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GOP: Ryan reflects Republicans’ revulsion for the poor

Letter by Carol Ann Dedrick, Tacoma on Jan. 26, 2011 at 2:03 pm with 74 Comments »
January 26, 2011 3:02 pm

Paul Ryan’s speech Tuesday night helped me put my finger on the biggest difference between Democrats and Republicans.

Republicans have no faith in the American people.

Need proof? Look no further than Ryan’s rebuttal to President Obama’s State of the Union speech. He said: “This is a future in which we will transform our social safety net into a hammock, which lulls able-bodied people into lives of complacency and dependency.”

According to the world view expressed by Ryan, people who are unemployed and receiving assistance from the government seek no higher goals. People who are hungry and receiving food stamps seek no higher goal. People who are ailing and need medical help seek no higher goal.

It is a dark, cynical and ultimately self-destructive world view. To look at fellow citizens who have fallen on difficult times and see parasites speaks more loudly about the viewer than the viewed.

Ryan, and those who think like him, believe that Americans who have fallen on hard times are freeloaders. I know better. People live up to the expectations set for them. Ryan, as the spokesman, has shown us their expectations.

I’ll side with the Democrats.

Leave a comment Comments → 74
  1. If you think about this statement in YOUR letter, “People live up to the expectations set for them” perhaps you can see the irony.

    Programs that foster dependence and entitlement are not good for our society and they especially are not good for the folks who grow more and more dependent and begin to expect the government to take care of them.

    If we tell people they have to be take care of, they will come to expect it.

  2. People like Paul Ryan demonstrate far more respect for folks who’ve fallen on hard times that those who treat them as if they are helpless and hopeless.

  3. hansgruber says:

    With $3.441 Trillion added to the National Debt since Obama became President, I think I won’t side with the Democrats.

    That’s an increase of 24.46%! Just in the Obama Presidency.

    Under the Harry Reid & Nancy Pelosi show from Jan 2007 to Jan 2011, they (Democrats) added $5.397 Trillion (38.36% of the entire National Debt in 4 years!)

    I’ll side with sanity and fiscal responsibility!

  4. Thank heavens the facts show that people do not live up to Ryan’s (and sozo’s) expectations. people on welfare stay on welfare an average of a little more than three months. People use welfare as a lifeline. Food stamps last a littl;e longer as people try to bring themselves out of poverty. There is no hammock in our safety net. The chronic users of assistance programs have to be involved in training, job seeking and will be taken off assistance if they do not apply themselves. Unfortunately, people with disabilities who need a little more assistance when they take jobs that ahve no health insurance are being ignored by the Republicans in their push to rescind the reforms to healthcare. It is a fact that people with long-term health issues sometimes have to stay on assistance programs if they cannot work at the level to pay for their own insurance. In the past, they could not even get insurance because of pre-existing conditions. Republicans want to push people back on assistance instead of giving them any chance at all of success wit their zeal to eliminate sound health insurance policies.

  5. nwcolorist says:

    The letter reflects the continued misunderstanding of what it means to “help” people.

  6. Concernedfather says:

    There seems to be no shortage of blue Kool-aide.

  7. bobcat1a says:

    America has become an oligarchy with the dominant ideology being: Government of the rich, by the rich (and their surrogates), and for the rich. The Democrats just prefer that they be a little less rich and the scraps for the middle and bottom be a little larger. The Republicans need to replace the elephant with a picture of Marie Antoinette.

  8. JudasEscargot says:

    Did Ryan make a speech? I was watching Bachmann

  9. JudasEscargot says:

    tuddo:

    Don’t worry about sozo. When you are retired from teaching you have your union (read: socialist) pension, medicare, and social security.

    No entitlements.

    I picture a person standing at a TEA Party rally with the sign “Keep the government out of my medicare”

  10. If it was up to Mr Ryan we would have never gone to the Moon, built the interstate highway system, or even the transcontinental railroad. Can anyone tell me what the grand vision for American Mr Ryan has because I could not figure it out?

  11. I listened to Ryan’s speech, also. I do not recall hearing anything about dependency on farm subsidies, corporate tax breaks, sweet heart deals for oil and gas drilling, puny royalties paid to the treasury for mineral extraction. Hep, it’s just the humans sucking at the government’s teat.

