Letters to the Editor

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SPEECH: It’s not hateful to defend morality

Letter by Vince A. Wagner, University Place on March 7, 2011 at 2:26 pm with 47 Comments »
March 7, 2011 2:34 pm

The actions and message of the Westboro protesters is certainly un-Christlike, misguided and venomous. Yet the magnitude in which immorality now trumps morality and common sense in this country forces us to ask ourselves how detached as a nation we are from rational thinking.

For example: The president’s recent declaration of war against natural marriage and the open celebration of homosexuality in the U.S. Armed Forces for the first time in our nation’s history. As unkind and toxic the actions by the Westboro protesters are, in turn many understand that morality is under attack in this nation by those who promote a devalued and perverted view of sexual conduct and marriage.

No sincere Christian advocates violence or hatred directed at homosexuals, nor in turn advocates for sexual behavior that the Bible clearly condemns. It is not “hateful” to defend morality or God’s purpose for marriage.

It is not “hateful” to give the general public a powerful, intuitive understanding of the truth and consequences of homosexuality and to debunk the lie that there are people who’s natural state is “homosexual.”

With Christlike, biblically based love, it’s all about how the message is delivered, spoken and lived. Although not a minute of attention should be given to the Westboro protesters, many in this nation understand that marriage, family, religious liberty, our constitutional rights and our nation’s moral standard are too important to remain silent or ignore the most radical of all anti-moral, anti-Christian movements.

Leave a comment Comments → 47
  1. Can someone tell where in the New Testament did Jesus speak against homosexuals?

  2. You are such an expert Vince. I guess we should all come to you for advice about how to live our lives. You can define perversion for us all and I am sure it will be an absolute.
    You can define homosexuality for us too and tell us all how it happens. I can hardly wait.
    And quoting the Bible as the unambiguous source of everything that is right and proper takes the real prize.
    Amazing!

  3. JudasEscargot says:

    Vince:

    My God is big enough to not hate homosexuals. My God created them. It’s one of those tests – sort of like the Job story.

    You failed.

  4. hortonpeak says:

    Vince, you have the same message but simply wrap it in la-la language. I prefer my bigots up front and ugly. Cheers.

  5. the3rdpigshouse says:

    Vince – the socialist democrats led by the lead anti-American marxist/socialist “OH-Bummer” have an agenda to destroy our great nation and turn it into a degenerate socialist cesspool and must be removed from all levels of government – the problem is we have a large number of ignorant electorate that continue to reward the anti-American socialist democrats by continuing to elect & reelect them! Hopefully the electorate will do its homework in 2012!!

  6. Rollo_Tomassi says:

    3rdpigshouse –

    That has to be the most ignorant post I’ve ever read. Do you really believe that people who disagree with you have the express purpose of destroying this nation? Really? Do you also believe there are monsters under your bed?

    Try to imagine this: There are people who love this country who happen to disagree with whatever you believe. They may be wrong, but that doesn’t make them evil, or enemies, nor is it evidence that they are trying to destroy the nation. In fact the people who are most likely to destroy this nation are those who are so sure they are right that they stop listening to anyone else (see mirror).

    And while I am at it. Can you try to post something that doesn’t have the repetitive tripe “socialist democrats”, “marxist/socialist” and “OH-Bummer” in it? We get it, you don’t like the guy. Try to think of something new to post.

  7. JudasEscargot says:

    Rollo – see Michele Bachmann’s appearance on “Meet the Press” for a similar delivery.

  8. War against natural marriage??!?!??

    Though I’m not sure that there is anything “natural” about marriage (men are not “naturally” monogamous) – I feel absolutely no threat to my marriage by same sex marriages being legal.

    So….you are distancing yourself from the Westboro Church but you are agreeing with their stance…..nothing quite like the smell of a hypocritical Xian.

  9. bobcat1a says:

    In case Vince has forgotten, all of us in this country are not christian, and our laws are not to be based on some theocratic philosophy. We don’t need no Ayatollah! Don’t expect the rest of us to either think as you do or do as you think.

  10. the3rdpigshouse says:

    The anti-American leftists that infest this site aptly demonstrate that a mind is a terrible thing to waste!!

