Letters to the Editor

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MOSQUE: American Muslims have a right

Letter by George W. Wambaugh Jr., Puyallup on Aug. 23, 2010 at 2:28 pm with 40 Comments »
August 23, 2010 2:28 pm

American Muslims have a right to build a mosque a few blocks from ground zero. It might have been wiser to build it elsewhere in view of the bigotry in America. Al-Qaida committed the 9/11 massacres. They are Muslims. However, 1.4 billion Muslims did not do it or approve of it.

Nazi Germany and fascist Italy started World War II. German Nazis committed the Jewish Holocaust. The Nazis ruling Germany were all Christians (except Martin Bormann). Adolph Hitler was a Catholic “until I die.” Professed Christians comprised the highest inner circle of Third Reich Nazis. Hitler claimed to be doing God’s work against the Jews. He also condemned the Russians as “godless Bolsheviks.”

Did our parents direct hatred against Christians or Catholics? Rationally we know most Christians opposed Nazism. We also know most Muslims opposed 9/11. If we oppose the mosque at ground zero, should we oppose a church near the Federal Building in Oklahoma City? Should we oppose a Christian church near the Holocaust Memorial in Washington, D.C.?

Leave a comment Comments → 40
  1. George, you are sick, take your pills and we’ll wake you up in the morning, sicko.

  2. Roncella says:

    George, The destruction of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City was not done by a Christian Terrorist, but was done by a very angry and disturbed person who hated the Government.

    George, Christians did not fly planes into buildings and cause the deaths of 3,000 people.

    George your right about one thing you said, the Muslim Emam has every legal right to build his Community Center/Mosque where ever he wants to.

    However as the Emam claims he wants to build a Bridge to other Faiths and People he should select a different site to show his respect and understanding to the Families and Friends and all Americans who lost loved ones at the hands of Muslim Terrorists on 9-11.

  3. the3rdpigshouse says:

    Nazi flags are not acceptable at ground zero, nor should the acceptance of islamic mosques be acceptable – both represent anti-American belief systems!!

  4. karlveek says:

    It’s amazing how you republicans shout out to the mountain tops about how sacred the Constitution is. Except when you want to discriminate. Did you know that there are already two mosques that are actually closer to ground zero. And that there is a mosque in the pentagon. Using your logic that muslims shouldn’t build their community center with one small room disagnated as a prayer room/mosque, because it’s too close to a sensitive area. Well, let’s ban catholic churchs from being near schools becasue using your logic, those darned anti-american preists might molest some kids. It’s the same stupid logic that makes no sense. You do know that muslims also died in the twin towers and at the pentagon. Oh, and don’t forget the sacred ground down the street from this community center which houses two strip clubs.

    Well I guess if the repugs want to change the constitution so they can discriminate against anyone, let’s start by changing the 2nd admendment then let’s get rid of the 5th. After that let’s make all religous entities taxable. Why should the wealthy church’s be tax exempt.

    Once you start to tamper or change part of the constitution, what is stopping us from making major changes? personally, I like the 2nd admendment, however i dont’ like the 5th because of these criminals pleading the 5th so they don’t have to testify. So which parts will you through out or change?

  5. iamjimbo says:

    Georgie, I’m going to have to site Godwin’s Law on you… and we all know what Godwin’s Law says…
    karl, I’m not aware of anyone who wants to change the constitution regarding this mosque business… there are avenues with which to deny permits that fall with in the constitution that have been court tested… it happens to churches of all denominations often. Heck, the state could just pull out “eminent domain” and take the property… Right? All they’d have to do is claim it’s for the “greater good’… they could build a Piggly-Wiggly there.

  6. Roncella says:

    Karl, How did you blend the Catholic Priests molesting kids in this post ???

    You need some more liberal Ice Tea and maybe you need to spike it this time with some strong wiskey.

