Letters to the Editor

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ECONOMY: Political cycle hurting the nation

Letter by Kerry J. Phibbs, South Hill on July 5, 2011 at 1:49 pm with 138 Comments »
July 5, 2011 2:32 pm

If you are around long enough you start to see a cycle in American politics. If things are going well, Republicans look around and say “Hey, things are going well. Why do we need all these taxes and regulations? Things are great, we don’t need them!”

The general population says “Sure, why not? Let’s vote these wise people into office.” The Republicans come in, drop taxes and regulations. Pretty soon, things go haywire: Food, safety and infrastructure go sideways, and the general public starts to suffer.

Then the Democrats are put back in office to fix things up. After the state/country are back in shape the cycle repeats itself.

Unfortunately, the last crew of Republicans were so radical and the Democratic offerings so weak-kneed that Republicans were re-elected and major damage was done – much more than two years of the new Democratic administration could fix. And this new administration is assailed by an even more radicalized Republican group that are blaming the mess that Republicans created on Democrats.

Republicans need to work with the president, not against him. There is no reputable economist who thinks that we can get out of this mess unless we get rid of the ruinous Cheney/Bush tax cuts. Do that and we will be in “good” shape within two years.

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  1. menopaws says:

    Amen!!!!!!!! The Republicans drove us into a very deep ditch and it took 8 years of a MBA President who sold most of America off to corporate interests….and now, in two years–it’s supposed to go back to prosperity and rampant, unregulated capitalism……..Let’s get rid of that bill they passed putting the brakes on banks, let’s spur business on by cutting safety and health regulations—they cost too much money anyway………let’s turn the TSA over to a private contractor, who, by the way, is a HUGE contributor to the Republican party………People truly don’t want to see the massive “con” job of propaganda being carefully shoved down their throats. It’s all Obama’s fault–everything…….The debt ceiling was raised SEVEN times during the Bush adminstration—now they are playing politics with the faith and credit of our nation by using it as a weapon. They are, as David Brooks, a conservative columnist said, behaving like radical terrorists…..And placing our country in jeopardy for their political agenda………But, it is always someone else’s fault….They preach the mantra of personal responsibility—but NEVER accept any. They have no desire to be team players for the good of America. It is their agenda or nothing……..

  2. Soundlife says:

    “get rid of the ruinous Cheney/Bush tax cuts. Do that and we will be in “good” shape within two years”

    Obviously you know nothing of economics, and are simply another shrill for the extreme left.
    Our Country has $14.3 Trillion in short term debt which will destroy our budget and economy as interest rates begin to rise, $100+ Trillion in unfunded mandates (long term obligations such as Social Security, Medicare), and a political class from both parties in power that doesn’t have a clue.
    First and foremost we need immediate, sharp and deep cuts in federal spending.
    Then we need to ween American’s off the national teat so we can meet our obligations.
    Finally we need to take a closer look at who we are voting for in local, regional and national elections as we are doing this to ourselves with the idiots we elect from both major parties.
    However, if we choose to continue our present course, it will all begin to sort itself out within the next few years. Of course you may not find this quite as enjoyabe as the US dollar is replaced as the international reserve, the world steps in to oversee our budget process as we default on debts, and another generation gets to relive the same mistakes of the 1930s…

  3. nwcolorist says:

    No, the President needs to work with the Republicans in Congress.

    If you think 2010 was a bad year for the Dems, just wait until 2012.

  4. aislander says:

    What color is the sky on planet phibbs-epsilon7? We have the debt under which we are burying our children and theirs precisely BECAUSE of Democrat “governance,” and the totalitarian regime they are building. And, yes: I know what “totalitarian” means. Look up the history of the word…

  5. Soundlife says:

    Our most successful economic decades occur when the Presidency is controlled by one party and Congress by another. Reagan’s 80s and Clinton’s 90s.
    Either party in control of everything has repeatedly shown itself to be devastating to the country as the parties just seem to go nuts rewarding their supporters at everyone’s expense when in sole power.
    Split government always leave them fighting to a stalemate, with the country winning in the end.
    Until we manage to elect better representatives from both parties instead of the inept buffoons always on television and the ballot, split government is the best we can hope for.

  6. concernedtacoma7 says:

    The Brooks article was a piece of fiction. Dem’s have done nothing but spend OUR money and the well is dry. They failed at passing a budget, and in the civilian world would all be fired. $4 trillion spent and nothing to show for it.

    I do acknowledge the bias in townhall, but this is about facts.

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2011/07/05/david_brooks_needs_a_vacation/print

  7. newscrap says:

    nwcolorist
    How does the President work with Republicans who will have it their way or no way at all? Just how do you work with someone like that? I suppose the country should just bend over and take it. Remember Gingrich and the Contract ON America, when the Republikans misread the country and thought they had a mandate to do whatever the heck they wanted? Keep it up and you will be voted out again. God I hope the Republikans nominate Bachmann or Palin, that would ensure another term for Obama and provide months and months of humor for the rest of the country.

    Soundlife
    I don’t know what economists YOU listen to, but you haven’t by any chance noticed how much healthier the country was BEFORE the Bush/Cheney tax cuts have you? The country is ecomonically healthy when we are ALL doing well, not just the rich.

  8. Soundlife says:

    newscrap my degree is in Economics so I look at our government’s budget issues with a grounding in Economics, not blind loyalty to either of the major ridiculous parties.
    LBJ removed social security from its lockbox and made its funds part of the general budget when he was trying to hide the actual costs of the Vietnam War.
    Since then presidents and congresses of both parties have put IOUs into the social security system as they blatantly raided the funds to pay for social programs and fund military adventures.
    The lack of economic education among our elected leaders is telling in the immense depth of the economic hole we now find ourselves.
    I blame Republicans and Democrats, as well as the voters who repeatedly elect them and re-elect them in the face of economic ruin…

  9. klthompson says:

    Who are these economists you mention? I do not know of one reputable economist who believes tax increases are the way out of the current mess created by spendthrift Democrat congresses. Give me one name. One caveat, he can’t be employed or dependent on the government for his job. Also, do not mention John Maynard Keynes, he died years ago. He was a failure then as now.

