Letters to the Editor

Your views in 200 words or less

TACOMA: Protectors or perpetrators?

Letter by Glenn A. Harrell, Tacoma on Oct. 5, 2011 at 1:56 pm with 99 Comments »
October 5, 2011 1:56 pm

On Tuesday, I was sitting right here where I’m typing this letter now, minding my own business, when sounds from my front porch compelled me to investigate. What I found was someone pointing a handgun at me and ordering me to show my hands and proceed towards him slowly.

In a matter of seconds my mind raced from delivery person to someone thinking they were funny to the reality that this was a police officer, and he thought I was a bad guy. Once out on the porch, I was able to prove who I was and things calmed down. He’d been dispatched to my neighborhood on a possible home invasion and, even though my address wasn’t given to him, seeing my screen door open he thought he might be confronting a burglar.

It scares me to think that any number of different reactions on my part could have resulted in my being shot. The officer remarked that next time I should keep my door shut and neither of us will have to be scared.

It’s unsettling to think that the guy with the gun and the authority was scared. I’m the one who had a gun pointed at me in my own house and ordered outside to prove I belonged here.

I admit I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but something’s not right here.

Leave a comment Comments → 99
  1. Shall I ask the question… what if? Lighten up, the cop was doing his job. An open door is enough to arouse the curiousity of a cop looking for a burgler.

  2. KARDNOS says:

    Lucky for you, Glenn, that you are not one of those that answers the door with his gun in his hand. Many on these forums speak of grabbing their gun at the slightest provocation.

  3. What about illegal search and seizure? What the #(@)*(&$ is that cop doing coming up to a residence and pointing a gun because a DOOR was open? What’s he going to do?! Go in with guns a blazing and shoot the occupants first?! A GOOD cop would wait to see if someone was actually robbing the place and WAIT for them to come out! Or here is a perspective… this wasn’t an assault or murder taking place at a specific address! It was a POSSIBLE PROPERTY crime! Also, since WHEN is it a crime to leave a door open?! There is a reason that Sheriff Andy gave Barney only one bullet and it wasn’t kept in his gun! I LOVE how this idiot then turns it around and blames the citizen for leaving his door own open? This cop gives SMART cops a bad name!

  4. alindasue says:

    frosty,

    Sometimes an old screen door just doesn’t latch properly. That should never be the reason for a police officer to approach a house with gun drawn, especially if there had been no complaint of trouble at the residence.

    The ones who need to “lighten up” are the police officers. For some reason, police officers these days have become more and more humorless and less friendly. It used to be, I would instruct my developmentally disabled son to look for a police officer if he got separated from us. After the last few encounters with officers patrolling the street, I’ve stopped doing that.

    One time a couple years ago, my son, who was walking faster than I was, approached an officer patrolling the Tacoma Dome transit center. As I caught up to my son, the officer started shouting at him to get back – which, of course, confused my son. The real scary part of the situation was that the officer had his hand raised next to his gun holster. Had I not been there to lead my son away, who knows what would have happened.

    Somehow, despite the fact that the transit center was quiet and nothing was happening, that officer considered an obviously disabled child in a young man’s body approaching him saying “hi. who are you?” as enough of a threat that he needed to have his gun hand at ready…

    My son was just confused. I had the wits scared out of me.

    What they really need to do is send these officers back to training to teach them how to deal with real people in the public.

  5. itwasntmethistime says:

    One thing we can take from this is that Mr. Harrell’s calm demeanor effectively diffused the situation. It was a misunderstanding that could have easily turned into a tragedy if Mr. Harrell had been defiant or belligerent. Thank you, Mr. Harrell, for keeping your head during this terrifying mistake.

  6. SwordofPerseus says:

    Welcome to the Police state, the Fascist States of America. I realize cops have a tough job, but it is much tougher if you are stupid and paranoid and poorly trained. I remember when cops had a badge, cuffs and a revolver. They are looking more and more like Imperial Storm Troopers every year. This is a disturbing change, I for one find myself agreeing with alindasue, the cops are becoming much less humorous and much more dis-likeable. Sad to see that it seems since 9-11 our country has been diminished little by little, until we don’t have a US any more. We are giving up all that we seek to save; freedom, liberty, and mostly justice.

  7. Yeah, stupid cops.

    It used to be they could sit in a coffee shop finishing reports before their shift without getting shot. How dare they be on the defensive. It’s not like anybody is out to kill them or anything.

    Also, why is it that KARDNOS always complains when somebody says something without backing up their claim, but he does it more than anybody? Or have we just given up on asking that question? The evidence is replete. I should not have to go back and give evidence for that. Just look back on a few posts.

