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ABORTION: Motherhood should be freely chosen

Letter by Joan L. Schrammeck, Tacoma on May 6, 2011 at 9:28 am with 123 Comments »
May 6, 2011 9:28 am

When I think of Mother’s Day, I think how much work and joy motherhood is, and how extremely important that it is freely chosen, each time a pregnancy occurs.

Those in Congress who want to end abortion devalue motherhood and disrespect women’s lives. Cedar River Clinics appreciates Reps. Adam Smith and Norm Dicks’ votes this week against HR3.

Leave a comment Comments → 123
  1. redneckbuck says:

    The choice is made when you have unprotected sex. A loving mother does not kill her unborn son or daughter.

  2. beerBoy says:

    The choice is made when you have unprotected sex.

    Abstinence training doesn’t work. Children in sexually active age groups must be educated about protection. Condoms must be made easily available.

  3. walkineasy says:

    The main problem I see is that the supposed pro-lifers also don’t want any type of birth control used. Take a look at these pro-lifers profiles. They are almost entirely white males. These guys still want to control everything and tell women what they can and cannot do.

    They claim to care about life. Where is that care when a young man in his 20’s can’t find a job because of this poor economy. Do they want to approve universal health care? Of course not, they don’t care about that type of life. What about the wars? Do they care if our vets come back tramatized or without limbs? Of course not. They want to cut medical care for our vets. Do they even care that our military personnel are losing their lives in this stupid, ill-conceived war? Of course not – they love war – more money for corporations and Halliburton.

    What about when medical marijuana could help somebody undergoing chemotherapy. Do they care about the nausea that person is feeling? Of course not. Drugs – oh no, only alcohol for our 6 martini dinners and lots of Xanax later.

    Abortion should NOT be used as birth control, but there are times when abortions may be the most humane for everyone, including the cell that grow within a woman’s body.

  4. You are mistaken if you think men dominate the pro-life scene.

    And bBoy, abstinence can and does work for many. I’m weary of the insult to young people that suggests they cannot possibly exercise restraint. Of course they can, and many do.

    Being responsible in the sexual arena is the mark of maturity. Sure, there are exceptional cases to consider such as rape and incest, but for the most part, encouraging people to be careful and selective about when, where and with whom they have sex is a GOOD idea.

    Perhaps it would help if we stopped thinking of sex as a purely recreational activity?

  5. beerBoy says:

    sozo – you may be “weary of the insult to young people” but the data is clear – Abstinence Only programs work less well than no program at all while contraception education works much better.

  6. leehallfae says:

    Why not copy Denmark: Where contraceptives are given, freely, to all teens aged 15 and above, and confidential counseling?

    We are sexual creatures, and we ARE going to seek the closest intimacy available., mp matter the ranks of naggers who wag their tongues.

    Motherhood ought to be an Opt-In choice and the same could be said of fathers.

  7. beerBoy says:

    Sozo – so when it comes to Apaches being protective of their heritage you agree with aislander’s assessment that being offended is a way of controlling others but when it comes to the proven fact that Abstinence Only programs don’t work you find any reference to that reality an insult to young people everywhere……..

  8. Omega6234 says:

    People that have abortions are those that are irresponsible and selfish…. its that simple. I know plenty of people who have never had an “accident”, because they were something people dont have a lot of today, “responible”. Abortion shouldnt be used as a crutch for the weak, but then again.. do we really want these selfish, lazy people reproducing?? probably not.

  9. alindasue says:

    walkineasy said, “The main problem I see is that the supposed pro-lifers also don’t want any type of birth control used. Take a look at these pro-lifers profiles. They are almost entirely white males. These guys still want to control everything and tell women what they can and cannot do. ”

    Take a look at this pro-lifer profile:
    I am a 47 year old mother of 6 – so, yes, I know what causes it. I support the idea of a universal health care program (even though I personally have insurance) and would be willing to pay a bit more in taxes for its implementation. I am clearly and vocally anti-war, although I did support my husband during the six years he served in the army. I feel the best way to “support our troops” would be to let them rejoin their families at home instead of forcing them repeatedly to take sides in a civil war or three in the middle-east. And I am not opposed to birth control and use it myself, but do teach my daughters that the only forms of birth control that are 100% effective are removing the reproductive organs (like spaying a cat) or just not having sex.

    Now that your stereo-types about us pro-life types have vanished in the light of day, I will state clearly: I DO NOT consider abortion to be a viable form of “birth control”.

    I do believe in choice. I believe that a woman not only has a right, but a responsibilty to choose what she does with her own body – while it is still just her body that she is making the choice for. Plainly put, if you are so dead set against getting pregnant that you would be willing to kill any fetus that might develop, then CHOOSE to not to have sex.

    There is the arguement for cases of rape, which is the one time when a woman’s right to choose has been taken from her (and the reason for a very small percentage of the abortions performed). I submit that if all those “pro-choice” people spent half the energy they spend trying to make abortion acceptable on creating a campaign to take the stigma off being a rape victim, that more women would be willing to come forward immediately right after the attack when “Plan B” drugs can effectively prevent pregnancy from occurring.

    A woman’s failure to choose responsibly before conception should never be a reason to take away the resulting fetus’s choice to live.

  10. Why does the Party of smaller less intrusive government and individual personal responsibility suddenly become the Party of people cannot decide by themselves so Big Brother will decided for all of you?

  11. alindasue says:

    xring said, “Why does the Party of smaller less intrusive government and individual personal responsibility suddenly become the Party of people cannot decide by themselves so Big Brother will decided for all of you? ”

    I don’t think this is strictly a Republican vs Democrat issue. I know in my case at least that political party affiliation has nothing to do with my pro-life beliefs.

    xring, you’ve seen me in other threads. You know about my refusal to join political parties, and you also know how often I am accused of being a “liberal” – but this is a moral issue. Too often “choice” is a word mis-used by people who want to do whatever they want without having to take responsibility for the results of their choices.

  12. BlaineCGarver says:

    I sadly shake my head when women lament not having total control to kill a human life in their body. Although, from a practicle standpoint, I’m sure losing all these children of idiots and morons will greatly imporve society over the long run.

  13. BlaineCGarver says:

    I amost forgot….I’m upset to the point of revulsion that my tax money goes to kill babies. If murder of babies is to remain legal, I demand that I not have to contribute to their demise.

