Letters to the Editor

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MIDDLE EAST: How is democracy possible?

Letter by Lyle Laws, Puyallup on June 10, 2011 at 12:11 pm with 100 Comments »
June 10, 2011 1:13 pm

I keep hearing President Obama and others talking about planting the seeds of democracy in the Middle East. President Bush also talked about the same thing when his administration was involved in Iraq.

There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.

When we get involved in places like Libya or any other Middle Eastern country and help topple the existing government, all we are doing is paving the way for another dictator to step in and take control with the hope that it will be someone who will not hate us quite as much.

Will we ever learn?

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  1. The very nature of the Muslim “religion” is against any democracy or freedom. Until they change their religious beliefs, residents of the Middle East will be slaves to stupidity.

  2. stradivari says:

    Both the letter and the first comment are painted with very broad brushes against Islam and muslims. Maybe it is because the authors do not personally know such people. Or they are possibly Christians who have forgotten about the atrocities perpetrated on muslims during the Crusades. I think it is fair to speculate that letter and comment are tinged with bias and xenophobia.

  3. bush the lesser starte 2 wars to ‘bring democrasy’ to the ME, where were you then Lyle?
    It’s costs us 3 trillion and about 5000 dead and 35K wounded, Now you cry about?

  4. yabetchya says:

    It’s Obama’s wars now !

  5. Pecksbadboy says:

    Is everyone still blind enough to think all the killing was about bringing Democracy to anywhere?

    It is Oil, Christians hating anything that is not Christian and just plain the all mighty $$$$$$$$$

  6. the3rdpigshouse says:

    “OH-Bummer” is currently in violation of the WPR and possibly the U.S. Constitution!!! Oh, I forgot – an anti-American marxist/socialist doesn’t recognize our constitution!!!!

    When are your responsibl representatives in the U.S. Congress going to stop this little dictator “OH-Bummer” and cause him to obey U.S. Laws???!!

    If they’re not, please advise which U.S. laws I can disregard!!

  7. Leper,
    Muslim culture is based on tribe, clan, and family. While a western style democracy may not work, a parliamentary system based on a tribal council would.

    Ps: one on the reason Bush blunder in Afghanistan was in placing an outside in charge rather than allowing the Afghanis to select their own leader. Which would have been messy by western standards and would have most likely included the Taliban.

    Yabetchya,
    “Obama’s wars now!” Which now means we have someone in charge with the brains and courage to end both wars.

    Peck_b_b,
    Glad to see I am not t\alone in thinking Iraq was all about oil and only about oil.

    3pig
    If the gutless wonders in the House really believe that and wanted to end the Libyan operations they would pass a binding resolution and not a feel good one to feed to the somnambulant zombie base.

  8. concernedtacoma7 says:

    Please explain why Bush would go to war with Iraq for oil. With saddam, they were underproducing, lessening global supply and making US oil more valuable. Now they are free to trade oil on the open market increasing overall supply. When US companies wanted to get Iraqi oil Bush told them no (Pickens asked Bush directly).

    Obama has done more to limit oil and make big domestic producers money than bush did. How’s that Arab spring working out?

    And last, he did not start the war in Afghanistan. That is like saying we started war with japan.

  9. alindasue says:

    xtp855 said, “bush the lesser starte 2 wars to ‘bring democrasy’ to the ME, where were you then Lyle?
    It’s costs us 3 trillion and about 5000 dead and 35K wounded, Now you cry about?”

    Some of us have been crying since early 2003…

    xring said, “…somnambulant zombie base.”

    My dictionary and I thank you for adding an interesting – and very well placed – word to my vocabulary.

  10. “There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.”

    Sounds like certain Christian sects.

  11. concerned,
    The Bush/Cheney was to seize the Iraqi fields and have them ran by big western oil companies.

    “There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel . . .”

    Athens – less than 10% of population could vote.
    The rest were women and slaves.

    British women got the vote in 1918 (but only if they were over 30).

    US women got the vote in 1920.

    So none of these were a democracy? – – weird and kooky

  12. yabetchya says:

    xring says:
    June 10, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    Yabetchya,
    “Obama’s wars now!” Which now means we have someone in charge with the brains and courage to end both wars.

    Well x, he has had almost 4 years…………..Promise broken.

  13. aislander says:

    Actually, xring, women could vote in America in the 18th Century–if they owned property. Which some did…

  14. Actually….

    “Following the American Revolution, women were allowed to vote in New Jersey, but no other state, from 1790 until 1807, provided they met property requirements then in place. In 1807, women were again forbidden from voting in the state.