  7. Ron – how do you conflate Nazi flags with Community Centers?

  8. It is a downer about the catholics though, no beheadings.

  9. Walter9273 says:

    No one would argue that Muslims have a legal right to build a mosque on their private land. It must also be remembered that we also have the legal right to voice our opposition, and displeasure, as to the location of this mosque. We must also remember that Muslims only give a tepid disapproval to the 9-11 attacks. You will not get their religious leaders to condemn the attacks as evil. They will not state that their Islamic teachings, teach that the attacks, and the attackers, committed an evil act. Nor will they state that according to their teachings, that those who committed these and similar acts will, in the final judgement before their maker, be condemned to eternal damnation. (And yes Muslims have a heaven and a hell)

  10. Walter9273, I respect your right not to agree with a community center being built a few blocks away from the World trade Center site. However, then you go and ruin any argument you may have had by blatantly presenting the lie that “You will not get their religious leaders to condemn the attacks as evil.”

    Immediately in the aftermath of 9/11 a huge number of Muslim leaders did just that. Many of them traveled to the US to meet with Americans, other spiritual leaders and President Bush to state their solidarity with Americans against this evil. The Saudi leader of islam who supervises Islam’s holiest shrine stated flatly on 9/14/2001 that the bombing was totally against all that Islam stood for and that the perpetrators of the act and those who support terrorism could not count themselves as Muslims and would not see heaven.

    For a short compilation on some of the condemnations of the 9/11 attack by Muslims, please see http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php .

    I don’t know why people have to keep up a false attack against those Muslims who believe in peace and who abhor terrorism in the name of their religion. If you are doing it out of ignorance, then please learn something today. If you are doing it knowing the truth, then please count yourself as a bigot.

    I have asked over and over for any reason to be against this community center that wasn’t based on lies, prejudice, fear, fabrications or bigotry. All I get is more of the same.

  11. witchiwoman says:

    Good for you George, for taking the high road. Unfortunately, your detractors are taking the same extremist road they are accusing others of being on. So they will never see how far out there they are.

    You’re a brave man for saying what many of us are thinking. That the law is the law for everyone, and that is what our country is founded on. Your detractors are hypocrites, and are falling back on name calling as usual, because they have no real argument against the truth.

  12. Tuddo- I actually read your web references and some of the Islamic ‘scholars’ still had not acknowledged that the hijackers were even muslim (one was dated November 2001). Then again, you might still be unaware of the principles of Kitman or Taqiyya or third jihad. Speaking of “rights” to build a place of worship, why is there an 8 year delay in the NYC permit process for the rebuilding of the Greek Orthodox church just up the street? What is the express purpose of a “Community Cultural Center” under the direction of an Imam? What bridges of understanding (of what, primarily) are being built and which direction does the traffic on said ‘bridge’ flow? One way? Would I be arrested for singing Christmas carols on the sidewalk in front of the entrance to Park 51?

  13. We have been over the Greek Orthodox Church – their delay is due to the fact that their plans are expand far beyond the property that they currently own. The Park51 folks bought their building several years ago – coincidentally it was around 8 years.

    What is the point of your rhetoric other than to spread hatred towards Islamic Americans?

    And why do you think that fits with these words:
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

  14. twade0616 says:

    You can argue to you are blue in the face and some people will still have their view point. You can give them all the facts in the world and they would still same the same rhetoric. As far as the person trying to defend McVeigh, there is no difference. He was a terrorist. When an individual takes violent action against civilians/government in the name of a political or religiousbelief- it is terrorism. Stop trying to down play one from another. Just like Eric Rudolph leaving the bomb at the Olympics. He is a terrorist. The only difference is those guys didn’t have to claim student or work visas to get here.

    As I stated yesterday as well, not everyone that died was Christian. I have no problem with them building one there. If it was such a sacred ground, no one would be trying to make money off the area which we all not is not the case.

  15. larsman, if you expect Muslims to speak in one voice, then you will always be disappointed, just like those who think Christians speak in one voice. Many Chrisitans when I was growing up said God wanted the black man to be a slave and not to marry whites, that the black man was purposely made by God to be inferior to whites. Should we attack all Christians because a few said those things or only those who spread such nonsense? We should celebrate the moderate, peace loving Muslims who love our country, like the imam developing the community center, not attack them.

