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MOSQUE: Is this who we really are?

Letter by Florence Ariessohn, Lake Tapps on Aug. 24, 2010 at 2:25 pm with 80 Comments »
August 24, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: “NY mosque supporters, objectors march” (TNT, 8-23).

We always fear what we don’t understand. Unfortunately, for political gain, many on the right are playing on these fears and ginning up a fever pitch of anti-Muslim feeling to serve their own purposes.

Many on the right decry the limitation on the free practice of religion in other countries, yet they would limit it here. They would not assume that the KKK’s burning crosses and Bible verses represent their Christianity, yet they are willing to believe that all Muslims are terrorists.

It is absurd to think that peaceful, normal Americans who practice a different religion are somehow the same as those who attacked us. We need to educate ourselves, but even more importantly, we need to remember who we are as Americans and recover our generosity of spirit.

Hard financial times should not rob us of our humanity.

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  1. blakeshouse says:

    Again these Left Wing Loons refuse to hear what is and has been said. If it doesn’t fit Their agenda then it doesn’t exist. Anyone with even half a brain can figure out what the objections are and know they are based on fact and are legitimate questions concerning not only the project but the founder also.

    The only arguement from the socialist is if you don’t agree it is hate. Asm always the same crap just a different subject.

    It really is a pity so many on the left have nothing but the same old tired refrains to every issue, not only does it get old but it looks so laughable. Iguess with no real thoughts of their own they HAVE to rely on the garbage from huffpo etal.

  2. “We always fear what we don’t understand.”
    Talk about a gross exaggeration. What hole has Florence Ariessohn has been in? Some of us understand that many Muslims really do want to kill us. Not all but a significant number, in the millions if Aljazeera is to be believed. We also understand that blacks should be cautious when confronting members of the KKK. And that Jews are targets for large numbers of people of all stripes, to include liberals and Arabs and the KKK.

    Building a house of worship is much different then building an 11 story cultural center. Places of worship don’t need to be 11 stories high, even an atheist like me understands the height of the building doesn’t get one closer to a God. The location was chosen for one reason only, to rub salt in the wound. I understand that. It’s something religions having be doing for centuries. Build a monument near or on the site of a great victory.

    One has to wonder what the feelings would be in the Muslim world if the pork farmers of Georgia wanted to open a cultural center/food bank in Mecca.

  3. dewilson says:

    Thanks for the insight on Left Wing Loons, Mr. Blakeshouse.
    Actually, our sad old refrain is that we uphold the Constitutional rights of all persons, regardless of their ‘popularity’ or affiliation. I know that’s a bit old fashioned, but it’s kind of like defending to the death your right to speak even if I abhor what you say.

    There may actually be some people with sincere objections to the location of the Cordoba house, but the vast majority of the “outraged voices” has been inflamed by a well-organized, well-funded, media-savy, right-wing effort for political purposes. Their motives are really very apparent and it has nothing to do with “people’s feelings” but everything to do with a political agenda.

  4. the3rdpigshouse says:

    To all you naive left wing whack-jobs, noone is saying the Muslims can’t build a mosqe or conduct their religious ceremonies in the USA – we just don’t want a mosque in the vicinity of the place where islamic radicals killed thousands of people of all faiths!! We would also not appreciate a “Shinto shrine” on Ford Island across the street from the Arizona or the USS Missouri – get it!!! You people disgust me!

  5. Florence- It is NOT fearing what “we” don’t understand, It’s actually being wary of what many of us (apparently not you) Do understand about the “religion of subjugation (peace through Shari’a). Please turn off your soap operas / Oprahs and actually read what Islam says of itself. AGAIN : No one is saying they cannot build at Park 51, but at least try to know what you are trying to talk about; Taqiyya
    and no , dewilson, there is evidently a majority of us who do not have to “rely” on “media talking points” (perhaps you do) to understand the background history of Islam. Much to your surprise I’ve been involved in studying its teachings prior to 9/11/01, unlike late-comer Florence who doesn’t know a Shi’a from a Sunni ,or probably yourself. I am not talking “hate” here, rather the awareness of what the Sani, the Hadiths and the Qur’an say of themselves. READ…

  6. Novelist3 says:

    Well said, thethirdpigshouse.

    You know what gets me? How “freedom of religion” gets tossed around like a sacred right by the Left, up until someone wants to put up a Christmas tree or honor a fallen hero by the roadway with a cross.
    Freedom of religion? As long as you’re not a Christian..

