Letters to the Editor

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MILITARY: Marine Corps didn’t deserve slight

Letter by James M. Lien, Tacoma on Dec. 3, 2010 at 10:51 am with 72 Comments »
December 3, 2010 2:19 pm

Re: “Marines need to man up” (letter, 11-30).

As a former Marine, it made me mad to read this letter about the Marine Corps and the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Those who are not serving in the armed services or have not served should their mouth closed.

The Marine Corps has a great history of fighting for our country and to have someone degrade the corps is sickening.

I bet the letter writer never served in the military.

Leave a comment Comments → 72
  1. Roncella says:

    I am Grateful to all our Troops serving World Wide. We are very fortunate to have the quality of men and women williing to serve their Country where ever needed.

    The Libs/Progressives never stop trying to push their social programing. They force their agenda on the Military against the wishes of the folks serving.

  2. beerBoy says:

    ron – the military serves the civilian government, not the other way around.

  3. Murigen says:

    ron – you seem to think that only conservatives serve in the military. Well, you are wrong.

  4. Roncella says:

    Murigen, I realize there are alot of different folks currently serving in the Military.

    There are liberals, Conservatives, Dems.,Republs., Straight and Gay and Lesbian, many different Races, and folks with many different Religious beliefs all serving in the Military.

    let the Military set the Standards they will serve under and obey. Do not
    force civilian social programing on the brave folks serving their Country willingly.

  5. fbergford says:

    I feel your pain James, as a veteran I too get offended when people talk sh*t about the military. I find it very annoying that people who have never volunteered to serve in the military, voice “their opinion” on matters that they do not know about.

    Why do you think we lost Vietnam…civilians tried running the war thousands of miles away in DC and didn’t listen to the troops actually fighting the war. We hardly ever lost a battle but we lost the war because of too much civilian involvement.

  6. i heard the same thing about integrating the armed forces when I was a child. Turned out the bigots in the services were wrong then, too. Just because I served 30 years (12 active) in the military does not give me any more or any less right to voice my opinion or influence political decisions about this issue. And, this is a policy decision, not a tactical one. Policy is made by civilians in this country. The letter writer is either trying to support a military coup or doesn’t have the slightest idea what the Constitution is all about.

  7. old_benjamin says:

    You don’t tug on Superman’s cape
    You don’t spit into the wind
    You don’t pull the mask off an ‘ole Lone Ranger
    And you don’t mess around with Jim

  8. sumner402 says:

    roncella, the numbers are in, across the board you are on the wrong side of this issue, just like all other issues.

  9. sumner402 says:

    Fact of the matter is the military by it’s very nature is a ‘social experiment’.

  10. beerBoy says:

    fbergford says: Why do you think we lost Vietnam…civilians tried running the war thousands of miles away in DC and didn’t listen to the troops actually fighting the war. We hardly ever lost a battle but we lost the war because of too much civilian involvement.

    Again…..the Constitution mandates that civilians are in charge of the military. You may feel the politicians made the wrong decisions in that war but, as someone sworn to to defend the Constitution, you must suck it up and accept those decisions as a member of the military.

  11. The Military oath is to “support and defend the constitution from all enemies forgiven and domestic”

    What fbergford is talking about is when the elected and appointed officials overstep the line between civilian control and military leadership. If you want a good example of this I suggest the book “The Last Battle” by Ralph Wetterhahn.

  12. Murigen says:

    ron – except it’s not up to the military to set the standards. It’s up to our government to set the standards our military will be governed by. Those standards will change, change will be resisted, and finally change will occur. Every branch must conform to those standards.

  13. Back when we still had a draft the Military, especially the Army, was really a social experiment that mixed young men (and a few ladies) of all races and classes from all over the country into a single cohesive unit.

  14. Publico says:

    Sorry James, but you are wrong. I served and have 248 combat missions in my logbook. I support the repeal of DADT. Admiral Mullin and Sec. Gates are correct.
    How many of you, who are opposed to the repeal, are anxious to be known and remembered in the same category as those who opposed integration of the armed forces?
    It is the same thing. It is “All men are created equal.”

