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UNION: GOP would take us back to the bad old days

Letter by Bambi Lin Litchman, Tacoma on March 4, 2011 at 1:03 pm with 131 Comments »
March 4, 2011 1:38 pm

More power to the Wisconsin workers attempting to retain their collective bargaining rights. They had already agreed to major concessions with Gov. Scott Walker before he went ballistic.

I am reminded of little Oliver Twist, holding up his gruel bowl, and politely requesting, “Please, sir, may I have some more?”

Walker, clearly in the back pocket of the Koch brothers (each worth $17.5 billion), would seem at home in Dickensian industrial England. The industrial era had ultra-rich robber barons, a staggering poverty level and a preponderance of sweat shops with no minimum wage, no workman’s compensation, no unemployment compensation, no eight-hour day and no Social Security for the elderly. It had a propensity for a mean-spirited, Darwinian worldview of “survival of the fittest.”

The recent prank telephone conversation with Walker revealed a plan with the Kochs to break the unions across the country. Ohio and Indiana Republican governors are attempting to follow suit.

Breaking the unions would provide the second punch to Citizens vs. United of 2010, wherein our Supreme Court gave license to endless, anonymous political contributions by corporations. The main defense by Democrats is the ability by unions to raise funds and to mobilize force by and for American working-class citizens in elections.

The Kochs, known to be among the top 10 worst industrial polluters in the U.S., gave Walker $43,000 last year and funded massive ad attacks against his opponent.

This concerted effort to break the unions threatens our national values and democracy itself.

Leave a comment Comments → 131
  1. CrazyJim says:

    Koch had big plans for Walker. I just wonder if he’s going to make it through his first term.

    I wouldn’t want to be Walker or Gadhafi in the upcoming weeks. Although it is rumored both have job offers from the RNC and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

  2. CrazyJim says:

    David Koch, Governor Walker and a teacher are sitting at a table with a plate having a dozen cookies on it. Koch reaches over and grabs 11 cookies, turns to Walker and tells him to watch the teacher because he is union and might want part of his cookie.

  3. I can only wish Gov. Walker my best wishes and hope he doesn’t cave in to the commies. The people of Wisconsin put him in office to clean up the mess created by demokrats. Good luck Governor. You can hold your head up and be proud!

  4. Fibonacci says:

    frosty
    So, I take it you like the idea the letter writer mentions about robber barons. How about that company store? Are there no prisons, are there no workhouses. Hey, if these lazy worker don’t like it they can quit right? There must be somone out there willing to work as a teacher, firefighter, policeman, highway engineer, etc for minium wages.

  5. Walker ran on reducing state spending and creating jobs. There was no mention in his campaign about union busting, decreasing state corporate taxes, selling state assets (with or without bids), and reorganizing state government so all department heads reported directly to the governor’s office bypassing legislative and regulatory controls and review.

    Furthermore, Walker is in violation of Wisconsin State laws that requires to governor to ‘bargain in good faith’ with the state employees’ unions.

  6. Fibonacci says:

    Funny how the Republikans keep bringing up how no Republikans voted for the Health Care Bill, like that alone shows it is a bad law, but in Wisconsin they are crying foul over theDemocrats not staying in the state to vote on the public unions. They know not one Democrat will vote for it, so by their way of thinking doesn’t that make it a bad law, or is that only whenTHEY don’t like something?

  7. hansgruber says:

    First off, the legislation exempts the police & firefighters.

    Secondly, we have labor laws in effect, minimum wage, L&I Insurance, child labor laws, overtime compensation, ect…

    Thirdly, the majority of union members ARE public employees, not private so there will be no sweat shops set up, no children will be employed (Public jobs require you to be over 18 so you can be bonded).

    I wonder just how many would continue to be union members if it was not mandatory as part of keeping your job?

  8. BlaineCGarver says:

    I would DEARLY love to know what the poor union people are going to be making, and what their benefits are going to cost them. They are being called Gold Plated…let us see for ourself.

  9. alindasue says:

    hansgruber,

    It was through the efforts of unions that now we have labor laws in effect, minimum wage, L & I, child labor laws, etc… Taking away a union’s right to negotiate wages and compensation for its members is only the beginning. It’s only a matter of time before those other things disappear too.

    The majority of members of most unions are NOT public employees, unless you include employers such as Boeing, auto manufacturers, rental car companies, hospitals, grocery stores and so forth in your definition of “public”.

    In response to your last question, the mechanic and carwashers at the rental car company all voted overwhelmingly to join a union while I was there a few months ago. They didn’t have to join the union. They wanted to.

  10. Fibonacci, If your going to complain about robber barrons paying minimum wages maybe you could talk to Palosi. Her husband pays less than the minimum, he got a special break from guess who. Clean your own house before you go after others

  11. frosty,you made a great post,and you can tell it was great post by the number of attacks by the leftwing radicals!hansgruber also make some good points that make good sense.Maybe xring will go to Wisc.and swear out a warrant for Walkers arrest if he feels that the law has been broken.I like frostys take on the situation.

  12. Hey sincere- check your facts. Overwhelmingly, the majority of voters support collective barganing rights. The number of your so called “attacks” means people don’t support what he says. Get it?

  13. Commies? frosty, you have to love his sense of reality. It helps us all, as we measure his words for value, when he uses “commies” in the sentence.
    Must be that 50’s thing again.
    frosty, you never did answer the question about taking today’s education policies back to the 50’s. Do you care to expand on that for us all?

  14. Good grief! What’s with the Obama gas prices? Wow!

    Where’s all the outrage from the leftists?

  15. What makes you think lefties are outraged by high gas prices? High gas prices cause people to drive less, which is good for the environment.

  16. “whatIdo says:
    March 4, 2011 at 4:56 pm
    Good grief! What’s with the Obama gas prices? Wow!

    Where’s all the outrage from the leftists?”
    Ever hear of supply and demand” The rise in prices has nothing to do with the President in this case.

  17. “Obama gas prices.” Nice try. You get the booby prize.
    “A booby prize is a joke prize usually given in recognition of a terrible performance or last-place finish.”

  18. JudasEscargot says:

    frosty says:
    March 4, 2011 at 2:11 pm
    I can only wish Gov. Walker my best wishes and hope he doesn’t cave in to the commies.

    McCarthyism is alive and well.

    Remember when everyone in Hollywood was a “commie”? Ronald Reagan was the president of the Screen Actors Guild from 1947 to 1951 and then again from 1959 to 1960.

