Letters to the Editor

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FOURTH: Why did so few fly the flag?

Letter by Jerry P. Alvey, Spanaway on July 8, 2011 at 1:20 pm with 177 Comments »
July 8, 2011 1:39 pm

While I was walking my dog Patches on the Fourth of July, I ended up ashamed of our citizenry.

We had to pass at least 80 homes in 30 minutes of walking. I counted only five homes flying Old Glory – and two of those were my home and my neighbor’s.

That’s pretty crummy considering we have many young, true patriots under fire in distant places, fighting to ensure our freedom.

Leave a comment Comments → 177
  1. Omega6234 says:

    I flew two of them…. then went out and let off some bottle rockets, in North Tacoma!!!

  2. Are you more ashamed of our citizenry for not flying the flag as much as you’d like, or for not protesting our foolish wars of choice that make us less safe, that cost us 12 billion dollars per month? Just curious. BTW we fly the flag. Support our troops in a real way by demanding they all come home.

  3. sue1234 says:

    Fascism likes huge displays of national symbols.
    People fly the flag when they feel proud of their country. Many Americans are unhappy with the government.
    61% blame the Republicans for the recession and 92% blame the Republicans for the economic crisis.
    People have no jobs and the Republicans obstruct and vote for the rich.
    Americans just dont feel proud of America nowadays… and the smart people we know why.
    I fly a flag. In fact, my flag flew upside down, thru the entire Bush presidency, like any good American.

  4. Yes we have many young patriots over in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they are not protecting our freedom as you say- the mission is not only abusing their service, its left them over there while things deteriorate at home and its costing us billions. Then when they come home, there are no services for them … or excuse me… entitlements and they are discarded. Many end up being homeless. So its more important to demand our troops come home and to take care of them when they come back. I don’t fly a flag, but I vote and I volunteer, and I call my congresspeople and I get involved. I don’t need to show off a flag to prove I’m an American to anybody. I actually do something for my country besides sporting a flag.

  5. klondiko says:

    I’m surprised more people aren’t flying the flag upside down. It’s a sign of a country in distress.

  6. Frida: ” I don’t fly a flag, but I vote and I volunteer, and I call my congresspeople and I get involved. I don’t need to show off a flag to prove I’m an American to anybody. I actually do something for my country besides sporting a flag.”
    Excellent, well done and said.

  7. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Incredible how the left made this a partisan issue.

    You are all sick. Sue, you should be arrested for flying the flag upsidedown.

    You should be ashamed. Please move to a country you feel is better than America.

  8. the3rdpigshouse says:

    Remeber Jerry – you live in the Sopcialist State of Washington where anti-American socialist democrats reside!

  9. Roncella says:

    The3rdPigs, Your so right about Washington State being the Massachusetts of the west coast. The libs and dems. have almost ruined this once Great State as a very good place to live in.

    We really need to clean house this 2012 election cycle.

  10. beerBoy says:

    you should be arrested for flying the flag upsidedown.

    So much for the 1st Amendment…..

  11. Tummler says:

    People should hold memorials on Independence Day, not celebrations.

  12. the3rdpigshouse says:

    Sue – I thought of flying the flag upside down when the ignorant electorate put the marxist/socialist “OH-Bummer” in office but, I opted for not flying it at all on the day he was sworn into office! The upsidedown flag, depicting a tragedy, should have been flown over the U.S. Capitol!!!

  13. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Sue disgraces the men and women who gave her the right to fly the flag upside.

    “a.The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.”

    Americans just dont feel proud of America nowadays- No, I am very proud. It is the Dems who have no pride, only hatred.

  14. Sue is another version of the resident troll. Pay it no attention.

  15. aislander says:

    See, we are prevented from using social pressure to enforce societal norms–something the lefties have done to prevent having the crap beat out of them for doing such things as flying the flag upside down as political protest. But I don’t think they should be arrested for it. Do you have to sell a house to a lefty, or do you have some choice in the matter? What about hiring one?

  16. Dave98373 says:

    Pretty sad when some people cannot enjoy a national holiday without trying to provoke some political debate. Some people here truly must be miserable to be around…I fell sorry for the people that they live with.

  17. I dont fly a flag for one reason….in this crummy town, it wouldn’t take five minutes before some dirt bag STOLE it!……

    but what I CAN do is put that old “Nixon/Agnew ’72” bumper sticker on my car and drive around just to get “sue1234″ PO’d!

    HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! :D

  18. ItalianSpring says:

    Ask the britts why they don’t fly the British flag in their own country. It will all become clear to you.

  19. KARDNOS says:

    concernedtacoma7 says:
    No, I am very proud. It is the Dems who have no pride, only hatred.

    concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 8, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    Incredible how the left made this a partisan issue

    Is this Irony day?

  20. KARDNOS says:

    Tea Party Patriots raise flags upside down in Syracuse

    Published: Saturday, July 04, 2009, 1:11 PM Updated: Saturday, July 04, 2009, 6:11 PM
    By Michelle Breidenbach / The Post-Standard The Post-Standard

    Syracuse, NY – About 200 people rallied outside the federal building in Syracuse Saturday to protest big government, high taxes, bailouts, the cap-and-trade energy bill, President Barack Obama’s plan to expand government health care programs and more.

    One speaker described the event as a fact-based protest, “not an emotional rah-rah thing.”

    rut roh………watch the backpeddling begin…….LMAO

  21. KARDNOS says:

    “sage1 says:
    July 8, 2011 at 9:11 pm
    Sue is another version of the resident troll. Pay it no attention.

    We’re still waiting for Staged1 to post a comment that contributes to the subject of a letter, as opposed to harassing others.

  22. KARDNOS says:

    “aislander says:
    July 8, 2011 at 10:25 pm
    Do you have to sell a house to a lefty, or do you have some choice in the matter? What about hiring one?”

    Didn’t someone say similar things about blacks, Jews, Catholics, etc?

    I like the “hiring one” best – as if the 50% of Americans that oppose Right Wing politics don’t own or manage businesses.

