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OBAMA: For some, goal is destroying presidency

Letter by Bernice L. Youtz, Tacoma on Sep. 9, 2010 at 1:29 pm with 79 Comments »
September 9, 2010 2:25 pm

Kathleen Parker claims we are “weary” of President Obama’s promises and says “Nope” to “Got hope?” (column, 9-8).

I have voted in 16 presidential campaigns and have seen my candidate lose in 10 of them, but never have I seen such determination, from day one, to destroy the candidate we elected as I see with President Obama.

We do not have a king or a dictator, by choice. We do not have a parliamentary system where an executive can be removed by a vote of “lack of confidence.” We have a president elected for four years who has to work with the checks and balances of Congress and the Supreme Court.

The president has no magic wand to turn those promises to reality. We are all in this together. What if we all resolved to say, “This is my country. I may not have voted for this candidate, but if he ‘fails,’ we all fail?”

Could we all go to work to help a president, even one we did not vote for, in our own best interests? Is it up to us to help make those promises come true? Do we care more about destroying a presidency than we do about strengthening our nation and improving our own lives?

Leave a comment Comments → 79
  1. Publico says:

    It’s the radical rightwing republicans who are doing the damage. They can be beaten with some effort, because they stand for policies that are not in the best interests of most people.

  2. aislander says:

    I shall support this president against foreign enemies, but WILL not support him in his effort to further destroy the essence of America. In fact, I will oppose him with all the resources I have available…

  3. The president and his “handlers” and his media pups have only themselves to blame for this. Setting yourself up as Savior and Messiah is a bad idea.

    Amen Aislander.

    And for the record, I think people in the heartland are just generally fed up with the liberal agenda period.

  4. blakeshouse says:

    The presidency is being destroyed from within, along with the constitution. I will not support or work toward helping him turn this into another failing socialist state. I will work to defeat ALL those in congress who think this is what America is meant to be.

  5. nwcolorist says:

    “…never have I seen such determination, from day one, to destroy the candidate we elected as I see with President Obama.”

    Bernice, you must have been asleep during George Bush’s presidency. There was no stop vilification, ridicule, marginalization, and mean-spirited attacks for eight years. Especially troubling were the personal attacks about the way he spoke, his appearance, his mental state, and his mannerisms.

    My son’s computer desktop page had pictures of Bush photos with chimpanzee pictures next to them. Has Obama had to endure that?

    Perspective is sadly lacking in your letter.

  6. iamjimbo says:

    Funny Bernice, almost the same amount of people felt the same way during the last administration.

    perspective much? selective outrage much?

    “Magic wand”? “Promises”? “Reality”? ROFLOL!

  7. iamjimbo says:

    Gotta love those ideologues – consistently changing their arguments in order to maintain a consistent ideological world view.

  8. donjames says:

    “Could we all go to work to help a president, even one we did not vote for, in our own best interests?”

    Madame, I would respectfully submit this… president has scarcely done anything that I would consider to be in my “own best interests”.

    Oh he has done plenty for the big-spending liberal, pelosi and ried crowd. But for the average American?

    0bamacare? StimuLess slush fun… er package? Sue the state of AZ over their immigration laws? How’s that Recovery Summer workin’ out for ‘ya?

    And now he thinks he has a snow-balls chance of getting StimuLess II through? This empty suit of a president is completely out of touch with the non- astroturf middle America.

    But for those who have been paying attention, I, along with most of my contemporaries, here, knew what the narcissist-in-chief was all about before lemmings like you, Bernice, voted him into office. The fact he is busy proving us right – to the chagrin of many former supporters who now feel duped – should be a sign that the pixie dust has worn off. They, like you, now realize he “has no magic wand”. Never did.

    Maybe… when your dose of pixie dust finally wears off, you will be able to help us make it #9 on the “W” side for you, in 2014. But some how I doubt it.

  9. larsman says:

    Perhaps it is time to play ” Contract…or …Consequences” …

  10. Sumner401 says:

    Setting yourself up as Savior and Messiah is a bad idea.

    Which of course he didn’t do.
    Why do you lemmings fall for the propaganda all the time?
    Haven’t you figured it out yet?

