The recent (election-inspired) angst over the Islamic cultural center in New York, the idiot zealot pastor in Florida planning to burn Qurans, and the letter writer who proclaims that Islam is “stuck in the Middle Ages” (TNT, 9-8) are all proof of the stunning level of ignorance of most Americans regarding the second largest (and in terms of actual cohesion by far the largest) religion in the world.
Obviously these people have never actually visited the Muslim world. The glittering towers, architectural wonders and open friendliness of Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Istanbul, Doha, Manama, Kuwait City, Cairo, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur (to name but a few of the great cities of Islamic culture) reveal such opinions for the drivel they are.
By comparison, our American cities are dirty, dilapidated and dangerous.
The vast majority of Muslims embrace “American” core values of equality, liberty and pursuit of happiness, while even adapting “Western” culture to their own social structure. Most dress Western, work in modern industries, drive cars, fly in airplanes, listen to rock music, watch television, have a good sense of humor, love their children and try to live in peaceful harmony with the world.
That a tiny few Muslims are violently anti-Western should be no surprise, particularly in light of the provocation of Western, primarily corporate, interference within their cultures. If America were assailed by similar thuggish foreign interests, robbing us blind and imposing its will upon us, the response would be violent indeed.
Annie, you forgot one thing, while visiting those marvelous countries, you returned to this dirty, dilapidated and dangerous country, why didn’t you just stay in that wonderful utopia that you seem to love so much? But, wishful thinking aside, you liberals always return to the place where you know that you are safe, prosperous and can talk all of the nonsense you want without having your head handed to you in a basket. You liberals are so predictable.
I’m thinking Annie is very young, and perhaps ignorant of all the horror izlam is responsible for in this world…
Will my passport get me into Iran???
ah yes, dirty dilapidated us.
Annie, Very good letter. Having lived in the middle east for over 9 years, I agree with you on everything but your comment about dirty cities ( they have some as well ). I always find those like frosty amusing when they invite those of us that find fault with our country to live somewhere else. If our faults are not mentioned it’s unlikely they will disappear on there own. I lived in Syria for about one year, and I felt completely safe, even when walking around late at night. Have you ever walked downtown Tacoma after night fall? If so were you relaxed in doing so?
BlaineCGarver: Realizing you were directing your comment to Annie, I must say that as I agree with her letter, that I am neither young ( around 60 ) and am not at all ignorant of the horror and good that “religion” is responsible for in this world.
FYI, if you do visit an islamic country, don’t make the mistake of asking where a good spot to get stoned is…
Annie has the “grass is always greener on the other side of the mountain” syndrome.
I think that after she lived there for a year, she would be very ready to come home.
Annie didn’t say anything about loving the Muslim cities that she listed, she only enumerated some factual differences between them, and the cities in the U.S.
You neo-cons are so predictable and nonsensical. You take everything you read out of context and melt it down into something to use as a strawman argument in order to justify and perpetuate your hate. Its no secret from which air-waves you learn those pig-headed, sub-human tactics, or as Annie says your “stunning level of ignorance”.
“…neo-cons are so predictable and nonsensical”…”perpetuate your hate”…”those pig-headed, sub-human tactics…”
Does that make you feel better?
I was name-calling? When?
All mythology (christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism, greek, roman, pagan, wiccan) is equal garbage.
The tea partiers can’t handle any negativity towards white people predilections (christianity) or the great ol’ US of A regardless of how egregious (slavery, torture, genocide–giving natives small pox laced blankets–, illegal wars–iraq, iran/contra, etc.)
I am still amazed that the sheeple of the tea party are so enamored with the likes of Glen Beck and Orin Hatch who believe in peep stones, 5000 year old Egyptian gold tablets buried in New York, Lamanites, etc. Who really believes this crap and who can believe anything from anyone who claims to believe this crap. Now, not to pick on the mormons (except it is so exceedingly easy to ridicule their beliefs), the rest of the mythology I mentioned above is equally as ridiculous.
The tea partiers of some of the most illogical, uneducated, and ill-informed people ever to come together as a political group in the history of our country. They absolutely detest science, the Nobel Prize, unions, the minimum wage, the eeoc, the naacp, the epa, L&I, the Dept. of Energy, the Dept of Education, and any other government regulation or entity designed to protect the non-rich and non-powerful. They hate all government benefits–except their own. It’s astonishing how many tea partiers want social security abolished–yet they are receiving social security! They hate “universal health care” yet they are receiving medicare.
