Letters to the Editor

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UNIONS: Union-government bargaining is corrupt

Letter by Edward A. Starbird, Steilacoom on March 18, 2011 at 2:09 pm with 176 Comments »
March 18, 2011 5:00 pm

“Fair negotiations” are like real estate deals or company merger, with a “free and willing seller” and a “free and willing buyer.” “Free” means free to go to a different buyer or seller. This implies competition on both sides. “Willing” means willing to accept this deal, another or none.

Price fixing, monopoly or cartel is not fair negotiation because one side (or both) isn’t “free.” A strike or a lockout that can’t be bypassed isn’t “free.”

A worker vs. a company is “fair” as long as each is free and willing. If one side can “demand” or punish the other, who is not free to go elsewhere, then it is extortion.

A union vs. a company can be a fair negotiation if both are truly free. But if the union is in fact a large monopoly or the company can control all potential workers then it is not. The last union strike against Boeing was extortion. Damage to Boeing was maximized, and the union could control all potential aircraft workers as well as other sympathetic unions.

A contract between a government and a union on money matters is not called negotiation but rather is called “bargaining.” It includes both extortion and bribery. The bribery is money from the union for “contributions” and other help to government politicians to get them elected. The politicians then give sweetheart pay and benefit bribes to the union. The extortion includes both bribery and punishment of politicians to enforce the union agenda.

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Leave a comment Comments → 176
  1. So the state employees extorted the taxpayers by taking less money, less benefits and less pension.

    Interesting concept

  2. Apples to oranges comparisons and they have nothing whatsoever to do with job safety and security.
    I’m sorry Mr. Starbird, your letter does not qualify because it is more nonsense that anything with the exception of being thinly veiled union bashing.

  3. Great letter, Mr.Starbird! The unions were corrupt in the 30-40s, and they are more corrupt today. “No Union should have the power to hold a state or federal government hostage.” I think President Reagan made that very clear when he was in office. Right on, Gov. of Wisconsin!

  4. Fibonacci says:

    BLAH BLAH BLAH Unions bad-corrupt-evil-BLAH BLAH BLAH.
    Union haters just keep spouting the same crap over and over and over again, ad naseum. I don’t even belong to a union but these letters make me wish I could go out and join one just to p*ss them off.

    Yes, it is BARGAINING, not EXTORTION. Look up the definition.

  5. BlaineCGarver says:

    A letter of value. I wish it could be made a “sticky” when people don’t understand what is going on with public sector unions.

  6. Reagan Voices support of Poland’s Solidarity Movement:
    http://www.history.com/audio/reagan-voices-support-for-polands-solidarity-movement#reagan-voices-support-for-polands-solidarity-movement

    “Saint: Reagan’s “Solidarity With Free Unions: Yesterday the Polish Government, a military dictatorship, took another far-reaching step in their – – –

    http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/157025-saint-reagans-solidarity-with-free-unions.html

    A word from Ronald Regan –When the Polish government declared martial law to crush Solidarity,

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/06/023822.php#

    BGC – so you may remain fair and balanced make sure your sticky includes the above, along with X-60’s and Publico’s comments.

  7. Ronald Reagan was a former Union boss.

  8. klthompson says:

    I constantly hear the drum beat that the workers are being deprived of their right of collective bargaining. What “right” are they talking about. The constitution guarantees all kinds of individual rights. “Collective” rights aren’t mentioned. Having said that, and having never belonged to a union, I have no problem with organizing to bargain with businesses and corporations. They are taxpaying enterprises. Or they were before government began interfering with free enterprise. Successful businesses do not need contributions from the taxpayers. If they do they should be allowed to fail. Public sector employees used to be satisfied with Civil Service protections in lieu of some pay. I suggest we go back to that or start some wholesale terminations if they want to belong to a “collective”.

  9. As usual xring d.o.c.s with an apples to snot balls comparison…

  10. cclngthr says:

    klthompson,
    Workers do have the right to expect certain wages and certain benefits. An employer cannot employ a person, not pay them a decent wage and expect them to work at hours that are not negotiated.

    A friend of mine operates an auto repair business and expects employees to work over 40 hours a week and at times HE wants them to work, which may be from 7 AM to 6 PM one day, and he calls them to work at 8 PM one day to work on cars until the car is finished, or (if he could) work one day, and not the next.

    That is illegal.

  11. This letter writer needs to take a course in Labor Relations. Unions help bring a delicagte balance of power between workers and owners (or Executives). For a long time in the history of capitalism owners, often represented by boards in corporations, held all the power. There was no middle class and corruption riened supreme due to corporate buying of public officials. Some enlightened super-rich, like Carnegie helped sway genral public opinion so that union members and organizers were not mowed down by public law enforcement and were allowed to represent the workers. In private business, powners can lock out union employees who are not bargaining in good faith, and employees can strike if the owners are not bargaiining in good faith. Both are pretty powerful ammuniotion to reach a reasonable agreement. If unions and/or management continue not to bargain in good faith, the law allows courts to require binding determinations by a third party.

    This letter is just a farce perpetrated by someone who is totally uneducated, or worse yet, who wants to present falsehoods to stir up more ignorance (as witnessed by those who profess to agree with this nonsense.).

  12. Geez, some of these comments just prove that ignorance is an excuse(to be a liberal). Great letter, it’s the point that FDR made, and it is why unions for public employees and collective bargaining have no place in our society. Make the union membership voluntary, allow employees to opt out. Let the union prove their worth to their individual members. Currently the unions hold altogether too much power, just as employers held way too much power prior to unions existing. It’s about time to get the pendulum back somewhere in the middle, versus the extreme power hold unions have today.

  13. So the unions have too much power and that is why the Republican Gov. of Wisconsin is able to abolish most of what they represent.
    Does no one see that the reason for having a union in the public sector is exactly and precisely illustrated by Walker’s action? He will take away everything they worked for with countless administrations of all types and shapes.
    And please, for the Reaganites, Reagan fired the air traffic controllers because they violated the law not because he thought unions were inappropriate.

  14. I remember Ronald reagan as a gutless draft dodger, and D-List Actor !

  15. geeterpontiac says:

    Good article in the WSJ regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703560404576189011057064084.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

  16. TSkidmore says:

    As someone who has negotiated labor agreements in both the private and public sectors for 30 years I can tell you the letter writer does not have a clue as to what he is talking about. Collective bargaining brings all the parties who do the jobs together to discuss problems and challenges on the job. Problems are solved and wages and benefits are adjusted for the time. Get rid of collective bargaining and there is no forum in which to problem solve for management or labor. I have had managers of large corporations tell me at the bargaining table that without the labor agreement larger HR operations costing millions would have to be established and they would not work as well. The problem really is that neither the unions or their managers explain this to the taxpayers. No unions equal more costs and incompetent management. Take the voice from workers and your troubles will just begin!

  17. truthbusterguy says:

    What have events in Wisconsin taught us? We learned what collective bargaining agreements contribute to budget woes and that powerful public sector unions use mandatory membership and dues to help elect the politicians they negotiate with. Is this fair to taxpayers?
    Untold in the media is that in 1978 the Civil Service Reform Act placed limits on collective bargaining, union membership became optional and dues payments not compulsory. President Carter and a democratic congress realized they needed to curb union influence over government. Their vision reined in union power by making federal employment an “open shop”.
    We are a union friendly state but the donations, power and influence of public unions over elected officials in Olympia needs be changed. Why treat state workers differently from federal workers? Like federal workers, state union membership and dues payments should be made optional. If state workers like their unions they can send the union a check. If they want to offset the pay cut the union negotiates they should be able to opt out of dues payments to help make up the difference.
    The present system allows unions to elect their bosses. A simple solution, that is fair and logical, is to use the federal workforce model for state workers.

