Letters to the Editor

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GAZA: Hamas wants uninspected shipments

Letter by Philip Peterson, Puyallup on June 4, 2010 at 2:43 pm with 104 Comments »
June 7, 2010 9:11 am

If groups want to ship humanitarian items to Gaza, why not offload them to Egypt, and have Egypt forward them? I suspect the reason they avoid this is that Egypt (or any country) is not going to allow freight to be offloaded and forwarded across their country without inspecting it.

It seems to me what is actually being sought is the ability to ship items directly to Hamas, without any inspection of those items.

Clearly there are not many motives for secrecy of this sort, unless your ultimate goal is to start shipping military ordnance once you have the right to drop items directly into the hands of Hamas uninspected.

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Leave a comment Comments → 104
  1. Earth_watch says:


    The blockade on Gaza is cruel. Flotillas to get aid in are last-ditch desperation after many attempts to reason with an insane Israeli government… and, even if you believe the aid should be stopped and redirected via Israeli controlled check-points that still doesn’t give Israel the right to send commandos onto unarmed ships and kill people!

    Yes, a few Muslims have committed acts of terrorism. That doesn’t make all Muslims terrorists.

    Yes, the holocaust was horrible. That doesn’t mean Israel gets to commit atrocities on another group of innocent people.

    Reports from eye witnesses now reveal that Israeli commandos were shooting from helicopters, then walked over the dead and put a gun to a child’s head to control the captain. This is a sick, sick, sick, government… like an abused child inflicting the same abuse onto another, except this is new generation!

    There hasn’t been a single report that anything but food and building supplies were being brought in on the boats. Speculating about uninspected items is what fuels this kind of horrible outcome, but even such speculation could have simply resulted in detainment and inspection in Israeli waters… not bloodshed. Israel has killed far more innocent people than Hamas.

  2. MarksonofDarwin says:

    “Reports from eye witnesses” is code for un-substantiated rumors.
    But, from the rest of your ramblings, it appears that rumors are your forte.

    Here’s some more propaganda.


    It’s a biased piece, but it’s actually quite tame and benign compared to the shrill lies that are being screamed by Palestinian supporters.

    ‘There hasn’t been a single report that anything but food and building supplies were being brought in on the boats”

    Are you deliberately lying, or do you really not know that there has indeed been weapons found and seized on these “flotillas of deceit”.
    If you know this or not….it’s disgusting that you would assert such a thing without first finding the truth.

    I’ve grown tired of the lies and innuendo. These flotillas are NOT a last ditch effort to feed and clothe those living in Gaza. Israel DOES send supplies in.
    Those who support Palestinians do yourselves no favors by deliberately lying and distorting the truth.

    There really are many, many valid complaints that Israel has acted in bad faith. When you get carried away with your anger, and start spewing pure lies, then you have just negated your entire argument. If you are lying about ONE thing….then EVERYthing you say comes into question, even when it’s the truth. Why don’t supposed “activists” get that?

  3. GAZA: Hamas wants uninspected shipments

    Yeah? Well obama wants the hole plugged and that won’t happen either.

  4. LuckyCharm says:

    “Israel DOES send supplies in.”

    How about not blockading them in the first place?

  5. beerBoy says:

    MoD – If the blockade was only for defensive purposes and if Israel was allowing all humanitarian aid in to counter the huge humanitarian crisis created through Operation Cast Lead then Israel would have no problem managing public relations about this.

    But, statements from high ranking Israelis demonstrate that the blockade is, in part, there to inflict collective punishment upon the Gazans for continuing to support Hamas as their democratically elected leadership.

    All the rhetoric about rockets and terrorists (which are real concerns for Israelis) doesn’t make the blockade of food, building supplies, spices, toys, crayons, etc. correct.

  6. beerBoy says:

    Autopsies show that the 9 were shot in the head and in the back.

  7. Beerboy, That illustrates some damn fine shooting.

  8. Wouldn’t expect anything less from an elite fighting force like the Israeli commandos. Next time, strap the painball guns to your sides, and go in with live ammunition. 9 terrorist supporters dead…..by their own choice. They chose to fight with the commandos. Nobody made that choice on the other boats, and they had no problems. Great letter-it is that simple. The blockade(by Israel AND Egypt) is part of an ongoing conflict with Hamas. This tragedy could have been thwarted by a few strong words from our President before the ships set sail(they are sending more ships right now). This is NOT about humanitarian aid-this is an attempt to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

  9. Curmudgeon1 says:

    Excellent letter, Mr. Peterson. The world’s hypocrisy towards Israel continues unabated. Yes, they’ve made some wrong moves in recent years, particularly the continued expansion into Jerusalem. But the naive apologists for the Palestinians conveniently ignore the fact that Gaza shares a border with Egypt; a “sealed” border.
    When the Arab world finally no longer has a use for the “Palestinian cause” as a distraction and buffer, there will, overnight, be peace with Israel. The Palestinians have always been, and, sadly, always will be pawns in the Arab game.
    Tell me how one negotiates with an entity that continues to vow your utter destruction. I believe that is what is known as a “non-starter”.
    I’d like to see the reaction of all these pro-Palestinians if Lakewood was shelling Tacoma on a regular basis.

  10. Where do you get your up to date info B? Do have a link regarding the autopsies?
    Statementsfrom high ranking Hamas, Palestinian, and Iranian, and… (you get the picture) have demonstrated they will not tolerate a Jewish state… or tolerate Jews in general… talk about collective punishment.

  11. AreYouHighOrWhat says:

    Well gee whiz, I just don’t know where all the hate for Israel comes from, maybe I’m not the only one watching too much South Park (LOL). Bottom line, Israel has every right to defend itself and is more than generous to people habitually shooting rockets at them from school yards. The blockade is fair, and is exactly what we’d do to one of our neighbors if they became hostile. Israel allows food, water, and electricity to go to the Palestinians, even as they plot their destruction……they suddenly seem pretty reasonable when you realize that they’re still extending a helping hand while the Palestinians spit at them.

    In the imaginary world that I rule over with benevolence, those people would be on Survivor island forced to live together Pioneer Farm style with just the basic essentials (food, water, shelter, no electric!), and after 20 or 40 years if they’ve figured out a way to live peacefully with each other I might let them start interacting with the rest of the civilized world.