  7. BTW- and please don’t come back with out-of-context quotes that you have robbed of time-relevant geographically specific (specific, there’s that liberal killing word again) context and condition, blindly and intelligently lifted from the Pentateuch. The Qur’an is not written in chronological sequence and that which is written in the Meccan Surahs can be superseded by the Medinan. READ…

  8. Florence- move to Tacoma. It’s where people like you live.

  9. should read “blindly and unintelligently”

  10. dewilson says:

    False equivalency there, Novelist. Keeping religious symbols (including Muslim ones) off of public property is not anti-Christian or anti any particular religion; it is ensuring that public property is maintained secular and neutral to religion, just as government is intended to be under the Constitution.

  11. the3rdpigshouse says:

    dewilson – there you go again – the U.S. and the Constitution are of judeo christian origins and do not forbid the recognition of religion, only that you cannot have a “nat’l state sponsored religion”!!!!! Get it!

  12. …which includes keeping religious symbols from being displayed on public property, pigs.

  13. spotted1 says:

    So how do you describe the many religious symbols, including the ten commandments, on government property…put their long before we were having this debate? Hmmm….

    As far as the mosque…not a lot of good has come out from what this guy has said. A whole lot of questions should be answered before it goes up. Including what he truly stands for. Oh wait, he stands for the U.S. government since we paid for him to travel around as our representative….makes ya think…

  14. spotted1, the US Supreme Court has made many communities remove the ten commandments and other religious symbols from public lands. They have allowed others, if they have overriding cultural or historical significance that goes beyond the religious symbolism. They allow religious symbols if all religions have equal ability to place them, and the government does not pay for them. The Ten Commandments, in fact, are on the Supreme Court building as one of the historical documents that were the foundation of our laws, and not as a symbol of anything to worship or use in worship.

    You know, if the community center becomes a center for anti-American activities, we can close it down and arrest those who take action against the US like we’ve done with other mosques, churches and home-grown terrorists militia groups. I’m not a scared little child like many of those wailing against the center. Ooh, some people in their same religion are evil, so they must all be evil. Be afraid, run around in fright. Attack anyone who is Muslim just in case. Make up lies so more people will be afraid. Lets create mass hysteria and then take a poll.

  15. witchiwoman says:

    Conservative Christians = the American Taliban.

  16. Novelist3 says:

    spotted1-
    There’s no point in arguing with the tired crowd of leftists attacking you. Polago, Tuddo, WitchiWoman, dewilson and the like basically have nothing relevant to say, so they basically just waft around here echoing their same pathetic irrelevancies day in and day out.
    I’ve learned to ignore them- they’ve never got anything worthwhile to put forward, so there’s no point in even reading anything they type.

  17. FreeAmerica says:

    witchiwoman says:
    Conservative Christians = the American Taliban.

    FA:
    The villiage idiot has once again shown the hate from the left.
    Maybe you should be stoned for that comment since that is what the taliban do to your sex….get it.

  18. Novelist3 – it seems that, by applauding one of the most jingoistic and repetitive posters here, 3rdPigsHouse, and dismissing one of the more thoughtful ones, dewilson, you have opted for no dialogue in favor of demagoguery.

    Sad…..I used to think you were someone who would engage in an exchange of ideas. Is Novelist3 the same person as Novelist?

  19. pazzo242 says:

    Has anyone on the left listened to the Iman who will be running this mosque–he blames the USA for the attacks on 9-11 as well as recently saying “America has more blood on their hands then Al-Queda does for 9-11″. And this the guy who says this mosque will be a center for bridging peace with the US——really! Doesn’t sound much like any bridging going on there.

    Wake-up folks, these people want to kill you and me and take over religious beliefs of the entire world–just like they did in Ethiopia and Spain; and trying to do in France. If they can’t persuade you peacefully then they will do it the same way their leader, Muhammad did–by the end of a sword.

  20. the3rdpigshouse says:

    beerBoy – your definition of an “exchange of ideas” is when all you anti-American leftist whack-jobs reach consensus on hating your own country!