  18. Hey Fibonacci, how does a “Liberal” respond to the truth? How about,
    BLAH BLAH BLAH. Maybe your uppers are falling out.

  19. More than anything a Conservative hates the truth:

    Screen Actors Guild President
    Ronald Reagan
    1947-1952, 1959-1960

  20. “What have events in Wisconsin taught us?”

    Republicans Governors will provide billions in tax breaks for business and blame it on working class people.

  21. TMell applauds a letter writer that appears to have copied and pasted his letter to the editor. Same falsehoods, same rhetoric.

    Why am I not amazed?

  22. X_6zero. “How can you tell when a liberal is lying?” Well, you should know, “when his/her lips are moving.” BLAH BLAH BLAH, WHINE WHINE
    WHINE

  23. There are two things Deodorant is obsessed with.

    My monkier and facts that prove the truth.

  24. crusader says:

    It’s called quid pro quo..

    Educate yourselves.

  25. denismenis says:

    Lemme see – companies give campaign contributions to legislators and Congress in exchange for – what? Tax breaks, less regulation.

    = more money.

    That’s bargaining in my book, too.

  26. denismenis – it is bribery in my book.

  27. True, the Unions are bribing the legislators.

  28. the3rdpigshouse says:

    Government unions should not exist!! The government can be bought and paid for with forced union dues! The pay and benefits is not controlled by making a proft on the sale of a product! The only limit to the pay and benefits is the limit on available tax monies and the same government people control the rate of taxation!!

    Qid Pro Quo!! – Quid pro quo is a latin phrase that means literally something for something. It is usually used in financial terms to indicate a type of agreement. (e.g. government union contract – We will vote to give you money for supporting my reelection).

  29. gowenray says:

    I’m sure there are licensed companies in this country who make shoddy items under dangerious work place conditions with a mined workforce that work under exploited conditions.
    When I see some publicised efforts by paid union officials to expose those companies and improve the conditions for those mined employees instead of deciding which elected official to take to lunch next week, then maybe I’ll acknowledge their worth. Right now they’re a drain on a workers paycheck contributing little to our gross national product. After all, you can’t take a “paid political annoucement” to the bank.

  30. Hey X_6zero, you will appreciate this. “What’s the difference between a liberal and a puppy? A puppy stops whining when it grows up.”

  31. crusader says:

    Don’t forget in Washington we get the unfettered joy of tribal quid pro quo as well as state employee unions.

    Ms. Gregoire pocketed those checks nicely when she ensure indian gaming monopolies.

  32. ttown508 says:

    I dont know if this has been said already, but public jobs should not be unionized! Tax payers pay those employees, that is our money going to unions. Unions are good for workers dealing with private industry.

  33. Judging by some of these comments, it’s a good thing that public employees are union members, otherwise these people would eat them alive.

    There’s safety in numbers.

    We’re all in this together.

    (some of us appear to be more together than others)

  34. “ttown508 says:
    March 19, 2011 at 8:29 am
    I dont know if this has been said already, but public jobs should not be unionized! Tax payers pay those employees, that is our money going to unions. Unions are good for workers dealing with private industry.
    —————————————————————————————————–
    The Slave Master attitude. “Our money”. Geez, I thought those people worked for that money. People like TTown seem to think they are doing government employees a favor by paying them.

  35. usha – and you’ll appreciate this.

    What’s the difference between a Conservative and a person with an IQ below 40?

    Nothing.

  36. Or how about…

    What’s the difference between the 1995 Congress and the 2011 Congress?

    Nothing.

  37. Mr Edward Starbird…….your’e letter is right on and gives the true facts. I am going to fwd it on to some in the DC/Beltway.

    Ignore some of the comments…they are government workers or retired gov union boys. Bribery is so accurate. Extortion should be obvious to anyone.

    Gregwire and the unions drove Boeing into the arms of South Carolina. Guess why Boeing moved it’s hd’qtrs to Chicago.

    I have a friend in Madison and he said all the demonsrators in Wisconsin were brought in by Trumpka and Unions.

  38. The difference between Obama policies and the failures of Marxism and Communism residing on the trash heap of human history?

    Nothing. Zip. Nada.

  39. You have to love how the Conservatives rewrite language.

    Concessions on pay, benefits and pensions = bribery

    Why did Boeing move to Chicago and South Carolina? Tax concessions.

    Try looking up “extortion” in the dictionary.

  40. crusader – quote one “Obama policy” to us.

    Betcha can’t.

  41. Truthbusterguy your post is the most accurate and truthful one posted here.

    You state exactly the facts and have clearly won the argument for why Public Sector Union Bosses have way to much power over the elected (mostly democratic) politicians, not only in Washington State but all over the nation.

  42. “I have a friend in Madison and he said all the demonsrators in Wisconsin were brought in by Trumpka and Unions.”
    —————————————————————————————————

    I have 20 minutes of phone coversation that says the Governor of Wisconsin is a liar.

    If all the demonstrators were brought in by unions, then I guess the teachers didn’t take any time off and all those complaints were lies also.

  43. Roncella:

    Your cheerleading is nauseating.

    LiarLiarPantsonfire’s first contention – “What have events in Wisconsin taught us? We learned what collective bargaining agreements contribute to budget woes” – is nothing but a lie.

    Bargaining units had already conceded financial issues. The governor gave away the revenue to business interests that financed his campaign.

  44. Imagine that. TSkidmore, who apparently makes his or her living off this corrupt system believes in it. Really? What a shocker! Hmmm, all the democratic legislators that have been elected by the unions, and are controlled by the union also believe in the current system too….

  45. So if a government union contract is corrupt what then pray tell is a defense contractor flying members of the defense apportions committee to St. Andrews Scotland for a few rounds of golf and days of lavish living just before the committee is to vote on a major contract involving the contractor and the pentagon?

    What: my apples, your snot balls.

    Wall Street Journal on Unions; sort of like Westboro Baptist on San Fans Castro District.

  46. Fibonacci says:

    fbergford
    Why is it that you only want those that think differently than you to stop posting. The conservatives here just keep telling the same lies over andover and over again, but you are fine with that huh?

  47. Fibonacci says:

    TMell

    Republican legislators bought and paid for and controlled by big business just fine with you, but God forbid, unions which represent average people should contribute to politicians that agree with them. That is bad. The workers should just shut up and be greatful for whatever crumbs business is willing to throw them.

  48. The public employees, through their union representation can and will come to agreements with the state that reflect the current economy.

    The more people use words like corruption, bosses, cartel, extortion, bribery, etc. to improperly describe the relationship between labor and management, whether it be with privately owned corporations, or public entities like our state, through duly elected officials who represent the interest of the public, the more it seems that these employees desperately need that representation.

    Management, public and private, is represented at the bargaining table, why is it necessary to strip labor of that same ability?

    I know, I know. It’s all about the Democrats.

    But wait! In Wisconsin, the Republican Governor couldn’t muster up the backbone to properly negotiate with labor’s representatives. He took the cowards way out and stabbed labor in the back.

    That back stabber is your hero, Edward?

    Because he has no backbone, labor should have to give up theirs?

    Pathetic!

    This is what happens when the GOP get a foot in the door.