    We now know how Reagan overthrew the “commies”. He went undercover.

  19. JudasEscargot says:

    “whatIdo says:
    March 4, 2011 at 4:56 pm
    Good grief! What’s with the Obama gas prices? Wow!

    Where’s all the outrage from the leftists? ”

    LOOK!!!! I’ve got a bright shining object in my left hand. Don’t pay attention to what is going on in my right hand.

    Are “Obama gas prices” anything like the Bush gas prices that were over $4 per gallon?

  20. JudasEscargot says:

    Did everyone notice Huckabee’s latest distraction for the home team? To take the attention off Walker, ol’ Huck first stuck his foot in his mouth about Obama growing up in Kenya and then shoved his whole leg down his throat talking about unwed mothers – all the while forgetting about his sister GOPer Sarah Palin’s kid paraded on the 2008 campaign trail.

    The Huckster wants you to pay attention to his Charlie Sheen impersonation instead of being involved in what is happening in Wisconsin.

    One of the GOP BOSSES must have said “Huck, you haven’t got a snowball’s chance, so say something really stupid, would you?”

  21. JudasEscargot says:

    Who is “Palosi”?

  22. JudasEscargot says:

    “hansgruber says:
    March 4, 2011 at 2:48 pm
    First off, the legislation exempts the police & firefighters.

    Secondly, we have labor laws in effect, minimum wage, L&I Insurance, child labor laws, overtime compensation, ect…

    Don’t want to anger the police and firefighters until you get the others “in line”. Then it will be “how can police and firefighters be objective in the execution of public safety if they are in a union?” Or something equally as ridiculous.

    As to “Second” – those laws are in place because of organized labor and there is nothing to stop them from being eliminated once the GOP is drunk on power from breaking the public employees.

  23. firemannotfirefighter says:

    I love when misinformed people talk about Citizens United like the Unions were against it! The unions BENEFITED from the ruling! Unions put on a VERY thin show of opposition PRIOR to the ruling, but in backrooms everyone KNEW that not only would Citizens benefit business, but Unions would benefit as well!

  24. hortonpeak says:

    Gee all that stuff going on in faraway Wisconsin. Might I suggest one look up Kirby Wilbur, Hans Zeiger, Caleb Heimlich, Hillsdale College, etc. Cheers.

  25. JudasEscargot says:

    Nothing better than an anti-union firefighter. Your brothers and sisters must love risking their lives to protect you.

  26. The unions were already able to donate open ended amounts to pro-union groups, so why would they want to enable there much more wealthy adversaries to give unlimited amounts of funds to the anti-union groups? Sorry fireman, but you remarks do pass the believability test.

  27. If your going to write a letter like this, at least know what you are talking about. FYI, Indiana’s governor removed collective bargaining rights from Indiana public employees 5 years ago. They are still well compensated, the sky hasn’t fallen, but he has been able to get his state’s budget in shape. Looks like those dirtbags that skipped out of their duty are getting ready to cave :)

  28. “firemannotfirefighter says:
    March 4, 2011 at 6:05 pm
    “I love when misinformed people talk about Citizens United like the Unions were against it! The unions BENEFITED from the ruling! Unions put on a VERY thin show of opposition PRIOR to the ruling, but in backrooms everyone KNEW that not only would Citizens benefit business, but Unions would benefit as well!”

    Sorry fireman, that is not quite accurate.
    http://workinprogress.firedoglake.com/2010/01/25/is-citizens-united-decision-bad-for-unions/

  29. JudasEscargot says:

    “They are still well compensated, the sky hasn’t fallen, but he has been able to get his state’s budget in shape”

    Let’s examine this comment.

    “Well compensated”. Interesting term. If the budget was the reason for elimination of bargaining rights, did the compensation go down to “save the budget”? If someone cuts your wages are you feeling “well compensated”?

    I wonder how many tax give aways Indiana provided to businesses to “balance the budget” on the backs of the public workers who are now ‘well compensated”?

    Let’s see what research will tell us:

    Average wages per hour and average annual salary figures for Indiana Highway maintenance workers .

    According to the U.S. Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates for Highway maintenance workers [OCC_CODE: 47-4051] in the state of Indiana (IN) [Area: 18] are as follows:

    The estimated total number of employed (rounded to the nearest 10 and excluding self-employed) is 4,080 [with a percent relative standard error of 4.6%]

    The mean hourly wage is $12.39

    The mean annual wage or salary is $25,760

    Well compensated.

    Now…..watch Tmell make an insulting remark because I, again, demonstrated that he is a ventriloquist and that voice is coming from his keester…..

  30. JudasEscargot says:

    TMell – aren’t you proud of the hired security that tackled an Assemblyman trying to get to his office in Madison last night?

    Nobody is “caving in” any sooner than anyone is “well compensated” in Indiana.

  31. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

    2010 total union membership was 14,7 million, public union membership was 7.6 million (52%) and private union membership w)as 7.1 million (48%).

    From what I hear there are 3 GOP senators that are considering coming out against Walker’s bill.

  32. JudasEscargot says:

    From Think Progress:

    Because the recall statute allows elected officials to serve for a full year before they are subject to recall, Walker himself is immune until January of 2012. Eight of Walker’s Republican allies in the state senate have served at least one year of their current term, however, and thus are eligible for a recall petition right now. If just three of these Republicans were to be replaced with Democrats, the state senate would flip to a Democratic-majority body.

    The eight Republicans who can be recalled right now are:

    Robert Cowles
    Alberta Darling
    Sheila Harsdorf
    Luther Olsen
    Randy Hopper
    Glenn Grothman
    Mary Lazich
    Dan Kapanke

    When next January rolls around, a little over 500,000 petition signatures will be necessary to trigger a recall election for Gov. Walker.

  33. … sorry, after all the ‘Bush is responsible for oil profits’ selective outrage I just thought I’d point out that under Barry (the obama) that gas prices have risen over 80% since Bush was president… yep… kooky.

  34. “This concerted effort to break the unions threatens our national values and democracy itself.”

    I guess being elected as governor of Wisconsin isn’t part of the Bambi definition of Democracy. Bambi = failure of the public school system.

    One of the dumbest letters about the situation in Wisconsin to be printed. From either side.