Tea partiers actually believe it will help our country to cut taxes for the top 1%. This makes absolutely no sense in a time of ballooning deficits caused by their policies in the first place. (Bush and Reagan).
Well Annie, you have written a good letter, one that is filled with truth. You can tell that by the attacks on you from the far right extremists.
Wear their hate as a badge of honor.
nwcolorist: I was merely referring to the fact that you typed the same thing as I did, but in quotes. I didn’t mean to either say or infer you had been calling names. My apologies. Cheers!
Cirrus, thanks for explaining. No hard feelings here.
Muslims are clueless about Americans. Cartoons anyone?
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
….. martyrs…. Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. – 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. – Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. – Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. – 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. – 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme – 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. – 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. – 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. – 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. – 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. – 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. – 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. – 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah – he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. – 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. – 48:25
Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. – 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. – 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. – 98:51
Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
KORAN promises of houris in heaven:
Single-minded slaves of Allah… will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. – Surah 37:40-49
Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey’s end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. – 38:50-54
Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another…. And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. – 44:51-57
Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight… reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes… and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire…. – 52:17-22
…Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand…. Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them…. – 55:54-56
Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight… reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths… and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do…. Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. – 56:11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes… virgin-pure and undefiled.
Koran “sharia” punishments:
As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. – Surah 5:38
-Dr. Peter Hammond.
Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.
Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.
When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.
Here’s how it works.
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is
the case in:
United States — Muslim 0.6%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby
securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed
cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%
100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:
Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 100%
Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.
‘Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe;
the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. — Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’
It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national
courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death.
Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.
Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Some say Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.
~Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book – “Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat”
I think being clueless goes both ways. At the same time I see Americans being much more tolerant of Muslims then the other way around–evidenced by the Mosque a few blocks from Ground Zero. Are there any Christian churches in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Dubai—I think not. If these Muslim countries are so bad then tell me this: Why did they leave and come to this filthy country?
Haviing spent approximately 15 yrs in the Middle East i’ll agree with Annie to an extent. However she fails to mention that most of these countries, namely Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Kuwait, along with Saudi and Oman have been built on the backs of imported foreign labor, mostly Pakistani’s, Bangladeshi’s, Indians, Filipino’s and Sri Lankans. The oil money and royal family members ensure that most all the “menial” tasks are done by imported labor.
Sure there is some nice architecture and for the most part they’re safer than in most US cities. I wonder if she agrees with Islam’s conservative view on female servitude? Requiring a male family member to escort her outside the home, not being able to drive, hold a job, walking a step and a half behind and to the right of her husband?
Granted, there are some that are more secular. But overall Islam is still a very conservative religion.
Both the Quran and the Bibile espouse violence and death to non-believers. Muslims and Christians are more alike than they realize.
The difference between modern christianity, as practiced today, and modern islam?
Turn away a Christian missionary, and you skip out on getting a free Bible.
Turn away a muslim, and they cut off your head.
What a beautiful religion!
bvask5 said,
Muslims and Christians are more alike than they realize.
Yes they are, I”m in complete agreement.
Sure they have great buildings and such that has nothing to do with their religion.
Agree with me or me and mohammad will blow your family up because Allah said I could.
Annie, instead of cherry-picking a few “Westernized” muslim cities for your white-washed comparison, lets look at the larger picture, shall we:
The combined annual GDP of 57 Muslim countries remains under $2 trillion. America, just by itself, produces goods and services worth $10.4 trillion; China $5.7 trillion, Japan $3.5 trillion and Germany $2.1 trillion. Even India’s GDP is estimated at over $3 trillion.
Oil rich Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth $430 billion; Netherlands alone has a higher annual GDP while Buddhist Thailand produces goods and services worth $429 billion.
