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9/11: Good reason we must never forget

Letter by Larry L. Bergstrom, Spanaway on Sep. 9, 2010 at 1:48 pm with 70 Comments »
September 9, 2010 2:21 pm

Re: “Nation needs to move forward” (letter, 9-9).

In case the writer hasn’t looked at a calendar recently, Dec. 7 is referred to as “Pearl Harbor remembrance day.” This event took place almost 70 years ago, and instead of forgetting that day we have a national memorial at the site as well as a day set aside each year to commemorate that day.

I, for one, have placed the events of 9/11 in perspective. We were attacked by extremists who won’t rest until they destroy the very backbone of America.

The longer we remember the lives lost on on Sept. 11, 2001 and the loss of security that we as a nation no longer enjoy, the more likely we will avoid another tragedy of this magnitude.

I would prefer that we remain vigilant. If the writer wants to forget, she still has the freedom to turn off her television.

Leave a comment Comments → 70
  1. Amen and thank you Larry.

  2. menopaws says:

    Who can forget with 24/7 whining on cable news????

  3. iamjimbo says:

    Well said Larry. be prepared to be peppered with derogatory name calling by our “tolerant” friends on the left.

  4. larsman says:

    Thanks Larry, “tolerance” (not knowing or caring what you believe in) only seems to work in one direction – left

  5. Sumner401 says:

    We were attacked by extremists who won’t rest until they destroy the very backbone of America.

    This is what the GOP propaganda channel is putting out this year?
    It’s really amazing how they and the rest of the right profit off of this ‘scared’ day.
    Newt is launching a new fear driven propaganda movie on 9/11 beck and sister sara are taking their traveling tent revival on the road to AK, complete with 200 buck a shot photo op’s with the man of many crocodile tears.
    Personally I find it all disgusting.
    Imagine FDR or Truman using Pearl Harbor for political gain and worse, profit.

    So wrap yourselves in the flag all you want, just be careful you don’t cut off the blood supply to your brains, you all really can’t spare the brain cells.

  6. aislander says:

    Larry L. Bergstrom wrote: “We were attacked by extremists who won’t rest until they destroy the very backbone of America.”

    November 4, 2008 should be remembered in the same way…

  7. dewilson says:

    I guess it all depends on what is meant by “vigilant”. No one can disagree that we should be vigilant against terrorism of any kind, foreign or domestic, religious or political. But forgive me if I read into the writer’s intent, but I suspect he, like so many self-proclaimed patriots, wants to conflate the extremist Muslims who attacked us on 9/11 with all Muslims around the world, including Muslim-Americans, and thereby judge them all ‘guilty by association’.

    Remember during WWII, how we removed Japanese Americans from their private property and forced them into internment camps because we assumed they were somehow in cahoots with the attack on Pearl Harbor, merely because of their ethnic heritage? Funny, we didn’t detain people with suspicious German heritages, with names like Eisenhower, Nimitz, and Patton.

    And Larsman, I don’t thing Christ would agree with your definition of tolerance. Nor would the founders of the Constitution who attempted to guarantee ‘tolerance’ under the first 10 amendments of the Constitution.

  8. aislander says:

    dewilson wrote: “… the founders of the Constitution who attempted to guarantee ‘tolerance’ under the first 10 amendments of the Constitution.”

    I should think the Founders would be shocked that you believe the Bill of Rights was conceived to guarantee “tolerance.” From what I have read of their thoughts on that subject, they believed they were guaranteeing freedom…

  9. iamjimbo says:

    dewilson, why should anyone care what you think Christ would agree with?

    Really… why?

  10. ” We were attacked by extremists who won’t rest until they destroy the very backbone of America. ”

    If you ask me, with all the hatred, bickering and divisiveness that this country has wallowed in for the last ten years, I’m thinking those “extremists” are winning, or have already won.

  11. dewilson says:

    aislander – Tolerance is the essence of freedom. You can not have freedom of relgion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc., unless you have a government that ensures that the freedom to exercise those rights are fully “tolerated” under law even though they may be ‘offensive’ to the majority. That means that Quakers and Mormons and Muslims have a right to practice their religion and that Neo-Nazi’s have a right to parade in Skokie, Ill, and that the minority party still can speak out against the majority, etc. . That is tolerance.

    iamj – I don’t think many who post here care anything about what I think. But since you ask, I happen to believe the Christ’s teachings are some of the greatest philosophy ever stated by man and also that he was the greatest liberal to ever live. (Although I don’t buy into the ‘miracles’). However, I most often use references to Christ to point out the great hypocrisy of self-annoited “Christians” who preach the love of Christ but use the veil of their “Christianity” to perpetrate hatred.