  12. hansgruber says: “With $3.441 Trillion added to the National Debt since Obama became President,…”, and, “Under the Harry Reid & Nancy Pelosi show from Jan 2007 to Jan 2011, they (Democrats) added $5.397 Trillion …” “I’ll side with sanity and fiscal responsibility!”

    Let me get this straight. Your saying its President Obama’s fault that 3.441 trillion was added to the National debt since he’s become president, but its Reid & Pelosi’s fault that the national debt grew at record levels under GWB?

    To recognize and side with sanity, one first has to possess it.

  13. The SOTU was an hour and a minute of meaningless “Reaganesque” platitudes about the future and how good we are – nothing of substance. The Republican responses were, likewise, sound and fury meaning nothing.

  14. ItalianSpring says:

    The correct way to say it is that people with brains have a “revulsion for those who CHOOSE to be poor” and then complain about how poor they are. Sheesh.

  15. Mudwhistle_Lightening says:

    sozo says: Programs that foster dependence and entitlement are not good for our society…

    You mean programs like endless corporate bailouts and no-bid contracts for the likes of Haliburton and others? Yes, I would agree those foster government dependence.

  16. Parkland says:

    Carol, when you subsidize a thing, you get more of that thing. There is no exception to this rule. The truth hurts sometimes.

    Because we’re so compassionate, natural selection ended long ago. In fact, the best stock tend to have less offspring than those who would not have been allowed to breed only a few thousand years ago.

    It may be uncomfortable, but while we’re born with equal opportunity, we’re not equal. Some people have zero goals beyond waiting for the government to send them my money. And inconvenient truth.

  17. ….and ItalianSpring makes Carol’s point, “It is a dark, cynical and ultimately self-destructive world view. To look at fellow citizens who have fallen on difficult times and see parasites speaks more loudly about the viewer than the viewed.”

  18. I am not defending the greed displayed by people on the right; it’s shameful all right. So too the greed (and hypocrisy) of those on the left who say all the right words about compassion and sharing the wealth while protecting their wealth.

    And tuddo, I know that not all people who need help remain helpless. I am talking about a very slow, insidious process of becoming more dependent on government, as in Europe. Seeing how the folks there have reacted to losing what they now believe they are entitled to via the government should tell us all something.

    JE once again, you reveal how little you know. I’m not on medicare, not a union member, past or present…well it doesn’t matter, you live inside that wee head of yours with “pictures” of your own making and nothing I say is going to change that. Hope it’s fun in there.

  19. I have been reading the omnibus of sources of St. Francis. He CHOSE “Lady Poverty” as an ascetic discipline that he felt was the best imitation of Christ’s life. I am unaware of any, other than religious mystics, who CHOOSE poverty.

  20. sozo, the percentage of people receiving cash assistance fell to its lowest ratio in 40 years in 2009. Food stamps were third lowest of the past 40 years. The average amount of cash assistance per family was $367 per month. (A person can not afford a hammock on $367) In 2010 there was a slight increase in numbers because of severe job losses, but the number of people on cash assistance continued to fall in 18 states. Unfortunately in Washington State there was a big increase because of huge layoffs in manufacturing in 2008-2009, but those numbers are coming around and there is more hiring by Boeing and others. The facts just never bear out what Republicans say about people relying on welfare. People on welfare are just an easy target for the Republicans, because they know discrimination against minorities and playing up some contrived evil socialist intent by the poor hits an emotional chord with the far-right base, especially in the South.

    All one has to do is point out the facts, but facts are few and far between when talking about this issue, and the far-right base would rather believe the convoluted paranoia of Glen Beck than any sane economic theories, even of the conservative Brookings Institution, where I found these facts and factual support for the declining reliance on government support.

  21. menopaws says:

    I am old enough to remember when Republicans did have a vision of the future for America. When Eisenhower created the school lunch program and the interstate highway system. When men like Howard Baker and Bob Dole worked across the aisle with Democrats to make American a better place. Today, we have a group that is composed of radical right zealots whose philosophy is based on the ignorance of people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann—the Republican answer to an educated, smart, productive Hillary Clinton……..Yep, the morons are in charge and they continue to stroke the violent and dysfunctional for their votes. My husband used to be a Republican, a military man who believed in the Party. He hasn’t voted with them since George Bush Senior. Said he was tired of being preached at by the religious right. So, Mr. Ryan and company are building themselves a base by keeping people in fear of the future. Real patriots aren’t they?