  15. Yabetcha, Jan 2009 to June 2011 = 4 years, less 18 months.

    The President has ended combat operations in one theater, and is set to begin force reductions in the other.

    On the other hand The Rpot House promised us JOBS and in 6 months have not even offered a Jobs Bill, or created a single job in the USA.

  16. nwcolorist says:

    “Sounds like certain Christian sects.”

    Come on KARDNOS. You well know there are no Christian groups that do what the Muslim extremists do.

    When’s the last time a self proclaimed Christian group blew up a Buddhist shrine? Name one Christian group that has beheaded a Muslim and sent the video to the media.

  17. Well nwcolorists- some of those FINE christians have been known to blow up ‘abortion clinics’ and done a few lynchings – taking LOTS of photos for postcards and making it a family event.

  18. harleyrider1 says:

    I didn’t know Bush was still President. He’s alwasys in these blogs so it must be since there is no one else running this Country.

    We need a Presidential election and get a new President to get us out of these wars and not embroil us in another like Libya without a Declaration of War by Congress.

    Is Bush in his 3rd term already?

  19. aislander says:

    Frida: You KNOW that no mainstream Christian groups have advocated either bombings or lynchings, while such sentiments are widespread in the Muslim world. So…why the slander?

  20. aislander says:

    I suppose I should have asked “why the libel,” since you wrote down that tripe…

  21. “aislander says:
    June 11, 2011 at 8:45 am
    Frida: You KNOW that no mainstream Christian groups have advocated either bombings or lynchings”

    Nice parsing. There are no mainstream Muslims that agree with Muslim violence, in fact, there are organized groups opposing it.

  22. “nwcolorist says:
    June 11, 2011 at 7:14 am
    “Sounds like certain Christian sects.”

    Come on KARDNOS. You well know there are no Christian groups that do what the Muslim extremists do.

    When’s the last time a self proclaimed Christian group blew up a Buddhist shrine? Name one Christian group that has beheaded a Muslim and sent the video to the media.”

    First of all, let’s get the beheading thing out of the way. Daniel Pearl was the one and only that made the media and that is because the terrorists themselves posted it on the internet and the bloodthirsty just had to look (exclude me, as I have no reason to see things like that) As to cutting off body parts, you might want to bone up on Vietnam and American soldiers.

    Christian groups are more into bombing clinics and churches. Dead is dead.

    I don’t think a dismembered body from a bomb is much different than that which was done by a sharp instrument.

  23. “harleyrider1 says:
    June 11, 2011 at 7:53 am
    I didn’t know Bush was still President.”

    Neither is Clinton, but his name constantly comes up. Selective reading?

  24. by the way….NWColorist….work on your reading skills:

    “KARDNOS says:
    June 10, 2011 at 5:58 pm
    “There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.”

    Sounds like certain Christian sects.”

    I wasn’t speaking to violence, just the biased comment of another reader.

    Take a quick read on Waco and tell me that the above doesn’t describe them. As to the “government” part, they had a dictator in their community.

  25. nwcolorist says:

    KARDNOS, I read your above reference. Who is this Seyyed Hossein Nasr and what is his organization? He does a lot of wiggling around the definition of the word “violence”.

    Hardly a substantial site.

    The sad fact is that, at this time, there are no major Islamic groups that I am aware that have renounced the terrorism of Islamic extremists. Please list them for us.

  26. ItalianSpring says:

    It is about OIL. EUROPEAN and communist oil. Obomba will stop at nothing to make sure they get as much as they want, and cheap too.

  27. alindasue says:

    nwcolorist said, “Frida: You KNOW that no mainstream Christian groups have advocated either bombings or lynchings, while such sentiments are widespread in the Muslim world. So…why the slander?”

    It would only be “slander” if what she said wasn’t true.

    Islam (in all of its various denominations) is one of the largest religious groups in the world and has members throughout the world. It’s only a few radical groups in northern Africa (Middle East) that get all the press attention. Most of Islam – including a couple dozen Somalis that I personally know – denounce the actions of those groups.

    Lumping all Muslims in with those attention seeking/getting radical groups would be like lumping all Christians in with that group who pickets military funerals with signs that say “Thank God for dead soldiers” and declaring that dead soldiers are God’s way of punishing the world for homosexuality.

    I am Christian and do not condone the actions of the people from that church. The Muslim people I know do not condone the actions of the radical (often for political reasons) groups in the Middle East.

  28. Israel is a democracy.

  29. nwcolorist says:

    alindasue, just for the record, that was aislander that commented about libel and slander.