  35. Indiana, 2 adults, 2 kids
    Living wage $25.36
    Poverty wage $ 9.83
    Minimum wage $ 7.25

    http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/

  36. The main reason gas is so high is the oil companies are taking advantage to the situation in the middle east and our dependence on oil and gas to make a few million dollars more in profitrs.

    1) In 2001 the limit on profit-per –barrel was removed and oil was added to futures commodities treading list.

    2) Most of Alaska’s crude goes to Asia, most of the Gulf crude goes to Europe and South America, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of land based wells that are setting capped and idle.

    3) Oil companies in general have made a trillion $ in PROFITS over the last decade while collecting something like $43 billion in subsidies from the U.S. taxpayers (thanks to the GOP).

  37. It is quite telling how easily my leftist friends will apologize and make excuses for little Barry.

  38. “The majority of members of most unions are NOT public employees, unless you include employers such as Boeing, auto manufacturers, rental car companies, hospitals, grocery stores and so forth in your definition of “public”.”

    According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2010 there were 7.6 million union members in public service and 7.1 million members in the private sector.

    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

  39. Whoops! I didn’t see xring’s post on union membership.

  40. ij – pray tell, just what did “Barry” do to raise gas prices? Not invade Libya?

  41. And just what does the price of gas have to do with union busting?

    D.O.C.? or just common trolltactic to divert the thread?

  42. madmike272 says:

    Who the hell names their kid Bambi? Her parents must of been hippies in the 60’s.

  43. “whatIdo says:
    March 4, 2011 at 9:45 pm
    … sorry, after all the ‘Bush is responsible for oil profits’ selective outrage I just thought I’d point out that under Barry (the obama) that gas prices have risen over 80% since Bush was president… yep… kooky.”
    You should do just a little research before you spout your nonsense. Bush took specific actions that caused the price of gas to rise. Under President Obama, so far, the rise in prices has been pure supply and demand.
    http://www.yuricareport.com/Energy/How%20Did%20Oil%20Prices%20Get%20so%20High.htm
    Great letter Bambi. Exactly correct.

  44. Fatuous, good post, the two use different sources so one reinforces the other.

  45. “1) In 2001 the limit on profit-per –barrel was removed and oil was added to futures commodities treading list.”

    I couldn’t find anything to this limit on profit statement. Please provide us a link.

    “Most of Alaska’s crude goes to Asia, most of the Gulf crude goes to Europe and South America, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of land based wells that are setting capped and idle.”

    I can’t find anything on the Internet that backs the export part of your statement. The EIA tables seem to disagree with you.

    The capped land wells statement seems like a bit of a red herring, as it would make sense to cap any wells that don’t produce enough oil to be profitable.

  46. witchiwoman says:

    Right on, Bambi Lin Litchman! You tell it like it really is.

  47. TSkidmore says:

    I wonder if organized labor is going to wake up after 50 years of losing every legal and cultural battle and never fighting back? Business and the Republicons started the attack with the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947. The biggest corporations met in 1971 and put together the final attack plan that is in play today and has already pretty much done it private sector unions. And will the Democrats figure out this is actually about drying up their only source of campaign bucks that doesn’t make them total sell-outs to the corporate interests? The Wisconsin battle is really over the complete take over by the oligarchy ruling class. Given the incompetent leadership of both labor and the Democratic Party I have little hope for American Democracy now or ever! Sad!

  48. http://www.careerbuilder.com/Jobs/Company/C8C1CK6L5FLYF35XH5K/Indiana-State-Government/

    100% of Indiana retirement paid by the State, dental paid in full, 12 paid holidays, 22.5 hours personal time, up to 90 hours per year vacation, 67.5 hours sick leave. Yeah, Indiana has been real regressive without collective bargaining “rights” for the past 5 plus years. Go, Walker go! Current studies show pay within 5.9% of private sector. I’d take that opportunity anyday, adding all the bennies and job security. Definitely the definition of well-compensated. About time other states “well-compensate” their employees, but don’t over-compensate as has been the tradition. Time to break the unions stranglehold on the system.

  49. ratujack says:

    Bambi is a puppy born to a couple of government union workers. The comments are coming from those that obviously live off of the rest of us. Government Union-ists. You are making Marx/Lenin proud of you.

  50. Judas-I’m impressed! That was a cute maneuver above, using a “mean” statistic versus a “median” statistic and choosing a specific job that would be heavy on unskilled laborers, pulling the “mean” much lower than the “median”. George Soros would be proud. Median wage for an Indiana highway worker(average wage versus wage with 1/2 of employees making less and 1/2 of employees making more for you liberals who may not know the specific difference between median and mean) is 14.29. As xring points out, a family of two, with two kids, both working at 14.29 is above the states “working wage”. And great benefits, great job stablity and a great retirement. Sounds like a good deal for someone who chooses to be a highway worker.

  51. ItalianSpring says:

    A wonderful letter to be sure. And not one mention of preserving FREEDOM at all. Truly an award winning lib letter.

  52. “ratujack says:
    March 5, 2011 at 10:55 am”
    What a bunch of ignorant racist c–p!

  53. ratujack says:

    Publico…….you talk tooo much……..

  54. firemannotfirefighter says:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/why_citizens_united_helps_the.html

    You want to post from Fire Dog lake, look I can post from a partisan and one tracked publication too. Try a LEGITIMATE source that repeats that (And no, Maddow and Oldermann and Schultz aren’t any more legitimate than Rush, Hannity or Coulter)

    The simple fact is that Unions are nothing more than corporations themselves. You may have some misguided belief about what they are, but that is probably because you have never belonged to a Union, or been a Union official (Currently belong to the IAFF and am a former Union Official).

    As far as my fellow brothers and sisters risking their lives for me, it has less to do with our Union and more to do with who and what we are. Something that Judas couldn’t possibly understand. It’s above you!

    Finally, who the hell said I am anti-union? Judas and Publico attempt to run the conversation using FAR left opinions. Check out the IAFF political endorsement pages morons. We are Bi-Partisan! I know, what a concept, endorsing based on the individual, and not the party, but I guess Firemen are just a little higher on the cerebral ladder than left-wing trolls!

  55. firemannotfirefighter says:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-herrington/citizens-united-prohibits_b_824908.html

    Here is more proof of what am I saying, and this time it comes from HuffPo…

    You guys should really quit taking what google spits out as the top search result, and look a little.

  56. ratujack – you reveal yourself.

  57. JudasEscargot says:

    “what ratujack said at:
    March 5, 2011 at 10:55 am”

    rather than repeat that verbal garbage, I can only…..