    Israel might not always be right, but they’re not doing anything wrong with this flotilla business. I suspect Americans (and TCC members, yeah, I saw you up there (lol)) whining on behalf of the terrorists are the same people who think Arizona did something wrong by having the nerve to enforce the Federal laws. Even Cartman would side with Israel on this issue.

  12. There sure are a lot of Tacomans who know what happened on that boat, in detail no less!

  13. Roncella says:

    Israel, Has every right to defend itself. Hamas has openingly stated its goal is to destroy Israel. You cannot trust a group of terrorist and enter peace talks with them when their goal is to destroy you.

  14. beerBoy says:

    Leper – shooting in the back is “some damn fine shooting”?

    And….Egypt is 2nd to only Israel on the US dole so any inferences drawn by their actions leads to a logical conclusion – they are 2nd only to Israel on the US dole.

  15. LuckyCharm says:

    Interestingly enough, Israel helped create Hamas in much the same way as we helped create Al Qaeda.

  16. Sumner401 says:

    And a lot more that THINK they know what happened, in detail no less.

  17. It IS fine shooting when you consider the accuracy and training required in being so precise when hitting a target, especially in the head where the effect is usually instant and painless for the target. As opposed to machine gun spraying indescriminately, hitting people who are not lethal threats, causing injuries that may not be fatal to intended targets and causing them extreme pain. So if they were head shot it shows how well trained the troops were, and further it sends a message to terrorist sympathizers “We’re great shots!” I would encourage all libs to make like a non-Hitler and stop hating the Jews.

  18. Oh my Lord, Lucky you have gone over the edge; no turning back I fear.

    Yes indeed, we are responsible for Al Qaeda and Hamas. Had you been alive in the 40’s I’m sure you would have blamed your own country for the Holocaust as well.

    And please, spare us all with further declarations of your love for the U.S.

    You represent an entire generations of kids whose brainwashing clearly is complete. Now go do two Hail Obamas and promise to continue spreading the word…and I’m NOT talking about The Word Nancy Pelosi was talking about.

  19. MarksonofDarwin says:

    There is an ongoing war in that region. Using a blockade is a perfectly legitimate and legal tactic of war. You don’t like the list? I agree that it seems some items could very well be included. That sometimes happens when you have a government bureaucracy handling things….it’s inefficient.

    This entire argument is beside the point.

    While living in Gaza is no picnic, it is NOT the bullet ridden, corpse strewn place some would have us believe.

    I read a trite observation yesterday:
    If Hamas puts down their guns, there will be no more war.
    If Israel puts down their guns, there will be no more Israel.

    Is that entirely true?….at first glance it seems like it, but I think not.
    Would Israel really stop all expansion?…it hasn’t yet.
    Would Hamas really give up their jihad?…it hasn’t yet.

    This horrible incident was handled badly by Israel.
    The “activists” are complicit in their own demise, and are perfectly willing to sacrifice the lives of all on board (including children) to advance their goal of dismantling Israel.

    Personally, I find the “activists” to be the more repulsive players in this. It’s pure evil to put innocents in harm’s way…

    As a veteran of the Iraq war, I’m astonished that you don’t understand why Israel and Egypt maintain a blockade. Most civilians get it…..

  20. LuckyCharm says:

    No, I really don’t understand the purpose of the blockade, unless it’s to starve out the Palestinians. If Israel wanted the territory, they could easily take it and be done with it. But instead, they just keep quietly building settlements and generally trying to make life as hard as possible for the Palestinians. What do they hope to accomplish by that? To stir up hatred? What else could be the goal?

  21. Pat_riot says:

    Who cares about this seriously? Hamas is a bunch of terrorists and Israel like any good people has a right to defend their country. If they wanted to kill the “humanitarian” flotilla they could have just sunk the ship or come aboard the boat with semi-automatic machine guns and wiped them all out. Instead they stopped and asked to inspect the ship.. and did so by force with PAINTBALL GUNS as they needed to to protect their country. The stupid terrorist organization completed their staged “crisis” and Israel is the bad guys once again. I mean seriously.. how long are we going to let a bunch of backward muslim idiots dictate world policy. Maybe next time Israel won’t be so nice and they’ll just blow up the boat and get rid of the threat the easy way.. since that’s what everyone wants to think they’re goal is anyway.. might as well do it instead of being humanitarian as they are in dealing with these terrorists.

  22. MarksonofDarwin says:


    You clearly have no idea what’s happening in that region.

    Educate yourself, and then get back to me.

    Do you need that Google link again?

  23. LuckyCharm says:

    No, I’ve got the link, MsoD.
    Here’s another one.

    The attack, BTW, also weakens US-Turkish relations unless we denounce it and start putting more pressure on Israel for a peaceful solution. In fact, many countries are denouncing that raid — what do you think it’s going to do to our relations with them? This isn’t just about a spat between Israel and Hamas — it has global implications.

  24. donjames says:

    beerBoy wrote:
    “Autopsies show that the 9 were shot in the head and in the back.”

    bB, this from Reuters, citing The Guardian (hardly conservative sources):

    “Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, the Guardian quoted Buyuk as saying.”

    C:mon, bB, if your spin on the account were true then all of the fatalities would have been as a result of being shot in the head or back. Does that not strike you the least bit odd? I mean, even this story doesn:t break it down for you – it could be 1 in the head 4 in the back or any combination thereof. Can you say BFD?

    Oh, and Buyuk… he would be the Turkish patholgist.

    Please, we know where your sentiments lie, but can we try keeping the facts straight. Geeez. How about using a source that’s at least center-left for a change.

    The spin on this story from muslims and leftists is waaay over the top.

  25. madmike272 says:

    This only proves that Hamas as well as the terrorist supporters that post here are insane. The time is coming, when Israel will be forced to eliminate palestine as an entity, once and for all. I am starting to believe that this is the only true solution to this problem.

  26. MarksonofDarwin says:

    You must be pressed for time LC.
    That’s the only logical explanation as to why you haven’t spent any time researching this topic at all.

    I’ll give you a hint at a possible head start on your education.
    When you say:

    “If Israel wanted the territory, they could easily take it and be done with it.”

    You are un-wittingly showing yourself to be utterly ignorant on the history and recent events of this region. It will take more time than you’ve devoted so far to see just how much catching up you need to do.

    I also anticipate the meaningless flurry of links from you that you’ve self-selected because they will sorta support your pre-suppositions.

