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RELIGION: U.S. not ‘meant to be a Christian nation’

Letter by Ted Olinger, Vaughn on Sep. 30, 2010 at 4:51 pm with 66 Comments »
October 1, 2010 9:12 am

Re: “U.S. based on Christian principles” (letter, 9-29).

The writer states that America “was meant to be a Christian nation” and that he would have a “problem” with a non-Christian president or one who would defer to the U.S. Constitution rather than “his deeply held religious beliefs.”

What kind of Christian president does he want? Methodist? Baptist? Mormon? And once that’s settled, doesn’t it follow that everyone in Congress should share that single faith? And of course the military to defend the faith wherever a threat arises, and the judiciary to enforce it whenever a nonbeliever is found.

Western civilization has already tried this experiment, and much of our history is written in blood because of it. America was meant to be an enlightened republic, designed to survive the trials of history, not repeat them. The proof is in the Establishment Clause of the document that created the nation.

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  1. There is no doubt that if the founding fathers were muslim or something close to it, libs would have no problem shouting that the US WAS meant to be a muslim nation. To them it’s all about getting God out of everything. And now the lib tweak of the day: Intelligent Design. Begin.

  2. “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21).

  3. Roncella says:

    Ted, Have you ever noticed that our money has In God We Trust on it ?Have

    you forgot that our founding fathers were all christian.

    Our Constitution has more in common with Christian principles than Muslim or the Koran.

    Ted thats nothing to be ashamed of. We do have freedom of Religion in America so all can follow any Religion they want to.

  4. Is this the action of a “Christian nation”{?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101001/hl_nm/us_usa_guatemala_experiment

  5. @roncella. note that our money does NOT say “In Jesus Christ We Trust.”

    and you are absolutely incorrect that the founding fathers were all christian. while it is fair to say that most of the founding fathers believed in a supreme creator (and remember, this is during the late 1700s, when despite the Age of Enlightenment there was much less of a distinction between the natural and supernatural), many rejected out of hand the divinity of Christ, or that he is the Savior.

    last I heard, that is a principal requirement of the Christian faith as described in the New Testament.

    you should read up on it. it is a fascinating time.

  6. aislander says:

    There is no doubt that the Founders wanted no specific religion to be imposed on the nation, but also no doubt (based on their own words) that they wanted the country to be Christian in nature. We ARE a Christian nation that has a secular government designed to encourage religious expression, not be an adversary of it. That has been perverted in the last several decades…

  7. shadowsdad says:

    I agree with Ted. Just because Christianity happens to be the majority Religion in this country does not mean that we are a Christian nation. I am tired of all the Religious B.S. that is being preached as truth around the world and is making our planet an unpleasant place to live. Everything that you and I and Joe Shmo know about religion has been learned from other HUMAN BEINGS. There is not one shred of evidence that any of it is credible. Humans are a corrupt and viscious species that I have very little trust in outside of my family and friends. I’ll be darned if I believe anything that comes from them. Think of it like this. If most parents treated their kids as well as GOD, they would be in jail for child abuse. And don’t give me no guff about how GOD doesn’t cause the suffering in the world. What does he do to stop it?? I’m listening?? If you were God and could do anything at all, wouldn’t you make the world a better place if you could? I would love to think that there is something out there that cares , but so far I am not convinced.

  8. We are over two centuries removed from the ratification of our Constitution. Much has changed in the meantime. As late as 1850 religious services were conducted in the Capitol. Jefferson himself was an occasional attendee. In 1867 the Capitol was the largest church in Washington with over 2000 people attending weekly. One might reasonably conclude that there was nothing like the outright paranoia about church and state 150 years ago that we witness today. What is usually overlooked is that there was a shared ethic in the early days of our country that had its origin in the Judaeo-Christian heritage of our ancestors. As the fish doesn’t know any environment except the water, our Founders didn’t know any other ethic, whether they were theists, deists, or atheists. Fast forward 200 years to our increasingly secularized society. The fish hates the water, and the Judaeo-Christian ethic is fading into history. When that is gone, where will your president get his moral compass? The same place Hitler and Stalin did? May God save the United States of America.