  10. aislander says:

    kitthompson: I’ve got to mention John Maynard (Paul) Krugman. HE seems to believe that tax increases, along with even MORE massive spending will be a tonic to the economy. Before I go on, I just noticed that you specified “reputable economist[s].” Sorry. You’re right…

  11. Soundlife says:

    Any homeowner can tell you that it is quite impossible to “spend your way out of debt.”
    The first rule when you find yourself trapped in a deep hole is to “stop digging.”
    We forget that when it comes to politics and economics

  12. KARDNOS says:

    “Soundlife says:
    July 5, 2011 at 3:25 pm
    “get rid of the ruinous Cheney/Bush tax cuts. Do that and we will be in “good” shape within two years”

    Obviously you know nothing of economics, and are simply another shrill for the extreme left.
    ——————————————————
    Soundlife says:
    July 5, 2011 at 4:40 pm
    newscrap my degree is in Economics so I look at our government’s budget issues with a grounding in Economics, not blind loyalty to either of the major ridiculous parties.
    ——————————
    Which Soundlife should we believe?

  13. KARDNOS says:

    “Soundlife says:
    July 5, 2011 at 5:21 pm
    Any homeowner can tell you that it is quite impossible to “spend your way out of debt.”
    The first rule when you find yourself trapped in a deep hole is to “stop digging.”
    We forget that when it comes to politics and economics”

    In case your degree in economics got in the way of your analogy…..The United States is not a homeowner. Government revenue is dependent on spending.

    Want proof? Look at what has happened since September 2008 when spending quit.

    My “degree” is in reality.

  14. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Krugman is a fraud. His political agenda drives his recycled theories.

    http://www.goodnessmovement.com/files/Download/keynes.pdf

  15. Soundlife says:

    Kardnos “…The United States is not a homeowner. Government revenue is dependent on spending.”

    You are correct that government revenue is dependent upon spending; however, most revenue must come from the private sector, or government funds will enter a self-enforcing decline.
    The more money the government borrows to fund deficit spending, the less money is available for businesses to borrow to fund growth or needed capital goods.
    This situation can lead to job loss requiring more government spending to fund unemployment, which further decreases available revenue.
    A large part of America’s current economic crisis is that private companies are finding it hard to borrow, and are sitting on their cash reserves because of the uncertainty created by the coming changes in health care.

  16. aislander says:

    Soundlife: KARD seems to be woefully ignorant on the subject of economics. I have tried to engage him on the most basic level of economic transactions, and he absolutely refuses to do so. I’d love for him to explain WHY the people and businesses that provide him with the things he needs do what they do. I’m one hundred percent certain they don’t do it out of love for KARDNOS…

  17. fatuous says:

    “are sitting on their cash reserves because of the uncertainty created by the coming changes in health care.”

    I’m not sure I buy that.

    I think they are sitting on cash, because they are not that confident that there won’t be a double dip and just waiting to see what’s is going to happen.

    The health care package should be beneficial to large companies. They can just pay the penalty and shift health care on to the government.

    Here is what some economists are saying about the Bush tax cuts.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/30/AR2010073004758.html

  18. Soundlife says:

    Fatuous, thank you for a great post with a great article reference. Far too many posters here are too hung up on party politics to appreciate the greater economic picture.

  19. Soundlife says:

    I hit the send instead of return.
    Large companies may well dump their employees on the Obamacare program as you suggest, however, it is too early to claim so with certainty. Most are still exploring the mandates and the fines and having their accountants run the numbers.
    We will not know the ramifications until the plan kicks in during 2014

  20. KARDNOS says:

    aislander – I was making money for people when you were still telling us how much you know. Did it occur to you that I’ve ignored many of your posts because your questions are arcane at best? In other words, the only one that understands the manure you spread is you.

  21. KARDNOS says:

    “nwcolorist says:
    July 5, 2011 at 4:19 pm
    No, the President needs to work with the Republicans in Congress.

    If you think 2010 was a bad year for the Dems, just wait until 2012″

    Which Republican bill has the President vetoed? I’ll give you a day or two to come up with the answer “NONE”.

  22. KARDNOS says:

    “Soundlife says:
    July 5, 2011 at 5:49 pm
    Kardnos “…The United States is not a homeowner. Government revenue is dependent on spending.”

    You are correct that government revenue is dependent upon spending; however, most revenue must come from the private sector, or government funds will enter a self-enforcing decline.”

    Now that sounds real impressive, Soundlife. A real degree went behind that statement.

    Are state employees – some 35,000 of them – the “private sector” or “government”? Tell the merchants of Olympia, along with the auto dealers and the real estate brokers that the state is spending too much money on its employees.

    All of the “financial wizards (self imposed, like aislander) are saying that everything will be better when you lower government workers wages, as well as teachers.

    How many workers are you going to lower their wages and still produce tax revenue to pay the bills, while you are lowering corporate tax rates and providing subsidies for corporate farms and oil companies that pollute and the taxpayers have to pick up the tab?

    This is a simple mathmatic equation.

  23. Soundlife says:

    Kardnos you are interjecting a strawman…usually a Republican trick.
    There are many more private sector employees in America than government employees; therefore, they tend to have a much greater effect on the economy.
    Wage elasticity, while difficult, is constantly practiced in the private sector in the form of layoffs.
    Employers use overtime requirements to help determine when to add employees, and lay off employees quickly at the first sign of economic decline. Employers could attempt to cut wages; however, in a free economy that valuable, skilled worker is free to take his training to a competitor.
    Government seldom lays off unneeded employees, generally hiding them in order to maintain staffing levels which determine supervisory pay scales.
    Government departments also tend to spend every dime so their budgets won’t be cut in the future.
    Once instituted, a government job is very hard to eliminate.
    Positions are dropped only when compelled and then where the damage will be most publicly felt in order to discourage thought of future cuts.
    Notice how municipalities always cut police and fire first when tax increases are refused?

  24. KARDNOS says:

    Soundlife – no strawman……REALITY. Government employees purchase goods and pay taxes just like the rest of society and THERE IS an attack on that sector of society.

    “More private than public employee”…..duuuuuuuh….really???? So why all the emphasis on cutting the salaries of the minority…..

    Oh…maybe I hit the nail on the head……huh?

    Employers use overtime requirements to help determine when to add employees, and lay off employees

    BULL FECES!!! There is a large company, rather well known in the market that pays overtime as opposed to hiring because it’s cheaper to pay time and a half than it is to hire someone and pay benefits.

    I though you were an Economic major????????????

    Notice how municipalities always cut police and fire first when tax increases are refused?

    Show us a case history of this assertion. Governmental budgeting allows for certain expenditures due to matching funds from federal sources. It would be ignorant to cut police and fire if you got matching funding from another source.

    You are throwing pitches in the dirt.

  25. KARDNOS says:

    “Once instituted, a government job is very hard to eliminate

    More BULL FECES. My spouse was “relocated” or “riffed” three times in two years.

    Do you have any more baseless assertions?

  26. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Soundlife- very well stated. There is no incentive in government to cut costs and come in under budget. Job preservation is a top priority, not efficiency or quality.