    You are completely un-aware of your confirmation bias….but trust me….it’s very clear for any casual observer to see.
    It’s best to read ALL sides, and THEN form your opinion.
    That bit of advice goes for this subject more than any other I can think of…there’s lots of propaganda from the Israelis AND the Palestinians.

    As a bonus, here’s a link to an article about Hamas attacking the very UN NGO you linked to:


    And another:


    See what I mean?
    It takes more effort than simply waiting for your info. to be doled out by your favorite sources…

  27. larsman says:

    The Balfour Declaration ratified by the League of Nations in 1924 recognized the right of return of Jews to their anciently covenanted homeland and also provided for the end of the Ottoman Caliphate. The newly formed United Nations unanimously approved the official formation of present day Israel and was summarily recognized by President Truman in less than 11 minutes from the UN’s announcement. Between 1924 and 1948 the Jews bought their property from the former owners who had for the past two millennium let it become a fallow desert. The Jordanian govt. expelled over 10,000 of its less desirable citizens and enlisted the like minded support of the surrounding Muslim countries to wage a continuous proxy war against Israel. The term “pales- tine ” is a geographical descriptive term from first-century B.C.E. Latin that has never denoted a specific race or nationality–LC…

  28. LuckyCharm says:

    Sorry if I trust official UN reports more than I do anything from MonstersAndCritics.com, MsoD (BTW, you link to a nonexistent page).

    Your condescending tone implies that you have greater knowledge than I do, yet nobody could prove that by your comments. You add nothing of value to the conversation.

  29. MarksonofDarwin says:

    It’s typical of you LC, to ignore the Reuters piece.
    I’m condescending because you are behaving like an azz. Remember…it’s not my fault that you decided to comment on something you know nothing about. If you’re embarrassed, that’s too bad.

    I am NOT here to educate you. If you are not getting the info. you so desperately need from me….that is by design. I’m done explaining things to you, when you can not comprehend even the most basic subject….let alone this one.
    It’s time for you to put on your big girl pants, and find things out for yourself.
    I DO have greater knowledge than you do…as do most other posters here.

    I told you before, and I meant it, that I was no longer playing your juvenile game.
    You ask questions as if you’re interested in someone’s opinion….you are NOT.
    What you do, is then pluck some insignificant point out of context, and pretend that your skewed interpretations are the crux of the conversation.
    They’re not….and I have YET to see you actually engage in an intellectual discourse with anybody.

  30. LuckyCharm says:

    MsoD, your Reuters piece addresses an attack by some whacked-out fundamentalist group that was actually condemned by Hamas. They are actually attacking Hamas, too! So what’s your point?

    You can write paragraph after paragraph about how I’m so wrong and ignorant and uninformed, without a single credible statement to back up your assertions. I’m glad that at least your fingertips are getting some exercise, because your brain certainly isn’t.

  31. beerBoy says:

    This may be hard for some of you to grasp but Israel’s security is threatened directly by Israel’s actions.

    Israel is the power in the struggle. Israel is the only player in position to make a change to the struggle – if, indeed, that is her hope.

    However, if continued expansion is the intent then continued conflict is guaranteed.

    Israel cannot win the propaganda war when she has adopted the ghettoization tactics of Hitler and Stalin.

    Israel seriously botched the challenge of the flotilla. How will she respond in July to the ship being sent by ”Jüdische Stimme,” or Jewish Voice for Peace, along with European Jews for a Just Peace in the Near East, and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK) ?

  32. beerBoy says:

    MoD – you are reaching when you suggest that bureaucratic oversight is the cause for the onerous list of contraband items.

    Israel’s policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. ‘The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,’ he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

    Collective punishment of a civilian population is not a legitimate tactic of war….or as is the case with Gaza….a legitimate tactic of a jailor.

  33. LuckyCharm says:

    And not only Israel’s security, but her actions put us in a very tricky situation, too. If we don’t strongly condemn the attack, our relations with Turkey could suffer or be ruined, along with the many countries that are jumping on the bandwagon to denounce Israel’s actions. Keep it up, and in the end, it might be Israel and US against the world.

  34. Roncella says:

    beerBoy, I don’t remember you being more wordy on any subject as you have been about the shipments and Israel.

    Do you believe that Israel actually has a right to protect herself from Hamas bombs and attacks, even if it means using a blockade to check for weapons ?? This in response to Hamas which has vowed to destroy Israel.

    As well read as you are, you must see that Israel that tiny small piece of land, must have some very special significance that it could cause such stong emotions in so many different nations just by existing.

  35. LibertyBell says:

    Self Defense; Americas Support of Afganistan, during Russian War?
    Terrorism; Americas Claim in Afganistan, during American War?

    Self Defense; A rabbi, arguing against his religion’s leadership, in the Nazi Gun Control Act of 1938
    Terrorism; A rabbi, getting a Roman, to do your dirty work, to nail a man to a cross

  36. donjames says:

    bB, your link to a Guardian article that is over four years old is suspect enough. But your cherry-picking of one paragraph from the article in order to further your contention doesn’t hold water in light of the fact that, since the ceasefire of January 2009, well over a million tons of humanitarian supplies entered Gaza from Israel – that’s almost a ton of aid for every man woman and child in Gaza.

    The article you linked is so ancient as to have been written a full 2 1/2 years before Israel attacked the Gaza Strip.

    LC wrote
    ”If we don’t strongly condemn the attack, our relations with Turkey could suffer or be ruined, along with the many countries that are jumping on the bandwagon to denounce Israel’s actions.”

    Perfect illustration of leftist/ 0bama style finger-in-the-wind diplomacy. Thanks, LC. Once again we see how this current, dangerous way of thinking would place greater importance on world opinion, however bigoted, than on reality.

    Bandwagon, indeed.

  37. Ron – I felt just as strongly about South Africa and Apartheid…….

  38. donjames……Do you really want me to go into more recent history? The objectives of Operation Cast Lead and the use of white phosphorus on civilian populations?

  39. LuckyCharm says:

    They’re doing more than just blockade, Ron, although a blockade in itself is cruel, since it prevents rebuilding materials from entering, leaving the Gazans imprisoned among the devastation wreaked in January last year with no means to reconstruct what little they already had. This merciless attack on a penned-in civilian population, of which half are under fifteen years old, was perfectly timed to occur before our current President took office. It followed a fragile ceasefire brokered by Egypt, which neither side fully respected, although Israel was the first to break terms by encroaching into Gaza and not lifting its blockade as agreed to.