  23. KARDNOS says:

    “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 8, 2011 at 8:12 pm
    Sue disgraces the men and women who gave her the right to fly the flag upside.

    “a.The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.”

    See above – Tea Party Patriots raise flags upside down in Syracuse

  24. KARDNOS says:

    concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 8, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    Sue, you should be arrested for flying the flag upsidedown.”

    Also see above – Tea Party Patriots raise flags upside down in Syracuse

  25. blakeshouse says:

    I fly my flag daily at half staff and upside down, have since the debacle of Nov 08

    Once this socialist/ neo marxist is put back on his street corner in Chicago I will proudly turn over and raise the flag as high as I possibly can. Until then it will remain the symbol of mourning and SOS it means just the way it flies today

  26. stillidealistic says:

    I fly my American flags from Memorial Day through the Fourth of July.

  27. Enough self-righteousness in this thread to choke a blue whale. An embarrassing display IMO.

  28. KARDNOS says:

    “sozo says:
    July 9, 2011 at 9:35 am
    Enough self-righteousness in this thread to choke a blue whale. An embarrassing display IMO.”

    Yeah….can you believe that those TEA Partiers flew flags upside down on July 4, 2009????

  29. KARDNOS says:

    “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 8, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    Sue, you should be arrested for flying the flag upsidedown.”

    blakeshouse says:
    July 9, 2011 at 9:12 am
    I fly my flag daily at half staff and upside down, have since the debacle of Nov 08

    :::::sounds of sirens::::::::

  30. KARDNOS says:

    “”When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” – Sinclair Lewis

  31. KARDNOS says:

    “Once this socialist/ neo marxist is put back on his street corner in Chicago”

    Just use the “N” word, Blake and quit mincing words. You know you want to say it.

    I’m sure Obama spent lots of time on the street corners of Chicago.

  32. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, Your wrong about President Obama hanging on corners on the south side of Chicago.

    The Community Organizor lived in a very high rent district on the South Side of Chicago, that particular neighborhood had its own security police along with the Chicago Police and could only be described as a very wealthy neighborhood for sure.

    Why do you revert to bringing President Obama’s race into so many debates ??

    It is possible for most reasonable folks who disagree with Obama’s policies to have a discussion about them without making Obama’s race the issue.

  33. Why are you so surprised?
    It’s a “volunteer” army – of our chidlren that fights the wars in foreign lands inadvertently, inevitably killing more innocent families than bad guys, while you get to walk your dog safely in a beautiful town and have no more constructive ways to spend your time than counting houses and taking polls of allegedly “non-patriots” that don’t fly flags.

    Goodness – do something more constructive with your leisure time than whine about how much more patriotic you are than your neighbors. Wars attacking people in their own countries, who have done our people no harm have very little to do with FREEDOM !

  34. WarmNfuzziOne says:

    Jerry, did you ever serve?

    No! Who the heck are you to question those of us who did?

  35. concernedtacoma7 says:

    It’s a “volunteer” army – of our chidlren that fights the wars in foreign lands inadvertently, inevitably killing more innocent families than bad guys, while you get to walk your dog safely in a beautiful town and have no more constructive ways to spend your time than counting houses and taking polls of allegedly “non-patriots” that don’t fly flags.

    OK- Why is volunteer in quotes? The last draftee from vietnam retired last week. Pretty sure EVERYONE else in the Armed Forced volunteered. And since the current conflicts have been going for about 10 years, most of the folks fighting today knew what they were going to be sent to do before they signed up. The rest have had time to get out.

    “killing more innocent families” – Where did you get that line? Prove it. Total, outright lie from someone who has not served and does not know anyone who does.

    Tacoma is not beautiful. The dems have let it fall apart while paying for crap the city does not need.

    Those that disgrace the flag or are seemingly angry at symbolic patriotism need to move. America saved the planet twice from evil (3x if you count the cold war). We have been the greatest force of good EVER on this planet. Technology, medicine, quality of life- the world owes America, nevermind our own citizens. It is attitudes like the ones we are seeeing on this board that will stop us from repeating the great successes of the past. We will be swamped in debt and too selfish and angry to accomplish greatness.

  36. tomwa007 says:

    Must be your neighborhood, there were tons in Browns Point and Northeast Tacoma including red white and blue bunting on railings and decks.

  37. KARDNOS says:

    Concerned Tacoma – “Those that disgrace the flag or are seemingly angry at symbolic patriotism need to move.”

    Tea Party Patriots raise flags upside down in Syracuse – July 4, 2009

  38. KARDNOS says:

    Roncella…..take a reading course at the 5th grade level. You need improvement.

  39. KARDNOS says:

    I notice that all the “patriots” shut up about upside down flags after the story about the TEA Party members……

    Well…Concerned didn’t shut up, but continued to prove ignorance….

    “killing more innocent families” – Where did you get that line? Prove it. Total, outright lie from someone who has not served and does not know anyone who does.”

    Yeah…everyone of the 250,000 Japanese that were killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were soldiers in combat……..(heavy sarcasm)

  40. concernedtacoma7 says:

    I do not agree with anyone flying the flag upside down unless they are in true distress as meant by the law. A ship at sea, a Soldier in battle.

    Happy, you were answered.

    And you are going back decades to agree a point in history few here can relate to. Not me for sure. But you need to point the full picture- bombing of London, Dresden, Berlin, Stalingrad, etc. You are arguing all war. We defeated EVIL and saved the planet. I cannot believe you support the Axis in WWII?

  41. Misunderestimated says:

    Ah, I just love it. And the popcorn is fresh and hot too…

  42. PAGIFAL says:

    I have always flown our flag every day but no longer do since we do NOT have a legitimate President. When we get a legitimate President then I will resume proudly flying our flag.

  43. concernedtacoma7 says:

    We do not dumb our conversations down enough for Kard. I was obviously answering an earlier post regarding current conflicts and Kard brings up WWII. Next it will be the barbarian hordes attacking Rome.

    Kard, if you cannot keep up please stick to commenting on Racheal Maddow’s fan page.