  21. Thank you Pazzo!! That is the point. This project is being spearheaded by a very ANTI-American Imam, who refuses to acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and refuses to speak with the press about his beliefs. He is not a moderate or American Muslim, who denounces the terrorist acts perpetrated by fringe lunatic Muslim terrorists(yes, if they claim their actions are based on their Muslim beliefs that makes them Muslim terrorists). We have had Christian terrorists. The crusades, the Catholic churches actions during WWII with Hitler, etc. They don’t represent my Christianity, and I don’t consider those actions Christian, but they were done in the name of Christianity. Imagine the morale boost to terrorists when a great temple is erected at Ground Zero(this building was hit by a large landing gear section of the plane-IT IS PART OF GROUND ZERO, not “near” ground zero. It will be used to convince the terrorists they are winning this war. A radical Imam, who faults America more than Al Qaeda(sp?), who supports Shariah law and believes the US should be more Shariah compliant builds a mosque to celebrate their victory on 9/11/2001. This is what the radical Muslim world will interpret from this action. And more of our soldiers will die as a result. It is intentional, cunning, and planned out as part of their war strategy. This is not a peace loving Muslim behind this building. Read his opinions before you form your own.

  22. “They don’t represent my Christianity, and I don’t consider those actions Christian”

    How easy it is to allow yourself the latitude to distance yourself from Christian “embarrassments”, Tmell, yet you’re not Christian enough to grant that latitude to Muslim Americans.

    If that mosque was moved two blocks further away from ground zero, would your rant about the damage it would do, become moot?

    All this would go away?

    “It will be used to convince the terrorists they are winning this war. A radical Imam, who faults America more than Al Qaeda(sp?), who supports Shariah law and believes the US should be more Shariah compliant builds a mosque to celebrate their victory on 9/11/2001. This is what the radical Muslim world will interpret from this action. And more of our soldiers will die as a result. It is intentional, cunning, and planned out as part of their war strategy. This is not a peace loving Muslim behind this building.”

  23. Sumner401 says:

    There’s no point in arguing with the tired crowd of leftists attacking you. Polago, Tuddo, WitchiWoman, dewilson and the like basically have nothing relevant to say, so they basically just waft around here echoing their same pathetic irrelevancies day in and day out.

    Just pointing out the hypocrisy.

  24. Sumner401 says:

    Wake-up folks, these people want to kill you and me and take over religious beliefs of the entire world–just like they did in Ethiopia and Spain; and trying to do in France. If they can’t persuade you peacefully then they will do it the same way their leader, Muhammad did–by the end of a sword.

    Now what was someone saying about ‘fear’???

  25. Did you feel left out, Sumner401? :)

    I don’t think I’ve ever attacked anyone, especially spotted1. Maybe Mov3 considers any form of disagreement from the left, as an attack. Must be a Conservative trait.

    Sad!

  26. pazzo242 uses fear to generate hate, Sumner401.

    Is he talking about the crusades?

  27. Roncella says:

    Most Liberals have a blame America Mental Problem. When ever anything is wrong anywhere, their knee jerk reaction is to blame America.

    Liberal/Democrats like Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Murray and all the rest Blame Bush for every problem America is facing. They have control of both the House and the Senate and the Presidency, and have forced through huge unfunded spending bills without reading them first.

    Now when all the unfunded spending has not worked they revert back to blaming Bush.

    All Independents, Conservatives, Republicans, enlightened Democrats, get registered and get your friends and family registered and enlightened on who would best represent them and vote this November.

  28. dewilson says:

    Roncella – Actually, we don’t have a ‘blame America’ problem. But we don’t hesitate to speak out when our America fails to live up to its Constitutional principles and bends to “popular outrage”, particularly when it is so transparently contrived. It’s hard to believe that our right wing friends who “don’t listen to polls, but do the right thing” are now claiming that the popular or ‘polticially correct’ thing is to move the so-called Mosque.

    They would have a lot more credibility if they didn’t exaggerate and/or lie about the real situation. For example, it’s not a Mosque – it’s a community center. It’s not at ground zero – it’s two blocks away. The Imam who supports it was appointed by Pres. G.W. Bush as an ambassador to Muslim countries and his statements have been flagarantly corrupted to push the anti-Muslim agenda.

    The entire argument is over-hyped and part of the strategy to conflate all Muslims with terrorism, demonzie and dehumanize Muslims so the righties can justify a great crusade (or jihad) against all of Islam, and BTW, accuse our President of being a secret Muslim (and therefore a terrorist!!!). They know that 20% of the lower IQ of our nation will totally buy into it, because it’s a lot easier to hate a boogeyman than it is to think.

  29. I want to echo beerBoy’s sentiment, that you are one of the more thoughtful posters. Thanks for saying so well what needs to be said.

  30. dewilson says:

    3rd Pig – I never said the government can’t “recognize” religion. Obviously it does, because it guarantees its practice as a fundemental part of the Constitution. But to have real “freedom of religion” the government must remain secular and “neutral” to all religions.

