Letters to the Editor

Your views in 200 words or less

JOBS: Automation + immigration = unemployment

Letter by Lyle Laws, Puyallup on June 24, 2011 at 1:15 pm with 126 Comments »
June 24, 2011 1:15 pm

Between illegal aliens streaming into America to do jobs that many Americans could do but would rather not do because they can live about as well by letting the government provide for them, and the fact that automation is reducing the need for workers, it isn’t surprising that so many people are unemployed.

Not too many years ago when someone pulled into a service station, one or two attendants came right out to fill the tank, check the oil and clean the windows. Now, with access to debit or credit cards, one employee can tend to 15 to 20 customers. One backhoe operator can dig more gas or cable trenches than 50 pick-and-shovel workers. And when was the last time someone called a government agency or a large private business and was answered by a live operator?

The bottom line is that about the only jobs that are not now under the attack of automation are the manual labor jobs that illegal immigrants are eager to do because even those jobs offer them a better way of life.

I really don’t blame them, but if our government doesn’t put a stop to this invasion, where does it all end? This is a nonpartisan issue because Presidents Bush and Obama are both guilty of failing to secure our borders.

Tags:
,
Leave a comment Comments → 126
  1. tree_guy says:

    Lyle, this is the type of letter to the editor that I really like to read, a solid reasoned opinion with a lot of truth to it.

    Yes, automation and illegal immigration are replacing a lot of available work but there is a third important factor and that is the pricing and regulations involved with the hiring decision. High costs involved with L&I, Unemployment insurance, minimum wage requirements, and pretty soon government enforced paid sick leave and obamacare are laying waste to the one time healthy entry level labor market in the USA. As these costs escalate then the pressure for employers to substitute automation or gray market labor will increase.

  2. Grassisgreener says:

    tree_guy, you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Automation and illegal immigration are just two of the many problems contributing to unemployment numbers.

  3. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Automation is a “problem”?

    So lets all throw away the items that make our society more efficient. Lets wash our clothes by hand. Lets push all that big contruction equipment in the Sound and have hundreds, if not thousands, of men pounding out rocks by hand to build roads. Lets get more people on the farms harvesting wheat by hand.

    Instead of innovating and creating new ways to do old things better, lets go back to Stone Age!

  4. aislander says:

    concernedtacoma7: Sounds as though you have described “green” jobs perfectly. And the stone age is exactly where many (most?) lefty environmentalists would prefer to have us be, which may explain why the Obama admin has been so feckless in dealing with the economy. After all, an economy that doesn’t produce anything doesn’t pollute anything…

  5. It seems Obama isn’t the only one completely ignorant of economics. Yes Lyle, let’s become more inefficient, that will really raise everyone’s living standards. Progress will be measured in decades, not years. The best example of how stupid this letter is is an anecdote about Milton Friedman. “At one of our dinners, Milton recalled traveling to an Asian country in the 1960s and visiting a worksite where a new canal was being built. He was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, the workers had shovels. He asked why there were so few machines. The government bureaucrat explained: ‘You don’t understand. This is a jobs program.’ To which Milton replied: ‘Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.'”

  6. alindasue says:

    concernedtacoma7 said, “So lets all throw away the items that make our society more efficient. Lets wash our clothes by hand. Lets push all that big contruction equipment in the Sound and have hundreds, if not thousands, of men pounding out rocks by hand to build roads. Lets get more people on the farms harvesting wheat by hand.”

    Note though that the cost of living was also much lower in those days. It costs a lot of money (and energy) to purchase and maintain all our modern gadgets and machines. They do make life easier but that ease does also come with its prices.

  7. We’ve lost our manufacturing base to China. If we had those jobs back we would still be the envy of the world and would be living the dream.

    When will we get serious about protecting OUR economy?

  8. tree_guy says:

    Lyle mentioned the decline in service levels at businesses we frequent. His example was the service station which used to have attendants who provided service to your car. This sort of arrangement has been ended by automation plus minimum wage laws. The old gas stations could hire kids after school to check oil and tires and pay them 50cents or a dollar an hour. Now our “advanced” society has determined that these people should be paid more. Of course, they’re not paid more, they just sit at home and play xbox cause no employer wants to pay that much for checking the oil and so forth. Enjoy your enlightened society!

  9. aislander hit the nail on the head. The greenies, tree huggers, environmentalist whacks and leftists (I guess I was being redundant) want the rest of us to live in the 7th century (ironically, so does Islam) while the leftist elites get to live how they want.

    The democrats don’t offer solutions, just accusations, because they want the followers to continue to re-elect them with their promise of utopia.

  10. What a bunch of garbage! The first sentence makes assumptions and draws conclusions that cannot be substantiated with facts. The rest is nonsense.
    Other than that I have no strong opinion about yet another letter from Mr. Laws’ smoking word processor.

  11. the3rdpigshouse says:

    FYI – and that dim bulb Connie Ladenburg supports providing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants!! Keep electing those anti-American socialist democrats!!

  12. Grassisgreener says:

    I’m sorry. Did I say “automation” was a problem? Oops. Illegal immigration is a problem, as it is also a security threat, but automation is certainly not a problem. Automation actually contrbitutest to employment increases in many cases. No. Automation is a part of innovation and ingenuity, and that is something that should be encouraged , not derided as a problem.
    Apologies.