  8. alindasue says:

    Sabre16,
    I have no problem with police officers dressing as “storm troopers” (as one person put it) for protection, nor do I object to them carrying a gun. However, I draw the line at a police officer threatening an obviously disabled young adult in a Santa hat armed with nothing but a scribble pad and a pen.

    The police officer described in the letter, who threatened first THEN bothered to see if there was a crime actually occurring at a home he had not been called to, also crossed that line.

    I don’t dislike policemen at all, but it bothers me that I can no longer feel 100% safe recommending that my kids seek a police officer for help when there is a problem.

  9. harleyrider1 says:

    If – IF – it was as simple and exactly as you described it, please write or call the Chief of Police. This person needs to be re-trained or let go. The Police Department does not want officers that simply walk up to an open residential door, point a handgun at the occupant, and chastise them. Nor do they want officers that are “scared” in the most mundane circumstances.

    Citizens expect more and the Tacoma Police meet those expectations.

    This sounds bogus on its face.

  10. frankiethomas says:

    Gee Mr. harnell, aren’t you lucky that was the cop, who knocked, and not the home invader,who wouldn’t have bothered to?

  11. duke_of_hurl says:

    all you need to say is “wrong house officer” and go in and close the door and lock it..but whatever you do. dont let your dog out or go outside armed..a fenced yard and good window views are a plus..good thing you werent the victim of a home invasion

  12. With all due respect frankie… what’s the difference? He still had a gun pointed at him in his own home and he still had to diffuse the situation from essentially a “jerk” with a gun.

  13. beerBoy says:

    frankie – sorry, but that is a false equivalence there.

    There was no home invader. There was a cop who blamed the home owner for having his door open.

  14. Objective says:

    If you all really want to see what the city of Tacoma is looking for in a police officer. Check out the link below under the “Employment” section.

    http://www.cityoftacoma.org/Page.aspx?hid=1907

  15. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Sabre16 says:

    … why is it that KARDNOS always complains when somebody says something without backing up their claim, but he does it more than anybody?

    Careful, Sabre, wouldn’t want Kardy to notice his straw is showing… again. This kind of talk could force him to go missing for… at least two hours while searching for a citation.

    Then where would we be?

  16. “There was no home invader. There was a cop who blamed the home owner for having his door open.”

    However there was a reported home invader in the neighborhood.

    While I understand Glenn’s anger, if the door hadn’t been open, the cop wouldn’t have thought anything was unusual and stopped.

    The only thing I would suggest to the police department would be for the officer to wait until backup arrived. I would think that would help reduce the fear factor and the tendency to point a gun.

  17. xx98411 says:

    before we go too far off the rails can we get some facts straight…

    “…He’d been dispatched to my neighborhood on a possible home invasion and, even though my address wasn’t given to him, seeing my screen door open he thought he might be confronting a burglar.”

    The screen door was open, their is no mention of the front door. Now, if the writer cares to clarify the status of the front door that would be helpful as it does make a diiference in the behavior of the Police Officer.

    From what I read the screen door was open, the front door was closed (I acknowledge no mention but a resonable interpretation of the letter, NW weather, and NW habits, etc…)

    just my two cents… back to the peanut gallery…

  18. KARDNOS says:

    Sabre and Vox….are you both denying that people on these threads have claimed to answer their door with gun in hand?????????

    Oh….this is rich!! I can’t wait for the next 2nd Amendment forum when your guard is down. I may pull a LarryFine and copy/save your comments from this thread….LOL

  19. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    beerBoy says:

    frankie – sorry, but that is a false equivalence there.

    There was no home invader.

    And you know this how, bB?

    The officer was responding to a home invasion call. Without investigating, he, Mr. Harrel and, least of all, you could not say with any degree of certainty that ”there was no home invader” – and surly not in the heat of the incident Mr. Harrel describes.

    Hind-sight is 20/ 20, but Monday morning quarterbacking a police action is pretty lame. We can argue police tactics/ training, but there is no way you can state with certainty ”there was no home invader”.

    Admit it, frankiethomas’ makes a great point. You’ll need to find a more appropriate and relevant topic on which to drag out your new ”false equivalence” fallacy toy.

  20. KARDNOS says:

    Then…for a general comment…not particular to THIS forum….

    ” advertisement

    ShareThis
    Posted: 03/24/2011

    DETROIT (WXYZ) – Detroit police shot an 86-year-old man in his home in what is being called an unfortunate accident.

    When police arrived at the house they intended to arrest the homeowner’s grandson for assault with intent to murder. “The assault warrant was relative to shots fired against Detroit Police officers ironically,” said Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee.

    Godbee says 86-year-old Charles Griggs came to the door with a gun and that’s when officers fired two or three shots.”