  9. tomwa007 says:

    Nicely stated Mr. Olinger,

    Those who find fault in your statements only prove the validity of the latest Pew Trust study that shows Christians know nothing about their faith. They should have added questions about the constitution too since they seems to lack as much knowledge there.

  10. Sumner401 says:

    That has been perverted in the last several decades…

    by christains.

  11. aislander says:

    How have Christians perverted government’s stance toward religion, Sumner, causing it to become more adversarial? Exactly how?

  12. Roncella says:

    Kanpai, It also does not say in Islam we trust. It does say In God We Trust.

    Kanpai, are you ashame of The United States being Called a Christian Nation ?

    What Country in the World offers more freedom to their citizens to follow what ever faith they want to ?

    Its too Bad the Liberals/Progressives/ Socialists can’t accept all the great accomplishments America has successfully accomplished.

    Like Obama they feel it necessary to appoligize to Communists, and bow to Socialistic Dictators and seem ashamed of America and Americans.

  13. Concernedfather says:

    This is what happens when you offer a gratuitous citizenship to someone born in another country. You can take the insurgent out of Africa, educate him, coddle him, raise him in the lap of luxuary, but he is still what he was born to be.

  14. AreYouHighOrWhat says:

    And now a word from your native recovering catholic, pro abortion, pro-israel, militant radical fairy:

    “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” Romans 1.22

    and that pretty much sums up the posts here…….except for that first one, Italian Spring points out an interesting conundrum amongst my liberal brethren, If we’ve spent the last 40 years tearing down the catholics and maintaining the separation of church and state, why on earth would the liberals start promoting any religion at this point? The fact they’ve chose the cult of Islam is appalling to any REAL liberal that’s not a blatent hypocrite, especially since liberals have the most to lose from Islamoppression. Anyhoo, keep fighting amongst yourselves about what you think the the founders wanted and all of that jazz, I’m trying to live in the here and now. ;0)

  15. TOMWA007 – You mean that Pew study that over sampled atheists, Moslems and Jews to get enough responses to publish its results. Yeah, it’s worth about as much as your post. Nada.

  16. larsman says:

    Vel-good call
    Shadow- Not only did God give His Son Jesus Christ to die for you…He also gave you and everyone else another gift…Free Choice…that way you are not forced to do anything you don’t want to do, and neither are the billions of people before you. What you are seeing on the world today is the result of the choices made by the majority of mankind and the subsequent consequences of those choices. Would you rather be a robot? That is what a global socialist man-centered government would eventually have you be forced into. Yes, God IS love and love IS a choice, not a demand.
    John 14:6

  17. AreYouHighOrWhat – Context please.

    For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.–Romans 1:20-23.

    The fool is the guy who knows God but doesn’t give him his due. Do you qualify?

  18. OldLefty says:

    “Roncella says:
    October 1, 2010 at 10:21 am
    Ted, Have you ever noticed that our money has In God We Trust on it ?Have

    Have you noticed that the country was 100 years old before that was put on the money? Do you know why the government started doing that?

  19. OldLefty says:

    “When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” – Sinclair Lewis

  20. beerBoy says:

    Why are these “christians” so insecure in their belief that they insist upon attempting to rewrite history.

  21. Velmak asks, that when the Judaeo-Christian ethic is gone, “where will your president get his moral compass? The same place Hitler and Stalin did?”

    Hopefully not Velmak, “…a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; Consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. I am absolutely convinced of the great power and the deep significance of the Christian religion, and consequently will not permit any other founders of religion.” -Hitler, [quoted from Helmreich, p.241]

  22. aislander says:

    “Christianity: the Jewish mistake.” Adolf Hitler

  23. shadowsdad says:

    So according to you larsman, The only way god would be happy is to send his only son down to Earth just so he could die? Free Choice, I like that. Does God also have free choice? Is he the one in charge of making us ? Is he responsible for giving babies to crack addicts, parents in war ravaged countries living in horrendous circumstances, parents who, if he was god should know this, beat and abuse their children? Or how about women who get pregnant by their fathers? is he or isn’t he in charge of putting each and every one of us here? Children have no free choice. They are brought into this crappy world without ANY CHOICE. That is not a loving God. He does nothing to protect his children.

  24. beerBoy says:

    ron – putting a religious slogan on money seems rather sacrilegious don’t ya think?