Muslims are 22 percent of the world population and produce less than five percent of global GDP, and the Muslim countries’ GDP as a percent of the global GDP continues to go down over time. And the Arabs, it seems, are particularly worse off. According to the United Nations’ Arab Development Report: “Half of Arab women cannot read; One in five Arabs live on less than $2 per day; Only 1 percent of the Arab population has a personal computer, and only half of 1 percent use the Internet; Thirty percent of the Arab workforce is unemployed, as of 2009; The average growth rate of the per capita income during the preceding 25 years in the Arab world was only one-half of 1 percent per annum, worse than anywhere but sub-Saharan Africa.”
The planet’s poorest countries include Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Somalia, Nigeria, Pakistan and Mozambique. At least six of the poorest of the poor are countries with a Muslim majority.
Conclusion: Muslims of the world are among the poorest of the poor.
Now lets look at the 10 poorest cities in the US:
(U.S. Census Bureau, 2006 American Community Survey, August 2007)
1) Detroit , MI
Milwaukee WI
2) Buffalo , NY
3) Cincinnati , OH
4) Cleveland , OH
5) Miami , FL
6) St. Louis , MO
7) El Paso , TX
9) Philadelphia PA
10) Newark , NJ
Given the above data on muslim countries, we needn’t waste time comparing since we know even the poorest of the poor in America are better off – by far – than the average muslim, worldwide.
But these poor, dirty cities all have one thing in common; democrat rule.
In fact, the average number of years since the last Republican mayor for all ten cities is 60 years – excluding Miami and El Paso which have never had a Republican Mayor.
Conclusion: democrats of the US are among the poorest of the poor. And would anyone care to argue that these 10 democrat ruled cities are not amongst the most “dirty, dilapidated and dangerous” cities in the US? I doubt it, though one could add a few other democrat-ruled cities to the list as well.
The difference, of course, is that here in the US the folks who live in these conditions have available to them this little advantage called “choice”. That they continue to use it as a self flagellating club has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with their “choice”… in political parties.
jintz: Extremely well documented, educational and eye-opening comments. You are certainly one who knows what you’re talking about. Thanks for taking the time to post.
I look forward to hearing from regulars here who like to say that their opponents never have any studied input.. Sum? bBoy? I don’t know why as I’m sure all they will do is say your sources are evil.
bvask and ipsut…you both need to study up before making foolish statements like the ones you made here.
Another liberal genius from the harbor. I think it’s time to raise the bridge fees again.
So what did I get from this: Annie loves the cult of Islam, so therefore,
Annie hates the gays,
Annie endorses bigotry,
Annie likes women being treated like second class citizens, and
Annie is still foolish enough to think religion is a good thing.
So dear Annie, let my liberal gay tuchas be clear about this, I HOPE THEY BEHEAD YOU BEFORE ME !
sozo – I could link you to some very well documented antisemitical hate sites. jintz’s postings are different only in the target of the hate.
Many comments from the right say that they’re against the Koran burning. These same people say that they’re only against the mosque that happens to be near “ground zero” in New York.
Yet they go on endlessly chastising the Muslim religion and it’s people and characterizing them as being out to do nothing but behead us unsuspecting westerners.
Then in the next breath they agree that only radicals are responsible for these atrocities, and the vast majority are peace loving.
Which is it? Are we out to condemn the whole religion and it’s followers, or are we smart enough to condemn only those who commit these atrocities in the name of their religion?
LOL Annie you have just proven that you truly have no idea what Islam is really about. In reality it is not a religion, but a political ideology. As to whether some nations in the Islamic world have new glittery cities, so what? Most of the people are oppressed by Islam, women especially.
Polago, I would hope that most Americans don’t reject Muslims out of hand. But don’t try to stuff people in pre-conceived holes. It’s not that simple. There are probably many Muslims that would be agnostic, or secuilar, if they had the choice, just like the Christian population is not monolithic.
And being sympathetic to Islam doesn’t mean you can’t be against their building a mosque at ground zero. People are sorting this thing out, and it takes time.
As was pointed out earlier, many of the poorest nations a predominantly Muslim. Poverty and ignorance are found together, and make a fertile breeding ground for extremism. One solution to this is education. Another is creating a climate where businesses can prosper.
Fair enough, nwcolorist. But I still contend that the rhetoric doesn’t jibe with the more rational conclusions that many want us to buy into.
Poverty and ignorance are found together, and make a fertile breeding ground for extremism.
That explains the red states and the people that live in them.
Obviously Annie never saw “the Stoning of Saroya M.”