    Read more: http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/detroit-police-shoot-elderly-man-when-he-answers-the-door-holding-a-gun#ixzz1a0yVGYmF

    They go into denial mode without even taking 30 seconds to look….

  21. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    … Vox….are you both denying that people on these threads have claimed to answer their door with gun in hand?????????

    Can’t speak for saber but, for the sake of argument, let’s just say yes for me.

    So prove us wrong or stuff a little more straw down your blouse.

  22. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Uhhm, Kardy, the qualifier was ”THESE threads” – your words. You set the criteria, newspaper articles do not apply.

    Take your time – you still have over an hour.

  23. xx98411 says:

    karnos – one incident does not a trend make…

    ps – please don’t looking for a second incident and that also does not a trend make…

  24. xx98411 says:

    karnos – trying to change and/or avoid the subject again…

    was the police officer justified coming to the front door of a home with a weapon drawn?

    just curious about what you actually think…

  25. Frida, I don’t know who you were referring to when you said ” you love how this “idiot” turned it around and blamed the home owner”. You as with all other hand-wringing liberals are the first to blame the cops when things get ugly. But this is not the days of Sheriff Andy and Barney, If you haven’t noticed, violence against police officers are at an all time high. You and your ilk demand that cops walk around and give everyone a hug and a piece of candy. They have a job to do, a very dangerous job and if that cop would have followed your advice and “waited until the perp came out”, you would be shouting from the roof tops how this cop failed to do his job and stood by while a citizen was being robbed or worse. So save your crocodile tears and hope that you never need a cop to come to your home and save you from a deranged murderer and stands outside “waiting” for him to finish you off.

  26. beerBoy says:

    And you know this how, bB?

    Because there were none in the incidents report.

    The cop blamed the homeowner for having his door open. Since when is that probable cause?

    Look, the cop, responding to a POSSIBLE home invasion was correct in investigating with extreme caution. But, to suggest that the home owner was somehow deserving of being scared by be disturbed in his own home by an officer with his gun drawn because his screen door was open is completely bizarre.

  27. commoncents says:

    I really enjoy how people label this as a liberal/conservative issue. On many other threads people would classify me as a liberal and make snide little comments. However, I can see exactly how this issue came to pass and while the police officer may not have handled it with the utmost level of class and decorum – i don’t expect him to. After all, the reason he was in the neighborhood was to investigate a possible home invasion. That means open doors, open screens adn closed doors, and broken windows are all possible indicators…he investigated and didn’t find and then made a passing comment as to why he approached the house. Give the explanation and move on to see if perhaps the report was valid and he was simply at the wrong house. It was certainly not the time to apologize profusely and sit down with the homeowner over tea and crumpets. Not a liberal and not a conservative issue…

  28. beerBoy says:

    word not completed. Should read:

    “…being scared by being disturbed…”

  29. KARDNOS says:

    xx….change the subject? Nope….broaden the vision….something you seek to narrow.

    Police can draw weapons whenever they damned well want. I know. I had one drawn on me, in a small town where everyone knew everyone. Barney…er uh….Eugene was well known for being a little “fast on the draw”….and still got to be a police officer.

    Meanwhile, I note that many of the people that support the police rights to this action, are the same types that….in a 2nd Amendment conversation….would talk about carrying a weapon to their front door. This story might not have made it to the LTE column if the letter writer were one of “those”.

    Look at the glass….it’s half full, not half empty. (I don’t expect you to understand)

  30. KARDNOS says:

    “You and your ilk demand that cops walk around and give everyone a hug and a piece of candy.”

    No hyperbole there.

  31. xx98411 says:

    karnos – you are making unfounded assumption, facts not in evidence. This is not a gun rights issue, this is a case of the police and their role and conduct in law enforcement.

    The police officer appears to have properly stood outside the door and ordered the occupant to come outside where jurisdiction is clearer and absolute. The facts are the homeonwer was not armed.

  32. KARDNOS says:

    xx98411 says:
    October 6, 2011 at 9:06 am
    karnos – you are making unfounded assumption, facts not in evidence.”

    Unfounded?????? Try reading the story from Detroit.

    Again….I’m looking outside the boundries of your narrow mind. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law….LOL

  33. KARDNOS says:

    xx….if you want to make this discussion based on facts only….

    You might want to talk with frosty about the “piece of candy” statement. I doubt that he has support data for that one…..LOL

  34. scooter6139 says:

    There are a lot of gaps in this story that would help alleviate some of the angst. From the letter, we know a few things: there was a possible home invasion somewhere, a police officer was sent to investigate and the letter writers screen door was open. We don’t know the other details, like was the main door closed, did the officer call out and such.