  25. Sumner401 says:

    Why are these “christians” so insecure in their belief that they insist upon attempting to rewrite history.

    The same reason they need the Govt. to validate their beiief system, it isn’t real and they know it deep down.

  26. Sumner401 says:

    ron – putting a religious slogan on money seems rather sacrilegious don’t ya think?

    Considering that republicans/conservatives/teawhiners worship money…….not so much

  27. When AreYouHigh says: liberals have the most to lose from Islamoppression.

    I agree, there is an irony here that is almost unbelievable.

    I have nothing else to add except to affirm aislander, velmak and larsman.

    And bBoy, please don’t accuse conservatives or Christians of revisionist history, please…just don’t.

  28. velmak – I take it you fell asleep during most of the statistics classes you were enrolled in….. If the Pew study in fact “oversampled Atheists” (evidence?) then that still wouldn’t effect the AVERAGE number of correct answers given by Atheists/Agnostics……..except of course to tend to make the average more accurate for the population of Agnostics/Atheists at large.

    sozo – why not? When they do it (and some do) it should be seen for what it is. aislander’s favorite book “Liberal Fascism” is clearly and example of revisionist history by a conservative pundit. Likewise, the claim that the Founders based the Constitution upon Christian principals (rather than the pagan Greek invention of democracy and the pagan Roman invention of a republic) is revisionism.

  29. FakeFairyHigh – your Islamophobic post is consistent with everything else you have ever posted. And it is based upon a false dichotomy:

    Saying that the US is not a Xian nation is in no way equivalent to wanting the US to be an Islamic nation. It is a rejection of any and all theistic claims upon our secular governance.

    And…..the Bible and the Qu’ran have vehement anti-homosexual verses that are seized upon by FUNDAMENTALISTS regardless of which book they believe has the literal truth of the universe. Protectors of individual rights understand that fundamentalist religion – not a specific religion – is the enemy of those rights.

    You keep claiming to be a liberalfairy but you are campaigning against the rights of the individual to do whatever, believe whatever as long as it does no one else any harm – thus you are a fake.

  30. Shadow- re-read my post about our free will, it sounds like you didn’t quite get it.
    God does not cause sin ie. murder, rape, drug abuse(pharmacopoeia in the Greek Septuagint) so what translation are you using? You aren’t one who misquotes half passages out of context are you? We all need a Savior and Jesus being fully man and fully God is the only one qualified for that purpose, not Mohamed, not Buddha, not the Dalai Llama, or those cult leaders who take God’s name in vain. Clue : Things ARE going to get much worse in this world not just incrementally, but exponentially and all attempts of a man-made utopia on earth have ended in abysmal failure, but God’s mercy is still extended to this present day…just for you, shadow…

  31. shadowsdad says:

    Larsman, I do get it. It’s not that I don’t wish that there was a God, But wishing for something to be true doesn’t make it so. Can you offer me credible evidence that Jesus is the son of God? Don’t go quoting the Bible because that has no relevance to me. Also, give me some examples of GOD’s love. Go on, ” oh you say that he created everything around us” woopity doo da. Give me some other examples , I’m sure that the innocent people of the world that are needlessly suffering everyday would love to hear from you. And who is really the brain dead robot. The one who follows their faith blindly or the one who questions the validity of such outrageous claims. Get a brain.

  32. OldLefty says:

    “Christianity: the Jewish mistake.” Adolf Hitler”

    Please cite a reliable source for that quote.

  33. I just don’t think you want to get into a p….ing match about who has tinkered with history more…this one or that.

    Here’s a funny story for you. I was in MT once with a schoolteacher friend and found, during time in a museum gift shop, that the Native American music was getting on my nerves. Mind you, I like much of it…very much…but they were playing something that just happened to get on my nerves.

    The teacher began to give me the party line about Native Americans and how wonderful they are and how ashamed she was to be part of the white man’s mistreatment of them.

    About then, we came across a famous photo that showed a slaughter that had supposedly been perpetrated by white settlers on the Native Americans; the teacher quickly led me to the photo to drive home her point about the horrors visited upon Native Americans by white men, but alas, in reading the story behind the photo, we discovered that the whole thing had been staged by …wait for it… a journalist ! in order to enrage folks about the white man’s conduct in the west.