    Kard’s post was basically a socialist rant, arguing that government is the creator and foundation of wealth.

  27. Soundlife says:

    Kardnos “There is a large company, rather well known in the market that pays overtime as opposed to hiring because it’s cheaper to pay time and a half than it is to hire someone and pay benefits”
    It is cheaper temporarily to pay time and a half than to hire someone and pay benefits. Companies use the overtime as a measure to cut costs during uncertain times, or even hire temporary employees until production and costs justify adding an additional employee.
    Again this is basic economics and any business owner is quite familar with the concept.
    Unfortunately we are quite probably at least a couple of years from regaining any semblance of full employment in the American economy

  28. LarryFine says:

    I see Kard is still going hungry … now Aislander is eating his lunch… too… again…
    .
    Kerry J., it’s sad that we are still stuck in this cycle of democrat spending since they took control of writing the budget 5 years ago…
    hope?
    change?

    kooky

  29. Soundlife says:

    Kardnos, your wife being relocated or riffed three times over the past two years is actually a good sign that the state government is being more proactive than I had thought in these very difficult times.
    You have to remember that in a democratic society no one “owes” you a job. It is the investment of those hated capitalists risking their money in an effort to make even more that provides the job base to feed most of us and our families.
    For those who would compel or tax to continue unneeded jobs: do we really need buggy whip makers?
    In a free society we each have an obligation to ourselves and our families to keep ourselves marketable.

  30. aislander says:

    You know, KARD, I think you are being truthful when state that you have avoided answering my questions because YOU find them “arcane.” I believe the workings of the market (and the creation of wealth) ARE arcane to you. But the questions I posed are basic to most people, not mysterious, secret, or obscure. People provide goods and services to you, not because they like or care about YOU, but because they care about themselves. And THAT is a much more dependable motivation than the milk of human kindness that you seem to impute to government, because the truth is that government functionaries can’t care as much about you and your family as you do. They couldn’t even if they wanted to, and I’ll bet they don’t want to…

  31. “The more money the government borrows to fund deficit spending, the less money is available for businesses to borrow to fund growth or needed capital goods.”

    Theoretically perhaps, but it hasn’t been a primary factor since we discarded the gold standard and the government took control of the money printing press. Even in the over-extension of credit that created much of the crisis we’re in, there was no competition between private enterprise and the government for available dollars, even though the government had several trillion worth of debt to pay interest on.

    “I think they are sitting on cash, because they are not that confident that there won’t be a double dip and just waiting to see what’s is going to happen.”

    A more primary reason is because banks don’t have to loan money to be profitable. Banks are able to borrow money at next to zero from the Federal Reserve, invest it in 10 year treasury notes and earn 3% with no risk. In an unstable economy, where the default rate is still high, theirs no good reason to loan money when they can make a reasonable profit with no risk. This gravy-train situation for the banks needs fixing.

  32. aislander says:

    cirrus writes: “This gravy-train situation for the banks needs fixing.”

    Just another problem created BY government that some would have us believe requires MORE government to fix. Oh, wait. The Federal Reserve isn’t really part of government. Okay: just another problem created BY government and the Federal Reserve. So…let’s have MORE government AND give more power to the Federal Reserve. THAT’S the ticket!

    How about we dump the Federal Reserve and shrink government? Perhaps we could have a real currency again…

  33. KARDNOS says:

    Soundlife says:
    July 5, 2011 at 9:36 pm
    Kardnos, your wife being relocated or riffed three times over the past two years is actually a good sign that the state government is being more proactive than I had thought in these very difficult times.

    Welcome to reality. It looks like your “signs” are about two years out of sync. So what you are admitting is that you don’t know what is taking place in the market, but you love to expound on it…

  34. KARDNOS says:

    Someone tell aislander that Richard Nixon, a Conservative Republican, was responsible for eliminating the gold standard…..

    Economics genius, part 2….

    Like I said…..your “manure”. It was I that provided you the lesson on market demand and employment and you that were claiming the falsehood that wealthy people provide jobs, regardless of need.

    Remember my Paris Hilton example? You tried to come up with an analogy where she would hire an engineer for her staff…….

    I’ll copy and paste if need be…..

    Cirrus – you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of banking. The faster that we all quit doing business with commercial banks and join credit unions, the faster you’ll see their practices change.

  35. KARDNOS says:

    “Kard’s post was basically a socialist rant, arguing that government is the creator and foundation of wealth.”

    Considering I said nothing of the sort – Concerned Tacoma is either a 4th grade reading level or a plain liar.

  36. menopaws says:

    Hey Soundlife—TWO WARS–tax cuts……….You have a degree in economics? From where? My economics professors, or even a basic bookkeeping class understand the concept of accounts payable versus accounts receivable. TWO WARS not added to the budget picture until we elected an honest man who didn’t play tricks to hide the fundamental costs……..Remember when we were told the oil revenues from Iraq would cover the cost of that war? I do–by Paul Wolfowitz, who took his economic expertise to the World Bank where he crashed and burned…….and of course, Mr. Cheney whose friends from Blackwater made a fortune in Iraq……..Let’s be clear–econ 101–you don’t spend money you cannot expect to recoup in revenue……..So, please save your lectures and recognize that if we don’t raise revenue—we will NEVER climb out of this hole….And, if the Republicans continue to act like economic terrorists—this economy will crash and burn. Still waiting for this Congress to do something besides whine and threaten in front of the TV cameras…….That mandate they think they got in 2010 did NOT mean their control of ONE house of Congress means they can hold our economic security hostage. Their utter disregard for the welfare of the American people in their obsessive quest for power does not make them look like patriots or stateman……..It looks like a low end shakedown by a bunch of thugs.

  37. Roncella says:

    menopaws, try and re-read the posts that we are lucky to have to read by Soundlife.

    This person knows what they are talking about. Your narrow bias far left liberal beliefs, along with Kardnos and a few others are laughable to read after Soundlife clean the floor with all of you.

    The sad part is many liberals just can’t accept the truth, so they go onto personal attacks, and lies.

  38. menopaws says:

    Roncella I can read—-And, guess what, I took college level economics myself—so please don’t lecture me……..I have a good college education and read his posts…..He is wrong–so, take some classes yourself before you lecture anyone……..Every single point I made was based in fact….did or did not the Bush adminstration claim that the war costs would be paid by oil revenues? Did they keep the full war cost on the books when they submitted budgets? ..They did not include war costs in ANY budgets submitted to Congress…..they did claim that oil revenues would pay for the War in Iraq……..Those are facts—hit the internet and check…..My “far left liberal” beliefs, such as they are, are based on knowledge…

  39. Misunderestimated says:

    Menopaws, your personal attacks on Soundlife have no basis in fact. I did not see anywhere where he was promoting or defending Bush/Cheney. Your hatred for Bush/Cheney seems to have made you miss the point of the article and the majority of the posts here.
    You might also click on and read the link left by Fatuous. Economists from both sides of the political spectrum have very similar views on how we should go forward.