    The site serves to totally put the lie to the comment that Muslim leaders did not denounce the attack and do not denounce terrorism. That is the point I was making. I could have sent you to a site that had over 2,000 Muslim leaders denouncing 9/11, but it got tedious, even for me, and the URL was exceptionally long.

  16. Pass the koolaid! That must be some potent stuff! Now children, let’s all form a circle, hold hands and sing “please forgive me for being born an American”. We need a soprano to lead, so Georgie, please begin. The remaining boys here who have been neudered may follow on my signal. O.k beerboy, Sumner, publico, you may follow witchiwoman’s leadership, ready, go!

  17. witchiwoman says:

    Well said bB. Unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears. “Let those who will hear, listen.” But they won’t. Maybe they can’t.

  18. Roncella says:

    Whats happened to liberals ability to reason and understand.

    Where is all the liberals/progressives concerns for the families who lost loved ones at the hands of Muslims Terrorists who flew into the twinn towers on 9-11, Where ?

  19. Are you suggesting that we over-rule the Constitution and the bill of because the families of the victims of 9-11 might be offended, Roncella?

    Maybe these families are smarter than that. Maybe they understand that these people aren’t terrorists, and are not responsible for their loss.

  20. oops………Bill of Rights………..

  21. twade0616 says:

    Don’t even bother. It’s funny how when you try to point out the Constitution then they start to point that you are un American. As Tuddo stated, Americans are not without our blemishes. So to punish the extremist of a religion, you want to circumvent the Constitution. What liberals and others understand is once you make exception for one portion of the Constitution, you go down a dark path of which you do not want to journey. Next will it be Catholics for their support of their church even though there were priests being shuffled from parish to parish that tormented little boys or doctors? As the old saying goes, things done in the dark will one day come to the light. For the American people, a creation by our leaders at the time- Al Queda came back to smack us in the face.

  22. Actually ron, there are more than a few who lost friends and family in 9/11 who support Rauf’s intentions.

    The 9/11 survivors do not speak with one voice on this.

  23. About Cordoba House: I invite you all to visit this site and comment, that is those of you who are actually willing to explore this in more depth:


    Raymond Ibrahim is an Egyptian scholar who recently gave detailed information about the naming of this “cultural center” that should be of interest to you.

    He’s spent a lifetime studying Islam (as opposed to a few hours on slant internet sites.

  24. Sozo, great clip. Did you notice the poll on that site? The results are overwhelmingly against the mosque. That should tell us that beerboy, polago, publico, sumner and their fellow blanket suckers are so far out of the mainstream, it’s not even relevent what they think

  25. Sumner401 says:

    A few months ago a friend on mine asked how far into stupid land the right wing is going to, I told I didn’t know but we would should know it when they got there.

    I think they have arrived.

    We have a Constitution people, remember a few weeks ago when you all were wrapping yourselves in it?
    It’s still there and the polls could be 110% against something, the Constitution still stands, as it should.

    All you righties need to get on the next train back to realityville, stupid land is all filled up.

  26. Walter9273 says:

    Tuddo –
    I to read, and listened to the statements made after 9-11. I went to the site you recommended, and re-read the statements quoted there, most, if not all I had read before. May I encourage you to re-read them also. Please note both what is said and what is not said. Note who did, and did not make these statements. American Muslims are only a small percentage of the worlds Muslims. While I do not claim to be a scholar of either the Bible or the Quran, I have done some reading, I might urge you to do the same. While the quotes listed below are not shown in context, I might urge you to read them with in context in the Quran.

    2:154. And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah. “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

    3:195. And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: “Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards.”

    5:51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

    8:12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

    47:4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

  27. Sumner401 says:

    Whats happened to liberals ability to reason and understand.

    Usually I point out sozo’s hypocrisy, but this time, it’s roncella that has given us the textbook example.