    You deflect and waste time.

  44. “KARDNOS says:
    JULY 9, 2011 AT 9:02 AM

    We’re still waiting for Staged1 to post a comment that contributes to the subject of a letter, as opposed to harassing others.”

    KARDNOS says:
    JULY 9, 2011 AT 7:02 PM
    Roncella…..take a reading course at the 5th grade level. You need improvement.

    KARDNOS says:
    JULY 9, 2011 AT 7:06 PM

    Well…Concerned didn’t shut up, but continued to prove ignorance….

    Irony

    shooting fish

    I could find more, but I have a life, unlike the Kard.

    And to head you off at the pass, there is no reason to post a comment about the letter when some azz will turn the conversation 180 degrees out of phase and then complain that no one wants to play with him.

    Does your wife know about this side of you?

  45. TSkidmore says:

    People adopt the symbols of what they feel a part of. The United States of America has been taken over by Corporate Amerika and Americans know it. I have no loyalty to this scummy system that has bought the government from top to bottom. Our elections are a joke…the media is purchased…we are in two stupid wars for the oil companies. Is it any wonder people don’t have old glory hanging from their house. Actually it might even be an insult to the flag given the corporate political phonies use for their own immoral purposes. I did fly my 13 stars to recall the revolution in which we threw the very tyrants we are once again saddled with out!

  46. madmike272 says:

    I am willing to be that leftists like isput, Skidmore, kardnos and bell don’t fly a flag, they probably burn them.

  47. concernedtacoma7 says:

    I bet they did in the 70’s; when the draft-dodgers were running around sue, kard, and the x’s had the gall to burn a flag. Today, with America going back to the right, they would not.

    No pride, no gumption. That is the left on this board

  48. I have to admit, reading these TNT threads IS cheap entertainment. Everyone has an opinion, they all post to get someone just to look at them. It’s okay, its the way of our culture.

    Whether its purposely blipping the throttle on an un-muffled Harley begging to be noticed, or running a trunk lid rattling car stereo, or flying a flag upside down, there is always one common thread….Most normal people look at them and think….”What an IDIOT!”

  49. “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 10, 2011 at 3:26 am
    I bet they did in the 70’s; when the draft-dodgers were running around sue, kard, and the x’s had the gall to burn a flag. Today, with America going back to the right, they would not.

    No pride, no gumption. That is the left on this board”

    Tea Party Patriots raise flags upside down in Syracuse – July 4, 2009

  50. Staged1, like so many personalities before it, deletes the major contextual portion of my comment and then tries to equate it in a “mom……Kardnos did it, so I can” manner……Are you sure you’re old enough to participate?

  51. If I understand Concerned’s lastest rant (a major accomplishment for me) it takes pride and gumption to burn the flag?

  52. “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 9, 2011 at 9:12 pm
    We do not dumb our conversations down enough for Kard. I was obviously answering an earlier post regarding current conflicts and Kard brings up WWII. Next it will be the barbarian hordes attacking Rome.

    Kard, if you cannot keep up please stick to commenting on Racheal Maddow’s fan page.

    You deflect and waste time.”

    Uh…”Concerned”…..please copy and paste where I brought up WWII on this thread

    I have had too much fun with the “TEA Party should be arrested, according to you”

  53. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, The majority of the Tea Party Folks are better representitives of what America stands for than what you comment on in most of your posts.

    What ever has taken you to such a very extreme far left Liberal way of seeing current events through a tunnel vision of leftest mis-information is beyond comprehension.

    You actually sound an awful lot like one of the fools on MSNBC called Mr. Ed. In fact I really believe you could and should appear on that show with him.

    You could just sit there and nod your head up and down in agreement with everything he says, like a bobble head.

  54. Oh…..Concerned…I’m sorry…you thought my examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were exclusively about WWII. I’ll dumb down for you.

    Those comments were about KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE, which you claim the US doesn’t do……..NOW….

    You want to claim you were talking about Vietnam. OK…how’s this?

    Mi Lai Massacre?

    Want more recent innocent people being killed? “Shock and Awe”.

    Now….did you get the analogies this time or are you going to attempt to wiggle out again? I’m still looking for you to say the TEA Party members should be arrested for flying the flag upside down on July 4, 2009

  55. Roncella…..talk to Concerned. He thinks the TEA Party should be jailed.

    Thanks for the compliment about me being so “leftist”….after seeing the example of “Rightist” you exude…..well….it tells me where I want to be.

    Hey…by the way…..do you collect Social Security and use Medicare?

  56. Roncella says:

    KANRDNOS, President Truman did what he had to do to stop Japans aggression and desires for World domination.

    Trumans actions actually saved lifes of our military and other Countries military by dropping the Bomb.

    President Reagan summed it up just right when he said, ” When you can’t make them see the light , make them feel the heat “.

  57. Roncella says:
    July 10, 2011 at 9:05 am
    KARDNOS, The majority of the Tea Party Folks are better representitives of what America stands for than what you comment on in most of your posts.

    Tea Party Patriots raise flags upside down in Syracuse – July 4, 2009

    “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 8, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    Sue, you should be arrested for flying the flag upsidedown.”

    You see? There you go.

  58. So Roncella DOES ENDORSE killing innocent citizens for military and political purposes.

    That means that Roncella endorses the killing of innocent citizens by Al Queda, the Taliban, Hamas, et al….

  59. Roncella…what’s your excuses of Mi Lai and “Shock and Awe”?

    This should be interesting….

  60. Roncella – practice your goosestep, get the flag on video in the backgound along with appropriate music and deliver your excuses for citizen massacre. Don’t leave out appropriate racial connections.

  61. I always love the “patriotism” that can justify killing citizenry by your side, but not by the opposition.

  62. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, Say what you want about The Donald. But he actually got President Obama to show his actual birth Certificate which he refused to do for over 2 1/2 years in less than three weeks.

    KARDNOS, I wonder are you also just as upset by the loss of life before and after 9-11 Muslim terroists attack on America ??

    The majority of Tea Party folks are law abiding and actually pay all their taxes.