  11. Sumner401 says:

    almost the same amount of people felt the same way during the last administration.

    The failure bush had an approval rating of 20%, the only way “the same amount of people” comes into play is that same 20% are the ones that are in fact working hard to destroy this President, out of purely partisan reasons, despite what is good for the nation.

  12. Sumner401 says:

    Good letter Bernice, as always the more the right attacks and whines, the more you know you’ve nailed it.

    The louder they whine and cry, the better the President has done.

  13. It’s laughable. I don’t recall any president taking any more crap that GWB, and he didn’t waste any time whining about it. Would that all those now so concerned about the morale of the country had been a wee bit concerned about the demoralization during Bush’s administration.

    Sorry Bernice, your boat ain’t floatin’.

  14. blakeshouse says:

    As usual Sumner’s one note song is falling on deaf ears. Bush may have hit 20% but he didn’t come anywhere near the 38% this early in his admin. Not bad concidering the socialist in chief was at 70+% not a yr ago.

  15. blakeshouse says:

    Ohio a major player in electing this fool to office now says WE WANT BUSH BACK. This brought to you by a LIBERAL pollster.

  16. Everyone needs to keep in mind the our own Patty Murray is right behind Obama and Pelosi and Harry Reid promoting the Obama agenda. Unhappy with the direction of the country? Well we can all do something about it by voting out the dumbest senator in Washington DC from Washington.

    Vote out Patty Murray. It’s a good start to begin to return America to a better future.

  17. dewilson says:

    Bernice, you have it 100% right. The Conservo-Republicans are so terrified that President Obama might actually bring the county together enough to reverse the trend of Corporate totalatarianism and bring back a country that supports a viable middle class, that they can not afford to allow him to acheive anything postive. It would destroy the Republican Party for decades. We now have a mendacious right wing that has made a new record in the number of filibusters, even for bills that support small business and provide tax breaks to the middle class.

    They can’t win on policies, so they go on the ad hominen attacks, i.e., question President Obama’s birth place, call him a socialist, a communist, a liberation Christian, and now a Muslim so they can tie him to Muslim terrorists.

    And for the Bush apologists, I might just mention that Bush had the entire country and the world behind him when he stood with the megaphone on the rubble of 9/11. He lost the nation and the world when it became apparent that he used 9/11 as a pretext to invade a country that didn’t threaten us, employed torture, and drove the economy in the abyss. I do agree that ‘chimp’ pictures were over the top, but Mr. Bush has earned far more criticism than President Obama could even if he stood still.

  18. Novelist3 says:

    “The Conservo-Republicans are so terrified that President Obama might actually bring the county together”
    Yeah, he’s done such a great job of that so far.
    Oh wait…

  19. To assume that either Party has the best interests of the Country above their power games is remarkably naive. The Republicans want to get the power back and they are actively opposing everything – even the proposals that fit neatly withing their stated philosophy and goals – in order to do that.

    And the sheeple say “sure thing, gotta vote for the lessor of two evils” – and the Who sang “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.

  20. Sumner401 says:

    Bush may have hit 20% but he didn’t come anywhere near the 38% this early in his admin.

    NAd neither has President Obama but, had it not been for 9/11 the failure would most certainly have hit the low 30’s within the first 2 years of his long dark rein.

  21. Sumner401 says:

    I don’t recall any president taking any more crap that GWB,

    Other than Carter,(you are still whining and blaming him) Clinton,(8 year witch hunt that cost 40 million) and now Obama of course, but yeah, no one else.
    Man the partisanship is thick.

  22. LuckyCharm says:

    What is this “essence of America,” ai, and how exactly do you feel the President is trying to “destroy” it?

  23. The right complains whenever the left brings up the Bush presidency, until the left calls for cooperation. Then the right brings up the Bush presidency to complain about how poorly GWB was treated, as if that’s some kind of justification for treating Obama poorly.

  24. The tit-for-tat blame game is tiresome. Perhaps it will end when the president and his team start taking responsibility for their own choices?

