, xing. Now be just as honest in labeling Clinton a hypocrite and you won’t qualify as one yourself. Bible toting and church attendance doesn’t go very well with sexual hijinks with college kids.

    BTW, did you defend Clinton or support him in the Lewinsky affair?

  26. I took the position that the House was on a witch hunt over what was a private matter between Bill and Hillary.

  27. theglovesRoff says:

    I bet he defended him.

  28. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Sadly, the GOPers are making it clear that Obama is the least bad choice – arrgh!

    So… as it was in 2008, bB, the astroturf Manchurian candidate with the most inexperience, fluff, brash arrogance, constant campaigning, blame-game tactics, teleprompter speeches, and now (surprise, surprise) demonstrable incompetence, who has a “D“ in the party affiliation check box will be you man.

    Okay.

  29. I said – Clinton’s “behavior” is only as much my business as Newt’s “behavior”

    OB said – Kardnos, I’m sure you meant well, but I’m damned if I know what it was.

    Really?

  30. Vox…you left out “born in Africa” and “birth certificate”

  31. I can’t wait to hear what Bachmann will say about “Obama got us into Libya”, now that they killed the bad man.

  32. old_benjamin says:

    Kardnos, back up one more post. In the English language, a pronoun usually refers to the preceding noun. “He” has to refer to a male noun, which, in this case, would be “Clinton.” Glad to help–anytime.

  33. klthompson says:

    Actually Cain’s 9-9-9 plan does not lend itself to a sixty second explanation and he should be complimented for not trying. There are any number of pundits, most of whom have no economic credentials, who claim the plan would not work. On the other hand, Arthur Laffer, Reagan’s economic guru, states in a WSJ piece that it is a good economic plan. There is no doubt that some of the 47% of Americans who pay no income tax would have to start putting their money where their mouth is. And, before some of you start throwing darts, I am in that group. Our system of government cannot survive under a tax code of a reported 70,000 pages and millions of rules and regulations ruling social behavior.

  34. There was no more “one more post” prior to your “he, Newt”

    glad to help anytime…

  35. klthompson….so we just elect him to find out what it really is????

  36. old_benjamin says:

    Kardnos, caps added just for you.

    Whatever Newt did, he didn’t do it in the Oval Office. If CLINTON had conducted his affairs elsewhere, HE probably would have avoided the Lewinsky scandal. Had it not been for term limits, HE quite likely could have been re-elected.

  37. kit, with 999 the poor pay more the rich pay rest.

    One example put fort by a pundet:

    A family of 4 making $50,000 AGI, currently pays about $8,500 in income tax, under 999 they would pay about $13,500.

    Same family making $1,000,000 AGI currently pays about $284,000, under 999 they would pay about $145,000.

    Botm line 999 is good for the rich, Bad for the Nation.

  38. that should be ‘rich pay less’

  39. Beerboy, you concern for the “millions that Starr wasted on a fishing expedition” seems somewhat trite considering the “trillions” that Obama and his goon squad are wasting in a feeble attempt to create more government jobs.

  40. Let’s see…spend money creating jobs…or…spending money on a witch hunt…..

  41. frosty, at least Obama is not building a fence to nowhere, or paying US business to send jobs overseas.

  42. B/F added for you Bennie…

    Whatever Newt did, he didn’t do it in the Oval Office

    This fun little game of “which came first in Bennie’s comment, the Newt or the Clinton?

  43. concernedtacoma7 says:

    “spend money creating jobs” Where are those jobs? Even BHO has changed his rhetoric from ‘saved or created’ to ‘supported’.

    Bottom line he wasted a trillion dollars on hand outs to his union buds.

    While I am not a huge fan of the 999 plan, the fact that it cannot be explained in 60 seconds does not mean it cannot be explained. Try and explain our current tax system in less than 60 seconds.

  44. There are any number of pundits, most of whom have no economic credentials, who claim the plan would not work.

    Classic straw man.

  45. Look at all these economics experts who cite problems with 999 – and this is just from one article:

    Lawrence Mishel , president of the center-left Economic Policy Institute, took issue with Cain’s plan, saying it would disproportionately tax lower and middle income earners because they tend to spend a higher percentage of their incomes than wealthy people. And with a national sales tax, the more you buy, the more taxes you pay.
    [....]
    While a formal number crunch has yet to be completed, some economists are already crying foul over whether the 9-9-9 plan can bring in as much revenue as the current tax system.