  14. BGC – rest assured you federal tax dollars do not go to fund abortion.

    ALS – to have or not have an abortion is a moral issue. The right to make that choice is a Political issure.

    While one can find ‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life’ life people in both parties, the pro-lifeers dominate the Rpot prarty.

    And it is that party that claims any government interferrence in the rights and lives of individuals is wrong – except for this one issure.

  15. walkineasy says:

    Blaine, you say “I’m upset to the point of revulsion that my tax money goes to kill babies. If murder of babies is to remain legal, I demand that I not have to contribute to their demise.”

    I say “I’m upset to the point of revulsion that my tax money goes to kill soldiers in a war we shouldn’t be in and our country was lied to by it’s then leaders in order to get us into this war. If murder of our loyal soldiers to fight a civil war between factions in a foreign country is to remain legal, I demand that I not have to contribute to their demise.”

  16. Roncella says:

    Joan, Just how many Abortions do you consider too many ?

    Is 43 million abortions a Year World Wide enough for you ?
    Is 1.3 million abortions a Year in the U.S, enough for you ?

    Its obvious that abortion is being used as birth control by millions of men and women and not to save the life of the female or in cases of rape or incest.

  17. sue1234 says:

    Once again, 77% of anti abortionists are rightwing MALES.
    Why is that? These men suffer from anxious masculinity and abortion is their last bastian of control over their women. It is pathetic and sad what we have such a large number of American males who sense of manhood is contingent upon controlling their womans uterus.
    The republican congress got upset because a congressman used the word uterus on the floor of the senate. So even the name of female body parts are threatening to these fools. Women in America will not be free until these poor insecure old white men die off.
    Here is an interesting fact. Muslim terrorists are anti abortion also. My question is… why do rightwing males and females hold the same value as a terrorist? Muslim terrorists like strict control of their women. Why do republican males hold the same values as a terrorist?

  18. sue1234 says:

    Roncella.. abortion is always birthcontrol. How can you be so non thinking?
    Have an abortion..no birth.. duh?

    Roncella. god is the most prolific abortionist there is… perhaps you need some education in biology , especially conception and gestation. Your knowledge in many areas is very immature and not based on facts.

  19. BlaineCGarver says:

    No one is interfering with the rights of women….they have the right to be responsible. The rights of a six month old fetus are or should be the same as a six year old child. Any other explaination is just blowing the smoke of dishonesty up yer bum….

  20. Roncella says:

    Sue 1234 once again you are on the opposite side of an issue.

    How in Gods name you can compare conservatives to muslim terrorists if beyond most resasonable peoples understanding.

    Your comments are so far out you have do be on some very strong meds. You need to review what meds. you take and lighten up fast.

    Abortion because the baby is an inconvience is murder in many peoples opinions.

    Sue so in your opinion 43 million babies murdered in one year is just fine with you, Right !!!

  21. Fibonacci says:

    xring and sue1234
    We are usually on the same page but there are problems with your arguments. The decision to have or not have an abortion is very much a personal and moral decisionb–politics have nothing to do with it.

    Sue1234–how wo you come up with that 77% of prolifers are men? The choice to be pro life or pro choice is a philisophical one. If you believe that the human life starts at conception, then abortion is murder–the mother’s body is irrelevant. If you believe that human life begins at some later stage then an abortion is a personal decision to not givre birth.

    Without agreement on WHEN life begins, neither side will EVER convince the other. I find myself somewhere in the middle, I don’t believe abortion should bre illegal, but for God’s sake use a condom. Yes I know that they are not 100% effective but I bet very few women getting abortion used and protection or had a partner that did. They gambled and lost.

  22. Fibonacci says:

    Once again I fail to proofread and remove typos before posting. Mea Culpa.

  23. KARDNOS says:

    “redneckbuck says:
    May 6, 2011 at 9:31 am
    The choice is made when you have unprotected sex. A loving mother does not kill her unborn son or daughter.”

    How can you kill what has not been born?

  24. KARDNOS says:

    I’m guessing redneckbuck is a big supporter of Plan B

  25. KARDNOS says:

    “BlaineCGarver says:
    May 6, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    I amost forgot….I’m upset to the point of revulsion that my tax money goes to kill babies.”

    Another liar in the fight against legal abortion for all women.

    I’m revolted that my tax money went to the murder of Iraqi civilians in shock and awe.

  26. KARDNOS says:

    The best birth control possible is for a man to keep his pants on.

  27. KARDNOS says:

    If you want to know about pregnancy, consult Sarah Palin. She seems to think that letting teens sleep together won’t result in pregnancy.

  28. aislander says:

    The premise of this letter is a lie. No one in Congress is trying to end abortion. The law is and has been that Federal dollars shall not go to pay for it. Does anyone remember, by the way, that abortion was legal in Washington and several other states BEFORE Roe v Wade?

  29. Publico says:

    Most of pro-life’s position can be directly connected to religious beliefs. It is those beliefs, which can only be true if they are presupposed to be true, that cause the argument to go on and on. The pro-life people are driven to jam their religious beliefs down the throats of everyone else and they love to use the inflamed rhetoric of “murdering babies” to make their unsustainable points.
    An embryo is not a human being. A fetus is not a human being. Being a human being invites personhood and that is what a baby attains when it is born.
    An unborn child is totally dependent on its mother host and, with the exception of being the same species, the relationship is not unlike that of a parasite and its host. The natural failures of that relationship account for more natural abortions than any other kind.
    “Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.” And the pro-lifers need to keep it to themselves, please.

  30. larsman says:

    Margaret Sanger (founder of (un)Planned (non)Parenthood was an ardent follower of the same “Master Race” foolosophy as Freud, Hitler and Marx.
    She was adamantly opposed to the proliferation of the Negro race and advocated the “removal” of those with birth defects.
    She stated her agreement with the author of “Mien Kampff” and copies of several of her published (NY Times 1920’s-1940’s) eugenics articles were found in the possession of Heinrich Himmler.
    Condoms for preventing AIDS is like a chain-link fence protecting from bees in your yard.
    Luke 1 : 41-44
    Psalm 139 : 13-16
    Jeremiah 1 : 5

  31. larsman says:

    Publico advocates for the freedom of speech/press…….only if it agrees with him.