  11. hortonpeak says:

    Whatever.

  12. olbluedoc says:

    Hey pig, we get it. Your mind is full of hate and we’re all “immoral” according to people like you and Vince. This is why people like Scott Walker come up with new laws “for the people.” To take away collective bargaining, the Republicans are not taking away our voice, just their obligation to listen. Same goes for same sex relationships. Just point to your bible and call them immoral, or better yet, just make up your laws to make them illegal. Trouble is, those people are here to stay,and no amount of hate or name calling will ever change that. Or them.

  13. This may be the worst letter ever submitted and it certainly is the worst I’ve ever read. If there was a letter the TNT should not print this would be it.

  14. surething says:

    A contender for ‘Worst Letter of the Year’, and it’s only March.

    Take a bow, Vince.

  15. God’s purpose for marriage

    Funny…..the only thing I remember attributed to Jesus about marriage was the whole bit about what God joined let no man rend asunder. And yet…..all this outrage about gay marriage coming from churches led by divorcees.

  16. frankiethomas says:

    Vince carries a kinder and gentler sign but his message is the same. . . Love is not immoral Vince, and you are not the one preaching it. POOF – be gone. You have no powers here.

  17. Curmudgeon1 says:

    It’s difficult to know where to begin in response to the utter nonsense of this despicable letter. Suffice to say it is yet another example in a long litany of same that show the damage and hatred fostered by religion. I guess it will take several more generations before certain attitudes finally crumble of their own weight. Until then such people as Vince and the3rdpigshouse will inflict themselves on civil society.

  18. ft – “POOF – be gone.”

    Smile.

  19. vingrotto says:

    When heteros start treating marriage with respect, maybe I will start listening to this blather. But I am rather confident that this will never happen. Leave marriage to the church, and let the rest enjoy a union of respect and love through civil ceremonies.

  20. beerBoy says:
    March 8, 2011 at 5:23 am
    God’s purpose for marriage

    Funny…..the only thing I remember attributed to Jesus about marriage…

    .
    He said “God”…

  21. Marauding Gay Hordes Drag Thousands Of Helpless Citizens From Marriages After Obama Drops Defense Of Marriage Act

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/marauding-gay-hordes-drag-thousands-of-helpless-ci,19325/

  22. #pig, let’s count the number of right wing websites that have been rapidly revised?

    We can start with Sharron Angle of Nevada.

  23. Well Vincent, you are living in an age of political correctness which is just another way of saying “be polite even if it means lying about your feelings and beliefs.” Did you know the Victorian era was rooted not in piety but in the call for politeness — the byword being “never offend anyone.”

    Therefore, if you happen to take any position wherein you disagree with the current trends, you will be called a hater. It doesn’t matter how you word it or how kind you are with regard to your conduct.

    Don’t you see. You MUST go along with it or be …well, treated as you have been treated on this thread.

  24. MarksonofDarwin says:

    Sozo,

    He’s being treated this way because he is using the Westboro mouth breathers as an example of “defending morality”.

    I know he starts by condemning them for “violence” (which they haven’t done) but then on the other side of his mouth applauds them for their message.

    My only question to Vince would be:
    If homosexuals simply choose their “lifestyle” and are not born that way, then when did you decide to become heterosexual?

  25. what you don’t understand the whole Christian thing with the tripartite god? Or are you, like Muslims and Jews, saying that Jesus wasn’t God?

  26. what? no comment about ______house’s “off topic” , “personal attack” , “slanderous” comments ???

  27. MoD, many Christians are troubled by the question of whether a person is born gay or straight. IMO some are hard-wired to be attracted to the same sex.

    But you can’t ignore all of the sexual experimentation that has nothing to do with how a person is born. Further, the Bible does not condemn homosexual people, but it is specific about not lying with a person of the same sex.

    We come hardwired with a lot of “desires” that I don’t think are of God. They are anomalies of nature, perhaps.? Half the people in my family seem to have come hard-wired alcoholics, others hardwired for obesity. Does this mean we just say “Oh well…give that man another drink?”