  40. aislander says:

    KARDNOS: You mean ole wage and price controls Nixon? I have never been a fan, nor am I a Republican or an apologist for Republicans. They have done LOTS that I disagree with, but they have the redeeming virtue on not being Democrats. That doesn’t mean, however, that I am not working to install conservatives in the hierarchy of the Republican party. I am.

    Why would Paris hire an engineer for her “staff,” when she can hire an engineering firm that hires engineers? Your criticism of that market transaction makes no sense to me. A market is made up of millions of such transactions. Please give me your specific criticism rather than seeming to talk in Polago-like riddles…

  41. aislander says:

    …and Nixon can by no means be described as “conservative!” In addition to eliminating the gold standard, as you mentioned, and instituting wage and price controls, as I cited, he inflicted the EPA on America, an agency with far too expansive a mandate. Conservative? Hardly!

  42. Roncella says:

    menopaws, Your college education does not make you an expert about anything.

    What you are infected with is the Bush Hate Syndrome. I have read your posts in the past and you can’t seem to see anything except through the Bush Syndrome.

  43. aislander says:

    KARD writes: “…were claiming the falsehood that wealthy people provide jobs, regardless of need.”

    I said no such thing. I DID say that they don’t let their money lie idle, and that their economic actions provide jobs. But your use of the word “need” interests me. Whose need are you referring to? If a rich person (or corporation) needs to have a job done (either short term of long term), he will hire someone to do that job. If you mean the need of someone to HAVE a job, then no. Why would someone hire someone else other than to satisfy his own needs andinterests?

  44. “I said no such thing. I DID say that they don’t let their money lie idle, and that their economic actions provide jobs.”

    so those offshore bank accounts don’t exist???????

  45. “Roncella says:
    July 6, 2011 at 9:27 am
    menopaws, Your college education does not make you an expert about anything.”

    NOW THAT is funny!!!!!!! Roncella must have selected a brain surgeon without a college degree. LOL

  46. aislander – if you don’t know that “wage and price controls” were really “wage controls”…..you weren’t old enough to live through the era.

    If “wage controls” (what is happening today by union busting) isn’t Conservative, then we have another new definition of Conservative today…..

  47. “No, the President needs to work with the Republicans in Congress”

    No, what the President needs to do is what he did last week, tell the republicans in Congress to DO THEIR JOBS!

    Everyone knows that the GOP is working to hold back the economy for political reasons (treason in my opinion) and the President needs to hold them accountable, which he will do.

  48. Roncella Your beck/fox indoctrination does not make you an expert about anything.

    What you are infected with is the Obama Hate Syndrome. I have read your posts in the past and you can’t seem to see anything except through the Obama Syndrome

  49. “menopaws says:
    July 6, 2011 at 6:43 am
    Hey Soundlife—TWO WARS–tax cuts……….You have a degree in economics? From where? My economics professors, or even a basic bookkeeping class understand the concept of accounts payable versus accounts receivable. TWO WARS not added to the budget picture until we elected an honest man who didn’t play tricks to hide the fundamental costs”

    There is the truth of what happened. It doesn’t take a degree in economics to know that if you increase the cost of doing business without increasing revenue, the end result is deficit.

    When the Conservatives resort to “Bush and Cheney bashing” and “leftist this and that”……the conversation is obvious…..we are heading for the three word mantra phrase phase.

  50. Menopaws, your personal attacks on Soundlife have no basis in fact.

    There were no “personal attacks” and every single statement made by menopaws was truthful and to the point.
    Maybe thats why you rightists think it was an ‘attack’?
    The truth is frighting to you people, I know but…..

  51. KARDNOS says:
    July 5, 2011 at 8:34 pm
    “nwcolorist says:
    July 5, 2011 at 4:19 pm
    No, the President needs to work with the Republicans in Congress.

    If you think 2010 was a bad year for the Dems, just wait until 2012″

    Which Republican bill has the President vetoed? I’ll give you a day or two to come up with the answer “NONE”.

    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/07/05/the-political-cycle/#ixzz1RLYdkEnG

    STILL waiting……

  52. How do the rightists here, and we all know who they are, lie, blanantly lie, day after day after day about every subject, then make the claim they have more morals and are better people than everyone else?

    I do not understand how anybody can lie the way they do, it staggers the honest man when confronted with the out right lies.

    The answer to why their so called questions go unanswered is based in their lies, how can one answer a question or engage in a conversation with a person that will tell the kinds of horrible lies they tell?

    Playing a game where one side gets to make up the rules and change them at will is a hard thing to do and those on the left STILL come out on top!

  53. What meaningful legislation has The House of Representatives passed since being sworn in on in January 2011?

  54. I would like an honest answer to this question from a hard core rightist, say ailander or her many names,

    “Name one economic policy by the GOP that has worked in favor of the average middle class wage earner in America”.

    An honest question like this demands an honest answer, lets see if the rightists have the stones.

  55. xtp – a certain amount is lieing….a certain amount is ignorance coupled by an unwillingness to learn the truth.

  56. xtp….how can you be me and me be you when we are posting at the same time?????

    Oh yeah…I forgot. You have two computers going at the same time over different servers.

  57. As to the “Wage and Price Freeze”….

    Having been a part of a labor negotiation when Nixon put said “freeze” into action, the negotiators for The News Tribune just said….”sorry, wage and price freeze…nothing we can do about it”….

    Now, having been a consumer, we were supposed to report any retail price increases we saw. I think Nixon appointed Helen Waite to that position because when you saw a retailer profiteering you could go to Helen Waite.

  58. Misunderestimated says:

    Sad to watch what had been a great discussion degenerate into party talking points

  59. And you and your fellow rightists are the cause misunder, as always.
    Look no further than the first few posts……not that facts and truth will ever sink in…..

  60. “Roncella says:
    July 6, 2011 at 9:27 am
    What you are infected with is the Bush Hate Syndrome. I have read your posts in the past and you can’t seem to see anything except through the Bush Syndrome.

    TALKING POINT

  61. xtp855 says:
    July 6, 2011 at 10:24 am
    “Name one economic policy by the GOP that has worked in favor of the average middle class wage earner in America”.

    DISCUSSION POINT

  62. A dicussion point the right flees from every single time.
    They know they can’t answer it with any degree of honesty without showing the failure that their ideoligy really is.