  49. polago …I don’t know where you have been or where you hang out but you are wrong wrong wrong. It is bribery and extortion. The unions and the democrats have made a deal to bribery and corruption….your are blinded by being to close to unions and democrats.

    Edward Starbird has it 100% right.

  50. sorry …you cannot see the forest …..cause of the tree’s

  51. Gowenray: go look up Upper Big Branch Mine.

    Ttown508: our money goes to individual state workers, some of whom belong to unions.

    As soon as our money is in the workers hands it is no longer our money but their money to do with as they wish.

    Right wing real speech: truth is what the party tells us it is and is passed on by FOX and the other right wing talking morons.

    Fberg brings nothing but childish taunts and threats.

  52. Each side has the same level of power in negotiations.

    Each side gets to support and elect their representatives. The voters and taxpayers, have a say in who represents management’s side in negotiations. Union members have a say in who represents labor’s side.

    How can it be more democratic than that?

    This is nothing more than a witch hunt. McCarthyism at it’s worst.

    When unions were strong, so was our economy.

  53. This forum reminds me of a Thomas Jefferson quote: “What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”

  54. Polago-and democracy is exactly what worked in Wisconsin, in spite of the disgusting actions of 14 people who deserve to be recalled-that refused to do the job they were elected to do.

    mrenchito-with his thinking ability, I believe his snail moniker was more fitting. That was hilarious watching you take him apart the other week!

  55. TMerll, in a representative democracy, where there is not a direct vote on the issues, the representatives are supposed to actually represent the will of the people. The governor ran on negotiating with the unions, not destroying them. The people of the state overwhelmingly support the unions ability to represent state workers at a (Fox poll 67% or neutral poll 72% or progressive poll 76% -take your pick). So, who is refusing to do the job they were electede to do? The lying Republicans, that’s who.

  56. donjames says:

    Make this, the 62nd response to Mr. Starbird’s letter, a heatrfelt thanks for accurately, if not completely, presenting the case against public unions.

    As for Mr. Skidmore, I think a quick review of Mr. Starbird’s letter might enlighten him/ her to the difference between public sector and private sector unions, for the sake of relevance.

    No one is arguing against the usefulness of unions – only mandatory membership thereof, and the folly of public sector unions.

  57. Well D_J if you and the neo-con horde are so sure why not get up a petition and bring it to a vote of the people.

  58. :::::eyeroll:::::

    Installed new window in my garage while MR creates five monikers to talk to herself and stalk me

  59. “ratujack says:
    March 19, 2011 at 12:08 pm
    sorry …you cannot see the forest …..cause of the tree’s”
    ———————————————————————————————-

    The tree’s what???????? What are the trees in possession of?

    “Your in America now, speak American.”{

  60. Tmell – are you still telling lies like you did in your LTE?

    When MR has to speak to a subject in context to the issue, she falls apart.

    I will hand it to her on spin, though. She’s almost as good as her hero, Michelle Malkin, but comes up sounding like Michele Bachman

  61. Since the Conservatives are so fond of quoting FDR on public employee labor rights, I’m sure they endorse this quote from The Great:

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward.

  62. TMell, you’re smarter than that. Do you actually think that those Democrats were elected to stand there and allow the Republicans to steam roll them? I don’t think so.

    You would be outraged if it were the other way around and your republican friends didn’t do all they could to stop this nonsense.

    But, If you consider what happened in Wisconsin, democracy, than you should have no problem with the way we do things here in Washington.

    Maybe you’d like living in Wisconsin.

  63. Fibonacci says:

    donjames
    About that mandataory union memborship. Would those optiing out of the union, if that was their choice, also turn down any labor agreement that benefited them? Of course not, they are happy to take any raises or benefits aren’t they, they just don’t want to pay their share of the cost.

  64. You’re absolutely correct, Fibonacci. Why would a republican pay dues for negotiated wages and benefits that could be had without paying dues.

    Voluntary dues would be a joke. But they know that. That’s why they make those silly suggestions.

  65. slasmith says:

    Fibonacci, would the union members not complain if someone who opted out negotiated a better deal for themselves based solely on th fact that they had a better work ethic and ability than most of the union members?

  66. The liberals here just keep telling the same lies over and over again, but you are fine with that huh?

  67. Nice one donjames.

  68. Polago-I don’t expect you to like it, but yeah, what they did by running was chicken crap. That is the way a democracy works. Look what Obama chose to do when he had control of 60 seats in the Senate. Work on the economy or jobs? No-he chose to use the political position he had to shove through Obamacare. People that disagree with it are doing what they can to combat it. Both on constitutional grounds, and to create laws to get rid of it. If and when Democrats take over Wisconsin, if they don’t believe in the laws on the books today can change them. In the event that voters think Walkers actions were wrong, or going in the wrong direction, they will hire Democrats who will restore colllective bargaining. Or, Wisconsin will get control of their states budget like Indiana did, and as a nation we will realize that Public Unions collective bargaining “rights” has not worked, and more states will shift that direction.

    Democracy has worked in this state. We are one of the most backward, blue states in the nation, led around by King County. But that is democracy. I have testified in our states legislature, and am working hard to change the representatives in our state. I live in a district that is already Republican, but I got involved in a nearby race that was close. I campaigned for Rossi, and so desperately wanted him to upseat Murray. We as a state are realizing how much further in the red we are than previously thought. Hopefully our state will start going after wages and benefits. Don’t know if you missed it in previous threads, but 25% pay raise in 2 years for many state employees? That’s outrageous. And we are supposed to be impressed by furlough days supposedly representing a 3% reduction in pay.

  69. Tuddo-depends on the poll, and the way its asked.

    Strip collective bargaining “rights”-most everybody says no

    Limit collective bargaining rights to wage increases to a max of inflation-totally different poll results.

    There was no negotiating with the union. They only finally offered up concessions when they knew they were beat. Walker rocks, and is doing the right thing for his state. LOL, don’t you have issues with the two states with Democratic Governors where public employees DO NOT have collective bargaining rights?

  70. you liberals are so totally brainwashed it makes me laugh. So our Gov collectively bargains on behalf of the states public unions. She then in turn will get a huge donation to her political endeavors. So how is this fair to the tax-payer? Who is collectively barging for us?
    I say let the people write a check to their unions and not have it taken out of their checks and see how the unions will fall. They do nothing for their members as I am a union worker and receive nada from the seiu.
    Another point I would like to make is that those of you who think you are going to get a lofty public pension better start saving your pennies because your promised money is spent. Gone, kaput…you will never see a dime of it.
    I for one totally resent that I might have to pay for a public employees retirenment. What made you so special.
    The unions are going down and they will take the sheeple with them.
    bye, bye

  71. D_J, liberals are also taking things in context.

    What Solomon is saying is that a wise man’ heart directs him while a fool’s heart does not.
    (Today we would replace heart with mind).

    Towards the right is an idiom for at the right hand which always seems to be the hand of justice and protection.
    (Today the right is the GOP/NEOCON which for Unions are offer no justice and protection)

    Wisdom allows us to see the course of a matter. And that course will provide protection and justice. While a fool deals so often in the moment and what is seen.
    (Another way to think of it, we walk and drive on the right side of the road, so when a fool moves left he moves into oncoming traffic)

    http://www.gracenotes.info/ECCLESIASTES/ecc20.html
    Parenthetical insertions are my own

    Tmell and you fellow right wing trolls
    Democracy is alive and well in Wisconsin in the form of court cases and recalls,

    The major difference between Mr. Obama and Walker is that Obama ran on health care reform, Walker DID NOT run on union busting.