  13. aislander says:

    I thought that was out of character, Grass, and chalked it up to your wanting to avoid a “foolish consistency,” but I never though much of Emerson, so discarded THAT idea. Foolish consistency is more XTP’s speed anyway. Yours has seemed an informed consistency…

  14. aislander says:

    Damn. I should proofread before I hit “submit…”

  15. Misunderestimated says:

    The problem is more minimum wage than illegal immigration.
    The minimum wage forces an artifically high wage that the market will not bear. Faced with raising prices or eliminating workers, the employer knows that cutting workers is the fastest way to reduce costs. This in itself leads to innovation and automation.
    Eliminate the minimum wage and watch jobs return at market prices.
    The very idea of a minimum wage shows how ignorant our society has become. Why an arbitrary $9 per hour, why not $25? Oh, $25 would upset the economy and cost jobs. Well, so does $9, just ask almost any high schooler.

  16. Yep….those illegal aliens have offshored all of our well-paying jobs to India and now a computer engineer can’t get a job pumping gas because minimum wage is too high!

  17. And folks…..Even if minimum wage were erased, full service wouldn’t return. Gas stations would just pay less for the clerk running the cash register and selling candy bars while you pump your own gas.

  18. “tree_guy says:
    June 24, 2011 at 4:18 pm
    Lyle, this is the type of letter to the editor that I really like to read, a solid reasoned opinion with a lot of truth to it.”

    Totally leaving out the issue of manufacturing outsourcing to Asia. Yeah, solid, reasoned and biased.

  19. tree_guy says:
    June 24, 2011 at 7:23 pm
    Lyle mentioned the decline in service levels at businesses we frequent. His example was the service station which used to have attendants who provided service to your car. This sort of arrangement has been ended by automation plus minimum wage laws. The old gas stations could hire kids after school to check oil and tires and pay them 50cents or a dollar an hour. Now our “advanced” society has determined that these people should be paid more. Of course, they’re not paid more, they just sit at home and play xbox cause no employer wants to pay that much for checking the oil and so forth. Enjoy your enlightened society!

    This is the kind of tripe that makes me wonder if Tree really is a business owner. No employer hires anyone at any cost to do something that doesn’t benefit his/her business. The purpose of checking oil, was to sell oil and oil changes. The purpose of cleaning windows was to sell wipers and the main idea was to provide a reason for people to continue to buy gas at his establishment.
    In those days, the prices weren’t fixed and you used to see price wars between completing stations. I’m sure that Tree The Business Owner can blame the absence of that on “The Left” also.

  20. Why are republicans in a race to the bottom of the wage pile?

  21. From Thom Hartmann.com:

    The Commerce Department’s report released today shows the recovery lost it’s mojo in the second quarter as growth slowed to a 2.4 percent crawl, the most sluggish showing in nearly a year and too weak to drive down unemployment. Weaker spending by consumers, less growth coming from companies restocking depleted stockpiles, and a bigger drag from the nation’s trade deficits were the main factors behind the second quarter’s slowdown.
    Germany consumers, meanwhile, are, according to today’s Financial Times, “less worried about unemployment at any time in the last two years, triggering a surge in consumer confidence.” The reason? In Germany unions are so strong that the law requires 50% of the members of the boards of directors of every German corporation be made up of union folks. Therefore, instead of laying people off, during the recession, German companies only slightly cut back worker hours, and the German government sent checks to make of the difference. Thus spending never stopped, demand remained strong and their economy is recovering quickly.

  22. Roncella says:

    Both the Left and the Right are guilty of not closing our borders, both north and south.

    However, President Obama and his helper Napolantano both claimed that our southern borders are safe and everything has improved since Obama has been President. They claim there are enough Border guards to control the thousands of illegal mexicans and others coming across the border daily.

    They are both guilty of covering up the facts. More and more border agents and folks living along the border keep asking for more help, which is ignored by OBama, and Napolantano, who continue to use a slight improvement in arrests to having solved the border problem.

    President Obama is about to offer amesty to millions of illegal mexicans. He will do this without closing the borders First.

    Obama needs more votes to insure he gets re-elected in 2012. This is an easy way for him to get more democratic votes, on the backs of all Americans. Obama is putting his re-election needs ahead of the safety and wellbeing of all Americans.

  23. Thank You Kardnos.

  24. LarryFine says:

    Bummer, wallpaper is back.

  25. Lyle, I don’t believe immigration is the problem.

    What America needs is to demand our spineless politicians stand up for working Americans and demand equal trade !!!!

  26. truthbusterguy says:

    Unions are bankrupting the state and driving business out of this state. The NRLB suite against Boeing will backfire and companies will not come to WA State because state government prefers the unions to profit making companies.

    The only choice for WA state is we become a right to work state.

  27. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    beerBoy says:

    ”And folks…..Even if minimum wage were erased, full service wouldn’t return.”

    Ten thousand Oregon pump jockeys got a good laugh outta’ that one.

  28. LarryFine says:

    LOL Vox… how true.

  29. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    For once, you didn’t beat me to it.

  30. “Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:
    June 25, 2011 at 10:10 am
    beerBoy says:

    ”And folks…..Even if minimum wage were erased, full service wouldn’t return.”

    Ten thousand Oregon pump jockeys got a good laugh outta’ that one.

    Vox, in typical Conservative style, will conveniently forget the point that Oregon State law prevents people from pumping their own gas. Maybe we need more laws to protect employment……hmmmm……..

  31. By Peter Slevin
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Monday, July 26, 2010

    In a bid to remake the enforcement of federal immigration laws, the Obama administration is deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants and auditing hundreds of businesses that blithely hire undocumented workers.