  25. Exactly, sozo. Instead of being held responsible for the choices of the previous administration.

  26. iamjimbo says:

    • Polago wrote on 09/07/2009 04:52:03 PM:

    “You don’t blame last years coach for this years losses”…

  27. Sumner401 says:

    The tit-for-tat blame game is tiresome.

    Then why do you engage in it so often?
    Accept the responsibility of your party and it’s action that resulted in the total destruction of our nation and it’s economy and step up to help repair it.
    Once we can agree that your policies are the problem and not the solution maybe we can get the country working again.

  28. Exactly, iammjimmbo, you blame last years coach for last years mistakes, not this years coach whose job it is to fix them.

  29. Sumner401 says:

    I don’t she has what it takes to understand that simple fact Polago.

  30. The whining from the left is deafening! The letter from Bernice is a sad reminder that liberals can dish it out but can’t take it. Obama’s presidency is a failure. He has turned off more of his own base than the compliant media are willing to report. The number of leftists who are jumping ship brings up images of rats jumping off of a sinking ship. Demokrats running for office don’t want Obama anywhere near them, they won’t mention HealthCare or the stimulus in their campaign rhetoric. How much more clearer of a picture of a failed administration do you need?

  31. It’s not a matter of ability, Sumner401, but desire.

  32. This is ridiculous.

  33. This president should get credit for bringing us together. When he took office many of us were broke. Now look we’re all broke. Great job!!

  34. I have voted in 12 presidential elections and never before have I seen any president so determined to ignore the limits placed on the federal government by the U.S. constitution. This incumbent does not respect our Constitution, our heritage, or our traditional values–hence his determination to effect change where none is wanted. I want Lincoln’s version of government–of, by, and for the people–not of, by, and for Obama.

  35. Agreed, sozo. This whole situation is ridiculous.

  36. dewilson says:

    Velmak – Are you kidding? Bush/Cheney are and remain the great champions of trampling the Constitution, through executive orders, and record number of unconstitutional signing statements, the Patriot Act, avoidance of FISA laws and coercion of telecommunications companies to spy on Americans, torture, military commissions, conduct of secret meetings and refusal to make government records available to the public, and even giving the President the authority to suspend habeas corpus.

    I will join you in criticizing Obama for not revoking many of these executive perogatives, but he doesn’t come close to the near-despotism of the Bush/Cheney cabal.

  37. Roncella says:

    Velmak, Your post is right on !!!! You stole my thunder. Well said.

    President Obama has accomplished one very important factor in all this.

    President Obama has awoke the sleeping vast Conservative giant, who fell asleep during the Bush years and allowed the Great Community Organizor to be voted in as President.

    This November President Obama and the liberal/Democrats will get a first hand education about democracy and how it works to make corrections when necessary, for a large majority of Amercans. Thank God ……

  38. Sumner401 says:

    never before have I seen any president so determined to ignore the limits placed on the federal government by the U.S. constitution

    Where were you when bush the failure tortured people, tapped your phone, read your emails and tracked your movements?
    Please your partisan blinders are worse than the far right extremists that post here.
    You can’t name a single example where he has done what you claim and everyone knows it.

  39. DubyaFTW says:

    The headline made sense until I read your pap content. At first I thought you meant Obama was destroying the office of President, which is correct. Now I realize you are just blindly in love with Obama, and have no grasp of how bad this jerk really is for the country.

  40. dewilson – Obamacare is the greatest illegal power grab in the history of this country. Anything Bush did pales by comparison.

    As for the Patriot Act, it ‘s extension was overwhelmingly approved by the Congress and signed by Obama.

    As for torture, I couldn’t care less what happens to the scumbags that perpetrated 9/11, or any other terrorist. They can rot in hell.

  41. t ‘s extension was overwhelmingly approved by the Congress and signed by Obama.

    Precisely the problem with the Dem Congress and Obama – their insistence upon continuing the failed policies of the previous Administration.

  42. iamjimbo says:

    Beerboy, please explain how the patriot act was a failure.
    … and we all know how the left tortured and stretched the meaning of torture…

  43. aislander says:

    iamjimbo writes: “… and we all know how the left tortured and stretched the meaning of torture…”

    They practiced on the Constitution first, but don’t worry: they’re still working on THAT…

  44. Sumner401 says:

    As I have said many time before, you have to be seriously twisted to be a rightwinger/republican/conservative/teawhiner these days!
    How do you people do it?