How sad all the ugliness of some of these comments……..Ignorance always breeds contempt for those who celebrate learning and keep an open mind…..Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck have made stupid fashionable, but hang in there………These people generally don’t want to learn, don’t want to grow and need to manufacture an enemy to justify their fear of being exposed as fools…….The class bully usually gets healthy and productive—the ones that don’t become far right conservatives!!!! Hang in there–lovely, thoughtful letter.
“These people generally don’t want to learn, don’t want to grow and need to manufacture an enemy to justify their fear of being exposed as fools”…
Ironic that you invoked the Palin/Beck “enemy”…
“That a tiny few Muslims are violently anti-Western” , yet if a few korans are burned (or the muslim recruitment center moved) there would be a national security issue… is a contradictory statement at best.
Jintz posts, “Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.”
Dang we could be talking about Fly fishing, Mormons, or Bicycle Riders!
Fear them! The next time you see a bike rider with a fishing pole…RUN!! Run for your lives!!!
jimbo — You’re mixing up your issues. The first revolves around what “they” do to us. The second concerns what “we” do to us.
If we allow events to rob us of our core values, then we have no one to blame for the consequences but ourselves.
Our troops rely on the support of the mainstream Muslim/Islamic community, Iammjimmbo. Simply losing that level of support could compromise the safety of our troops.
Everything isn’t as black and white, hot or cold, as you portray them to be.
We’re all in this together, and we need each others support if we are to succeed. But maybe you want failure, so you can justify discrediting this administration.
Polago says: “But maybe you want failure, so you can justify discrediting this administration.”
Grouse says: Did you mean something similar to this quote from democratic underground?
“I realize that not every GI Joe was 100peeercent behind Prseeedent Booosh going into this war; but I do know that that is what an overwhelming number of them and their famlies screamed in the face of protesters who were trying to protect these kids. Well, there is more than one way to be “dead” for your country. They are not only not accompishing squat in Iraq, they are doing crap nothing for the safety, defense of the US of A over there directly. But “indirectly” they are doing a lot.
The only way to get rid of this slime bag WASP-Mafia, oil barron ridden cartel of a government, this assault on Americans and anything one could laughingly call “a democracy”, relies heavily on what a sh*t hole Iraq turns into. They need to die so that we can be free. Soldiers usually did that directly–i.e., fight those invading and harming a country. This time they need to die in defense of a lie from a lying adminstration to show these ignorant, dumb Americans that Bush is incompetent. They need to die so that Americans get rid of this deadly scum. It is obscene, Barbie Bush, how other sons (of much nobler blood) have to die to save us from your Rosemary’s Baby spawn and his ungodly cohorts.” — Starpass
Annie, I don’t know your age and experience level awareness of the World. You sound like a very young inexperienced person.
Let me give you a little advice. Love Your Country. There has never been a Country like America in history. It offers so much opportunity and hope for millions of those with the energy and will to make a successful future for them selves and their families.
I don’t believe there is another Country with as many different races, religions all living together peacefully, and respecting each other.
You need to read alot more history and learn about the many different Countries and their Religions and Governments.
Its very interesting to note that many Muslims through out the world are already burning the American flag in protest to the Minister in Florida who is planning a Goran buring event on 9-11.
Apparently the Muslims don’t understand how special the flag is to Most Americans, how we cherish it , love it and respect it.
LOL: Who said Christians hated anybody non-white?? The Southern Baptists might take offense to that one. Thank God for free speech, I hope America grows a set and, for a change, gives izlam a little jolt and a reason to fear offending Americans….As I mentioned yesterday, I hope they roast some pork over the fading embers of their “holy” book.
Yes, grouse, that’s the type of desire for failure I meant.
Thanks.
And BlaineCGarver proves the point that the far Right wants the Koran burning to happen.
A holy war is right up his alley.
Polago: What the heck. I’m not trying to hide that fact. I love it when Libs think they have the right to decide who’s allowed to exercise there rights to speak their opinions. I’ll bet you’re one of those that whines when someone tries to stop you from burning the American Flag….
I think it’s funny how people paste information from various sources, and suggest that they have a real understanding of the subject at hand.
Many times it’s a forwarded email sent from a friend..or pulled from a website.