    I asked this teacher if she was aware of the tribes in the the NW that took slaves when they conquered other tribes; if she was aware of the cruel, brutal practices of some tribes?

    Mind you I was not defending the white man for his sins against these people, but I was trying to shake her out of her stupor; the fantasy whereby the natives were all living peacably together till you-know-who came along?
    I was trying to say that the white men were no better, but no worse than their NA counterparts.

    Just as Africans bought and sold (and still buy and sell) each other into slavery, so too did some NA’s.

    Why isn’t that some people fail to note that America has seen much social change on the humanitarian front; that all reasonable people be they red or yellow, black or white (as the old Sunday school song goes) welcome change that liberates people and advances us all in terms of how we treat each other.

    Wrongs are righted; things change in the U.S.A. That some of those changes are met with thoughtful questions and concerns is not a bad thing; it’s a good thing.

    Good luck finding untarnished sources these days, but whatever you read, it’s probably wise to add a big dose of common sense to the reading of it.

  34. Whether the photo of the massacre Sozo mentioned was staged or not, millions upon millions of Indians were slaughtered by Europeans as they conquered North America. Some historians label it, genocide. But its likely true that the white men may have been no better, or worse than their native American counterparts.

    However, Christians claim that our nation is a Christian one because it was founded on Christian principles, and by Christians. If the people that founded the nation were Christian, then so were the conquerers who massacred millions with their knifes, their bullets, and with the “cruel, brutal practice” of providing Indians with small-pox laced blankets.

    Shouldn’t those who claim God on their side have been operating with higher moral standards? Or does the higher moral ground only surface after, and by whatever means, goals have been accomplished and security established?

  35. beerBoy says:

    sozo – are you trying to say that only perfect people deserve to not be oppressed by Christians?

    Or is it just the ol’ “I know you are, but what am I?” defense?

  36. No bBoy, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that it’s folly to romanticize a people and that human brokenness isn’t something unique to white businessmen.

    If you’ve attended to my comments, you will recall that I am well aware of corruption and “sin” in every corner, including my own. I am for compassion and mercy; I am also for justice. I am for freedom. I am for change…when change is called for.

    I’m simply weary of the scapegoating of America and would like people to attend to the reality that we have much to be proud of, not the least of which is our capacity to repent and change.

    We also have things that should remain unchanged which is why I am leary of our current president’s long term goals.

  37. And cirrus, to answer your questions, yes. One would hope that those who claim to be people of God would conduct themselves accordingly. Sadly, sometimes they don’t. I should say “we don’t” as I am one who tries to live by God’s mandates and fail far more frequently than I would like to think.

    This whole country, in my opinion, has lost its way, and the way back is not going to be found in a political savior or ideology. Hope and change, yes, but not by way of a political platform. Neither Republicans nor Democrats have the winning ticket until we are ready to turn our hearts back to God.

    I realize that this sounds like nonsense to those of you who do not believe in God or who think God is cruel. It is my belief, and it is my prayer.

  38. shadowsdad says:

    I respect your beliefs sozo, but I respectfully disagree in that I I don’t want my elected leaders to be impartial to any specific religion. Religion must stay out of the political realm,otherwise we are in for trouble. Look at what happens in other countries whose leaders impose their extreme views of religion upon the people. I’m sorry, but if we had a President who thought that the end of times were near, and that the end of the world would be a glorious thing because we will get to be with Jesus, that scares the hell out of me. I happen to like life here on Earth even with all of our problems. You absolutely do not need to be religious to have morals. As a human being that is something you should just have, unfortunately alot of people don’t respect the gift which is life. We should all learn to get along, but as long as there are conflicting religions in the world and everyone thinking that their own is correct, I do not foresee peace on earth in the near future.

  39. Roncella says:

    Shawsdad should be happy with President Obama. He has gone to church 4 times in two years. So he is not mixing religion with Government at all.

    Obama has found time for 9 official vacations and many un official ones in less than two years in office. Everyone sets their own priorities. Watch actions they speak louder than words do.

  40. sozo says, “Neither Republicans nor Democrats have the winning ticket until we are ready to turn our hearts back to God.”

    Does God have any favorite religion(s), or will any religion suffice, sozo?