    Without these facts I cannot fault the officer for doing his job as trained. Possible home invasion with unknown persons, an officer will assume they are armed until proven otherwise. Driving into a neighborhood, an officer see an open screen door which looks out of place, especially assuming a possible home invasion call. Investigating he comes across an unknown person in the home. To protect himself and others he confronts unknown person with pistol drawn and seeks identifying information. With proven identification the situation is settled easily.

    For those, like myself, who own firearms, imagine the outcome if we came to the door armed.

  35. KARDNOS says:

    Thanks for your honesty, scooter……

  36. xx98411 says:

    karnos – Detroit is a seperate issue, story, circumstances, etc… not even close to this story.

    as scooter has pointed out, their are alot of gaps in the story and as a discussion forum we all need to base our statements on the story presented as best as possible.

    As a discussion forum I am challenging you on your broad assumtion that is, considering the facts an unnecessary broad unfounded assumption based on prejudice and bias.

  37. KARDNOS says:

    xx….and I’m challenging you to apply the same forum control issues to frosty…..unless you have some support data up your…uh…sleeve that shows how many “liberals” want police to hand out candy in lieu of protecting the public…

    Now, of course, you could be a hypocrite and ignore the silliness of your fellow conservative while chiding a “liberal” for a sidebar issue….

  38. KARDNOS says:

    “For those, like myself, who own firearms, imagine the outcome if we came to the door armed.”

    Assumption closed. Local firearm owner who admits the possibility.

  39. xx98411 says:

    “Many on these forums speak of grabbing their gun at the slightest provocation.

    one – “many” a llittle much don’t ya think?

    two – this is the issue, slightest provocation… unnecessary.

    Because it is possible doesn’t make it a trend or common course of action

  40. xx98411 says:

    no forum control, just a simple discussion

    frosty is acutally support the police officer though some may have issue with his presentation

    I have no “fellow conservatives”, I am not part of a tribe here or anywhere. I have been know to generalize… yep, I am being an a-hole and pushing back on the “discussion”. I can also read the “fellow conservative” as a smug attempt to be one b-hole yourself.

    Frosty can explain for himself his candy comment.

  41. KARDNOS says:

    “yep, I am being an a-hole”

    Finally….a smidgeon of truth….

    As to your 9:42 am comment….provide proof that my statement isn’t 100% correct.

  42. KARDNOS says:

    Before LF enters and whines about the “thread drift”…..I’ll stand pat on my last statement.

  43. “As to your 9:42 am comment….provide proof that my statement isn’t 100% correct.”

    A BS, I got a life and not enough time to prove a statement that was so general in nature that it is unprovable one way nor another.

    I may not take the time to prove it wrong, but you sures to heck won’t take the time to prove it “100% correct”

    It’s a typical discussion board BS statement to keep the conversation lively.

  44. itwasntmethistime says:

    I still don’t see how the cop did anything wrong. He was looking for a burglar and noticed an open screen door, then pulled his gun when an unknown man came out on the porch he was standing on, checking out that open screen door. The homeowner identified himself and the cop put his gun away. What’s the problem?

  45. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    bB, did you not just recently accuse me of nit-picking?

    Truly, your argument is so off-base as to be a pristine example of nit-picking. No one at the scene knew whether or not a home invader was in the neighborhood, but somehow you do? Do you have a second job?

    And pleas, everyone knows the incident report was filed after the fact.

  46. KARDNOS, so you have a problem with my comment about candy? Let’s use this wasted human debris in the “Occupy Wall Street” movement as examples of how the lefties abuse the good will of the police. Over a thousand of these idiots have been arrested thus far for various crimes. They lay down on the ground and cause the cops to have to drag their filthy butts to a paddy wagon. Hopefully the cops are wearing protective gear so as to not contaminate themselves with the filth emanating from these freaks. Then up pops the liberal media with camera at the ready to document how those nasty cops are ‘mistreating” the scumbags. Police brutality ! say’s the likes of “brutha Al Sharpton, one of the more intelligent of the MSNBC crew.

  47. When Maurice Clemmons got his justice on the streets of Seattle by a very alert and skillful cop, I didn’t hear any complaints about how proactive that cop was. He was sitting in his patrol car, at night and saw a figure approaching the rear of the car. He got out of his car, gun in hand, told the approaching individual to identify himself and to take his hand out of his pocket. Clemmons then came up with a weopon and the cop fired and killed him. Now, using the liberal’s slant on this, that cop would have just shrugged it off, remained seated in his car, and would be in the city morgue in just a few minutes. Good for him and good for any cop who uses precautions to protect themselves and the public at large.