It’s unfortunate that few people question the integrity of the information they’re given, and it’s outright sad that some buy into the nonsense.
Don’t be a lemming. Question the information given to you. There is such a thing as context; there is such a thing as misinformation.
“Don’t be a lemming. Question the information given to you.”
Yea! … and that would have been great advice for Dan Rather.
No writnstuff, you missed the point.
If only “a tiny few Muslims are violently anti-Western”, how could they possibly become a national security threat … because a couple books got burned???
Hate Schmate, bBoy…
Let me ask you a very important quesiton. Are there things we SHOULD hate? If so, what are they?
It is obvious that Annie has never traveled to the laundry list of cities she cited, or if she did, she probably never left the Hilton. I have been to many of the places she listed and I did not find the majority of them to be bastions of open friendliness (although Turkey was, in my experience). Yes, some of them did have glittering towers and architectural wonders, usually paid for by oil money from SUV-driving Americans, but shiny skyscrapers and showy monuments do not a democracy make. It is the ideals that the West espouses that make nations great.
The Islamic world in general does not value equality, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness unless they are devout male Muslims (And even then, find me an Arab shiek who believes he is an equal with a day laborer). Dressing in Western clothing, working in modern industries, driving cars, flying in airplanes, listening to rock music, watching television, having a good sense of humor, and loving their children do not necessarily reflect “American” values – these actions can be done in many repressive regimes the world over. However, Muslims in majority Muslim nations typically do not try to live in peaceful harmony with the world; repression against women and minorities is fairly commonplace. If Annie indeed traveled as extensively as I have in the Islamic world, she would not have experienced the unfettered and equal freedoms that Muslim men exclusively enjoy.
Furthermore, Annie falls victim to one of the biggest myths concerning the roots of violence that is pandemic in much of the Islamic world – that their violent tendencies are a direct result of misguided American policy. Muslims have been attacking their neighbors long before there was a United States, and long before the West launched its first Crusade against Islam in the 11th Century. Islam has been expanding into its neighbors’ lands ever since its humble beginnings in the 7th Century, nearly 1,400 years ago. Much of the world that is synonymous with Islam itself – Egypt, Yemen, Iran, Turkey, Syria, and North Africa – was once home to significant Christian and Jewish populations. It was only after Muslims invaded Anatolia that the West fought back – and this was long after Muslims had conquered Christians in Spain and Sicily. This Muslim conquest was not driven by suspicion of the Western world, nor poverty, nor other invented grievances, such as the Palestinian problem. It was driven by a sheer desire to control how other people lived their lives. Islam means “submission to God” and true Muslims believe it is their foremost task in life to achieve it for others – by assimilation, coercion, or the sword.
Nicely stated luftmann.
Prepare to be called grossly mis-informed and a devout follower of certain radio and TV personalities.
You may even be peppered with a variety of other choice labels such as racist, islamophobe, bitter white male, teabagger, and the most damning of all (at least in my world!)….a conservative.
Or….you will be ignored.
It is a universal truth that one can never defend the indefensible, so deflection, demonization, or the fingers in the ears approach are the only options left.
Thanks Markson, but those tags would be far from the truth. I don’t watch Fox News or listen to Rush (well maybe the band), I support civil rights, don’t hate Islam, not really bitter, don’t like tea, and voted for Obama (although I am already regretting that last one).
Nothing I said above can be factually refuted with the exception of where Annie stayed when she traveled overseas. I would like to think that these truths could be evident to people regardless of party affiliation.
Annie, I agree with you about the beauty of the countries you listed but you apparently aren’t aware of one over riding fact; they are beautiful because of slave labor. During your next visit to any of these countries please note the barred windows on the top floor, this is not to keep people out but to keep their slave labor in. In Kuwait for instance the rape rate of (Third Country Nationals) TCN is unmatched anywhere in the world because the TCN are seen as non-believers and infidels and not worthy of court protection. In Kuwait for instance it is not unusual for a woman to be kidnapped, taken out into the desert, raped, and murdered with no consequence. Who do you think sweeps the streets of Dubai, or Abu Dabi, you can bet it isn’t an Arab.
luftmann – eloquently stated, like you I have also traveled to the laundry list of countries that Annie listed and absolutely concur with your comments. I look at the WW II photos of Normandy and I have this reoccurring question while staring at the bodies of the dead in the surf and on the beach and wonder with the spread of Islam in the world today, was it really worth it. This freedom we seem to cherish, will it last with the expansion of Islam in the world and at what point in this expansion will a new “Hitler” arise and come up with a final solution.