    I don’t know if this link will work, but if it does, I hope you have the stomach to watch it:

  40. LuckyCharm says:

    Nope, guess you can’t embed video in this system, so here’s a website. I hope you will form any opinions after, not before, viewing the video.

  41. LuckyCharm says:

    dj, which is more dangerous, in your opinion: having more allies, or having less? Having more enemies, or less? Being on the side of decency and justice, or the side of reckless vengeance and hatred? We might be the world’s biggest bully right now, but eventually things will reach a point where that won’t be enough.

  42. I would just like to know how many of you liberals have been to Israel or Gaza or anywhere else outside the United States. And Canada and Mexico doesn’t count.
    Do you tree-hugging bone heads realize the size of the Israeli state and the size of it’s enemies that surround it?
    Why don’t you all put down the joint, bong, pipe or whatever and screw the lid back on your sniffing glue and stop listening to your coward professor’s and reading your MoveOn and watching those brain deads on MSNBC.
    You are what our enemies want out of our country. Clue-less cowards that want to be friends to them and believe all of the crap they put out there.
    All you liberals are a embarassment to our country. You all make me want to puke! Anytime, anyplace!

  43. LuckyStrike,
    I now believe from sources that you did serve in the Army. The Salvation Army.
    There is no way that someone that served in the Gulf in “the sh*t” would think the way you do unless that individual came back and went on a two year drug binge or something.
    Every veteran that I served with or talk to, which is alot, doesn’t even come close to your thinking pattern.
    A few did vote for the “Obamanation” but have admitted that they feel for the “Hope and Change” crap but will not make the same mistake again.
    I know that you Army guys/gals don’t like being deployed except Korea and Germany but the Gulf has given you a little taste of what my Corps.(the “p” and “s” are silent if Barack is reading) does on a daily basic. Within 24 hours, anywhere in the world, boots on the ground, ready to fight.
    No disrepect to any that served in any branch. You all answered the call and weren’t drafted. That says a lot about a persons character. Pretending you served shows cowardice not character.
    We can get together sometime LuckyStrike and discuss this. If you are a true Vet, I honor that and will say these people are full of crap and apoligize. It not, “You have alot of explaining to do Lucy.”
    Happy D-Day 66 years ago! Those were true heroes!

  44. LuckyCharm says:

    “There is no way that someone that served in the Gulf in “the sh*t” would think the way you do…”

    Maybe you should talk to some of these fellow Marines, then. Personally, I don’t know how anybody comes back from there NOT convinced of the utter futility of trying to make that place free and safe and decent without a political solution to their tensions. All the bombs and bullets in the world aren’t going to force people to live peacefully amongst themselves.

  45. donjames says:

    beerBoy wrote:
    ”Do you really want me to go into more recent history? The objectives of Operation Cast Lead and the use of white phosphorus on civilian populations?”

    LOL, I think you just did. By all means bB, continue. I hear red herring is in season.

    LC, I seriously doubt that the rhetoric of a few of our so-called allies endangers our own security. Throwing in with them, on the other hand…

    And the notion that we should always go along with the majority opinion of other nation on matters of policy – foreign or domestic – is appeasement, pure and simple. And history has shown how well policies of appeasement have worked. The notion that taking a stand may create more enemies is truly farcical. As the worlds only true superpower, we have only to breath in order to create nations/ people/ religions that hate us – comes with the turf. ( I would love to see you make your argument to the Chinese though.)

    I find your suggestion that our historical support for the state of Israel would put us ”on the side of reckless vengeance and hatred” extremely naive. And your characterization of the US as ”the world’s biggest bully” is really all we need to know about your positions.

  46. donjames – Denial isn’t a river in Egypt where you can catch fish and call them red herring.

  47. Marine: When I served, it was the soldiers who were silent about their service who were most often the bravest in battle. Most often they were the ones who you’d want in the trenches with you. If there was an opportunity for heroism, it was always the silent type who rose to the call. Silently.

    Those who bragged and boasted, thumped their chests and tattooed themselves with warrior-like symbols, were best left to do the paperwork.

    What should happen to soldiers who habitually denigrate their Commander in Chief?

  48. aislander says:

    It is obviously of vital importance to lefties to obfuscate and paint a spurious picture of this situation. “Atrocities” has a different meaning (and a much lower threshold) when applied to Israel than to the Muslim world…

  49. TheSlag says:

    With a bit of foresight, Israel would realize now that it needs some friends. Shooting Turks in the head from helicopters in a fit of rage has cost them military cooperation from the last friend in the region.
    With the American fiscal situation, pretty soon we won’t be so happy to send a billion dollars per year for weapons to Israel. We need to clean up some oil and see how we can pay back dept and perhaps fix a bridge or a highway every now and then.
    I recommend anger management for Israel. They can’t see the future for all the hate in fear is clouding thinking. Once things get bad and they have an issue bigger then home-made rockets that virtually cause no causalities, they will find themselves without help. Crying wolf only get’s you so far. Then you need friends.

  50. Well said Ai.

    Good observation cirrus… I assume you were talking about Luckycharm. She , more than anyone here, has touted her military service at every turn… not to mention how she habitually denigrated the Commander in Chief during the time she served…

  51. If LC is on active duty like the Marine claims he is, the same rules apply. Is she?

  52. Roncella says:

    Need someone to check out HB1388. It allows 20 million dollars to be used for Migration Assistance by executive order to thousands of Palestinians many with ties to Hamas to settle in the U.S. , It was signed and appears in the Federal Register.


    Need to know if its true. I can’t hardly believe that this bill would have been approved without anyone in the Press or the Congress discussing it.

  53. How is it the the liberals are so quick to support illegal immigrants, use the words “racist” and ‘bigot” and “homophobe”, but display a singular hatred towards Israel and the Jews? They are really showing who they are. How is it that LuckyCharm is always 100% predictable to be on the wrong side of every issue? She and her few allies who post here demonstrate why liberalism is known as a mental disorder. Admit it libs, you are the real racists, anti-Semite bigots.