    Re: “25% pay raises in 2 years” Of course you can supply references for this.

  72. @ X_6zero – are you getting paid per post by the community activist (unions)? I saw that add on Craigslist too! pretty good gig at a penny a post.
    If you are a government worker we really have problems.

  73. TMell, if hyou could explain how stripping the unionsm of bargaining rights does anything for the budget, then please do so. Even the Governor finally admitted it had nothing to do with the budget crisis. If management stands their ground and bargains in good faith, then they hold all of the power. Since state employees cannot strike, then they forfeit their jobs and move on. The whole charade is a lesson that the people ofWisconsin have learned: never trust a Republican. It amazes me that anyone in the working class or middle class suppoorts an all-out assault against everyuthing that keeps a middle class strong in America. I am not just talking about unions, but the wholesale selling off of America and the surrender of all power to the top 1% and corporations.

  74. Unions exist precisely because of what happened in Wisconsin. We need a US Constitutional Amendment that guarantees union formation rights and the right to bargain. Strikes can be prohibited when public safety is a factor.
    All the anti-union comments I have seen here and other places are for the most part pure nonsense. Not missing also is a measure of envy coming from some who appear to be incapable of holding a job that requires them to measure up to union standards.

  75. “Hopefully our state will start going after wages and benefits.”

    What I saw in another thread, TMell, was a state worker who made only $13/hr, which may be more the norm than the exception.

    This union issue is used as a diversion. The real money is in going after the wages that aren’t taxed. An income tax would tax people who can actually afford it, and not miss it.

    Maybe we can get a buck or so out of that $13/ hour public employee, but that isn’t going to touch our 5.3 Billion dollar shortage, not like an income tax would.

  76. alindasue says:

    Polago,
    To add to your comment: my union negotiated wage as a state paid caregiver with 9 years on the job is $10.70/hour. Based on what I’ve seen, I also am pretty sure $13/hour is closer to the norm.

    slasmith,
    I’m pretty sure that the “no tax” crowd would probably take more offense about an individual negotiating a higher wage than a union member would. However, I do question your implied assumption that union members are either less skilled or have a worse work ethic than someone who chooses to opt out of the union.

    I’ve been in both union and non-union state/government paid jobs. It’s been my observation that there are hard workers and lazy people in both environments.

  77. Fibonacci says:

    alindsue
    I also have worked in my present profession in both union and nonunion jobs. I have found no difference in the employees, but a big difference in the management area. My point was, while in a union, we had workers that resented being forced to belong to the union, they were pretty much Republican conservatives which is fine with me. What I had a problem with is that when wage increases or increases in health benifits, or workinig conditions came around, every single one of them accepted. If they would have donated their’s to charity for example I would have respected them a lot more. They wanted the benefits but did not want to help pay the cost of bargaining.

  78. What you’re saying is typical of the right, Fibonacci. They are anti tax, anti dues, anti government, and anti union, but they willingly receive all the benefits of citizenship and membership.

    They want everything for nothing.

    Union members are the taxpayers. They work for and receive a descent wage and spend it close to home, which benefits the local economy.

    The anti taxers run to Portland and buy online purposely to avoid taxes.

    Then they blame all of their problems on unions and government.

    No matter how poorly they treat public employees, it will make no difference to Washington’s budget. Its a fools errand.

  79. The unions are certainly a corrupting influence. However I find the amount of money being spent by corporate America even more corrupting.

  80. “A contract between a government and a union on money matters is not called negotiation but rather is called “bargaining.” It includes both extortion and bribery. The bribery is money from the union for “contributions” and other help to government politicians to get them elected. The politicians then give sweetheart pay and benefit bribes to the union. The extortion includes both bribery and punishment of politicians to enforce the union agenda.”

    Everything you just said here can be applied to corporate America.

  81. donjames says:

    Fatuous, while I agree (sorta’) that all free people should be equally concerned with the influence, on government, of union and corporate money, I am having a bit of difficulty associating your second post with the business-as-usual machinations of corporate influence on government.

    Unless you are referring to the comparatively small portion of any public sector budget that actually goes to private contractors, there is no parallel. Although your point has wings, your analogy doesn’t fly.

    The vast majority of government contracts awarded to private sector contractors are not negotiated. Rather, they are generated following a very stringent bid process – usually involving many bidders, and which bid processes are open to public review.

    Additionally, private sector contractors can be terminated for many reasons – including failure to perform, or even just for convenience. Out of line benefits packages aside, I would have one hell of a lot less trouble with a public sector union contracts if the same standards applied.

    Corporate money injected into an election, or used to support or defeat legislation has no guaranteed outcome. Can you say the same for a public sector union contract?

    Clearly, in any blue state you point to, unions have benefitted – at taxpayer expense – from a system of bargaining whereby the interests of “management” have been corrupted in favor of labor. And as for red states, all it takes is a lot of money, and a win in one election.

  82. Tuddo, Polago, Publico
    There are many unskilled jobs at the state, and they don’t pay super well. For instance, AlindaSue at 10.70 an hour as a caregiver. For her job, thats a good wage. Go check out what the rest homes pay. Closer to 10.00 an hour. In my job, I literally see hundreds of peoples wages a year, so it’s nice to be able to personally view paystubs from different jobs/positions. She is well compensated FOR her skill set. She also isn’t radically over-compensated.

    Governor Walker REMOVED the specfic budgetary parts, stripped down the bill to a core that could be called non-budgetary to avoid needing a quorum. The rest of the bill still has to be pushed through. The unions only agreed to concessions when they knew they didn’t have the political pull or the will of the people to make it happen. Without removing collective bargaining, the moment the tide changes, the unions would have held the state hostage again. What many of you liberals apparently fail to realize is many states have no collective bargaining “rights”(hate to use that word because it makes it seem like it is a “right”). LOL, now you think we should have a state income tax. Even presented as class warfare, it was defeated! We don’t have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Look at what Gregoire has done, bloating our states employment rolls, and building crap EVERYWHERE. So many empty buildings, she is like one of my kids who can’t keep the dollar in her pocket. That’s why I make them put 50 cents in the bank, then go buy candy or whatever wasteful spending they want with the other. If only Gregoire had the common sense of a parent.

  83. So, you’re teaching your children that it’s OK to waste half of their money, TMell, and you call that common sense?

    Nothing should go to waste. Every resource we have should be used wisely, even tax money.

    This state desperately needs an income tax. If for no other reason than to close the budget gap. An income tax will take the tax burden off the shoulders of those who can least afford to pay and distribute it amongst those of us who have healthy incomes, well above $10.70/hour.

  84. I think donjames and the rest of the Hallelujah Conservative Chorus missed this little item in the news:

    The monthlong saga over Gov. Scott Walker’s plan to drastically curb collective bargaining rights for public workers in Wisconsin took a turn Friday that could force a dramatic rebooting of the entire legislative process.

    A judge temporarily blocked the law from taking effect, raising the possibility that the Legislature may have to vote again to pass the bill that attracted protests as large as 85,000 people, motivated Senate Democrats to escape to Illinois for three weeks and made Wisconsin the focus of the national fight over union rights.

    Name call as you must, Conservatives, facts and truth drive you crazy.

  85. xring – now you’ve gone and done it. You’ve taken the mythology book that they love to manipulate and put it in context.

    Luckily for me, I don’t live by mythology. Just facts.