For those who are so willing to believe that Islam is a “peaceful” religion, I wish it were possible for them to state their opinion to those who were forced to jump from the upper floors of the WTC. I imagine as one of the jumpers watch his tie flapping in his face as he plunged towards the concrete below there wasn’t a thought of how peaceful Islam was or any religion for that matter.
Appreciate the insights luftmann. It was pretty obvious that Annie’s observation were of the shallow variety. She meant no harm of course, but this is a typical example of how “a LITTLE learning is a dangerous thing.”
jintz, most of your “facts” and statistics are highly disputable — see this thread on the Snopes forum. I won’t copy and paste it all here for the sake of brevity.
jimm: If only “a tiny few Muslims are violently anti-Western”, how could they possibly become a national security threat … because a couple books got burned???
How many people does it take to hijack a plane, or plant an IED, or detonate themselves in a mall or city center? And surely you don’t believe they see it as “a couple books” being burned, any more than this nut-job pastor sees it that way. It is a symbol, it is meant that way, and it’s taken that way. If it comes down to symbolism, I much prefer to be on the side of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is planning to send a copy of the Koran to Afghan troops for every copy that’s burned on Saturday. Now THAT’s what I call a creative, productive answer to a sorry sack of hateful krazeee….
luftman – much of what could be termed the Christian world was once populated by other religions and were dominated by military and political means. Conversion at the tip of a sword was not uncommon in Christianity either.
bB,
I’m not so sure that this type of begging the question is such a show stopper any more.
Let’s accept your premise.
Now what? What is your purpose in bringing Christians into the discussion? When will you let the other shoe drop? What do you mean to say?
Is it:
Christians did it too….and they are doing it to this day in the same way that Muslims are?
or
Christians did it too….therefore anything said about Muslims in the present day is hypocritical?
or
Christians did it too….And they didn’t turn out so bad….just give it time?
or
Christians did it too….And anyone who questions Muslim’s actions are not real adherents to their own religion vis a vis the log in their own eye?
Seriously, what are you asking us to conclude about modern Islam when you say:
“Conversion at the tip of a sword was not uncommon in Christianity either.”
sigh…thanks MoD
luftmann’s conclusion after bringing up Muslim history is beautifully stated, and bears repeating:
“This Muslim conquest was not driven by suspicion of the Western world, nor poverty, nor other invented grievances, such as the Palestinian problem. It was driven by a sheer desire to control how other people lived their lives.”
Maybe you have thoughts on his conclusion, rather than the examples he chose to bolster it?
You’re welcome sozo!
We all succumb to our own fallacies from time to time…..
At least I know I’m guilty.
danU and luftmann’s comments were insightful, truthful and accurate. I especially agree with danU’s observation about whether the sacrifices made at Normany and other battlefields and wars that the U.S. has been in were really worth it. I see a populace in this country now that would have been jailed or thrown out of the country for sedition a few decades ago. The subversive left has finally displayed their agenda for the rest of us to see and the backlash is gaining strength. We no longer accept the lies from the media at face value, we know that the major media sources are practically all socialists and marxists. The veil has been lifted and I don’t like the ugly face hiding under it.
That’s why frosty carries around his barf bag, Sumner401.
What, Annie? Did you just write the most irritating and inflammatory nonsense you could think of, just to get attention? Okay, here goes!
Good girl! Yes, that’s a good girl! You did a good letter! Thaaaat’s a good girl! Atta-girl! Okay, roll over! Fetch!
Look at the back slapping and circle jerking between a couple of our favorite commenters….
You guys don’t need a barf bag…..you swallow!