  63. menopaws says:

    Hey thanks to all of you who understand that I try to speak the facts……….I do get angry when history gets altered to suit a political agenda……….You have every right to disagree with Obama–but, he is NOT a liar. After the Bush-Cheney years that is a big deal…….the right wing cannot change the facts and they should show some (Roncella’s phrase!) personal responsibility for their mistakes. Don’t hold your breath waiting for it…..It is always someone else’s fault….the Republican party used to be composed of some serious thinkers and fiscally responsible people………the current crop needs some basic bookkeeping skills and much better manners………Signing off this topic–thanks for the support..

  64. Roncella says:

    menopaws Your Facts are worped and twisted and not true, in most of the ;posts I have read. But if you think your right about your opinions, thats all that matters, Right ???

    Just keep drinking the Obama kool Aid its very hot outside put alot ice cubes in your Obama Kool Aid it will taste better.

  65. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, I guess you think your Mr. Brains around here.

    Anyone who post their thoughts and opinions that is not a Far left Liberal/Progressive, Socialist, as you most certainly are, gets your snarky remarks back at them.

    You see everything in tunnel vision. your posts are long winded and you are like a knat that will not go away, you go on and on and on and on and on and on.

    I Remember living through the Carter Years. It was only 4 years but it felt like 10 years.

    I remember living through the Reagan Years, it was great. Jobs everywhere, stock market doing great, real estate market booming, Business expansion was everywhere. Americans felt good about their Country and Themselves, it was awesome, it was great.

    Now we have President Obama and the good feeling has long gone because of high unemployment, 4.00 for a gallon of gas, businesses closing their doors, real estate values going down and down, food and utility prices going up and up,
    and yet you liberal/dems. can hardly wait to vote for Obama for 4 more years, amazing !!!!!

  66. aislander says:

    KARDNOS writes: “If “wage controls” (what is happening today by union busting) isn’t Conservative, then we have another new definition of Conservative today…..”

    What you don’t know about conservatism is (to paraphrase myself) a lot. Conservatives don’t want government control of prices OR wages. That’s why we oppose the minimum wage! We also oppose caps on wages. Remuneration levels should be arrived at by the parties involved, the employer and employee, or the contractor and the person doing the contracting, NOT by bureaucrats who could be thousands of miles away.

    Of course wage and price controls were really only wage controls. Any item subject to price control could have its name changed and–voila!–a “new” product, not subject to the rule. That just illustrates the idiocy of having the government’s trying to control economic activity. People are very clever at avoiding being controlled. That may have something to do with those offshore accounts you seem to hate so much…

  67. aislander says:

    KARDNOS: I responded to xtp’s tired old “point” a long time ago with a serious dissertation on the free market and its workings and how controlled markets work less well to the extent that they are controlled, and so on. I did that before I realized who and what xtp was. My response was a waste of energy and was akin to giving a token of respect to something I might find on the bottom of my shoe. Now I ignore him…

  68. KARDNOS says:

    “Conservatives don’t want government control of prices OR wages.”

    Then why be anti-union? Let the workers decide.

    Next?

  69. KARDNOS says:

    Roncella:

    Mr. Brains, if you like…..but I prefer to be recognized as someone that does my homework (since I’m sitting in front of a WORLD of information) and someone that avoids the political namecalling and just plain lies….

    You call me long-winded, and then proceed to add an additional 190 words (counted as you would for a typing test) that are nothing short of hyperbole, heresay and just plain lies.

    Let’s start with your claim of $4.00 gasoline. It has not happened during Obama’s watch, other than select areas – Hawaii for instance. On the other hand, it hit $4.25 in Washington during the Bush era.

    You claim “jobs everywhere during the Reagan era” Unemployment reached over 9% during Reagan’s first term. Lie or just plain ignorance? You choose.

    At the risk of being long-winded, I’ll stop with just those two issues. Anyone in their right mind knows you are nothing more than a shill for whatever you can pick up on Rush Limbaugh’s website. The difference is, Rush is a comedian, therefore when caught lying he can say “it was a joke”.

  70. aislander says:

    I’m NOT anti-union. I AM anti-abuses by unions, and I am anti-government’s siding with unions. I don’t want employers abusing workers and I don’t want union thuggery. I say enforce basic laws and let the parties work it out…

  71. KARDNOS says:

    “People are very clever at avoiding being controlled. That may have something to do with those offshore accounts you seem to hate so much… ”

    No, aislander, the offshore accounts are for tax evasion. It’s funny, but when Charlie Rangle rented an offshore property, he was drilled for tax evasion, but when a wealthy Republican sets up an offshore bank account to evade taxes, it’s a stroke a genius.

    When are all these alleged patriots going to pay a proportionate share of the costs of the infrastructure they love to use?

  72. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Sure, let the PRIVATE SECTOR workers decide. Public sector employees should not have the ability to unionize. Conflicts of interest abound.

    And unions are a form of wage control. Your arguement there makes no sense. They effect the natural up and down of the market wages by locking in salaries and benefits which until the recent battles never went down, regardless of the market. They are poorly tied to performance, if at all.

    And Pelosi raised min wage at the worst time in history. Denying youth summer jobs, preventing families from earning a second wage, destroying unskilled labor. Great job dems!

  73. KARDNOS says:

    “Roncella says:
    July 6, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    “I Remember living through the Carter Years. It was only 4 years but it felt like 10 years.”

    Tell us what was so difficult about the Carter years. I’m betting you avoid the question.

    I have friends that made serious money on rental property during the Carter inflationary years. They had capital to invest and rode the waves.

    I worked for what was a very successful newspaper group during the Carter era. Our sales increases were historical each year. My earnings increased about 200% from 1976 to 1980. We had a great product and the #2 market in the State of Washington. I bought a house in 1976 and sold it in 1978 for a 63% increase in value. I bought another in 1978 and in 1979 was able to leverage the equity for a business investment. My value had increased 50% in less than 18 months.

    OK…tell us what was so terrible about the Carter years…. You can see this “socialist, leftist” made a bundle, as did his “socialist, leftist” friends.

  74. KARDNOS says:

    “concernedtacoma7 says:
    July 6, 2011 at 4:49 pm
    Sure, let the PRIVATE SECTOR workers decide. Public sector employees should not have the ability to unionize. Conflicts of interest abound.

    What happened to “Conservatives don’t want to control wages”???????

  75. KARDNOS says:

    “And unions are a form of wage control.”

    Tell me of one union that didn’t want more money for its workers…..

    You are spewing nothing but anti-union rhetoric.

  76. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, letterman, stewart, sat. night live are all comedian type shows.