  45. LuckyCharm says:

    Again, what is this “essence of America” that Obama’s trying to destroy? How is he destroying the office of the President, for God’s sake?

    And velmak, not just some, but the vast MAJORITY of prisoners at Gitmo, Abu G, etc. were INNOCENT. Okay? They are not terrorists. They do not help terrorists. They do not even like terrorists. In many cases, their only crime was living in the same town where suspected terrorists were found. For this they were spirited off to a foreign country and tortured for years without ever being told even why they were being held. Forget a lawyer or a phone call to family. Is it any wonder why their loved ones rise up and join the ranks of the real terrorists, in response to this kind of illegal incarceration? For our own security, we need to STOP THE TORTURE, now! It does not yield reliable intel, it does not deter terrorist attacks, it only alienates our allies and inflames our enemies. And makes monsters and victims of its perpetrators as well. How many former troops do you think you’re paying for in taxes, for life, because what they did and saw in the combat zone shattered them forever? Next time you go off at the mouth about “nanny states” and “personal responsibility” and all that trash, just think about what your beloved Bush did to create, en masse, just such a “nanny state” among our veterans. If you supported the Iraq war, and especially if you support torture, then when you file your tax return, you should write your check for double what you owe, because YOU need to pay for the aftermath.

  46. iamjimbo says:

    3 people were waterboarded…

  47. iamjimbo says:

    … and one was scared by a bug…

  48. All elected officials swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. The Patriot Act diminishes the protections guaranteed by the Constitution – even shredding habeus corpus, a protection so enshrined since the Magna Carta that the Founders didn’t think to include it as a specific Right (though the language clearly references their understanding of its central importance)

    That was a huge failure in a supposedly free state.

  49. ij – again trying to say “just a little pregnant” in reference to torture.

    Ummm……did you forget about extraordinary rendition? Or Abu Ghraib? Or Obama’s extended powers to order executions of citizens without a trial?

    Just “a bug” in your world……

  50. …and one was scared by a rat

    The door opened again. A guard came in, carrying something made of wire, a box or basket of some kind. He set it down on the further table. Because of the position in which O’Brien was standing. Winston could not see what the thing was.

    ” The worst thing in the world “, said O’Brien, ” varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal.”

    He had moved a little to one side, so that Winston had a better view of the thing on the table. It was an oblong wire cage with a handle on top for carrying it by. Fixed to the front of it was something that looked like a fencing mask, with the concave side outwards. Although it was three or four metres away from him, he could see that the cage was divided lengthways into two compartments, and that there was some kind of creature in each. They were rats.

    ” In your case “, said O’Brien, ” the worst thing in the world happens to be rats.”

    1984, Chapter 23, George Orwell

  51. Sumner401 says:

    3 people were waterboarded…

    You don’t know that ( I suspect you are lying) and even if true, it’s 3 too many.

  52. LuckyCharm says:

    If you really want it from someone who was there, read Inside the Wire, written by a former interrogator assigned to Gitmo. Don’t believe the crap you hear on Fox.

  53. dewilson says:

    Torture is an abomination that is outlawed by our own United States and the Geneva Convention, which we not only signed but were primary advocates of. And there were dozens of incidents of water boarding as well as other, prohibited acts and at least 3 persons were know to have died as a result. These are are the acts of slimy little despots and a disgrace to America, a country that imposed capital punishment on a Japanese general in WWII for condoning torture on American soldiers.

    I note that very few of our “Christian” friends have spoken out with revulsion against these acts, but then, of course, those people are of another faith and therefore without redemption in the eyes of (“the Christian”) God. I’m sure Jesus would have smote them severely, given the opportunity.

  54. dewilson, you are growing pompous and nasty. “but then those people are of another faith and therefore without redemption in the eyes of (“The Christian”) God.”

    No one, not one person is outside the love and redemptive power of Christ.

    Many Christians have spoken out against torture, and while some may be cynical regarding the reports re torture committed by the U.S., you will have no problem finding dozens and dozens who have and will speak out against inhuman treatment of others.