  12. aislander says:

    Sorry, dew, but “tolerance” has become a synonym for coercion, the antithesis of freedom…

  13. An interesting list of 9/11 commissioners, senior intelligence officers, Congressman and other government officials who don’t think the 9/11 Commission Report was completely accurate:

  14. Excellent post Dale

  15. Pray4Peace says:

    Dcr628 said:

    “If you ask me, with all the hatred, bickering and divisiveness that this country has wallowed in for the last ten years, I’m thinking those “extremists” are winning, or have already won.”

    Yeah Dale, I agree, they’ve won. And all the different sides are too busy blaming each other like whiny, competitive siblings vying for parental approval when all they’re really doing is tearing this Country asunder and giving those “extremists” good fodder for their causes.

  16. Sumner401 says:

    November 4, 2008 should be remembered in the same way…

    Remember when being unAmerican like this poster is was something to be ashamed of?
    The GOP has mainstreamed unAmericanism.

  17. Sumner401 says:

    dewilson I always enjoy your comments, your wisdom is great indeed.

  18. Uh-ho dewilson, you’re doing it again. You say,

    “iamj – I don’t think many who post here care anything about what I think. But since you ask, I happen to believe the Christ’s teachings are some of the greatest philosophy ever stated by man and also that he was the greatest liberal to ever live. (Although I don’t buy into the ‘miracles’). However, I most often use references to Christ to point out the great hypocrisy of self-annoited “Christians” who preach the love of Christ but use the veil of their “Christianity” to perpetrate hatred” —

    and so I must act again, since it is actually ludicrous to reconstruct Christ to suit your politics — are you saying that you admired a liar/lunatic? Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and didn’t deny any of the “miracles” recorded in scripture.

  19. Dewilson, I love when people try to politicize Jesus Christ. Jesus-a liberal? Nice try. As for his tolerance, please read about the money changers in HIS fathers temple, selling animals for sacrificial purposes. He, as a perfect man sent to redeem our sins, became angry and flipped their tables. Jesus has been emasculated in the past few years. He preached acceptance, and was disgusted by the individuals profiting off religion. He talked of the religious leaders of the day who would clothe themselves in sackcloth, beat themselves, and cover themselves with ashes on the street corner, praying loudly. Sound familiar? Jesus encouraged us to go off and pray in private, not for show. He also was a firm believer in personal responsibility. He did not preach a socialist view of the world, but one of tolerance and understanding. Take what you can from Jesus’ teachings-its okay, the ruling class of his day also didn’t accept him as the Son of God.

  20. This letter writer states:

    “I would prefer that we remain vigilant. If the writer wants to forget, she still has the freedom to turn off her television.”

    But wait, the previous letter writer didn’t say anything about forgetting. In fact she said:

    “We need to REMEMBER, but we need to stop the obsession that is consuming our ability to solve our problems. That is the true sadness of this day. We can’t change what happened, but we can change how we, as a country deal with it. Respect the victims by moving this country forward. It’s time.”

    Maybe Larry should have read the letter first.

  21. iamjimbo says:

    Dewilson, I think Christ’s teachings were great too. I just couldn’t care less what YOU think He meant…
    Beerboy, the commission was incomplete… Sandy Berger stuffed a bunch of documents down his pants and walked out of the national archives with them…
    Excellent point sozo.

  22. Sumner401 says:

    since it is actually ludicrous to reconstruct Christ to suit your politics -

    The hypocrisy is shining bright this morning!

  23. Roncella says:

    This is very simple for most normal Americans to understand. 9-11 happened and was conceived and planned and carried out by extreme Muslim terrorists trained in Afg.

    Muslim terrorists tried to blow a plane full of folks over 300 coming home on Christmas day, but failed. Another Muslim tried to kill Americans on the streest of New York, times square, but failed.

    As 9-11 approaches we should all pause and reflect and pray for the folks who lost their lives and their families.

    We should never forget or move on from 9-11, Never……..Let it be a reminder of how dangerous extreme Muslim Terrorists are and have been.