  30. alindasue says:

    nwcolorist said, “alindasue, just for the record, that was aislander that commented about libel and slander.”

    Looking at it again, I see that it was. My apologies for the mistake.

  31. aislander says:

    So…alindasue…are you saying that sentiments supporting violent jihad are NOT “widespread in the Muslim world?” Just askin’ because I KNOW that sentiments supporting abortion clinic bombings and lynchings are not widespread in the Christian community…

  32. alindasue says:

    sozo said, “Israel is a democracy. ”

    So it is. It is also, economically, a socialist state – proof that democracy and socialism are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It is also a society very much driven by the religion of its people, just as the surrounding “Muslim states” are.

    If your point is that if Israel, despite its heavy Zionism, can be a democracy, then the some other Middle East countries could at some point conceivably become democracies as well, then I agree with you.

  33. alindasue says:

    aislander said, “So…alindasue…are you saying that sentiments supporting violent jihad are NOT “widespread in the Muslim world?” Just askin’ because I KNOW that sentiments supporting abortion clinic bombings and lynchings are not widespread in the Christian community…”

    Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.

    The jihad groups may be better at making the news (which tends to thrive on the spectacular and the unusual), but they do not represent the majority of Muslims in this world any more than abortion clinic bombers represent the majority of us Christians.

  34. aislander says:

    …then you have not seen the polling results in such places as Pakistan, the Palestinian territory, Turkey, and other Muslim nations, including, ironically enough, Iraq…

  35. aislander says:

    Sorry, alindsue, but Israel is much less socialistic than it was at its inception. Like the Pilgrims in the 1600s, Israel experimented with a collectivist economy, and like everyone else who has tried it, found it did not work. Israel now has a vibrant, entrepreneurial economy that is doing rather better than our own, thank you very much…

  36. “Israel now has a vibrant, entrepreneurial economy that is doing rather better than our own, thank you very much…”

    Why does a vibrant, entrepreneurial economy that’s doing so well need financial aid from a “socialist/marxist” country, such as the U.S., and where would their economy be today without U.S. aid?

    If the U.S. economy received the same aid as Israel, per capita, receives from us, we would have circa 130 billion per year influx into the U.S. economy—A nice economic boost that could create a lot of jobs.

  37. Are some of you really going to try to run a parallel between the evil of an abortion clinic bombing and blowing up jetliners and the WTC? Is there a worldwide network of abortion clinic bombers?

    While many Muslims may decry the acts of terrorists, you are being naive not to take note of the obvious.

  38. theogsters says:

    Quoting from Mr. Laws’ letter: “…where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.” is a pretty good description of any nation (Muslim or Christian) controlled by the religious right. And it could happen to us if we’re not careful.

  39. aislander says:

    I agree, cirrus, that we should stop all aid to Israel. The irony is, that money isn’t so much to help the Israeli economy as our own. You figure out how…

    As for a $130 billion influx into our own economy, do you really believe that would find its way into the private economy or remain in the hands of government? Gotta protect those unfunded public-employee pensions and health plans, don’t we? Besides, we are so far in the hole that, by today’s standards, $130 billion is a pittance. And that’s all just an analogy, anyway…

    Thank you, sozo, for injecting a little rationality into this discussion…

  40. aislander says:

    theogsters: get some air, man…

  41. Sozo,
    Bombing abortion clinics and murdering abortion providers appears to be a unique American practice, but it is still right wing terrorism. You know the ones that claim to believe in smaller less intrusive government, and individual freedoms and responsibility.

    Islander,
    Lose the blinders.
    We need to stop aid to oil companies, agribusiness, and other supposedly profitable corportations.

  42. aislander says:

    xring: I agree with you regarding corporate welfare. Haven’t I stated that before? I don’t think there should be ANY mixing of government with business save for the enforcement of basic laws regarding fraud, theft, polluting, etc. As soon as government and business have intercourse of any sort, the specter of corporatism arises…(interesting word in previous sentence chosen with appreciation of its various interpretations)

  43. Nice wordplay, aislander.

    xring, for perhaps the thousandth time, the controversy over abortion will remain as long as some folks see abortion as a homicidal act. In other words, we expect the government, be we liberal or conservative, to do what it can to protect the innocent, and for many, prolife attempts are an effort to protect the unborn from murder.

    The number of people who believe in and support the bombing of abortion clinics is, thank God, negligible. Compare that to the number of people who support jihad. The parallel doesn’t hold up, period.

  44. “nwcolorist says:
    June 11, 2011 at 10:31 am
    KARDNOS, I read your above reference. Who is this Seyyed Hossein Nasr and what is his organization? He does a lot of wiggling around the definition of the word “violence”.