  28. dewilson says:

    frosty – The whole point of the bill of rights is that these are guaranteed rights for all persons and not determinate on a plebiscite or vote of the majority. Real Americans stand up for every other American to exercise their rights, even if they may be ‘unpopular’ at the time. And we should point out that the “unpopularity” of Muslims in general is largely due to the well-financed and well orchestrated demagoguery of the right wing.

    Just like the Terry Shivo affair, the whole thing is blown up to serve a political purpose and using the sheild of the “feelings of the families” to rationalize these acts of hatred. And of course, part of the strategy is to conflate Muslims with terrorists and then claim Obama is either Muslim leaning if not actually a “secret Muslim” and therefore a terrorist. It’s disgusting, it’s shameful, and its un-American. It also has the stench of the anti-Semitism of the 30’s in Germany, which led to the de-humanization of the Jews and gave the right wing government the rationale to commit one of the most horrendeous crimes of the century.

    I have no doubt that many of these Islamophobic bigots would like nothing more than to implement such a pogrom against all Muslims. In that respect, they are no better than the Muslim extremists that they claim want to destroy America.

  29. dewilson says:

    Walter – Here’s in interesting list from the Christian Bible where God either kills or abets the killing of approximately 2,500,00 persons of his creation.


    I’d have to check, but I think the Bible actually has more such references to God inspired death and suffering that the Quran. It has some additional features too, like stoning people to death for missing sabbath or wearing a garmet of mixed fabric.

  30. Walter9273, I can’t quite understand your post. Are you saying the link I provide did not include enough American Muslims or too many. I picked a site that had the leaders of Muslim communities in New Zealand, Australia, Canada, England and other English speaking countries because they could not be misquoted. They each stated that the 9/11 attack was the work of terrorists and not true Muslims who believe in peace. If you can read Arabic, I can show you a site that has over 20,000 Muslim clerics denouncing the 9/11 attacks. I did not share that with you because it is hard to read with the Arabic script and bad English translations under each one.

    Islam is a religion that has no single head, unlike the Christian religions that have denominational structure or bishops. So, there is not one “voice” for Muslims. The imam that wants to build the community center has shown in every way that he is a true American who believes in the Comnstitution and rights for all religions. he preaches love and tolerance and spoke loudly about the evils of 9/11. Focus on those facts and not the lies and fabrications of Fox News and you will feel much better about the community center and yourself. Focus on fear and hatred and your heart will turn to stone, like a lot of so-called Christians on these comment boards.

    And, though it will serve no purpose, I can show you a lot of hatred and God-given statements in the Bible that I bet you would disavow in a second. I personally do not believe in tribal hatreds that are shown in the Old testament and a few places in the New. Many progressive Muslim communities pick and choose the parts of the Quran they follow, just like a lot of Jews and a lot of Christians. If Christians followed all of the Bible, they would be imprisoned for murder, rape, slavery, child abuse, and a lot of other things we think are crimes in the US. So quote away.

    For an Islamic’s leader interpretation and translation of the verse you quote about friendship, see:


  31. witchiwoman says:

    9/11 gave me empathy for the people of other lands who have had their cities bombed by us, and their firemen killed, and their families left in ruins. When 9/11 happened, I understood what they must feel toward us and other countries who send missiles into their city centers without regard for the life within. Now Americans know what it feels like to have our homeland attacked. The rest of the world has known this for many years. And all we can do is whine about how unfair it is??? Please.

  32. The key word in this letter is “rational.”

    When we can rationalize bigotry, we’ve lost that which makes America great.

  33. It sounds to me like “the ends justifies the means” explains a lot about Islamic teachings. In which case, we should indeed be wary, because when that’s in place, duplicity and deceit are permitted, indeed blessed. As is murder.

  34. sozo, your little clip about the naming of Cordoba shows just how far the fear and lies will take a person. Look at the imam’s own words about the naming of Cordoba. Cordoba was a site of peace prosperity and religious tolerance for centureis under Islamic rule. Then the Christians took over and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Muslims and thousands of Jews. In one day alone in 1496, over 4,000 Jews were executed at the cathedral of Cordoba because they did not convert. When Rauf was told about the Christian memory of the events in Cordoba, that being the embarrasing and awkward slaughter of innocents because they were not Christian instead of what the Jews call the “Golden Years” of religious tolerance in Europe, he quickly changed the name to Park 51. It is Christians who should be totally embarrased about pointing out the name Cordoba means slaughter when the Christians were in power, but peace when the Muslims were in power.