    Unlike a few of the far left cabinet selections of President Obama and folks like Charlie Rangel who should be in jail for tax evasion.

  63. “concernedtacoma7 well clearly YOU ARE ANTI AMERICAN and know nothing about the flag.
    As an American citizen I have every right to fly my flag upside down. You just dont like it because I did it when the sociopath Bush was President. It also tells you that I understand the uses of the flag and you dont..

    Just another, uneducated, not too bright , exploited gop cult member.

  64. Roncella.If you are so worried about the morality of congress…. why dont you call for VITTER to resign. You know the man who went to whores to have sex while wearing a diagper. NOt one word from you cult freaks.

    Clearly, Roncella, your repertoire of morals includes men cheating on their wives with prostitutes….. golf clap for Roncella, everyone, little miss morality.

  65. Roncella says:

    sue1234, What happened to the phase its Vittters personal business what he does in private ??
    That was the Montra of the Democrats and the far left used to defend President Bill Clinton against more and more woman who came out of the woodwork besides his public affair with Monica Lewinsky.

    Apparently the voters are satisfied with Vitter.

  66. “Roncella says:
    July 10, 2011 at 9:26 am
    KARDNOS, Say what you want about The Donald. But he actually got President Obama to show his actual birth Certificate which he refused to do for over 2 1/2 years in less than three weeks.

    KARDNOS, I wonder are you also just as upset by the loss of life before and after 9-11 Muslim terroists attack on America ??

    The majority of Tea Party folks are law abiding and actually pay all their taxes.

    Unlike a few of the far left cabinet selections of President Obama and folks like Charlie Rangel who should be in jail for tax evasion.

    1. “The Donald” is a sideshow. What The Donald did was demonstrate that he is a liar – just like you and everyone else that said Obama wasn’t a citizen.

    2. What does 9/11 have to do with any part of this discussion?

    3. Prove that the “majority of the TEA Party are law abiding” They could all be speeders on a daily basis (although, by the looks of them, I doubt it).

    4. What did Charlie Rangel do that was called “tax evasion”? (I expect details on this question, although I know you’ll avoid it because you don’t know)

  67. Montra???? Wasn’t that the monster in a Japanese sci-fi picture?

  68. They spend their welfare money on fireworks and don’t have enough left over to buy a flag. Wait a few years and you’ll see plenty of Mexican flags around though.

  69. frosty…and your proof of that racist comment is……..

  70. It’s almost funny how Americans can complain about Mexicans coming to live here, when so many retired Americans move to Mexico or border states to take advantage of low Mexican prices…..LOL

  71. concernedtacoma7 says:

    I will continue to dumb it down for Kard. He must be off his meds this weekend, he is particulary slow.

    The 9-11 post was reference your rant on the US killing innocents. If you cannot make that connection you should stop posting. You brought up WWII and had to ask your mom why I was talking about it.

    Last, you cite one instance of disrespect at a tea party rally. How many rallies have occurred nationwide? Look at video of Wisconson. Savages. Look at a tea party rally (well, it normally is not in the news since they are peaceful).

    Sue- your blind hatred to Bush and love of Barack Hussein Obama show your inability to reason properly. Both were/are not evil or infallible. Difference is Bush did what he did because he loved America

  72. concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 10, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    I will continue to dumb it down for Kard. He must be off his meds this weekend, he is particulary slow.
    The 9-11 post was reference your rant on the US killing innocents.

    the lies continue by Concerned.

    I didn’t “rant” about the US killing innocents…that was “bell”:

    bell says:
    July 9, 2011 at 11:22 am
    Why are you so surprised?
    It’s a “volunteer” army – of our chidlren that fights the wars in foreign lands inadvertently, inevitably killing more innocent families than bad guys

    to which you responded:

    “killing more innocent families” – Where did you get that line? Prove it. Total, outright lie”

    ….to which I proved you wrong by citing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    When you complained that it wasn’t about WWII, I added “Mi Lai” and “Shock and Awe”.

    Now you claim it’s something about “9/11″???? (last I knew we didn’t attack anyone on 9/11)

    So far, you have changed the subject about four times, but what doesn’t go away are your comments, which are easily copied and pasted, as you can see I’ve done.

    Worry about your own meds and mother. My meds are for blood pressure (which is perfect) and my mother is dead.

    What will your next excuse be?

  73. “Sue- your blind hatred to Bush and love of Barack Hussein Obama show your inability to reason properly.”

    Right from the Rush Limbaugh slogan book.

  74. “Last, you cite one instance of disrespect at a tea party rally.”

    Hey, hey…..YOU were the one that said people flying a flag upside down should be arrested!!!

    Why are you changing your tune now???????

  75. “Look at video of Wisconson.”

    Yep…I’ve seen lots of video from Wisconsin. No American flags upside down.

  76. “Concerned Tacoma – “Those that disgrace the flag or are seemingly angry at symbolic patriotism need to move.”

    I guess those TEA Partiers need to move and the Wisconsin protestors get to stay.

  77. “PAGIFAL says:
    July 9, 2011 at 8:30 pm
    I have always flown our flag every day but no longer do since we do NOT have a legitimate President. When we get a legitimate President then I will resume proudly flying our flag.

    and not to let this piece of genius go un-noticed…..

    Pagifal’s idea of a “legitimate” president is one that wasn’t born in Hawaii, nor won an election with a landslide of electoral votes, as well as 53% of the popular vote.

    It’s so nice that the racists still haven’t given up.

  78. concernedtacoma7 says:

    What you saw in Wisconson was vile union thugs and hippies destroying govt property and making a mess at the expense of taxpayers.

    One example and you act like you have found the Holy Grail.

    You are portraying the US military as reckless. You cite one instance in Vietnam and our actions to end a world war. Pathetic. You are arguing that we could have saved the planet some peaceful way? Every go pearl harbor

  79. Concerned – I don’t need you to tell me what I saw on TV. You can’t follow a cohesive conversation without manipulating it, much less tell me what I saw.