    Hardly a substantial site.

    The sad fact is that, at this time, there are no major Islamic groups that I am aware that have renounced the terrorism of Islamic extremists. Please list them for us.

    Uh….is your google not working or are you just too lazy to look for yourself?

    If an Islamic isn’t a “substantial site” about Islam, what is? FOX?

    Wiggling around the defintion of “violence”? Sort of like the “Real Christian” routine, when people are reminded of the KKK and the Army of God?

  45. Frida, K-Nose and Theo mistakenly concur -“Sounds like certain Christian sects.”
    Names? (current)…

    The referred citation is written in English. Can you actually give the literal translation from Al-Sunna Arabic or do you swallow your Taqiyya straight?

    Define “Naish”, progressive abrogation and/or sequential jihad for us, please.

    Christians do not hate “infidels” and there are NO commands to kill those that disagree, turn from or renounce Christ.

    The opposite is true in the Hadiths, Al-Sunna and Qur”an. Try being a Coptic in Egypt today.

    And Mormonism is not Christianity no matter how nice or how many there are, but we can love them and Jesus (the real one, not Lucifer’s spirit “brother”) extends His Invitation today to ALL…and without an “or-else” sword.

  46. nwcolorist – I have, on several occasions, provided links documenting many, many, many Islamic organizations and clerics that have denounced the extremists. The fact that you CHOOSE to believe that this is not true is willful ignorance.

    I won’t bother to post them again because you, and many others, continue to ape the same nonsense in spite of overwhelming evidence.

  47. Now you’ve gone on shown your true colors, bBoy.

    Subcutaneous anger is a fantastic phrase. Frankly it made me think of our president, though I admit I’m talking perception here and my perceptions are not always accurate.

    You’re quite sure are you that “anger is an emotion that emanates from our brain)? The complex nature of feelings is a mysterious thing. Blood chemistry is no doubt a factor, but are you really so earthbound that you’re prepared to stand fast to your understanding of the origin of feeling?

  48. Lars, when you say “Kard is making a false “god” from some negative experience in his past and letting it blind him with subcutaneous anger” I think you speak for many out there whose understanding of Christ and Christianity was warped by negative experiences. Experiences that shouldn’t have happened to be sure, BUT this perception of Christianity has run amuck.

    It doesn’t help that Hollywood has used these warped distortions to represent Christianity, of course … and people buy as fact the garbage Hollywood sells. Look at how ignorantly they embraced the likes of Oliver Stone and his revisionist history…or worse yet, Michael Moore.

  49. “Christians do not hate “infidels”

    “It doesn’t help that Hollywood has used these warped distortions to represent Christianity, of course … and people buy as fact the garbage Hollywood sells. Look at how ignorantly they embraced the likes of Oliver Stone and his revisionist history…or worse yet, Michael Moore.” ……infidels…..

  50. “sozo says:
    June 13, 2011 at 7:45 am
    Lars, when you say “Kard is making a false “god” from some negative experience in his past and letting it blind him with subcutaneous anger” I think you speak for many out there whose understanding of Christ and Christianity was warped by negative experiences. Experiences that shouldn’t have happened to be sure, BUT this perception of Christianity has run amuck.”

    What a crock of manure!!! Christianity has more excuses for the behavior of their terrorist sects than Islam could ever imagine. It starts with “they’re not a real Christian” and then continues with the diatribe connected with the mythological teachings of Jesus of Nazareth that are bastardized to the maximum by mainstream Christianity as it is today.

    Take as an example, the teachings of selling their worldly goods and giving to the poor and the teachings today by TV Evangelists of wealth accumulation.

    How hypocritical can one be?

    I’m sure that someone will say I don’t get it because I don’t have the magic decoder ring or magic underwear that will assure me a place in a mythical nirvana with gold all around me.

    This is just the lightweight stuff. You once had Christian support for burning people and dunking them in water…….much like todays waterboarding that Conservative Christians know God would want done…..

  51. lars bleets – “And Mormonism is not Christianity no matter how nice or how many there are”

    There we go with the “my God is the right God”…..

    Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints isn’t “CHRISTIAN”?????

    Oh…I forgot….wrong underwear……

  52. so sozo – a pedantic use of words is a “fantastic phrase” when it comes from a bible quoting conservative but anytime I use any big college words you get upset because you think I am being condescending….

    btw – For me the brain includes the grey matter in the skull, the spinal cord, and all nerves connected to the spinal cord so it encompasses quite a bit of the subcutaneous body. And, yes, the brain is where stimuli (such as adrenaline) is interpreted as various emotions such as fear, anger, sexual arousal, excitement, enjoyment, etc.