    As far as being “based on Judeo-Christian principles, you may have some debate there from the likes of Thomas Jefferson. I do agree that Christ (who was the world’s greatest liberal) espoused a philosophy of man that would align beautifully with a democratic nation that treats all persons equally.

    My question to you is, if we are founded on Judeo-Christian principles does that mean that our Constitution should be subordinated to Judeo-Christian law, i.e, the Bible?

  31. dewilson says:

    Polago – Thanks for the thumbs up. I appreciate also your contributions to ‘thoughtful’ discussions as well as beerBoy’s.

    It’s good to hear other strong voices on the issues from folks who know how to have a healthy debate.

  32. Again….Iman Rauf was vetted by the Bush Administration and the FBI, Laura Ingraham was supportive of the project and Glenn Beck was complimentary of the man – he is clearly a moderate Islamic scholar who is pro-American.

    Taking partial quotes out of context is not reality based.

  33. iamjimbo says:

    Wow, get a room fellas.

  34. iamjimbo says:

    Nice Beerboy… as I pointed out in another thread… Rauf was vetted by the “chimp” president (that is what you called him) and that some how supports your argument??? Not to mention Laura and Beck.

    fyi, I have not taken a position either way about the mosque/community recruitment center… in fact, I even stated I thought they should build it.

  35. TMell, please tell me what about the imam’s quotes below that I should be afraid of? You asked that I read his opinions before I made up my mind, so I did. I think he sounds pretty moderate. I also read the entiore quote and saw the 60 minutes vido where they edited out his explanatory remarks, and it sounded exactly like what a lot of scholars say. The US caused itself a lot of problems by creating and funding bin Laden’s terrorism campaign against the Soviets. It came back to bit us big time.

    Qotes from imam Rauf:

    “The truth is that killing innocent people is always wrong – and no argument or excuse, no matter how deeply believed, can ever make it right. No religion on earth condones the killing of innocent people; no faith tradition tolerates the random killing of our brothers and sisters on this earth. God does not want us to kill each other.”

    “I agree with the Fatwa against the 9/11 terrorists as enunciated by the most respected clerics in Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those Muslims who committed this act of terror”

    “Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions must be condemned.”

    “I believe that all Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land in which they reside, including in America.”

    “I am a supporter of the State of Israel”

  36. Novelist3 says:
    August 25, 2010 at 12:59 am

    “I’ve learned to ignore them”

    You’re doing a dang poor job of it. Try harder.

  37. witchi, that’s an absurd statement.

    And I will only say this, echoing lars…it’s what well-read people DO know that troubles them, not fear of the unknown.

  38. I am sorry that people like Novelist and sozo ignore the facts and choose to invest their intellectual skills into make believe fairy tales. Fox is on a campaign that brings them huge revenue, and they don’t care what lies they tell to get it. The funniest one lately was the charge that a dangerous Saudi who is trying to take over the USA and install sharia law is bankrolling the community center. When revealed, it was none other than the second-largest owner of Fox. Oops! Their faces should be red, but most Fox viewers don’t care for real news, so they never get the full story. Also a close friend of George Bush and family, btw.

    Anyone have any comments about what the imam really believes based on what he has said and written instead of the lies Fox tells about him?

  39. Ij in fact, I even stated I thought they should build it.

    You don’t even provide the full quote and context for your own statements!

  40. Novelist3 says:

    FreeAmerica, Roncella-
    Note the same pathetic echo-chambering from the same usual suspects. Ooh, they can toss out insults! It’s hilarious, and silly at the same time. They’re like roaches.

  41. Novelist3 says:

    “Wow, get a room fellas.”

    Haven’t you noticed they do this in every room and topic they’re in? To a leftist, volume of posts is equal in their mind to content of post. This is why the same few people have spent a large amount of time in this very thread filling it with idiotic back-patting. Not because they actually have a point, but because they believe that if they scream loud and long enough that they can drown out rational debate and leave only themselves speaking.
    You’ll notice this is actually a common liberal tactic. They employ it wherever conservatives might be having a conversation, or where someone they don’t like might be giving a scholarly lecture to a class or whatnot- they’ll get a group of their idiot friends together and bust into the lecture hall, drowning out whoever is speaking with their inane, repetitive caterwauling. Thus, as it is everywhere else, it is here too. The same morons, with the same pitiful, tired tactics, interrupt the conversation with their off-key bleating.

  42. Novelist3 says:

    “Has anyone on the left listened”

    That would require the leftists here to engage in both thinking and listening, something which they have not the mental capacity to engage in. The prime definition of a leftist, if you hadn’t noticed, is the singular ability to create volumes of speech while the brain is off.