    Roncella bleets – “folks living along the border keep asking for more help, which is ignored by OBama, and Napolantano, who continue to use a slight improvement in arrests to having solved the border problem.”

    Now, I wonder who is going to care for California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas’ borders when the Republicans shrink the size of government and drown it in the bathtub as the have pledged to Grover Norquist. I thought these conservatives said states should take care of their own.

  32. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    I was wondering how long it would take for one of the regulationistas to use this angle to stomp on the joke.

    Great sense of humor there Kardy.

  33. Frida…..it’s a dirty job, but someone has to provide LarryFine with something to emote a childish whine about…..

  34. Vox….no….great sense of reality. You purposefully misrepresent the issue and when caught try to make it out as something else.

  35. while watching a dumb….well you know…..fill his tank and Costco, with his grandson in the car and my car next to him…..SMOKING A CIGARETTE…..I’m wondering why we allow fools like that to have a license, much less pump gas.

  36. not “and”….”at”

  37. “KARDNOS says:
    June 25, 2011 at 10:32 am
    while watching a dumb….well you know…..fill his tank and Costco, with his grandson in the car and my car next to him…..SMOKING A CIGARETTE…..I’m wondering why we allow fools like that to have a license, much less pump gas.”

    I would add: OR ON HIS CELL PHONE PUMPING GAS.

  38. KARDNOS is batting 100%. First he quotes Thom Hartmann, one of the more outspoken commies in the country, then drops to an even lower level and quotes the Washington Post. No surprise here.

  39. frosty…..how Joe McCarthy of you!!!

    I’m surprised you would even listen to Hartmann, as he speaks in more than three word phrases.

    Of course, you could have never listened to him and are just parroting something that Glenn Beck said….

  40. Frosty…batting “100%” would only be 1 out of 10…..

    Would you like to try the phrase again?

  41. LarryFine says:

    100% is 100 out 100… 1 out of 1… 2 out of 2… but then again “progressive math” is more about feelings than correct sums.

  42. I’m perfectly happy with “100%” . I’m not into splitting hairs. I don’t listen to Hartmann, only when the conservatives go on commercial break I’ll switch over to the sickos on lib radio for a few minutes, just for laughs mind you. I can only stand so much Palin and Bachmann bashing. That’s the kind of entertainment that can only be taken in very short bursts.

  43. aislander says:

    Progressive math! Love it. A batting average of .100 would be one out of ten. The easily confused are easily confused…

  44. LarryFine, thank you. I doubt that you made much of an impression though.

  45. aislander, all I said is “KARDNOS is batting 100%”. He can’t even accept that without trying to confuse the issue. That’s the perfect example of a liberal who is always looking for the back door. Obfuscation is the liberal’s path to intellectual domination.

  46. Most of the commenters that think the Borders are secure should go to Arizona or Texas and watch the illegals streaming across the border from Mexico.Watch especially at night.I feel the reason there is so much influction of illegals is the belief that Obama will initiate an amnesty program for them and from some remarks I have heard, make me believe this is true.If you think this is the land of milk and honey,look more closely and I think the milk is beginning to sour and the honey is less sweeter than it was.

  47. LarryFine says:

    He was ‘tailgating” you Frosty…

  48. Ten thousand Oregon pump jockeys got a good laugh outta’ that one.

    Oregon’s minimum wage is $8.50 – there are several states with lower minimum wages and self-service stations but Oregon has a law prohibiting self-service..

    The following is taken directly from the text of ORS 480.330:

    “An owner, operator or employee of a filling station service station, garage, or other dispensary where class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail may not permit any person other than the owner, operator or employee to use or manipulate any pump, hose, pipe or other device for dispensing the liquids into the fuel tank of a motor vehicle or other retail container.”

    ORS 480.385, Civil penalty for dispensing law violation:
    Civil penalty shall become due and payable 10 days after order: up to $500.

    So the solution you support is to MORE REGULATIONS on small businesses!!!!!

    ROTLMAO

  49. Roncella says:

    sincere, There is very little chance of Obama not giving a complete amnesty to all the illegal mexicans who are living here by the millions.

    This act would insure him getting their vote in the 2012 election cycle.

    All President Obama is interested in accomplishing from now to nov. 2012 is his own re-election to the Presidency.

    He has no clue on how to fix the economy nor do all his czars and advisors. They are extreme left socialists only good at income re-distribution and more and more spending and passing more and more social programs, along with raising taxes on all the Americans who still Pay Taxes.

  50. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    KARDNOS says:

    “Vox, in typical Conservative style, will conveniently forget the point that Oregon State law prevents people from pumping their own gas. Maybe we need more laws to protect employment……hmmmm…….. ”

    Okay…if you think this type of regulation is such a good idea, then why stop with gas pumping? Think what laws like this could do for shoe shine, laundry, car washing, etc… the list could be endless.

    “You purposefully misrepresent the issue and when caught try to make it out as something else.”

    Now that was funny.

    LMAO, a little pot-vs-kettle from the king of obfuscation.

    So now… let’s obfuscate a bit:

    Here are a few the 17 declarations in ORS 480.330 (Oregon’s anti self-serve law) which lamely attempt to rationalize the law:

    ORS480.315

    1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids.

    Remind me again; has there been an epidemic of accidents caused by mishandling of gasoline in self serve states?

    7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids.

    What about the ‘qualified fuel dispensing operator’? There are no masks, no special procedures and no form of protection from these fumes for the attendant. There is nothing this ‘qualified’ person does any differently than I would. Exposure to fumes for them is OK, I guess.