  24. dewilson says:

    Sozo and TMell – I am not trying to “politicize” Christ who was a political (although there is no doubt our right wing friends constantly use Christ to advance a political agenda). But he was clearly, the ultimate liberal in terms of his concern for the welfare of the common man and his disdain for the power-hungry church leaders and the oppressive rich. And one great advantage of not being bound to a particular faith is that one can take from literature and philosophy whatever contributes to wisdom an insight without accepting those things that don’t, e.g., Christ’s sermon on the mount is great philosophy but I still don’t buy that the universe was created in 6 days, Noah put all the animals on the Ark, and God gave Moses the tablets, etc. I like Jefferson’s approach to heed Christ’s words but reject the so-called miracles and silly tales of the Bible.

  25. dewilson says:

    aislander – You say, “‘tolerance'” has become a synonym for coercion, the antithesis of freedom…” This is just one more fine example of the right-wing propagandists literally changing the meaning of words to fit their agenda. To equate “tolerance” to it’s antithesis, “coercion” is an absurdity.

    The right has even tried to equate “liberalism” with “fascism” and it has gotten to the point where you can’t even have a rationale discussion with them because instead of speaking standard American English they speak in some kind of pig-latin-politico-talk. It’s nonsense of course, but their insidious cleverness makes them feel good about themselves.

  26. dewilson says:

    Sozo and Tmell – that should read “…Christ was apolitical…”

  27. Sumner401 says:

    the right-wing propagandists literally changing the meaning of words to fit their agenda.

    Even conservative has many new meanings for them far right.

    They redefine words to fit their lies and agenda all the time, when called, they ask if you know the meaning.

  28. MarksonofDarwin says:

    Speaking of redefining words:

    “….the ultimate liberal in terms of his concern for the welfare of the common man and his disdain for the power-hungry church leaders and the oppressive rich.”


    This is why we have to put qualifying words in front of the word liberal, eg. classical, neo, or social, so everyone can understand your meaning.

    Besides….I don’t really see modern liberals doing any of those beautiful things. Well, OK….they TALK about them, but do just the opposite, claiming the ends justify the means.

    **Cap and Trade will hit the “common man” the hardest?
    Well, now…that’s too bad, but the ends justify the means.
    **A huge tax increase on gas will disproportionately affect the poor?
    They’ll thank us in the end…because we’ve justified it in our minds.

    I could go on….but I know it will do me no good….

  29. dewilson… you say “Christ’s sermon on the mount is great philosophy but I still don’t buy that the universe was created in 6 days, Noah put all the animals on the Ark, and God gave Moses the tablets, etc.”

    But the brilliant philosopher on the mount DID believe these things, so how brilliant was he, really? And don’t forget, he said he was the son of God besides. And that the only way to the Father –that would be God–was through him…so… he’s quite a guy this Jesus…looney as the day is long but also full of wisdom when it suits you dewilson?

  30. dewilson says:

    Sozo – You believe many things that I do not, but I do not consider you looney for it. Christ may well have believed those things and Joseph Smith believed he was a modern day prophet, but I suspect you don’t accept his “truths”.

    But perhaps you could explain something to me – Once you accept a given religion on faith, are you bound to accept the literal word of every scriptural passage of that religion or can you make an intelligent assessment that perhaps the universe was not created in 6 days? And if you do accept every word, how to you deal with other denominations that have different wordings in the Bible and theologians who have varying translations and interpretations? I guess the real question is, is your faith a source of enlightenment or an intellectual prison?

  31. iamjimbo says:

    May I sozo?

    Rest easy Dew, your salvation does not hinge on whether or not you believe the earth was created in 6- 24hr periods.

  32. iamjimbo says:

    Just a reminder. The thread topic is…

    “9/11: Good reason we must never forget”

  33. dewilson says:

    Thanks for the nice thought, iamj, but since I don’t believe in an afterlife, the prospect of salvation doesn’t have much meaning to me.

    I do wonder if those who hate Muslims, even those who are God-fearing and peace-loving, will be able to get salvation themselves.

  34. I understand and even value the ongoing discussion around biblical interpretation, dewilson BUT there’s not much wiggle room around Christ’s own words (unless you’re in the crowd whose hubris has permitted them to rewrite even those).

    Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the Church. It’s one thing to disagree with a peer, or even another human being claiming to be a scholar. Quite another to say take on Jesus Himself.