  43. iamjimbo says:

    I f you have the full context,b… feel free…

  44. iamjimbo says:

    … here’s a hint… I suggested Barry could have a ‘hall of fame’ in the entry/foyer (not sure if “foyer” is an acceptable muslim/beerboy term) you know… a ‘tribute’, so to speak… like a “misssion accomplished” moment…

  45. iamjimbo says:

    … he was “vetted” … after all, by Bush…

  46. Novelist3 says:
    August 25, 2010 at 12:59 am

    “I’ve learned to ignore them”

    Still not there, yet, Bucko……Try harder.

  47. alindasue says:

    “To a leftist, volume of posts is equal in their mind to content of post.”

    “That would require the leftists here to engage in both thinking and listening, something which they have not the mental capacity to engage in. The prime definition of a leftist, if you hadn’t noticed, is the singular ability to create volumes of speech while the brain is off. ”

    @Novelist3, both those above quotes come from your posts. Perhaps, given the number of comments I have seen you post, you might want to rethink your implication that a large volume of posts is indicitive of diminished mental capacity…

    Everyone, I am getting tired of seeing people fight over the “mosque” being built “on ground zero.” I fail to see how plans for a Muslim version of a YMCA (Young Men’s -Christian- Association) is causing such a ruckus. Is it because this community center, like the YMCAs, will have a chapel of sorts in it? That’s the big insult???

    I can’t help thinking of the words of Jesus when He said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” The people he was speaking to were about to stone to death a woman accused of adultery. Interestingly enough, those people were not a bunch of Muslims following the dreaded “Sharia” laws, but his followers and fellow Jews who were following the laws as written in the Old Testament, right there in our Christian Bible. They are similar because many of the laws of Islam date back to Moses and Abraham. Yup. They worship the same God and have many of the same prophets we do.

    So, to paraphrase what Jesus said, let he who is without sin be the first to cast the proverbial stone at this community center.

  48. Novelist3 says:

    iamjimbo-
    Note that Polago has created yet another account (alindasue) to post under. This exemplifies absolutely everything that I’ve mentioned beforehand about this small, yet vocal group of people hanging around the forums. “alindasue” indeed, Polago.
    You do enjoy embarrassing yourself, don’t you?

  49. alindasue says:

    Novelist3, who are you? I don’t know who Polago is, but I only have one account that I sign with my real first and middle names, Alinda Sue. It’s a good name and I am not ashamed of it. I don’t hide behind pseudonyms. You should try it some time.

    Has it occurred to you that many of us do actually share similar views?

  50. Novelist3 says:

    Yeah, right, Polago.
    I’ve been on these forums a long time, and I know that the likelyhood of someone creating an entirely new account, wading through multiple pages of Letters To the Editor, and then singling out a single poster from halfway down the page- it’s something only a stalker like yourself would do.
    You’re not fooling anyone, and you know it.

  51. witchiwoman says:

    alindasue, be prepared to be harassed by the vocal minority on here. They do it to every new person, which is why so many don’t come back to these boards. Their paranoia is showing as they accuse every new poster of being a troll. I can only take so much of their fervid fantasizing before I have to take a break and hang out on facebook for awhile. At least there, people are accountable for their posts.

    And back to the thread, I am dead serious when I say that the Christian conservatives are the flip side of the Taliban coin. An eye for an eye, death to non-believers, bomb the enemy into pieces too small to see, etc. Substute the religious titles, it makes no difference; the syntax remains constant.

  52. Novelist3 says:

    I am dead serious when I say that the Christian conservatives are the flip side of the Taliban coin”

    Sure, Witchi, those darn Methodists just can’t help from flying planes into large office buildings, or bombing school buses, or stoning to death girls of questionable virtue, huh?

    Oh wait…

  53. alindasue says:

    Most Methodists I know are Democrats, if they claim a political party at all.
    I am not Methodist. I’m actually LDS. Politically, I’m a moderate who refuses to vote for any candidate based on political party.

    However, I do agree with witchiwoman when she states that there is little difference between the methods of the Taliban and the actions of some of the extreme “Christian” conservatives. I put Christian in quotes because I often wonder if some of them actually paid attention the lessons Jesus taught us. If they had, would they be able to spout such vitrol against any of God’s children?

    Never-the-less, they are entitled by The Constitution to speak their thoughts (vile though they may be) because of the protection of the 1st Ammendment – the same 1st Ammendment that allows Muslims, Christians, etc the freedom to worship according to their own conscience. We allow it because we cannot selectively deny one part of The Constitution without weakening the whole constitution.