    10a) The significantly higher prices typically charged for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self service is permitted at retail discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service.

    First off, the keyword here is ‘inconvenience’, the opposite of which is the more desirable root word; “convenience”. Convenience is a luxury, not a right. Oregon lawmakers need to learn the difference apparently.

    Secondly, the state of Oregon regularly has the highest average gas prices in all of the contiguous United States thanks to taxes and restrictions imposed upon it’s service stations. Oregon not only demands its gas station proprietors hire full time attendants to pump gas but also imposes a “licensing tax” which is due every month of operation. (Of course government employees are exempt from paying this additional tax and may file for a refund on the gas they use.) Where is the concern for the low income folks now? The poor of Oregon now routinely pay the highest gas prices in the country! Rather than cut taxes and lower prices for everyone, the state of OR has decided it’s better to impose the highest taxes and charges for all: including the poor.

    11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations.

    When government restricts free market evolution, the result can only be stagnation. Can you imagine life if the government had stepped in to halt the ‘diminished availability’ of blacksmiths, chimney sweeps, milkmen, 8 tracks tapes, rotary phones, etc, etc. If there is market demand for a business it will survive without intervention.

    14) Self service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people.

    Self-serve gas stations have not led to higher unemployment rates in other states. Most of those stations are equipped with automated electronic pumps and surveilance. More high tech equipment = more high tech maintenance & sales = more high tech jobs.

    Hmmm. Oregon regularly has the highest gasoline prices in the country. It also has one of the highest unemployment rates.

    17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at self service stations creates a dangerous situation.

    No data exists, anywhere, to support a higher rate of injury to minors at self service stations vs. full serve stations, and child abandonment laws prevent leaving your child in an unattended car in every US state.

    A vast majority of self serve stations are equipped with pay at the pump service, so you never have to leave the perimeter of your car. If it does not offer this, drive 1/4 mile to one that does. Don’t want to do that: take the child inside with you.

  51. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Oops, I should also mention that I am citing (and editing) a 2002 article from Free Republic.

  52. aislander says:

    Vox: Nice deconstruction combined with demolition. Not much to add, but your point about the attendants’ being subjected to fumes brings to mind the anti-smoking argument used to shut down cigar lounges. There was much concern for the employees of such establishments, and it was the clinching argument to achieve the shutdown. I can see lefties making the same argument to shut down gas stations–I know they want to! Farfetched, I know, but I have tried reductio ad absurdum scenarios in the past where lefties are concerned and they always seem to it happen…

  53. LarryFine says:

    Well played Vox. I love it.

  54. Lots of posters need to take a trip to Oregon.

    There (as VOX said) your gas is still pumped for you. Because Oregon passed a law that says no self-serve at the gas pump.

    And the pumps there are exactly the same as the ‘self-serve’ pumps are here.

    Can’t wait to see how this gets spun.

    So TTFN and LOL to all.

  55. LarryFine says:

    Obviously you haven’t followed the thread.

  56. What the hell did xring just say?

  57. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Vox- well put.

    Xring- take your meds.

  58. alindasue says:

    Roncella said, “sincere, There is very little chance of Obama not giving a complete amnesty to all the illegal mexicans who are living here by the millions.

    This act would insure him getting their vote in the 2012 election cycle.”

    I have always failed to understand the logic behind these type of statements.

    Illegal aliens don’t – can’t – vote. You have to be a registered voter to vote. You have to be a citizen to become a registered voter. An immigrant has to be in this country LEGALLY for several years before he can even apply for citizenship.

    You may legitimately argue that immigrants may be “stealing” jobs from natural born Americans, but I can assure you that any immigrants who vote in 2012 will not be illegal.

    xring said, “Lots of posters need to take a trip to Oregon.”

    I’ve been to Oregon. The gas prices in the coastal towns there weren’t much different from coastal towns here and the mini-serve stations were nice. It did bother me though when after the pump would naturally stop while filling my car, occasional attendants would try to inch it up 60 or 70 cents to the next dollar. One attendant even made it run until gas started to overflow out…

  59. tree_guy says:

    It did bother me though when after the pump would naturally stop while filling my car, occasional attendants would try to inch it up 60 or 70 cents to the next dollar.

    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/06/24/automation-immigration-unemployment/#ixzz1QLU2RDFY

    Well, alinda, if you ask the attendant to fill the car don’t be angry if he tries to actually fill it up. If this bothers you then just ask for $20 worth of gas or whatever. Hope this helps.

  60. steilacoomtaxpayer says:

    Maybe the Bikini Baristas would do for attendants?

  61. aislander says:

    So…alindasue…if illegals don’t/can’t vote, why is the entire Democrat party opposed to photo IDs for voters? Seems they don’t want voters to be TOO qualified–just reliable…

  62. LarryFine says:

    … stole my thunder Ai. next thing you know someone will say the illegals can’t get driver’s a license, food stamps, medicaid, etc.

  63. “Illegal aliens don’t – can’t – vote. You have to be a registered voter to vote.”

    Have you not heard of motor voter?

    WA state allows anyone to get a drivers license, no questions asked. And when you get that license, you are automatically registered to vote if you check the proper box.

  64. damit!

    ;-)

  65. Saw this on the DOL website:

    “Before we take your photo, we’ll ask you to remove anything that covers your face or head (like a hat or sunglasses). If you choose not to remove it, your license will be marked “Not Valid for Identification.” We’ll make exceptions for medical and religious reasons.”

    Sucking up to the burka wearing crowd?