    :::::::::::::vomit::::::::::::

  58. Tmell you sound like a country club republican. – higher than average income or wealth, lack of sympathy for lower income citizens, and an over developed since of self worth.

  59. JudasEscargot says:

    Now this story ran in January of 2007, thus is over 4 years old, so it’s time for the CONservatives to rewind the old tapes, thinking that people have forgotten what was learned just 4 years ago:

    The Insight article was cited several times Friday on Fox News and was also referenced by the New York Post, The Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News and a number of political blogs.

    But reporting by CNN in Jakarta, Indonesia and Washington, D.C., shows the allegations that Obama attended a madrassa to be false. CNN dispatched Senior International Correspondent John Vause to Jakarta to investigate.

    He visited the Basuki school, which Obama attended from 1969 to 1971.

    This is a public school. We don’t focus on religion,” Hardi Priyono, deputy headmaster of the Basuki school, told Vause. “In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don’t give preferential treatment.

    Vause reported he saw boys and girls dressed in neat school uniforms playing outside the school, while teachers were dressed in Western-style clothes.

    “I came here to Barack Obama’s elementary school in Jakarta looking for what some are calling an Islamic madrassa … like the ones that teach hate and violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan,” Vause said on the “Situation Room” Monday. “I’ve been to those madrassas in Pakistan … this school is nothing like that.”

  60. JudasEscargot says:

    So TMell is now saying that union workers negotiated benefits in lieu of wages? And all this time we thought that they were just trying to break the backs of the taxpayers by taking fantastic wages along with Cadillac benefts.

    One of these days the CONservatives will get their stories straight.

    Meanwhile the average household income in 2009 was $52,000. Indiana state workers cited (regardless of $13 or $14 per year) are just barely making enough to take up half of an average household income in the United States and to hit the average both partners must make about the same (give or take a buck).

    Call me picky, but I’d like to think that “well compensated” is “better than average”.

    Maybe TMell’s standards are lower than mine.

  61. JudasEscargot says:

    xring – Sorry, I have to disagree. I know many country club members, due to my work with said organizations.

    TMell looks more like a Country Club Wannabee. The people that I have met in private clubs that have real wealth are usually kind and generous.

  62. Fireman, an interesting article, that does not say anything to support your contention that unions supported the Citizens United Case.

    J_E, a good point. A reread the complete definition of a CCR, and found no indication that one had to actually belong to a country club to be a CCR.

  63. Xring-I am one of 10 children, raised on a single income from a state dept of transportation worker. Not once did my parents take reduced lunches(though we qualified), or any other aid. My mom said that was there for people who really needed it. That’s the difference. My dad never made more than 42,000.00 a year. I have worked hard, and am successful. I also am involved with a number of charities, and appreciate the opportunity each of us has in this nation. I was at a boys and girls club function 2 weeks ago at the Tacoma Convention Center, watching some amazing kids speaking about what they have overcome. There were about a thousand people there, giving of their own choice. Don’t attempt to think that just because people don’t agree with additional taxation that they don’t care about others. And Judas-if I have to explain to you that “well-compensated” is relative to what someone does, I give. A highway worker making 14.29 on average is “well-compensated” for what they do.

  64. Well Tmell defiantly meets the criteria, and obviously never worked on a highway in July.

  65. No, never have. Did do roofing when I was a highschooler, all summer long for a family friend. It was tough, unskilled manual labor.

  66. The difference between union thugs and true Americans is: “When the Tea
    party completed their demonstrations, everything was cleaned and it did not
    cost the taxpayers one penny.” “When the union thugs were finished with their
    occupation of the House in Wisconsin, the taxpayer was stiffed to the tune of
    approximately 3/4 million dollars for cleanup.”

  67. TSkidmore says:

    Anyone who thinks the Nazi Party cannot take hold here just has to cruise thru the garbage posted in this section of the TNT. Anyone who doesn’t think so I would suggest your get yourself a book on Goebbels – Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda. No different than the garbage coming from Fox Noise – Beck – that evil Michael Savage – O’Really – and on and on. And that rant on Obama’s live story is just basically a lie…mass insanity!

  68. The righwing does nothing but lie to their stupids and fear monger. It is beyond disgusting to such gullible exploited Americans like the republican.

  69. “…obviously never worked on a highway in July.”

    Just becasue the work is physically hard in unpleasant environments does not necessarally eqate to a high wage.

    In general the more you work with your back, the lower your wage.

    Work with your brain, a higher wage.

    Work with your brain and not many people can do what you do… at the higher end of the wage scale.

    Fair, unfair… nope that’s life.

  70. For TSkidmore. I lived during the times of Goebel and Eichmann, and it’s
    obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. Oops! Gotta run!
    Can’t miss Fox News – Becks on!

  71. Objective says:

    TSkidmore says:

    March 5, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Anyone who thinks the Nazi Party cannot take hold here just has to cruise thru the garbage posted in this section of the TNT. Anyone who doesn’t think so I would suggest your get yourself a book on Goebbels – Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda. No different than the garbage coming from Fox Noise – Beck – that evil Michael Savage – O’Really – and on and on. And that rant on Obama’s live story is just basically a lie…mass insanity!
    —————————————————————————————–
    Agree with you to some extent. But I see the same stuff with the Communist News Network and MSNBC. Also I would like to add some additional reading, like “Animal Farm” and “1984”.
    I would really like to see Obama really prove Beck, Savage and O’Reilly wrong!!!!!!!! That would be by pulling out his birth certificate and etc.. Then state here it is for ALL to see!!!!!!!!! Imagine what that would do to Fox News.

    What is the difference between the Corporations and the Unions? Both are trying to take in as much money from the other as possible. On a smaller scale such as personal finances or small business. If you can not pay the wages or other expenses, do you dig a deeper hole or do you make the cuts in layoffs or just go out of business. Even in Washington State, teachers are being released due to cuts. What are the Unions doing to help them?
    Also remember take a look at our own Legislature, they are taking the time to vote on “What the state bird will be”. I ask to keep that in mind, especially when Gregoire calls for another Special Session, cause they did not have enought time to work out the budget at a cost of approximately $20,000 a day at the taxpayers expense.

  72. Uscha,

    What a pathetic right wing lie. Right out of the old KKK play book from the days of segregation.

    Of course one only needs to look at the unbiased source (www.slate.com).

    It is almost as unbelievable as your Gobbels and Eichmann story.