    Pub. I’m not at all interested in monitoring your personal menu habits.
    ( throat jamming ?, sounds like what you aspire to)…

  32. What in the world are you talking about bBoy? When I say that we “insult” teens, I am using a rhetorical phrase that has no parallel to an actual insult such as the one in the Geronimo incident. You must be awfully bored today to reach that far for something to argue about.

    Abstinence Only programs may not work because the horse has already left the barn. What I mean is that we’ve given kids the idea they do not have the capacity for restraint for so long, I doubt that we can convince many of them otherwise now. It really is too bad because recreational sex really does spoil the beauty of saving that very special treasure –that unique intimacy–for the person you choose to spend your life with.

    Adding abortion to a young woman’s life experience prior to marriage is an additional blow. It means taking a whole lot of baggage into a marriage when you finally decide you want to settle down.

    I’m in favor of encouraging abstinence and teaching kids about birth control in the event their resolve vanishes in the heat of a hormone storm. It’s pretty simple really.

  33. xtp855 says:

    If you don’t like abortion……..don’t get one.

    Why is that so hard?

    Why do you rightists ALWAYS have to control others and force your opions and morals onto everyone?
    What is wrong with freedom?

  34. xtp855 says:

    “Margaret Sanger …………”

    And my theory gets stronger and stronger.

  35. princessnancy says:

    We will never reach an agreement on this subject. That is why our nation needs to quit debating the subject and just let everyone be “pro choice.” I believe it is a woman’s choice on what she does with her body and the choice to abort her unborn child. It is not yours and it is not mine.

    The woman is the one carrying the child and raising it to adulthood; probably without the benefit of child support from the father. Therefore, there is a very good chance that the mother and child will be on the welfare system and we will all be supporting both of them.

    It’s so easy to say “give the baby up for adoption.” If every aborted baby was carried to term there would not be enough families to adopt them all.

    I was raised Catholic, am still Catholic, I’ve never had an abortion and don’t know if I ever could have had one. But, I do not have a problem with someone else having that option.

    Can’t we just agree that in a civilized society we all have the right to make an individual choice concerning our body. Maybe it isn’t what you would do, but a woman has the right to make that choice…not any of us should make that choice for her. Surely, we don’t want woman to go into backrooms that are filthy to get an abortion like they did many decades ago. They put themselves at risk and often times were never able to have children after that abortion.

    Let me ask, who hasn’t made a mistake in life?

  36. xtp855 says:

    Do you know what you call kids that receive abstinence only training?


  37. Ithappened2me2 says:

    Kard, you spent too much time here. We were expecting you elsewhere.

    Looks like Sue and xtp got into the computer room again.

  38. Fibonacci says:

    You state “an embryo is not a human being”–you make my point. That is the crux of the matter. To some, the embryo IS a human being. That is what stops the debate before it even starts. As to there is no human life until birth, I think you lose on that one. Murders have been convicted of double homicide when they kill a woman that is too far along in the pregnancy. I have trouble finding that exact point when the fetus becomes human. The morning after pill–fine in my book it is not a person yet. In the delivery room before the baby is delivered and the cord is cut–definetly a person. When is the exact moment of the change?

  39. KARDNOS says:

    Men that oppose abortion should demonstrate doing their part by remaining abstinent.

  40. According to the website of the National Right to Life Org. the last time there were 1.3 million abortions in the US was in 2001, and the rate is now down to 1.2 million per year.

    Which means in any given year, less than 1 woman in every 100 has an abortion.

  41. bobcat1a says:

    Keep government out of our lives; put it in our doctor’s offices.
    As long as government doesn’t interfere with oil company subsidies, it’s all good.

    Prospective platform planks for the 2012 Republican campaign

  42. Polago says:

    alindasue says:
    May 6, 2011 at 11:36 am

    “Take a look at this pro-lifer profile:
    I am a 47 year old mother of 6 – so, yes, I know what causes it…………….”

    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2011/05/06/on-mothers-day-real-respect/#ixzz1Ld6R2ty1

    Great comment! Great comment!

    One can be pro choice and be anti-abortion.

    One can be pro-life and pro-choice.

  43. beerBoy says:

    My cousin is a nurse who provides birth-control education. Whenever someone (usually Catholic) asks about the Rhythm Method she responds that yes, the Rhythm Method is very effective – her mother and father used the rhythm method and my cousin’s 12 brothers and sisters are a result of it.

    sozo – don’t follow your logic on this……are you saying that Abstinence Only training would be effective if only it were followed?

    Bristol Palin is a spokesperson for Abstinence Only. I think she is the right choice – just like my aunt is an excellent example of Rhythm Method – because her life experience demonstrates just how effective the approach is.

  44. Polago says:

    The link I provided in my previous comment was incorrect. To see alindasue’s comment follow this link:


    Well worth the read.

  45. How come these ‘get government out of our lives zealots’ actually want the government to get involved in women’s lives over this? I myself would never get an abortion, but I also would never wag my finger at a woman who makes the choice!

  46. Roncella says:

    Frida, With the World having 43 million abortions a year, your finger is going to fall off from all your finger wagging.

    Having an abortion for convience is murder.

    Having an abortion to save the life of the Mother, or in cases of rape or incest is acceptable.

  47. LarryFine says:

    Gianna Jessen
    On April 6, 1977, Gianna’s 17 year old birthmother (named Tina) sought a saline abortion at seven months pregnant. Saline abortions involve injecting a caustic saline solution into the amniotic fluid, which (normally) causes the fetus to be scalded to death and then delivered dead. In this case, however, things didn’t go according to plan. In the early hours of April 7th, Tina went into labor and gave birth to a living baby girl, Gianna. Fortunately for Gianna, she was born before the abortionist had arrived at the clinic for the day. As a result, instead of being killed at birth by the abortionist, she was transported to a hospital. She was severely injured by the abortion attempt, requiring a three month stay in the hospital, but she survived to be placed in a foster family specializing in high risk babies.
    As a result of injuries from the abortion, Gianna was diagnosed with cerebral palsy. Doctors believed she would never be able to sit up, let alone walk. She surpassed all expectations. Today she is able to run, dance, and walk…and has even taken up rock climbing. She has also become a tireless advocate for the pro-life cause.

    Many would expect Gianna to be bitter or angry about the fact her birthmother tried to abort her, especially at such a late point in the pregnancy. However, Gianna does not have any hatred towards her birthmother. She has forgiven her mother for the traumatic circumstances of her birth and treats the post-abortion women who hear her speak with compassion.