  53. India is a constitutional republic (much like the US) and…

    India is the birth place of four of the world’s major religious traditions; namely Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism.

    No Christianity???? How can they be trusted?????? They wear those thingies on their head…..well….some of them do…..

  54. All religions have been used as an excuse to be extremely unplesent to others.
    (lister – red drawf )

  55. LarryFine says:

    The letter writer made no mention of Islam or muslims.

  56. “There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.”

    I guess the letter writer was talking about the Christians and Jews of the Middle East.

    I’m surprised that we aren’t talk about DeRiver Denial.

  57. slugoxyz says:

    Here, in my humble opinion is the main difference between Christianity and Islam. Christianity has evolved. Dramatically. Yes. Christians have done some pretty rotten things but we police ourselves and we are generally very hard on our radicals and we are extremely hard on violent people who use Christianity as their cause (Klan, Messengers etc.). Our abortion clinic bombers are hunted all across state lines. Islam? Islam is a religion that hunkers down in the past. Any change is considered decadent and an affront to the religion. Many of their leaders advocate violence just like Christian leaders of old advocated violence for power. How many Christian leaders advocate violence today? Name one in the last 10 years. We have our crazies who want to burn the Quran or want to protest at soldiers’ burials but we as a society criticize them openly and unabashedly. They are outcasts and considered nut jobs. In the Muslim world, those leaders have followers that will kill you for disagreeing or somehow dissenting. That makes rational, normal, peaceful Muslims afraid to criticize let alone stand up and oppose the crazies. The thing about Islam is they kill way more of their own people than they kill Christians. Once power is achieved by a Muslim cleric, he can translate the Quran any way he wants to bolster his power and impose fear on those that might oppose. Until the Muslim world stands up against the power mongers within their own religion and rebel against the bullies, the Muslim faith will stay hunkered down in the 500s.

    I am one of those mercy based religious guys. I believe in the Christian tenets as my choice of religion but I don’t feel everyone is wrong in order for me to be right. I believe we’re all finding our own way by hook or by crook. I have read the Bible (both books) as well as the Quran. As a Christian, I have some strong Buddhist leanings and I find Zen to be a great philosophy when it comes to dealing with life and people. Does that make me a bad Christian? Some would definitely say so. I think it makes me a better one and ultimately, it’s between me and God. I believe that we are all worshiping the same God but based on our cultures, dress him/her differently. Islam does not threaten me. Some of the crazy translations/interpretations seek to kill me and crush my belief system. That I must oppose. It is not xenophobia or prejudice. Remember, it is not paranoia if THEY really are out to get you. I also realize that if the Christian world tries to make Muslims into Christians, they all will rebel. If we can embrace the peaceful Muslims and help empower them to resist the violent ones, it will be a victory for the entire world. In the mean time, our men and women, sons and daughters take the fight to the bad guys. If they weren’t there, those that hate us would be here. Our fighting men and women stick their hands in the hornet’s nest every day so the swarm does not fly here. God bless them (whichever God you choose).

  58. LarryFine says:

    No mention of Islam or muslims.

  59. slugoxyz says:

    I find it funny that some things have to be spelled out for some people. Lyle mentions the word “infidels” (we don’t use that word a lot in Buddhist or Christian circles), talks about women being treated badly…I don’t mean like Christian bad (i.e. a little glass ceiling, men opening doors for them etc.), I mean like Muslim bad (stoning a woman for being raped – infidelity don’t you know). Lyle mentions Libya (are there a lot of Christians in Libya?). Government controlled by religious fanatics? I don’t mean like having a President who thumps the Bible a bit (“W”) but we’re talking Iranian, Libyan crazy Muslim, Christian hating leaders. I mean real religious fanatics. So, Larry! What does a guy have to do to make you see that the letter is about Democracy in a Muslim country without mentioning the word Islam? Are you learning disabled or just trying to be difficult? Let us know because if you are learning disabled, I want to help. But if you’re just being difficult, all the grownup s will just ignore you like a pre-pubescent brat.

  60. Slugoxyz – the women at the Waco Christian Compound got a bit more than doors opened for them and a glass ceiling and that’s not the only case in the thousands of Christian sects in the world.

  61. LarryFine says:

    … still, the fact is, the letter writer never mentioned Islam or muslims…

  62. You said it yourself, bb…the line “subcutaneous anger” was poetic, and as such, it bears the ring of truth. Pedantic, really? I promise you, if it had been you who came up with the phrase, I would have also thought it a great line.