  54. Novelist3 says:

    You again, Polago?
    To claim there is “little difference” between what the Taliban does and what Christian conservatives do is the absolute, positive height of ignorance. Guess what, Polago- you may have had a point in, oh, say, 1600, when witches were burned, leeches were standard medicine and emptying chamber pots was still a common occurrence in London.
    We’re not in 1600 anymore, and you’re completely and totally off base. The Taliban blow up buses of schoolgirls and think it’ll get them to heaven. The Taliban are planning on slaughtering AID WORKERS who are trying to save Pakistanis from flood starvation. The Taliban regularilly kill humanitarian relief workers because of the hint that Christianity might be preached. The Taliban regularily engage in female genital mutilation, force women to wear thick black burquas in 100+ degree heat….
    I could go on and on and on, but quite frankly, just a few examples are quite simply enough to send your little hypothesis packing, especially when the worst extremist Christianity has here in the States is some idiot from the Westburo Baptist Church who annoys people at funerals.
    Seriously, the very concept of parity between these two things is so insane that only a Polago… or his alt… could concieve of it.

  55. iamjimbo says:

    I’m not going there…

  56. ummmm….Novelist3……the Taliban didn’t fly planes into the Towers.

    That would be the CIA creation: al Qaeda led by one of the Bush’s friends the bin Ladins staffed by Saudis under the rule of Georgie’s hand-holding friend the Prince.

  57. ij represents the closed circle system of logic: He rejects evidence presented that comes from “Liberal media” AND rejects evidence that is sourced from the Bush Administration (while just ignoring the evidence from the FBI) because the person who points it out has been extremely critical of Bush.

    Your pursuit of truthiness might work at the Hatter’s tea party but it is definitely not reality-based.

  58. pazzo242 says:

    I am accused of using fear to generate hate. Of course that is your opinion and very welcome to it,, but I suggest you read the history of Islam–their track record specks for themselves.

    As for Christian terrorism–I find that equally disturbing. But the terrorism that most bring up about Christians is the Crusades, sorry but there are other issues and the Christian church has grown leaps and bounds since that Mid-Evil time–we cannot say the same about Muslims.

  59. Polago-you are seriously too slow to realize that the point I was making IS the point you are attempting to say I am not making.

    “They don’t represent my Christianity, and I don’t consider those actions Christian, but they were done in the name of Christianity”

    You are not this slow, but I will slow it down. See, I’m Christian, I don’t condone these actions that have occurred in the name of Christianity, and don’t consider them Christian actions. BUT(and this is the important part) the people who did them claimed to do them in the name of Christianity. I give no pass to these Christian terrorists who pervert Christianity.

    Now, to the part you were apparently unable to grasp. There are plenty of moderate Muslims who are against terrorism. They actively speak out against terrorism and believe Hamas and other organizations are perverting their beliefs of what a Muslim is and what their religion represents. As so eloquently pointed out by Alindasue above, there are plenty of things in the Bible that are controversial, Sharia law is very similar to the principle of “an eye for an eye” and other biblical laws that certainly are not part of our laws today. The point is and continues to be: If a person commits an act of terror in the name of a religion, that has to be recognized. Extremist Muslim Terrorists exist. As did/do Christian terrorists. I was pointing out some of the extreme horrific acts done in the name of Christianity to make the point that there are people that will kill in the name of their God. Because a moderate Muslim doesn’t agree with the actions, and is embarrassed that their religion is perverted by these people doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist.

    Tuddo-thank you for actually reading somewhere something about this Imam finally. I’m guessing the Huffington Post based on the quotes you provided. Would you suggest or agree-in the interests of understanding, peace, and bridge building, that this Imam go on a softball show like 20/20 or something and discuss his beliefs and views, and why he feels this cultural centre will be a place of healing, where at the same time in the same breath, he can denounce the 9/11 terrorists and Hamas, making it clear to the world that this centre is desired as a healing for the tensions between Americans and Muslims, not to celebrate the 9/11 victory?(I know, run-on of all run-ons-really don’t worry about grammar/sentence structure in a blog forum :)

  60. Yep….Christian terrorism is ancient history…..you have to go way back to 1972 when the Catholic Church protected a priest who masterminded Irish Republican Army bombings.

    http://www.georgiabulletin.org/world/2010/08/24/WORLD-1/

  61. Thank you for the clarification, TMell. I’ve reread that post and it still isn’t clear to me that you meant to say that which your most recent post says so clearly but maybe I should read more slowly.