  86. Oh MR….considering the judge’s ruling…..

    How’s that wetlands special session working for Walker?

    It appears that the misdirect (which you so love) didn’t work too well in a court room. It rarely does.

  87. And, again, how can that law constitutionally apply to certain public sector unions and not all.

    He’s pandering to the lowest form of humanity.

    “Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.”

    Whose going to speak up when they come for you?

    We’re all in this together.

  88. “Governor Walker REMOVED the specfic budgetary parts, stripped down the bill to a core that could be called non-budgetary to avoid needing a quorum.”

    Which is better known as lying. First Walker says the legislation is needed to save the budget, but then it’s not a budgetary issue so that he can manipulate the vote?

    No wonder the people of Wisconsin are angry:

    “A new Rasmussen poll found Thursday that a clear majority of Wisconsin voters oppose Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) efforts to strip collective bargaining rights for public employee unions.

    Fifty-two percent said they oppose weakening collective bargaining rights, while 39 percent were in favor of it”

    Of course, as a CONservative stipulated earlier in this thread “a friend of mine from Madison…..”

    Yeah….uh huh.

  89. The judge’s ruling is a judge from Dane County. No problem, it will be tested, and it will pass or fail that test. Additionally, it will be determined by their court systems if the law was passed legally, and if the judge in Dane County has any authority to make their ruling.

    Polago-I call it “waste” in a discussion with adults(and x-ring and Judas). My children don’t consider the things that bring them pleasure waste. I have a Harley, a boat, a nice truck and a nice home. I don’t consider these things waste either. They bring me pleasure, and good times with my family.

    There are many principles regarding savings you and our legislature could benefit from. Read the millionaire next door sometime. Or read “The richest man in Babylon”. Its actually not religious, its short, and dangit even Judas and all his other monikers could understand it. The basic premise in it is a 70/10/10/10 rule. 70% toward living expenses, etc., etc. 10% to charity, 10% to savings, and 10% to enjoyment. At 6 or 7 years old, I believe my children should utilize some of their money for enjoyment. They work to pick up pinecones in our yard after a windstorm. Heck yeah, they should enjoy the fruits of their labor. And if that means getting to use a significant portion of that money for candy, good from them! As they get older, the goals change. With my 16 year old, her babysitting money goes largely for gas and insurance. I was raised in the same manner, and it has served me well through my life. I don’t stand around begrudging others success; I go make my own in this amazing nation that allows all of us to be born equal. From then on, its up to us what we do with our life. You may think we need a income tax. I disagree. Our sales tax is already a progressive tax based on foodstuffs being excluded. I guarantee you I pay 10 times the sales tax than a family at the median income line in our state. And Paul Allen and Bill Gates pay WAY more than I do. See, as you have more disposable income, many people tend to spend more. I go out more, I tip the servers well, I pay my almost 10% in taxes. With our progressive tax system already in place at the federal level, you should be happy. What are your thoughts of abolishing the Earned Income Credit. This would solve massive problems in our federal system? It’s just another form of welfare. I have no issue with someone not paying any federal income taxes that makes 24,000.00 a year. But should they get a bonus of unpaid taxes based on how many kids they have produced?

  90. TMell says:
    March 20, 2011 at 9:09 am
    Tuddo, Polago, Publico
    There are many unskilled jobs at the state, and they don’t pay super well. For instance, AlindaSue at 10.70 an hour as a caregiver. For her job, thats a good wage. Go check out what the rest homes pay. Closer to 10.00 an hour. In my job, I literally see hundreds of peoples wages a year, so it’s nice to be able to personally view paystubs from different jobs/positions. She is well compensated FOR her skill set. She also isn’t radically over-compensated.”

    How much money does the state have to pay to inspect and regulate said industry? By the way, they are called “long term care facilities” which demonstrates how out of touch with the industry you are.

    Yes, you have CNA’s starting at $10.00 per hour, but you have LPNs that start at about $15 per hour (going upwards from there and there is such a shortage that agencies do placements and get higher wages plus their commission to fill the openings) Depending on the size of the facility, you have RNs that really take home the bacon. Why? They are unionized and there is a super shortage of them because there are not enough nurses willing to teach nursing schools. They make too much money working.

    So, the industry tries to get the job done with low paid, non-licensed caregivers and the state has to ride herd over the industry to make sure that the patients are cared for appropriately.

    TMell must be a “pencil pusher” (currently known as a computer data input operator) doing payroll services.

    It’s so nice to have others look down on your profession.

  91. oops…forgot to close the ital…..LOL

  92. “My children don’t consider the things that bring them pleasure waste. I have a Harley, a boat, a nice truck and a nice home. I don’t consider these things waste either. They bring me pleasure, and good times with my family.”

    Since we so favor The Bible – what was it about a camel going through the eye of a needle…..oh yeah Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    Then there is “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven

    Well….heaven can just wait for certain important people, huh?

  93. “TMell says:
    March 20, 2011 at 10:04 am
    The judge’s ruling is a judge from Dane County. No problem, it will be tested, and it will pass or fail that test. Additionally, it will be determined by their court systems if the law was passed legally, and if the judge in Dane County has any authority to make their ruling.”

    Let’s see…..didn’t Dino Rossi use a County court to try to decide the fate of a Governor’s race?????

    What’s good for one State is good for another.

  94. TMell, habve you ever considered basing your comments on facts instead of personal stories. You and Ronald reagan have a lot in common. Hos anecdotes about welfare queens are still being quoted by the ill-informed Republicans. Several studies have shown that Washington’s tax structure puts a bigger tax burden on the poor than any other state in the nation. If you think those facts are “class warfare”, well, yes, we have a class warfare against the poor. People may be “born equal”, but they certainly don’t get equal opportunities, education, have equal intelligence or physical beauty, etc. One study found that the poorest 20 percent of Washingtonians pay 17.5 percent of their income in taxes each year, while the top 1 percent pay just 3.3 percent.

    Those numbers are similar to a Legislative Study Committee,which found that households making less than $20,000, a slightly larger group than the previous study, pay an average of 15.7 percent of their incomes in taxes.

    With Republicans having a cult following of the far right that never questions their deswtructive economic policies, we do have wealth redistribution in this state and in America, its called taking from the poor to give to the rich. And that is a fact.

  95. tuddo – TMell has to structure his comments to assure a person dig at me or someone else, thus getting in the way of fact finding.

  96. And I’m still trying to figure out how a Harley Davidson is “fun for the family”

    Harleys have replaced sports cars as the “big boys toys” to demonstrate phallic dominance.

    Why do I have the feeling that TMell is one of those boaters that doesn’t honor the “no wake” areas? My years sailing tells me certain things have consistancy.

  97. Mr. Starbirds observation of the events he comments on are so accurate im my opinion is scary.

  98. tuddo, have you ever based your comments on good old fashioned common sense and clear thinkiing rather than your liberal rag sheets and very far left blogs ???

    By the way If President Ronald Reagan could come back for the 2012 election he would retire President Obama back to his old job of Community Organizor, a job he actually was more qualified for than the President Of the United States.

    xzero, stop your whining about being picked on, good grief, man up already !!

  99. I’ve had Harleys for years. My children and I enjoy one on one time on them. Its a rare opportunity to spend personal time with one child when you have 4. Riding on the back of a motorcycle is a lot of fun for my kids.

    I observe no-wake zones, I am a very courteous and conscientious boater. Dude, if you sail, I am one of the powerboats that gives you a wide swath and yields to you if you are under sail…..I observe boating laws regarding who is to yield should you be under power.