    Rush has millions of listeners daily, without guests, just commentary by him and the folks that call into his show.

    I am not a daily listener of Rush however with the millions of folks who do listen to him daily I would say he is a heck of a lot smarter than you’ll ever be, and much more successful than you.

  77. KARDNOS says:

    “And Pelosi raised min wage at the worst time in history”

    Again…you don’t want to “control wages” but you don’t want the lowest paid workers to get an increase……

    The hypocrisy is boundless!!!!!!!

  78. “I remember living through the Reagan Years, it was great. Jobs everywhere, stock market doing great, real estate market booming, Business expansion was everywhere. Americans felt good about their Country and Themselves, it was awesome, it was great.”

    Clearly roncella spent the 80’s in a drunken stuper.

  79. KARDNOS says:

    “Roncella says:
    July 6, 2011 at 4:56 pm
    KARDNOS, letterman, stewart, sat. night live are all comedian type shows.

    Rush has millions of listeners daily, without guests, just commentary by him and the folks that call into his show.

    I am not a daily listener of Rush however with the millions of folks who do listen to him daily I would say he is a heck of a lot smarter than you’ll ever be, and much more successful than you.

    Well….there is another lie or demonstration of ignorance. Rush Limbaugh had Presidents Bush and Bush on his show. Thus he MUST have guests.

    As to the “money he has made”…..so has Vince McMahon. He puts on a show that is totally staged and has nothing to do with truth and the rubes just eat it up and love to give him money. I don’t believe him either.

    One of these days I’d love to see Rush’s books to see his cost of doing business. Buying time on all those stations must cost a bunch of money.

  80. Aislander wrote,
    I responded to xtp’s tired old “point” a long time ago with a serious dissertation on the free market and its workings and how controlled markets work less well to the extent that they are controlled, and so on. I did that before I realized who and what xtp was. My response was a waste of energy and was akin to giving a token of respect to something I might find on the bottom of my shoe. Now I ignore him… ”

    You madam are nothing more than the patholicial liar that we all know you to be.

  81. KARDNOS says:

    Roncella:

    google “Rush Limbaugh Interviews” for a list of stories on interviews he has done on his show.

  82. KARDNOS says:

    Tell us what was so difficult about the Carter years. I’m betting you avoid the question.
    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/07/05/the-political-cycle/#ixzz1RND9FZHx

    Still waiting for Roncella’s answer…..which will never happen.

  83. Ron gee Rush is so smart married 4 times, addicted to pain pills. wow one smart individual. I know he has an excuse for each and every divorce and his addiction. Isn’t that like the people you hate? you know the ones who blame other people or maybe is Rush’s other circumstances

  84. concernedtacoma7 says:

    oh- He is not in elected office. Apples and oranges. Nice try though. And Rush did not push those problems onto the state. He has no crack babies funded by the taxpayer, he pays for his own rehab, and is ex’s probably get more per month than every poster on this thread combined.

    That is individual responsibility. Can you comprehend that?

    It may be morally unsound, but his problem, not mine or yours.

  85. aislander says:

    What was so difficult about the Carter years? You mean other than the recession, sky-high interest rates, inflation, weak-kneed foreign policy that resulted in the Arab oil embargo, skyrocketing gas prices, and precipitated the Islamic revolution that is still going on? Oh, and the dismantling of our military? I know I’ve forgotten something, and Carter did some deregulating, particularly of the airline industry, which was good. Otherwise, it was peachy…

  86. boy is someone angry???? touch a nerve? rude along with it. “can you comprehend that” never said it was my or your problem. Maybe you should reread the post. Just made a statement he is not the brightest person around. He has a lack of respect for other human beings. Usually anyone with such a total lack of respect for others does not respect themselves. Maybe just maybe that is why he has been married 4 times and addicted to pain pills or should I say addicted to drugs

  87. KARDNOS says:

    “aislander says:
    July 6, 2011 at 6:22 pm
    What was so difficult about the Carter years? You mean other than the recession, sky-high interest rates, inflation, weak-kneed foreign policy that resulted in the Arab oil embargo, skyrocketing gas prices, and precipitated the Islamic revolution that is still going on? Oh, and the dismantling of our military?

    Recession? Like what we had with Reagan and GWBush?

    Sky high interest rates? Yep….but people were lending, unlike today with the low interest rates. Houses were $40,000….not $400,000. I thought the free market should get to set its prices?????

    Foreign policy was the reason for the Embargo? Not the oil companies in bed with the Arabs and fixing prices by making us wait in line for gas?

    Gas prices? After GWBush, the oil man, hit the all time high a few years ago, you’d think that the Conservatives would shut up about oil prices….

    Precipitated (1. to hasten the occurrence of; bring about prematurely, hastily, or suddenly) the “Islamic Revolution”……and all this time I’ve been hearing that they hated us since Mohammed walked the Earth

    Dismantling our military that spends more than the next 24 countries combine????????? Now this couldn’t be a Conservative misrepresentation of – Donald Rumsfeld (born July 9, 1932) is an American politician and businessman who served as the 13th Secretary of Defense from 1975 to 1977″ -who downsized the military AFTER the Vietnam withdrawal, which is quite typical during post war situations………

  88. KARDNOS says:

    Concerned – so….since John Edwards is not in elected office. And did not push those problems onto the state. He has no crack babies funded by the taxpayer….

    Now David Vitter, on the other hand…..oh….nevermind, you’ll have excuses for him, too…..LOL

  89. KARDNOS says:

    I’m beginning to see that the only way a Conservative can be successful is if the bank will lend him cheap money, if gas prices are “low” (whatever that may mean at the moment) If the Islamics are not in revolution and our defense spending is high.

    They don’t seem to have solutions to recession, as Congress is proving daily.

  90. KARDNOS says:

    ohmymy – as a recovered “addict”, I can safely tell you that the quantities that Rush was havng other people purchase for him (personal responsibility) was beyond “pain relief”.

  91. I’m sure it was i was making a point for Ron happy to hear you are recovered.

  92. bold and BOLD caps from lardy. Quite impressive….

  93. aislander says:

    Boy, KARD sure told ME! Trouble is: I’ve heard all that sloganeering before, and it is no more valid now than it was the first time. Or the 30th. Or the 300th…

    Oh, and we DO have solutions to the recession, but our formulas haven’t been tried since the last time they worked so well, during the depression of 1920-21. Libs cry a river because Keynesian “stimulus” hasn’t been done thoroughly enough. Well NOBODY has cut taxes and spending the way Coolidge and Harding did then, because there’s nothing in THAT for government or its droids…

  94. Reads like a personal attack to me.

    “KARDNOS says:
    JULY 5, 2011 AT 5:24 PM
    “Soundlife says:
July 5, 2011 at 3:25 pm
”get rid of the ruinous Cheney/Bush tax cuts. Do that and we will be in “good” shape within two years”
    Obviously you know nothing of economics, and are simply another shrill for the extreme left.
——————————————————


    Soundlife says:
July 5, 2011 at 4:40 pm
newscrap my degree is in Economics so I look at our government’s budget issues with a grounding in Economics, not blind loyalty to either of the major ridiculous parties.
——————————
Which Soundlife should we believe?”