  48. BlaineCGarver says:

    With home invasion robberies/murders on the swift uptick, anyone coming in my door uninvited with a gun and/or acting violent will be held at gunpoint. Cops should know better than to breech a man’s domain. I’m not even in favor of legal violent entry with a warrent; no body wins and a good cop might die or live with his causing another’s death. Self defense in a God given right and an instinct.

  49. beerBoy says:

    funny how the folks who complain about KARDNOS don’t seem to be bothered at all by frosty…..

  50. itwasntmethistime says:

    Maybe you men should take a lesson from us women on this one. We’re usually a little more cautious because we are more vulnerable than men. If there is a noise on my porch I simply look out the window before I open the door. It’s not as exciting as storming the intruder with both barrells blasting, but it works really well for identifying who is on my porch.

  51. hansgruber says:

    Oh Glen,

    I am so sorry the police responded to your neighborhood when a home invasion robbery was called in and that the police shot you and handcuffed you and did not believe a word you said……wait…no that didn’t happen and had you been the victim of a home invasion robbery and police did not check out an open door in your neighborhood, I’d bet this letter would read very different.

    You were not shot, not cuffed,the office listened and when you verified who you were the police apologized. Nothing wrong here except you forgot to thank him for coming and protecting you neighborhood.

    Sure you got a gun pointed at you. Better by the police than a home invasion robber.

    Glen, you should be glad that men & women are out there willing to answer the publics calls for help in dangerous situations and they have the trainging not to shoot first and ask questions later. You should go find that officer and buy him/her a cup of coffee.

  52. alindasue says:

    hansgruber said, “…no that didn’t happen and had you been the victim of a home invasion robbery and police did not check out an open door in your neighborhood…”

    Unless the actual door (not the screen door) showed signs of having been forced open (such as obviously broken or hanging funny on its hinges), there is no reason to suspect a robbery just because a door is open… especially if the main door is closed and only the screen door is open.

    The only way a robber could break into a home simply by opening the door is if the door is left unlocked. Then a police officer responding after a robbery after the fact might be justified in berating a homeowner for not securing his premises.

    However, lacking REAL evidence of a crime in progress or a call for help at that residence, a police officer has no business approaching a home with guns drawn.

  53. KARDNOS says:

    Uh…question….if a home invasion was called in….wouldn’t the police have the correct address?

  54. KARDNOS says:

    Is “possible home invasion” going to be the new “license plate light is out”?

  55. KARDNOS says:

    Hey…frosty….why was Clemmons out in public in the first place?

    Tell us about the “liberal” behind that stroke of brilliance…..

  56. KARDNOS says:

    “BlaineCGarver says:
    October 6, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    With home invasion robberies/murders on the swift uptick, anyone coming in my door uninvited with a gun and/or acting violent will be held at gunpoint. Cops should know better than to breech a man’s domain. ”

    “KARDNOS says:
    October 5, 2011 at 6:11 pm
    Many on these forums speak of grabbing their gun at the slightest provocation.”

    Sometimes….it’s just not fun to win…..It’s too easy…..

  57. BlaineCGarver says:

    Yes, Kard, you old Brown Shirt Gubment lover….I protect myself…anyone with half a “set” does, as well…they rest of you sheep get led to slaughter.

  58. xx98411 says:

    “funny how the folks who complain about KARDNOS don’t seem to be bothered at all by frosty….. “

    I could go the mature way and ask in a grown up voice…

    screw it… let’s play bb

    what did frosty say… what verbal injustice occured that causes you to defend our fair and balanced amigo karnos… ANNNNND

    what specifically did frosty say that is so offensive, disagreeable, unfair, hypocritical, whatever he saidable?

  59. xx98411 says:

    karnos did you read what Blaine said…

    He specifically set reasonable and rational criteria for a person to defend his home. In case you missed it, he said

    * Home invasions robberies and murders on on the rise
    * Coming into a man’s home uninvited
    * Coming into a man’s home in a violent manner
    * Cops do have policies that prevent them from breaching a man’s home
    * Self defense is an inherent right as a human being
    * Self defense is an instinctual action (exceptions being lliberals) ;)

    What would it take for you to actively defend your home, your spouse, your children?

  60. beerboy, what’s up? Are you p.o.’d because nobody (other than the typical liberals) are taking me to task? You remind me of the sibling who pulls her brother’s hair and then runs to mommy and say’s “mommy, he’s picking on me”.

  61. KARNAL, what’s your point about why Clemmons was out on the street? Are you attempting in your usual clumsy way of saying that Clemmons was not responsible for murdering four police officers because someone screwed up and let him out of jail? My point was clear. The cop in Seattle didn’t wait to be shot at first, he did what any trained cop would do, he took control of the situation before the situation could take control of him. The same policy applies to the Tacoma cop. Who among you lefties would just walk up to a possible home invasion with your hands in your pocket?