    X-I am sure that plenty of people need a bike for that reason. I have ridden since I was a child, and riding makes me closer to God, Nature, and my surroundings. For a few minutes, I get to forget about everything except the next turn in the road. It’s therapeutic and something I love. As the slogan goes “If I have to explain it to you you wouldn’t understand”. Regarding the court case-If you read my comment you would have realized I welcome the legal challenge. No prob-let’s see whether their State’s Supreme Court feels the law was legally voted on and instituted or not. That should solve your whole “special session” nonsense.

  100. mrenchirito says:

    So judge Maryann Sumi, a liberal judge, ordered a temporary block of the bill. No surprise there, let’s wait for the entire case to play out in front of a REAL judge before you claim victory.

  101. “sincere says:
    March 20, 2011 at 10:41 am
    Mr. Starbirds observation of the events he comments on are so accurate im my opinion is scary.”

  102. Now there is a sales campaign….

    Closer to God on a Harley. LOL

    “A liberal judge”. LMAO. Well now, we need to find a CONservative judge, just like in Chelan County.

    Some judges, unlike those hand picked for the Supreme Court by the GOP, just adjudicate the case based on law, not……oh….I get to say it first…..

    ACTIVISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  103. TMell – pay attention to MR. She has a complete library of everything I’ve said in the last five years online.

    Stalker? Naaaaaaaaaaaaawwwww…….. LMAO

  104. “special session” nonsense”

    Well put, TMell. Since research demonstrated that the ‘special session’ had nothing to do with the issue of collective bargaining, but some wetlands issue, I, too, welcome the court case.

    When the court adjudicates, as opposed to pontificates, the Conservatives will howl for years to come:

    WENATCHEE — Judge John Bridges yesterday upheld the election of Gov. Christine Gregoire, thoroughly rejecting Republican claims of wrongdoing and leading Dino Rossi to forgo what the judge thought was an inevitable appeal to the state Supreme Court.

  105. MR is like the old woman that calls the police to complain about an obscene phone call:

    “he went on for 20 or 30 minutes saying nasty, nasty things”

    As usual, Son….er uh MR takes things to their logical ridiculousness…..

    “many men find Harleys phallic, therefore women who ride Harleys do as well”

    Here’s a clue, MR……

    There is a woman who blogs that is an idiot. But all women bloggers are not idiots.

    No charge.

  106. MR was once “OIdLefty”. A clone of my original name “OldLefty”

    The trick? OIDLEFTY versus my original OLDLEFTY.

    Nope, Cedarbackwards didn’t clone my name.

    Did you know you can’t publish “cedar” backwards on the TNT forum? Try it and see what happens.

    Obsessed? Reads a blog I moderate on a daily basis…..but not obsessed.

  107. mrenchirito says:

    I don’t know of any men who find Harley’s phallic) or Corvettes, or guns, or anything else you have associated with that). That’s your sick twisted mind at work again. The sad part is you assume everyone else thinks as you do!

  108. Oldies but goodies.

    Tried and true.

  109. “mrenchirito says:
    March 20, 2011 at 12:22 pm
    I don’t know of any men…..

    Isn’t this fun?

  110. “That blog is so hateful I go there everyday”

  111. This is fun, but it’s time to finish the window.

  112. Walker ran on balancing the budget.
    And his fist step in that direction was $140 Million tax give away to special interest groups.
    Which he proposed to cover by outlawing collective bargaining for SOME state worker unions, cutting their pay, and increasing their withholdings for health and retirement.

    And when the unions agreed the pay cuts, the Governor rejected them and forced though the outlawing of collective barging.

    Seems to me this is a case of collective bargaining worked. Except it was never about honoring Wisconsons long
    Still waiting for proof the ‘25% pay raise in 2 years’. Which I doubt you will because it did not happen.

  113. Let’s try it again:
    Walker ran on balancing the budget.

    His fist step in that direction was $140 Million tax give away to special interest groups.

    Which he proposed to cover by outlawing collective bargaining for SOME state worker unions, cutting their pay, and increasing their withholdings for health and retirement.

    And when the unions agreed the pay cuts, the Governor rejected them and forced though the outlawing of collective barging.

    Seems to me this is a case of collective bargaining worked. Except it was never about honoring the states long standing commitment to collective bargaining.

    Some of the other things Walker’s law does are;

    Reorganize state government has direct sole control over state agencies.

    Allows Department Heads to sell state property without bids.

    The more one looks the more it appears Walker had no desire to balance the budget.

    Still waiting for proof the ‘25% pay raise in 2 years’.
    Which I doubt you will because it did not happen.

  114. Parkland says:

    Excellent letter Edward.

  115. Roncella, obviously you belong to the cult of the “Know-Nothings” that I was talking about. It is plainly evident and factually supported that Reaganomics has been the most serious threat to the middle class, to our democratic institutions and thus to America, that we have faced since the Cold War ended. That is why Republicans have never had an economic policy that they implement to try to fix our economy. They love things just as they are. The poor taxed to death, the rich living in unprecedented wealth and luxury and a middle class that is shrinking by the minute with little or no political power remaining.

  116. xring – you’ve got your very own stalker!!!

    I don’t know about you, but I’m too busy with life to take the time to archive everything (selectively. mind you) that anyone says.

    It must be the “x”…….:)

  117. mrenchirito says:
    March 20, 2011 at 12:26 pm
    What happened to the old window, you looked at it too long?

    mrenchirito says:
    March 20, 2011 at 12:25 pm
    THAT was hilarious!!!!! Almost as good as something a 4th grader would think up!

  118. For those who need to know, the cheapass contractor that built my house in 1994 got away with all sorts of sub-standard work, so I’m fixing it.

    “Old window”? How about a new one where one never was put in?

    grown up people that don’t live in mom’s basement know about this stuff.

  119. Roncella – “man up”? That’s what Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann and Sharron Angle say?

    Two losers and a looney.

  120. “craftysnail X’ssandisuesumnerklause”

    Now THERE is paranoia

    I’ll bite on ‘snail” and “X”….but the rest is someone’s vivid imagination working overtime.

    It’s amazing why they are so obsessed with these things…..

  121. Sincere says the letter writer is so accurate that in [sincere’s] opinion is scary.
    Now that scares the bejabbers out of me.

    Tudor, facts and reality are to Rochelle what water was to a certain green skinned witch.

    X60 – Tmell and his Harley – you nailed it – an attempt to recapture ones youth.

    A stalker with way too much time on its hands.

  122. xring – do they have a computer in the bathroom???????

    All humans need a momentary relief now and then…..

  123. Parkland says:

    tuddo: “They love things just as they are. The poor taxed to death, the rich living in unprecedented wealth and luxury and a middle class that is shrinking by the minute with little or no political power remaining.”

    Yeah, you just can’t make this up. I know you don’t really believe what you wrote, nobody could write that with a straight face.

    Oh, and those dems are the real deal, eh? The champions for the common guy. That’s why they passed a stimulus that benefited a bunch of Wall Street mega banks, and a health care bill that benefited a bunch of mega insurance companies.

    Here’s news for ya, when the day arrives that the progressives get their socialist workers paradise, there won’t be labor unions, and shilling for them now doesn’t mean that there will be a place for you outside of the tractor factory.

  124. klthompson says:

    As I read the give and take among two or three contributors I am reminded of a comment attributed to Winston Churchill when asked why he would not debate a certain individual. It went like this, “…you cannot win a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent”.