    Moderators?

  95. LarryFine says:

    CLEARLY… L.H.’s alts have a comprehension problem… expected, not kooky…

  96. KARDNOS says:

    Sage1 (who took that name from another commenter from another newspaper) –

    If Soundlife can’t stand the scrutiny of Soundlife’s own comments that contradict each other, as I pointed out……

    I’m sure that Soundlife would have mentioned something to me directly in our extensive dialog on this thread.

    Considering the lack of credibility that it takes to clone a moniker from another person on another media, and that you contribute nothing to the subject matter of the LTE, it appears rather evident that you, like LF are here for no other reason than to act like a fool.

    Well done.

  97. KARDNOS says:

    aislander…what “sloganeering”? Because I answered each of your assertions with a counter, that is a “slogan”????

    I’m thinking a date with the dictionary might be in order.

    SLOGANEERING – –verb (used without object)
    2. to create or use slogans, especially in an effort to change public opinion.

    Since I used no slogans, “sloganeering” is a misrepresentation of my comment. (Conservatives go for misrepresentation when all else fails)

    I hope StagedOne enjoyed my bold/ital

  98. KARDNOS says:

    Oh….and Staged One….the next time you try to make an issue with me, at least have the common courtesty to copy and paste my comments correctly and attribute to me that which I said and attribute to others what THEY said….

    Unless…of course…your entire MO was to misrepresent from the start.

    Then…advise your cheerleader so that LF won’t look like a complete fool for appauding your mistake.

  99. Islander,

    “week kneed response”

    The Arab Oil Embargo was an attempt by the Saudis to force the US to end its support of Israel.

    Carter REFUSED, and gas was rationed.

    Your ‘solutions to the recession” = deregulation and tax breaks for the rich are what got us here in the first place,

  100. SadujTogracse says:

    sage1, better beware Kardnos is “telling” on you by copying and pasting your comment onto another website!!! LMAO

    It really doesn’t get more pathetic than that.

  101. aislander says:

    xring: Please don’t put quotation marks around a misspelling and attribute it to me. Oh, and you left the hyphen out of the adjectival phrase. I wouldn’t point that out except for the attribution…

  102. aislander says:

    KARDNOS: Your “counters” were ALL assertions in the form of slogans that we’ve all heard before. Sorry, but they’re not persuasive…

  103. Roncella says, “I remember living through the Reagan Years, it was great..,”
    blah, blah, blah. It’s too distasteful to even repeat the remainder of Roncella’s mindless nonsense in a quote.

    Like Kardnos and his friends, I’ll add my name to the list of socialist/leftists who took advantage of the Carter years to make a bundle in rental real estate. But wouldn’t you know, good things always come to an end.., Along came Reagan with his tax reform, curtailing my depreciation expenses, expanding the alternative minimum tax, removing the deduction for consumer loans, raising SSI and payroll taxes, discarding income tax averaging, and worst of all for an investor, raising the capital gains tax.

    Good years, those Reagan years.., My -$SS

  104. KARDNOS says:

    aislander……making it up as you go, huh?

  105. KARDNOS says:

    Blogging is often demonstrated by taking text/info from one media source and putting it on another, as reference. (See Drudge)

    Does TheSad have a clue? Sadly, no

  106. islander
    “week kneed response” the misspelling us mine.
    The attribution of was ‘weak kneed response’

    The rest of the post stands.

  107. KARDNOS says:

    aislander – as an old advertising pro, allow me to help….

    slogans are usually short phrases with limited information…..three words are the norm….

    “no new taxes” is a great example.

  108. “Voodoo Economics” is a favorite of mine.

  109. I wonder if aislander and roncella can remember the golden economy of the Nixon/Ford years?
    Or did mean old Carter ruin it all by his self?

    I’m guessing at least one of them will do what they always do, lie about it.

  110. Ah, yes….”Where’s The Beef?”

    “I Have No Beef With Nixon.” …. six words….

  111. aislander says:

    If you repeat a tired old mantra often enough, it ceases to be a persuasive argument and becomes a slogan–like a word that ceases to have meaning when repeated over and over and over. And heaven forfend that I stray from the strict usage of “mantra!”

  112. aislander says:

    …but you were correct about the “limited information” part…

  113. “aislander……making it up as you go, huh?”

    Why would she change?

  114. Roncella says:

    xtp855, I can remember both the Great Economies of Clinton and Reagan.
    In Clintons case he worked with a Republican Congress as Reagan worked with the Democrats in Congress. Both were successful in keeping a healthy economy running like a fine watch.

    Believe me there is no comparison to the Carter and Obama Economies which both are equally awful and depressing.

  115. KARDNOS says:

    “aislander says:
    July 7, 2011 at 9:21 am
    If you repeat a tired old mantra often enough, it ceases to be a persuasive argument and becomes a slogan”

    like “Obama is a Kenyan”?

  116. How about that great Nixon economy aislander?
    Make something up about that and how Carter is to blame for it.

  117. KARDNOS says:

    Still waiting for Roncella to specifically say what his problem was with the Carter era

  118. KARDNOS says:

    A real economist would recognize that the Carter era was an extention of post-war inflation, something that happens after every war. The unemployment was usually workers returning from the military, after being drafted.

  119. There was a time that the Democratic Party actually did stand for the working man. But that was many decades ago when they figured out that the real money wasn’t in unions but in the owners. In the past three decades only Poppy Bush was willing to point out the sheer voodoo in the prevailing economic theory – and he shut up about it as soon as he got a seat on the Reagan ride.

    To paraphrase Gore Vidal – there are only two right wings of one Party, the Money Party.

  120. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, You have got to be serious. Were you out of the Country during the 4 Long, long long years of Carter ??

    Carter went from one mess to the other solving nothing all during his Presidency.

    The Nations morale was at an all time low. Iran holding hostages, made a fool out of Carter, and played him like a violin.

    Gas lines were long and stressful, even and odd days for gasing your car, the economy slowing and everything was falling apart.

    I remember fearing for my job at the time, as things just went down hill fast with Carter as President.

    I never figured I would live long enough to have a worse President than Carter, but I was Wrong, Obama is actually making Carter look good.