    You claim the military doesn’t kill innocent civilians. I proved you wrong. I also cited “Shock and Awe” which killed Iraqi citizens who didn’t do a damned thing to the US. Pathetic.

    You can’t handle the truth (in my best Jack Nicholson)

  80. For the superpatriots…..watch 60 Minutes right now…..

    Segment about Homeless Vets.

    The embarrassment of our country.

  81. Roncella says:

    60 mins, has become just another far left rag sheet for T.V. At one time it was an interesting show to watch, not now.

    Kardnos, President Ronald Reagan, Wrote, this , and you need to be reminded of this, Now,

    ” No people who have ever lived have fought harder, paid a higher price for Freedom or done more to advance the dignity of man than Americans “.

    Kardnos read this a few times slowly and maybe the words will sink in……….though its doubtful they will in your case.

  82. summit98446 says:

    Weren’t both Sarah Palin & Rick Perry at some level pro-Alaska & pro-Texas secession, respectively?
    .
    That’s all I need to know about either, flag or not.

  83. Roncella says:

    Summit98446, President Obama refused to wear the American Flag pin when he started running for President in the 08 elections. He finally started wearing the pin after the press noticed it and reported on the fact he was not wearing the American Flag pin on his suits.

    I doubt that either Sarah Palin or Governor Perry would ever have to be embarrassed in order to wear an American flag pin…..Thats all I need to know about their character as possible candidates that may be running for President.

  84. Concerned,
    Wisconsin Videos – try watching the unedited versions not shown on Fox Entertainment Spews.

    “vile union thugs and hippies destroying govt property and making a mess at the expense of taxpayers.”

    More right wing slop from the guy who actually thought about using anti-union thugs against the Wisconsin State Workers who wanted to protect they collective bargaining rights.

  85. concernedtacoma7 says:

    anti-union thugs? Do those exist? And where do I play into this again? Happy hour posting.

    Kard- the media loves to find a vet down on their luck. Where does the obligation end for a person who served a few years and got out? If they were not injured?

    Do you know the process a Soldier must go through after a deployment? The process before they end their service?

    Do not blame the services, blame our entitlement society. Blame people like yourself. If you are embarrassed, what have you done to fix what you perceive as a problem?

    Before you run and call me heartless I wear a flag on my right shoulder everytime I go to work.

  86. “vile union thugs and hippies”

    :::::::::::::::shaking his head::::::::::::::

  87. “Roncella says:
    July 10, 2011 at 7:59 pm
    Summit98446, President Obama refused to wear the American Flag pin when he started running for President in the 08 elections”

    Another Roncella lie. He didn’t REFUSE to wear a lapel pin…..he obviously forgot to put it on…just like John McCain did.

    http://crooksandliars.com/2008/04/20/notice-anything-john-mccain-doesnt-have-an-american-flag-pin

  88. “Do not blame the services, blame our entitlement society.”

    Yeah, take those billions given to military contractors in Iraq and quit “entitling” them. That could care for military vets.

    I love how Mr. Flag Waver can cover the TEA Party keesters when they are caught doing what he claims others should be jailed for and then can qualify what a homeless vet should be by “time served”. Combat vets might have served only a couple of years, but been through much more than a lifer, who polish a chair with his backside for 20 years.

    “Before you run and call me heartless I wear a flag on my right shoulder everytime I go to work.”

    Yeah….and so do some truck drives….big damned deal…..

  89. Roncella says:
    July 10, 2011 at 7:59 pm

    Summit98446, President Obama refused to wear the American Flag pin when he started running for President in the 08 elections. He finally started wearing the pin after the press noticed it and reported on the fact he was not wearing the American Flag pin on his suits.

    I doubt that either Sarah Palin or Governor Perry would ever have to be embarrassed in order to wear an American flag pin…..Thats all I need to know about their character as possible candidates that may be running for President.
    ——–
    The truth is:

    Oct 4, 2007

    “I decided I won’t wear that pin on my chest,” he said in the interview. “Instead, I’m going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testament to my patriotism.”

    On Thursday, his campaign issued a statement: “We all revere the flag, but Senator Obama believes that being a patriot is about more than a symbol. It’s about fighting for our veterans when they get home and speaking honestly with the American people about this disastrous war.”

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299439,00.html#ixzz1RoLiKp2A

  90. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Sarah+Palin+pictures&id=888F496E352DD1DB62C725C94E88C7B5561D7D74&FORM=IGRE5#x0y742

    Count the number of Pictures where Sarah Palin isn’t wearing a flag lapel pin.

  91. Polago – Obama wore a flag lapel pin many times on campaign. Sorry, but I’m going to have to question your source – FOX – as to the “accuracy” of Obama’s statement

    Now, that being said, I can’t agree more about the phoney symbolism that a flag has become. When I was younger, during Vietnam, to wear the flag as a piece of clothing as desecration. Today, there is hardly a country singer alive that doesn’t integrate the American flag into their outfit, not to mention NASCAR drivers, etc. The American flag has become the new “watch the shiny object” in the Conservative Magic Show to distract people from what is really happening in our country.

    For two days people have railed about flag waving and I’ll bet not one of them realizes that, for all the campaign promises made by Republicans in 2010, not one jobs bill has come out of the House of Representatives.

    But….let’s wail about flag waving. If we keep this up, no one will be able to afford a flag to wave.

  92. Polago….I recind.

    Here is from Bill Mahr in Salon – “A reporter in Iowa asked Obama why he doesn’t wear the pin and Obama explained that, to him, wearing the pin had come to seem like a “substitute for true patriotism.” Bravo, Senator.”

    FOX is honest once in awhile, but I never trust them without a backup.

  93. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, READ, Polago’s post above he researched the entire story about Obama not wanting to wear the America Flag pin and why.

    Obama realized as he ran for President in 08 that he had to hurry and backtrack the reasons why he refused to wear the America Flag pin on his suits. The story about it was gaining traction and many Americans were begining to notice he was not wearing the American Flag pin.