    The First Lady certainly thinks we should be “re-educating fat kids.”

    A gay person may say “God never makes mistakes” but then you have to ask if God designs the child to be crippled or mentally ill as well.

    Of course none of this matters a whit if you do not believe in either God or Allah. Those who do not believe in God can simply write their own personal moral ticket, cant they?

  28. I think it is fascinating how 3PH purports to love America, but still seems to venemously hate to their core the majority of Americans. The ability of the human brain to compartmentalize is truly a thing of wonder.

    Oh, and I agree completely with vingrotto.

  29. A befuddled xring chooses to ignore – “Can someone tell where in the New Testament did Jesus speak against homosexuals?”

    Jesus does not, as you sidestep, speak against the person, but rather the choice of action.
    Poor attempt on your part for a grammatical bait-and-switch.

    But since you are apparently reference challenged, try, just try these for starters:

    Matthew 19: 4-6
    Romans 1: 24-32
    I Corinthians 6: 9-11
    Now close your eyes, run fast, and blame the wall for running into you…

  30. Oh, Lars, my reading impaired friend. My question was specifically ‘What did Jesus say?”.

    Matthew 19 4-6, says that WHEN a man marries a woman, he moves out of his mother’s house but contains no reference to homosexuals.

    Romans and Corinthians were written by Paul, and the passages you cite no not mention Jesus. In fact most of Paul’s writing (IMO) comes across as if he is channeling God the Father, and not Jesus the Son.

  31. Paul’s writing (IMO) comes across as if he is channeling God the Father, and not Jesus the Son.

    Mighty big “as if”.

  32. larsman quoting the Bible. That takes the cake. And it is so not applicable to ANY reasoned argument.
    It’s a story book, lars, made up in big people’s clothes.

  33. BeerBoy, the beauty of Protestant Theology, everybody is suppose to read the Bible to find their own personal relationship with God.

  34. dodge9907 says:

    does vince also support the priest’s abuse of children? “No sincere Christian advocates violence or hatred directed at homosexuals, nor in turn advocates for sexual behavior that the Bible clearly condemns.” what if the word “homosexuals ” was replaced with children, would that be ok? I say you need to clean up your own house before trying to clean up yor neighbors. also I thiught the constitutional rights were for ALL americans, not just the ones that think like you ( and I hope its a small group that thinks like you )

  35. the3rdpigshouse says:

    Rollo – I do agree however, that a home-grown anti-American marxist/socialist has no business in the White House or any other position of responsibility affecting the well-being of our nation!!

  36. MarksonofDarwin says:

    Sozo,

    Fwiw, I do believe in God. A loving God. And I’m certain that you believe God is loving as well. That said, I will confess that I am certainly no bible scholar. I have no doubt that even our cantankerous, but consistent friend 3ph knows more biblical references than I do. I hope you will forgive me if I don’t cite any passages and simply speak from the heart.

    Jesus taught us to love one another. That was his most prominent lesson. I believe he spoke so much of it because it is the hardest thing for us to do….and also the most important thing for us to learn.

    I do know that the bible instructs us to “judge not”, but it also teaches of discernment. That is an important distinction, and I think that’s what we are ultimately talking about.

    The heterosexual AND the homosexual people I have known who were promiscuous were simply people I chose not to get close to.

    I still ache for the friendship I chose to end with a friend who started cheating on her husband. I am also blessed to know a beautiful lesbian couple who share the same values that my husband and I share in our marriage.

    So, yes…you are right when you say that a promiscuous “anything goes” lifestyle is a character defect…but it really has nothing to do with homosexuality.

  37. Rollo_Tomassi says:

    3rdpig,

    “I do agree however, that a home-grown anti-American marxist/socialist has no business in the White House or any other position of responsibility affecting the well-being of our nation!!”

    Then you must really hate democracy, because that is how the president gained the office. Rail all you want about “the ignorant electorate”, but it is democracy in action and your complaints that the president does not belong in office reveals your desire to replace the will of the people with your own judgement.

  38. theogsters says:

    We are so fortunate to live in these times and have the counsel of omniscient Vince Wagner. My dream is to visit his mountaintop refuge (aka University Place), sit at his feet and drink in the wisdom of the ages.