    “The first thing I think is show me the money,” said Joel Slemrod, an economics professor at the University of Michigan. “I want to know whether it adds up and I suspect it doesn’t.”
    [....]
    The Tax Policy Center estimates that cutting capital gains taxes alone would allow 23,000 millionaires to pay no income taxes, a move that would add $11 billion to the deficit each year.
    [....]“There is something like 8,000 sales tax jurisdictions and they all [collect] it different ways,” McBride said. “It wouldn’t be as simple as adding 9 percent to the local sales tax rate and sending that to federal government.”
    [....]
    Ronald Alt, a senior research associate at the Federation of Tax Administrators, said a national sales tax would also bring up state sovereignty issues because states currently define their own sales tax policy. He noted that when the IRS offered to administer state income taxes, no state took them up on it.

    “States did not want to give up their sovereign right to define what the tax code could look like,” Alt said, adding that a national sales tax “would be a very big state rights issue.”
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/herman-cains-9-9-9-plan-buy-less-pay-less/

  46. frosty – so, the retroactive rationale for the $40 million Ken Starr investigation is the Obama Stimulus?

  47. Frosty,
    The wasted funds when to Wall Street and the Banks to pay bonus to the people who caused the meltdown.

    The Auto Company bailout would have been a waste if the Rpots had been able to divert the funds to investors rather than directly to the Auto Companies (i.e. your ‘his union buds’).

    The loans have been paid back and GM has even turned a profit.

  48. old_benjamin says:

    Kardnos, the fact that you prefer the reading that makes no sense over the one that does, and the one intended, says a great deal more than you realize about your knowledge of grammar or your warped psyche, or both.

  49. Bb – using your post form 1:45 and the issue with trying to explain the 999 plan, the analsis by your “experts’ sure seems incomplete…

    While a formal number crunch has yet to be completed, some economists are already crying foul over whether the 9-9-9 plan can bring in as much revenue as the current tax system.

    How can you be taken seriously and “cry foul” when you state you haven’t done a formal number analysis…

    “I want to know whether it adds up and I suspect it doesn’t.”

    Do you really want this guy advising you when his initial analysis is a suspicion… though not a science per se, don’t you want to at least do some analysis before you make a statement one way or another?

    The Tax Policy Center estimates that cutting capital gains taxes alone would allow 23,000 millionaires to pay no income taxes, a move that would add $11 billion to the deficit each year.

    But do those same millionaires pay some form of taxes elsewhere. $11 billion is only a deficit if you try to spend $11 billion that you don’t have…. Stop the excess spending.

    “It wouldn’t be as simple as adding 9 percent to the local sales tax rate and sending that to federal government.”

    We have computers now, it can be done… I can vouch for a locale that has a state and local tax… there are two line on the receipt… it can be done.

    He noted that when the IRS offered to administer state income taxes, no state took them up on it.

    The 999 plan does not offer to administer anything by the states. Also the IRS would be reduced in size and scope.

    This one is a goody…
    And with a national sales tax, the more you buy, the more taxes you pay.

    Don’t we criticize the amount we consume… and secondly doesn’t it make sense that the more you consume, the more you should pay for the consumption… Consume less, duh, like this is a bad thing.

  50. Kardnos, the fact that you prefer the reading that makes no sense over the one that does, and the one intended, says a great deal more than you realize about your knowledge of grammar or your warped psyche, or both.

    Bennie….if “a portion makes no sense”….I must remind you that the comment came from you….

  51. “While I am not a huge fan of the 999 plan, the fact that it cannot be explained in 60 seconds does not mean it cannot be explained”

    The biggest complaint about Barack Obama is that he is too “professorial” when answering a question.

    Now that we’ve got Herman Cain that can’t provide an answer in 60 seconds….it’s OK and we just need to trust him.

    There has been plenty of analysis on 999 to demonstrate that not only would Cain have trouble explaining it….he probably didn’t really think beyond the cute name of it, when adopting 999 as a campaign platform.

    Frankly, it will be his demise.

    That point aside…what does Cain know about “creating jobs”. He was a hatchet man for Godfathers, closing over 50% of the stores.

  52. oh…and Bennie….

    YOUR quote – “If CLINTON had conducted his affairs elsewhere, HE probably would have avoided the Lewinsky scandal. Had it not been for term limits, HE quite likely could have been re-elected.”

    So..you’re saying if Clinton and Lewinsky had their fling at the Motel 6 and she called what’s-her-name (interesting how we forget) and told her the sorrid details and kept the soiled dress…..

    THEN the Republican Party wouldn’t have made a big deal out of it. You are trying to say it was all about the Oval Office???

    If so…what was the big deal about Paula Jones?

  53. concernedtacoma7 says:

    http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

    It is a plan still being developed, but at least he has a place to start and ideas other than just spending china’s money.

    How long did Obama try and ‘explain’ his healthcare plan so we all would know what it was about and come to love it? Months. The majority did not want it, and Harry/Nancy/Barry rammed it through anyway.