    Obama did an about face and to this day is never seen not wearing the American Flag pin. His excuse for not wearng the America Flag Pin was weak and sad. With all the lifes that have faught for the freedom the flag represents it disappointing he tried to find a reason on why he didn’t have to show them the respect they deserve.

  94. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, the best you can do is quote Bill Mahr, a big time lefty loser ???

  95. Roncella….

    If Bill Maher is a loser….you’ve dropped off the planet.

    Maher is THE ONLY TV pundit that is on paid TV and produces a LIVE show with both liberal and conservative guests.

    Although she was worthless, he had Ann Coulter as one of his guests on Friday night. If Coulter sounded like something more than a high school valleygirl with her smarmy insults, she might convince me that her law degree was real.

  96. Roncella – “substitute for true patriotism.”

    Nothing more need be said.

    wait…..there is always…Sinclair Lewis’ quote….but that would be over your head.

  97. So…Roncella….is the real reason for Obama not wearing a flag pin:

    A. He is a Kenyan

    B. He is a Muslim

    C. He is a Marxist

    D. You are a fool

  98. The funniest part of Roncella bashing Maher is that Maher backed up what FOX reported……LOL

  99. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, You seem to have come unglued on the posts here. My comments are just meant to give the Conservative side of many of your far left socialistic rants.

    There is no need to get upset emotionally as we both posts are comments.

    I will compliment you on one thing, you are a good soldier for everything Obama and Pelosi and Reid and the Dems say and do. They really do not deserve your loyalty.

  100. What you saw in Wisconson was vile union thugs and hippies destroying govt property and making a mess at the expense of taxpayers.

    Man, at least aislander tries to hide her lies, you just tell the most blatent lies and expect people to swallow them.

  101. Uh…Roncella…..

    How would you be able to tell if I’m upset or not?

    You barely comprehend most of the comments here, much less being able to read emotions into them.

  102. xtp – it’s more of the same from the “make it up as you go” crowd.

    They act as if we don’t educated ourselves. Strangely, it’s usually proven that THEY are the ones that haven’t boned up on the subject.

  103. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, Its OK to express your comments however you want to. No need to cover your feelings about your actual beliefs.

    Your posts say alot about who you are, as my posts do about me.

  104. Bill Maher has accomplished more in his lifetime than you ever will, Roncella.

    Who is the loser, now?

  105. Roncella says:

    Polago, You have no idea what I have accomplished in my life.

    To compare my accomplishments with a very far left lib/progressive like Maher or anyone else you first have to have a knowledge of what I may have accomplished in my life, then you could make that statement one way or the other.

    When liberals can’t win the debate they go personal attack every time, true to form.

  106. Don’t get so upset, Roncella.

  107. Are you saying that you have accomplished more than Bill Maher has, Roncella?

  108. Roncella says:

    Polago, No, Your saying that the far left Mahre has accomplished more in his lifetime than I have.

    My question to you is how do you know what I have accomplished in my lifetime ?

    As I have said so many times when some liberals can’t win the debate they always goe personal attacks, its their usual response.

  109. Roncella…..

    Since you have admitted to being the person writing the LTEs, I can google your name and check your fame.

    Lets see what I come up with……LOL

    Well….a little check of your name turns up nothing on the internet, thus we “don’t know” what you’ve done in your life….and neither does anyone else….LOL

  110. “Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 9:42 am
    KARDNOS, You seem to have come unglued on the posts here.
    —————————————
    Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 10:38 am
    As I have said so many times when some liberals can’t win the debate they always goe personal attacks, its their usual response.
    —————————————-

    Is Monday irony day?????

  111. “Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 10:38 am
    My question to you is how do you know what I have accomplished in my lifetime ?”

    Google is a great start……LMAO

  112. Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 8:56 am
    Bill Mahr, a big time lefty loser ???
    —————————————————–
    Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 10:38 am
    As I have said so many times when some liberals can’t win the debate they always goe personal attacks, its their usual response.
    —————————————————-

    Either Roncella has turned liberal in a heatbeat, or has everything upside down and backwards, as usual.

  113. gonefishin69690 says:

    Flying the American flag is no longer politically correct.

  114. Well…if you say so……gonefishin

  115. Well, Roncella….congratulations….

    You made “whitepages.com”. Except….it’s not what you think it is….

  116. Many many times you’ve used that same line about the subject of conversation being much much more accomplished than the person who expresses criticism. Now you call it a personal attack.

    Thanks for clarifying that you feel you have been personally attacking those with whom you disagree, Roncella.

  117. Roncella says:

    Polago, you seem abit confused this morning with your posts. Have another cup of coffee before your next post, it just might help.

  118. leehallfae says:

    Color me confused. I thought that part of freedom meant not Flying the Flag.

  119. Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 11:07 am
    Polago, you seem abit confused this morning with your posts. Have another cup of coffee before your next post, it just might help.
    ———————————————–
    Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 10:38 am
    As I have said so many times when some liberals can’t win the debate they always goe personal attacks, its their usual response.

    bIt just keeps goin’ and goin’……LOL

  120. leehall……the Conservatives pick and choose their opportunities for the First Amendment. They like to think that it means the right to choose to be a Christian.

  121. KARDNOS, someone must have tightened your collar a little too tight. What is it about patriotism that sends you off in such a tizzy? The mere mention of the flag or miltary service is enough to get you to pound out the equivalent of a weekly edition of the New York Times on your keyboard. You know there is a cure for that, it’s called “military service”. Although in your case it’s a little too late. You missed that oppotunity when you went into hiding from the draft. Maybe you can get a job as a scout master with the Boy Scouts?

  122. Roncella says:

    leehall, your “free” to either fly the flag or not fly the flag. However be respectful of the flag, it means an awful lot to most Americans.

  123. frosty…sorry if I don’t think that polishing a chair with your butt for 20 years in the military is “patriotic”.

    Question, Mr. Patriotism….how can someone “hide” from the draft with 1A status?

  124. “Roncella says:
    July 11, 2011 at 11:27 am
    leehall, your “free” to either fly the flag or not fly the flag. However be respectful of the flag, it means an awful lot to most Americans.