  66. concernedtacoma7 says:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703561604575282190930932412.html

    Come on hippies, tell me how smart you are! This is why when the left controls congress, the economy falls apart.

  67. If Vox had so much to say…..why attempt to play off the original misdirection as a “joke”?

  68. For the dipstick in the back row….

    Catholic Nuns wear religious garb that they are not required to remove for license photos.

    Hasidic Jews?

    German Baptists? (several sects in America)

    Hindu? (not to be confused with Muslims, although Conservatives don’t know that)

    Small minds can’t see beyond the point of their heads.

  69. Our local Nazi farmer in Lewis County is now calling for those getting “entitlements” to not have voting privileges. I guess he means that oil companyies can donate millions to campaigns, but don’t get to vote because of their subsidies.

  70. “Roncella said, “sincere, There is very little chance of Obama not giving a complete amnesty to all the illegal mexicans who are living here by the millions”

    Must have been Reagan’s plan when he granted amnesty to millions.

  71. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Companies do not vote. A company can donate zero to a trillion dollars and still not vote. What was your point?

  72. aislander says:

    Someone is doing a ton of stereotyping in his posts, and it ain’t one of the conservatives…

  73. aislander says:

    …not that I mind a little stereotyping–saves a lot of time–but I don’t make a fetish of NOT stereotyping, and of condemning those who DO stereotype. Methinks I detect the stench of hypocrisy to enhance that of the prevailing mendacity…

  74. aislander says:

    …which makes me think of the glee with which lefties dissect the moral failings of conservatives. The proggies delude themselves into believing that we set a high bar that we hold everyone up to (we do set a high bar, but it is something to aspire to: humans are…well…human, and it is a personal goal), so they relish the times conservatives are caught falling short of moral perfection. Well, HERE we have a lib falling short of his idea of moral rectitude–and not just his, but one he believes the force of law should impose on us all. And I didn’t know that farmer in Lewis County is a socialist…

  75. L_F, sage1, concerned,
    Sorry, I forgot and wrote at a fourth grade level.

    Sage1,
    Strike 1, it is the Republicon Corporatists elite that wants 90% of us to live as surfs and slaves so the top 10% can earn and live however they want.

    The only thing the right offers is more of the same failed voodoo economics that busted us in the first place.

    Roncella,
    Buy a clue! There is no chance that Obama will grant amnesty to anyone. And the chance of non-citizens being able to vote is about half the chance that you would vote for Obama.

    Vox – fact check on gas prices
    Current price for a gallon of regular gas:
    US – $3.587
    Wa – $3.848
    Or – $3.810
    Id – $3.656

    So no self server Oregon 3.8 cents per gallon cheaper than self-serve Washington.

    Concerned7,
    A survey of American voters by World Public Opinion shows Fox News viewers are significantly more misinformed than consumers of news from other sources.

    http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/12/16/1615218/Survey-Shows-That-Fox-News-Makes-You-Less-Informed

  76. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Without bothering to look at your link, this argument popped up when Stewart was on Orielly. Your attempt to deflect is proven false by politifact.

    I posted a link regarding Repub vs Dem.

    Nice try, but you completely failed to dispute my point. Democrats are ignorant on the economy. Proven in the study quoted in my link and the posts by the flag burning hippies on this thread.

  77. The real reason why the US is loosing jobs, is because we no longer produce most of our domestically used goods. It ALL comes from china. Everything, Textiles, Kitchen supplies, Cheap plastic goods… These manufacturing jobs need to be brought back to the US. Will the price change drastically? No. What’s saved in Labor is quickly spent in transportation costs. And if more people are employed in this country, they are out spending more, which will drive down the unit cost, as prodution quantities increase. Initially, yes the price will probally increase some, but over time it will even itself out, especally as fuel costs rise.

  78. Vox – still don’t understand what the heck you are trying to say about Oregon and how it relates to my original post that stated, essentially, that even with the removal of minimum wage laws self-service gas stations are here to stay.

    And ai and LF – in you eagerness to “get” the ‘libs” you seem to have lost your rational capabilities. vox’s “argument” regarding Oregon law disallowing self-serve gas stations is all bluster in an attempt to cover up the fact that he thought he had a gotcha on me and blew it.

  79. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    bB, considering how many years we have bantered back and forth, I am sure you realize I do not advocate for the kind of legislated jobs, wages, and regulation that can be so neatly wrapped up in a bad law such as ORS 480.330. Therefore, I am equally confused as to the gist of your post preceding this most recent one.

    So for the benefit of those whose time is too valuable to waste on a re-read of most of this thread on such a beautiful morning, I’ll attempt a brief recap:

    – You submit comment remarking that self serve will never be reintroduced;
    – I crack that your assertion would be laughable in Oregon – knowing full well that one of the regulationista mouthpieces here, would then try to paint me as back door favoring the Oregon law in question;
    – I snag two big fish on same hook;
    – I then follow the tangent long enough to explain why it is such a joke of a law (using verbiage taken directly from the law), as well as a perfect example of how liberals use legislation to create false jobs and regulation, and generate revenue in the bargain.

    All of which brings us to your post, previous.

    HTH

  80. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    xring says:

    “Vox – fact check on gas prices… ”

    And equally as predictable, the left thinker has a fall-back problem with comprehension, leaving the door open to plausibly misconstrue.

    x, what part of “regularly” do you not understand? When one uses a qualifier such as “regularly” or “routinely” in a sentence, the predicate is not an absolute.