  54. LuckyCharm says:

    Why is it that some of you keep making these fantastic leaps? If you condemn Israel’s bloody raid on humanitarian ships, you love Al Qaeda. If you believe it’s a good thing to have more allies than enemies in the world, you support “appeasement.” If you think the Iraq war was wrong and never should have been waged, you hate the troops. If you think health insurance should be affordable by all, you want a nanny state. (Yet we don’t mind going around the rest of the world trying to “fix” everybody else’s problems at our own crushing expense — just don’t use any of that money to try to help American citizens, because they should learn to help themselves! Oh, and the health insurance thing only applies to people under 65 — after 65, you should be proud to live on the federal dole.)

    On one of these threads, somebody wondered what sort of thought process led me to my political leanings. And to that I would say, the simple process of logical thought. Not feelings, not abstract principles like “free market” (which is not the same thing as corporatism) or “sanctity of life” (which is exactly the reason abortion should NOT be criminalized, because all empirical evidence shows that in practice, making abortions safer and more accessible actually decreases the rate at which they occur), and so on. It’s a simple matter of defining goals and asking what will get us there. Do we want to ensure all US residents are here legally? Will having the police demand proof of citizenship get us there? Not necessarily, and it might just hurt more than it helps. Do we want a vibrant economy that encourages entrepreneurship? Will less regulation get us there? No, that only allows small business to be driven out by corporations, until eventually there’s no such thing as a mom-and-pop store anymore. Etc. etc.

    There’s a way that helps, and a way that hurts. Righties like to think they can strong-arm everybody into being the responsible, hardworking, decent citizens they imagine themselves to be, but when has that ever worked?

  55. LuckyCharm says:

    Oops, you’ve been duped again, Ron! But where do you find that stuff on the Federal Register? Oh wait, don’t tell me — you didn’t, because you never bother to check anything out for yourself, you just regurgitate whatever nonsense appears in your email inbox.

    And cirrus, I’m no longer on active duty — why would you ask?

  56. Roncella says:

    LCharm, I was not duped again. I was asking for others to check it out and see what they could find out about it. Fact Check.Org has the complete story.

    Your response to some of us who post here about how you could possibly have become so far left in all your opinions and beliefs are not explained away by your comment of using logical thought. There has to more to your story than that. Its not anyones business why you believe as you do its your right to believe what ever you want to.

    However it is so odd that someone is so one sided on every issue with no middle ground, always to the left/liberal/progressive way of reasoning and believing.

  57. Sumner401 says:

    “However it is so odd that someone is so one sided on every issue with no middle ground, always to the left/liberal/progressive way of reasoning and believing.”

    From what I’ve seen of your postings aren’t the pot calling the kettle black?
    You are very one sided, rightwing, on every issue to the point of being ridiculous.

  58. Your idea of logical thought is what’s in question I believe LC. You read very biased sources and accept stats from biased sources and from THERE you draw your conclusions. That has little to do with logical thinking.

  59. donjames says:

    beerBoy wrote:

    ”donjames – Denial isn’t a river in Egypt where you can catch fish and call them red herring.”

    bB, I’m not denying anything. In fact I acknowledge there seems to be some evidence Israel used white phosphorous shells in a civilian area which, if true, would be a criminal act sort of along the same lies as… oh, say lobbing Katyusha rockets, from hospitals and schools, at civilian populations.

    So are you looking for a moral equivalency argument here? Cause I could have sworn the discussion was about the validity of Israeli self defense actions, not activities that occurred over four years ago during the lead-up to, and eventual prosecution of, Operation Cast Lead.

    Wonder what kind of herring swims in the Red Sea.

  60. LuckyCharm says:

    “LCharm, I was not duped again. I was asking for others to check it out and see what they could find out about it.”

    Why, Ron? Don’t you know how to use the Internet yet? Is that why you depend on Fox News instead of checking stuff out for yourself?

    “You read very biased sources and accept stats from biased sources and from THERE you draw your conclusions.”

    I cite my impartial and independent sources any time I quote stats. You are welcome — encouraged, even! — to challenge any of them. And I heartily invite you to dispute my thought processes as outlined above, or anywhere, regardless of which sources you believe might be influencing my opinion. Can you offer a credible, reasonable rebuttal to any of the points I raised in my previous post?

  61. I would beg the libs to PLEASE STOP hating Jews. They are the chosen people of God.

  62. beerBoy says:

    donjames – the funny thing about moral equivalency…..the units are rarely the same on each side

    “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” –Rabbi Ya’acov Perin

    There have been an estimated 2 million Palestinian killed since 1948 – according to Rabbi Perin (and Ariel Sharon) – worth two Jewish fingernails

    “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail. … — repeated by Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001

  63. Sumner401 says:

    How is it that having problems with the actions of Israel over the decades, and there have been many cases where they went too far, equates to “hating jews”??

  64. Roncella says:

    Summer401, biased comments aboiut having problems with “the actions of Israel over the decades”, you must mean when Israel has had to defend its people against some of its neighbors who are bent on the destruction of Israel, right Summer ???

    LCharm, In reading most of your posts for some time now I have noticed that on every issue you are always on the extreme far left of opinion. Yes, you try and find blogs like google, huffington puff, and many others to try to back up your bias throught process with some facts, usually your stretching the truth to fit your opinions.

    LCharm You seem to have an anger just under the surface, about your past service experiences, and many other policies that America has implemented. All some of us were wondering is why so much bitterness against the U.S.A. ????

  65. “impartial and independent sources” … LC you’re making me smile.

    Okay, let’s talk Turkey, so to speak.

    Turkey has a lot to lose by going loco over this flotilla incident, namely its status as an international peace keeping entity.

    What’s happening in the streets of Turkey (that which captures the interest of hungry photo journalists)does not reflect what’s happening or must happen in diplomatic corridors.

    Please go to Christian Science Monitor’s commentary page and look for the piece titled “Turkey Must Tone Down the Gaza Flotilla Rhetoric.”

    Further, there is this, straight from Turkey’s own Erdogan–

    “We are a country that wants to maintain its ties both with the West and East,” Erdogan said in October. “There is no such thing as breaking from one side and shifting to another one.”

    You see Lucky, you don’t seem to realize two things. First, you don’t seem to recognize how your bias leads your reading choices and second, you presume that you, like those people in the streets, have all the facts. You may not be as visibly emotional as flag-wavers, but you are, I think, far more guided by your emotions than you think. But now I’m sure you will accuse me of psychoanalyzing you which I suppose I AM doing a bit so I will cease.