    You hold a seriously biased view of Christians. Broaden you scope AND your acquaintances.

  55. LuckyCharm, You were a volunteer in the military, as such, you through your own actions you supported the war in Iraq. You could have become a concientious objector at any time and get discharged from the army. You need to get off of your high horse and accept blame for your role. You also should write a check to the Treasurer of the United States and double your tax payment because YOU were a player in this. Or was your retirement check more important to you than than your honor?

  56. Not only dewilson holds a lot of dislike towards Christians. Just read the postings from any liberal and you will notice a linkage between them. A common thread that ties them together is a hatred for Christianity and patriotism.

  57. iamjimbo says:

    Thread drift people… “OBAMA: For some, goal is destroying presidency’

    I suppose she would be correct. “Some” people’s goal was to destroy Bush’s presidency.

    “We do not have a king or a dictator” Tell it to Barry.

    “checks and balances of Congress “??? psssssst… Barry has a majority in both houses honey.

    “The president has no magic wand to turn those promises to reality” Duh! Glad to see a few of you finally are getting it. When he was making those lofty promises I pretty much said the same thing Bernice. Welcome to the real world.

  58. LuckyCharm says:

    frosty, a few quick facts here: 1) When I was called up, the Iraq war hadn’t yet been declared and we weren’t officially told where we were going until we were on the plane, 2) CO status is not easy or quick to obtain, especially in a war zone, and 3) It is not granted to those who oppose a particular war, but to those who find they’re opposed to the idea of all armed combat, ever, for any reason, so I would not have qualified.

    Also remember that many “volunteers” have actually been retained well past the expiration of their contractual term of service, known as “stop-loss.” So people you call volunteers may well have been conscripts, in effect. Very neat, if you ask me — a volunteer cannot end his contract prematurely, but the Army can very well extend it without his consent!

    Again I say, all you people who elevate torture to the level of a sacrament, believing it epitomizes the best of our American ideals, ought to be happy to pay your war taxes and then some, because it is that very attitude that has taken so many able-bodied, talented men and women out of the workforce for life and put them on your dime. And of course, those men and women won’t be contributing as much to the economy, which will squeeze auto mechanics, hair stylists, pet groomers, waiters, day care workers, and a host of other employees whose jobs depend on others having enough disposable income to afford their services, so many of those workers will get their pink slips, further adding to the public burden. And so on. It’s a trickle effect, but this one is real, and all the war’s cheerleaders ought to be first in line to hand over their portion of the burden borne by those caught in those economic straits.

  59. ij – just what has Obama done that reminds you of a king or a dictator? Seems to me, if he were acting in such a manner he wouldn’t have had so much problem getting his Health Care package passed.

  60. Sumner401 says:

    dewilson, you are growing pompous and nasty.

    Do you not any mirrors in your world sozo?

  61. iamjimbo says:

    Beerboy, google Obama dictator. Take your pick….

  62. iamjimbo says:

    … how did Barry have such a problem getting his healthcare passed? Good grief man… it was passed so we could find out what’s in it!

    Speaking of healthcare….

  63. iamjimbo says:

    2011 W-2 Tax Forms and Obama Care

    If this doesn’t get to you, then check your pulse. You may be a flat-line…

    Should you want to verify this, go to http://www.thomas.gov/, enter “HR 3590″
    in the search box and look for “CRS Summaries.” This is what you’ll find.

    Title IX Revenue Provisions?Subtitle A: Revenue Offset
    “(Sec. 9002) Requires employers to include in the W-2 form of each employee
    the aggregate cost of applicable employer-sponsored group health coverage
    that is excludable from the employee’s gross income (excluding the value of
    contributions to flexible spending arrangements).”

    Starting in 2011, next year, the W-2 tax form sent by your employer will be increased to show the value of whatever health insurance you are provided. It doesn’t matter if you’re retired. Your gross income WILL go up by the amount of insurance your employer paid for. So you’ll be required to pay taxes on a larger sum of money that you actually received.
    Take the tax form you just finished for 2009 and see what $15,000.00 or $20,000.00 additional gross income does to
    your tax debt. That’s what you’ll pay next year. For many it puts you into a much higher bracket. This is how the government is going to buy insurance for fifteen (15) percent that don’t have insurance and it’s only part of the tax increases, but it’s not really a “tax increase” as such, it a redefinition of your taxable income.