  22. There are hundreds of thousands of examples of what the dependent class has done to the nation. All that needs to be done is to look at the urban areas of this once great country. The demokrat solution? Let’s throw more money at it. The schools, the infra-structure, the housing projects etc.etc. The mantra from the left is “we can’t fix it, so we’ll just continue to throw money at it, just continue to send them their pittance once a month and keep them on the plantation”. Demokrats haven’t learned much over the past 50+ years have they?

  23. frosty, its the rural parts of America that have the highest rates of people on public assistance. If you would ever use facts instead of talking points your comments might sound a little less strident. If you ahven’t been to Salishan recently, please look at what investing in people looks like. Your comments sound like they come out of 1950’s John Birch Society handbooks.

  24. Roncella says:

    Carol Ann, Your very bias letter is disappointing to read. You really need to have some conversation and discussion with folks that could possibly enlighten you and give you another viewpoint on what is actually happening in todays world.

    Paul Ryan is very intelligent and knowledgeable. He is trying to sound an alarm in everyone to warn us all that if the out of control spending is not stopped soon we will all have to suffer the severe consequences in a big way.

    He also gave some hope in that its still not to late to correct the mis-direction that Obama, Reid, Pelosi, and the dems. in Congress have taken the Country.

    Please read this very short statement by a very great past leader, Thomas Jefferson, when he stated,

    ” A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have”.

  25. nwcolorist says:

    There is an assumption made by the letter writer, and all serious leftists, that there can be no hope or vision for the nation without government leadership and control. They believe that if government isn’t looking after the poor, then all is lost.

    Good grief. How ever did this country become the most prosperous nation on earth? The formative foundation for our prosperity came during the19th century with the opening of the West. Between the Civil War and World War I the nation grew at an annual rate of 3%. How did we ever manage that with no government welfare programs to help the poor?

  26. roncella has the picture in focus.Too many other commenters don,t have a clue as to what is really going on.Afret, as far as going to the moon,how has that helped the economy?I would like to see all the money spent on these adventures published.You will never see that happen because it will point out how badly the taxpayers money is managed!

  27. tuddo, your reference to Salishan is about as relevent as a speck on an elephant’s butt. You fail to mention much larger areas of the country such as Detroit, large parts of Chicago, L.A., Philadelphia, Cleveland and many other metro areas that are nothing more than vacant ghettos. When Cabrini Green was built in Chicago, people were saying the same thing you are saying, “oh, look! we’ve revitalized the neighborhood!” How long did that last? Give Salishan a few more years then come back and tell me what a success it has been. The long standing policy of providing “free” and government assisted housing has proved an old axium, that is; that unless you buy something with money that you earned, it will not be taken care of and will soon go to rot! No one can convince me otherwise, no matter how you try to twist the facts.

  28. JudasEscargot says:

    “JE once again, you reveal how little you know. I’m not on medicare, not a union member, past or present…well it doesn’t matter, you live inside that wee head of yours with “pictures” of your own making and nothing I say is going to change that. Hope it’s fun in there.”

    sozo – “40 years of teaching” is just a little telltale. I suppose you could have spent that 40 years in a private school and avoided the WEA. That would have spoken a mouthful for your stand on women’s right to choose.

    You do the math. If you are not there, it is close around the corner. Walk your talk. Refuse medicare in the next few years.

    I do note you didn’t deny social security. Took the 62 year old amount?

    You see, it’s always easy for you to point the finger at the less fortunate as being the problem with out government debt, but no one forces you to use the system.

  29. JudasEscargot says:

    I’d love to just once hear a Conservative voice a solution to low income housing, food stamps, welfare and such. They complain about it, but don’t have a solution other than “get a job” which is ridiculous as they love to point out the unemployment rate from the other side of their mouths.

  30. JudasEscargot says:

    “Afret, as far as going to the moon,how has that helped the economy?”

    The small mindedness of a Conservative.

    All the people related to NASA – not just direct employees, but vendors to NASA – earned paychecks and spent money on goods and services in the US.

    Meanwhile, we learned more about the closest rock to our planet.

  31. JudasEscargot says:

    I wonder how many NASA projects provided jobs in the Puget Sound region.

  32. JudasEscargot says:

    “Between the Civil War and World War I the nation grew at an annual rate of 3%. How did we ever manage that with no government welfare programs to help the poor? ”

    A huge working poor that kept the wealthy in the manner they were used to.