    But thanks for pointing out the obvious; that WA and OR are both “regularly” (and currently) ensconced in the bottom 20% of states in terms of highest gas prices.

    Let’s see… we have ports where oil is imported from AK, pipelines that extend all the way to Eugene, a refinery in Anacortes… why oh why do we pay such high gas prices here?

    http://www.oregongasprices.com/Prices_nationally.aspx

  81. LarryFine says:

    “I forgot and wrote at a fourth grade level.” As we have learned to expect.

  82. State to state comparison of gas prices cannot be based on only one variable. In addition to labor paid to station attendants, taxes AND access to distribution have to be factored in.

    One of the few benefits of living in Missouri was that we had low gas prices – due to lower taxes AND the close proximity to where the gas originated. Similarly, Texas gas prices have as much, or more, to do with Texas being an oil producer as lower taxes.

  83. Not sure why some conservative posters here think that they can cover their inconsistent/stupid/unthinking posts as “traps for leftists” so that when someone responds to point out the inconsistent/stupid/unthinking nature of the post they can say “the lefties fell for my trap!”

    Own it vox – you wrote a snappy comeback to my post that wasn’t completely thought through. There is no “trap” in having someone comeback and point out your error.

    What is more embarrassing than your original error is LF and ai congratulating you on the error.

  84. tree_guy says:

    “These manufacturing jobs need to be brought back to the US. Will the price change drastically? No. What’s saved in Labor is quickly spent in transportation costs.” MisterZ

    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/06/24/automation-immigration-unemployment/#ixzz1QOi4fT5p

    Do you mean that all those businessmen who study the economics of the global manufacturing and distribution of products are getting it wrong? Doubt if the savings on transportation costs for many of these finished goods would offset the costs of manufacturing in the US. For example: an IPAD might have a transportation cost of $5 to get from China to the US but the savings realized by manufacturing the device in China might be several hundred dollars per device.

    IMO consumers enjoy a wonderful access to high value finished goods precisely because of the substantial savings in foreign labor costs.

  85. This is too much fun reading the leftie comments. They try so hard to give some sort of logical argument just to be the “rebellious kid”. I’m convinced now more than ever that these people grew up as lying, spoiled problem children. The kind that always has to take the opposite side, just so they can get attention from mommy. They continue to age, but not mature, until they reach legal adulthood and will take a stand against anything that reeks of common sense. That folks is what a liberal is. They babble on and on endlessly, making absolutely no sense to anyone except themselves and their fellow deviants.

  86. tree-guy, you nailed it. Regrettably the pro-union folks do not get it and will continue to blame the “capitalists” for the problem.

  87. Roncella says:

    Frosty to continue about liberals and how they reason and think and comprehend.

    Liberals really believe they are right about their social government programs (costing millions and millions of dollars). Liberals believe they CARE more and have feelings for all the disadvantaged and the poor, and the Children.

    Liberals really don’t seem to understand that the Government has NO Money. The Government has to take money in the form of taxes both state and federal to then re-distribute the goodies to all their needy causes.

    Should a Conservative object to the additional taxes and fees etc. the liberal calls them mean and cruel.

    Social services for the very needy are necessary, but liberals take it to the extreme and never want to cut back a program no matter if it is helping or accomplishing what it was suppose to or not.

    Usually its almost impossible to reason with a Liberal, some will listen and learn, most won’t.

  88. LarryFine says:

    Seems a fan of the “arts” has been bested and can’t own it. LOL.

  89. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Uhhm, bB, this ”inconsistent/stupid/unthinking” conservative never said he was setting a ”trap for leftists”. The implication is I should have disclaimed your predictable response in my initial comment, but I didn’t think it was necessary given the humorous nature of it. Obviously I was wrong.

    But since you have escalated this to the level of ”inconsistent/stupid/unthinking”, perhaps you could be ”consistent” by ”thinking” of an explanation for the following ”stupid” assertion:

    ”And folks…..Even if minimum wage were erased, full service wouldn’t return.”

    Oregon?

    ”Own it” bB ”- you wrote a snappy comeback to ”Misunderestimated’s” post that wasn’t completely thought through. There is no “trap” in having someone comeback and point out your error.”

    ‘Nuff of this petty drivel, time to go out and enjoy the weather.

  90. Roncella, as one of Obama’s supporters once famously said when asked where the money would come from, she said “from Obama’s stash”. Need I say more?

  91. Grassisgreener says:

    As far as the whole illegal immigration thing goes… it’s a very complicated issue because nothing has been done about it for so long. One thing that definitely needs to be done is to make the LEGAL immigration process faster.

  92. “concernedtacoma7 says:
    June 25, 2011 at 10:20 pm
    Companies do not vote. A company can donate zero to a trillion dollars and still not vote. What was your point? ”

    WOW!!!!! Concerned “got it”!!!!!! (kinda)

    The Right Wing wants to cut out the vote from Americans that get government assistance (might that be Social Security????) so that what’s left over to vote has to listen to the political message that they might not be so ready to finance if not for taxpayer money being given to them by the billions…..

    The oil companies donate millions in campaign contributions to get billions in subsidies. Agriculture businesses – same song, different verse. Pretty damned good investment, I’d say.

    If we didn’t give them those billions…..would they be so free with campaign money???????

  93. As an elderly TEA Party member said on video when asked about cutting Social Security and Medicare….

    “that’s not constitutional”

    I guess there was a Constitutional amendment to start Social Security and Medicare that no one recorded.

  94. “‘Nuff of this petty drivel, time to go out and enjoy the weather.”