    Let’s make the analogy legitimate. You say you may disagree with me without thinking I’m a lunatic. Great. Would you respect me if I said that I was One with the Father, as Christ did? That no one can come to the Father except by me?

    I’m sure you see the difference.

  35. dewilson says:

    Sozo – You are obviously working on the assumptions that a) God exists; b) Jesus is the son of God; c) Jesus is the way to salvation.

    I don’t happen to accept those assumptions. Those are matters of faith that the vast majority of the world do not accept either.

    I am saying that much of what Christ had to say is of value to mankind as how we should relate to one another. The miracles are irrelevant to that, and to my mind only serve to perpetrate the power of the clergy, which is almost soley dependent on their ability to play the role of “intermediaries” between the lay people and God. Afterall, it is they who “translate” to the church members what is “truth”. If folks start questioning the miracles and phony “science” that is preached, then the clergy has lost its audience and its power. Thus, knowledge and intellect is the enemy of the Church.

  36. You still come off as admiring a con man dewilson. Any way you cut it.

  37. dewilson-even though the words ‘clergy, layman and tolerance’ (of what?) are not found in the KJV, NKJV Latin Vulgate or Geneva Bible, or the Gutenberg German translation, or that of the Nicean fathers, etc. much of modern archeology itself sheds light on the historic validity of the Bible, ie the 1948 Qumron Dead Sea Scrolls, the 1840 Ethiopian Coptic Book of Enoch (referred to in the book of Jude) and the 1843 discovery of the Syriac translation of the Book of Jasher (referred to in II Samuel and the Book of Joshua). Regarding miracles, you may want to visit any hospital and inquire of any doctor of unexplained healings from impossible medical situations in which prayer to God through Jesus was involved. I will include myself in that catagory…

  38. iamjimbo says:

    Dewilson, you are obviously working on the assumption people hate islam.
    dewilson wrote on 02/02/2010 01:01:20 PM:
    Roncella – I’d like to think we can have an honest debate on the facts and even conclusions drawn from the same facts without assuming the other guy is blinded by hatred or a dupe of his own ideology.
    Oh, and if you don’t believe in an afterlife and therefore salvation hasn’t much meaning to you, how/why would you “wonder if those who hate Muslims, even those who are God-fearing and peace-loving, will be able to get salvation themselves.” ???

    contradict much?

  39. dewilson says:

    Sozo – No I don’t believe the ‘real’ Jesus was a con man. But there is no telling how many words were put in his mouth by others. You might note that the earlier books of the Bible had fewer ‘miracles’ and they seemed to expand with the later writings, all of which were written decades after Jesus’ death. Like so many ‘legends’ they got better with the telling as time went on and the ‘tellers of the tales’ embelished things to draw a bigger audience.

    iamj – When people assume that those who wish to build the Cordoba house 2 blocks from ground zero somehow share the guilt of those who attacked us on 9/11, then yes, I believe they hate Islam because they want to blame all members of an entire religion for the acts of a few, hateful zealots.

    As for the salvation issue, sorry if I sounded contradictory; I was trying to make the point that Christians who hate might not find the salvation that they believe is coming to them. Obviously, I am not a candidate as I (like most of the world population) do not accept Christ as my savior. However, I do believe my tolerance of God-fearing and peace-loving Muslims is far more in line with Chirst’s teachings than the words of hatred we hear from those who cite scripture to annoint themselves in righteousness.

  40. By your logic, dewilson, someone else might have made up the Sermon on the Mount and for that matter everything else attributed to Jesus.

    I’m sorry, but you are simply doing what so many have done in recent decades…fishing out those things in the Bible that suit you and skipping stones over the things you don’t care for.

    As a student of the Bible, I am weary of people doing that. Studying the Bible isn’t for sissies, nor is it for politicians, and yes, I include those on the right who misuse it as well.

    I am surprised by how many folks here assume a posture of knowledge about the Q’ran as well, lifting bits here and there to make their cases, whether on the left or right.

    This is why I put a lot of stock in commentary recently from Muslims about Muslims, and I’m speaking about the two I heard say that the bulilding of Cordoba Center was, in fact, insensitive and political — and a very bad choice for Rauf, et. al to make.

  41. dewilson says:

    Sozo – You are absolutely right about my assumptions. Someone else may have made up the words of Jesus and/or they became better with the story telling. But it’s like Shakespeare; someone else may have authored his plays but it does not diminish the art or the message.