    TSidmore,
    To prove Beck, Savage, or O’Reilly one only has to listen to their bastardization of history and current events.

    The most fundamental differences between Unions and Corporations, is Unions want to keep well paying jobs here; Corporations want to send them overseas.

  73. Objective says:

    xring
    The most fundamental differences between Unions and Corporations, is Unions want to keep well paying jobs here; Corporations want to send them overseas.
    —————————————————————————————————
    I would like to suggest that Unions like the UAW take over the company and run it themselves. Then we can keep jobs here and eliminate the corporations. If we are lucky, we can also elminate bailouts. Maybe the unions should take over Wisconsin too. I am sure they would be able to run the state governement quite well.

  74. Not getting between your love spat here but got a question to help my feeble mind…

    xring when you say:
    “To prove Beck, Savage, or O’Reilly one only has to listen to their bastardization of history and current events.”

    Do you have at least one specifc point of fact that Beck (for one) has claimed that is in fact wring. I am not speaking of his opinion, that you can disgreee with but is seperate form fact / data…

    Just asking, your statement get thrown around a bit and I have yet to get an answer. I really need your help to know whether when Beck uses the actual words of the subject that he is in fact using the actual words of the subject (say that three times fast….)

    Anyway, just asking, back to slinging…

  75. rr – start here for the beginning of a very long list of Beck lies

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090801235203AAgK2ig

  76. Alright, I further opened this can of feces… here goes…

    Answers.yahoo.com – stop, please… some yahoo (no pun intended) answering a question is not credible to me. But all is not lost, he did refer to politifact.com for one “answer”

    So how about a point of order – we use as best as credible, a source for analysis. For the purpose of this conversation let’s use what is referred to in one of the yahoo answers – http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/29/glenn-beck/glenn-beck-claims-science-czar-john-holdren-propos/

    They rate it as “Pants on Fire”. I tend to use that as an appetizer, as I am more interested in the logic to get from statement to supporting fact and or data.

    I would like more from the Beck quote – in the second paragraph I am not clear if that is the whole statement, what the context is and what the subject is. (PS – I do this for liberal statements too). I think that is fair to want more from the source to ensure that I place it in proper context for analysis.

    John Holdren has spent a significant portion of his life researching and writing portions of a book that in conjunction with his co-authors, “We have tried throughout the book to state clearly where we stand on various matters of controversy.” So Holdren presents his case, 1,000 pages worth… of which some was used on the Glenn Beck TV show.

    Fast forwarding since this can be a longer post than we have space and attention span for… So I offer this from reading the Politifact post, Beck made a statement of opinion (in my view) based on his research of the book as well as Holdren’s career. Do I think Glenn Beck is lying, No. Do I think Politifact is unfair in their interpretation of Glenn Beck’s statement, I am not sure.

    We can argue the semantics of what Glenn Beck said and painfully parse what is written and Holdren’s career since writing the book. Bottom line if one hates Glenn Beck you will probably find that he “lies”.

    beerBoy – do you think Glenn Beck lies? Let’s just focus on the link above, do you think Glenn Beck is lying or is it just an opinion that you (?) disagree with?

  77. JudasEscargot says:

    “rr98411 says:
    March 5, 2011 at 5:18 pm
    “…obviously never worked on a highway in July.”

    Just becasue the work is physically hard in unpleasant environments does not necessarally eqate to a high wage.”

    Spoken by someone who has obviously never run heavy equipment and had the responsibility of making something level. I’d love to see a few of these geniuses use a bucket loader . I’d sell tickets and popcorn to the event.

  78. JudasEscargot says:

    “TMell says:
    March 5, 2011 at 4:16 pm
    No, never have. Did do roofing when I was a highschooler, all summer long for a family friend. It was tough, unskilled manual labor.”

    Unskilled – until you do it wrong Don’t do the valleys correct and see what happens.

  79. JudasEscargot says:

    “TMell says:
    March 5, 2011 at 3:59 pm
    Xring-I am one of 10 children, raised on a single income from a state dept of transportation worker.”

    Although this sounds like a line from Denzel Washington in the football movie, I’d suggest that TMell thank his father’s union wages.

  80. Judas-my dads 80, he wasn’t unionized back when he worked for the state DOT. It still had stupid rules. When he was handling the McKenna bridge project, he was required to drive into Lacey to the DOT office, then get the state vehicle, then drive back to McKenna(we were raised in Yelm, just down the street. Ultimately, he was able to convince some bureaucrat that it made more sense for the state vehicle to be parked at the county gravel/sand pit just down the road. Saved an hour plus a day for the state, and another hour plus for him. He also contributed to his own deferred compensation plan, and planned for being able to take 500.00 per month from his deferred comp savings plan from the time he retired until his social security kicked in. Planned years ahead, chose to invest in ultra secure, low growth funds, lived within his means, paid his home off in 1969. I was raised to be responsible. I try to do the same thing with my children. My 16 year old daughter mows the yard for gas money. Best part? SHE asked me to teach her how to use my mower so she could earn gas money. My neighbors shake their heads, smile and say they can’t even get their daughter to take the garbage out.

  81. Most heavy equipment operators I know earn between 35 and 40 an hour Judas. If you misread my prior post to believe that I was saying all roofing jobs were unskilled, sorry. I was referring to my job roofing as a highschooler. Tear-offs, going slat by slat to remove every nail so you could sheet to replace the old cedar roofs with comp, and carrying shingle bundles up a ladder. Very physical, very menial, very unskilled. And I smile when I remember it.

  82. Just asking Judas…

    Does working in a kitchen as a teenager washing 300+ settings per meal along with commercial pots and pans count?

    Does working as a jet engine mechanic as a young Airman, using a loader to remove and replace a jet engine on a plane count?

    Does running a fire engine pump and ladder for a fire department count?

    Does helping out roofing and dry walling a house helping out some friends count?

    Does running a tractor helping out my wife on a horse farm that she manages count?

    We all have a choices to make… a person wants to make money with their back, I applaud them, good for them. I did and do now in some ways. I just noticed I seem to get paid more for my brain and skills then with my back and brawn.

    Construction workers have built America literally from digging a hole in the dirt to riveting steel up to the sky. I hold all the respect in the world for them. But if you think that they are holier than thou because they choose to work with their hands and back while I choose to work in an air conditioned office that they just completed, typing crap into a keyboard that manipulates server farms because it pays more… (at least for now) please…

    Yeah, please get the popcorn… Me on a front loader, you with a keyboard trying to stop a hacker from penetrating a government firewall. That will be fun to watch.