    On April 22, 1996, Gianna testified before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on the issue of abortion. Sadly, out of 13 members of the subcommittee, only 2 were willing to listen to her testimony; abortion supporters boycotted the meeting.

  48. LarryFine says:

    Ana Rosa Rodriguez
    Look at the picture of Ana Rosa Rodriguez on the left. At first glance, she might look like an average little girl to you. However, if you look closely, you’ll notice that this child is missing her right arm. That’s because her arm was ripped off in the process of an abortion on New York’s Lower East Side in October of 1991. Ana Rosa was 32 weeks old at the time of the abortion. It was performed by legal abortionist Abu Hayat. Rosa, Ana Rosa’s mother (who was only 20 years old at the time), had told Hayat that she had changed her mind and didn’t want to go through with the abortion.

    “He said that it was impossible to stop, that I had to continue,” Rosa told New York Newsday. According to Rosa, Hayat’s assistants held her down while he sedated her. When she awoke, she was told that the abortion was incomplete and that she should come back the following day. That evening, however, she experienced increasing pain and bleeding. Her mother took her to Jamaica Hospital by taxi, where, five hours later, baby Ana Rosa was born. Aside from the loss of her right arm, Ana Rosa is a perfectly healthy little girl.

    As unfortunate as the maiming of Ana Rosa was, she and her mother are very lucky they escaped from Hayat without further injury. Other incidents Hayat, a member of the National Abortion Federation, was involved in:

    On September 18, 1990, Hayat performed an abortion on 17 year old Sophie McCoy. The next day she was taken to a hospital and found to have a perforated uterus and sepsis. An emergency hysterectomy was performed, but Sophie developed disseminated intravascular coagulopahty and died on September 26. Sophie’s mother found paperwork for Hayat’s facility in Sophie’s coat pocket. The case was reported to the district attorney and the New York Health Department, but nobody took any action against Hayat
    In March 1991, Hayat refused to complete an abortion on Marie Moise after he demanded an additional payment of $500 in the middle of the abortion and Moise’s husband could not pay the $500. He forced the woman to leave the clinic bleeding and with an incomplete abortion. She nearly died from the resulting infection.

  49. beerBoy says:

    sozo – so rhetorical political correctness is OK because…….?

    ron – so let me get this straight – “abortion is murder” because the fetus is a human being when the pregnancy is inconvenient but it isn’t murder when the fetus was conceived through rape or incest or if the woman’s life is at stake.

  50. LarryFine says:

    Baby Grace
    On August 4, 1999, “Baby Grace” was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton, Ohio. She was a victim of an abortion clinic run by Martin Haskell, who helped “pioneer” the partial-birth abortion procedure. The partial birth abortion technique requires two days of dilation of the mother’s cervix before the child can finally be pulled out of the womb feet first and killed. Baby Grace was born when her mother went into labor prematurely, during the dilation phase. According to Dr. Haskell, these premature births (in a statement on the Baby Grace incident, Haskell’s clinic referred to Baby Grace as a “miscarriage”) happen in one out of one hundred cases. Baby Grace was born during her mother’s 26th week of pregnancy. She survived and is expected to do well.

  51. LarryFine says:

    Ximena Renaerts
    Ximena’s odessy with Vancouver General Hospital began on Dec. 16, 1985, the day she was born. After attempting an abortion at a free-standing mill in Bellingham, Wash. Ximena’s birth mother entered VGH, where she gave birth. According to court documents, staff delivered the child into a “hat”–a plastic pot–and then senior nurse Vera Wood whisked her away. Ximena was placed in a room “where dead fetuses were stored,” even though she was “moving, gasping, (and) crying weakly.”

    Court documents say Wood checked back some 26 minutes later, to find the child still alive. A nursing supervisor was called and arrived almost an hour after Ximena’s birth. She found the child still in the “hat,” uncovered, on a stainless-steel counter. By the time the Infant Transport Team arrived, Ximena had suffered a severe loss of heat, which in turn caused extensive and permanent brain damage.

  52. beerBoy says:

    And how many of those miracle babies have you adopted Larry?

  53. LarryFine says:

    It’s not about me… nice try tho. (you have no idea)

  54. LarryFine says:

    Baby Hope: Another Victim of Partial Birth Abortion
    Like Baby Grace, Baby Hope was born when her mother went into premature labor after the first day of dilation for a partial birth abortion. Baby Hope is believed to have been around 22 weeks old when she was born. Doctors decided she was not well-developed enough to survive, and so she struggled for life for three hours until dying. Baby Hope was fortunate in one respect: She was held and comforted by a compassionate emergency room technician as she died, rather than being brutally killed by partial birth abortion as she was supposed to be.
    [The Full Story of Baby Hope's Birth and Death | Senator Mike Dewine on "The Lessons of Baby Hope"]

  55. LarryFine says:

    “freely chosen, each time a pregnancy occurs” … interesting considering.

    Pregnancies don’t just “occur”.

  56. KARDNOS says:

    So Larry has a bunch of nice stories, but doesn’t include the source because we will all know that the stories are probably as fiction as the ghoulish pictures they hold up at anti-choice rallies.

  57. KARDNOS says:

    “LarryFine says:
    May 7, 2011 at 8:31 am
    “freely chosen, each time a pregnancy occurs” … interesting considering.

    Pregnancies don’t just “occur”.”

    Absolutely correct. If men would refuse to participate in sexual intercourse, not one woman would become pregnant.

  58. KARDNOS says:

    Uh….Larry……google will take me to Right Wing Anti-Choice websites. Is that were you want me to go?

    Note that I didn’t lose my temper and call names. It might tell you something about being called on one’s BS

  59. KARDNOS says:

    Baby Hope.

    Now, I just wonder if the first name is “Baby” (visions of Dirty Dancing)

  60. KARDNOS says:

    Baby Hope. Baby Faith. Baby Grace.

    Fascinating names

  61. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    KARDNOS says:

    ”So Larry has a bunch of nice stories, but doesn’t include the source because we will all know that the stories are probably… fiction… ”

    The king of un-sourced opinions… er, I mean statements, calls-out the kettle, LMAO. How convenient.

  62. KARDNOS says:

    And when you google “Ximena Renaerts”

    You get a flock of anti-choice websites.