    How about the success of the post WWII America and it’s middle class growth? We had government programs (GI Bill was the biggie) that launched people in to good paying jobs and provided a consumer base for product sales.

  33. “All the people related to NASA – not just direct employees, but vendors to NASA – earned paychecks and spent money on goods and services in the US.”

    That is how the defense industry works too.

  34. JudasEscargot says:

    Roll_On:

    The difference is that the Defense industry builds things to kill mankind. Sort of a “death panel” approach to industry.

    How about taking NASA and Defense spending and putting it into incentives to drive innovation in power and manufacturing of products that take mankind into a positive direction?

  35. BlaineCGarver says:

    In the first place, the Letter Writer clearly didn’t listen to or re-read Ryan’s speech. Conservatives want a safety net. We don’t want this multi-generational Welfair Plantation that has kept the poor enslaved and trapped in poverty. If you are not aware of this, you are a socialist, if you are, you are a conservative

  36. BlaineCGarver says:

    And BTW, TNT, I thought you supported a kinder, gentler commentary. This letter and others surly do NOT reflect a moderate language directed at Conservatives. Snarky is one thing, but direct name calling, I thought, was out….guess that’s politically oriented, as well.

  37. JE, I don’t have a problem with that.

  38. Fibonacci says:

    Roncella
    You are such a hoot. “You rea;lly need to have some conversations and discussions (is there a difference?) with folks that could enllighten you”. Is that the ultimate in arrogance or what? So, CONSERVATIVES are enlightened. and people are only liberal because they have not been ENLIGHTENED?

    Maybe YOU should practice what you preach and listen to more than one news source. Faux News does not represent mainstream America. Neither does far left news, most of us are in the middle.

  39. BlaineCGarver, please point me to the articles written by conseratives who substantiate the multigenerational welfare plantations that you talk about. The conservative studies that I have read show that there is no such thing and pont to conservative-led chjanges brought about by a Republican Congress and Democratic president that changed that. Public assistance is at a 40-year low and the percent of people on assistance is at a 40-year low. If you can substantiate anything Ryan said in his speech, I would love to see it, and so would all the fact checkers out there who say his speech was full of errors, misstatements and the same old fabrications the far right and Tea Partiers (not conservatives) have used to vilify the poor. There are no multigenerational plantations, except in the racist mind who use “plantation” as a code word for Blacks who live by the mercy of their masters. I thought I would never see such terms used in a NW publication as I see all the time in the very racist South. I am appalled.

  40. Roncella says:

    Fibonacci, I was commenting on the letter from Carol Ann. She got a message from Paul Ryan, that he never made in his speech, after the Presidents State of the Union speech.

    You could also could use a bit of enlightment about what you believe and think is true and actually happening.

    By the way I have core beliefs and listen to many different news sources, before I make a decision about anything. How about you Fibonacci ?.

  41. We’ve all heard the right wing mantra about how Obama and his minions forced Health Care Reform through the Congress, but where is the right wing now that the GOP has given one person (Paul Ryan) the sole power to set spending limits for the Federal Government?

  42. JudasEscargot says:

    “Roll_On says:
    January 27, 2011 at 1:10 pm
    JE, I don’t have a problem with that.”

    ::::::marks day on calendar in red and dies of heart attack::::::::

    LOL

  43. JudasEscargot says:

    Roll_On:

    Now that I had a little fun with your comment, let’s probe the issue.

    Our economic recovery depends on one thing – a middle class with money to spend. That is what creates demand in the marketplace. Until something takes place that triggers this, we will wallow in the mire (credit Jim Morrison).

    So, we know that the Bush tax cuts have been in place for close to 10 years and the signal has been raised that they are in place for another 2 years, yet…..no sign of jobs. Why? Because that was a false equivilancy from the beginning. Demand creates need, need creates jobs.

    People are willing to invest in alternate energy, if they can afford it. I’d buy a hybrid in a heartbeat, if it were affordable or there were incentives. Considering that the business community won’t provide those incentives, what is left? The Government. Yet, you cannot continue to provide incentives and cut taxes – it’s the proberbial double dip that created the debt we have now and will have in the future.

    When I see business step up to the plate – on a large scale – and provide jobs on speculation, I’ll say there is no need for government intervention. Meanwhile, history demonstrates that the only thing that ignites business is government.