  125. Parkland, what is your answer to the fact that not since the 1890’s has so much wealth been in the hands of so few in America, and that was the reason for riots, labor wars and almost the complete collapse of the middle class back then. Luckilly we still had expansionism and empire building back then, or it would have been a revolution. Today, with 50% of the wealth in the top 1% and 80% in the top 20%, we face dire threats to the middle class. The poor pay 18% of their income in taxes, the rich pay 3%, and the percentage of poverty-level families rise and rise. Republicans answer is to destroy the remainder of the middle class earners, give more breaks to the rich, and attack those who have decent, but not exhorbitant incomes and health care as greedy. They won’t be satisfied until 90% of the wealth is in the hands of the top 20%, just like the 1890’s when Carnegie warned Congress that the nation was about to collapse into anarchy because of the hording of wealth by the top 1%, the beneficiaries of government. Congress put into place a progressive income tax, high taxes on inherited wealth, and the middle calss and the country boomed again.

    There has been no jobs policy or focus on the middle class by the Republican-held House, while social issues like abortion and poor-bashing rule the discussions. Where are the jobs, Mr Boehner?

  126. X60 – ‘everybody needs breaks’ except Obama;

    look whose talking; and

    Its just me and my mini,
    blogging along,
    side by side.

    We both better watch the blank verse, less the trolls around here start accusing us of being the same person.

    TTFN, got to mow some more.

  127. Parkland says:

    There will always be people who are smart and have a ton of drive. They will become well to do. There will also always be people who aren’t as smart and lack drive. Most of these people accept natures inequities as a fact of life, but then there are those who think that they deserve a slice of other peoples’ pie. Ironically, the Wisconsin protesters were, for the most part, people with more means than the folks who pay their salaries.

    Tuddo, your comment about Republicans wishing away the middle class is simply liberal 1.01 blathering.

  128. Parkland says:

    One other thing, it’s not the federal governments job to create jobs, and every time they try, they fail miserably.

  129. “What are your thoughts of abolishing the Earned Income Credit. This would solve massive problems in our federal system?”

    As long as there are people out there doing yeoman’s work @ $10.70 per hour, or less, I have no problem pitching in with a little help at tax time, TMell.

    The little that they get compared to the abundance many of us have after taxes is peanuts, yet it seems to bother you to the point that you’d consider taking what they get to help balance the budget.

    There’s plenty of serious money out there that wouldn’t be missed that could be put to that better use.

  130. … took less than 5 minutes.

  131. Parkland, your naivete is astounding. The myth that hard work, intelligence and drive is what makes success has been proved false over and over. Hard work, plus a rich family, plus good looks and white skin and lots of luck is more important than being smart and having drive. I know that I was lucky. I would have stayed in poverty like my family before me and theirs before them if I had not been selected for a Federal grant project that provided tutors, food and housing. I was able to go to a college that charged no tuition (Rice University in Houston) because of the generosity of one of those 1% ers I was talking about. Plus, I didn’t even ahve to deal with racism or being a woman. Those issues are still more impactfulo than drive and hard work, too. Go ahead and believe the myth, just don’t make policy based on your Pollyanna fantasies.

  132. “Parkland says:
    March 20, 2011 at 4:22 pm
    One other thing, it’s not the federal governments job to create jobs, and every time they try, they fail miserably.
    —————————————————————————————————–

    Federal Government failures – Peace Corps, CCC, NASA. All created jobs, all made the country better and stronger.

    Parkland, let me guess…..the glass is half empty, right?

  133. You know what is really interesting is how a couple of weeks back, mrenchirito was talking about her award winning blog with the 500 pageviews daily…… and today denies sandiKLauz’s assertion that she publishes a blog.

    When I get a little spare time, I’ll have to pull that comment out of the archives

  134. So is Judge Sumi a liberal because she issued the injunction, of did she issue the injunction because she is a liberal?

  135. test

  136. Correct as usual, tuddo.

    As Lefty Gomez said, “I’d rather be lucky than good.”

  137. BigSwingingRichard says:

    Mr. Starbird, I would like to recommend you consider reading the book by the late University of Chicago Professor Milton Friedman titled : “Free to Choose”, it was published in the eighties. The central premise of this excellent book is exactly what your letter is about, except it is applied to the entire US (and world) economy.

    He agrees with you and he applied the same concepts across entire industries and at the consumer level. I think you might find his, at the time, “radical ideas” about free markets and the resulting prosperity interesting. History proved him, and you, correct.

    PS: I agree with your letter in its entirety. Thanks for writing.

  138. Here we go again, relying on a dead economist (Freidman) to solve the current problems. Friedman was a free market guy and it is without doubt that free markets with little or no regulation got us into the worst economic downturn since the great depression.
    Friedman did originally support Keynsian policy. The Keynesian model still works.

  139. I have posted as nobody else today but this name.

    Today? That seems an interesting, and very specific, qualifier.

  140. yabetchya says:

    X_6zero says:
    March 20, 2011 at 11:51 am
    TMell – pay attention to MR. She has a complete library of everything I’ve said in the last five years online

    yabetchya says:
    not under this moniker……………..You are like the sad sorry lady who sends herself flowers, and says there from a secret love. Many monikers tend to have one agree with them selves. So sad.

  141. gerry0416 says:

    The government workers are going to see a steady decline in their pay and benefits. The politicians see the hand-writing on the wall and they want, above all else, to stay in office. As far as the Boeing workers last strike, if they try it again they will see more of their jobs being moved to South Carolina.

  142. much denial

  143. Let’s drive down the wages so that there will be less money to spend thus a lower tax base, thus lower revenues for services.

    Brilliant.

    The cost of gasoline increases on a regular basis, but we’re going to lower the revenue base to run vehicles for the government.

  144. “Common liberal pessimistic, glass-half-full convictions aside”

    Now THERE’S a good one. “pessimistic, glass half full”

    LMAO

    Quite a command of the language, don!

  145. “yabetchya says:
    March 21, 2011 at 5:58 am
    X_6zero says:
    March 20, 2011 at 11:51 am
    TMell – pay attention to MR. She has a complete library of everything I’ve said in the last five years online

    yabetchya says:
    not under this moniker……………..You are like the sad sorry lady who sends herself flowers, and says there from a secret love. Many monikers tend to have one agree with them selves. So sad.

    ———————————————————————————————-

    “yabetcha” is denying something that I said about “MR”?????????

    Interesting. Of course it was early and probably been up all night…..

  146. donjames,if you meet the qualifications of being in the top 1% based on your hard work and you did not have luck and chances that most poor people never see, then more power to you. I am talking about that being the exception and that hard work and desire is not the most impactful reasons why people get to that level. Even Bill Gates had an upper-upper, top 20% middle class background, plus he had subsidized education and government loans, all of those socialist things you hate. He was able to get a huge loan to start his business because his mother was on the board of directors of the bank after others turned his ideas down and his lawyer father gave him free legal services to help start his company. Please let me now how that does not meet what I am talking about, or was it all due to his hard work that he was given a chance? Even with great ideas and hard work, most entrepreneurs can only get help getting started in their own businesses through socialistic tax-paid assistance through the DO Commerce and other government programs.

    Hard work and desire used to get you into the middle class if you were poor and could take advantage of socialist public education and socialist day care and socialist housing subsidies,and other government programs but now that is not even a realistic goal for many because of Republican’s insistance on removing programs and opportunities that allow poor people to make the struggle worthwhile.