  15. First_Lefty says:

    The ones that are making gay men and women be closeted are the social programmers.

    As usual, Roncella has everything upside down and backwards.

    Gay men and women should be able to live their lives openly, as any heterosexual does in the military.

  16. First_Lefty says:

    if anyone really wants an education about the military and homosexuality, just google “Perry Watkins”.

    Perry was openly gay when he entered the military in 1968 and served openly gay – to the point of entertaining in drag. Later some genius decided Perry needed to be drummed out. That cost the US a sizeable chunk of change.

    Perry was a fine man and I’m proud to say was my neighbor, my friend and my children were safer around him than a kid’s sports icon from the North End who was known to have molested kids, but people turned their head.

  17. patriot62 says:

    If they repeal DADT then they need to have co-ed showers. Well actually they just need showers, and latrines. They need not worry about having different billeting either. Everyone can sleep anywhere. If they are going to repeal it then they need to repeal everything. I noticed the chief of the Navy did not complain about the repeal, wonder why? I hope that those in the military will not choose to re-up and seek work in the private sector. I hope that then we will have an entire military force made up of homosexuals, lesbians, and transgendered persons. The 1% of the entire population of the U.S. that seems to affect so many others with their lack of moral character. Since they LIED to enter the military.

  18. patriot, if you are hoping the good men and women in the services do not reenlist, then you are not much of a patriot, are you? The survey specifically asked about showers and latrines, and service members said it doesn’t make any difference. When I was living in barracks, there were several known gay soldiers, and it didn’t make any difference to any of us. You might want to have your little psychological issue looked at if it is causing you fear or shame to be seen with others in the showers.

  19. sumner402 says:

    Way to take the grown up, rational, reasoned road patriot.

  20. beerBoy says:

    Again my post disappears, yet patriot’s slight against all those who serve in the Navy remains.

  21. sumner402 says:

    There was no reason for your post to be removed!

  22. It seems quite random to me, the removal of this post or that; probably just a gesture to suggest monitoring.

    Regardless of everything said here, I believe that folks serving in combat should have their opinions about troop morale, etc. weighted.

    Armchair politicians (which means eveyone posting here) have very limited knowledge, despite the fact that many of them act as if they have “the” facts that no one else has.

    To all the troops in the trenches, my sincere thanks!

  23. Roncella says:

    Sumner your defense of beerBoy is always admirable. However beerBoy can take good care of himself without your help.

  24. patriot, one more thing about your little anti-American, anti-military rant. The first part of “don’t ask, don’t tell” is that the military was not supposed to ask about sexual orientation. No gay person lied to get into the military. Unfortunately the services did ask and did pressure gays to either lie and say they were not at a gay bar on their private time or did not have a partner, etc. As Mullen stated, that put gays into an untenable situation and forced the entire military to become complicit in unethical behavior. That was not supposed to have happened. The DA part of DADT is one of the main reasons why the policy isn’t working and needs to be repealed.

  25. sozo, you do know that the members of the armed services did have their opinion wighed, and that is what is being discussed right now in the hearings. 70% of the members of the services think the military would do just fine if gays could serve openly, or they just don’t think it would make any difference, or they just don’t care about the issue. So, its no big deal except to a few. The situation was much more hardened about integration of the races, with about 70% saying the armed services should not be integrated and that it would harm the services. However, Truman did it anyway, and we did just fine. Getting member’s opinions and making the right decision for the country are two separate things. It is a policy decision, not a popularity contest.

  26. Concernedfather says:

    tuddo says:
    December 4, 2010 at 6:39 am
    “When I was living in barracks,..gay…, …it didn’t make any difference …to be seen with others in the showers.”

    Okay, thanks for sharing.

  27. sumner402 says:

    Regardless of everything said here, I believe that folks serving in combat should have their opinions about troop morale, etc. weighted.

    Their opinions were ‘weighted’, that was one of the hoops your party insisted on, now that the results are in, your party doesn’t like them.
    70% of the active duty say they wouldn’t care if it were repealed.

    What more do you people want?
    Keep asking until you get the results you want?