    We are armchair observers here. I don’t say a lot about the MIddle East because I know that I don’t know the complexities of that situation.

    Know thyself includes knowing your limitations. There’s a reason that THIS is your venue, LC.

  66. LuckyCharm says:

    Another giant leap, sozo. Where have I even suggested that Turkey or anybody should go “loco” over the incident? All I’ve said is that it has ramifications beyond Turkey and Israel themselves. It was a clear act of piracy on the open seas, and nobody can deny that it’s put us in a very difficult position vis-à-vis our desire for renewed Middle East peace talks. How you got from that to “going loco” is a mystery to me.

    Honestly, half of the opinions some of you people ascribe to me are simply fabrications of your own minds.

  67. But LC, because you are loquacious, some deductions about what makes you tick are reasonable I think. You reveal a lot about yourself to the astute reader. As do I, along with all the other frequent flyers.

    All I’m sayin is you, more than virtually anyone around here, strike a posture of expertise on virtually every subject. Reading a lot doesn’t make you a critical thinker, especially when you are as selective about WHAT you read as you are.

    If you don’t want to take a beating, stop flaunting pseudointelligence.

  68. “loquacious”

    big college word of the day!


  69. Oh Ron…..killing 2 million people can not be all in defense.

    Settling on all of the reliable water sources can not be in defense.

    Guaranteeing a “right of return” to people whose ancestors have not ever lived in the region while denying it to those whose owners are still alive can not be in defense.

    Penning a people in a ghetto and then attacking the structure necessary to maintain life (hospitals, water treatment plants, farms, etc) and then preventing any materials for rebuilding to enter into the ghetto can not be in defense.

  70. frankiethomas says:

    Remeber when we used to get new letters to the editor every day? WHAT IS THE DEAL?

  71. LuckyCharm says:

    Ah, so because sozo likes to read hidden meanings into everything (a classic Glenn Beck trick), I’m now supposed to answer for what I haven’t even said?

    And since you can’t really pick apart the facts I present — and you’re welcome to do so whenever you think you can — you do the next best thing and attack my general mien and online demeanor. I must be wrong, because of my “pseudointelligence.” Look at the pot calling the kettle black! Why bother to refute actual arguments when you can just ignore them and go after some vague “deductions” instead? It makes you seem so lofty without having to do any real intellectual legwork, right? And it really impresses the likes of Roncella, I’ll bet. There’s another one who’s oddly fact-averse.

  72. MarksonofDarwin says:

    The Jews have lived in Israel since Moses’ time.
    If you are alluding to the expansion that Israel has been building, then that is an entirely different subject.

    The deaths of Palestinians in Gaza did NOT happen in a vacuum.
    There would be thousands of lives spared if Hamas (and it’s predecessors) did not build rocket launchers in the midst of populated areas. (A strict violation of Geneva Convention law) They also fire bombs indiscriminately into Israel’s civilian population. (A strict violation of Geneva Convention law) Hamas soldiers use women and children as human shields during skirmishes (that they started). And again….A strict violation of Geneva Convention law…and also the most abhorrent.

    You can’t have it both ways….you are right to point out where Israel has flouted the law, (white phosphorous for example) yet you can’t completely ignore, and even deny that Hamas actually has zero interest in playing by the rules….mainly because they don’t have to. Somebody will come up with a handy excuse for their wicked ways.

  73. Sumner401 says:

    “Summer401, biased comments aboiut having problems with “the actions of Israel over the decades”, you must mean when Israel has had to defend its people against some of its neighbors who are bent on the destruction of Israel, right Summer ???”

    No roncella that is not what I mean and I think you know it.
    Israel has gone overboard many times in it’s so called ‘defense’ and for some, you included, that is perfectly OK and anyone who happens to question their actions you claim that is “hating jews”, which it nothing of the kind.

    If Israel whats to be a big boy country then they have to play by the rules, just like the rest of us, if they step out of line, they should be slapped back into place same as any other country.

    Don’t you agree?
    Or is that “hating jews”?

  74. Roncella says:

    If Israel put up no defence for its people it would be destroyed very quickly by its neighbors and others. What Israel has done is defend itself and its people over the years.

    Iran and Hamas, and many other Arab nations have said their goal is to destroy Israel and its people. You can’t enter peace talks with those who are openingly set on your destruction and nothing less…. Think about it…….

  75. LuckyCharm says:

    Ron, there is a big difference between “no defense” and forcefully boarding a peaceful flotilla in open waters, and opening fire when the crew resists. There’s a big difference between “no defense” and fencing an impoverished population up against the ocean and bombarding them.

    What Israel is doing to the Palestinians (and now anybody who tries to help them) is like firing napalm at a kid who’s throwing rocks at my window. Think I’d beat that rap?

  76. Sumner401 says:

    It has on many occasions far more then ‘defend’ itself, but you know that Roncella, why can’t you simply admit to it?
    Why is it OK in your mind for them to do what they have done over and over again?
    I’ve no problem with Israel or any other country defending itself, but when they cross the line and violate international law, why should Israel get pass after pass?

    Thank about that.

  77. Try restraining yourself when you don’t know much about a subject, LC. Just for kicks…or is there no subject where you do not deem yourself an expert?

  78. An important and oft-ignored point MoD. Thanks.

    As little as I know about this, I do know that black hat/white hat assessments are usually highly suspect. Those who’ve firmly placed a black hat (or is that racist?) on the U.S.A., and I won’t mention any names but it’s someone who believes herself to be fortunate and adorable, have little credibility.

    Clearly Israel should be held to high standards regarding the ways and means used to defend themselves, but as you point out, those same standards need to be held by the Palestinians.

  79. MarksonofDarwin says:

    You’re right sozo. About the I/P conflict and our (not) so adorable friend.

    This is not a black and white issue as you said, and this is the reason that moral equivalency only devolves into a shallow tit-for-tat back and forth.

    Many on both sides of this issue refuse to acknowledge any salient points put forth by the other side….I know this personally!