  83. Hang in there Governor Walker! You got em’ on the run! There’s no debate here. The union will cave because they are on the losing side. It’s so simple even a liberal should be able to figure it out. But then……?

  84. Wow! I’m surprised at you xring! Such anger! All conservatives are liar? Hmm. I suspect the government slipped an extra fifty in your last month’s
    welfare check.

  85. Objective: are you advocating Communism or just socialism. Econ for dick and jane: businesses, unions, and consumers are legs on a stool, when all is balanced (not equal but balanced) the stool is stable; when the legs are not balanced the stool is not stable.

    rr: Glenn Beck. Either you love him or you hate him.

    The problem is not finding one; it is narrowing them down to one.

    I’ll go with his blaming the evils of slavery on government regulation.

    http://glennbeckisanidiot.com/

    I read one of Ingraham’s books and came away thinking it was proof validating 1 Timothy 2:11-12

    Frosty, latest report I say was there were 3 Republican Senators considering coming out against the Walker bill.

    Usaha; sorry to bust your bubble, but I a have a well paying full time job, have never been on welfare or unemployment.

  86. klthompson says:

    Who is John Galt?

  87. TSkidmore says:

    Usaha – maybe you lived “during” the time Hitler was in power but there is plenty written that disputes your memory and it comes right from Goebbels diary and works showing the similarity between the current Republicon right and the Fox Noise cons! Further all you anti-union promoters just remember unions have been around at least since the pyramids were built by organized workers (famous strike in the Valley of Kings) over 3000 years ago! Over 100 unions in Rome in the 1st Century. Unions never die they just re-structure…and come back stronger than before….keep pushing bozos and you’re not going to like what you get in return!.

  88. klthompson says:

    From “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand

    “When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion–when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing–when you see money flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors–when you see that men get richer by graft and pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you–when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice–you may know that your society is doomed.”

  89. Ayn Rand quotes are less impressive than Daffy Duck’s selfishly motivated soliloquies – and far less entertaining.

  90. JudasEscargot says:

    “you with a keyboard trying to stop a hacker from penetrating a government firewall”

    WOW……I’m impressed. No software required.

    Now I KNOW I want to see the bucketloader act.

  91. JudasEscargot says:

    “TMell says:
    March 6, 2011 at 10:37 am
    Judas-my dads 80, he wasn’t unionized back when he worked for the state DOT.”

    I can’t seem to find when the DOT organized, but since my dad would be about 94 and he was involved in the Painter’s Union in the 1950s, I would be surprised that the road workers weren’t organized then. I have a friend in the Operating Engineers union. When I catch up with him, I’ll have the answer and you can bet that I shove it in the right non-sunny place.

    I find it fascinating that someone would complain about a skilled technical worker being paid $35-$45 an hour, but defend a CEO being paid 500 times that.

    According to state regulations, operating engineers must complete 6- 8 thousand hours of OJT and 210 of classroom study.

  92. JudasEscargot says:

    frosty either missed or tried to ignore this:

    The eight Republicans who can be recalled right now are:

    Robert Cowles
    Alberta Darling
    Sheila Harsdorf
    Luther Olsen
    Randy Hopper
    Glenn Grothman
    Mary Lazich
    Dan Kapanke

  93. kit: similar sentiments can be found in the Book of Revelations.

  94. Objective says:

    xring says:

    March 6, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    Objective: are you advocating Communism or just socialism. Econ for dick and jane: businesses, unions, and consumers are legs on a stool, when all is balanced (not equal but balanced) the stool is stable; when the legs are not balanced the stool is not stable.
    ——————————————————————————————–
    Neither, I believe if an employee does not like how their bosse(s) / owner(s) of a business are doing things. Why don’t they leave, start their own business and do it better?
    Back to your saying above. Even if the stool is balanced and stable. How much pressure / weight can it withstands before breaking? That stool just might have been made in China, and we know how reliable their products are.

  95. J_E & TmellL I have a young relative that works at one of the major home improvement stores. The floor workers earn $10-$12 per hour. To be certified (by the store) to operate a forklift earns them a big whooping $0.00 per hour( as in nothing). And the certification is only good at the store that issues it.

    Objective,
    In the 1950’s the American auto industry was probable the most highly unionized industry in American and not only was it one of the largest, but one of the most profitable.

    Unions = quality workers, so the stool would be sturdy and functional; fashionable I’ll leave to the eye of the buyer.

  96. I read through a bunch of slime above. Oh, wait, I see comments from JudasEscargot where he has the usual personal connection to the topic.

    Never mind….

  97. TSkidmore says:

    Just a little funny here….do all you anti-union wing nuts realize Lumpbah, Beck and O’Really are all members of AFTRA – a Union – and one that some years back got O’Really a huge settlement on a grievance (and he has talked about it on his show). They got theirs and they don’t give a hoot about the suckers who listen to their drivel…..as P.T. Barnum said – “there is a sucker born every minute” and today they are the Fox Noise listening audience!

  98. xring – “…narrowing them down to one.”

    Your doing it too. Why is it that when I ask your opinion you provide a link to what somebody else thinks? Dude, I got the Politifact link as an example. Do you or do you not have an opinion on that specific one so that we are at least in the same zip code? Anything???

  99. “WOW……I’m impressed. No software required.

    Now I KNOW I want to see the bucketloader act.”

    Judas… that’s it, that’s all you got… you ignore everything else and deliver this one liner… wow

  100. Rr – today at 6:15 AM you asked me “Do you have at least one specifc point of fact that Beck (for one) has claimed that is in fact wring” (sic)

    The statement I pointed out, with certification that it was said by Beck, is IMO false; take your pick, Beck lied, or he’s total ignorant about slavery in America.

  101. Oh, forgot, FOX now has legal permission to lie while calling everything on MSNBC a lie.

  102. IMO: Glenn Beck has lied repeatedly about the death of his mother, calling it a suicide. The official reason is accidental drowning possible due to misadventure.

  103. Objective says:

    Objective,
    In the 1950’s the American auto industry was probable the most highly unionized industry in American and not only was it one of the largest, but one of the most profitable.