  54. old_benjamin says:

    Kardnos, I must remind you that you read my post in the most stupid and ungrammatical way possible.

    Paula Jones didn’t get Clinton impeached. That’s a rather significant difference in her and Lewinsky.

  55. Too bad this guy, Thomas Sowell never chose to run for office. And he’s black, too Kardnos–professor at at schools like Harvard and Stanford… so you can’t play the race card. Oh wait, lots of people have found their way around that with Cain. Oh well.

    Listen to Sowell said about the expectations folks had of Barack Obama:

    “Like so many other expectations that so many people projected onto this little-known man who suddenly burst onto the political scene, the expectation of movement toward a post-racial society had no speck of hard evidence behind it — and all too many ignored indications of the very opposite, including his two decades of association with the egregious Reverend Jeremiah Wright.

    Those people of good will who want to replace the racism of the past with a post-racial society have too often overlooked the fact that there are others who instead want to put racism under new management, to have reverse discrimination as racial payback for past injustices.”

    “Racism under new management” what a perfect way to describe the Wright-Farakahn syndrome.

    Sowell has written a great deal of startling clear and logical articles and books. As I said, too bad he never ran for office. Too good and too smart I reckon.

  56. old_benjamin says:

    And far too honest to be successful in the political arena. Anyone who points out that blacks have not been well served by their Democrat masters will feel the disdain of the leftist mob, as has Herman Cain. “Pizza man,” said Hilary Clinton, echoing Eugene Robinson. Nothing is quite as impressive as community organizer who served a very mediocre two years in the U.S. Senate, certainly not a career as a CEO of a major corporation and a member of the Federal Reserve Board of Kansas City.

    I suspect is Obama’s for his presidency.

  57. And Real Clear Politics says Obama beats Cain by 8 points.

  58. old_benjamin says:

    xring, the best thing you can do with that poll is line your bird cage. They won’t mind because they can’t read it.

  59. Love how conservative white guys are so concerned for the well-being of the black community….. Apparently they think, with a very few exceptions, blacks are really stupid and can’t figure out what is best for them.

    Kinda the inverse of the Dem loyalists who are so concerned for the NASCAR, working class white voter who is a loyal Republican in spite of the evidence that Republicans serve their masters – not the working man. (but then, neither do the Dems).

  60. Love how conservative white guys are so concerned for the well-being of the black community…

    why do yo believe that a politcal group thinks that “blacks are really stupid”

    It appears you have issues with both political parties… so I ask what are you for… what are your solutions?

  61. “Apparently they think, with a very few exceptions, blacks are really stupid and can’t figure out what is best for them.”

    C’mon bBoy, really? This presumption is what keeps the Left alive in this country. The Master-Plantation paradigm IS the platform of the left, quite demeaning to black Americans and to the rest of us as well.

    Daddy and his appointed nannies will take care of everything, including regulating essentially your every thought, word and decision.

    Men like Cain stir up waters they have tried to channel for their own purposes for years. And I’ll even give them the benefit of the doubt. I’ll even go so far as to say that perhaps they really do think they have everyone’s best interest at heart.

    It doesn’t make them right, and it DOESN’T make it right for them to interfere with the freedoms granted to individuals in this country.

  62. old_benjamin says:

    “Concern for the well being of the black community” has resulted in the virtual destruction of the black family since the middle of the last century. Perhaps its time for a less meddling and more self reliance. It certainly can’t make the situation any worse.

  63. has resulted

    Evidence?

    Remember, correlation is not equal to causation.

    If the only thing that you have is correlation, then you could also make the argument at desegregation has resulted in the “virtual destruction of the black family”

  64. old_benjamin says:

    bB, see the works of Thomas Sowell

    He had this to say in an article entitled “War on Poverty Revisited,” which appeared in “Capitalism” magazine, August 17, 2004:

    “While some good things did come out of the 1960’s, as out of many other decades, so did major social disasters that contine to plague us today. Many of these disasters began quite clerly during the 1960’s.”

    If you peruse the article, you will see quite clearly that he is referring to disasters in the black community.

    Of course, I can’t summarize his work on this forum. You’ll have to educate yourself.

  65. old_benjamin says:

    As far “desegregation,” I know of no creditable scholar who thinks that in itself was a cause of the disintegration of the black family.

    Maybe George Bush did it, but, so far, not even Susan Saradon has made that charge. Of course, she may at some future date.

  66. o_b – an opinion piece by one writer (even if he is the cons favorite black) isn’t evidence.

  67. old_benjamin says:

    Right you are, bB. Therefore I referred you to the body of his work. It wouldn’t be difficult to find his evidence if you were a mind to.