    Also, go to Kiplinger’s and read about the thirteen (13) tax changes for 2010 that could affect you.

    Why am I sending you this? The same reason I hope you forward this to every single person in your address book. People have the right to know the truth because an election is coming in November. So vote intelligently, based on your values. But also adjust your tax withholding, or increase your savings, so that you aren’t surprised and put in a jam when your federal income taxes are due on April 15, 2012.

    Fight organized crime! Re-elect no one who supported Obama Care.

  64. LuckyCharm, nice try! did the army hogtie you and carry you overseas? I’ve seen several reports of soldiers who refuse to deploy and were deferred and discharged, mostly Muslims.You often discribed your “outside the wire” experiences, were you not aware at that time which country you were in, but yet did the bidding of your superiors? That would put you more or less in the same category of the many german soldiers who said they were only doing as ordered, or how do you differ from them? Let’s stop with the excuses and accept the responsibility o.k.?

  65. ij – nope, not going to google something that I know will only give me a whole bunch of reich wing sites.

  66. dewilson says:

    No, I don’t hate Christians. In fact I revere any one who lives by the kinds of principles espoused by Christ regarding how man should relate to his fellow man. What I do hate are extremist Christians, i.e., the right wing Conservative Christians who want to claim the Constitution is subordinate to the Bible. I hate extremist Christians almost as much as extremist (terrorist) Muslims or anyone else who uses religion or their deity of choice to justify their hatred against others.

    I measure patriotism by one’s allegience to the Constitution. So I do hate phony patriots who hold a flag in one hand and the Constitution in the other while rationalizing reasons to deny others their Constitutional rights. And I really despise the phony patriots that send my comrades in arms to face death or crippling injuries in an illegal war in order to occupy a Muslim country because it happens to sit on top of 10% of the world’s oil reserves.

    More simply put, I hate the depraved hypocrisy of the religous and political right that disgrace everything America stands for.

  67. I hate evil, which is perpetrated by all sorts of people, often disguised.

    And yes, that includes people disguised as Christians, but it also includes people wearing other masks as well, people practiced in the art of saying what people want to hear despite what’s going on within.

    Would that your vision might ake in some of those folks dewilson, but I fear you have some big time baggage on board where Christians are concerned. I’m sorry about that.

  68. LuckyCharm says:

    Oops, looks like jimm has been duped again! FactCheck.org has debunked the krayzee claims in the chain email he’s copied and pasted here. When will you stop believing everything that lands in your inbox?

    frosty, it must be very dull indeed in your black-and-white universe. Like I said, when I went over, the war hadn’t even been declared yet — I was already there when it happened. You can’t just buy a plane ticket, call a taxi to the airport, and go home. Our access to news was extremely limited — we knew what was happening on the ground in front of us, and what came down to us through channels, but that was it. And even here in the States, where news is relatively easy to get to if you want it, the real reasons and machinations behind the war were slow to emerge. Even our chaplain couldn’t say for certain whether we were doing the “right” or “wrong” thing, but ultimately felt that in the absence of information to the contrary, we were bound to uphold our sworn obligations.

    Hindsight is 20/20, they say, and it’s very easy to play Monday morning QB when you haven’t been in the fray yourself. We were soldiers, not psychics. Those who’ve refused to deploy have done so in more recent times, with more facts at their disposal. You can’t hold someone accountable for information that was deliberately withheld from them.