  41. shadowsdad says:

    Hey Roncella, I like him better than George Bush who has been on a mental vaction his entire life.

  42. Sumner401 says:

    Mind you I was not defending the white man for his sins against these people,

    Yes you were and then you go on to defend slavery!
    Seriously, you should be ashamed.

  43. Sumner401 says:

    I’m sorry, but if we had a President who thought that the end of times were near, and that the end of the world would be a glorious thing because we will get to be with Jesus,

    That President might go on to start wars for no reason in the heart of the middle East, and use any excuse and lies to do it. Hoping that the war he started might spark the end of times Armageddon. Because that President is most assuredly ‘picked by god’ to be President…….right?

    bush the failure, on all counts.

  44. Roncella says:

    Shadowsdad, You are definitely in the minority. Recent National polls show that a Majority of folks would vote, Geroge Bush back over Obama if the election were held today.

    Your right about one thing Obama can spend tax payers money faster than any President before him.

    He has spent more money in two years than all the Presidents from George Washington to Bill Clinton. If that makes him smarter than Bush in your Opinion so be it.

  45. “Your right about one thing Obama can spend tax payers money faster than any President before him”

    So whats your gripe? So did your heroes Bush and Reagan, and those two weren’t left with the challenge of spending to pull the country out of the deepest economic gutter since the great depression, nor were they left with the massive SSI, Medicare, or interest payments on the national debt that Obama was left with, combined with recession caused reduced revenues.

    From now on, tell your heroes to stand tall and take responsibility for their own mess instead of leaving it for the next president.

  46. Roncella says:

    cirrus, You mean like Billy Carter did to President Ronald Reagan, That is leave a huge mess for reagan to clean up.

    At least President Ronald Reagan had brains enough to fix the economy and restore Amerca to Greatness once again from the Carter Mess he was left to cean up.

  47. shadowsdad, I am not proposing that our government be run according to a particular religion. I am unafraid of giving all people the freedom to worship or not worship as they choose. I’m just saying that I believe we have lost our way, and Polago, you already know that I believie in the Triune God of Christianity, so of course it is my desire to see people return to said God.

    If I am wrong about God, God will take care of the matter, in his time.

  48. shadowsdad says:

    Hey Roncella, I don’t know who Geroge Bush is. I do know who George Bush is and I would like to see the polls of which you speak . If in fact that is a correct statement, which i highly doubt, then that doesn’t speak to highly about the intelligence of our fellow countrymen. Obama is far from perfect, but at least he has made attempts to make some changes. Why do you think we are bankrupt, could it be from 7 years of war spending that has really done nothing to improve the safety of our country?(Iraq). Hundreds of billions of dollars and over 4000 lives lost., over weapons of mass destruction that didn’t even exist. Roncella, now that is intelligent.

  49. shadowsdad says:

    Why do we have to return to GOD? We don’t even know that he exists,.He certainly doesn’t want to make himself known if he does. I am perfectly happy not worshipping a GOD. I do not need him to be happy and I certainly am not going to believe in one on a basis of fear of where I will go when I die. If God is just then he knows that I am a good person and try to do my best for my family and other people here on Earth. Why is it that people worship something that does absolutely nothing for them.Oh people think that he does help them, but I beg them to show me what in fact he does. I really don’t care what people want to believe, just do not tell me I need to return to God. My Family here on Earth means way more to me than a God who may or may not exist. Religion teaches people not to think outside the box and has caused war for millenia. I don’t need any part of it.

  50. beerBoy says:

    sozo – in the Catholic Church there is the sacrament of Penance. In order to be forgiven one’s sins, one must fully acknowledge them and be truly repentent. If the US is truly a “Christian Nation” then, perhaps it’s time for the USans to acknowledge our sins….. After all, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven”.

  51. sozo says, “Polago, you already know that I believie in the Triune God of Christianity, so of course it is my desire to see people return to said God.”

    Ah! Your God.

    So, Neither Republicans nor Democrats have the winning ticket until we are ready to turn our hearts back to your God, or to each person’s God of choice?