    There is a telltale line……LOL

  95. “Liberals really don’t seem to understand that the Government has NO Money.”

    A bold faced lie.

    If we really have no money, let’s see Boehner shut down the House of Representatives and turn operations over to the President and Senate and we’d save over $76 million dollars a year. There’s a good start to savings.

    That would give each state two Senators (fair, huh?) for representation, then let the legislation begin!

    Think of all the money that would be saved on elections!!!!!!!!

    OK. Boehner, put your mouth where the money allegedly isn’t.

  96. aislander says:

    You’re right, Roncella, the government has NO money of its own, and would not have, even if (I want everyone to use his imagination here) it were running a surplus. I used the subjunctive mood to indicate a surplus was far beyond the realm of possibility these days. Maybe if we get a conservative Congress, such as Clinton was blessed with…

  97. Islander,
    The poison pill it the voter-photo id is not the photo – it is the name.
    Most of these laws require that the name on the ID exactly match the name on the voter rolls.

    However, driver’s licenses and state issued id cards bare a person’s
    FULL Name (that is Firs Name, Middle Name, Last Name)

    while voter rolls most often contain a person’s
    LEGAL Name (First Name, Middle INITIAL, Last Name) .

    Such a discrepancy would disqualify most voters under the photo id laws.

    Sage1
    FYI to register to vote in Washington one must be and prove they are
    • A citizen of the United States.
    • A legal resident of the State;
    • At least 18 years old by Election Day;
    • Have not been convicted of a felony and not had your voting rights restored;
    • Have not been declared by a court to be mentally incompetent and ineligible to vote.

    DL – Photos – they also ask you to remove you glasses.

  98. Concerned7,
    “Without bothering to look up your link” – then you are unable to comment on in – a not uncommon vice of the right.
    Tree_guy and Frosty,
    With many corporations reporting record profits it appears that the lowered cost of manufacturing goods overseas is not being passed on to the American Consumer.
    VOX,
    So you are citing and editing a 2002 article from “America’s exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty constitutional conservative activists!”
    How much of your post was citing and how much was editing.
    Gas prices are determined by:
    Demand – in US highest in summer. US major use is for transportation – most of rest of world major use is heating and power generation.
    Market tightens or lowers inventories (increase or decrease in production).
    Natural disasters – such as hurricanes in the gulf knocking out refineries.
    Refinerary maintenance – usually in spring –
    Federal and state taxes – total tax generally higher in Europe than in US.
    Gas stations – regularly tack on up to 10 cents or more per gallon.
    10 states with highest gas prices: Current
    Jan 1983 – October 1008 gas price
    (in order of decreasing cost)
    1. Alaska Hawaii
    2. Hawaii Washington DC
    3. Vermont Alaska
    4. Nevada Connecticut
    5. California New York
    6. Oregon Washington
    7. Wyoming California
    8. Arizona Oregon
    9. North Dakota Illinois
    10. Maine Vermont

  99. FYI,
    the second set of states in the listing by current gas price.

  100. LarryFine says:

    Where can we find the info from your 1:50 post ?

  101. aislander says:

    xring “forgot” the cost of Federal regulation and its effect on the price (and availability) of gasoline. Quite the oversight, wasn’t it? Oh, and it DOES affect prices state by state…

  102. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    x… have you been drinking – a lot – lately?

    First you criticize me for citing an old piece in Free Republic, and then you go on to cite the following:

    10 states with highest gas prices: Current
    Jan 1983 – October 1008 gas price

    Current? 1983? 1008? (I am amazed you were able to find data on gas prices from the year 1008 – tip ‘o the hat to your internet research skills.)

    Did you even bother to follow the link I provided? Too bad, ‘cuz it is really a cool link. It provides data on the current average cost of gasoline on a state-by-state basis… in real time! Way more accurate – and current than whatever it is you’re using (no citation/ link provided).

    Whatever you are trying to prove makes absolutely no sense to me.

    And, by the way, I edited-out data from the 2002 FR article that had to do with tax rates, rankings, prices, etc… you know, the things most folks would consider out of date since the article was written in 2002. (That is, “most folks” who would not also cite data from 1983 – never mind 1008).

  103. Yes ai, if you need to simplify it to a bumper stick, call it supply and demand. But it is just as easy to cite distribution and actually have more information.

  104. aislander says:

    You had me scrambling for a couple of minutes, beerBoy, but I think your above post is apropos to (of?) another thread. Anyway, as you probably have been able to deduce, I believe the supply side is much more important than the demand side…

  105. L_F – as usual you miss the insult.

    Try researching the bills.

  106. tree_guy says:

    “With many corporations reporting record profits it appears that the lowered cost of manufacturing goods overseas is not being passed on to the American Consumer.” xring

    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/06/24/automation-immigration-unemployment/#ixzz1QRrWb6QT

    Why would the corporations return their profits to the consumers? They are trying to extract profits not return the profits. Many union workers both public and private have their retirement benefits invested in these corporations. They want the corporations to be profitable …don’t they?

    Xring, have you established any beneficial corporations yourself? Or is this just something you dream about when you ride around on your unicorn?

  107. commoncents says:

    Why would the corporations return their profits to the consumers? They are trying to extract profits not return the profits. Many union workers both public and private have their retirement benefits invested in these corporations. They want the corporations to be profitable …don’t they?

    —-

    Profitable is relative. Anyone ever stop to think that the rise in the markets and demand for short term profitability over long term viability has come into play along with the popularity of daily valued 401k accounts?