    Your most recent post makes your point very well.

    It’s helpful to have posters like tuddo, dewilson, and beerBoy, who are knowledgeable and research thoroughly . I’ve learned alot (sorry :) sozo) from their informative comments.

    Several, here, point to bad behavior reported to occur in Muslim dominated countries and use it as an excuse for Americans to behave the same way in return. That’s not my America.

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

    “Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating an egalitarian society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.”

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

  62. TMell, I gathered those quotes from various interviews the imam has done. None come from Huffington. They are very easy to find, since he is quite active on the interview circuit all over the world. He has written a book that outlines his pro-American views and, as many authors do, he has done numerous talk shows to market his book. I know Fox News has criticized him for not being more camera-available, but they’ve had him on various shows on Fox several times in the past before this issue came up. Why would he choose to go on Fox now when they have made their position clear? Fox does not allow people to even complete a sentence if they disagree with the person. The only people claiming he has not made his views clear is Fox News, so I can only surmise that is who you are quoting. The evidence, as usual, points that Fox is totally wrong, since his views are all over the internet, including his personal website and the community center’s website.

    Most of his book is geared to Muslims around the world showing why the USA is a great place for Muslims and why countries do not have to be Islamist in governing structure to allow Muslims to flourish. I think his criticisms of America’s involvement are very accurate. Because of our need for oil, we have made some very astounding choices. Sometimes in “paying the devil we know” we have inadvertently caused ourselves a lot of grief. Many non-Muslim scholars have made this assessment, too, and I find it very disingenuous for critics of the community center to claim that making this statement is anti-American. I think I am very pro-American, and I would make the same statement too.

  63. alindasue says:

    Novelist3, Even among Muslims, the Taliban are considered very extreme. I think, based on your posts, that we can agree on that. What makes them dangerous and allows them to inflict their extreme views and punishments on the people is the fact that they are in power. They are in power because parts of our government took the “the enemy of our enemy is our friend” approach and put them in power. Many of the bombs being used against our troop are USA made… but that’s neither here nor there for this discussion. The main point is that they are allowed to do what they do because they are in power.

    You say that the Christian extremists are not as bad as the Taliban, but what if all the “liberals” went away somehow and those extremists were in power. Could you imagine a USA run entirely by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and that televangelist who declared that the people of Haiti (even the young children?) were being punished by God for being a sinful people with the earthquake? I can. It’s scary.

    Already, they’ve tried ignoring parts of The Constitution that don’t fit in with their personal beliefs. (That’s why we are having this conversation to begin with – they want to deny religious freedoms to Muslim people in New York.) In Texas, they have tried to dictate what can and can’t be put in the history and science textbooks. With The Constitution selectively ignored and thus weakened, what is to stop them from now enforcing their own version of “God’s laws” among the American people. Do you honestly think it would be too much different than the Taliban?

    Whether they are Muslim, Christian, or otherwise, religious extremists are an abberation and a danger that we must be vigilant against.

  64. alindasue, I’ve tried to stay out of this useless debate, but something you said above got me really excited. You said “could you imagine a USA run entirely by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and the televangelists who declared that the people of Haiti (even the young children?) were being punished ny God for being a sinful peoplewith the earthquake?” I could imagine such a place. I’d love to see this country revert back to it’s moral beginnings. That may scare you, but there are many of us who would love it. Secondly, can you prove that the comments about Haiti are not true?

  65. Novelist3 says:

    Twern’t the Lutherans spread across the television’s landscape on that dark September Day as the Taliban-supported terrorists (Sorry, Beerboy, but you’re an idiot if you can’t figure out where they got their backing) flew those planes into the towers. Tweren’t the Catholics rejoicing in the streets, praising the God that killed thousands of innocent people. Twas not the Mormons nor the Methodists.
    Liberals have forgotten, but I have not.

  66. Roncella says:

    Novelist3, Great post, over 70% of the American people agree with your comments according to the latest polls.

  67. Name-calling is added to your arsenal…..I might be “an idiot” but Novelist3 seems to bear very little resemblance to Novelist.

    The backing that al Qaeda got was from the bin Laden family – from American money for Saudi oil.

    I won’t stoop to your level and call you an idiot for not knowing that but it does demonstrate more than a little prideful ignorance in readily available information.

    Sheesh…….bigotry really does shut down people’s brains.

  68. And again Novelist3 – it wasn’t the Muslims celebrating in the streets – it was the extremists from Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Hamas. The majority of Muslims condemned the heinous act.