    Unions = quality workers, so the stool would be sturdy and functional; fashionable I’ll leave to the eye of the buyer.
    ————————————————————————————————
    Have a couple questions regarding Union Workers. Why would I support a Union Worker over a Non-Union Worker? Do they have more certifications, qualifications than those that are Non-Union? Now here we are 50+ years later, what happened to the auto industry?

    As for the stool, I am aware Americans make some of the best products in the world. But how much did it cost to make that quality stool and can anyone that is non-union afford it?

  104. xring – “The statement I pointed out, with certification that it was said by Beck, is IMO false; take your pick, Beck lied, or he’s total ignorant about slavery in America.”

    You refer to blogs, probably some guy sitting in his underwear, in his basement, waiting for milk and cookies from mommy… is that really the extent of your ability to research, analyze and present YOUR opinion of any information.

    Reference to a blog and the ability to put keywords in a search engine are a pitiful example of the ability to use the critical thinking skills that God has given all of us. Jesus weeps people…

    OK, specific question…

    Using Politifact as a basis for discussion and the charge that Beck lies, etc…. can you please present your specific opinion about why you think he does or does not lie. Can you point to specific items in your research to back up or refute your claim? I have a copy of the book referred to in the Politifact article, what is your opinion of the statement from the authors in the prefix (it is referred to in the Politifact article). Though the statement was made by Beck, considering that the context in which the statement was made is left out of the quote, do you think is has any bearing on how a reader might interpret that statement?

    I need coffee….

  105. “IMO: Glenn Beck has lied repeatedly about the death of his mother, calling it a suicide. The official reason is accidental drowning possible due to misadventure.”

    I got no problem getting into the gutter and on a frisky day, even the community cesspool with you or anybody… but I have enough self respect to not go down the road where this will eventually take us.

    The Mom card… really… sad…

    Forget the coffe for now… I need a shower…

  106. obj – Unions build product, they don’t do design and they don’t make bad executive decisions. But the sure catch the blame then the company does bankrupt. And there products were affordable, until CEO’s stated making 500 times what they paid the workers.

    rr – you need more than coffee.

  107. JudasEscargot says:

    “You refer to blogs, probably some guy sitting in his underwear, in his basement, waiting for milk and cookies from mommy… ”

    OR….he could be pretending to save the United States from hackers.

  108. JudasEscargot says:

    “Now here we are 50+ years later, what happened to the auto industry?”

    The union labor of autos makes up about 20% of the cost of the product. The rest is raw materials and…….marketing/management, along with design.

  109. rr – Found something that relates to your “opinions not lies” assertion.

    Some people have posted that they don’t see any lies on this page, only opinions. If you haven’t actually read through the 20 pages in the Scribd Excel spreadsheet below, please save yourself the embarrassment by reading the spreadsheet carefully before you make that assertion.

    http://glennbeckreport.com/glenn-beck-lies/#LiesSpreadsheet

    Think you might want to read the spreadsheet in its entirety.

  110. rr -Beck is the one that keeps bring up the lie about his mother.
    And that he continues to lie about her death illustrates his truthfulness.

  111. bBoy – “Think you might want to read the spreadsheet in its entirety.”

    Beerboy, I’m sorry but you are doing it too. The flaw in the spreadsheet (as well as the blogs) is the same flaw for all arguments of the same type regardless of who the person is saying it.

    In this case the column – Lie – either does not take the statement in context nor, in most cases, does not include the actual quote. What you are reading is an interpretation, summary, paraphrase, etc of what Beck said. Said by someone who sole goal is to discredit him.

    That being said you also are asked to assume that the editor of the spreadsheet is as objective as possible… come on… bridge for sale here…

    As an example – 10/12/2009, I remember that show and Beck referred to the IBD poll. You could quibble about the poll but I remember that it was used to illustrate the concern current Doctors have about the health care bill.

    I submit that you can make a similar spreadsheet for all opinionated host on any program on any network. If we were that important, even the contributors here on this discussion board.

    Anybody wanna hate Beck, go for it. I am just amazed at how we allow other people to think for us as oppose to thinking for ourselves.

    The question still stands – what do you think and why? Sorry not interested in what someone else thinks.

  112. Judas – pretend, nope… just standard IT security policy…

    Again… that’s it, that’s all you got… you ignore everything else and deliver this one liner… wow

  113. rr – the time lag is because the judge needs time to review the arugments, to reach a decission, and to write up his final opinion.

    Actually, the when, where, and why of the court proceedings are of far less importance that the simple, incontrovertible fact that FOX was defending its right to lie (not just spin the news) to the American people while claiming to be a ‘fair and balanced news source.’

    BTW FOX LIES chairman Roger Ailes in under investigation for telling someone to lie to federal investigators who were vetting now-disgraced ex-New York police commissioner Bernard Kerik for a Cabinet post in 2004.

    IMO Beck knowing lies! Anything said by any FOX on-air personality is suspect because FOX has a policy of knowing lying.

    Can’t make it any clearer than that.

  114. beerBoy is only interested in “context” when it is used in service of viewpoints he supports.
    .
    beerBoy wrote on 03/17/2010 06:21:42 AM:
    johnsherman – quoting edited sentences out of context contributes to the “fog of controversy” that has been created around this issue.
    .
    ;)

  115. rr – You Sir are a cross between an ostrich and a dodo, who would not see the forest if a tree fell on you, and would waste time arranging beach chairs while a tsunami came at you.

    Translation: you fail to see the obvious, and ignore the important.

  116. what edited sentences did I quote out of context?

    Here is a specific lie:
    Glenn claims that Saul Alinsky’s book “Rules for Radicals” is dedicated to Lucifer. This is a lie. Well, unless “Irene” is also called “Lucifer”.

    another one: Beck, speaking at a podium while using telepromters to deliver his speech: “I don’t use teleprompters, I just speak from here (pointing at heart)”

    http://glennbeckreport.com/glenn-beck-lies/

  117. I’m refering to your “spreadsheet”.

    Sorry you missed the obvious.

  118. Taking a deep breath as I say I feel like a trial lawyer defending a child molester. (sick observation – if I was more important, someone on the internet world would take that line and state “GLENN BECK compared to a CHILD MOLESTER… but I digress)

    First – I don’t believe I say you quote a sentence out of context, I was referring to the spreadsheet…. Or are you talking to WhatIDo???

    Based on your presentation above… there is a page that says “To Irene”. The next page is three quotes of which the Lucifer is last of them. I will submit that I did not see the word “Dedicated” OK… what is the purpose of the quotes especially in the context of the books subject? You got any ideas? Is it part of the dedication? Is it really a lie or just his interpretation of the layout of the book?