  147. yabetchya says:

    X_6zero says:
    March 21, 2011 at 8:34 am

    yabetcha” is denying something that I said about “MR”?????????
    Of course it was early and probably been up all night…..

    Why X’s, do you contribute when you know nothing. Is that suppose to be an insult? I truly believe the lack of oxygen at birth has resulted in the retardation of your thought process.

  148. “Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple.”

    Barry Switzer
    US football coach (1937 – )

    (Why is it that a football coach uses a baseball analogy?)

  149. Can’t wait for another letter about unions so we can start all over again.

  150. sandiKLawz says:

    looks like hate to me

  151. So true, Polago. I only hope that the letter writer can bring something new to the discussion, rather than the old tired Republican talking points.

  152. 1.5 million billionaires??????????

    If you have 150,000,000 adults X .01, you get 1.5 million

    Throw it at the wall until it sticks, don

  153. According to Forbes, there are 403 billionaires in the US, as of March 2010

    Just think of how much of the wealth in America is controlled by .0002666 of one percent of the adult population.

  154. Since the top 1% represents 1.5 million people, an additional tax of $100 per earner, per year would result in $1,500,000,000

    That could pay some bills. Of course Congress is too busy worrying about Planned Parenthood and such.

    Just think what an additional tax of $10,000 would mean and the earner would barely miss it.

  155. The relationship between labor and management should be balanced. Labor unions provide that balance. Although, both sides strive to gain the upper hand, neither side should have that power over the other.

    Walker used his power to gain the upper hand.

    “All power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

    John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton

  156. Sorry Polago, but all your comments are foolish and wrong. The Governor of wis. did exactly what he promised he would do, balance the overblown democratic mess he inherited, and work to bring a business to turn wis. into a business friendly state once again, inturn this would help create thousands of new jobs.

    Your comments along with Xzero’s are nothing but alot of hot air.

  157. I always love how Roncella backs up hyperbolic statements with factual sources.

    BUT….I’ll have to give Roncella a pass because Walker has scrubbed his “Scott Walker for Governor” website and turned it into a propaganda site.

    Having looked at his original site, when this all started and having posted material from the original site on the TNT forums, I can testify that Walker didn’t say eliminating collective bargaining was one of his cost saving methods.

    PolitifactWI says:

    “Let’s sum up our research.

    Walker contends he clearly “campaigned on” his union bargaining plan.

    But Walker, who offered many specific proposals during the campaign, did not go public with even the bare-bones of his multi-faceted plans to sharply curb collective bargaining rights. He could not point to any statements where he did. We could find none either.

    While Walker often talked about employees paying more for pensions and health care, in his budget-repair bill he connected it to collective bargaining changes that were far different from his campaign rhetoric in terms of how far his plan goes and the way it would be accomplished.

    We rate his statement False.

  158. Interesting that the former owner of “hotair.com” is Michelle Malkin

  159. mrenchirito says:

    “Since the top 1% represents 1.5 million people”.. blah, blah, blah”

    Those top 1% also give way more to charitable organizations, like the Boys and Girls Clubs (BTW interesting article about them down south today). That helps a lot more than Government does.

  160. Walker’s bait and switch campaign tactics remind me of the Moral Majority tactic of telling its candidates to hide of down play their Christianity and ties to the Moral Majority organization.

  161. Fibonacci says:

    If Walker is so upfront and faifr, why were the firemen and police exempted from his castratoin of the unions?

  162. Roncella says:
    March 21, 2011 at 10:27 am

    “Sorry Polago, but all your comments are foolish and wrong.”

    Thanks, Roncella. You’re my hero.

  163. “blah blah blah” is a familiar phrase used by CONservatives to replace their inability to articulate:

    “You know, the other night in a debate I said his eloquence is admirable but pay attention to his words,” McCain said. “We talked about offshore drilling and he said he would, quote, ‘consider’ offshore drilling. We talked about nuclear power. Well, it has to be safe, environment, blah blah blah.”

    The crowd seemed to enjoy McCain’s flippancy, bursting into cheers before he could continue.

    McCain suggested nuclear power is a safe energy resource because “we’ve been sailing Navy ships around the world for 50 years with nuclear power plants on them.”

    “I have news for Senator Obama, nuclear power is safe, we ought to do it now,” McCain said.

    Take a trip to Northern Japan, Senator McCain and check out the blah blah blah

  164. The Boys and Girls Clubs depend on government grants. Don’t talk about things that demonstrate your ignorance.

  165. SadujTogracse says:

    “BGCA is tax-exempt and partially funded by the federal government”

    Meaning the other part is privately funded. Yes, ignorance abounds.

  166. Since donations to charities are 100% tax deductable, there is no reason for the top 1% to avoid donating.

  167. Keep talking MR. You’re making me look really smart and I’m just working with the basics of philanthropic giving. We can get into the real detailed stuff if you’d like

  168. SadujTogracse says:

    Who was that other guy that supports nuclear power??? Oh yeah, Obama! LOL!

  169. According to “give.org” (the BBB’s review of charities)

    Boys and Girls Clubs of America:

    Contributions 50,301,775
    Membership dues 8,504,988
    Fundraising events, net 5,923,212
    Government grants and contracts, net 4,977,009
    Other 1,374,479
    Income from funds held in trust by others 1,159,397
    Investment income, net 933,094
    Realized and unrealized gains on investments, net -69,696,757
    Total Income $3,477,197

    Noting that investments tanked during this reporting, their net income was $3.5 million – some $1.5 million less than government grants

    Are government grants important? YOUBETCHA!!!

    The $50 million donated by corporations, trusts and individuals comes off the top of the income of the donors, thus lowers their tax base.

  170. According to McCain’s quote about Obama:

    “We talked about nuclear power. Well, it has to be safe, environment, blah blah blah.”

    Apparently McCain is not concerned about the safety of citizens.

  171. So JE…X_6, are you going to pull that energy to live on out of your a–. You tree huggers don’t want to use any fossil fuels or nuclear, or hydro to power your homes, or America. So what do you propose, wind? HAHAHAHA

    You must be from the religion of peace, because they want us back to the stone age where we had daylight and animal skins and that was it.

    And how did we get to nuclear power and McCain anyway? I know the resident slow moving boat fisherman (trolling if you will).

  172. X_6

    I take it back. I am seeing a kindler gentler you lately.

    No, I don’t want unsafe nuclear power. However, the nuclear power we have in the states is based on 30 or more year old technology, since we haven’t been allowed to build new plants (even though the rest of the world has built new plants).

    The technology today is vastly improved. The US was working on a long term storage plan for the waste until Reid and Obama nixed it (the old NIMBY thing). How does the rest of the world handle their spent nuclear waste?

    We need to do something if the plan is to move to electric cars. The car batteries have to get electricity from somewhere.

    Since everyone claims fly-over country is useless, maybe we could build reactors there and and supply the nation with electric power. Supplement that with wind and solar and a storage system, and maybe we can start using less oil for energy/transportation needs.

    Maybe it is just Jack talking…..

    ;-)

  173. Okay, my RSS feed is not giving me the latest info. I responded to X_6, but now I don’t see the original.
    But any who,

    Oops! Just read some of the other threads, and I take back the kindler gentler you comment above. My bad…..

  174. Polago, nothing personal in my opinion about your comments.

  175. “How does the rest of world handle their spent nuclear waste?” In Japan and the USA they store the spent rods on-site in ‘spent rods pools’ which in Japan set directly over the reactor cores.

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