  52. Roncella,
    I think you should really take a step back and see what you’re posting…reevaluate, if that’s possible.
    And I mean this in a good way, if you can believe that.
    Your posts are the same canned responses, accusing people of only watching “the clown” Stewart/MSNBC, saying liberals are Godless, saying anything you possibly can to paint Obama in a negative light, and on and on.
    You’ve frequently said that people should move on and stop blaming Bush, but you seldom (if ever) acknowledge that Obama was handed the keys to a country in shambles, and that Bush and Co. were to blame.

    And don’t get me wrong-I’m not implying that your comments are unique in their entirety. The reason I’m barely on this site anymore is that I grew tired of the same BS, spewed over and over and over, without any hope of an intelligent debate or conversation.

    And my feelings are the same for those who share the same close-minded beliefs, yet left-leaning.

    So please, open your mind. Each day is an opportunity to learn something..

  53. beerBoy says:

    “the Triune God”………..that would be Poseidon with his trident?

  54. shadowsdad and polago:

    All people are free to worship or not as they please. That does not alter my hope.

    And you’re right, bBoy I don’t appreciate your sense of humor. Re your other comment…have I not suggested that “we” have lost our way?

    I have no illusions that the U.S.A. is a Norman Rockwell painting. When I say I think we should turn to God I actually mean “WE.”

  55. I must be asking the wrong questions, sozo, because your responses add little insight to the implications of your statement, that “Neither Republicans nor Democrats have the winning ticket until we are ready to turn our hearts back to God,”

    Maybe I should ask you to explain that comment. What do you mean when you say “we should turn to God?” And, how would that impact Republicans and Democrats?

  56. Sumner401 says:

    Sumner, I regret attempting to engage you in a resonable discussion.

    You’ve never attempted that with anyone.

  57. Sumner401 says:

    cirrus, You mean like Billy Carter did to President Ronald Reagan

    Well roncella, that would have been Nixon that left the mess, and it was Jimmy Carter that did more to fix than the big spending republican raygun.
    Why is history, truth and facts so difficult for the far right?

  58. I see how you find my comment ambiguous, Polago. I want to allow for the possibility that my idea of God is not the right one, though I personally feel that the God of Christianity has revealed himself to me in many ways.

    But in the event I’ve got it wrong, I STILL believe that we must tap a spiritual vein that has been cut off for a long time; look beyond ourselves and our smallness to One greater than we are, One who will direct us towards the light if we acknowledge him. There is more to this world that the human mind can fully grasp, more to this universe than science has explained fully; there is a Source of goodness, imo, goodness and righteousness and mercy and justice. It is THAT God I hope we will attend to.

    Again, on a personal note, the description of Jesus Christ as The Word of God in the first chapter of the Gospel of John rings true for me: ” In him was life and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness but the darkness does not comprehend it.”

    Please note that the word “comprehend” translates here in two ways, making the passage much more powerful. The word means that the world will not understand it, but it also means the world cannot extingluish it.”

    I don’t think I can explain it beyond that.

  59. Thank you for the explanation, sozo.

    I understand why you want this for yourself, and you are entitled to believe whatever you chose to believe. I don’t see how you’ve come to the conclusion that everybody “WE” have to follow the course you’ve chosen for yourself in order to “have a winning ticket, as a nation.”

    Personal goodness is accomplished in many ways, one of which is your way, through your devotion to your religion, but that isn’t the only way. Our country is filled with good people who aspire to many other religions, one of which you have expressed serious reservations toward. Many good people follow no religions. (gasp)

    I remember all the whoop-la about Kennedy, the Catholic. As if that made a difference. Obama is accused of being Muslim by many from the right wing. As if that makes a difference. You’ve brought up his church on several occasions because of what the pastor said. That doesn’t make Obama a bad person.

    All of this is political posturing, an effort to discredit the opponent.

    This is why I agree with this letter. We are a nation of many religions, none of which takes precedence over the others.

    This is why I question statements like yours, “Neither Republicans nor Democrats have the winning ticket until we are ready to turn our hearts back to God,” as if there is something wrong with not having our hearts turned toward God.

  60. Unfortunately, there is a lot of evil done in this world by people who maintain that they have turned their hearts toward their particular version of God.

  61. Roncella says:

    Loz, I’m not surprised that you don’t want to read my posts. As far as repeating the same line of thought your suggestion would fit Polago, Sumner, and so many other ;posters.