    As far as “fishing from the Bible”, I guess you could describe it that way because I do not believe it is the inerrant word of God. While it offers great philosophy it is also full of fables and metaphors that provide theologians many hours of happy debate as to their meaning, and insofar as giving an insight to science, e.g., creation and man’s evolution (Eve was created from Adams rib??) it lacks a certain something.

    I think Christians would be far better off to agree on the essence of Jesus’ teachings regarding man’s relationship to man and leave the rest to those who want to count angels dancing on the head of a pin. But of course, to deny miracles and dispute irrational science is to “blaspheme” and severely threatens the influence of the Church and clergy. Hence the heavy penalty of guilt is levied upon those who raise rational questions about irrational concepts.

  42. Carry on, dewilson, Just wanted to make sure we were clear about this person you claim to admire so much. As for me, I’ll take the word of scholars over the centuries and accept his words as remembered by the gospel writers. I think it quite good that each has a slightly different account so that we can rest assured they were not manufactured to “match” up perfectly.

    The essence of Christ’s teachings, including his statements about being One with the Father are in all accounts, and of course his belief in those crazy stories from the OT!

  43. Back to the thread, if you have been watching some of the tributes and memorials today, you will readily see why we must never forget the horror of 9/11, nor grow lazy in our vigilance regarding the goals and objectives of jihadists.

    I was heartsick today to see those images again; to imagine the utter shock and horror of being caught off guard in this way on a beautiful fall morning in New York City. To hear replays of the phone calls from loved ones on those planes; to see desperate people leap from the 110th floor of the tower because of the excruciating heat and the abject fear of what was about to happen to them.

    To see the ordination of this day, the day we would have to explain to our kids why we can’t always trust those boarding planes with us; why we must all undergo close scrutiny now because 19 men made their way into our world of relative safety and changed everything.

    For those of you ready to blame folks for being hyper-vigilant and mistrustful, why not put the blame where it belongs, squarely on the heads of those Muslim extremists who slaughtered friends and family right before our eyes.

  44. iamjimbo says:

    I think it’s a stretch (I’m putting it nicely) to claim someone is a hater because they distrust another.
    But hey, don’t let me spoil your apparent sole pass time. Have fun.

  45. I seem to recall many, many posts from the Right (and maybe even ij) labeling folks Bush-haters……..

    but that was their sole past time of a past time.

  46. iamjimbo says:

    Yep, funny how times change. I recall folks complaing about others blaming Clinton and then the other side complaining about them brining up Clinton… Kooky huh?

  47. dewilson says:

    Sozo – Like so many others, you are using the tragedy of 9/11 to justify your bigtory. No on disputes we should be vigilant about terrorist activities and no one disputes the tragedy of 9/11. What is un-Christian and un-American is the guilt-by-association mentality that because the 9/11 attackers were Muslim that every Muslim is a potential terrorist. We used the same rationale to interr Japanese-Americans in WWII.

    Also, in our recent history, our greatest domestic terrorist organization was the KKK that heaped vicious and horrendous attacks on African-Americans, from lynchings to burning their homes down, randam attacks on innocent blacks or just bringing stark terror to their families by burning crosses on the front lawn. These terrorists also carried the American flag (and probably the Confederate flag) and the Bible, and even had crosses on their robes. Should all blacks therefore be suspect of anyone who associates themselves with Christianity or should they be concerned only with those Christian bigots who justify their evil acts with a warped sense of their religion?

    And why do so many of our Conservative friends fall all over themselves to defend our invasion of Iraq, costing us our blood and treasure, in order to liberate the millions of Muslims from the tyranny of Saddam Huessein?

  48. Roncella says:

    Diwilson, how about getting your head out from the sand you buried it in.

    Have you forgotten, the times square Muslim terrorist that failed.

    Have you forgotten the Christmas day Muslim terrorist crouch bomber who fail to blow the plane full of innocents trying to get home for Christmas.

    Have you forgotten the ft hood, texas col, an American Muslim Terrorist who suceeded in murdering 12 miltary personnel.

    Stop calling those folks who are worried and concerned for their safety Racists, you are blinded with your own biases. Shame on you…..

  49. Sumner401 says:

    Talking points, where would some people be with out them?

  50. As roncella points out dewilson, there have been enough subsequent terrorist acts to create extreme vigilance where Muslims are concerned, and I actually feel bad about the decent Muslims out there who have no part in any of this — two of whom I’ve turned to repeatedly for understanding…and quoted on this blog.