  28. Concernedfather, you are welcome. Did you have a comment or are you just happy to read my post?

  29. ‘70% say ending DADT won’t cause serious problems’. I do believe that is what is known as a landslide.

  30. fanciladi says:

    Interesting…I’m not able to post on this letter as I wasn’t able to post on the original letter…doesn’t like my comments for some reason…seems I can post on other subjects…must be someone reading as I write and saying no!

    I try it again and I get the “duplicate comment’ message……..interesting….

  31. bobcat1a says:

    You can’t use facts to move someone who is determined to ignore contrary facts. It didn’t work with slavery (it took a war); it didn’t work with integration of the military (it took military regulations); it didn’t work with civil rights in the 60’s and 70’s (it took a law and sometimes troops), it won’t work with DADT. These people only respect and bend to force of law. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.”

  32. fanciladi says:

    Well, BeerBoy…my posts won’t even show up….at least yours will show!

  33. beerBoy says:

    fanci – I’ve had that problem at times too. Don’t know whether to take it personally or just chalk it up to the issues with the TNT site.

  34. fanciladi says:

    BB, it seems when ever I mention a couple of things it won’t post…no bad words or personal attacks…weird or personal…LOL…maybe because I mention my son!

  35. fanciladi says:

    Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that! This is the message I get when I try to post something again that didn’t post!

  36. fanciladi says:

    Well, this posted…weird…there are 3 words that I write that don’t seem to post however I write them!

  37. Publico says:

    The current reading and posting mechanism that the TNT has decided to use is the pits. I have to log in every time I want to write something and half those times it loses what I have written.
    The reply function is the pits. The reply should include the comment about which one was replying.
    I like the way the Gannett papers have their system set up with the exception of the 1000 character limit.
    Wouldn’t it be nice to have a “Today’s Paper” choice in the menu too.
    Otherwise, TNT, we love you.

  38. For those spouting about “70% of the members of the services think the military would do just fine if gays could serve openly, or they just don’t think it would make any difference, or they just don’t care about the issue” …it’s a little skewed.

    That is 70% of the respondents to the online poll. The percentage of total respondents to the poll was 28%, approx 116,000 troops/respondents according to media reports.

    So 70% of 116,000 think it’s okay, won’t make a difference or don’t care if gays serve openly. Hardly a ringing endorsement. But let’s at least get the numbers in the right context .

    Personally it doesn’t matter to me either way. During my 22 yrs in, i showered, ate chow, worked with and slept in the same berthing at the same time and alongside known and openly gay troops. Was i “ogled” during that time, possibly. Did i really give a crap, no. Nor was i “converted”.

    DADT is going to get rescinded whether you like it or not. . Those in uniform either lead, follow, or get out. It’s pretty simple.

  39. “Why do you think we lost Vietnam?” That misinformed, media fed LIE, that most of the public believes, still after all these years raises my blood pressure to the boiling point!

    Nixon began his “Vietnamization” policy in 1969, with the intention of turning the war over to them. We finally withdrew, HONORABLY by the way, in 1973. Continued support was denied by a Congress facing a fed up American public and the South was quite simply overrun in 1975..Just over two years AFTER we withdrew.

    People need to learn the facts. Like that will ever happen.

  40. tuddo, I know that service people were surveyed, though I understand combat troops were not included? I could be wrong about that. I have no dispute with gays serving in the military. As for DADT, I simply believe that those who “live the life” are the only ones whose opinions I’m interested in.

    My post was intended to reflect on the presumption demonstrated by some commenters here. Tiresome noise.

  41. JudasEscargot says:

    old_benjamin says:
    December 3, 2010 at 4:45 pm
    You don’t tug on Superman’s cape
    You don’t spit into the wind
    You don’t pull the mask off an ‘ole Lone Ranger
    And you don’t mess around with Jim

    Well Ben, you blew it again. “Big Jim” met his match with a “Country Boy by name of Willy McCoy, but down home they called him Slim”

    “and when the cuttin’ was done the only part that wasn’t bloody was the soles of the big man’s (Jim) feet”

    As Croce said at the end – “yeah, Big Jim met his match, found out where it’s at, hustlin’ people strange to you”

  42. JudasEscargot says:

    Dcr – if you call 50,000 Americans dead and a war debt and the insuing inflation “winning”…….