    Of course when you read this kind of rhetoric –
    “After attempting an abortion at a free-standing mill”

    You know what to expect.

  63. KARDNOS says:

    Oh…how cute….the next personality comes out and does “Larry’s” dirty work.

    Meanwhile, I’ll just keep posting facts.

  64. KARDNOS says:

    “DeWine is known for his pro-life voting record. In the Senate, he wrote the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. The bill prohibits violent acts against unborn babies to be disregarded under federal law.”

    This is a real surprise.

  65. KARDNOS says:

    Oh…by the way….it’s Dewine’s own wiki…..if you need to know….

  66. KARDNOS says:

    “KARDNOS says:
    May 7, 2011 at 9:55 am

    “The king of un-sourced opinions… er, I mean statements, calls-out the kettle, LMAO”


  67. KARDNOS says:

    OK, Bob….send out our next contestant……..LOL

  68. MarksonofDarwin says:


    One of the things all those stories has in common is that they were all late-term abortions. I am pro-choice, but I would love it if we could compromise on this part of the debate.

    The reality is that any compromise is doomed is due to the fact that nobody will ever agree on when an abortion should not be performed….and it’s also a fact that many women will simply seek out the black market if she is desperate enough. There’s also the very real possibility of pro-life ideologues using ANY compromise to further inch toward making criminals of desperate mothers of an unplanned pregnancy.

    I wish there could be a compromise….but the goal of the pro-life movement is always going to be prohibition. And the goal of the pro-choice movement is for abortion on demand.

    Also…you said to bB “you have no idea”. I might have some idea! If I remember correctly, you have some experience in this dilemma. I have never told you, but I do respect your opinion on this subject because of that. I have never had to face this decision, but if pressed to answer what I would do….I don’t believe abortion would be my choice either.

    It’s a difficult choice, and just like every other profoundly personal choices we make in our lives….any government involvement is out of line.

    Oh, and to everyone else:
    Larry & Vox are two separate people. If you can’t tell by the difference in their styles….then you’ll just have to trust me on this. I’ve been posting here for a Loooooong time!

  69. menopaws says:

    Once again–a bunch of men, sans uterus, discussing the reproductive issues of women……We Moms make difficult choices every day of our lives….. I am so damn sick of men with expensive haircuts and high dollar suits telling me what I can and cannot do with MY body. If they could mandate lap dances, trust me, they would! Pro-choice doesn’t mean we enjoy abortion–it means we wish to be respected for making private choices and private decisions concerning our bodies. Women are NOT chattel and I don’t see much difference between the Taliban forcing women to cover themselves and not attend school than a bunch of white males telling women that what they do with their uterus is a decision of state or local government. It is appalling to me that women are treated with so little respect under the code name of “protecting life”. You want to protect life fellas? Give women equal pay for equal work, give women privacy in their health care; understand that Planned Parenthood gives poor women mammograms, cancer treatment, medical care that they cannot otherwise afford. Mind your own business and trust women to make thoughtful decisions about their own destiny…….We are NOT murderers. We are also, NOT second class citizens who need your “guidance” to help us navigate our way through life’s decisions. And, please shut up about the abortion issue–it really is tiresome listening to those who know so very little preach to those who must pretend that what they offer to the discussion is even relevant!

  70. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    MarksonofDarwin says:

    Oh, and to everyone else:
    ”Larry & Vox are two separate people. If you can’t tell by the difference in their styles….then you’ll just have to trust me on this. I’ve been posting here for a Loooooong time!”

    They’re right you know – so have we. And if it weren’t for an overly-zealous wizard at the controls, everyone else would know too.

    But don’t spoil our fun, MsoD. It’s really quite hilarious to watch hypocrisy in action – especially coming from the most proliferous of all known trolls here.

  71. I’m sorry men have messed with your mind as they have menopaws, but you are surely aware that your personal experience/bias bursts through your posts on this every time.

    I am not a white business man in a suit. I am a woman in roughly your age-range and I represent many women in my peer group who consider themselves pro-life though I hesitate to use that term because it’s now so loaded with caricature imagery as to be provocative.

    I am in fact pro-choice, also hating that term because it suggests something that is false in my case.

    God is pro-choice; free will and all that. This does not mean that all choices are moral or right. The Bible says all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial.

    If I could have my way young people would choose to abstain from recreational sex; choose to reserve that level of intimacy for a committed, loving, long term relationship. If I had my way, they would choose to use protection in the event they do not wait. If I had my way, once a baby is conceived, she would be carried to term and raised by a loving family.

    When people suggest that there is a contradiction in folks wanting a smaller government but being in favor of legal action against abortion, they fail to respect the fact that for people like myself, it is no different than having laws on the books to prevent homicide. After all, I am a free agent and can kill my husband if he ticks me off, but the law would not permit me to do so without consequences.

    Don’t get yourself all worked up over this, please. I get it. You don’t see abortion as murder. I do. So do a lot of other women. And may I suggest you seek therapy for your issues about men in suits.

  72. P.S. meno: Just as you are “so damn sick of men with expensive haircuts and high dollar suits telling me what I can and cannot do with MY body, ”

    I am damn sick of women using feminism as an excuse to be arrogant, presumptuous and self-serving. There are good men in the world and lousy ones. There are good women in the world and some whose company most of us would prefer to avoid. That’s reality. Your sweeping generalizations render your commentary non-credible.

  73. LarryFine says:

    Have I stated whether I was pro-life or pro-abortion ?

    The true stories of failed abortions are plenty abundant. It’s not difficult to find instances of abortions gone wrong and it’s even less difficult to understand how could and does happen…
    Partial-Birth Abortion
    Five steps to a partial birth abortion:

    1. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby’s legs with forceps.

    2. The baby’s leg is pulled out into the birth canal.

    3. The abortionist delivers the baby’s entire body, except for the head.

    4. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby’s skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.

    5. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child’s brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
    … and having an opinion on this is above Obama’s paygrade. “Cute”…

  74. alindasue says:

    I’ve been trying to stay out of this conversation, beyond my initial comments yesterday, but I have to reply to this.

    KARDNOS posted:
    For those wishing the truth ”

    “Truth” is often exaggerated on both sides of the issue, so I looked to see what they had to say about the pictures. Mostly they were just talking semantics, whether a fetus in a picture was this many weeks old or that many weeks old and things like that – important only if the age of a fetus is important for you to determine its status as a “person”.