  63. Polago, I hate neither Oliver Stone, nor Michael Moore.

  64. How do you feel about Oliver Stone and Michael More, sozo?

  65. LF – no need to mention Islam when you do it so often….

  66. LarryFine says:

    Any examples bB? I think you’re getting dangerously close a “personal attack”.
    .
    The simple fact remains… the letter writer made no mention of Islam or muslims.

  67. alindasue says:

    larsman said, “And Mormonism is not Christianity no matter how nice or how many there are… ”

    larsman, I am a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints (all-caps mine for emphasis) and I am very much a Christian. Actually, I have been Christian since early childhood, although I didn’t choose to become LDS until I was in my mid-teens. Based on my reading, I found that the teachings of the LDS church (including the words in the Book of Mormon) most match what I was understanding from the Bible. They still do.

    However, you are free to worship according to your own conscience and I am free to do likewise. You are also free to call me “not a Christian”, heathen, or whatever you choose. Your words will have no affect on the fact that I (and my fellow LDS) consider Jesus Christ to be not only Lord, role model, and “elder brother”, but the only begotten Son of our Heavenly Father (aka God) and the only one who was capable of making the sacrifice that frees us from the bonds of death and sin. You can say otherwise, but I am a Christian.

    Please, do not assume you know what is in the hearts of others – Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.

  68. Examples from this thread:

    June 13, 2011 at 12:57 pm
    June 13, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    June 13, 2011 at 4:49 pm

  69. LarryFine says:

    That’s about as lame attempt as I have ever seen, bB, since I was responding to the following…

    stradivari says:
    June 10, 2011 at 1:42 pm
    Both the letter and the first comment are painted with very broad brushes against Islam and muslims.

    … but you knew that. And the fact remains.

  70. Are you serious, Polago, and did I spell Michael’s name wrong?

    In Stone, I am disapponted because I think he is remarkably talented. I find MM unsavory; don’t like him…mostly because he’s arrogant, something I don’t like in anyone, regardless of politcs and ideology.

    Let’s put it this way, I would probably appreciate a conversation with the former and have no time in my calendar for the latter.

    My feelings aside, I THINK both of them have used their money and influence to confuse people about the difference between fact and fiction.

  71. So your side accuses those to the left of downright hatred and praises themselves for having rational disagreements with those they loathe, sozo?

    That’s the way it sounds to me.

  72. LF – your deliberate obtuseness might be considered clever amongst some but this statement “places like Libya or any other Middle Eastern country” is pretty clear.

  73. to say nothing of this phrase:

    “children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.”

  74. Oh my goodness. First, xtp, I do not worship the ground these people walk on and don’t think you will find anything in my posts that even vaguely hints at such a thing. The fact is, Limbaugh’s arrogance is just as offensive to me as anyone on the left. As for Larsman, I affirmed him. I don’t “complete” him, which is what complement means. Perhaps you meant “compliment” which is an entirely different word.

    Clearly you do not know me and you know nothing about me at all, and you need a lesson in homonyms.

    Polago, I do not get where you are coming up with this junk. First of all I do not speak for anyone but myself. You didn’t use to be so blinded by the glare. Did I accuse “those on the left” of downright hatred? Hatred of whom? Of what? Does it make you feel better that I would not find room in my calendar for Rush Limbaugh either?

    I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to shove me into a pigeon hole of your making.

  75. LarryFine says:

    … Bb, the writer did not mention Islam or muslims. MAYBE he was refering to YOUR fear of a “theocratic” government.
    Why do some people bend themselves in pretzles to the point they contradict their own fear of the idea that the USA was founded on Christian principles… to the point they defend the abuse of women (ummm… female circumcision) and teaching young children that there is glory in being a suice/homicide bomber ?
    Those despicable actions are most prevalent in the middle east… and apparently you and some of the other posters here have chosen sides… Kooky.

  76. “Did I accuse “those on the left” of downright hatred? Hatred of whom? Of what?”

    Sozo, you said, “Ms. Obama and her husband were tutored by a man filled with hate, one who, ironically gave pulpit support to some good deeds done by his church, but one whose hatred and anger spew out of his mouth like spittle. For the record, I have friends who embrace the tenets of “liberation theology” MINUS the hatred, so what probably started out as a good, righteous thing turned vile in Rev. Wright’s mouth. This is the man the Obamas chose to baptize their kids; the preacher they chose to attend to for many years.”

    “The leap from that to Michelle Obama’s remark is not a giant one.”