Sumner, what would you know about “a man puking”? As far as circle jerks, you must be the pivot girl/boy.
bvask and ipsut- there is no Old Testament in the Qur’an. You fail to understand the historical distinction. The Bible (if one actually reads it) gives precise meaning to the actions that occur relative to it’s chronology. The Qur’an is not a chronological account nor does it discern a time frame relative to it’s demands. It employs mene-plex and Taqiyya principles of “definition super-cession” There is a progressive intensity between the Medinan and Meccan Surahs. This has to do only with retribution and geographic military conquest. To equate 7th century AD inventions based on “The Surrender” as somehow equivalent with the previous 4,400 years is astronomically absurd. Your lack of faith in anything beyond just you, yourself is the sad result of our current “educational” system…
MoD – I was responding to a post referring to the history of Islam’s spread. It was appropriate to counter with a historical reference to Christianity.
Those who point to the history of Islam.
or
Cite verses of the Qu’ran out of context
Need to understand that that support of their bigotry can easily be utilized by anti-semites or anti-Christians in the exact same way.
And,
Hopefully,
Understand that their bigotry is not rational
but
Is based upon their willingness to generalize to the majority
the actions of a very tiny minority.
In other words,
They are acting as complete and total bigots.
Very subjective analysis beerboy. You only stated an opinion, not fact.
bB,
Going on the assumption that you are referring to luftmann’s post, it appears that you read only the part about the history of Islam, and stopped reading beyond that because your sensibilities were tweaked. I will agree that it is decidedly one sided, and negative in tone.
What intrigued me were his conclusions regarding the animosity many Muslims have toward the west in general, and the US in particular.
The usual hypotheses is that we are a decadent and sinful people, we are imperialistic, and sometimes because we support Israel. Any one or all of these could be true I suppose, but they all have a couple things in common.
First, they are all rather shallow, with only vague references to any real grievances that would elicit such a murderous response. Secondly, they all completely ignore Islam altogether, forcing a false pretense that it’s a secular issue, and religion plays no part in it.
We need to point to and acknowledge any role we may play in any tensions throughout the world, but to ignore and minimize just how much Islam plays a part in these tensions, only serves to create a vacuum into which fear, hate and loathing can thrive.
Until we all grow up and have a straight forward discussion about some of the flaws in Islam, the only voices that we will hear will be the distasteful jokes and sniping from the margins. In short….grow a thicker skin, and acknowledge that there really ARE some issues, without the name calling.
Now…completely off topic:
What in the world were you doing when you wrote your last post?
You seem to be distracted. It was early, so it could be that you were stirring your scrambled eggs in between words/sentences.
or
Maybe you were channeling an ancient Mayan princess that only reveals the True Word to you in spurts and fits.
I suspect it’s more likely you were trying to copy/mock the disjointed style in some of my own posts.
If so….I regret that I can only give you a D- for your efforts.
It’s gotta FLOW man!
You squeaked over a total Fail only because it was your first attempt. Study and learn my friend…and soon you will get it…
bb,
The spread of Christianity by the sword came as a response to Islam. Perhaps that is why the West was hesitant to counter Islam’s spread until the Crusades – you know, the turn the other cheek thing. Early Christians did not espouse the use of violence to spread their religion. Combining the military profession with religion was an invention of the Pope leading up to the First Crusade, which itself was a reaction to more than 450 years of unanswered Muslim conquest. The Spanish Inquisition was the response to 800 years of Moorish control of Spain. Hate breeds hate.
But that is beside the point. We’re talking ancient history and Christianity has evolved somewhat – but there’s still a long way to go. Islam’s ancient history is, unfortunately, a blueprint for the future. There are plenty of crackpot Imans around the world advocating for the next Caliphate – I don’t recall hearing anybody in the Christian world yearning for a return to the grand old days of the Inquisition. Therein lies the difference.
“We need to point to and acknowledge any role we may play in any tensions throughout the world, but to ignore and minimize just how much Islam plays a part in these tensions, only serves to create a vacuum into which fear, hate and loathing can thrive.
Until we all grow up and have a straight forward discussion about some of the flaws in Islam, the only voices that we will hear will be the distasteful jokes and sniping from the margins. In short….grow a thicker skin, and acknowledge that there really ARE some issues, without the name calling.”
Thank you, MoD! I copied and reprinted this section of your post because it so needs to be heard.
And thanks also to luftmann’s much-needed distinction between the two religions in question.
Which flaws, sozo? You wanted a discussion, so go ahead and start one, why dontcha?