    In only one case mentioned was the picture fully proved to be fake. I’d never really felt the need to go to one of the pro-life sites and looked at the images before. Now that I’ve seen them on your “pro-choice” link, I don’t want to see them again.

    KARDNOS, you and I have agreed on many issues, but I’m afraid we are miles apart on this one. We do agree on one thing though:

    “The best birth control possible is for a man to keep his pants on. ”

    To that, I’d also like to add:

    … and for a woman to keep hers on too. That is a CHOICE that both can make about their own bodies.

  75. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Well said, alindasue.

    I too find this topic a diffiuclt one. But I have to say that while abortion in certain instances is… at least, understandable, the wholesale acceptance of it as a means of ex post facto birth control (especially as so strongly advocated by the abortion industry) is just wrong on so many levels.

    While it may sound simplistic, the ”keep your pants zipped” approach – by both sexes – is at least a solution on which both sides can agree.

    Now get ready for the ”heat of the moment/ hormones” argument.

  76. Roncella says:

    beerBoy, Your playing games with your post.

    First of all the fetus is a Baby, innocent and beautiful and helpless shame on those who would kill it for convience only.

  77. larsman says:

    Woman-o-Paws fact-check-fails – “understand that Planned Parenthood gives poor women mammograms,”

    They do not.
    That has been an advertising “teaser” propagated by the current president of
    ( un ) Planned ( non ) Parenthood for the purpose of maintaining the Federal and State funding apparatus.
    Perhaps you would enjoy validating this for yourself?
    Here’s the local # : 253-779-3900…Good luck.

    (homework / validation-fail)…

  78. Polago says:

    You approve of killing the “baby” innocent and beautiful and helpless, for reasons other than convenience, Roncella?

  79. Roncella says:

    If a woman is raped or there is incest involved then an abortion would be an alternative.

    Polago, is 43 million abortions a year enough for you or just how many would be too many in your opinion ???

  80. Polago says:

    I am anti-abortion, Roncella. More-so than you seem to be.

    If you had bothered to read my comments you would know that.

  81. menopaws says:

    Let’s be very clear–men who want to use legislation to interfere in my decisions are men that I have a problem with. We should also be allowed to control why and how often Viagra is given out to the male population. We should have a public discussion about those pills and restrict who gets to take them, don’t you think.? Those choices could be made for bad reasons and I should, as a citizen, be allowed to control those “bad” choices. When I am allowed to control when and how they get their Viagra–then, I will feel equality. Most of the men in my life respect my intellect and respect my integrity……but, government is not now, nor should it ever be the place where private choices are open to decisions made by strangers…..those gentlemen, such as it is, do not earn either my respect . So, yes, I have problems with men who use their position to control women. I am a wife, a mother and a grandmother. I respect and understand the choices women make and I do not judge anyone for their choices. My “therapy” comes from knowing that courage and integrity is not gender specific and those who fail to respect women deserve my contempt.

  82. How do you feel about the contempt shown to men by Hollywood, meno?
    The depiction of men as apish morons whose only interest in life is sex? As buffoons created in reaction to Ward Cleaver and Father Knows Best, whose only contribution to society is to provide a foil to their brilliant, patient, wise wives and girlfriends (who, ironically were stupid enough to hook up with them in the first place)? Any problem with the million-dollar salaries that go to men like Charlie Sheen?

    For the record, the producers of that idiotic sitcom he was in should be on trial for child abuse, along with the young actor’s parents (the kid who has grown up on the show in the role of Sheen’s admiring nephew) — for casting the child in that cesspool and allowing him to essentially grow up there.

    Let’s face it, our values and mores are so upside down and inside out right now, it’s almost impossible sort it all out. Interesting that the bottom line on abortion comes down to what our parents and grandparents taught us many years ago…”Leep your pants on, boys, and girls, keep your knees together.

    Misinformed elders once taught kids that they’d go blind if they engaged in a particular activity; today we imply that something’s wrong with a kid who hasn’t had sex before leaving high school. What a mess we are leaving our children and grandkids.

  83. KARDNOS says:

    alindasue – the healthy thing about a disagreement with you is that there is thought put behind your comments and mine. I can roll in the mud when required, but I trust that won’t be the case with you. That being said….

    The website I posted contains substantial detail. I hope you had the chance to digest it completely. When I was a senior in high school (68-69) there was a course offering “Bionomics”, which dealt with real life issues in terms of sexuality and reproduction. The course was ahead of its time for the late 60s and required parental permission to participate. We did extensive study of gestation and as I read the life and liberty website, particularly the quotes from the nursing professionals, much of what I learned came back to the surface. In short, the photos that are used for shock value are not biologically accurate. That website is a response to the lies presented by people that wish to stop legal abortion, which is not the answer to “unwanted pregnancy” either.

    Then we go on to quotes of the number of abortions annually. Since this medical procedure is a private matter between physician and patient, how would these numbers be available? Aside from that question, I would ask if abortion is as frequent as these people claim, why be opposed to Plan B, which is not an abortive, but would be a solution to the problem? As you are aware, most opponents of abortion oppose Plan B also.

    My comment about men controlling themselves is a very real answer to unwanted pregnancy. A woman cannot impregnate herself without male participation. If every male on earth did not participate in intercourse without agreeing to becoming a father, the problem is solved, regardless of how many women remove their pants.

  84. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    As a man, I am a bit offended at the level of sexism shown by menopause’s comments. It appears her fixation extends to the first three letters of her moniker.

    I would be willing to bet there are as many female pro-life advocates as male.

    As for viagra, when they start dispensing it for free at the local Planned Parentless, then you might have your moral equivalency.

  85. KARDNOS says:

    As to statistics – it is claimed that there are 1.2 million abortions in the US. Roncella claims 43 million, thus must be quoting the worldwide number.

    This brings me to the conclusion that Roncella is focused on a small minority of abortions and should, if intellectually honest, travel worldwide to take his message to the other 41.8 million.

  86. KARDNOS says:

    As a man, I find nothing sexist about Menopaws’ comment.

  87. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    KARDNOS says:

    ”As a man, I find nothing sexist about Menopaws’ comment.”

    Kardy post count – this thread:
    21 out of 91 – yawwwwwwwwnn…..