    The pigeon hole is of your own making, sozo.

  77. LarryFine says:

    ummm. here’s the “pigeon hole”

    stradivari says:
    June 10, 2011 at 1:42 pm
    Both the letter and the first comment are painted with very broad brushes against Islam and muslims.
    ….
    There was no mention of Islam or muslims… following this thread it is apparent and obvious who(s) is obsessed with muslims and Islam… and bigotry toward Christians…

  78. Alindasue-
    ” Doctrines and Covenants”, “Pearl of Great Price”, “The Book of Mormon”

    and to the same extent the pre-disclaimer …”insofar as it is “correctly” translated” ( only by those in agreement or employment by LDS ) , by the incorrect usage of the KJV , Mormonism affirms concepts and statements from Brigham Young and Joseph Smith such as:

    “As man is, god once was, and as god is, man can become.”

    “Heavenly father (the non-eternal “Elohim”) was conceived and born on another planet and therefore not pre-existent which abrogates his divinity.

    It is the belief of LDS that the “heavenly father” Elohim, rather than the Holy Spirit, was the partner of Mary.

    LDS believes that Jesus was created along with his “spirit brother” Lucifer.

    It is LDS belief that proxy baptism is scriptural which directly disagrees with Heb. 9:25-27. otherwise we could live like hell, get rich, write a will and make the recipients proxy for us post-mortem.

    Hymns that are sung in the LDS temples affirm that “Joseph Smith shed his blood for us and is sitting next to “heavenly father’s” throne”.

    There are no peer reviewed archeological artifacts verifying the existence of Nephite civilization.

    There are many instructions in the NT against false teachings but one of the best is Rev. 22: 18-19. regarding the warning to neither add nor take away anything from the Word of God.

    Another in the synoptic gospels is Jesus asking the question “Why call ye me “lord, lord” and do not the things that I say?

    Notice, I am neither condemning nor “hating” anyone, but we all need to look a little deeper into “Why” we arrive at our decisions. Thanks for considering, Alindasue…

  79. Great…..a religion war on the thread!

    Why can’t some religious beliefs just mind their own business…which, by the way….isn’t telling others how to believe.

  80. I’ll repeat my earlier statement that LarryFine is trying to avoid…..

    “KARDNOS says:
    June 13, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    “There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.”

    I guess the letter writer was talking about the Christians and Jews of the Middle East.

  81. I’m amused that sozo excuses sozo from the definition of “arrogance”…..or possibly sozo dislikes sozo.

  82. LarryFine says:

    … and it doesn’t change the fact that the letter writer never used the word muslim or Islam… ‘you guess’ ;) yep.

  83. Knowing Lyle Laws’ reputation for being a Conservative Christian on the News Tribune LTEs, I would doubt that he is speaking about anything other than Muslims……but stranger things have happened.

    I’ll accept that Laws’ statement….

    “There is no way in hell that democracy can be achieved in countries where women are treated like chattel, where children are taught from birth to distrust if not hate infidels and where governments are controlled by religious fanatics.”

    ….was meant to be directed at Christians and Jews – the other predominate faiths in the geographical area.

  84. LarryFine says:

    I’ll accept that you assumed …

  85. Oh yes, I DID say that Jeremiah exudes hatred. He DOES. Drawing that conclusion does not require rocket science, Polago.

    Note that I also mentioned the paradox, as I understand his church has done a lot to help the poor, which of course it should. What worried me a bit is the indoctrination these poor folks might get — the price they pay for a hot meal.

  86. Sozo, your goal appears to be to connect the dots between Rev. Wright’s supposed hatred and the Obamas. “Ms. Obama and her husband were tutored by a man filled with hate,”

    The implication is obvious.

  87. Roncella says:

    Polago, Are you on planet pluto or what ? Of course the relationship Obama shared for over 20 years with a racist, mean, hateful minister The Rev. Wright had an affect on Both Obama and Michelle.

    They sat in his church and soaked up his sermons like sponges, it would be impossible to attend a church for 20 years and not be influenced by a Minister’s sermons and preaching.

    The Rev. Wrights church maybe giving soup to the poor but its giviing millions to Wright as he recently moved into an over 1 million dollar mansion in a white gated community just outside of Chicago, not bad living accomdations for someone who hates America, Whites, Jews.

  88. Indeed, Polago. The implication IS obvious. There IS a connection, though I don’t presume that there was some sort of mind-meld. I certainly hope that the presient and his wife are not clones of Wright. I have not heard them spew toxic waste. However, I stand firm on the fact that they “felt” the influence of this man and we got a hint of it when Michelle let her comment slip out.