  62. itwasntmethistime says:

    KARD — Yes, the police should have the correct address, but there is always a chance the robber had finished up at one house and moved on to the next.

    I didn’t read that the cop approached the house with his gun drawn, but that he drew it when the man came out the front door.

  63. KARDNOS says:

    itwas……sort of an invasion robbery route???? I think not.

  64. KARDNOS says:

    “frosty says:
    October 6, 2011 at 3:36 pm
    KARNAL, what’s your point about why Clemmons was out on the street? Are you attempting in your usual clumsy way of saying that Clemmons was not responsible for murdering four police officers because someone screwed up and let him out of jail?”

    No…frosty…I’m saying a Conservative let him out of prison and therefore placed him in a position to do wrong….AGAIN. If he was still in prison in ARKANSAS…..he would not have killed any police in Tacoma.

    Maybe the FOX TV star should stick to country/western music…….Doesn’t he look alot like Gomer Pyle?????

  65. xx98411 says:

    karnos – does Clemmons bear any responsibilty at all for the murder of four Lakewood Police officers?

    Does any governor that paroles a felon bear criminal responsiblity because they followed an established process for the release of felons to parole status and it is possible that these felons may be “placed (him) in a position to do wrong”?

    By your logic – if he was still in prison – should all persons convicted of a crime spend the rest of their lives in prison so as to prevent any possible recurrence of a crime?

  66. KARDNOS says:

    STUPID QUESTION OF THE DAY:

    “does Clemmons bear any responsibilty at all for the murder of four Lakewood Police officers?

    Uh…who pulled the trigger? Nope…not Roy Roger’s horse…..

    Now…..to the rest of your assessment….I’m guessing you don’t agree with Rick Perry’s record……

  67. KARDNOS says:

    Oh…frosty…..

    I know this is off topic…but….

    Herman Cain, in a live interview with Lawrence O’Donnell, said “I made myself available for the draft and I wasn’t drafted”

    So…that makes him a draft dodger……RIGHT?????????

  68. theglovesRoff says:

    Karnitos

    Didn’t your beloved WA state governor sign some legislation that allowed Clemmons to be released from jail, or not be held in jail, on a technicality in WA state?

    And bB defending karnitos is so…..cute….. Since they are one and the same (figuratively), but one is more subtle than the other.

  69. xx98411 says:

    cant give a straight answer can you…?

    karnos – you can’t have it both ways… imply, or however your twisted mind sees it, a Governor bearing some responsibility for ???

    …let him out of prison and therefore placed him in a position to do wrong….

    sick logic man, sick…

  70. KARNAL, that’s some fancy foot work there. Changing the subject from “alleged” police misconduct to Herman Cain not serving in the military. I also watched Lawrence O’Donnell make a fool of himself as he and his co-maggots regularly do on MSNBC. If you paid close attention in between your tokes, you would have heard Cain answer that he was a Navy civilian emploee working on a weopons system for the Navy during that period of time. So he was in fact working for the defense of this coutry. He also said that the draft board said he should remain at the Navy Department to continue his work rather than go into the Navy. I was hoping that he work ask that worm O’Donnell if he served in the military, but Cain has more class than that. While we’re on the subject KARNAL, what’s your excuse again? You brought it up.

  71. KARDNOS says:

    Uh…..Cain made himself available for the draft and wasn’t drafted……He’s a dodger…

    I thought the really funny part of Cain was telling Lawrence that his calculations were wrong…..why???…..because Cain said so…that’s why!!!!

    Oh and frosty…I didn’t say the police misbehaved…..you ASSUMED that…..

    It’s the CONservative in you…..

  72. KARDNOS says:

    Hey…Roff….how about citing said “legislation”……?

    That question alone will probably shut you up like Cirrus did yesterday…

  73. KARDNOS says:

    Since O’Donnell was born in 1951…like me….he probably made himself available for the draft and wasn’t drafted either…just like me and Cain….

    unlike Dick Cheney…..

  74. KARDNOS says:

    Uh…lets see….

    “OLYMPIA — Gov. Chris Gregoire and several law-enforcement groups said Wednesday they support the idea of a state constitutional amendment that would give judges more leeway to deny bail”

    Nope…that wouldn’t be it…

    “The bottom line is we owe it to our law enforcement personnel to do everything we can to make sure they’re safe and secure out there,” Gregoire said in a phone interview with The Associated Press.”

    Nope…that doesn’t look like it….