    Flag Etiquette
    STANDARDS of RESPECT
    The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:

    The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal. ( See TEA PARTY)

    The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard (See Republican Party)

    The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations. (See Conservatives galore)

  125. Oh and frosty….I wouldn’t participate with a children’s organization that discriminates, so the Boy Scouts are out.

  126. http://www.gettysburgflag.com/TEA-Party.php

    Scroll about half way down the page for a great example of flag desecretion.

  127. Roncella says:

    DARDNOS, The American Flag means alot to the folks who love America and Americans.

    For those who don’t respect the flag, Well they can move to france, or cuba where they would be alot happier.

  128. “For those who don’t respect the flag, Well they can move to france, or cuba where they would be alot happier.”

    Are you helping the TEA Party get on the bus? A nice bus trip to France or Cuba would work will for those TEA Partiers that disrespect our flag.

  129. Here’s a better image of what the TEA Party has done to our beloved flag:

    http://www.gettysburgflag.com/images/Tea-Party_674.jpg

  130. It’s not up to you to decide whether someone does or does not respect the flag, Roncella.

    We all show respect for our country in our own individual way. We don’t need the likes of you to be any judge of our character.

  131. Roncella says:

    Polago, your posts come across like you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

    Whats with your negative attitude ?

    President Obama was on T.V. Again, you should have got a tingle up and down your legs while he spoke to the camera’s, Right ??

  132. Your posts coma across as though you’re clueless, Roncella.

    It was nice playing space cadet with you this morning. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

  133. Roncella says:

    Polago, your most definitely in the twilight zone today.

  134. KthnksBYE!

  135. BlaineCGarver says:

    Kard: Brevity is the soul of wit……

    On the subject at hand, or it should be anyway: It’s no worse to display and intend no good, than it is to not display and mean no harm. Some of you socialist scum could fly all the flags in the world, and you would still be anti-American.

  136. BlaineCGarver says:

    KARDNOS says:
    July 11, 2011 at 11:50 am
    Here’s a better image of what the TEA Party has done to our beloved flag:

    http://www.gettysburgflag.com/images/Tea-Party_674.jpg

    You ignorant so and so….that is not a flag, anymore than red white and blue bunting around the picnic tables or light poles. Why don’t you study exactly what a flag is before pretending to know anything about flag code.

  137. Nothing I love better than suckering a Conservative into making a jackass of himself.

  138. Here’s a little more up the old kazoo, Blake….

    “Flags which fly from angled poles on homes and those which are displayed
    on standing poles in offices and other indoor displays are usually
    either 3′ x 5′ or 4′ x 6′.”

  139. http://www.gettysburgflag.com/images/GadsenCrossedLapel.jpg

    And here is the Tea Party’s lapel pin giving equal prominence to the Gadsen, rather than prominence to the US Flag

  140. uh oh……Blake disappeared……LOL

  141. concernedtacoma7 says:

    KARD- I have never witnessed an online breakdown like the one you are having here. Do we need call for help?

    To respond to your earlier post about me- I have 4 deployments in the last 10 years, all at the company level or below. I am an Infantryman.

    I do more daily for this nation than you have done in your 8 decades.

  142. “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 11, 2011 at 2:20 pm
    KARD- I have never witnessed an online breakdown like the one you are having here. Do we need call for help?

    To respond to your earlier post about me- I have 4 deployments in the last 10 years, all at the company level or below. I am an Infantryman.”

    Concerned – you and frosty need to get together and start the “we served in the military so we have more rights than you do” club.

    If you are such a good military man, you should know that it’s your responsibility to protect the First Amendment Rights of ALL Americans, not just your Conservative yeawhoes.

    Lastly, while I appreciate the job our military does, I don’t appreciate when they take my tax dollars for their pay and want to tell me how to live my life.

    (see how much fun your little game is?)

    You work for ME. I’m the TAXPAYER. YOU are the employee.

    (oh…this is fun…..)

  143. Concerned…maybe you can explain how proving that your treasured TEA Party are just a bunch of hucksters is a “break down”.

    Was that party of your training as an infantryman?

  144. Hoooollllld on there Babalooie!!!!

    If you are a locally stationed infantry man, and denying that innocent citizens are killed by the military……you must be disagreeing with the recent story about the trials at Fort Lewis.

    Please….elaborate. We’d love to hear your take how those soldiers didn’t kill citizens.

  145. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The breakdown of Kard continues…

    I obviously know more about the service than you. I know more about the current conflicts and how Soldiers are taken care of. You cannot argue that point with any conviction.

    You deflected away from your original point and continue to fall apart.

    The military does not take your tax dollars (which I doubt you pay any of). Politicians do. You are welcome for the lesson.

    How does the military tell you how to live your life unless you are a current service member?

    Take a break. You are nuttier than usual.

  146. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Your last post is exactly why I normally do not broadcast my military service. I do have the right to opine on all matters involving the military, especially an ongoing trial.

  147. Concerned….I see you are going to take the coward’s way out……

    Come on…tell us how it’s a lie that military personnel kill citizens and there as this trial at Fort Lewis……

  148. Alaska casually describes on a video tape made by military investigators how his unit’s “crazy” sergeant randomly chose three unarmed, innocent victims to be murdered in Afghanistan.

    Corporal Jeremy N. Morlock is one of five GI’s charged with pre-meditated murder in a case that includes allegations of widespread drug use, the collection of body parts and photos of the U.S. soldiers holding the Afghan bodies like hunter’s trophies.

    Now according to our infantryman….

    killing more innocent families” – Where did you get that line? Prove it. Total, outright lie from someone who has not served and does not know anyone who does.”

  149. “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 11, 2011 at 3:39 pm
    Your last post is exactly why I normally do not broadcast my military service. I do have the right to opine on all matters involving the military, especially an ongoing trial.

    WHAT A CROCK! You are anonymous! LMAO

    Methinks we’ve caught someone playing army in the basement….