  44. BlaineCGarver says:

    Tuddo: So many Straw Men, so little time. As briefly as possible, what am I wrong about? The war on poverty has sunk trillions into the poor man’s plight, and the war is still lost. I’m not using code, I’m flat out saying it: Urban Blacks and other poor are being kept poor and in project housing because the rules for assistance does not make allowance for continuing a little aid after they find a low paying job. Often, the assistance pays much more than the wherewithal of a minimal living wage job. You’re not “appalled” at what I say, you’re mad because I’m right.

  45. Judas, your preoccupation with others is curious and your deductive reasoning is lousy.

    Anyone who has followed any of my commentary here knows that I have no problem with federal aid to those in need. What I do have a problem with a federal government that assumes responsibility AND power over things they needn’t be involved in.

  46. the3rdpigshouse says:

    WOW!! – Carol, you should maybe review how much “OH-Bummer” and the previously democrat controlled Congress have not done for improving the economy or the job market before getting on their bus to dependency!!

  47. BlaineCGarver, assistance does not stop when a person gets a low paying job. Medical and food stamps may continue for a while until wages reach a certain level. In some states where the minimum wage is extremely low, cash assistance may continue, also. In most states, medical care may continue, although that is a state decision. Public assistance averages $367 per family per month. Cash assistance may continue when a person takes a part time job, even at a high wage if the person continues in job training for a higher skilled position. The system is not perfect, but the reforms certainly are not a “hammock” for the poor, and do not keep people on a “plantation” as you describe it. That is why the average length of stay on assistance is just over three months. It gives people a safety net but prods them out of dependency, also.

    I agree that in many states, minimum wage is not a “living wage”, and even our lowest paid military families often rely on food coupons to make a go of it.

    Housing assistance is a different subject and is mired in all kinds of rules. Salishan is a good example of the way of the future, with a mix of rent assistance, ownership assistance, housing sold on the open market and other mixed kinds of housing.

    It is not a perfect system, but it is neither a

    BTW, you are stuck in the 60’s using “war on poverty”, a term that ceased to have any meaning in the 1980’s and Clinton’s terms. Welfare reform did away with AFDC and instituted TANF which requires job placement and job training to stay on assistance.

  48. “Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

    But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.” -Frederic Bastiat The Law

  49. ItalianSpring says:

    Even when I all CAPS the key words, the libs refuse to read and comprehend them. There is no hope for them and their worship of ignorance and the absence of logic is killing this country.

  50. Sincere – as an old computer scientist I can tell you it is a fact that the explosion in the growth of computers in everyday life was a direct result of the Apollo program and other NASA programs. Aside from that what about GPS and the internet, these are all a result of our government’s investment. If it was up to Mr. Ryan we would have these things either along with interstate highways.

  51. It’s Paul Ryan, a conservative Republican Carol. What else do you need to know?

  52. Thank you so much, Ms Dedrick….you put it so well.

  53. How about the success of the post WWII America and it’s middle class growth?

    Aside from the fact that all international competitors were rebuilding from the war, FDR’s programs, notably Social Security, were a very large factor in the growth of the middle class.

  54. I’ll side with sanity and fiscal responsibility!

    OK…..fine……but since NEITHER Party is offering that, why are you aligning with the Republicans?

  55. letsworkitout says:

    Why side with either party? I mean, really? I see no logical reason to have any faith in them. They no longer represent the people, so why support them? By people, I mean more than the old farts who complain all day and suck in the talk shows like stogies.

  56. Roncella says:

    CarolAnn, Here is another great comment from Thomas Jefferson,

    ” I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them “.

    Its really anazing that so many years ago Jefferson saw a need to give advice that fits perfectly in the year 2011.

    Maybe he realized that the growth of Liberlism, progressives, socialists, would eventually weaken America and lower the standard of living for all Americans.

  57. JudasEscargot says:

    Roncella says:
    January 28, 2011 at 9:25 am
    CarolAnn, Here is another great comment from Thomas Jefferson,

    ” I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them “.

    From wiki montecello: “if we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.” – Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 29 November 1802[1]

    Note: This passage has often been mis-quoted as, “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” Ford and L&B have also slightly mis-transcribed the original text as, “If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.”

    Why do Conservatives persist in misquoting Jefferson?

  58. JudasEscargot says:

    For those who want accurate quotes from Jefferson –

    http://wiki.monticello.org/

  59. JudasEscargot says:

    “sozo says:
    January 27, 2011 at 3:19 pm
    Judas, your preoccupation with others is curious”

    It is the means of finding their hypocrisy

  60. Some people will go to any length to justify socialism. The truth is simple for most of us, socialism doesn’t work! Just take a look at Europe (and now us). Reference all of the trivia that you can find to fortify your position but the truth speaks louder than all of your quotations.