  68. So, since you agree with his point of view you are satisfied that he is correct without examining his evidence…..

  69. “o_b – an opinion piece by one writer (even if he is the cons favorite black) isn’t evidence.”

    Do your homework on this one, please bBoy. Thomas Sowell is far more than “the cons favorite black.” You are an educated man, a teacher for goodness’ sake. Sowell is brilliant and well-respected. It is my understanding he does not consider himself a Republican by any means. If anything, closer to a Liberterian and therefore at odds with many “cons.”

    You are missing the mark on this one, and again, revealing something about yourself that goes against the profile you have heretofore created on this blog.

  70. The problem with Thomas Sowell is that he is too smart and has too much integrity to buy into the easy, adverserial and counter-productive tripe that the masses have chosen to grab hold of. He thinks deeper, looks farther down the road, looks farther back into history, studies and understands people and systems at a level most people will NEVER bother to study.

    bBoy, I was disappointed that you had nothing to say in response to my plea that you acknowledge the Master-Plantation paradigm of the Dems. Show me where I’m mistaken about this.

  71. old_benjamin says:

    bB, I have read Sowell extensively. You can’t understand his case based on a paragaph on this blog, anymore than you can understand your favorite thinker, Marx, based on a pargraph. Do your own reading and maybe even thinking.

  72. Old-ben – Real Clear Politics tracks most of the major pools and produces an average.
    In this case the net result is that Obama beats Cain by 8 points.

  73. your favorite thinker, Marx

    While I acknowledge Marx’s contributions, I am much more interested in the Frankfurt School like Adorno, Marcuse or Benjamin.

    Others I enjoy, in no particular order, include:

    Michel Foucault
    Georges Bataille
    Frederic Jameson
    Roland Barthes
    Dick Hebdigie
    David Harvey
    Julie Kristeva
    Susan Bordo
    Tom Faw Driver
    Richard Schechner
    Victor Turner
    Susan Sontag
    Micea Eliade
    bell hooks

    et al

  74. old_benjamin says:

    bB, try Sowell.

  75. old_benjamin says:

    xring, I care as much about polls as I do about the Seattle Storm.

    This time four years ago, Obama was in third place and McCain was on life support.

  76. I wonder why the Republican Party spends so much money on polls that their constituents allegedly don’t pay attention to…..

  77. Sowell has stated that he was a Marxist “during the decade of my 20s”; one of his earliest professional publications was a sympathetic examination of Marxist thought vs. Marxist-Leninist practice.

    Now why doesn’t this get brought up in the same light and reference as Van Jones’ comment about his “communism”?

  78. “Now why doesn’t this get brought up in the same light and reference as Van Jones’ comment about his “communism”?”

    current behavior measured against past behavior…

  79. Many people entertain Marxist ideology when young. Then they grow up and acquire knowledge AND wisdom. Sowell is a perfect example. There is no parallel between Thomas Sowell and Van Jones except that each of them is a black man.

  80. a sympathetic examination of Marxist thought vs. Marxist-Leninist practice.

    is an easy thing to do – even if you are not a Marxist – perhaps even easier to do if you aren’t one.

    Marx’s materialist philosophy no longer holds the dominant sway that it had 50 years ago in the academia – but that is true of all philosophy that was formed over a century ago. Time marches on. Change happens.

  81. sozo – the parallel between Sowell and Jones is BOTH of them were attracted to the communist party in their youth and BOTH of them no longer ascribe to their beliefs.

    The difference between them is Sowell went to the other radical extreme while Jones mellowed his beliefs.

  82. Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and a newspaper columnist. As such I really don’t see any reason to seek him out. But then, I don’t seek out Cornel West either.

  83. Mellowed his beliefs, bBoy? You sure about that because I’m not.

  84. …while Jones mellowed his beliefs.

    ahh, nope, I don’t think so…

    http://youtu.be/f6xELjQPsuw

    http://youtu.be/a_-vgtYkJdA

    http://youtu.be/TnDxzvc0OXk

  85. Then: Active member of the Communist Party

    Now: Activist not associated with the Communist Party

    Yes, that is a mellowing.

  86. Van Jones should be grateful that the Right Noise Media has been so aggressively pushing him into the limelight.

    As is true with almost every other LibDemon of the week, he was relatively obscure and unknown until Talk Radio/FOX hosts decided to try to make him the latest scary liberal cause celebre.

  87. As the closet capitalist he is I am sure he and his bank account is taking full advantage of it…

  88. From bBoy re Van Jones:

    Then: Active member of the Communist Party

    Now: Activist not associated with the Communist Party

    Yes, that is a mellowing.

    How about

    Then active member of the Communist Party
    Now: activiest not associated with the Communist Party

    That’s politic.

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