  89. “I have not heard them spew toxic waste.” Yep, you havent, and you won’t.

    Yet deep down you know in your heart that they “felt” Wright’s influence but you cant find any evidence of it, can you, sozo?

    But you’ll continue your implications because that’s all you have, baseless implications.

  90. Roncella says:

    sozo, You won’t hear President Obama or Michelle spew toxic waste, especially now. The lame stream media will provide cover for Obama and support him fully on anything and everything he is doing.

    He is in re-election mode everything he says and does is related to his re-election period. He ran the first time as a moderate, and an outsider to Washington D.C., with his slogans of hope and change and yes we can.

    Now he has a 3 year record as President to run on, or run away from. All he seems able to do to defend his terrible performance as President is Blame Bush, and repeat over and over how he had no idea just how bad a shape the Country was actually in.
    Obama’s excuses are wearing thin with many Americans as they lose their jobs and homes and the price of almost everything is on the rise.

    Obama goes on spending and spending and vacation after vacation, golfing and basketball games, weekly parties at the Whitehouse, while the nation is having the worse economy since the Great Depression.

  91. If you mean that I will continue to assess what I see and hear to the best of my ability, you are correct Polago. As will you, with all of YOUR biases and prejudices in place. We’re all human, Polago…yes, even you.

  92. Roncella, unless the GOP comes up with someone who can actually lead… govern…we are probably going to have President Obama around for another four years. I agree that the mainstream media, admittedly liberal in their views, will do very little to shine a light on the president’s shortcomings. Not much point in hammering that nail any more; it’s deep in the wood now. Those who are honest see the bias of the press, those who are in denial do not. Don’t lose any sleep over it any more.

  93. “Those who are honest see the bias of the press, those who are in denial do not.”

    Ah yes, If you don’t agree with me you are in denial. Gotta love it.

  94. If you don’t agree with me you are in denial. — Polago

    No, you are in denial when you refuse to note what is obvious. Even members of the press have come clean about their biases, Polago. You can too, you know. It feels good to get it out.

  95. The obvious!

    How can anyone deny the obvious?

    The whole press corps, every media outlet, local and national news, they’re all biased………………………..except for…………………………………… Fox News.

    One doesn’t have to wonder where you’re coming from.

    Isn’t it possible, sozo, that it’s Fox News that’s more than a bit to the right of center, but from where you stand they appear to be somewhat normal and the rest seem to be somewhat to the left…….your left?

  96. sozo – you are confounding the polls of reporters (who tend to lean liberal) with “mainstream media” as if journalistic standards cannot be maintained by reporters in spite of their own personal beliefs and as if the owners and management (by definition pro-corporate biased) in mainstream media have no influence upon what finally gets published.

    Watch any mainstream tv news and count the puff pieces promoting some product/movie/pop star and ask yourself why that little bit of promotion is considered newsworthy. Then go to the corporation’s holdings and find the profit motivation.

    There was a time that TV news was considered a loss leader – a public service that provided status to the network – now it is a profit-making engine, newsfotainment. The bottom line is the bottom line. So, if mainstream media is – as you claim – slanted liberal, then that is because it is considered profitable to be perceived that way.

  97. I wouldn’t even go that far, beerBoy.

    The notion that the mainstream media is biased is nothing more than a concerted effort to discredit anyone who does not lean Right. It’s an effort to relocate the center from where it is, to where the Right wants it to be, right of center. It has no basis in fact.

  98. Where in any of my posts did you ever hear me say that Fox news completely unbiased, Polago?…though I have seen guests from the left there in dialogue with people from the right. Let’s not forget the embarrassing NPR fiasco with Juan Williams who dared to speak honestly about his feelings and got the axe because his “feelings” were politically incorrect.

    I’m inclined to agree with bBoy actually. The “news” ain’t what it used to be anywhere…but only an ostrich would refuse to admit that journalists as they are defined today tend to be sympathetic with the left and not so much on the right. Frankly, I am amused at what appears to be your honest belief that you are unbiased in these discussions, Polago.

  99. I should have said, “The notion that the mainstream media is biased” to the left…………..

    Mainstream media is not totally unbiased. I reject the notion that they are continually and exclusively biased to the Left, which is the mantra from the Right. Their motivation being as I’ve described above.

    I agree that the news isn’t what it used to be. In contrast, Fox is way to the Right of center, and I believe that the mainstream caters to the center, occasionally drifting to one side or the other. But, then, this all depends on where the center is perceived to be.

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