    “Washington governor Chris Gregoire is already no Huckabee. She has granted just 26 clemency requests out of the 215 she has received in her nearly five years in office. That’s according to a records review her office was already busy conducting yesterday when Seattle Weekly called for the figures. Compare that to the more than 1,000 petitions Huckabee said yes to during his 10 years as governor.”

    Hmmmmm……. that CAN’T be it…..

  75. KARDNOS says:

    To “xx”…..

    The primary reason why I didn’t comment directly on the police action is that it makes no difference what a liberal says. The Conservatives hear it (read it) the way they want anyway.

    LMAO

  76. xx98411 says:

    no karnos I hear you fine…

    between your quips and by stating your opinion as “present” for any issue or direct question, you make it easy for yourself to defend your positions.

    it is real easy to tell someone they are wrong…

    it is real hard to educate and inform someone on why you are right, what you stand for, what you believe, why you believe it…

  77. PumainTacoma says:

    Frunz v City of Tacoma read it

    Where the 9 th circuit gave punitive damages to homeowner invaded bu tacoma cops the judge state it was a shock of injustice by tacoma

  78. PumainTacoma says:

    In short, we must ask:  Why is this case here?   There may have been some justification for going to trial because there were disputed questions of fact about how the officers behaved during the course of the intrusion into Frunz’s house.   But a jury made up of seven members of the community heard the evidence and unanimously ruled in Frunz’s favor.   By not only finding defendants liable, but also imposing punitive damages, the jury determined that the officers acted in reckless or malicious disregard of plaintiff’s constitutional rights.   Only the most misguided optimism would cause defendants, and those who are paying for their defense, to appeal the verdict under these circumstances.   Surely, the citizens of Tacoma would not want to be treated in their own homes the way the jury found officers Stril, Morris and Alred treated Frunz and her guests.   A prompt payment of the verdict, accompanied by a letter of apology from the city fathers and mothers, might have been a more appropriate response to the jury’s collective wisdom.10

  79. KARDNOS says:

    “it is real easy to tell someone they are wrong…”

    Yeah….we got a sample of that by “Herb” Cain last night. When O’Donnell said “some have said your “9-9-9″ math will only create half the revenue” Cain replied “you’re wrong”.

  80. KARNAL, ” since O’Donnell was born in 1951..like me, he probably made himself available for the draft ..and wasn’t drafted either.. just like me and Cain”. Oh, I see. The draft board told you and O’Donnell that since you were already working on a defense related project for the military, you were exempted from serving, just like Cain, right? But I seem to remember you saying that your number never came up KARNAL. Secondly, again if you were listening, Cain explained his “9-9-9″ math to the point that O’Donnell was left with his jaw dropping and decided to move on to something else. Maybe you should re-wind that segment and listen again.

  81. BTW, did you leave a forwarding address for your mail when you fled to Canada? Maybe you were sent a draft notice and never received it.

  82. Great reply Hans.
    Cop haters like Glenn will never admit they hate cops, unless there’s not one around when they need one. He also sounds like he’s kind of a pussy.

  83. xx98411 says:

    “your wrong…” and pretty much places his sausgae on the table… in O’Donnell’s house at that… and proceeds to edumacate the socialist… quite the show there.

  84. xx98411 says:

    On that note and since we are going off the rails…

    I would love to see Cain vs Obama…

    It would be a battle between the workin’ man and the blame everybody else man…

    … a battle between common sense and ideology…

    …a battle between the plain talker and the telepromtin’ pontificator…

    …a battle between da’ field negro and the house negro.

    Coming to a great country near you… November 2012

  85. Cain’s quote…..”I made myself available to the draft and I wasn’t drafted”

    Frosty has gotten caught up in Cain’s rhetoric, as opposed to his truthful statement. First, Cain tried to convince O’Donnell that he got special treatment from the draft board because of civilian service (I quit laughing about an hour later)….THEN…Cain fessed up about the draft lottery.

    Frankly, I don’t know what he was trying to hide. There is nothing wrong with being a lottery participant. At least he didn’t file for five deferments as our previous Vice President did…..who “had better things to do”

    Now….Cain graduated in 1963, thus remained “unavailable for service” until the first draft lottery…. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_lottery_(1969)

    Hmmm….maybe there were a few deferments……

  86. who “their” sayed “your wrong”?

    I, too, would love to see Cain versus Obama.

    Cain can explain how the “job creator” (remember, people want jobs) is responsible for closing 50% of the Godfather’s Pizza chain.

    “Cain explained his “9-9-9″ math to the point that O’Donnell was left with his jaw dropping and decided to move on to something else.”