    By the way, North Vietnam is communist today.

  43. JudasEscargot says:

    Patriot – you are obviously ignorant of the story about Perry Watkins (among other things)

  44. JudasEscargot says:

    In My Country, My Right To Serve, Perry Watkins–an openly homosexual U.S. Army sergeant first class–said, “People have asked me, `How have you managed to tolerate all that discrimination you had to deal with in the military?’ My immediate answer to them was, `Hell, I grew up black. Give me a break. I mean, to be discriminated against because I was gay was a joke.’ I mean, `Oh, you don’t like me because I’m gay? Excuse me, I’m sorry, but you’ve got a problem.'”

  45. JudasEscargot says:

    A great Perry story –

    At the “Lumberman” Christmas banquet in 1982 (a group known as “hoo hoo”), Watkins did his “Tina Turner” impersonation with the Diane Lemoine Dance Troupe who entertained.

    Drunken men who were close to the stage were reaching up trying to touch Perry’s legs and buttocks while he was doing “Tina”

    At the end of the performance, when the troupe took a bow, Watkins pulled his wig off and the “Hoo Hoo” crowd booed……

    They were probably a little upset that they had been hitting on a man.

  46. sumner402 says:

    I know that service people were surveyed, though I understand combat troops were not included?

    ALL troops are ‘combat’ troops.
    I see that you and your buddie john mcCain are desperately seeking a way to justify your fear and hate for gays.

    You both need to just ‘man up’ and admit you simply do not support freedom and equality for all Americans.

  47. Let them service, they make great point men.

  48. JudasEscargot says:

    Howie says:
    December 5, 2010 at 9:46 am
    Let them service, they make great point men.

    A position that take more courage than most.

  49. Dcr, we lost Viet Nam because the politicians and senior military leaders did not know how to fight and insurrection. Which is still the problem we have in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    JE – There is no North or South Vietnam today. There is just one country, Viet Nam, and it is all communist.

  50. spottss1 says:

    According to the testimony I heard before the senate armed services committee only 18% of the military responded to the survey. I don’t know why so few were surveyed but hardly validates a 70% favorable response. What is the opinion of the other 82% of military personnel?

  51. Publico says:

    Since when do the troops set policy? Maybe they should vote on which airplane to buy next or which firearm or which battlefield tactic to use. They could vote on food, uniforms and maybe even when to engage the enemy.
    Did I make the point obvious enough?
    The troops do not vote on WHETHER to make the change or not. They can be asked if it makes any difference and they said no by a margin of 70%.

  52. “JudasEscargot says:
    DECEMBER 5, 2010 AT 9:38 AM
    A great Perry story -”

    “First_Lefty says:
    DECEMBER 3, 2010 AT 9:40 PM
    if anyone really wants an education about the military and homosexuality, just google “Perry Watkins”.
    Perry was openly gay when he entered the military in 1968 and served openly gay – to the point of entertaining in drag. Later some genius decided Perry needed to be drummed out. That cost the US a sizeable chunk of change.
    Perry was a fine man and I’m proud to say was my neighbor, my friend and my children were safer around him than a kid’s sports icon from the North End who was known to have molested kids, but people turned their head.”

    Is JudasEscargot defending First_Lefty’s neighbor? LOL

  53. JudasEscargot says:

    WAMDT – do you think Perry only knew his neighbors? Do you think Lefty is the only person to know about Perry Watkins? Do you think that Lefty and I are the only people that know how to use a search engine on the internet?

    And finally…….DEFENDING??????????
    What is there to defend about Perry Watkins??????

    Some people need to get out more and learn about their communities.

  54. JudasEscargot says:

    “JE – There is no North or South Vietnam today. There is just one country, Viet Nam, and it is all communist. ”

    Good point xring!

    Not only is there no South Vietnam, but we didn’t stop the spread of communism as advertised.