    My view based on the research… The book is dedicated to Irene. The Rabbi, Thomas Paine and Lucifer are influential to the theme of the book. Now, is Beck lying or does he just have a different interpretation of what he sees?

    The second one is actually a great illustration of my point. Beck is invited to speak in a venue that probably had other speakers where they actually used the teleprompters. The logic according to the website is that “Anyone who cares about what they say to the public uses them, or written notes,…”

    The dude has a hard enough time following the prompter in his studio (where he is restricted by time points) and adlibs quite a bit. He does not use one on his radio show. And every speech I have seen him give he does not use one.

    How about the logic the poster uses to make his case. Does the logic used make any sense to you? Does it rise to any level of a credible standard? It appears to me to be based on personal preference not on any basis of fact. If you are calling someone a liar shouldn’t the standard to measure that lie be based on some fact somewhere. This one is beyond petty.

    The sole purpose of these sites is to demonize another human being. Can you imagine the personalities of the people who spend their precious time on earth that God has granted them, looking for, and twisting every word of another human being.

    On a side note:

    What gave me a little chuckle as I researched the source of your post… right above the Lucifer stuff is this little ditty:

    Due to staffing changes and data errors in changing webhosts, Glenn Beck Lies is temporarily seeing less maintenance than normal. This situation is temporary. However, we are soliciting help on this task so if you would like to do something that amounts to a blow to Glenn Beck’s fortress of lies, please contact us at the email below.

    Staffing changes – hmm, wonder why…

    Data errors – regardless of reason do you really want to admit that when the purpose of your site is to point out the “errors” of the subject in question… hmmm, actually ROTFLMFAO…

    Soliciting help – can you imagine the applicants for that job. I wondered how much milk and cookies it pays.

  119. xring says:
    March 3, 2011 at 1:45 pm
    I don’t throw sticks and stones, I throw facts and figures, They hurt more
    ..

    xring says:
    March 7, 2011 at 10:38 am
    rr – You Sir are a cross between an ostrich and a dodo
    ..
    Lol…

  120. btw.. did you hear Obama broke a record today? (I think he held the one previous too)

  121. BlaineCGarver says:

    NimRod bloggers….can’t live with ‘em, can’t shut ‘em up. What the heck happened to the OP??? Or can any of you NimRods remember the topic?
    Seems Bambi (really?) thinks that the GOP would take us back to the days of sweatshops, child labor, 16 hour, 7 day work weeks….what a moron. Even you NimRods should be pissed that she would think you moron enough to believe a line like that. Damn amatures.

  122. The way things are going Big Business wants to take us forward to being a third world county, with a few % of the population controlling the country and its wealth, and the rest wage slave consuming units.

  123. It’s really laughable reading comments from all you whacko liberals. “Let
    me remind you: In 2010, we drained the first half of the swamp – In 2012, we
    conservatives will complete the job by draining the other half.” I imagine all you liberals are just pulling your hair out.

  124. uscha – don’t count you chickens before they hatch.

  125. 2006 – Electorate votes for big change
    2008 – Electorate votes for big change
    2010 – Electorate votes for big change

    The pressure is on for the most recent winners to deliver – and quick.

  126. Objective says:

    xring says:
    March 6, 2011 at 2:19 pm
    Objective: are you advocating Communism or just socialism. Econ for dick and jane: businesses, unions, and consumers are legs on a stool, when all is balanced (not equal but balanced) the stool is stable; when the legs are not balanced the stool is not stable.

    xring says:
    March 7, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    The way things are going Big Business wants to take us forward to being a third world county, with a few % of the population controlling the country and its wealth, and the rest wage slave consuming units.
    —————————————————————————————–
    I have to ask now, are you advocating Socialism or Communism, with your Mar 7th comment.

    Also your stool could be out of balance if you are using 3 legs instead of 4. You mentioned the corporations, the unions and the consumers. Could the 4th leg be non-union workers? Ever tried to sit on a stool or chair, that was meant to have 4 legs but one was missing?

    I would also like to ask anybody commenting. What is the difference between a Union Employee and a Non-Union Employee, other than pay? Do Union workers have additional skills, certifications etc., than non-union workers? I have read above “Union= Quality” if so, can somebody give me a reasonable explanation supporting that claim?

  127. As a sidebar to your question, I believe the IT industry is one that is beginning to embrace unionization. IT wise, in general government shops tend to be more union than civilian.

    My experience is purely anecdotal. 15 years ago if you could spell HTML you could have literally name your salary and benefits package as businesses found the value of the internet. Today, HTML skills are ho-hum. In general, if you have knowledge, skills and abilities that are relatively specialized, in demand and consistently solve a current business problem you will be in demand and are better off non-union as you can negotiate a better package for yourself. Warning – the timeline on your value does have an expiration date. That being said, you become responsible for keeping yourself currently relevant skill wise.

    When I worked in government we tended to be more cookie cutter and hired contractors to upgrade systems (they tended to be more skilled than we were in the newer technologies). We were then responsible for operations and maintenance of the systems. Relatively speaking the skill set required tends to be lower than those that are on the cutting edge of technology.

    I work for myself now and though I can name my price it is directly tied to the value I bring to organizations and the ability to solve their problem. I spend a great deal of time and money trying to stay at the front end of the IT knowledge, skill and ability freight train. Drawback… tradeoff… either way a choice for now.

    To attempt to answer your question and speaking from one industry, those IT workers that tend to be at the cutting edge of technology tend to be non-union. They have specialized skills and because of competition tend to have industry certifications to differentiate themselves from the perceived hacks.

    Those IT workers that are union, tend to be in government and work on systems that are more established. They have skills that are relevant to the technology in place and tend to be older. Certifications are less important but a union may attempt to negotiate extra pay if a worker gets an industry certification.

    As far as the stool, I believe a better analogy is – business, worker (union and non-union) and consumer.

  128. For lack of a better or formal name, let’s just say I support ‘Cooperative Capitalism’ where in labor (union and none union), business, and the government all work for the common good of the nation and all citizens.

    rr, thank you, it was my mistake to not include all works rather than just union workers.

  129. ps: objective: 3 legs are more stable than 4, as anyone who has used a 3-legged and a 4-legged step ladder in a yard or orchard can tell you.

  130. more union than civilian.

    Always thought the opposite of civilian was military.

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