    Again…frosty didn’t watch the entire segment…. Cain’s answer was “we researched this and you are wrong”. Now, the funny part is that O’Donnell said “others have said”……so is O’Donnell wrong in claiming “others have said”? Cain was so busy trying to cover his butt that he called O’Donnell a liar for simply saying that he had heard other people say 9-9-9- wouldn’t raise enough revenue.

    frosty followed Cain’s pattern…..LOL

  87. “a battle between common sense and ideology”

    Don’t be so hard on Cain.

  88. “Tax policy experts say Cain’s plan is unrealistic because it presumes that no deductions and exemptions will be permitted, no matter how popular.

    “Either Herman Cain is the tax messiah or is proposing a system that has no correspondence to real-world tax systems,” said Edward Kleinbard, a former chief of staff to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation. “In practice, it will have the same economic effect as a 27 percent uncapped payroll tax.”

    Kleinbard is now a professor at the University of Southern California’s Gould School of Law.

    Speaking on radio host Don Imus’s program yesterday, Cain said the 9-9-9 proposal would be revenue-neutral, meaning it would generate as much revenue as the U.S. collects now.

    “We calculated based upon initially no growth, just replicate the amount of revenue we’re already bringing in,” he said.

    Cain’s campaign hasn’t produced specific revenue estimates for its proposal and didn’t respond to requests for comment yesterday.”

    ahem…….Business Week…..a “socialist” publication

  89. theglovesRoff says:

    I see Karnitos didn’t bother including dates or sources with his cherry picked quotes.

    I think xx nailed you perfectly with this.

    between your quips and by stating your opinion as “present” for any issue or direct question, you make it easy for yourself to defend your positions.

    it is real easy to tell someone they are wrong…

    it is real hard to educate and inform someone on why you are right, what you stand for, what you believe, why you believe it…

  90. Cain told O’Donnell during the interview that his “9-9-9 program would not significantly raise taxes on the working poor for the following reason, they are already paying 15% on their payroll taxes, his program would reduce that to 9%, they would also pay 9% sales tax, thus a meager 3% increase. So they may have to cut down on the trips to McDonalds and video rental store. Lastly, I wish Cain would have told O’Donnell “Lawrence, there’s really only one thing that I would like to do, that is to reach through this camera, grab you by your scrawny neck and strangle you to death’.

  91. beerBoy says:

    Yep….Herman Cain sure knows how to connect with the Middle and Working Class:

    “Don’t blame Wall Street, don’t blame the big banks, if you don’t have a job and you’re not rich, blame yourself!” Cain said. “It is not a person’s fault because they succeeded, it is a person’s fault if they failed. And so this is why I don’t understand these demonstrations and what is it that they’re looking for.”

    If you don’t have a job, don’t blame the Corporation that laid you off in the face of record profits, don’t blame the Government policies that actually reward the Corporation for sending US jobs overseas, don’t blame the Banks that have tightened credits so they could give themselves massive bonuses with the bali-out monies – blame yourself!

  92. KARDNOS says:

    “theglovesRoff says:
    October 7, 2011 at 5:33 pm
    I see Karnitos didn’t bother including dates or sources with his cherry picked quotes.”

    The “souce” was Business Week…but you are reading impaired….

    The date…..in the last 48 hours…..LMAO

  93. KARDNOS says:

    frosty says:
    October 7, 2011 at 9:07 pm
    Cain told O’Donnell during the interview that his “9-9-9 program would not significantly raise taxes on the working poor for the following reason, they are already paying 15% on their payroll taxes, his program would reduce that to 9%, they would also pay 9% sales tax, thus a meager 3% increase.”

    And O’Donnell could only smile at the folly. Cain talks in one breath about no deductions….9 percent flat tax…and then compares it to a system where the working poor pay a net of about 3% due to deductions……

    And Cain wonders why we don’t trust his math…..LOL. Don’t send him to the store for apples….you’ll get oranges

  94. KARNAL, stealing a line from the lefties, if you don’t like Cain, you must be a homo-phobe racist. Why not pick on Perry or one of the white candidates? How’s it feel ?

  95. …a battle between da’ field negro and the house negro.

    Nope……both of them are clearly members of the masters’ mansion staff – helping figure out ways of getting even more work out of the field slaves with less overhead.

    Unless you can put forward how you think that either one of them has any significant resemblance to Malcom X………

  96. frosty – are you claiming that Cain is homosexual?

  97. t would be a battle between the workin’ man and the blame everybody else man…

    Now I get it! Critiques of CEO’s exorbitant s are labeled “class warfare” because CEOs are considered part of the working class.

  98. should read

    Now I get it! Critiques of CEOs’ exorbitant compensation packagess are labeled “class warfare” because CEOs are considered part of the working class.

  99. just havin’ a little fun but OK, if thats the way you wanna roll…

    my money will be on Cain

    and

    only in your world bb, only in your world…

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