    You really like seeing (one of) your name(s) in print, ‘eh Kardy.

    Two days ’till topic changes – keep it up man – 25% of the total is within reach. Heck, we’re so impressed with your prowess why not go for 33%? You know, nothing from nothing…

  88. Shouldn’t it stand to reason that when someone is pro-life they would also support a national health care system so children could have a reasonable opportunity for a healthy life? There are one million homeless children in this country who have no health care.

    The situation reminds me of a bumper sticker I read which rings true, “Republicans are pro-life—Until birth”.

  89. alindasue says:

    KARDNOS said, “The website I posted contains substantial detail. I hope you had the chance to digest it completely.”

    I’ll be honest. I’ve digested about as much as I am going to from that site. I have no desire to view it again. I said above, knowing the acurate age of an aborted fetus is only important if the age of a fetus is important for you to determine its status as a “person”. It’s not to me. In my eyes, from the time the embryo starts to develop, it is a person. That is the beginning and end of my views on abortion.

    As I said, we disagree on this issue.

  90. alindasue says:

    Sorry, KARDOS, I accidently bumped the “submit” button before finishing.

    As I was saying… I respect you and your views, but I can’t agree with you on this issue.

    I do agree with you about Plan B. As you said, it is not an abortive; it prevents conception from occuring if administered in the first day after intercourse. I suspect that many people confuse it with RU-486, which is an abortive. Plan B is especially useful for cases of rape or “date rape” if we can get the victims to go for help in time.

    There are some people who don’t like any form of birth control for religious reasons. My own church’s stated view on the subject (I’m LDS) has been that the decision to use birth control is between the couple and the Lord, but I know that’s not always the case with all churches.

    I know, you might look at that “I’m LDS” aside and think “she’s a Mormon; of course, she’s pro-life because her church says so.” Actually, my pro-life leanings stem from long before I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a teenager. I learned my value for life from my mom and her parents. My mom who says she’s “Christian” but feels pretty much the same way about churches that I do about political parties, is also strongly pro-life, fortunately for me. I was born three weeks shy of her 18th birthday, three months after my parents married. Grandma and Grandpa were Agnostic and Athiest respectively.

    In regards to when you said, “My comment about men controlling themselves is a very real answer to unwanted pregnancy. A woman cannot impregnate herself without male participation.”

    It still takes two to tango… or conceive a child. If a man or a woman exercises self control, it cuts down on the chances of an unwanted pregnancy. If both make the CHOICE to exercise self control, prevention is assured.

  91. alindasue says:

    cirrus said, “Shouldn’t it stand to reason that when someone is pro-life they would also support a national health care system so children could have a reasonable opportunity for a healthy life? There are one million homeless children in this country who have no health care.”

    You would think so. I know that’s why I do.

  92. beerBoy says:

    Larry – What you left out is the statistic that late-term abortions (aka post-viability abortions) are performed in only 1.4% of abortions in the US. Anecdotal evidence is convincing for those who already are convinced but really offer nothing but emotional response.

    And that’s where the debate is (at least on this site) – emotional response – on either side. And that leads to the attempt to demonize anyone who doesn’t share your views (alindasue, MoD and perhaps a few others excepted).

    Ron – I was trying to point out to you that, if you believe that abortion is murder, leaving the incest/rape/mother’s life loophole in there isn’t consistent. It isn’t a game for me to point out the inconsistent logic you are employing.

    The whole self-restraint meme is less than realistic. On an individual basis abstinence is the most effective practice but it does not make for effective public policy. Early contraceptive education and easy access to contraceptives is the best public policy.

    sozo – Hollywood is run by people who want to make a profit. They produce to the least common denominator because it is profitable. I agree that much of what they produce is garbage and crassly panders but you seem to give them far too much power when it comes to shaping the culture which they reflect.

  93. LarryFine says:

    “only 1.4% of abortions ” … gosh, that makes me feel sooo much better about it. So last year just over 10,000 babies either had their brains sucked out or were scalded to death in utero… Happy Mothers Day !

  94. beerBoy says:

    So…..you are making an emotional pitch against late-term procedures – and not striving to use this as a propaganda campaign against all abortion?

  95. bBoy, I’ve been around awhile. I used to enjoy the discussion about whether TV reflects or affects behavior. Sadly, I’ve seen enough evidence to suggest that both may be true. Human psychology interests me. There’s something about validating a behavior by “glamorizing” it in a TV show or movie. (“If they’re into it, it can’t be all that weird or bad.”) Before you jump on that, I realize it’s an oversimplification. All I’m saying is that I believe kids are very much influenced by the things they see in videos, movies and TV.

    And since I’m on the subject, I argued at the time that President Clinton’s dalliance with Monica Lewinsky would function in a similar way, and I think it did. The fact that our president behaved like a drunken frat rat in the Oval Office, and parents et. al. defended him sent a message to kids; I truly believe it did, including the one that says some kinds of sexual encounters aren’t really sex.

    Slowly but surely over time, the culture has put its stamp of OK on recreational sex, sexual experimentation, adultery, etc. We can’t help ourselves, even when we are the president of the United States.

    Sad stuff.

  96. Roncella says:

    Sozo, Some of our leaders and well known politicians like Kennedy and Clinton, john Ewards, were terrible roll models for the nation.

    All are very wealthy and well known and the main stream media falls all over them, except for kennedy who has met his maker already.

    There are some very good roll models out there but they usually don’t make the headlines, and the main stream media is not interested in them.

  97. KARDNOS says:

    alindasue – From what I see, the only thing we disagree on is that a segment of the population wants truth, as opposed to inflammatory rhetoric.

    If you are of the mind that a conceived embryo is a baby, then I can understand your distaste for the site.

  98. KARDNOS says:

    Vox – why don’t you see if you can contribute less, considering 50% of your contributions are just personal attacks on the contributors that have nothing to do with the subject matter.

    I’ll make up the difference for what you don’t post, because I’m having decent dialog with others.

  99. KARDNOS says:

    “Roncella says:
    May 8, 2011 at 9:06 am
    Sozo, Some of our leaders and well known politicians like Kennedy and Clinton, john Ewards, were terrible roll models for the nation.”

    Roncella carefully sidesteps the laundry list of Republicans such as Newt, Vitter, Mother of the Year Palin, etc…..