  61. Yes, frosty, we know you don’t like socialism. Do you think socialism is everything that comes from government, or just the things you don’t think you directly benefit from?

    I noticed Rand Paul put out his list of government services to eliminate, and the agencies that deal with public food safety would be replaced with industry policing itself. No more truth in labels, and a lot more Salmonella. Every consumer will need to either grow their own food or test their own food. Food safety is just so socialistic! And forget about suing, since tort reform would limit or eliminate your ability to get relief if your food cayses you harm.

  62. Oh yes, JE hypocrisy. You never did point out where you see hypocrisy in my commentary.

  63. JudasEscargot says:

    Sozo:

    As a matter of fact, I did, but you go into denial mode and that is supposed to mean that my observations are wrong, which is basically what you are doing when you pretend that I didn’t cite it originally.

  64. JudasEscargot says:

    I chuckle at the use of the word “socialism” as if it were the boogeyman or Satan.

    A dictionary would do wonders for some.

  65. JudasEscargot says:

    Frosty – do you like the Green Bay Packers?

  66. I’m old Judas, refresh my memory please.

  67. The truth is simple for most of us

    So frosty……when did “most of us” select you as their representative?

    The truth is simple for the simple.

  68. Roncella says:

    Frosty, You have to understand that most liberals and progressives are very confortable with socialism.

    They are just a few steps away from the beliefs of socialists, so they walk hand in hand one defending the other and all working for the same end result.

  69. I notice an interesting pattern with our resident expert, Judas. He just quietly slips away when he’s confronted with a question or comment that poses a problem for him.

    Judas, you chose to make a personal assault and I am asking you for an example of my hypocrisy. You claim you already explained it, but I can find no explanation. Please, in the name of conflict resolution, tell me in what way I have been hypocritical?

  70. Afret ascribes – “Sincere – as an old computer scientist I can tell you it is a fact that the explosion in the growth of computers in everyday life was a direct result of the Apollo program and other NASA programs. Aside from that what about GPS and the internet, these are all a result of our government’s investment. If it was up to Mr. Ryan we would have these things either along with interstate highways.”

    Now the flip side of your assertion…buy a GPS unit and tell us where it’s made..

  71. Tuddo, most of what the demokrats call ” essential services”, ie; food safety, food stamps, and various kinds of free gratas offerings to the herd can and should be eliminated. I’ve paid into my Social Security and Medicare most of my life so that is not a “government handout. You dems need to learn the differnce between “earned entitlements” and welfare.

  72. beerboy, when I use the term “most of us”, I’m talking about those of us who kicked Pelosi to the curb and threw out a bunch of demokrats. O.K.?

  73. Judas, please enlighten me. What does the Green Bay Packers have to do with the subject at hand? To be honest, I don’t care for professional sports of any kind, I prefer college football, “GO BUCKEYES”!

  74. So, frosty, you believe the illusion that Social Security and Medicare is not a “handout” like unemployment compensation or almost any other government program just because you benefit from it? The healthcare bill is a lot less “socialistic” than Social Security or Medicare, because it is not a government run program. It requires p[eople to buy private insurance, and a bigger percentage of the medical services will be paid for by those private payments, not government income than is true in Medicare.

    Socialism does have a precise meaning when you talk about it in political sense. It just doesn’t have a real meaning when commenters use it to mean being against any government program that they don’t like, but for others. Our highway system and other government services are just as soicalistic, in your terms, as any other govement program that you are against. However, neither the highway system nor the healthcare bill meet the real definitiion of socialism where the means of production and the means of distribution is owned collectively or by a central government.

    To me, the important question of the moment is whether we continue to lose our freedoms to the corporate elite and bow down to corporate tyrrany where we don’t get a vote, or whether we make sure we continue to have a voice and vote about our lives and who controls them buy having a strong government, by the people. We lost our voice in medical care long ago to insurance companies, and we have only the power to sue if we disagree with their secret decisions and control over our bodies and our health. Republicans want to take the power to sue away from us, too, so we would have no vote or say at all. We have to turn over all our decisions to coprporate health insurance bureacracies. That is how we are losing our freedoms, not by government socialism.

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