    Thats one of the great things about living in America. If we don’t want to listen to Rush Limbaugh or Keith Olbermann or who ever , we have the freedom to not listen to them, isn’t that a wonderful thing.

    I have read almost every post you have made and can honestly say I did not agree with more than 1% of your post coments.

    Thats fine with me. I still believe you have every right to repeat your beliefs or express them any way you want to. Sorry to have taken some of the fun of posting from you.

  62. Fair enough Polago. I know that goodness is not exclusive to religious people, just as evil is not exclusive to the non-religious. And I do remember the broohaha over Kennedy being a Roman Catholic. Such petty caricatures of people serve no purpose. But I will continue to pray for us to seek God if that’s okay by you. After all, if there is no God, my prayers won’t hurt anyone, right?

    Having said that, I remain appalled by much of what I’ve read and heard from Jeremiah Wright and just as I will denounce crazy, corrupt televangelists when I see ‘em, so too will I denounce those of any political stripe who provoke hatred in the manner Wright does.

    Each of us must live with consequences of our behavior, including the right Rev.

  63. beerBoy says:

    The most authentically religious person I have ever known was my wife’s grandmother. She lived her faith without feeling the need to proselytize or to judge others for not sharing her beliefs.

  64. larsman says:

    The misconception correction moment – 1) Christianity does not attempt to accelerate to “Armageddon”, shadow, you are confusing that insane idea with
    …ta daaa, Shiite 12 – ers ( you might of course need a large dose of explanation of these concept terms seeing that you consider ALL “religions” equivalent which is like you driving down the wrong way of a one way street just because all streets are made of concrete. Shia is the Islamic denomination (as opposed to the Sunni 5 – ers or Wahhab) of A-jad and the Ayatollahs of Persian Iran, of course you already knew these distinctions, right?
    2) Christianity is directed by our God to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I don’t see how that is “forcing ” anyone anywhere to do anything and one may leave Christianity without incurring a fatwah death sentence, ahem…
    3) We are, as some may have carelessly forgotten, a representative republic.
    as opposed to a ‘democracy’, which was first enacted approx. 1250 BC at Pnyx Hill in Athens by King Theseus by moving debate and legislation to the outside for all to see and in which all citizens may participate. This one act more than any other, dislodged the backroom dealings of the princes and barons of Attica and allowed voting on single issues by each citizen, who would place his coin in a very large vase in the center of the grounds, and physically place himself by either the wall towards Aries Hill – or the opposite
    wall towards the Hill of the Muses.
    4) After being healed instantaneously of a grand mal siezure by prayer to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ I feel waaaaay beyond “ignorantly or blindly following ‘some’ religion”. Hope that opens the door for you just a little more…

  65. shadowsdad says:

    Hey larsman, all religions are the same in that they make truth claims that are not backed up by any proof of their validity. Prove to me that jesus was the son of god. How could you possibly know that as fact? were you alive in the time of Jesus? Jewish people do not accept that Jesus was the son of God so somebody is definitely wrong as you both couldn’t possibly be correct. Pray for an amputee to have their limbs restored. The day that happens I will start believing in God. There are thousands of religions in the world. They can’t all possibly be correct. That tells me that man has created them in their own mind. Also, do you realize that if you were born in the middle east you would be telling me that Islam is the one true religion and that Christianity is false? I feel sorry for the mentally impaired.

  66. Here’s something chewy for those who embrace the notion that all religions are the same, which of course is utter nonsense and disrespectful to people of every religion.

    It’s a line from Stephen Prother’s book God is Not One.

    “The ideal of religious tolerance has morphed into the straitjacket of religious agreement.”

    If you really want to see the “ideal” of religious tolerance to return to the conversation, it will begin with acknowledging the deep and abiding differenes that exist in religious doctrines and philosophies.

    I believe the founding fathers understood this, but we are now living in an era that simply wants to dilute out all religions until there’s nothing left.

    As for your lament shadow, if you are looking for a god that is so small he fits inside the skulls of man, well…let’s put it this way…who wants him?

    When a little kid goes to run into a busy street and his father stops him, the kid doesn’t understand why the father would prevent him from going where he wanted to go. Your comments about God sound like the laments of a child who’s mad because God refuses to be what you want him to be.

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