    If it makes you feel better to think me a bigot, I cannot stop you, but the truth is I have questions and concerns, and with men like the Imam in NYC, Rauf, I am skeptical. I do not think that makes me a bigot. I think that makes me cautious and concerned.

    Take it as you will.

  51. dewilson says:

    Sozo – You are very good at rationalizing, but you are a bigot by definition if you assume the Muslims building the community center are somehow linked to the 9/11 tragedy merely because they share a common religion. And I suspect your skeptism arises from the FOX News folks and other righties who are trying to discredit Rauf, just as they are trying to connect Obama to Islam. It’s all the same old hate & fear game that the right has always used to advance a political agenda. The Irish, the Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, Communists, immigrants and Muslims, all have felt the wrath of the demagogery of the right.

  52. Al Qaeda has killed more Muslims in Arab lands then anyone else.

    But sozo, et al, is convinced that ALL Muslims are suspect and that she isn’t acting like a bigot.

  53. As you wish boys, you are set in your way of thinking about this. I will continue to treat human beings with respect and grace regardless of their race or religion, AND I will continue to learn what I can about the disparity between the teachings I’ve read so far in the Q’ran and the ways in which moderate Muslims reconcile the disparity.

    Meanwhile, make room up there on that high horse of Superiority.

    P.S. Something you might want to consider though is that people really can take issue with a belief system without wishing the practioners of it dead.

  54. Roncella says:

    Dewilson, You never answered me about the three or four and theres more, attempts by Muslim Terrorists to kill Americans. All were carriied out or attimpted by Muslim Terrorists.

    Dewilson, How do you explain away the violence and hate they are inflicting on all Americans ??

    Sozo, don’t let some of the small minded biased folks who post here put you on the defensive, you are exactly right and express opinions that about 70% of all Americans feel, according to all the major polls.

  55. I see today where Imam Rauf says he would never have proposed the building of the center had he known it would create such a firestorm. If that is true, it seems logical that he would happily alter the plans now.

    We’ve turned something relatively simple into something bizarre. Rudy G’s comment is appropriate:

    On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani chastised the pastor [Jones] for threatening to burn the Quran and the imam for locating his Islamic center near Ground Zero. “In either case, common sense and a real dedication to healing that these men of God would theoretically have would tell you not to do it because you’re hurting too many people,” he said.

    It’s never been about rights; it’s always been about reconciliation and healing and what that looks like.

  56. Sumner401 says:

    Sozo, don’t let some of the small minded biased folks who post here put you on the defensive

    How ironic.

  57. Sumner401 says:

    Funny thing is for a couple of years it didn’t ‘create a firestorm’, that only came about because the GOP needed a new wedge issue to stir up the mindless.
    It seems to have worked.

  58. Roncella says:

    Sumner, You may not be aware of the fact that they are still finding body parts at Ground Zero of our fallen heros from 9-11.

    Why the double talking Imam won’t spare all the Americans especially those who lost love ones on 9-11 the agony of re-living that day and choose another location, since he is so concerned about building bridges to other faiths and wanting peace for all, (according to him

    Sumner, the GOP does not need a wedge issue to gain many many votes in this coming November election cycle. Are You for Real ??

    The GOP just needs to run against Bankrupt ObamaCare, Pelosi, Reid, Boxer, and so many other extreme liberals who are recking our economy and our Country.

  59. dewilson says:

    Roncella, I don’t dispute the acts of terrorism by Muslims. My objection is the overblown (and calculated) Islamophobia that wants to connect every Muslim-American with the acts of terrorism by religious zealots.

    Like I’ve said before, its got the same stench of anti-Semitism so ruthlessly and effectively employed by Nazi Germany to delegitimize and dehumanize them. And it’s quite clearly the intent of the American right wing to also connect President Obama to Islam and thereby delegitimize him.

    I also dispute the phony “equivalency” of building a community center in NY by Muslims and the outrageous and hateful provocation by a Chistian zealot to burn the Koran.

  60. Now, if they could just create an issue about gays getting married by an Imam near ground zero they would surely sweep the election!

  61. iamjimbo says:

    “gays getting married by an Imam “… LOL.

    Pretty ironic… don’t you think?