    Many times bB will make a point about Israel’s faults that I don’t like, or even that I don’t believe. Instead of pouncing back with some atrocious actions by the Palestinians, I TRY to actually do some research, and find out if what he (or someone else) is saying is truth or fiction. Sometimes I find that the accusations are exaggerated, but other times, I have to accept the facts as they are. It’s not something I enjoy, (I so love to be right!) but my purpose here is to learn new ideas, or strengthen my own stance on an issue….not to argue from ignorance.

    Which brings me to your other point….
    I’ve discovered that we all have different reasons for posting comments. I’ve stated my goal above. There really are those who are just sporting for a fight. They’re looking to “win”….whatever that means.

    To those who view this as some type of competition I say:

    You win.
    You have won this imaginary fight with me, and you should celebrate this victory with all the gusto and exuberance that you can muster, with no restraint.

    Besides, if left to their own devices, the more they post non-sensical and in-accurate conclusions, they show themselves for what they are far more efficiently than I ever could.

  80. Mark,
    I spent a few years as a moderator on a couple of political forums. Your attitude concerning the reasons behind posting is correct.

    Having the ability to edit posts, I did my best at being fair and in trying to keep the flaming to a minimum. I did find that simply removing the antagonism completely left the forum too sterile to be of interest.

    I tried, like yourself, to ask several times why people posted. I even started threads addressing the subject. I pled for reasonable discussion. Things would settle down for a short while, however it always returned to the same juvenile playground. c’est la guerre.

    Nice attempt though. You have my empathy… and you made me smile thinking of old times.


  81. LuckyCharm says:

    MsoD, less than two dozen Israelis have been killed by rockets fired from the Gaza strip in the past decade. On the other hand, the Israeli assault in 2008-2009 alone killed 1300 Palestinians and destroyed 4000 buildings.

    Of course Hamas is motivated to poke the tiger. That’s all it CAN do — it has no hopes of overpowering Israel militarily. Its only hope is to provoke Israel into enough outrageous retaliatory acts that the rest of the world will finally put a stop to Israel’s incursions into its territory and their oppressive tactics.

    Hamas recently issued a statement that it is now willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist. It has also been vigorously trying to police its rogue citizens that might still be wanting to launch rockets into Israel. But it must be real hard to do all that when your infrastructure is basically gutted, and popular anger is running real deep and hot.

    Nobody’s excusing the Palestinians, I don’t think — just saying that we or anybody else would probably feel very righteous in pursuing the same types of actions if we were in their position. It’s that empathy thing, that is, I know, so repugnant to righties. Of course, it’s hard for Americans to imagine ourselves in a similar situation, corralled by a foreign power, attacked wantonly at any sign of a “threat,” and unable to obtain even the basic resources needed to rebuild our infrastructure after such devastating attacks. We can’t even conceive of it — it could never happen to us — and since we feel it couldn’t, we assume that those in that situation must have brought it on themselves. Well, maybe they did, strictly speaking, but one would hope that Israel would be at least as noble-spirited as my 90+-lb. Labrador is when confronted by a toy Chihuahua that wants to bite her.

    A useful question in all this is what Israel wants. What would satisfy it to the point of lifting all the blockades and other restrictions and entering into a real peace treaty? Can anybody even hazard a guess?

  82. beerBoy says:

    MoD – “The Jews have lived in Israel since Moses’ time.”

    I am going to assume that you are not citing the Bible as a rationale for the right of return. (and that will save me the trouble of looking up the Orthodox rabbis who cite the Torah as evidence that Israel is an abomination before G_d)

    But….the Arabs have lived in what is now called Israel just as long……

  83. I have always held to supporting Israel, but I am not silly enough to presume innocence on her part in every matter. I want to know what’s actually happened and what is actually happening now. Wading through the swamp of A Little Learning is making it very hard TO know, but I won’t give up trying.

    I know many of you will disagree, but I personally wonder when people will wake up to the fact that education and enlightenment (whatever that is) are not going to solve the fundamental problem of man’s brokenness.

    There is nothing new under the sun. For all you progressives, just how much have we really progressed, fundamentally, in the last thousand years. Murder and mayem still happen; greed and power still seduce; wars still happen.

    There is an old hymn that says “People need the Lord.” I know it’s an old-fashioned idea, but it seems as true now as it ever did in my lifetime.

  84. MarksonofDarwin says:


    Thank you, and I’m smiling at the thought of me being the moderator here or anywhere else. I would be spending half my time clearing threads of my own comments!

    You’re right, without some measure of conflict on these threads, this would be a very dull echo chamber, with each of us saying the very same thing, but only in a different way. My weakness has always been sarcasm, which can easily be taken the wrong way. And then of course…I think I’m hilariously funny. No doubt that’s annoying too!


    There is unanimous agreement among historians that Israel has continuously been inhabited by Canaanites, Jews, and Arabs for I believe about 2,000 years.
    The easiest way to refer to the combination of the three is….Semite.

    I didn’t bring it up though.
    Why did you?

  85. larsman says:

    LC-BTW When Israel ceded control of Gaza, to the PA first, which ceded control over to Hamas(s), one of the first activities was the systematic destruction of
    schools, stores and other vital infrastructure, anything built by Israelis, by those same ones that are victimized not by Israel, but by Syria, Iran etc. because that method of “human shield” mentality makes useful idiot pawns of the perpetual victims. You need to discover Mediterranean history from pre-Abrahamic through the Caliphs and Grand Viziers, the 12-ers and the 5-ers ,the differences between Wahhabi, Sunni and Shia, and why they have something in common: that many of the 114 surahs of the koran do in fact advocate the destruction of not just Jews, but Christians and apparent agnostics like yourself…homework- up ok…

  86. larsman says:

    ps. What does Israel want? just what you do, to survive! What else, the address which belongs to her through God’s promise: Undivided Jerusalem. Or perhaps you would like to show us all how easy it would be to live in a closing vice…

  87. LuckyCharm says:

    lars, I don’t know of anything I would liken to a closing vice if not the Gaza Strip. And if there is a point to your ramblings, please let us in on it. It’s very easy, instead of constructing cogent counter-arguments, to simply say “Go study history,” but until we know what exactly in that history you mean to highlight, it’s just another diversionary tactic designed to make you look like you’re smarter than you are.

    Come back with a few sources, and maybe then I’ll take you seriously.

    P.S. Are you sure you’re not sozo? Or related to her?