  55. JudasEscargot says:

    Since I responded to WAMDT’s comment, am I DEFENDING his neighbor?

  56. ItalianSpring says:

    James- I’d place my bet on your side. With libs concerning the miitary, it’s never about WINNING anything, much less any war. Instead, the military is a petri dish for societal experimentation, unless a conservative or a republican is POTUS. In those cases they just “loathe” the military because it is used to WIN wars. Usually libs only like it because it is funded soley by tax money from the rich, is not run by votes and committees (think fascism), and it is ultimately under the control of bureaucrats, most of which are lovers of tyranny. Dun.

  57. sumner402 says:

    unless a conservative or a republican is POTUS. In those cases they just “loathe” the military because it is used to WIN wars.

    Name one war a conservative POTUS has won.

  58. Ispring – I would hardly call Truman a liberal, but he did inegrate the Armed Services via an executive order.

  59. fbergford says:

    Do you guys really think any of your comments will change the outcome of this policy? If you think so, I would love to laugh in your face! You live in and around Tacoma Wa, the policy making is 3,000 miles east in the “other Washington”. You post your two cents in the comment section on the TNT website, spewing nonsense, trying to rip on people who do not have the same political view as yourself. None of you are in politics, you have absolutley no clue what goes on behind close doors in DC…none of you know what type of deals are being made…it’s comical to read your posts! Because some of you really believe that you are “doing your part”! It’s very amusing to me and I thank all of you who post ridiculous stuff on here…I too get caught up in the hoopla every once in awhile, but at least I know, the stuff I post on here won’t change the outcome!

  60. Name one war a conservative POTUS has won.

    Reagan won Grenada after he withdraw from Beruit…..

  61. BlaineCGarver says:

    TNT, thank you so much for once again deleting all my comments… You are so clearly biased towards the liberal side, it makes me wonder about your news coverage.

  62. coldone says:

    Support to the DoD Comprehensive Review Working Group Analyzing the Impact of Repealing “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”
    Volume 1: Findings From the Surveys November 2010

    Figure 1 Expected Impact of DADT Repeal Across the Main Subject Areas

    Unit Cohesion
    Negative 27% Positive 19%

    Effectiveness‐Combat Deployed
    Negative 35% Positive 12%

    Effectiveness‐Non‐combat Deployed
    Negative 20% Positive 17%

    Readiness
    Negative 22% Positive 7%

    Morale
    Negative 28% Positive 5% Don’t Know 11%

    Retention
    Negative 24% Positive 4% Don’t Know 11%

    The rest of the percentages to equal 100% are Neutral.
    “..Note that neutral is the sum of “no effect” and “equally as positively as negatively” responses and that for retention, positive responses were indications that the Service member would stay longer and negative responses were indications that the Service member would leave sooner…”

  63. coldone says:

    Sen. JOHN MCCAIN (R-Ariz.):
    “… I’m troubled by the fact that this report only represents the input of 28 percent of the force who received the questionnaire – that’s only six percent of the force at large…”

    Six percent (6%) of the force at large.

    “…”Lies, damned lies, and statistics” is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent’s point…”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

  64. beerBoy says:

    BCG – I’ve been having lots of comments deleted too. Are you suggesting that that is because of the “TNT liberal bias”?

  65. JudasEscargot says:

    beer – dont’ tell Blaine. it’s too much fun watching the rant

  66. sumner402 says:

    Reagan won Grenada after he withdraw from Beruit…..

    Grenada! LOL!!

  67. bBoy, Grenada was hardly a police action let alone a war.

  68. beerBoy says:

    test

  69. beerBoy says:

    funny…..I can’t post the details of the barracks bombing

  70. beerBoy says:

    fanciladi says: Well, this posted…weird…there are 3 words that I write that don’t seem to post however I write them!

    It appears that the TNT has banned certain words from this thread. It would be nice if they would inform us what is verboten.

  71. sumner402 says:

    Good luck on that, they have secret list of banned words, that changes as much as aislander history book.

  72. bBoy – seems there are a lot of us having problems posting.

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