  39. beerBoy says:
    March 8, 2011 at 5:23 am
    Funny…..the only thing I remember attributed to Jesus about marriage…
    .
    beerBoy says:
    March 8, 2011 at 12:27 pm
    what you don’t understand the whole Christian thing with the tripartite god?
    …………
    So now you’re a believer? Following your lead, anything God says can be accredited to Jesus.

  40. WhatIdo – nonbelievers (like me) oftentimes came to their state of disbelief after many, many years of research into the subject. I wager I have read (and own) many more books on theology than most believers.

  41. MoD…loving someone does not always mean affirming their actions. In fact, as a mother, I found the difficult moments of loving my kids came when I could not condone an attitude or an action and had to bite down hard and tell them so.

    Love is not a passive, gooey feeling. It takes guts. It’s hard. It’s a verb as well as a noun.

    Many a spouse of an alcoholic thought they were loving their significant other by not confronting or challenging their drinking. In fact they were what we call enablers.

    Our society today encourages us to be enablers…to very specific behaviors such as homosexual conduct. In a strangely arbitrary way, we are told to affirm this, but to harshly judge smokers and big eaters. Of course you will say that homosexual acts don’t harm anyone (as nicotine and fat do) but for Christians, there is enough evidence in scripture to suggest that it IS in fact harmful–that they simply must attend to it lest they make a mockery of the authority of scripture altogether.

  42. MarksonofDarwin says:

    Sozo,

    As you have probably guessed by now, I am not deeply religious. I know that the bible specifically warns against homosexuality. The fact that I am hetero makes it very easy for me to follow that part of the bible. It’s easy for someone who is hetero to say it’s forbidden, therefore nobody should be gay, or act on their natural instincts. It’s also cruel and harshly judgmental.

    It is not my place to send any person to Hell. I spend enough time working out my own issues and defects that I find it a relief that God has told us that we don’t even have the authority to worry about what others might be doing. I personally don’t believe that God will judge homosexuals harshly though….I’m sure we will disagree on that, and neither will be convinced otherwise.

    As to smokers and the obese….I agree that it’s bizarre that our culture has turned these bad habits into a moral crusade. There’s an ugly tinge of misanthropy and cruelty to it as well. We do agree on that!

  43. Bb begging for “Wow’s” sez – “I wager I have read (and own) many more books on theology than most believers.” (All bow down, eyes roll).

    Now we finally have an admission.
    Owning does not equate to reading.
    Reading does not equate to understanding.

    One of your books of man’s opinions may say 1 foot=11 inches, while another claims 10 inches is correct. You claim to be an indecisive ( open minded?) atheist so how can you claim any objectivity seeing that your ability to utilize a standard of stability is as changeable as the wind direction? As to your statement above, perhaps you’,ve actually read the proverb:
    “Pride goeth before a fall, and a haughty (snobbish) spirit before destruction”.

  44. … and according to you anything God says can be attributed to Jesus… because they are one and the same.

  45. Sophistry, larsman, as an ad hominem put-down!

  46. crappyemailname says:

    I wish that all these so called morally upstanding, “people of god” would get even half as upset about the child abuse and molestation of innocent children by priests as they do about what a couple of consenting adults decide to do behind closed doors.

    It’s ironic how religious people say their priority is to spread good will and most importantly love and here you have a group of individuals who decide to share their love with each other, but because they happen to be the same gender, all that love talk goes right out the window and now it’s time to demonize and villify those you don’t agree with or understand.

    Meanwhile child abuse, molestations and rapes have been and continue to be conducted by a large number of priest, so called “holy men”, all over the world and yet they are offered forgiveness and extended a helping hand. The worst they can expect is to be moved to a new community, where they can ultimately prey upon an unknowing, unsuspecting social group.

    It’s interesting how people prioritize their morality.

  47. nvanputten says:

    Just going to throw this one out there. How is stoning homosexuals (as it says in the Bible) peace-loving and Christlike? And since this clearly doesn’t make sense, then why do we still condemn them?

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