    Please try to keep up with the facts, not propaganda.

  35. btw, sozo, Raymond Ibrahim is a Coptic Christian “scholar” whose lifelong mission has been to discredit Muslims. He is a favorite on Fox because he sounds like a Muslim scholar, but all he is is a sad example of a person bent on revenge who will make up anything and everything to present distortions. Please google his name and you will find a lot of sites which show how poor his scholarship is and why he is out for revenge. Fox loves to hype commentators who will bring confusion and comntinue the ignorance that they like to foist on the American public.

  36. sozo….aren’t you the same poster who complains when Christians are blamed for the actions/statements of a few Christian ministers? And how that isn’t fair?

    I guess your “fair-mindedness” extends only as far as conservative Christianity goes….

  37. sumner, you actually have a friend who asks you for an opinion? I thought the cells at Western State were sound proof.

  38. Amergain says:

    Bigotry is so entrenched in the American psyche that it may be impossible. Bigots (mostly right wing conservatives and Christians) have been part of our history since 1609. Jesus says love thy neighbour; help the poor and the sick. Christian Conservatives have justified killing Native Americans from before our Revolution and continuous in “Indian Wars” since then. Indian children were stolen by Christian missionaries to live in prison like schools. They were punished for speaking native language or mentioning native beliefs. They were heathens of course.

    America was economically successfully because of the Black slave trade. Millions of Africans died in the Dark Passage. It was justified because Africans were declared inferior. Irish immigrants were blocked from jobs because they were Catholic. Irish was classified as an inferior race. Anti-Semitism has been as American as Apple Pie. The Jews killed Jesus of course. However, the Gospel shows Romans killed him. Anti-Atheism has been harsh against non-believers, especially since 1950 with the rise of militant conservative fundamentalism driving by fear and hate. Now anti-Islam is popular. Defending a good American Muslim gets ad hominem attacks as this thread shows.

    Everybody is familiar with homophobic hatred. Gays were targets of Christian Terrorist Eric Rudolph (Christian Identity.) Bigotry is irrational and mostly the mentality of the ignorant and conservative.

  39. Amergain says:

    the3rdpigshouse says:
    August 23, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Nazi flags are not acceptable at ground zero, nor should the acceptance of islamic mosques be acceptable – both represent anti-American belief systems!!

    You say Nazi flags are not acceptable at ground zero. Then you equate Islamic Mosques with Nazism as “anti-American Belief systems.”

    Are you Glen Beck? You show his same ignorant bigotry. Nazism is unacceptable because it is an anti-American. But Nazism is a Christian belief system as outlined by Hitler in Mein Kampf. Hitler overthrew the post WWI Democratic Weimar Republic in 1933, He then declared Germany Christian with worker taxes going to the Lutheran or Catholic Churches. Nazi Germany did not allow freedom of religion or the other rights of the Weimar Republic. The Weimar Republic was democratic with no established religion. The Christian German Reich was a totalitarian Christian Theocracy. It was a deviant form of Christianity and it was anti-American and racist.

    Al Qaeda is a deviant and evil form of Islam. It does not represent more than a small percentage of the world’s billion Muslims. If you equate Al Qaeda with Islam then you must equate Nazism with Christianity. You can’t have a double standard. If a Mosque at ground zero offends Christians, then a Christian Church by the Holocaust Museum in DC would offend Jews and all of us Agnostic-Atheist Americans with a moral compass.

    Let Muslims build a Mosque two blocks from ground zero. To ban the Mosque is definitely anti-American and anti-First Amendment. I would let Christians build a Church near the Holocaust Museum but not if the Church is Southern Baptist, Aryan Nations, or displays swastikas. Those are openly anti-American, anti-black, and anti-Semitic.

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