  69. I’m sure you will be more guarded in the future LC, about taking vows and making pledges of allegiance?

  70. LuckyCharm says:

    Oh, I have no problem pledging allegiance and service to my country, sozo. But I will be (even more so than before) much more careful about who I vote for to run it. I was already on my last hitch when Bu$h took office, and I didn’t vote for him, so go ahead and point the finger at those who did. I make no apology for doing the best I knew to do at the time — indeed, I had the chance to be held back on a paperwork technicality at the last minute, literally as we waited to board the plane, and I rejected it, preferring to stick with the mission and let the paper-pushers sort it out later. Would I have done differently if I’d known then what I know now? I’m not sure, and the very question is pointless. “You don’t go to war with the information you wish you had, you go with the information you have,” to paraphrase Rumsfeld. And I hope that all who’ve returned will find a way past any regrets and self-recrimination they may carry. We did our best, and that’s more than the majority of Americans did from the comfort of their living rooms, waving their flags and singing “God Bless the USA.”

  71. Roncella says:

    Lucky Charm most of the blogs you get information from to post here I have read and they are usually extreme left wing libleral/progressives. I realize that suits you and donfirms your beliefs in the World of left wing politics.

  72. dewilson says:

    Sozo – Please spare me your pity. I criticize extremist Christians along with any other religious extremists so I have no particular ‘baggage’ towards Christians in that respect. In fact most of the Christians I know revere Christ’s teachings but don’t hold a blind allegiance to the mythology and fables of the Bible just because it’s been stamped “scripture”. They also tend to believe that an all-caring, all-knowing God would ultimately judge us on what is in our hearts, not on whether we belong to the “Christ-is-my-savior Club”, or the “Thanks be to Allah Club”, or the “Serenity comes through Buddha Club”, (pick your membership)…

    In general I see no real difference between the vast majority of Christians and other religious people with good hearts. Likewise, I perceive as many Christians as other religions who use their “righteousness” and quoting of scripture to justify their hatred for others and ultimately, to set themselves apart in their own mind as one of the “chosen few” in the eyes of their deity of choice.

  73. Didn’t mean to offend you dewilson. I think you have quite a distorted view of those you call “evangelical” or “conservative” Christians, but clearly nothing I say will diminish your view here.

  74. dewilson says:

    Sozo – I think “distorted” in this case is in the eyes of the beholder. I see “evenglical” or “conserative” Christians as being a threat to a tolerant and democratic government because of their ‘dominionist’ tendencies based on their notion that they alone, have “truth and righteousness” on their side, and thus they are doing God’s work to impose those same notions on others.

    I suspect that from your view, they are surely well-intended and benign to American democracy because you also share their faith in God and Christ.

    I don’t pretend to diminish your view either; I only point out that there are others who do not share your specific beliefs, do not want them imposed on us, and therefore demand a secular government that does not show favor nor opposition to any particualr religion. (Of course that doesn’t mean the government shouldn’t take appropriate action on those who conduct criminal acts regardless of their religion).

  75. This is an argument that has no ending. Everyone has their view of what it takes to be a “good American”. No one will change my mind and I know I cannot change a liberal’s mind. You can keep on repeating yourself over and over, you may enjoy reading your own comments, but to me it’s the same old stuff.

  76. dewilson says:

    Frosty – And if you were to reverse the references, I couldn’t have said better myself.

    My definition of a “good American” is one whose allegience is the Constitution of the United States of America and stands up for its precepts and guarantees for all persons, regardless of their race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, or other legal association.

    My definition of a “bad American” is one who believes in American “exceptionalism” (e.g., “America – Love it or Leave it”), jingoism, blind Nationalism, and the denial of rights and/or ostracism of racial or religious minorities.

  77. I think America is exceptional and am not ashamed to say so, though recent years, I’ve begun to worry.

  78. LuckyCharm says:

    America is exceptional, just like every other country. That’s like saying, “I’m unique, just like everybody else.”

    Where exceptionalism turns nefarious is where it presupposes to be above the very laws it imposes on others. “You may not kill us, but we can kill you with impunity and call it collateral damage.” “You may not torture our citizens, but we can torture yours in the name of national security.” “You must form a democratic government, and we’ll impose it on you while turning a blind eye to the rampant corruption within our own political process.” Etc. We may be exceptional, most notably in that we are one of the youngest nations on the globe. Yet we presume to go around telling everyone else how to live while refusing to abide by our own stated principles. THAT is the dark side of American exceptionalism.

  79. Exceptional does not mean above the laws of human decency, at least not in my dictionary.

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