  100. beerBoy says:

    sozo – I have been around for awhile too. Looking back at some of the old movies/tv, I miss the brilliant script writing typical of movies with actors like Cary Grant. Humphrey Bogart or James Stewart but…..one can also see casual references to wife beating or racist stereotypes that are quite offensive today.

    While it is true that the media helps shape culture, the commercial culture has to reflect what is popular in order to be commercial. If there were no Market for the crap that is put out in Tinsel Town, the crap wouldn’t continue to be produced.

  101. Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:

    Vox_clamantis_in_deserto says:
    MAY 7, 2011 AT 10:01 AM
    KARDNOS says:

    ”So Larry has a bunch of nice stories, but doesn’t include the source because we will all know that the stories are probably… fiction… ”

    The king of un-sourced opinions… er, I mean statements, calls-out the kettle, LMAO. How convenient.

    KARDNOS says:
    MAY 8, 2011 AT 9:20 AM
    ”Vox – why don’t you see if you can contribute less, considering 50% of your contributions are just personal attacks on the contributors that have nothing to do with the subject matter.”

    Skipping the obvious pot/ kettle thing this time, I would really love to see you prove that garbage. But then backing up your fallacious assertions is not really your game… is it.

  102. Agreed, bBoy. I am not one to bowdlerize the 40’s and 50’s and I am glad we left some of that nastiness behind us. And of course, commercial media is always about the money; they will produce what will sell. The chicken/egg syndrome is at work here. I appeciate your point about superior writing. Perhaps as offensive as the cheap humor is the absence of artistry in todays comedy.

    For the record, I am a fan of a clever bawdy joke; Shakespeare knew how to deliver in that arena. Too bad today’s writers don’t know the difference between wit and vulgarity.

  103. LarryFine says:

    Excellent observation on the kettle Vox.
    For the record bB, I don’t have an issue with the day after pill, but I have a big problem with delivering all but the head of a fully formed , premature, viable baby and sucking his/her brains out (or the scalding method)… as far as your “emotional” comment, when you make an argument against waterboarding, would it be fair to say it’s based on “emotion” ?

  104. beerBoy says:

    LF – I think you are claiming a false equivalence – this is what I posted:

    Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death.

    That is a fairly straight forward, almost clinical description. I did not present individual case histories (which are available).

    You posted anecdotes about babies with names in an obvious emotional plea.

    btw – I am not supportive of late term abortions. It is somewhat absurd to think that the woman would need 5 months before deciding.

  105. LarryFine says:

    “Obvious emotional plea” ? Real stories about babies that survived the brutal procedure of late term abortion …

    Well, if you feel that an emotional plea somehow minimizes the obvious barbarity and immoral act than so be it. Politicians use names of ‘real’ people frequently when they’re on their soapbox.

  106. beerBoy says:

    I would think that, because politicians do it, that would be reason enough to avoid the tactic.

    Also – the procedure you are describing is Intact dilation and extraction aka partial birth abortion which, though it accounted for 0.17% of all abortions in the US, was banned in 2003 by the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

  107. KARDNOS says:

    “LarryFine says:
    May 9, 2011 at 5:28 am
    “Obvious emotional plea” ? Real stories about babies that survived the brutal procedure of late term abortion … ”

    REAL STORIES????? Oh pleeeeeeeeeease…..

  108. KARDNOS says:

    Vox…..I posted the website twice for you. If you can’t read, I can’t do anything more.

  109. Roncella says:

    KARDNOS, I will ask again is 43 million abortions enough for you world wide a year ? how many would be too many in your opinion, not googles ???

  110. KARDNOS says:


    Since 41.8 million of those abortions are not in the United States, I have nothing to say about them as I’m not a citizen nor a voter of those countries.

    As to 1.2 million in the US my comment is – it’s a shame that 1.2 million men didn’t avoid sexual intercourse and created a pregnancy. Without them, the women could not have had an unwanted pregnancy.

  111. theogsters says:

    Joan, your letter is exceptional, well done. It seems those who oppose a woman’s right to choose are either Puritanical control freaks or men who believe women should be subordinate to the male of our species. It’s always encouraging to see a woman exercise her independence and fight back. May those of your persuasion prevail.

  112. aislander says:

    theogsters: Your understanding of Puritanism is waaay out of date. There always has been that streak in American politics, but it no longer expresses itself in the old sexually repressive manner. Instead behavior is controlled through political correctness, laws mandating recycling, policies that drive up energy prices and make driving a car as inconvenient as possible. That is the NEW Puritanism, and the traditional media are promulgators of it…

  113. “PC” is now and always has been a right wing construct.
    It’s used by the right to vilify anything that might supress thier, bigotry, hate and racism.

  114. Well said aislander but I don’t expect folks who are bigoted against the religious will be able to see it or hear it. Ears stopped up and all that.

    Theogster, you are out of touch if you actually believe what you wrote here. I am neither Puritanical nor am I a male. I am an independent woman who finds Joan’s logic faulty and her understanding of motherhood limited.

  115. aislander says:

    By 1970, New Left proponents had adopted the term political correctness.[1] In the essay The Black Woman, Toni Cade Bambara says: “. . . a man cannot be politically correct and a [male] chauvinist too.” The New Left later re-appropriated the term political correctness as satirical self-criticism; per Debra Shultz: “Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the New Left, feminists, and progressives . . . used their term politically correct ironically, as a guard against their own orthodoxy in social change efforts”. (sic)

    From wikipedia

  116. aislander says:

    The New Puritanism is not limited to only the examples I provided above: there are many more instances of the left’s using governmental power and cultural pressure to impose its agenda. As someone of that persuasion averred, everything is political, and the offspring of that mindset is called totalitarianism…

  117. beerBoy says:

    A word wonk using wikipedia (which, being created and edited by the users is almost guaranteed to be politically correct) for a definition of political correctness.

  118. aislander says:

    I used the wiki reference because it contained the citations for the examples I drew from it. I did not use wiki as a primary citation…

  119. LarryFine says:

    There’s more than one way to kill a third trimester baby bB… but you knew that.

  120. beerBoy says:

    but you were the one who referenced the method that is now illegal… but you knew that.

    Again – to be clear – I am not supportive of abortions in the third trimester, just pointing out that an emotional plea against all abortions based upon anecdotes of botched third trimester abortions isn’t exactly intellectually honest.

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