  108. When did Free Republic become a reliable source for anything? Try writing a contradicting comment to Free Republic and see what happens….

  109. ai – sorry about that. Both threads were commenting upon gas prices for different states and I forgot that this one is about gas prices in Oregon and the other one is about gas prices in Texas. I knew you were a Thatcherite – the problem with Supply-side is that ignores Demand as an equally important aspect of the equation.

    vox and LF – again…..the only way that the snappy comeback vox made makes any sense is if you ignore the meaning of my original post. I did not claim that full service does not exist anywhere – I wrote that that eliminating minimum wage laws will not cause full service to return.. To prove that full service still exists as an exception to the rule due to government regulation doesn’t disprove my initial statement.

  110. Context………

    from the original letter:
    Not too many years ago when someone pulled into a service station, one or two attendants came right out to fill the tank, check the oil and clean the windows. Now, with access to debit or credit cards, one employee can tend to 15 to 20 customers.

  111. lylelaws says:

    just for the record, in my letter I did not say that automation was a bad thing or that we should return to the pick-and-shovel ways to create more jobs as some have stated. Automation can actually lower the cost of production and, in turn, the cost to consumers, but it has and will continue to reduce the number of hands-on employees needed in the workforce.

  112. SadujTogracse says:

    I have written a contradicting comment on the Free Republic site, it wasn’t taken down. Although it wasn’t filled with sophomoric name calling and blaming every conservative for everything that is wrong in the world. Garbage gets thrown out.

  113. lyle – Yep…..automation alá Henry Ford was pretty good for the economy.

  114. Islander,
    What Federal regulations do you blame for raising gas prices?

    Commoncents
    You got it.

    Only in America is “business” more concerned with the short term gain over the long term good.

    Must be that the CEO’s are of the ME ME ME generation.

  115. aislander says:

    Oh, little things such as $10,000 pump nozzles (each pump!), special formulations for different regions of the country, and the micromanaging by bloated government that EVERY business suffers. To name a few…

  116. LarryFine says:

    Obama “a lot of businesses have learned to become much more efficient with a lot fewer workers. You see it when you go to a bank and you use an ATM. You don’t go to a bank teller.” ie… automation.
    Soooo, it must be true, the messiah said so.

  117. ‘$10,000 pump nozzles’ No doubt from the same source that said Obama was going to use 40 jumbo jets to take 6,000 business people to India.

  118. smcelhiney says:

    First hit on a vapor recovery nozzle… $160. That is almost $10,000 right?

  119. smcelhiney says:

    You get used to the BS, unfortunately the ones posting insane claims never think to check them out… and it’s someone’s liberal or right wing bias if you call them on it.

    Show me some examples of reduced government regulation leading to increases in jobs or lowered cost. We will ignore ai on his claim on cost of pump nozzles and the fact that fuel nozzles have government regulations for safety. I prefer that gas stations don’t burst into flames because some idiot drives off with the nozzle still in the tank… safety experts agree and thus there are break aways that close off the fuel if someone does that. The nozzles are there to reduce the huge amount of hydrocarbons that would other wise get released from every car when refueling. It wasn’t too many years ago that you could get dizzy (or seriously ill) refueling a car on a warm day from the vapors. That increased oversight probably added jobs rather than costing it… someone had to design nozzles and hoses that were safer, someone has to make them, sell them, buy them… What would reducing those regulations cost/save? Might save a couple of hundred bucks at the station on cost of a pump, and could ignore maintenance saving even more… until we get stations burning down, destroying cars, buildings, people… but that would just mean higher insurance costs… so transferring cost from not having an damages to paying to fix the damage. Same follows with a lot of the regulations that we are being told should go… people, property, environment will be damaged, but profits will go up and the costs will shift further to eliminating liability through laws for the actions taken by the greedy.

  120. aislander says:

    The news report I saw (local station) apparently confused the cost of the nozzles with the amount of the fine for not replacing older nozzles. I rewound the segment to verify that the reporter DID say “$10,000 nozzles,” and that was indeed the case. I deserve blame for accepting an assertion by a MSM outlet without verifying it. I know better than that…

  121. aislander says:

    Gee, if I could get dizzy or even seriously ill from pumping gasoline on a hot day without a vapor recovery nozzle, I must be living on borrowed time, since I do that NEARLY EVERY DAY while refueling equipment with a rotary hand pump attached to 55 gal. drum of gasoline. The dizziness seems to occur in those hyperventilating about this subject…

  122. Vapor (or vapour) recovery is the process of recovering the vapors of gasoline or other fuels, so that they do not escape into the atmosphere. This is often done (or required by law) at filling stations, in order to reduce noxious and potentially explosive fumes and pollution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_recovery

    Nice attempt at a recovery – blame MSM for your $9,840 mistake and then make fun of someone for citing a very minor benefit to vapor recovery nozzles rather than the obvious reason – pollution – for the regulation

  123. aislander says:

    Hey, bBoy: the reporter said what she said…

  124. Islander,
    Trust but verify.

  125. And aislander believes everything he see on TV (especially if it is said by a Fox newsbabe)

  126. aislander says:

    So…beerBoy: do you want me to flagellate myself like a Shiite? I SAID I rechecked the news item before noting it for future reference. Sheesh!

*
We welcome comments. Please keep them civil, short and to the point. ALL CAPS, spam, obscene, profane, abusive and off topic comments will be deleted. Repeat offenders will be blocked. Thanks for taking part and abiding by these simple rules.

JavaScript is required to post comments.

Follow the comments on this post with RSS 2.0