  150. This clown wanted to talk about what my generation did in the 1970s…..I’m betting that he wasn’t so much as a wink in his daddy’s eye in the 1970s….LOL

  151. Kardy, I thought you said you were a recovering alcoholic. Did you not tell us that you still take other substances? Man what happened to you today? Major cry for help.

  152. Staged1 – As usual….YOUR wrong. I’m a recovered alcoholic, which as any fool should know….you included…..has nothing to do with this thread.

  153. Just out of curiosity…is the new childish way of trying to one up someone to claim an emotional breakdown or the equivilant? It sure seems to the the Rightees calling card lately.

  154. The new way to discredit someone is to suggest that they got up on the wrong side of the bed.

    Which side of the bed did you get up on this morning, Kardnos?

  155. concernedtacoma7 says:

    What your generation did? You are now taking credit for an entire generation’s worth of successes and failures? How about my generation blames yours for letting our education system and infrastructure fall apart? Spend other people’s money for endless entitlements? Ask us to pay for it! Some legacy you are leaving.

    And lets say I was born in 1980 (not true, but play along). I would be 30 or 31 right now. While not exactly an old salt, old enough to see through your junk. Old enough to see how your debate style cherry-picks history and stats. Old enough to see you habitually pick out a minor event and attempt to turn it into some great victory. This entire board sees you as a nutjob. A 6 year old could see you have fallen apart. Besides, I thought the youth had all of the answers? Don’t the liberals love when students rise up and protest? So now you imply the youth are ignorant.

    Take a nap. Wait, read these before you go to sleep. You might learn a thing or two. You will bash the sources and ignore the data, but you and everyone else will know it is a deflection.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/271397/warren-buffett-s-worst-investment-kevin-d-williamson

    http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokoukis/2011/07/10/no-big-budget-deal-blame-obama-not-boehner/

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/10/curl-mr-president-do-the-math-250000-per-year-isnt/

  156. The National Review and Washington Times???? Well at least you are consistent.

    Now…”concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 11, 2011 at 6:22 pm
    What your generation did? You are now taking credit for an entire generation’s worth of successes and failures?”

    I know that your media of choice isn’t big on verbal exercise but my comment about “my generation” is a colloquialism (you’ll have to look that up) and has nothing to do with me personally, other than my participation as a human in my generation (gawwwd…did I really have to explain something like this???)

    Now, as to age – I’ve got children older than you, mostlikely, but that isn’t the point. The point is that you claimed that someone lied when saying that military killed innocent citizens. You’ve been proven wrong. Simple and plain.

    All of your other crap is just defection to avoid that you’ve been called on your manure spreading.

  157. The Reuter’s piece – “First, he could have embraced market-centered, consumer -focused reforms to Medicare. That was about as likely as him accepting an Obamacare rollback.”

    When a “journalist” uses the word “Obamacare” he gives himself away as biased. Thanks for playing.

    The Washington Times is a hack source and every grown adult knows it, unless they are followers of Reverend Moon.

    “National Review (NR) is a biweekly magazine founded by the late author William F. Buckley, Jr., in 1955.” Need more be said???????

    I know, you might not be old enough to know who Buckley was, but you do have a computer in front of you.

    Of course, by today’s standards, Buckley would be a Marxist…..LOL

  158. Polago….

    I can only get out of bed on one side. There is a spouse on the other side.

    I guess I’m the same everyday.

  159. Now….my favorite Buckley quote:

    “Even if one takes every reefer madness allegation of the prohibitionists at face value, marijuana prohibition has done far more harm to far more people than marijuana ever could.” – William F. Buckley

    Could you imagine a Conservative getting away with that today?????

  160. The problem with kids nowadays is that they don’t know the difference between a news story and an opinion piece.

  161. fk

  162. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Hey there genius, the Reuters story was an opinion piece, which is what it usually is when it starts with blog.kardisslow.com

    But data is data. Nice deflection

  163. Uh…Concerned…they were all opinion pieces…but I’ll forgive your ignorance.

    Next time….read the piece for something more than the talking points.

    Like I said…the problem with kids nowadays…..

  164. Concerned,
    Mi Lai was the tip of the iceburg.

    USAF and RAF Firebombing WWII;

    Hamburg, 1943, 50,000 civilians killed.

    Pforzheim, 1945, 18,000 civilians killed.

    Dresden, 25,000 civilian casualties.

    Tokyo, 83,000 dead, over 40,000 wounded.

    Roncella,
    Tough words from a rear-echelon hack who spent the war safe in Hollywood.

  165. So…..concernedfather7 wasn’t alive in the 60s yet he continues to complain about hippies?

  166. beerboy – I do believe I exposed Concerned to be a creation of his/her own mind

  167. “and just about everything that made our country the greatest force of good this planet has ever seen”

    You mean like good paying union manufacturing jobs for taxpaying Americans, concernedtacoma7?

    I’m not buying your “hates America” crapola. Especially when it comes from someone who would wave a flag while stabbing hard working Americans in the back because he can’t stand to see someone else prosper.

  168. So THIS is the new toxic disposal location?

  169. BlaineCGarver says:

    Blah, blah, blah and nothing on topic. You People are truly turning a valuable blog into Pig Poop.

  170. theglovesRoff says:

    Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back for what you think you did kardnos.

    BCG, one man has led the destruction of this blog. It is truly pathetic.

  171. Abraham Lincoln said: “It is the duty of nations, as well as of men, who owe their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by a history that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord. The awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us. We have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has grown, but we have forgotten God.”

  172. Are you inferring that kardnos is the antichrist?

    ;-)

    That “symbol” was for you kard…….

  173. KARDNOS, “how can anyone hide from hide from draft with 1A status”? Uhh, how was your stay in Canada?

  174. KARDNOS, When I offered the Boy Scouts as an alternative, somehow I kinda figured you would find it unaccepted for that very same reason. My perceptive skills are right on target as usual. Please keep nibbling at the hook .

  175. frosty – so….when you heard loud noises as a serviceman, did you call the military police to report your neighbors?

  176. beerboy, ever heard of PTSD? Probably not since it’s not something that draft dodgers suffer from very often.

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