    Your hatred/Islamophobia has you saying all sorts of easily disproven things.

  69. What I want to know is why I haven’t seen any condemnations of the attempted murder of a Muslim taxi driver by Palin, Gingrich or any of the others who claim that this isn’t about hatred, fear or Islamophobia but about “respect”?

  70. iamjimbo says:

    Beerboy. (are you stalking me?) my comment “I’m not going there”… was directed to the poster that said “iamjimbo-Note that Polago has created yet another account”.

    Read more: http://blog.thenewstribune.com/letters/2010/08/24/is-this-who-we-are/comment-page-1/#comment-14237#ixzz0xoz66BUy

  71. iamjimbo says:

    Palin and Gingrich tried to kill a muslim taxi driver? I hadn’t heard that one.

  72. Novelist3 says:

    “Novelist3, Great post, over 70% of the American people agree with your comments according to the latest polls.”
    That’s because the vast majority of the American people have woken up, seen the light. Those who would bury their heads in the sand are in the minority these days, thankfully.

  73. Novelist3 says:

    “And again Novelist3 – it wasn’t the Muslims celebrating in the streets – it was the extremists”
    And again you say all sorts of idiotic things, because you have not the intelligence to remember the months that followed 9/11. It wasn’t “extremists”- you can even find videos documenting them all dancing and celebrating in the streets. See, that’s the problem with this modern age as far as leftists are concerned- they can’t hide the truth with the lies of time anymore, because the truth is well documented and online.

  74. Novelist, please point me to the videos of moderate Muslims rejoicing. I have found some of extremists rejoicing and burning our flag. However, I have found plenty of websites with moderate Muslims making reasoned statements about how the attacks were evil and were against Islamic principles. If you brand all Muslims with extremist views, then you can also brand all Christians with extremist views like those of the KKK and other Christian hate groups. Both positions are ridiculous.

  75. you can even find videos documenting them all dancing and celebrating in the streets.

    You can find videos that “document” all sorts of things.

    See that’s the problem with people in the modern age who are ignorant about how videos are created and manipulated – they forget about editing, manipulations of point of view and other aspects of the medium.

    Yes – video is evidence but it is not conclusive – and easily faked.

    Your arguments are completely illogical – you are maintaining that I am wrong in maintaining that any dancing Muslims you saw were extremists and you counter that I am idiotic in my conclusions because you saw videos – a completely irrational argument that only demonstrates your own biases and ignorance.

    You are demonstrating your arrogant attachment to your own ignorance.

  76. iamjimbo says:

    A study shows that everything you say is wrong
    Submitted by beerBoy on October 8, 2008 – 12:48pm.
    and no I can’t cite the source off the top of my head and don’t have time to look right now, but I know what I saw and do not fabricate.
    .
    ;)

  77. Uhhh, Tuddo,,,uhhh Fox News Did Not write the Qur’an that you have not read…

  78. larsman, the only place I have said anything about the Quran was in a post on another thread where someone, perhaps you? stated that the equivalent of the Ten Commandments was not in the Quran. Since I have read the Quran and studied it in seminary before becoming a Baptist preacher, then I know that it does contain much of the same language, plus it requires Muslims to follow the “tablets” of the old religion of Moses, which Islamic scholars state are the Ten Commandments.

    What I asked for in this thread was some factual information that shows that moderate Muslims were not against 9/11 as many have claimed. I would be ready to apologize if there were such factual evidence. Of course no one who is arguing that position apologized to me or to Muslims when I showed over 20,000 Muslim leaders around the world condemning 9/11 terrorists.

    I know that a huge number of Muslims, in fact the majority of Muslim leaders all over the world, condemned 9/11 and condemn all killing of innocent people. In fact, that is one of the basic tenets of Islam.

  79. iamjimbo says:

    beerBoy wrote on 04/13/2010 06:34:58 AM:
    I love how folks precede their opinions with the words “is in fact” as though that makes it fact.
    ….
    Weird…

  80. iamjimbo, I am always open for enlightenment. When I ask for any facts to refute my position, I am, in fact, asking for factual support. I come from the old school of debate where one presents a position and then defends it with facts and evidence. So far, there have been only groundless attacks on my stated position after how many letters and how many comments? The only factual support for any position is that a huge number of Muslim leaders called the 9/11 unIslamic, the people developing the community center are Americans who follow American laws and support the Constitution, and their beliefs bear no resemblance to the reasons the terrorists harmed America on 9/11.

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