    Maybe ironic isn’t the word I’m looking for…

  62. You’d best leave the gay rights and Islamic tolerance thing be, bBoy or you WILL get yourself into a mess.

  63. Enter Faiz Khan, stage left:

    In his interview with CNN’s Soledad O’Brien on Wednesday, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf defended his plans to build a mosque and Islamic center near Ground Zero, saying “You cannot heal a trauma by walking away from it. We have to sit down. We have to talk about it. We have to dialogue about it and find a way to move through it and beyond it.”

    [Sounds so decent and righteous, how dare we question the imam?]

    But a trove of videos and writings available on the Internet shows that a longtime partner of Rauf believes the 9/11 terror attacks were “an inside job” by U.S. government and corporate interests, the Investigative Project on Terrorism found.

    [I have seen footage of speeches made by the esteemed physician; his position is well known.]

    As it turns out, he has played the truther bit to the fullest over the last 9 years, beginning Sept. 12, 2001 and is a close associate of Imam Rauf’s.

    Have I mentioned that while I do not have animosity for Muslims in general, I have insisted on remaining cautious regarding the Imam; I have felt as though there is the distinct possibility of duplicity in this supposed peacemaker?

    And while my caution and concern have been labeled here by some as “bigotry” …

    I shall continue to view him with caution, as will other intelligent, thoughtful people.

    The race card; the bigot card, the “we’re-kinder-and more compassionate-card — play them all if you like or consider the possibility that you might be mistaken.

  64. Just more examples of brain dead liberals. Don’t waste your time Roncella.

  65. Something no media has covered till now:

    There were two Islamic prayer rooms IN Ground Zero before it became Ground Zero.


  66. This is a very sad story in the NYT and just serves to show the diabolical aspect of what those terrorists did that day.

    Ironically, bBoy this just serves to demonstrate how mistaken you and dewilson have been in labeling everyone bigots and bastards lately.

    Apparently no one minded that Muslims working at the WTC had a prayer room; no one bothered them, no one tried to oust them or blacken their names. They were permitted to go and pray in accordance with their religious practices. All was well.

    Sadly, their extremist cohorts included them in the massacre and forever changed the face of relations between Muslims and the West.

    Muslim terrorists did this, NOT the big bad Western boogey men of the US corporate world.

  67. This is so well-stated it’s worth posting. The question was asked of B. Goldberg…Why are liberals inclined to support the building of this mosque?

    “I think it’s because one of the most fundamental delusions of liberalism- whether it’s the people in the media or out of the media because there’s no difference.

    Liberals in the media are the same as liberals outside of the media. One of their fundamental delusions is that they have a monopoly on compassion and taking this side of this issue enables them to show how compassionate they are because they are sticking up for ‘oppressed’ – and I am putting that word in gigantic quotation marks – American Muslims. It makes them feel, once again, that they are looking out for the underdogs.

    And all of this, whether it’s Affirmative Action or a dozen other issues, mostly makes them feel better about themselves. And the icing on the cake is that many prominent conservatives are against the mosque in that location. And now they can say, ‘You see? We’re the good ones. We’re always the good ones, y’know. And they’re the haters and the bigots and the ignorant people.”

    This need some people have for self-affirmation is a powerful thing, and oftena roadblock to reason.

  68. dewilson says:

    Sozo – for the record I have never referred to anyone as a bastard and never would. It’s a meaningless insult.

    And yes, I have used the term ‘bigot’, and I define that as a person who judges all people of a group or classification by the offensive actions of others in the group, i.e., guilt by association, which of course is the basis for anti-Semitism, racism, Islamophopia, and now apparently, a rising tide of “liberalophopia”.

    You can claim “caution” all you want, but it is nothing short of bigotry to deny the NY Muslim-Americans their right to religious freedom because of the acts of some Muslim zealots.

    And please spare us the psuedo-psychology of B. Goldberg in his mocking little diatribe of what motivates liberals. Actually, I would be more interested in your description of what defines a “conservative”.

  69. Sorry for the profanity, dewilson; I was going for a bit of alliteration…poetic license.

    For the what…hundredth time maybe? .. NO ONE here has suggested denying these folks their rights. People HAVE asked that they use their freedom to make a different choice.

    Big difference.

    Re political definitions, I won’t speak for others. I know what I stand for, but you shouldn’t judge anyone else by me.


  70. In fact, you shouldn’t judge anyone, right dewilson? “Judge not lest ye be judged!” ;0)

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