  121. SadujTogracse says:

    If Carter is thier measure of a successful President then no wonder they are drooling over Obama!

  122. roncella, was the economy in great shape when Carter took office?
    It’s a yes or no question.

    Was the economy in great shape when Obama took office?
    Yes or no question.

    You are living a world all your own with the raygun nonsense and i doubt your delusions will ever change, no matter the facts, so I won’t waste my time.

    But do us a favor and try to see reason on the Carter thing……just try it, see if you can manage it.

  123. I see ailander has broken out the saduj handle after taking quite the beating.

  124. “Roncella says:
    July 7, 2011 at 10:08 am
    KARDNOS, You have got to be serious. Were you out of the Country during the 4 Long, long long years of Carter ??

    Carter went from one mess to the other solving nothing all during his Presidency.

    The Nations morale was at an all time low. Iran holding hostages, made a fool out of Carter, and played him like a violin.

    Gas lines were long and stressful, even and odd days for gasing your car, the economy slowing and everything was falling apart.

    I remember fearing for my job at the time, as things just went down hill fast with Carter as President.

    I never figured I would live long enough to have a worse President than Carter, but I was Wrong, Obama is actually making Carter look good.

    Well….we’re getting close to specifics. The gas lines have already been explained, so I’ll not be redundant..

    Iran hostages – Hmmm…..should we have “nuked ‘em”, as the Chickenhawks cried? Doesn’t do much for the hostages, does it? Again, like 9/11, a handful of terrorists held the US hostage and brought it to its knees. Why did we have an embassy in Iran anyway? Oh…that’s right…the Conservatives of the US back the Shah……and….well….you know the rest….. but for those that don’t remember:

    In Iran, the hostage taking was widely seen as a blow against the U.S, and its influence in Iran, its perceived attempts to undermine the Iranian Revolution, and its long-standing support of the Shah of Iran, recently overthrown by the revolution. The Shah had been restored to power in a 1953 coup against a democratically-elected nationalist Iranian government organized by the CIA at the American Embassy

    As to fearing for your job, Roncella……were you a CIA spy or something serious in the Federal Government to have the President of the US threaten your job so much?

  125. SadujTogracse says:

    How was that Iran hostage thing solved again? Oh yeah just one minute after a REAL President was sworn in, they were released. So Reagan did in one minute what Carter couldn’t do in 444 days. Now I’ll wait as Kard keep posting about how “great” Carter was.

  126. “How was that Iran hostage thing solved again?”

    Ronnie raygun traded them for guns and cocaine, did you forget that fact?
    Negotiating with terrorists, another great raygun ‘legacy’.

  127. “I never figured I would live long enough to have a worse President than Carter, but I was Wrong”

    Yep, bush the failure lowed that bar to a new low. One that I hope will never be reached again. (Nixon of course was far worse than Carter)
    But I suspect if any of the current repulikans get elected…it will be.

  128. SadujTogracse says:

    Uh wrong hostage incident there xtp855, try to keep up. Either that or read a history book.

    Iran-contra affair was not the same as the hostage incident mentioned above that started on Nov 4 ’79.

  129. KARDNOS says:

    Various allegations have been made over the years concerning a deal between the Reagan kitchen cabinet and Iran, in order to delay the release of the hostages until after the U.S. election of 1980. Although Senate and House investigations in the 1990s declared the allegations to be unfounded, the conspiracy’s existence, or lack thereof, remains a subject of debate. The exact nature of the allegations lies in a potential violation of the International Commerce Acts of 1798 which prohibit any private citizen or party from negotiating with a foreign power in matters of national policy or military action. It is alleged by political opponents that the Reagan campaign, or one of his election campaign staffers, communicated with the Iranian government and asked them to extend the hostage crisis long enough to ensure that he won the 1980 elections. The main cause for inquiry was the seeming coincidence of his inauguration and the hostages’ release on the same day, January 20, 1981.

    Now, unless Reagan was moonlighting on Innaugral Day and that was a stand in that we saw with Nancy all day, I’d say it’s pretty safe to say that someone was negotiating without legal access.

    Following this miraculous event and its timing…..

    “The Iran–Contra affair[1] (Persian: ایران-کنترا, Spanish: caso Irán-contras) was a political scandal in the United States that came to light in November 1986. During the Reagan administration, senior Reagan administration officials and President Reagan secretly facilitated the sale of arms to Iran, the subject of an arms embargo.”

    Interesting how Reagan and his people had so much access to terrorists in Iran, huh?

  130. SadujTogracse says:

    Kardnos with an unfounded (his word) conspiracy theory blaming Reagan before he even took office, LMAO! But I give Kardnos credit for at least knowing that Iran-contra and this hostage event were 2 separate issues. That’s pretty bad xtp855 when Kardnos can out-history you!!!

  131. KARDNOS says:

    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Iran_hostage_crisis

    Yawn…..it’s not my style to make things up…..as others on this thread would do.

    Those who point the finger at others, have three pointing back at them.

  132. aislander says:

    Sorry, xring, but the missing hyphen was still within the quotation marks attributing the statement to me. The hyphen WAS in the original. All I’m saying is: if you’re going to quote me, quote me accurately…

  133. “Uh wrong hostage incident there xtp855, try to keep up.”

    No it isn’t, maybe you should get that history book, and not the GOP press version of history.
    For the love of all that good and holy can just one of you rightists tell the truth?!

  134. aislander says:

    So…SadujTogracse…I KNOW that you weren’t saying that the hostages held in the US embassy in Teheran from 4 Nov ’79 until inauguration day 1981 and those held by various Iranian-backed terrorist groups in the mid-1980s were the same people or even the same crisis–right? Sum-one seems to believe that is the case, it seems. Check the bottom of your shoe…

  135. SadujTogracse says:

    Kard, you’re right you didn’t make up the FACT that your source says “Although Senate and House investigations in the 1990s declared the allegations to be unfounded, the conspiracy’s existence, or lack thereof, remains a subject of debate.” Notice the word CONSPIRACY?

    xtp855 please stop, you’re embarrassing yourself, seriously. The first incident of US sending arms to Iran in the Iran-contra affair was in 1985, 4 years after the incident we are talking about ended. I would say take a remedial history class, but even that would be above your level. And you constantly rant about the truth? LOL!

  136. xtp401/402 is just the resident troll.

    Funny how tp tries to point out that certain people offer nothing to the conversation, when she never offers anything herself.

    Here it is… LOL

  137. aislander says:

    sage1: As a son of the South, I have to say that I don’t really know xtp, but he/she really can’t seem to help him/herself…bless its heart! Ask a Southerner what I just said…

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