  88. beerBoy says:

    Supporters of Israel who cite the Bible should scare you:

    “…then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy.” (Deuteronomy 7:1-2)

    “…do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the Lord your God has commanded you…” (Deuteronomy 20:16)

  89. lars, it seems to me you gave right good guidelines for homework, though LC seems to have missed that point.

    bBoy, proof-texting is the worst kind of debate-cheat. Didn’t think you’d stoop to it.

  90. LuckyCharm says:

    sozo, why would you want me to go hunting for proof-texts in the Koran, as lars has suggested, and yet complain when that same tactic is used with the Bible? Or is simple logic like that beneath such a self-described deep thinker as yourself?

  91. I’ve not had the privilege of meeting lars, LC and your simple logic, while not beneath me, does indeed escape me.

  92. LuckyCharm says:

    I’ll try to break it down for you, sozo:

    Proof-texting the Koran — “good guidelines for homework”

    Proof-texting the Bible — “the worst kind of debate-cheat”

    Right? Is that the way it is in your world? Perhaps you can explain the profoundly nuanced thinking that leads you to this disparity, beyond “I believe the Bible but I don’t believe the Koran, so it’s fair to proof-text the latter but not the former.”

  93. Gee LC, is the Koran the only thing lars suggested you study?

  94. And LC…I don’t see where lars lifted select phrases from the Qran as bBoy did. Do you know what proof-texting is?

  95. Here you go, I’ll do your homework for you:

    Proof-texting is the use of out-of-context quotes to support an argument. Most often, proof-texting is used in the quoting of religious texts, although scholarly texts are often used. The technique is somewhat related to and is often combined with sophistry, which uses garbled logic to support an illogical claim. Proof-texting is generally disdained by experts as an attempt to deceive a gullible audience, and is often considered a logical fallacy of authoritarian bias.

    And for the record, the God of Christians and Jews did command people to clean house from time to time, but bBoy doesn’t trouble himself with context here.

    For all you Christians out there who have turned Jesus into a Disney character, btw, on a par with Bambi (flamotte et. al) — you should probably consider the fact that Jesus always deferred to “the Father” so I’m thinkin’ you may have to concede that there ARE times when war is just.

  96. donjames says:

    sozo, outlaw proof texting and we lose bB and LC… hey…

  97. larsman says:

    Bb is using an out-of-context quotation from the 5th book of the Old Testament that refers to a specific time- limited activity for Joshua to initiate and complete. It does NOT say anything about continuing that war ad infinitum. Bb is being disingenuous here, using the “Oh yeah, well what about this way over there and way back then” which is an example of proof-texting void of context . Compare Surah 5 v. 51

  98. Where’d LC run off to? Perhaps it got a little hot in the kitchen?

    Something I’ve noticed about our lib/prog posters…they like to toss about the idea that conservatives are ill-informed, illiterate and generally a bunch of dumb hicks, but the minute someone calls them w/facts, or challenges them in the thread of their “logic” — or tosses a word their way that is beyond a 10th grade vocab quiz they evaporate into thin air.

  99. LuckyCharm says:

    sozo, no, lars didn’t actually cite any Koranic passages, just vaguely said that “many” “advocate the destruction of not just Jews, but Christians and apparent agnostics….” I have seen a number of the passages usually cited to support this accusation, and invariably they are taken wholly out of context. I actually have a copy of the Koran, and people who claim that Islam demands the extermination of all non-Muslims ought to read passages like this, from Surah 10:

    “And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Fir’aun (Pharoah) with his hosts followed them in oppression and enmity, till when drowning overtook him, he said: “I believe that none has the right to be worshipped but He (Allah) in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am one of the Muslims (those who submit to Allah’s Will). Now you believe while you refused to believe before and you were one of the Mufsidun (evildoers and the corrupters).”

    From Surah 43:

    “And when ‘Isa (Jesus) came with (Our) clear Proofs, he said, “I have come to you with Al-Hikmah (Prophethood), and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you differ. Therefore fear Allah and obey me. Verily, Allah! He is my Lord (God) and your Lord (God). So worship Him (Alone). This is the (only) Straight Path (i.e. Allah’s religion of true Islamic Monotheism).” But the sects from among themselves differed. So woe to those who do wrong [by ascribing things to 'Isa (Jesus) that are not true] from the torment of a painful Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)! (Next several verses describe paradise, golden cups and trays and fruit, etc.) We wronged them not, but they were the Zaliman (polytheists, wrongdoers)…. So leave them (alone) to speak nonsense and play until they meet the Day of theirs which they have been promised.”

    From Surah 60:

    “Perhaps Allah will make friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies. And Allah has power (over all things), and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of your religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zaliman (wrongdoers — those who disobey Allah).”

    And so on. Have you or lars ever actually perused the Koran yourselves?

    And no, lars also suggested I study history, but that is really only a very lazy attempt to discredit another’s argument without having to offer any actual counter-argument, and for someone who decries proof-texting (when it suits you), I’m surprised you would gloss over that one as some sort of brilliant debate-craft. If lars would like to offer specific historical justification for his argument, let him do it, but I’m not his research monkey, and “Go educate yourself” isn’t convincing to any serious thinker.

    dj, when and in what context have I engaged in proof-texting? You don’t even have to quote me, just refresh my memory as to the topic and some sense of the text I cited.

  100. beerBoy says:

    larsman……out of context?

    Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel.

    Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book “The King’s Torah” that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation.

  101. beerBoy says:

    btw…..the blockade is broken, after Israel’s piracy on the high seas, Egypt has permanently ended their cooperation in the blockade.

  102. beerBoy says:

    MarksonofDarwin says:
    June 7, 2010 at 8:38 pm
    I didn’t bring it up though.
    Why did you?

    I was responding to the following:
    MarksonofDarwin says:
    June 7, 2010 at 12:20 pm
    The Jews have lived in Israel since Moses’ time.

  103. donjames says:

    LuckyCharm says:
    “dj, when and in what context have I engaged in proof-texting? You don’t even have to quote me, just refresh my memory as to the topic and some sense of the text I cited.”

    You’re right, LC that statement was probably unfair and lacking specifics. Kindly accept my apology.

    Whereas bB frequently employs the tactic as defined, I would say you are more guilty of the use of non-sequiturs, bordering on non-biblical proof-texting, when you resort to the use of strawman fallacies, or links to support toe-hold positions – links that commonly are corrupted, digress, or flagrantly diverge from the topic of discussion.


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